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Lossless Audio Compression => Lossless / Other Codecs => Topic started by: duffin on 2007-03-05 08:57:29

Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: duffin on 2007-03-05 08:57:29
I admit I am a newbie in this area so please be gentle.

I want to re-rip my CD collection to a WAV grade library on my NAS.

I tested EAC, but I can't get the artist folder, Album Name to appear on my Audiotron. These tags do appear in the OS window. Track name appears OK. Same result when I look at the ripped library via WMP11.

I tested WMP 11 and there is a setting to rip CDs to WAV (lossless). WMP 11 gives me all the album art, name, directly names, etc. that I couldn't get out of EAC to WAV.

What am I losing ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 other than the scratch processing strength EAC offers?
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: abasher on 2007-03-05 11:44:30
Hi, and welcome duffin!

1) You want to rip to WAV - why?
Read the Wiki (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lossless) and see if Lossless wouldn't fit you better. WAV does not have support for tags.

2) EAC has support for auto-tagging from database. See Database>Get CD Information From>FreeDb

3) WMP11 will probably rip the tracks just as good as EAC, but there's no way of knowing. EAC gives you peace of mind, especially with AccurateRip (http://www.accuraterip.com).

Edit: Now I see that the Audiotron is a stand-alone media player. Not the freshest either, supporting only WAV, MP3 and WMA. As I mentioned earlier, WAV doesn't support tags, so it's not strange that the Audiotron doesn't show it. You would probably be best served to make MP3's of the albums you want to play with the Audiotron.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: Lyx on 2007-03-05 12:34:49
The main difference quality/speedwise between ripping with WMP or EAC is:

- WMP will not tell you if there were ripping-errors. Most of the time however there are none. Ripping will be fast.
- EAC will usually tell you if there were ripping-errors. Most of the time however there are none. Ripping will be slow.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: DARcode on 2007-03-05 14:37:32
[...]- EAC will usually tell you if there were ripping-errors. Most of the time however there are none. Ripping will be slow.
Burst with test?
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: Eli on 2007-03-05 14:46:04
Try dbpoweramp.com Reference R12 version and encode to something like FLAC, which is lossless but significantly smaller then WAV and supports tags.
In general ripping with dbpoweramp is BOTH fast and secure, the best of both worlds.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: Lyx on 2007-03-05 14:48:23
[...]- EAC will usually tell you if there were ripping-errors. Most of the time however there are none. Ripping will be slow.
Burst with test?

Still slower than pure burst.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: jcoalson on 2007-03-05 16:03:00
also, you can play FLAC on the audiotron with this: http://file-ext-map.sourceforge.net/ (http://file-ext-map.sourceforge.net/)
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: abasher on 2007-03-05 17:29:24
also, you can play FLAC on the audiotron with this: http://file-ext-map.sourceforge.net/ (http://file-ext-map.sourceforge.net/)

That's nice module, but for the Audiotron the only benefit is the lower storage requirements. The tagging benefit with be lost in the conversion.

Secondly, he mentions having a NAS. Although pretty much all NASes run Linux and Samba, not many let you fiddle easily with them. Basically just the KuroBox or something that runs SlugOS (Such as the Linksys NSLU2) lets you do that.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: greynol on 2007-03-05 18:47:56
Try dbpoweramp.com Reference R12 version and encode to something like FLAC, which is lossless but significantly smaller then WAV and supports tags.
In general ripping with dbpoweramp is BOTH fast and secure, the best of both worlds.
In general I don't know that dbpoweramp is any faster than EAC.

[...]- EAC will usually tell you if there were ripping-errors. Most of the time however there are none. Ripping will be slow.
Burst with test?
Still slower than pure burst.
Not by much if you're using AccurateRip instead of a test rip.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: duffin on 2007-03-05 19:13:05
Thanks for all the insight!

My requirements are to rip to WAV Lossless because it is the highest common format compatible with my hardware list:
I only want to rip the master library once and do not want to create a separate library for particular hardware.

FLAC would be great but doesn't work for iPod or completely for my other hardware as far as I can tell.

You may be wondering why WAV files to an iPod? My approach is to use a "checkin-/check-out" method to limit the amout of files I put on the iPod. This will force me to re-fresh the iPod with new tunes due to space limitations. Secondly, I want the lossless quality on the iPod since it integrates straight into the BMW X5 sound system.

Make sense?

So, it looks like WMP11 will hit all my needs for ripping, tagging and library management with WMP11; unless someone has an equally streamlined solution.

My ReadyNAS has 1TB so I have plenty of storage for music, pics and video.

My one grumble with WMP11 is that when I finish ripping a CD and put in the next one, WMP11 crashes. I am running XP Pro SP2 on a dual core 2 setup. Quirky!

BTW - Great forum!  I am a regular over at AVSForum and love the community help.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: twostar on 2007-03-05 19:45:47
i dont see the point of using lossless compression with a non-secure ripper like wmp11. people who go for lossless are really serious about having their cds archived without any degradation in quality at all. and with a non-secure ripper you never really know if the rip was error free.

my advice: rip with eac, dbpoweramp or foobar2000, then compress to apple lossless or wma lossless.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: jcoalson on 2007-03-05 20:01:33
My requirements are to rip to WAV Lossless because it is the highest common format compatible with my hardware list

gotcha.  although I think with a little work FLAC will also work in all those places.  it's supported natively by sonos (http://flac.sourceforge.net/links.html#review_sonos) which you probably already knew.  if you can run file-ext-map on the NAS it will support the AT with tags.  if you rockbox (http://www.rockbox.org/) the ipod it can play FLAC too but I don't know if you're tied to itunes.

Josh
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: spoon on 2007-03-05 21:34:29
>In general I don't know that dbpoweramp is any faster than EAC.

If you had a CD and one track in the middle was scratched, then dBpoweramp should be much faster than EAC (if the CD is in AccurateRip) as the other tracks would rip in 1 pass and verify, EAC rips each track twice at a minimum in secure mode (unless using c2). The scratched track might rip in the same time as EAC, but then again depending on how scratched it is dBpoweramp could finish the rip early with a match from AccurateRip (by cross checking data chunks from each pass). R12 was designed to be as fast as theoretically possible whilst being secure.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: greynol on 2007-03-05 23:15:07
>In general I don't know that dbpoweramp is any faster than EAC.

If you had a CD and one track in the middle was scratched, then dBpoweramp should be much faster than EAC (if the CD is in AccurateRip) as the other tracks would rip in 1 pass and verify, EAC rips each track twice at a minimum in secure mode (unless using c2). The scratched track might rip in the same time as EAC, but then again depending on how scratched it is dBpoweramp could finish the rip early with a match from AccurateRip (by cross checking data chunks from each pass). R12 was designed to be as fast as theoretically possible whilst being secure.

I very much like what you have done with your ripper though there is nothing stopping me from ripping all my tracks in burst mode, checking the accurate rip results and re-ripping the questionable tracks again using a secure mode.  This isn't much different than dBpowerAMP, correct?  Yes the track in the middle might be read an additional time depending on the settings used but this would hardly result in dBpowerAMP being "much" faster.

I also want to add that with my Plextor I don't use burst mode.  I actually use C2 and -usefua which gives me decent (albeit not perfect) security with burst speeds.  IOW, it is possible perform rereads to get accurate data without having to read everything twice; just like dBpowerAMP when ultra-secure passes are disabled (not withstanding the use of C2 pointers during re-reads which is more a comment on dBpowerAMP's superior accuracy rather than on speed).  But remember:  once ultra-secure passes are disabled, dBpowerAMP isn't any better at discovering errors than EAC when C2 pointers are being used.

Point taken about cross checking data from each pass.  The other great thing about dBpowerAMP over EAC is that all this ripping checking and reripping is done automatically.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: pdq on 2007-03-05 23:21:48
I tested EAC, but I can't get the artist folder, Album Name to appear on my Audiotron. These tags do appear in the OS window. Track name appears OK. Same result when I look at the ripped library via WMP11.


DbPoweramp R12 will properly rip and tag WAV files so that the tags can be read by your Audiotron.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: duffin on 2007-03-06 06:17:30
Well, you all convinced me to use dBpoweramp CD Ripper over WMP11.

I downloaded the free version here (http://www.download.com/dBpoweramp-Music-Converter/3000-2140-10042534.html?part=dl-dBpoweram&subj=dl&tag=button) and did some testing and everything worked to my satisfaction.

Then I bought the package here (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc-power-register.htm), but got a different Ripper that is more basic. What's up with that?

Went back to the free version, I guess. It does tags, but I couldn't get album art to appear. Suggestions?

Did I miss the setting to have the tray automatically eject after files are ripped?

Also, in the future, how do I plug in the FLAC encoder? Is that here (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/codec-central-flac.htm)?

Is there a way to batch convert in the future my whole library to FLAC?

Thanks all for being so helpful to a newbie!
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: spoon on 2007-03-06 17:32:43
This page details differences in Versions:

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/db-versions.htm (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/db-versions.htm)

Which options are missing? Auto Eject is in all versions, should be in Options.

To plug in Flac, just run the installer, it auto adds its self.

There is a Batch Converter, select your main folder and batch convert everything to FLAC.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: duffin on 2007-03-06 18:30:37
Thanks Spoon for confirming the FLAC plug in and the functionality of the Batch Converter.

The application downloading and suites are a bit confusing to a person who never heard of dBpoweramp before.

I was directled earlier in the thread to download the dBpoweramp which I did from the  download link (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm) on the dbpoweramp.com site. It redirected me to a cNet site here (http://www.download.com/dBpoweramp-Music-Converter/3000-2140-10042534.html?part=dl-dBpoweram&subj=dl&tag=button).

The dMC-r12 install file contained dBpoweramp CD Ripper which I tested and liked and CD dBpoweramp Music Converter.

I then unintsalled all the files that came with dMC-r12.

I then went back to the dbpoweramp.com site to the registration page (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc-power-register.htm) to purchase the Power Pack & MP3 license. I then was given permission to download the install file dBpowerAMPCDWriter-Registered-r2-FL.

Now I can't get the CD Ripper app to appear. Hummmm...

BTW - Post #5 (http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?t=12018) in the R12 Support FAQ solved the CD cover art issue for the CD Ripper trial version.

When I check my registration status under dBpoweramp Configuration it shows my R12 versions as unregistered even though I bought it. Can you direct me to the proper forum area to resolve this?
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: spoon on 2007-03-06 21:13:55
CD Writer is currently R11.5 as it is waiting to be updated to be compatible with R12, drop me an email please and include the order number:

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/email.htm (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/email.htm)
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: duffin on 2007-03-06 21:31:05
CD Writer is currently R11.5 as it is waiting to be updated to be compatible with R12, drop me an email please and include the order number:

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/email.htm (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/email.htm)


Spoon, thanks for your personal assistance.

When I downloaded the purchased install file (dBpowerAMPCDWriter-Registered-r2-FL), it does not include CD Ripper.

I did get CD Ripper as part of the trial file I downloaded from the CNET site (dMC-r12), but when I uninstalled it before installing the purchased version (dBpowerAMPCDWriter-Registered-r2-FL), I didn’t get CD Ripper back with the purchased bundle.

Is CD Ripper R12 only available through the trial version on the CNET download site? How do I pay for it or is it in BETA?

I thought I was paying for the latest, full version of the CD Ripper when I bought the bundle. The other apps don’t interest me for the moment since I am trying to create a library for an Audiotron and Sonos.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: spoon on 2007-03-07 09:28:02
CD Writer does contain the CD Ripper (it is called Audio CD Input in that older version), just not the latest.

I have emailed the latest version of R12.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: duffin on 2007-03-07 15:46:19
CD Writer does contain the CD Ripper (it is called Audio CD Input in that older version), just not the latest.

I have emailed the latest version of R12.


Why am I getting the older version from the purchase links?

Someone needs to revamp how these download packages are presented, found, etc. I followed the directions exactly on the website. If they didn't work for me, there must be hundreds of other lost opportunities out there. I'd rather support you guys, but this experience makes it hard.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: spoon on 2007-03-07 17:52:48
Because R12 of Music Converter, stops CD Writer from working (as it relies on R11.5). CD Writer is being updated ASAP to clear this issue.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: astroboy on 2007-03-30 06:35:15
I am very skeptical of any suggestions that EAC makes any difference vs using WMP11 and a good cd writer such as those from LiteOn. I am skeptical because I have found no evidence comparing EAC ripping with WMP or any other ripping, despite the ease with which this could be done.

I will be using WMP11 to rip to WAV.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: greynol on 2007-03-30 07:28:37
I am skeptical because I have found no evidence comparing EAC ripping with WMP or any other ripping, despite the ease with which this could be done.

...and I'm guessing you're probably not interested in finding any evidence to support your skepticism either.

Since you said it's easy, how you think one should go about conducting a test to show that WMP is capable of ripping with the same degree of accuracy as EAC?
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: astroboy on 2007-03-30 12:17:21
I am skeptical because I have found no evidence comparing EAC ripping with WMP or any other ripping, despite the ease with which this could be done.

...and I'm guessing you're probably not interested in finding any evidence to support your skepticism either.

Since you said it's easy, how you think one should go about conducting a test to show that WMP is capable of ripping with the same degree of accuracy as EAC?

What gives you the impression I am not interested in finding any evidence to support my skepticism? That was a very emotive/defensive thing to say. That is the kind of thing I expect from forums though: emotions over evidence.

It is easy to determine if EAC is necessary because you can rip a standard collection of 200 cds with WMP, EAC, and some other program and compare how many times they are consistent. Or maybe use AccurateRip or something like that to see how many times WMP gets it wrong, then see if EAC can make it right or not with the same CD.

My experience has taught me that the more paranoid you are, the more complexity you add to the situation, the more likely that things will go wrong. It has also taught me that internet forums are nothing more than the vocal minority, and the programs with small marketshare will always be given as recommendations, while everything from Microsoft will be given harsh criticism, with no evidence to support any of the arguments, and often with made-up garbage, such as how kmixer supposedly eats babies.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: duffin on 2007-03-30 15:24:54
I am skeptical because I have found no evidence comparing EAC ripping with WMP or any other ripping, despite the ease with which this could be done.

...and I'm guessing you're probably not interested in finding any evidence to support your skepticism either.

Since you said it's easy, how you think one should go about conducting a test to show that WMP is capable of ripping with the same degree of accuracy as EAC?


When someone says they are skeptical, they are asking to be shown the supporting evidence. So, yes, he and I are all ears to any evidence.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: greynol on 2007-03-30 18:44:31
What gives you the impression I am not interested in finding any evidence to support my skepticism? That was a very emotive/defensive thing to say.
It was a rhetorical question.  Of course you're interested in finding evidence to justify your belief.  Since you're working from your belief, is not having any evidence any less compelling than the situation where none existed?  Based on your attitude, it seems that your answer would be no.

It is easy to determine if EAC is necessary because you can rip a standard collection of 200 cds with WMP, EAC, and some other program and compare how many times they are consistent. Or maybe use AccurateRip or something like that to see how many times WMP gets it wrong, then see if EAC can make it right or not with the same CD.
So what's stopping you from doing this?

Or do you prefer taking an even easier route and do nothing but say you're skeptical?

Do you honestly think that a more complicated ripping algorithm than simple burst ripping like the one that's present in EAC is just there for show?  Do you honestly think that it provides no benefit?
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: spoon on 2007-03-30 19:53:55
Put it this way, if WMP had accuraterip abilities there would be many unhappy people getting rips with reported errors, where as now WMP reports nothing, so ignorance is bliss.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: greynol on 2007-03-31 20:51:47
Well, I decided to run a test in order to give our skeptics some evidence.

It was a little problematic since WMP is incapable of correctly ripping discs that start with an extended pregap not to mention that regardless of the existence of an extended pregap, they omit the last frame of data from the last track.  I noticed this while trying to get the output from EAC synchronized with the output from WMP in order to compare the rips by checksum.  So much for easy.

The disc that I used has an extended pregap of 32 frames.  As a consequence, every track ripped from this disc using WMP began 32 frames early and the final track was cut short by 33 frames.  You guys can just forget about creating bitwise identical copies using WMP.   

The purpose of this test wasn't to uncover WMP's inability rip tracks at the correct location in certain circumstances or its inability to preserve the proper length of the last track in all circumstances.  Instead it was to show that EAC can rip discs correctly that WMP can't by providing evidence, any evidence.

First, I ripped a single-file image of the disc and created the appropriate cue sheet using EAC.  My drive was configured without a read offset correction.  I then ripped the same disc using WMP as individual tracks.  From there I combined all the individual tracks ripped using WMP into a single wave file using foobar2000.  I then appended the last 33 frames of the EAC image to the end of the newly-created WMP image in order to compensate for WMP's shortcoming that I mentioned earlier.  Finally, using the CUE sheet that EAC created, I mounted each image to a virtual drive that is offset corrected in order to let AccurateRip verify the results.

As it turns out, all the tracks tested from the EAC image were accurate.  All but one of the tracks tested from the WMP image were accurate.  I will include data for two tracks from each image to illustrate where they are the same and where they are different.

From the EAC image:
Code: [Select]
EAC extraction logfile from 31. March 2007, 12:41 for CD
Dave Matthews Band / Under the Table and Dreaming

Used drive  : AXV    CD/DVD-ROM  Adapter: 4  ID: 0
Read mode  : Burst
Read offset correction : 30

Track 10
    Filename F:\Dave Matthews Band\Under the Table and Dreaming\10 - Warehouse.wav

    Peak level 99.8 %
    Test CRC 056874C0
    Copy OK

Track 11
    Filename F:\Dave Matthews Band\Under the Table and Dreaming\11 - Pay for What You Get.wav

    Peak level 99.8 %
    Test CRC 4AB5F428
    Copy OK

------------------------------------------------------------

Track Ripping Status [Disc ID: 0072d79b-5e0ed322]

 10 Accurately Ripped    (confidence 8)    [6eba055a]
 11 Accurately Ripped    (confidence 8)    [04f4eeb9]

_______________________

All Tracks Accurately Ripped.

From the WMP image:
Code: [Select]
EAC extraction logfile from 31. March 2007, 12:41 for CD
Dave Matthews Band / Under the Table and Dreaming

Used drive  : AXV    CD/DVD-ROM  Adapter: 4  ID: 0
Read mode  : Burst
Read offset correction : 30

Track 10
    Filename F:\Dave Matthews Band\Under the Table and Dreaming\10 - Warehouse.wav

    Peak level 99.8 %
    Test CRC 056874C0
    Copy OK

Track 11
    Filename F:\Dave Matthews Band\Under the Table and Dreaming\11 - Pay for What You Get.wav

    Peak level 99.8 %
    Test CRC 1D2022EC
    Copy OK

------------------------------------------------------------

Track Ripping Status [Disc ID: 0072d79b-5e0ed322]

 10 Accurately Ripped    (confidence 8)    [6eba055a]
 11 ** Rip not accurate **  (confidence 8)    [04f4eeb9] [df2d3834]

_______________________

Track(s) Accurately Ripped: 1
**** Track(s) Not Ripped Accurately: 1 ****
Track(s) Not in Database: 0

So there you have it, evidence of ripping differences between EAC and WMP.  The drive I used, BTW, is a PX-716A by Plextor.  I think it qualifies as "a good cd writer." 
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: astroboy on 2007-04-01 04:56:33
Well, I decided to run a test in order to give our skeptics some evidence.


Thank you for that  I also got some advice from "high above" that suggested using EAC also. I might go the EAC/FLAC/Foobar route. Or just WAV instead of bothering with FLAC. Is there any reason I need to use FLAC apart from saving space and being able to add more tags?
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: abasher on 2007-04-01 09:43:27
Thank you for that  I also got some advice from "high above" that suggested using EAC also. I might go the EAC/FLAC/Foobar route. Or just WAV instead of bothering with FLAC. Is there any reason I need to use FLAC apart from saving space and being able to add more tags?

FLAC files also have error-detection mechanisms.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: JoyWelsh on 2008-10-09 20:23:56
Because R12 of Music Converter, stops CD Writer from working (as it relies on R11.5). CD Writer is being updated ASAP to clear this issue.



Hi I am also a newbie and have been goin round the mulberry bush trying to find a CD ripper which will also convert to WAV lossless.

Got winamp to begin with, used the FLAC decoder then found out I needed to set gain replay for tracks, did  this and the tracks still played at different volumes. Not sure if I need to dump all and start rip again with the gain set in first place?

However, then I heard that there is better software than winamp so I downloaded WMP11 and realized after using, it does not support tags for WAV lossless.

More searching led me to reading this thead and here to the dppowerampR12 Version. I need quality above everthing as I will be using PA to play backing tracks for band via laptop.  With quality I also require a software that will enable me to adjust the volume (replay gain) for each track, rather than rely on any auto adjust. Is this something the DPPowerampR12 can enable me to do? 

Much appreciate any help from members JO
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: spoon on 2008-10-09 20:30:26
R12 has been superceeded by R13 now, you can give it a try for 21 days.
Title: Ripping WAV (lossless) with WMP11 - near EAC quality?
Post by: Roseval on 2008-10-09 20:42:47
Duffin,
You might try WMP with error correction on: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/WMP/...rCorrection.htm (http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/WMP/ErrorCorrection.htm)
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