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CD-R and Audio Hardware => CD Hardware/Software => Topic started by: BoraBora on 2005-11-06 17:21:43

Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-06 17:21:43
I tried yesterday to extract as image + cue sheet this various artists CD: "Songs in the Key of X". Before index 01 are two hidden tracks. Track 01 starts at 09:12:25. My drive is a brand new Plextor 740A (the BenQ one).

In EAC, for this kind of job, you have a choice between extracting an image or use the "copy range" command. I ripped as an image and the file lenght was correct. Problem is... I have 9'25'' of silence before the 1rst track. No music.

To be absolutely sure this has nothing to do with overreading ability, I checked the option (I left it unchecked because the 740A can overread in lead-in, but not in lead-out). New rip, same result. Only silence. Then I tried to uncheck the "Fill up missing offset samples with silence". I know... there's absolutely no reason this should interact. But I had to try. Result: same thing. Only silence.

Note: during each rip, the 1rst row of red squares was lit, very quickly and without stopping during these dreaded first 9'25''. Then no errors at all for the rest of the rip.

I tried the PTP. Since you can't extract as an image with the standard version, I downloaded the trial version of the infamous Plextools Pro XL. Well... I had a fatal error as soon as PTP did the gap detection.

Today, I dug out my Plextor 712A and tried again. No more error correction in EAC during the first 9'25'' and I had music instead of silence, at last! Both EAC and the PTP XL did a fine job. So I guess my question is:

Is the ability to correctly rip music before the index 01 hardware-based? If so, what feature is it? Where do we look for in the specs before buying a drive?

Can the drive rip between absolute time 00:00:02:00 and Track 01 Index 01? (mostly useful for hidden songs at the beginning)

* BCD E520C: YES (Cosmo)

* LG 8526B: NO (NRAninja)
* LG-Hitachi HL-DT-STCD-RW GCE8487B: YES (madorangepanda)

* Lite-On LTR-52246S: NO (Cosmo)
* Lite-On LTR-52327S: NO (Drenholm)
* Lite-On SOHW-832S: NO (Synthetic Soul)
* Lite-On SOHW-1673S: NO (langoustator)

* Mitsumi CR-4804TE: YES (Egor)

* NEC ND-3520: NO (.halverhahn)
* NEC ND-3520AW: NO (Egor)

* Pioneer DVR-110D: YES (Egor)

* Plextor PX-40TS: YES (.halverhahn)
* Plextor PX-116A2: YES (langoustator)
* Plextor PX-712A: YES (BoraBora)
* Plextor PX-740A: NO (BoraBora)
* Plextor PX-W5224A: YES (Synthetic Soul)

* QSI SBW-241: YES (southisup)

* Samsung SD-616E: NO (Synthetic Soul)
* Samsung SM-332B: NO (Egor)

* Sony DDU1615: YES (madorangepanda)
* Sony CRX830E: YES (NRAninja)

* TEAC DV-516G: YES (.halverhahn)

* Toshiba SD-R1202: NO (Egor)
* Toshiba SD-M1502: NO (Synthetic Soul)
* Toshiba SD-R5112: NO (Egor)
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: NRAninja on 2005-11-06 18:58:28
I have an LG 8526B 52x CDRW that shows up in EAC as HL-DT-STCD-RW GCE-8526B. The EXACT same thing happened to me a week ago when I tried to rip Blind Melon - Soup with a hidden track. I tried my Sony 24x cdrw laptop drive which I think is just a rebranded LiteOn and all was well. I guess either your drive can do it or it can't.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-06 22:14:25
Quote
I have an LG 8526B 52x CDRW that shows up in EAC as HL-DT-STCD-RW GCE-8526B. The EXACT same thing happened to me a week ago when I tried to rip Blind Melon - Soup with a hidden track. I tried my Sony 24x cdrw laptop drive which I think is just a rebranded LiteOn and all was well.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one. 
Quote
I guess either your drive can do it or it can't.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340072"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Weird, isn't it? I mean... optical drives have been tested for DAE for years now. Cache or not cache, overrreading or not, offset etc. Hundreds of pages were written on the best way to have a bit exact copy. I can't believe such a feature could have been overlooked. 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: dreamliner77 on 2005-11-07 06:56:42
Never knew there was a hidden track in the pregap of Soup.  Guess I'll have to go dig out the cd now.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Duble0Syx on 2005-11-07 07:08:02
With EAC you can copy the pregap tracks if you use the setting "Append Gaps to Next Track" or just copy"index based".  Unfortunetaly this does no good for image ripping or  ripping with normal gap settings.  I've requested many times an option to rip track 1 pregaps as track 00 and be properly appended in the cuesheets while still using the normal gap method.  Still not there though.  My only suggestion is to find the topic on the EAC forums and voice you opinion too.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Drenholm on 2005-11-07 07:44:48
I get the same error detection and silence results with you too (Less Than Jake - Losing Streak).

I guess it is hardware dependent. But could someone in the know clarify if it's  a physical inability to read this area or if the drive just 'thinks' it's out of bounds because of the TOC and so doesn't even try? Basically, how does overreading work please?
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 09:56:10
Quote
With EAC you can copy the pregap tracks if you use the setting "Append Gaps to Next Track" or just copy"index based".  Unfortunetaly this does no good for image ripping or  ripping with normal gap settings.  I've requested many times an option to rip track 1 pregaps as track 00 and be properly appended in the cuesheets while still using the normal gap method.  Still not there though.  My only suggestion is to find the topic on the EAC forums and voice you opinion too.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340174"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Actually, though I understand your concern et agee with you, this is not really the problem exposed here. EAC can extract the pregap with the default setting, minus the first two seconds. I can live with that. I don't have a problem with EAC or even the Plextools Pro, I have a problem with some drives.

Quote
I get the same error detection and silence results with you too (Less Than Jake - Losing Streak).

I guess it is hardware dependent. But could someone in the know clarify if it's  a physical inability to read this area or if the drive just 'thinks' it's out of bounds because of the TOC and so doesn't even try? Basically, how does overreading work please?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340175"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What is your drive model? I'm going to list them in the first post. 

I'm thinking more and more of a firmware feature. The ability to "rewind" in the pregap could be firmware-based, isn't it? Or am I silly?
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Squeller on 2005-11-07 11:08:41
Quote
I guess it is hardware dependent. But could someone in the know clarify if it's  a physical inability to read this area or if the drive just 'thinks' it's out of bounds because of the TOC and so doesn't even try? Basically, how does overreading work please?

I may be wrong, but the thing about the hidden track is, thats what I thought, simple: They simply put the cd start marker at a later position than the real cd start. So I guess there should be no technical reason not to read this.
But I may be wrong
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 11:13:41
Quote
I may be wrong, but the thing about the hidden track is, thats what I thought, simple: They simply put the cd start marker at a later position than the real cd start. So I guess there should be no technical reason not to read this.

Exactly. That's why I'm thinking of a firmware limitation. 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Pio2001 on 2005-11-07 12:03:44
Quote
I left it unchecked because the 740A can overread in lead-in, but not in lead-out[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340058"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


You've just proven that this drive can't overread into lead-in 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 12:46:37
Quote
You've just proven that this drive can't overread into lead-in 
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=340198")

So this is related to the overreading feature only? That's weird, because in [a href="http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Print.aspx?ArticleId=14345]this test[/url], the 740A is supposed to overread into lead-in:

(http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Sources/Plextor_PX-740A/Images/reading_CD/advance_DAE.png)

That's why I thought this had nothing to do with overreading. Thre's another inconsistency: the rip is fine with the 712A and the "Overread into lead-in and lead-out" option unchecked.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2005-11-07 13:14:02
I've asked for this question to be cleared up before (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=37266&view=findpost&p=328782).  Hopefully Pio2001 will return and enlighten us.

I bought a Plextor PX-W5224A specifically to rip these tracks.  I bought it as it can over-read the lead-in, and it appeared to me that this was the requirement.

If you are compiling a list, my Samsung SD-616E at work managed to rip Bloc Party's Silent Alarm (whereas my Lite-On SOHW-832S and Toshiba SD-M1502(?) wouldn't even get past gap detection) but the INDEX 00 track was silence.

MY Plextor is working well for the role.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Alex B on 2005-11-07 13:14:37
If I have understood correctly, when the read offset correction is set in EAC to read from lead-in area it just adjusts the physical starting point a bit.


For example:

This is a two-track disc without hidden tracks:
Code: [Select]
FILE "disc image.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
  INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
  INDEX 01 50:00:00


This two-track disc has indentical audio content, but the disc starts with a huge 45-minute hidden track.
Code: [Select]
FILE "disc image.wav" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
  INDEX 00 00:00:00
  INDEX 01 45:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
  INDEX 01 50:00:00


The difference between these two discs is only in the table of contents, not in the physical location on the disc.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 13:51:44
Quote
I bought a Plextor PX-W5224A specifically to rip these tracks.  I bought it as it can over-read the lead-in, and it appeared to me that this was the requirement.

If you are compiling a list, my Samsung SD-616E at work managed to rip Bloc Party's Silent Alarm (whereas my Lite-On SOHW-832S and Toshiba SD-M1502(?) wouldn't even get past gap detection) but the INDEX 00 track was silence.

MY Plextor is working well for the role.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340217"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

According to www.daefeatures.co.uk, the Samsung can overread into lead-in, just like my PX-740A. And both are producing silence instead of sound.  According to CD Speed, the Lite-On SOHW-832S can overread both in lead-in and lead-out:

Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: NRAninja on 2005-11-07 14:34:50
On a normal disc, the EAC overread test says the LG 8526B can overread into lead in and lead out, but if I try the test on a hidden pregap disc, the overread test says overread into lead out only 

EAC says the Sony CRX830E can overread into lead in and hidden pregaps rip fine.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 15:01:12
Quote
On a normal disc, the EAC overread test says the LG 8526B can overread into lead in and lead out, but if I try the test on a hidden pregap disc, the overread test says overread into lead out only  

EAC says the Sony CRX830E can overread into lead in and hidden pregaps rip fine.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340241"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks. I updated the list in the first post. Your test with the LG 8526B and the contradictory statements in EAC are weird. Could all the overreading detection tests be flawed and inaccurate, be it CDSpeed or EAC? Now that's a disturbing idea. 

Edit: maybe a stupid idea. Could the overreading ability be limited with some drives to x samples and no more? That could explain the 1rst detection in EAC producing a positive result (yes, this drive can overread in the lead-in...), then a negative one with a hidden song (... but not this far, silly  ).
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2005-11-07 15:22:34
Quote
Edit: maybe a stupid idea. Could the overreading ability be limited with some drives to x samples and no more? That could explain the 1rst detection in EAC producing a positive result (yes, this drive can overread in the lead-in...), then a negative one with a hidden song (... but not this far, silly   ).
I was actually going to reply with this earlier.

I did the CD Speed test on my Lite-On a while back and although the report may say that it can read lead-in I believe the number of samples was small - equivalent to 1-2 seconds or so.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 17:12:15
Quote
I was actually going to reply with this earlier.

I did the CD Speed test on my Lite-On a while back and although the report may say that it can read lead-in I believe the number of samples was small - equivalent to 1-2 seconds or so.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340254"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We may be on the right track, there. 

Now how do we know how much samples in the lead-in can a drive overread? The various DAE databases are useless. That's something nobody ever cared to consider, TMHK. 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2005-11-07 17:26:27
I'll try to get figures from CDSpeed for my Lite-On and Plextor in the next few hours.  That may be interesting - to see how large the difference is.

(The Plextor replaced the Toshiba.)
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 17:43:07
Quote
I'll try to get figures from CDSpeed for my Lite-On and Plextor in the next few hours.  That may be interesting - to see how large the difference is.

(The Plextor replaced the Toshiba.)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340275"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Great!

I just ran CDSpeed on my 712A but no test of overreading was done. I guess you have to do the "Advanced DAE quality test" which requires burning a CD?
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Alex B on 2005-11-07 18:04:06
I searched for information and it seems that all audio data is always physically located after the lead-in area, including the data in the pregap before the first track.

Some links:

http://www.pcnineoneone.com/howto/cdburnadv2.html (http://www.pcnineoneone.com/howto/cdburnadv2.html)
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=49264 (http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=49264)
http://www.samsungodd.com/eng/Information/...&no=8&type_no=3 (http://www.samsungodd.com/eng/Information/ODDTech/ODDTech.asp?FunctionValue=view&no=8&type_no=3)
http://www.digitalprosound.com/Features/2000/Sept/RecCD.htm (http://www.digitalprosound.com/Features/2000/Sept/RecCD.htm)
http://www.cinram.com/cd/tech/cdenhanced.pdf (http://www.cinram.com/cd/tech/cdenhanced.pdf)
http://www.plextor.com/english/news/glossary.html (http://www.plextor.com/english/news/glossary.html)
http://mlug.missouri.edu/~rjudd/projects/c...FAQ.html#[3-36] (http://mlug.missouri.edu/~rjudd/projects/cd-recordableFAQ/cd-recordableFAQ.html#%5b3-36%5d)


I was curious enough to test how this works. I burned a test CD-RW with a hidden track. I used a modified cue sheet and a standard wave file. The CD works fine. The hidden track can be accessed by rewinding on my stand-alone player and also EAC can rip correct disc image wave & cue files that contain the hidden track area. I used LG's HL-DT-STRW/DVD GCC-4080B drive and EAC v.0.95b3 for burning and ripping.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Cosmo on 2005-11-07 18:58:17
My Lite-On LTR-52246S is reported as being able to read into the lead-in (though I suppose this could be false), but ripping a hidden track with it returns silence and EAC reports a "timing problem" when reading Index 00. The log reports "Suspicious position 0:00:00 - 0:02:06" ... and Index 01 begins at 0:02:08.15

My BCD E520C CD-ROM overreads into lead-in/out, and can rip it fine.

(tested with Blind Melon - Soup)
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Pio2001 on 2005-11-07 19:27:28
The detection of the ability to read into lead-in must be based on read errors only.
The program asks the drive to read before track 1. If the drive returns a read error, the program says "this drive can't overread", and if the drive returns music, or silence, the program says "this drive can overread into lead-in".
The program is not supposed to know if the audio before track one is actually silent or not !

In fact the CD layout is like this :

Lead-in : can't be played back by any drive, but nonetheless features some audio frames, as a buffer.
At the end of the lead-in, the audio track begins. This point is Track 01 Index 00, and the absolut time is 00:00:00:00.
Then, there is a compulsory pregap, that is two seconds long. The end of this pregap is only materialized by the numbering of the audio sectors. The absolute time is then 00:00:02:00, and the audio sector is number 0.
From this point, CD Players can playback (as long as you rewind first in order to reach it), and DAE programs can extract "by range" (from sector 0 to sector xxxx ; There are 75 sectors in one second).
Then, after a possible hidden track, the track 1 begins. This point is Track 01 Index 01. The absolute time and sector number can be as high as we want. From this point, CD Players automatically start the CD playback, and DAE programs extract "by track".

Some drives can't read before track 01 index 01.
Some drives can, but can't overread into "lead-in". Which is a wrong statement, because it actually means that they can't read the compulsory pregap, or in other words, can't read negative audio sectors (from -150 to -1).
Some drives can read all along from Track 00 Index 00 (sector -150, Absolute time 00:00:00:00). They may even overread into the actual lead-in if you tweak the registry.

In some cases, you are forced to overread into the pregap. In the two CD with hidden tracks that I've got the audio actually started in the pregap, and it was not possible to get the beginning "by range", or "index based". The extraction starts 2 seconds too late. (they are Elegia - From within, and a CD by Juantrip whose title I forgot).
There is also a problem with Mike Oldfield - Discovery, but this one has no hidden track. It is the track 1 that begins too early ! And no way to rewind on the CD Player, not to get the missing part "by range".
The solution is to set the read offset correction to a very low value. But since EAC doesn't accept values low enough, it must be done directly in Windows registry, in the EAC setup. Then start EAC, and rip without displaying the drive options.
You can then set -88200 as read offset correction, if you want to get the whole pregap "by range". Asking for the range 0/150 will actually read the range -150/-1
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Alex B on 2005-11-07 19:48:38
Could there be some kind of difference between the factory made hidden tracks and the ones made with EAC?

My original CUE file was this (I chose this CD single because it was the smallest disc image rip in my archive):

Code: [Select]
PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
TITLE "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year"
FILE "Jimi Hendrix - Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Little Drummer Boy/Silent Night/Auld Lang Syne"
    PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Three Little Bears"
    PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
    INDEX 00 04:28:37
    INDEX 01 04:29:65
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    TITLE "Little Drummer Boy/Silent Night/Auld Lang Syne (Extended Version)"
    PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
    INDEX 00 08:42:63
    INDEX 01 08:43:70
 

I made the hidden track CD with this cue:

Code: [Select]
PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
TITLE "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year"
FILE "Jimi Hendrix - Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.wav" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    TITLE "Hidden Track & Three Little Bears"
    PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
    INDEX 00 00:00:00
    INDEX 01 04:29:65
  TRACK 02 AUDIO
    TITLE "Little Drummer Boy/Silent Night/Auld Lang Syne (Extended Version)"
    PERFORMER "Jimi Hendrix"
    INDEX 00 08:42:63
    INDEX 01 08:43:70
 

I have the Overread into Lead-in and Lead-out option unselected in EAC. (LG 4080B can read into the lead-in, but not into the lead-out. The correct read sample offset correction value is only +6. However, even that small value would need a read into lead-out capability, so I have kept the overread option disabled and filled the missing offset samples with silence instead.)
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2005-11-07 19:56:16
Quote
I just ran CDSpeed on my 712A but no test of overreading was done. I guess you have to do the "Advanced DAE quality test" which requires burning a CD?
Yes.  You create the test CD and then run the test (Extra > Advanced DAE Quality Test).

Quote
I'll try to get figures from CDSpeed for my Lite-On and Plextor in the next few hours.  That may be interesting - to see how large the difference is.

Lite-On SOHW-832S
Drive can read max. 139 sectors (-00:01.64) from the Lead-in
Drive can read max. 6749 sectors (-01:29.74) from the Lead-out

Plextor PX-W5224A
Drive can read max. 75 sectors (-00:01.00) from the Lead-in
Drive can read max. 6755 sectors (-01:30.05) from the Lead-out

Curious results.  Strangely enough, CD-DVD Speed also reported the offset of the Plextor as 0 bytes/samples.  I may need to try the Lite-On with a hidden track again to double-check.

Thanks a lot to Pio2001 for the comprehensive response.  I'm hoping that I may even be able to understand some of it with a clear head tomorrow morning.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 20:10:42
Quote
The detection of the ability to read into lead-in must be based on read errors only.
The program asks the drive to read before track 1. If the drive returns a read error, the program says "this drive can't overread", and if the drive returns music, or silence, the program says "this drive can overread into lead-in".
The program is not supposed to know if the audio before track one is actually silent or not !

Maybe you misunderstood me. When I write "Can rip index 00 but only silence", I mean: "seems to do the job, but actually rips only silence instead of music".

I read your post twice and I think I understand what you say, but I'm still not clear on the main point:

Quote
Some drives can't read before track 01 index 01.
Some drives can, but can't overread into "lead-in". Which is a wrong statement, because it actually means that they can't read the compulsory pregap, or in other words, can't read negative audio sectors (from -150 to -1).
Some drives can read all along from Track 00 Index 00 (sector -150, Absolute time 00:00:00:00). They may even overread into the actual lead-in if you tweak the registry.


So far, we have listed in this topic 3 types of ripping ability with a hidden track (ie: an entire song, not 2 seconds of music):

1 - The drive can't rip it at all.
2 - The drive can rip it (or seems to), but there's only silence instead of music.
3 - The drive properly rips the music.

Which drive in your list could produce the second type of ripping, ie producing silence instead of ripping music? Those which can't read before track 01 index 01? If so, why  the difference with those which can't rip it at all? 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Cosmo on 2005-11-07 21:13:41
Why couldn't a particular drive read Track 01 Index 00 - as long as the data is in the audio session and not the lead-in area?

Is such a Track 01 Index 00 pregap somehow represented in the TOC?
(the only TOC readout i'm able to get doesn't indicate pregaps, so I wonder if the drive firmware simply refuses to acknowledge any data prior to the Index 01 starting point...)
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Pio2001 on 2005-11-07 21:40:44
Quote
Which drive in your list could produce the second type of ripping, ie producing silence instead of ripping music? Those which can't read before track 01 index 01? If so, why  the difference with those which can't rip it at all? 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340305"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I consider drives ripping silence instead of music as unable to read the hidden track. Thus for me, they can't read before track 01 index 01.
About the difference between reading silence and not reading, ask the drive designer
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Alex B on 2005-11-07 21:55:05
Do the drives have integrated logic for reading and interpreting the TOC? Do the software components like EAC and the OS level driver just kindly ask the drive to do the job instead of giving the drive direct orders like: go to the absolute position xxx and start reading? I mean: Can this be depended on the software used?

[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%']Edit: Oops, It wasn't ready... [/span]
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-07 22:50:46
Quote
Lite-On SOHW-832S
Drive can read max. 139 sectors (-00:01.64) from the Lead-in
Drive can read max. 6749 sectors (-01:29.74) from the Lead-out

Plextor PX-W5224A
Drive can read max. 75 sectors (-00:01.00) from the Lead-in
Drive can read max. 6755 sectors (-01:30.05) from the Lead-out

Mine:

Plextor PX-712A
Drive can read max. 75 sectors (-00:01.00) from the Lead-in
Drive can read max. 6755 sectors (-01:30.05) from the Lead-out

Plextor PX-740A (rebranded BenQ)
Drive can read max. 143 sectors (-00:01.68) from the Lead-in
Drive can't read lead-out

Quote
Strangely enough, CD-DVD Speed also reported the offset of the Plextor as 0 bytes/samples.

Same here. Weird.

Quote
I consider drives ripping silence instead of music as unable to read the hidden track. Thus for me, they can't read before track 01 index 01.
About the difference between reading silence and not reading, ask the drive designer
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340320"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You mean... not, this can't be... you mean I asked a question you can't answer? Oh boy! I'll remember this day forever! 

OK. So the conclusion would be:

1 - When tracks are hidden at the beginning of the CD, the drive must be able to rip between absolute time 00:00:02:00 and Track 01 Index 01. This is not related to the overreading in lead-in feature.

2 - Neither CDSpeed or the Plextools can tell you if your drive is able to rip between absolute time 00:00:02:00 and Track 01 Index 01. DAE tests published on specialized sites and web databases are useless too. You'll have to own such a CD and try it yourself.


Thanks to your explanation, I'm not puzzled by this problem anymore. Still, I'm amazed: this feature has never been properly commented and listed for each drive on the various DAE-oriented sites and listings for the bit-exact anal-retentive rippers. I mean... we're talking WHOLE SONGS not ripped here. Not a 2352 octets offset or even a 2 seconds gap.

Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Alex B on 2005-11-07 23:25:53
Quote
1 - When tracks are hidden at the beginning of the CD, the drive must be able to rip between absolute time 00:00:02:00 and Track 01 Index 01. This is not related to the overreading in lead-in feature.

2 - Neither CDSpeed or the Plextools can tell you if your drive is able to rip between absolute time 00:00:02:00 and Track 01 Index 01. DAE tests published on specialized sites and web databases are useless too. You'll have to own such a CD and try it yourself.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340336"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

These conclusions seem to be logical.

It's surprising that some drives obviously cannot access the identically located physical audio data if the beginning of the data is marked as INDEX 00 instead of INDEX 01. If I have understood correctly the only small difference between the discs is in the TOCs.

I wonder if anyone could explain how the physical data structures on the CDs would differ if the two different "Hendrix" cue sheets I posted earlier are used. In case this matters, the total length of the source wave file is 42741720 samples (about 16 minutes). That would be very interesting information.

[span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%']Edit: Edited a bit. Hopefully it's easier to understand now...[/span]
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2005-11-08 10:10:20
Many thanks to BoraBora for so doggedly pursuing this topic, and to Pio2001 for his informed posts.

It's just a shame that we are no closer to being able to determine a drive that will do this from the specs!
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Pio2001 on 2005-11-08 11:56:05
Quote
You mean... not, this can't be... you mean I asked a question you can't answer? Oh boy! I'll remember this day forever!  [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340336"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm not sure about the information that you are looking for. If the designer wants the drive to read before track 1 index 1, the drive can, and if he doesn't want, then the drive can't.

Quote
It's surprising that some drives obviously cannot access the identically located physical audio data if the beginning of the data is marked as INDEX 00 instead of INDEX 01. If I have understood correctly the only small difference between the discs is in the TOCs.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340347"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The index information is repeated all along the audio, in the subcode channels, together with the track number, absolute time, SCMS, pre-emphasis, etc
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Egor on 2005-11-08 14:50:47
Probably it would be useful to create a list of drives that can properly extract "track 01 index 00" information. Here is mine little contribution to it, I tested the functionality using self-made audio cd with hidden track and EAC. Minus sign means that there were only silence in extracted waveform instead of a hidden track.

Pioneer DVR-110D: +
NEC ND-3520AW: -
Toshiba SD-R5112: -
Samsung SM-332B: -
Toshiba SD-R1202: -
Mitsumi CR-4804TE: +
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-08 17:59:39
Quote
Probably it would be useful to create a list of drives that can properly extract "track 01 index 00" information.

Absolutely. 

I'll update the list in the first post with your information and clean it a bit (no need to mention the overreading feature since this is not related). If moderators are OK with that, I'll crosspost it on this pinned topic with a request to include these informations in the database: List of DAE Drive Features (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=32151).

If anyone knows people writing for www.cdrinfo.com or www.cdfreaks.com or any other site doing DAE tests with optical drives, it could be nice to request information on this very subject when they're doint tests. 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: southisup on 2005-11-08 18:48:00
The drive on my HP ZE4315 laptop reports itself as QSI CDRW/DVD SBW-241 and I just used it to rip the hidden track at the beginning of David Gray's White Ladder album.

I ripped by range but EAC wouldn't let me put a negative number in for the start frame and the rip audio starts suddenly so I assume a bit is missing at the start.

It looked like standard Windows error trapping preventing negative numbers being entered - is a negative frame number something that just can't exist?
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: .halverhahn on 2005-11-08 20:51:04
I tested some of my Drives.

Drive - Hidden Track with Music=Yes, Silence=No

Plextor PX-40TS - YES
Teac DV-516G - YES
NEC ND-3520 - NO
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Pio2001 on 2005-11-08 21:39:39
Quote
I ripped by range but EAC wouldn't let me put a negative number in for the start frame and the rip audio starts suddenly so I assume a bit is missing at the start.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340535"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The only way to rip earlier is to set the lowest possible read offset correction value in the drive properties.
And if this is not enough, you can tweak the registry entry for the read offset correction in order to set even lower values than EAC can accept in its GUI.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-09 09:23:46
List updated. 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: evereux on 2005-11-09 11:28:02
Thanks for updating the list there BoraBora. I've been going through it comparing that to what I have at daefeatures.co.uk.

Here are the discrepencies.
Code: [Select]
Man. Model        : HA reported (author) | Daefeatures (author)

Lite-On SOHW-1673S: NO  (langoustator)   | Lead In (Thundik81)
Mitsumi CR-4804TE : YES (Egor)           | None    (The Coaster Factory)
Plextor PX-712A   : YES (BoraBora)       | Leadout ( liekloo)
Samsung SD-616E*  : NO  (Synthetic Soul) | Lead In (The Coaster Factory)


*daefeatures lists a 616F, I need to check to see what the differences are

What I'll probably do soon is edit the coaster factory entries and mail the persons who submitted the other two drives and get them to check their entries (if possible). I'll document these changes somewhere too. Also, I'll provide a link to this thread on the site so others can learn from the information here.

Thanks again BoraBora.

edit: Thanks to Pio2001 for his explanation too.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-09 11:57:20
Quote
Thanks for updating the list there BoraBora. I've been going through it comparing that to what I have at daefeatures.co.uk.

Don't thank me, you're the one who does the hard work with daefeatures.co.uk.
Quote
Here are the discrepencies.

Actually, these are not discrependencies.  The YES/NO listed is the ability to rip between absolute time 00:00:02:00 (after the compulsory 2 seconds pregap noted  by Pio2001) and Track 01 Index 01. This is not related to the overreading feature. We're talking a whole new kind of feature. Well... not exactly new, but never listed before on DAE databases.

So far, we don't have tools to test this feature. Neither CDSpeed nor the Plextools mention this feature. We have to own or make (like Alex B did) a CD with sound before Track 01 Index 01 and test and listen ourselves. 

Hiding songs before Track 01 Index 01 seems to become a trend. A very stupid one, if I may add, but unfortunately we can't do much about it. So adding listings for this feature to daefeatures.co.uk would probably be a welcome upgrade. 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: evereux on 2005-11-09 16:30:26
So, to summarize. The list details drives that will return audio in the region between TRACK 01 INDEX 00 and TRACK 01 INDEX 01.

Drives that can overread into the lead-in, some will return audio, some will not (even the disc may contain audio within the hidden track)?

edit: It might be an idea to create an image + cue sheet for people to download so they can test this feature. I could possibly host this at daefeatures and it's something I'll certainly consider adding to the database.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Drenholm on 2005-11-09 17:25:40
Lite-On LTR-52327S

Rapidly fills single lines of error correction at a time for entire pregap, result is silence.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: southisup on 2005-11-09 18:34:13
Quote
Quote
I ripped by range but EAC wouldn't let me put a negative number in for the start frame and the rip audio starts suddenly so I assume a bit is missing at the start.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340535"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The only way to rip earlier is to set the lowest possible read offset correction value in the drive properties.
And if this is not enough, you can tweak the registry entry for the read offset correction in order to set even lower values than EAC can accept in its GUI.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340565"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks.

The lowest EAC accepts is -11,760, which gave me a fraction more, but still not all.

Editing the registry entry to -50,000 seems to have done the trick.

-100,000, which EAC's GUI couldn't display correctly, gave me timing errors when ripping the audio. I did get a bit of silence extra, but the audio start was the same as that for -50,000.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: madorangepanda on 2005-11-09 18:49:23
Tested my two drives on Bloc Party-Silent Alarm and both work
LG-Hitachi HL-DT-STCD-RW GCE8487B
Sony DVD-ROM DDU1615
Ill check if they can overread the lead-in later.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Cosmo on 2005-11-09 20:17:34
repeat:

Lite-On LTR-52246S : NO
BCD E520C : YES
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-09 21:01:13
List updated.

@Cosmo: Sorry I missed your post the first time. 

Quote
So, to summarize. The list details drives that will return audio in the region between TRACK 01 INDEX 00 and TRACK 01 INDEX 01.

Drives that can overread into the lead-in, some will return audio, some will not (even the disc may contain audio within the hidden track)?

Exactly. 
Quote
edit: It might be an idea to create an image + cue sheet for people to download so they can test this feature. I could possibly host this at daefeatures and it's something I'll certainly consider adding to the database.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340748"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a good idea, I'm gonna look into this. 
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: BoraBora on 2005-11-09 23:32:29
OK, I created a wav + cue with two songs, including one hidden.

The songs

index 00: Paul Westerberg / Looking Up in Heaven
index 01: Gilberto Gil / Oslodum

I downloaded both songs on the Wired site (http://creativecommons.org/wired). They're released under a Creative Commons Licence and noncommercial copying and distribution is authorized.

The files

hidden_song_test.cue (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/borabora/hiddensong/hidden_song_test.cue)
hidden_song_test.exe (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/borabora/hiddensong/hidden_song_test.exe) (Wavpack self-executable).

Double-click hidden_song_test.exe to decompress it to wav. Load the .cue in your burn program and burn it.

The test

Rip the CD as an image, then listen to the wav. If you have 3'08'' of silence instead of "Looking Up in Heaven" by Paul Westerberg, your drive can't rip track 01 index 00. If you hear the song, rejoice. Either way, listen to Oslodum by Gilberto Gil, begginning at 03:08:25, it's a nice song. 

P.S. : I hadn't burned a CD-A for years, so I'm not sure I did it the best way. Feel free to modify anything or do a better test CD. 

P.P.S.: This is a crappy free personal site so I probably won't be able to keep it online. If anyone can mirror it, it would be appreciated. Or maybe shared on a P2P network?
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Pio2001 on 2005-11-10 11:33:06
Quote
-100,000, which EAC's GUI couldn't display correctly, gave me timing errors when ripping the audio. [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=340774"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is not surprising. You are then ripping before the audio track, that begins around -88200, in the real lead-in. And I'm not sure if the lead-in features any audio data (we can check in the ECMA-130 specs).
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: evereux on 2005-11-10 12:04:04
Plextor PX-708A - YES

Mirrors:
http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/static/files_htoa/hidden_song_test.exe
http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/static/files_htoa/hidden_song_test.cue
http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/static/files_htoa/hidden_song.sfv
http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/static/files_htoa/hidden_song.md5

Moderation edit: links fixed per request.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Thundik81 on 2005-11-10 22:42:38
With your CD Test :
AOpen CRW3248 : YES
Lite-On SOHW-1673S : NO (rips silence ; but i can't edit read sample offset correction)
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: windowshade on 2005-11-10 23:03:06
Lite-On DVD-ROM LTD 163 - No (obligingly rips silence)
Plextor 716A - Yes
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: fj4 on 2005-11-10 23:57:56
Tested with Autechre's EP7 which has a 9:44.57 pregap:

Plextor CD-RW: PX-W2410A = YES
Firmware 1.04
EAC detects overread into lead-in & -out
Read offset +98 samples

LiteOn DVD+-RW: SOHW-832S = NO (timing problem; rips silence)
Firmware VCG5G
EAC detects overread into lead-in
Read offset +12 samples
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2005-11-11 10:14:31
Quote
I may need to try the Lite-On with a hidden track again to double-check.

Quote
LiteOn DVD+-RW: SOHW-832S = NO (timing problem; rips silence)
Firmware VCG5G
EAC detects overread into lead-in
Read offset +12 samples

Confirmed.  I tested my SOHW832S (CodeGuys firmware) again with Songs for the Deaf and was just getting red lights all the way so I terminated the rip.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: NRAninja on 2005-11-11 22:43:26
I tested another 3 drives. All 3 do the red light /silence thing.

LG GCE-8527B
TOSHIBA SD-M1612
NEC ND-3540A
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Societal Eclipse on 2005-11-11 22:47:26
NEC DV-5800A No (Silence)
NEC NR-7800A No (Silence)
SAMSUNG SN-124 Yes! 

This thread finally spurred me to try the other computers in the house and I discovered my dad's old Dell PIII laptop could rip the hidden track at the beginning of Melotron - Weltfrieden perfectly.

Not only should we keep a running record of what drives can do this we should record which CDs have these tracks in case people might not have even noticed they have them.  Everyone I was telling about this when I got excited and finally ripped that track hadn't even heard of such a hidden track.  I wonder how many other albums are floating around out there with the owners completely oblivious.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Rommel on 2005-11-12 01:23:03
my drives tested with BoraBora's "hidden_song_test.wav":

Plextor Premium: YES
Plextor PX-712A: YES
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Societal Eclipse on 2005-11-12 04:25:10
I forgot to mention that in my quest for some way to rip that hidden track I discovered that our DVD player just spits out an error code as soon as I try rewinding from the start of the first track.  Is that legitimate behavior or are these tracks actually breaking Redbook?  I know my old 5CD Denon carousel will play the track but it was very hard to rewind to the beginning of it because if I went too far it too would choke with an error code.  Unfortunately not only that but I had to turn it off and back on before the error was cleared.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: gLH on 2005-11-12 13:21:05
BenQ DW1620 - NO (Rips Silence)
Mitsumi CR-4804TE - YES

Tested with Super Furry Animals' Guerilla.
Odd that the newer drive can't handle this while the (much) older one can.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Pio2001 on 2005-11-12 14:28:23
Quote
are these tracks actually breaking Redbook? [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=341223"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Good question. I think that they don't break Red Book (the gap must be at least 2 seconds long), but the Red Book doesn't force any player to be able to read them. CD players are supposed to start at track 01 index 01.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: jaybeee on 2005-11-12 16:53:43
LG GSA-4160B: YES
Read offset: +667 samples
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: evereux on 2005-11-12 18:09:20
I've updated http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/ (http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/) so that you can now also catalogue this feature along with the other drive features (along with some other minor visual changes). If you have already submitted your drive features you can edit your submission and include this information.

If anyone has any problems / comments etc feel free to post them here.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: landy on 2005-11-13 23:37:05
Drive = HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4120B
Firmware = A111
Rips sound = yes (although the start and end seem a bit abrupt)

if it works with your test cd i wonder why eac fails to detect the track hidden on this (http://www.discogs.com/release/49619) cd, i didnt put that much effort in at the time but might see if i can rerip it later.

edit just pulled the cd from my pile of stuff i have to rip and eac detected it fine this time :/ maybe i have updated eac in between the times i tried to rip it. do you have to rip cd's like this as an image as the guide for the test says? i ask because i prefere seperate tracks and gap detection seems awful slow (i dont usually use it but it seems your forced to when ripping images).
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Egor on 2005-11-14 08:25:12
Toshiba SD-M2012C: NO.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: gLH on 2005-11-17 00:16:37
LG GDR-8163B - NO (Caused EAC to Hang)
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Societal Eclipse on 2005-11-17 04:31:32
Quote
I've updated http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/ (http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/) so that you can now also catalogue this feature along with the other drive features (along with some other minor visual changes). If you have already submitted your drive features you can edit your submission and include this information.

If anyone has any problems / comments etc feel free to post them here.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=341346"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Just a note - I submitted my NEC NR-7800A and I seleted no for overread.  EAC reports yes for Lead-In and Nero reports no...  I'm not sure which is more accurate so I just went with no.  I normally don't have it enabled in my EAC settings.

(edit) Oh and I see that the 7900A entry says yes for lead-in too.  The drives are exactly the same as far as I can tell as far as offsets and everything.  I guess the overread test for EAC and Nero just don't agree.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Yakhobian on 2005-11-17 04:43:03
Just to add one more to the list.
I can read and extract the hidden tracks before index 01 with my Pioneer DVR-108 drive.  Given that the 110 is also in the list, I imagine it's a pretty safe bet that the model in between, the 109, can also do so 

Edit: Fixed typo
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: fj4 on 2005-11-17 05:29:54
Quote
do you have to rip cd's like this as an image as the guide for the test says? i ask because i prefere seperate tracks and gap detection seems awful slow (i dont usually use it but it seems your forced to when ripping images).

You can either rip as an image or use "Copy Range" and make a track out of the pregap.  It seems that the Snap Gap or Snap Track doesn't recognize Track 01 Index 01 so I use the keyboard (arrow keys) on the slider to get to exactly 00:00.00 (if you're anal about bit-perfect/exact timing.)
Slightly offtopic: For me, no single gap detection method will work for all discs, even brand new/unscratched discs can be very slow to detect.  Set to Secure gap detection, method B works most of the time, but sometimes it hangs; I can leave it for an hour and it's still on the same track.  Try each method if you're having problems, one of them will work eventually.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Cosmo on 2006-05-30 04:13:55
LG GSA-4167B = Yes
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: damir on 2007-05-23 21:05:28
i can confirm that pioneer's dvr-112d can rip pregaps
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Never_Again on 2007-05-24 01:58:43
i can confirm that pioneer's dvr-112d can rip pregaps

I can confirm that as well on my DVR-112D, and that Lite-On LH-20A1P cannot, meaning that the rip is the correct length, but silence.
Funny thing is, Nero CD/DVD Speed reports that the Lite-On can overread both into Lead-In and Lead-Out, and the Pioneer into neither.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: greynol on 2007-05-24 04:24:41
Exactly.  My Yamaha can't overread from the lead-in, but it can do HTOA.

Welcome back, BTW.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: rumpel on 2008-03-02 17:13:19
Not only should we keep a running record of what drives can do this we should record which CDs have these tracks in case people might not have even noticed they have them.

There is a pretty long list of CDs containing hidded tracks in the session pregap in the Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pregap)

It seems reasonable not to start a new list but to just update the Wikipedia one.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Teknojnky on 2008-04-07 23:01:50
I did the hidden song test on my laptop (IBM/Lenova T60P Thinkpad), adding my results:

EAC: appeared to rip successfully, albeit input wave and extracted wave are not bit identical, I could not recognize any difference between them.

it also took a couple hours to extract...

Code: [Select]
Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 4 from 23. January 2008

EAC extraction logfile from 7. April 2008, 16:27

Unknown Artist / Unknown Title

Used drive  : MATSHITADVD-RAM UJ-842  Adapter: 0  ID: 0

Read mode              : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache      : No
Make use of C2 pointers : Yes

Read offset correction                      : 102
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out          : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks  : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations      : No
Used interface                              : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000

Used output format : Internal WAV Routines
Sample format      : 44.100 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo


TOC of the extracted CD

    Track |  Start  |  Length  | Start sector | End sector
    ---------------------------------------------------------
        1  |  3:08.25 |  3:54.08 |    14125    |    31682 


Range status and errors

Selected range

    Filename Unknown Artist - Unknown Title.wav

    Peak level 100.0 %
    Range quality 97.0 %
    Copy CRC 74740FE8
    Copy OK

No errors occurred

 
AccurateRip summary
 
Track  1  cannot be verified as accurate (confidence 5)  [667B9449], AccurateRip returned [986EB5EB]
 
No tracks could be verified as accurate
You may have a different pressing from the one(s) in the database

End of status report

dbpoweramp r13 april 7th 2008 release

separate track mode
Code: [Select]
dBpoweramp Release 13 Digital Audio Extraction Log from Monday, April 07, 2008 4:32 PM

Drive & Settings
----------------

Ripping with drive 'G:  [MATSHITA - DVD-RAM UJ-842  ]',  Drive offset: 102,  Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: None,  FUA Cache Invalidate: No
Pass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
Ultra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 1,  Max Passes: 10,  Finish After Clean Passes: 2
Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 80

Encoder: Wave -compression="PCM"
DSP Effects / Actions: -dspeffect1="ReplayGain=-albummode={qt}0{qt}"

Extraction Log
--------------

Track 0:  Ripped LBA 0 to 14125 (3:08) in 1:44. Filename: 00  - .wav
  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 1]
  CRC32: E03BC989

Track 1:  Ripped LBA 14125 to 31683 (3:54) in 0:49. Filename: 01  - .wav
  AccurateRip: Inaccurate (confidence 5)  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 1]
  CRC32: E2DBCC91    AccurateRip CRC: 433BE448    [DiscID: 001-0000b2f0-00012eb3-0a00ea01-1]

--------------

1 Tracks Ripped Securely (AccurateRip: Different Pressing?)


rip as one mode
Code: [Select]
dBpoweramp Release 13 Digital Audio Extraction Log from Monday, April 07, 2008 4:37 PM

Drive & Settings
----------------

Ripping with drive 'G:  [MATSHITA - DVD-RAM UJ-842  ]',  Drive offset: 102,  Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: None,  FUA Cache Invalidate: No
Pass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
Ultra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 1,  Max Passes: 10,  Finish After Clean Passes: 2
Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 80

Encoder: Wave -compression="PCM"
DSP Effects / Actions: -dspeffect1="ReplayGain=-albummode={qt}0{qt}"

Extraction Log
--------------

Track 0:  Ripped LBA 0 to 31683 (7:02) in 1:59. Filename: 00 Unknown Artist - Rip as One.wav
  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 1]
  CRC32: AF207CC2

--------------



Bit comparison (foobar)

source wave vs eac extraction
Comparing failed (length mismatch : 7:02.428254 vs 7:02.440000, 18629086 vs 18629604 samples).


source wave vs r13 rip as one extraction
Comparing failed (length mismatch : 7:02.428254 vs 7:02.440000, 18629086 vs 18629604 samples).

eac vs r13 rip as one
differences found: 16602913 sample(s), starting at 0.0249660 second(s), peak: 1.9550781 at 105.6849887 second(s), 2ch


eac took like 2+ hours to extract the pre-gap audio, r13 took about a minute or 2 (including ultrasecure passes)

So, from what I can see, MATSHITADVD-RAM UJ-842 does appear to support HTOA however it does not appear to be 100% bit accurate to the source, although I could not discern any audible differences between any of the 3 (source, eac, r13).

It should also be noted that I burnt the test cd with the same drive, what consequences that may cause I don't know.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: weaker on 2008-04-08 00:09:56
I just want to add my results:

Used "White Ladder" from David Gray (was the only album in the wikipedia pregap list that I own). It contains about two minutes of music before track 1.

I used EAC 0.99 pb4 and the "copy range" command set from zero to the end of track 1. All drives were set to my usual secure ripping settings.

All my drives succeeded in ripping that range with music. And the outcome was bitidentical from all three drives. (Did an inverted mix and it was all zeros.)

- Plextor Premium (I) 1.07
- Plextor DVD 716A 1.11
- AOpen 1648/AAP Pro 1.04

Best regards,
weaker
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: Teknojnky on 2008-04-08 17:27:47
I dug up an old Pioneer dvr 106 and stuck it in my main machine and it was able to successfully rip htoa:

R13 april 7 2008 release
Code: [Select]
dBpoweramp Release 13 Digital Audio Extraction Log from Monday, April 07, 2008 11:56 PM

Drive & Settings
----------------

Ripping with drive 'I:  [PIONEER  - DVD-RW  DVR-106D]',  Drive offset: 48,  Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active,  Using C2: Yes,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: No
Pass 1 Drive Speed: Max,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: Max
Ultra::  Vary Drive Speed: No,  Min Passes: 1,  Max Passes: 6,  Finish After Clean Passes: 2
Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: Max,  Maximum Re-reads: 150

Encoder: FLAC -compression-level-8 -verify
DSP Effects / Actions: -dspeffect1="ReplayGain=-albummode={qt}0{qt}"

Extraction Log
--------------

Track 0:  Ripped LBA 0 to 41425 (9:12) in 1:08. Filename: 00 Various Artists - Hidden First Track (ability to rip depends on CD drive).flac
  Secure  [Pass 1, Ultra 1 to 1]
  CRC32: 9AA6211B

Track 1:  Ripped LBA 41425 to 56787 (3:24) in 0:11. Filename: 01 Mark Snow - X-Files Theme (Main Title).flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 57)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: D1AF8B1D    AccurateRip CRC: 922FB3E6    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-1]

Track 2:  Ripped LBA 56787 to 71980 (3:22) in 0:10. Filename: 02 Soul Coughing - Unmarked Helicopters.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 53)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: C28101E2    AccurateRip CRC: 0F641A12    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-2]

Track 3:  Ripped LBA 71980 to 92740 (4:36) in 0:13. Filename: 03 Sheryl Crow - On the Outside.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 55)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: E4260701    AccurateRip CRC: 2999FF52    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-3]

Track 4:  Ripped LBA 92740 to 111105 (4:04) in 0:11. Filename: 04 Foo Fighters - Down in the Park.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 56)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 2C729256    AccurateRip CRC: 7129599E    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-4]

Track 5:  Ripped LBA 111105 to 126865 (3:30) in 0:09. Filename: 05 R.E.M. - Star Me Kitten.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 54)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 51192B29    AccurateRip CRC: 10C1780C    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-5]

Track 6:  Ripped LBA 126865 to 154695 (6:11) in 0:15. Filename: 06 Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - Red Right Hand.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 52)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 2E5A377F    AccurateRip CRC: C7DF174C    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-6]

Track 7:  Ripped LBA 154695 to 173460 (4:10) in 0:09. Filename: 07 Filter - Thanks Bro.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 54)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 1F88D650    AccurateRip CRC: 0B1902CE    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-7]

Track 8:  Ripped LBA 173460 to 195934 (4:59) in 0:11. Filename: 08 Frank Black - Man of Steel.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 55)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 63F2C500    AccurateRip CRC: 1FB0303F    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-8]

Track 9:  Ripped LBA 195934 to 212780 (3:44) in 0:08. Filename: 09 Meat Puppets - Unexplained.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 54)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: E3088D3A    AccurateRip CRC: 8C5FE17F    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-9]

Track 10:  Ripped LBA 212780 to 230085 (3:50) in 0:08. Filename: 10 Danzig - Deep.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 55)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 73F08D29    AccurateRip CRC: 6597BC82    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-10]

Track 11:  Ripped LBA 230085 to 239892 (2:10) in 0:04. Filename: 11 Screamin' Jay Hawkins - Frenzy.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 54)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 41E78CF6    AccurateRip CRC: 73607656    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-11]

Track 12:  Ripped LBA 239892 to 268402 (6:20) in 0:12. Filename: 12 Elvis Costello - My Dark Life.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 50)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: B4AEE2FB    AccurateRip CRC: F88210C3    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-12]

Track 13:  Ripped LBA 268402 to 287355 (4:12) in 0:08. Filename: 13 Rob Zombie - Hands of Death (Burn Baby Burn).flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 53)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 7E223BBB    AccurateRip CRC: D3CF4A44    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-13]

Track 14:  Ripped LBA 287355 to 305832 (4:06) in 0:07. Filename: 14 P.M. Dawn - If You Never Say Goodbye.flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 52)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: B10EE0B8    AccurateRip CRC: 9DB98BC1    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-14]

Track 15:  Ripped LBA 305832 to 323762 (3:59) in 0:07. Filename: 15 Mark Snow - X-Files Theme (P.M. Dawn remix).flac
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 48)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: D70546EF    AccurateRip CRC: 890F3CEA    [DiscID: 015-002c252b-01dab2f0-e90eb40f-15]

--------------

15 Tracks Ripped Accurately


Further, I was able to bit compare (with foobar) the extracted htoa from the pioneer with the extraction from the matshita in my previous post above and they were bit identical.

So it appears that perhaps my htoa test disc may not have burned correctly, but both the pioneer and matshita extract bit identical data when ripped with dbpoweramp r13.

I tested with the following discs:

queens of the stone age - songs for the deaf
songs in the key of x - various xfiles compilation
blind melon - soup

All 3 were bit identical between 2 drives using r13.

I also tested with sister machine gun - burn, but the disc is apparently slightly scratched enough where I can't get bit accurate extractions.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: breadloafer on 2011-09-22 08:00:29
Sorry to bump up on old topic, but I found this thread via Google while trying to rip pre-gap hidden songs on my CDs. I have two drives (Samsung and Pioneer) and they both rip the gap but it's only silence.

I'd been searching and searching for an answer on how to get these hidden tracks ripped with drives that don't support it and I finally found a way to do it myself!!

Here's my method for anyone else who finds this thread:

1. Using ImgBurn, create an image file of the disc in .bin format.
2. Open the .bin file in Cool Edit Pro.
3. Trim off all the excess audio (the regular tracks) and you're left with the hidden pre-gap track! I used EAC to determine what the 'real' hidden track length was (ie the Start of Track01 will be the end of Track00).

I was stoked to realise I wouldn't need to get a new drive just to rip these hidden tracks. Hope this method helps some others out there too.
Title: Ripping hidden tracks before index 01
Post by: N8N on 2012-05-08 03:49:57
Another thread necro, just belatedly discovered this topic while trying to rip my CD collection.  Apparently my copy of QOTSA's Songs for the Deaf does have a hidden track 0.  The original DVD-R drive in my PC was unable to rip it (it would recognize it but ripped only silence) however I used that as an excuse to get a BD-R drive and that one does in fact rip correctly.  It's an LG WH12LS39K.  Shows up as HL-DT-ST BD-RE WH12LS39.  If anyone would like me to do any more rigorous testing of this drive to help them make an informed purchasing decision let me know.  I haven't yet tried to play or burn a BD on it...

I also neglected to write down the model of the DVD-R that didn't work correctly (it's stuck in my case, but I didn't have an extra SATA cable to hook it back up although that is the eventual plan,) but it's probably 3 years old so likely won't be found on any shelves for sale.  I do know that it's a Sony.

The BD-R in my laptop will also rip hidden track 0 audio correctly.  It's a couple year old Dell Studio 1510 but it's not fired up right now.  If interested I can get model of that unit but it appears to be somewhat integrated into that laptop so I don't know if that will be of real interest to anyone here.
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