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Lossy Audio Compression => MP3 => MP3 - Tech => Topic started by: skelly831 on 2005-09-11 20:42:00

Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: skelly831 on 2005-09-11 20:42:00
Lame version 3.97 beta 1 is available at rarewares (http://www.rarewares.org/mp3.html), this is good news for all those alphaphobes around here.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: jaybeee on 2005-09-11 21:26:14
Excellent. 
Great work from the LAME devs.
And thanks for the early heads-up skelly831.

Would I be correct in assuming that there is actually no difference in the encoder bewteen 3.97a12 and 3.97b1?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: bug80 on 2005-09-11 21:32:46
Great! 

Quote
Would I be correct in assuming that there is actually no difference in the encoder bewteen 3.97a12 and 3.97b1?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326318"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd like to know too.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: JohanDeBock on 2005-09-11 21:35:27
Quote
Great! 

Quote
Would I be correct in assuming that there is actually no difference in the encoder bewteen 3.97a12 and 3.97b1?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326318"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd like to know too.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326321"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



I see no differences apart from the version tags after comparing the mp3's produced with -apfs
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: skelly831 on 2005-09-11 21:40:16
Actually the a12 .exe is 181kb while the b1 .exe is 163kb.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Leo 69 on 2005-09-11 21:41:13
jaybeee

Quote
Excellent. Great work from the LAME devs.

(http://forums.overclockers.ru/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif)
Quote
Would I be correct in assuming that there is actually no difference in the encoder bewteen 3.97a12 and 3.97b1?

(http://forums.overclockers.ru/images/smiles/icon_haha.gif)
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Shade[ST] on 2005-09-11 21:47:57
Supposedly, it isn't out yet (or the CVS changelog isn't up to date?)

LAME 3.97 alpha (CVS)

Robert Hegemann:

Fixed and out of array access
Fixed some small rounding problem in vbr-new quantization routines
Updated scalefactors allocation scheme in vbr-new
Fixed mingw32 configure problems
Resolved some compiler warnings

Gabriel Bouvigne:

Changed some FLOAT8 to FLOAT
Reworked -q1 and -q0
Updated presets
Fixed an error in ISO quantization on systems not using the IEEE754 hack
Faster quantization
SSE version of init_xrpow
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-11 21:56:50
See the 'history.html' in the download.  In quality terms, I believe there is little, or no, difference between a12 and b1.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Leo 69 on 2005-09-11 22:14:00
BTW, this is a great present for my birthday. Thank you very much, dear developers
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: skelly831 on 2005-09-11 23:30:06
Quote
BTW, this is a great present for my birthday.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326330"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Can you prove this is a "great" present, do you have ABX results?

JK, Happy Birthday, Leo 69!
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: VCSkier on 2005-09-12 02:06:15
Quote
BTW, this is a great present for my birthday. Thank you very much, dear developers
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326330"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i was just thinking the same thing!  today is my birthday as well.

edit: btw, shouldn't this be an official announcement?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: VCSkier on 2005-09-12 08:01:25
i didn't feel like starting a new thread for such a simple question, but i was wondering if it made any sense to use -q 0 with -V2 --vbr-new.  I know it will slow down encoding time, but if in some cases it will pinch out some extra quality or cut out some bits, it may be useful to me.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: DreamTactix291 on 2005-09-12 08:06:38
AFAIK they fixed the old bugs in -q0 and -q1 during 3.97's alpha stage so assuming there aren't any more unknown bugs it should be safe.  Now whether or not you should use them is an entirely different matter
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: alter4 on 2005-09-12 08:09:09
Is vbr-new default for "vbr" mode in beta1?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: shrinkmail on 2005-09-12 08:14:22
the apelllation beta affords some psychological comfort ;-)
The regression report inclines me to use V0, q remaining the same.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Frank Bicking on 2005-09-12 08:37:53
Quote
Is vbr-new default for "vbr" mode in beta1?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326394"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No. Could one of the developers please explain what is planned in this regard?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: tycho on 2005-09-12 09:01:00
I see that there is a slight speed drop in vbr_new on my machine:
397a12 --vbr-new: 16.2x
397b1 --vbr-new: 15.5x

The differences down to vbr_old is getting narrower:

397b1 --vbr-old: 11.0x

It varies slightly on different music.


edit: When I ran another sample, I still found the speed drop, but also bigger differences between old and new (which it should be).
397a12 --vbr-new: 17.2x
397b1 --vbr-new: 16.5x

397a12 --vbr-old: 10.2x
397b1 --vbr-old: 10.2x
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Insolent on 2005-09-12 09:06:07
w00t!

Lets hope for a final soon.

Edit: If --vbr-new is said to produce the same, and in some cases slightly better, results at a faster encoding speed than the standard vbr algorithm, then why is the standard algorithm even included? It makes much more sense to just remove it and set --vbr-new to default, IMO.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-09-12 09:27:38
Vbr-new will probably NOT be defaulted in 3.97. While this vbr mode itself seems fine, defaulting it is not tested enough and would require differing release.

As it has been a long time since last release, and as 3.97 should bring significant improvements compared to previous release, it is released but featuring the legacy vbr mode as default.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: dev0 on 2005-09-12 09:33:54
I think --vbr-new should be recommended in the new "Recommended Settings" thread, so people start using it and report failure/problem cases.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: tedgo on 2005-09-12 09:45:42
Is it now "safe" to use 3.97b1 instead of 3.96.1?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: robert on 2005-09-12 10:20:20
Quote
I see that there is a slight speed drop in vbr_new on my machine:
397a12 --vbr-new: 16.2x
397b1 --vbr-new: 15.5x

The differences down to vbr_old is getting narrower:

397b1 --vbr-old: 11.0x

It varies slightly on different music.


edit: When I ran another sample, I still found the speed drop, but also bigger differences between old and new (which it should be).
397a12 --vbr-new: 17.2x
397b1 --vbr-new: 16.5x

397a12 --vbr-old: 10.2x
397b1 --vbr-old: 10.2x
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326404"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the newer vbr code hasn't changed for quite some time, so there should be no speed decrease. what exactly is your commandline at full length?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-12 11:32:29
Sorry, guys, I had compiled using the stock options rather than those that I normally use.  I've recompiled and uploaded again. The speed should now be as before.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: de Mon on 2005-09-12 11:59:51
What about this issue?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=37003&hl= (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=37003&hl=)
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: ErikS on 2005-09-12 12:00:33
Quote
What about this issue?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=37003&hl= (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=37003&hl=)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326432"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No change.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: jaybeee on 2005-09-12 12:11:58
Quote
What about this issue?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=37003&hl= (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=37003&hl=)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326432"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There will always been samples that certain encoders or encoder switches will not be able to cope with in comparison to other encoders or similar switches.  Whilst it is an interesting sample and one that should be looked at, there seems to have been more positive feedback on --vbr-new than negative.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: moozooh on 2005-09-12 12:32:57
I believe this issue can be corrected.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: AndyMutz on 2005-09-12 22:14:29
when using --vbr-new the -q switch produces exact same results, no matter if i use q0,q1,q2,q3 or q4. is that intended?

-andy-
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Axon on 2005-09-12 22:24:49
Should we start thinking about doing large-scale sample/regression testing of 3.97 --vbr-new against 3.90.3, towards making it the recommended encoder? I'm a little leery of just calling it done just yet, given the extremely high standard of testing that is previously established.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: VCSkier on 2005-09-13 05:24:04
based on the tests that have already been conducted, it has already been decided that when 3.97 stable is out, it will become the new recommended version.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=289316 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=32121&view=findpost&p=289316)
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Mr_Rabid_Teddybear on 2005-09-14 01:41:51
I had a serious issue with the lame ACM from the 3.97b1 compile from RareWares. After installing it EAC, the software with my Bluethoot device and some other programs could no longer be opened. I got "Access violation" messages and such. When reverting to the 3.96.1 Lame ACM, all those issues was resolved. (Using XP sp2, BTW.)
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: tedgo on 2005-09-14 12:38:19
I had the same issue with lameACM. EAC won't start but i got an error message with an "access violation".
But i deinstalled lameACM because i don't need it anymore 
I only used lameACM for filmsoundtrack in the past, but i changed to mp4 or mkv and use other audioformats instead of lame now.
The main-thing is that the lame.exe works great and gives excellent results.

But i have another question:
I didn't followed the hole development of 3.97alphas.
Now i wanted to test all the properties of lame397b1 like i did with 3.96.1.
In 3.96.1 there were ATH-Settings available. Now in the 3.97b1 it doesn't take any effect, when playing with this settings. Are they removed?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-09-14 13:40:29
Regarding the ACM interface:
Source code did not changed between a12 and beta, but some people are reporting crashes with beta while a12 was working.
Some of those people downloaded the binaries from Rarewares, so the question is:
Is the compiled beta ACM available on Rarewares using the same compiler switches are the previously available a12?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Iuppiter on 2005-09-14 15:23:53
Is it possible, that there will be a Mac-Version of this beta?
Would be very nice 
I've found a Mac-Version of alpha11, very comfortable in combination with iTunes and Synergy (automatic coversearch).
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-14 16:00:33
Quote
Regarding the ACM interface:
Source code did not changed between a12 and beta, but some people are reporting crashes with beta while a12 was working.
Some of those people downloaded the binaries from Rarewares, so the question is:
Is the compiled beta ACM available on Rarewares using the same compiler switches are the previously available a12?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326834"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hmmm, I don't know what happened with the previous build, but I've rebuilt the ACM and I think it's OK now. I've uploaded again to Rarewares and added a note to the narrative indicating that it's only the ACM that's changed.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: moozooh on 2005-09-16 17:15:23
Hey john33, may I suggest making a fresh version of LamedropXPd based on you-know-what?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-16 17:34:38
You may, indeed!!  I'll get right on it.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: shrinkmail on 2005-09-16 17:41:15
Thanks a lot john33, now i can finally show my friends, who can't be bothered with commandline settings, how good the new lame 3.97 is
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-16 18:14:37
Quote
Hey john33, may I suggest making a fresh version of LamedropXPd based on you-know-what?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327315"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now available at Rarewares. The version I've posted is the one with the revised encoder dialogue interface.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: c15zyx on 2005-09-16 19:09:59
Quote
Is it possible, that there will be a Mac-Version of this beta?
Would be very nice 
I've found a Mac-Version of alpha11, very comfortable in combination with iTunes and Synergy (automatic coversearch).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=326851"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Developer Tools come free with Mac OS X, and can also be downloaded (http://connect.apple.com), and you only need to type 3 simple lines in the Terminal to build and install LAME. A quick reference to this is available with the iTunes-LAME software. It's even easier now with the beta, because there's a source code file download on LAME's sourceforge page, instead of just pulling from cvs.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: onthejazz on 2005-09-16 19:50:22
Quote
Quote
Hey john33, may I suggest making a fresh version of LamedropXPd based on you-know-what?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327315"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now available at Rarewares. The version I've posted is the one with the revised encoder dialogue interface.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327329"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm not sure I understand the scale of 10-100 for the encoder dialogue, how does it correctly correspond to the new presets, such as -V0.  Also, please explain what the encoding engine quality does.  Thanks for the update to LameDrop, always handy.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: onthejazz on 2005-09-16 19:58:04
Quote
Quote
Hey john33, may I suggest making a fresh version of LamedropXPd based on you-know-what?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327315"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now available at Rarewares. The version I've posted is the one with the revised encoder dialogue interface.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327329"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

After encoding using the newly posted LameDrop for 3.97b1, encspot & audio identifier show the lame version as 3.96r.  Not sure what causes this, when I encode using speeks front end I get the proper version tag for 3.97b1.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-16 21:28:57
Quote
Quote
Quote
Hey john33, may I suggest making a fresh version of LamedropXPd based on you-know-what?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327315"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Now available at Rarewares. The version I've posted is the one with the revised encoder dialogue interface.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327329"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

After encoding using the newly posted LameDrop for 3.97b1, encspot & audio identifier show the lame version as 3.96r.  Not sure what causes this, when I encode using speeks front end I get the proper version tag for 3.97b1.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327357"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hmmm, I don't quite know how that happened, but I've recompiled and uploaded again and it now reads '3.97b', as it should. Thanks for reporting this, BTW.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-09-16 22:47:50
Quote
I'm not sure I understand the scale of 10-100 for the encoder dialogue, how does it correctly correspond to the new presets, such as -V0. Also, please explain what the encoding engine quality does.

http://lame.sourceforge.net/lame_ui_example.html (http://lame.sourceforge.net/lame_ui_example.html)
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: calx on 2005-09-17 05:55:15
Just curious as to why EncSpot report lowpass filter at 18600 for -v 2 --vbr-new?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-17 09:51:30
Quote
Just curious as to why EncSpot report lowpass filter at 18600 for -v 2 --vbr-new?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327469"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is because for -V 2, the old -preset standard, the vbr quality is set to 2 and this in turn sets a lowpass of 18600. It has been this way for some time.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: calx on 2005-09-17 14:53:08
OK. Thank you john!
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: moozooh on 2005-09-17 18:46:00
Yay, thanks John!
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: moozooh on 2005-09-17 19:02:02
By the way, bitrate corresponding table is a bit, well, misleading in LamedropXPd v.2: while quality 70 is a perfect 176 kbps, quality 60 is more like 144 (150 kbps, to be more precise) and 40 is almost perfect 128 kbps. That is because of -Y switch that gives a massive boost to bitrate starting with -V3, so the progression is non-linear here.
Well, it's not a bug, nor a serious issue… just a minor note.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-17 22:45:00
Quote
By the way, bitrate corresponding table is a bit, well, misleading in LamedropXPd v.2: while quality 70 is a perfect 176 kbps, quality 60 is more like 144 (150 kbps, to be more precise) and 40 is almost perfect 128 kbps. That is because of -Y switch that gives a massive boost to bitrate starting with -V3, so the progression is non-linear here.
Well, it's not a bug, nor a serious issue… just a minor note.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327588"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Always a difficult one, this, as it does very much depend upon the material used. However, if one can generalise, I think that it should be revised as follows:
Code: [Select]
Quality Setting                   Indicated Bitrate
 10  (V9)                                   64
 20  (V8)                                   92
 30  (V7)                                  112
 40  (V6)                                  128
 50  (V5)                                  140
 60  (V4)                                  160
 70  (V3)                                  176
 80  (V2)                                  200
 90  (V1)                                  224
 100 (V0)                                  240

Anyone else have a view on this?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: guruboolez on 2005-09-19 09:36:02
Did the --athaa-sensitivity switch disapear?
LAME 3.97b1 doesn't start with this switch, whereas the 3.97a12 using the same commandline is working perfectly. Is it intended?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: guruboolez on 2005-09-19 09:37:58
Quote
Always a difficult one, this, as it does very much depend upon the material used. However, if one can generalise, I think that it should be revised as follows:
Code: [Select]
Quality Setting                   Indicated Bitrate
 10  (V9)                                   64
 20  (V8)                                   92
 30  (V7)                                  112
 40  (V6)                                  128
 50  (V5)                                  140
 60  (V4)                                  160
 70  (V3)                                  176
 80  (V2)                                  200
 90  (V1)                                  224
 100 (V0)                                  240

Anyone else have a view on this?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=327625"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm building a complete table based on a representative [of my own collection] set of 150 classical files (and only classical!). My computer is still busy; I think I will post the result tomorrow.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: robert on 2005-09-19 09:59:37
Quote
Did the --athaa-sensitivity switch disapear?
LAME 3.97b1 doesn't start with this switch, whereas the 3.97a12 using the same commandline is working perfectly. Is it intended?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328032"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the ath switches are available in alpha builds for developing and tuning. If you think you need the sensitivity switch to undo/tune presets, then the presets should be changed.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-09-19 10:29:24
Experimental switches are also available when binary is compiled in debug mode.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: [proxima] on 2005-09-19 10:31:09
In the past, with v3.96.1, the athaa-sensitivity 1 setting showed a great improvement with certain passages reducing ringing/warblig problems with very limited bitrate increase (at least for certain genres).
I didn't test latest 3.97 alhpa but according to guruboolez intensive testing, those problems are reduced to acceptable levels now. So, i suppose, he himself would not recommend using athaa switches with the new 3.97 version. If not and if 3.97a12 outputs bit identical results with 3.97b1 i can eventually test some samples.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: guruboolez on 2005-09-19 10:49:07
Quote
Quote
Did the --athaa-sensitivity switch disapear?
LAME 3.97b1 doesn't start with this switch, whereas the 3.97a12 using the same commandline is working perfectly. Is it intended?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328032"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

the ath switches are available in alpha builds for developing and tuning. If you think you need the sensitivity switch to undo/tune presets, then the presets should be changed.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328035"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The quality impact of --athaa-sensitivity 1 (with -V5) is variable. I noticed difference in bitrate up to 20 kbps. Difference in quality is very important too - especially after MP3gain process (useful for portable IMO).
For me, it's a pity that this switch isn't available anymore. 
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: robert on 2005-09-19 11:25:31
is this switch only useful with -V5 preset, and maybe below?
would you always use it in combination with -V5 (saw some recommendation elsewhere)?

if not always, what kind of samples are affected?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-09-19 11:39:53
Quote
The quality impact of --athaa-sensitivity 1 (with -V5) is variable. I noticed difference in bitrate up to 20 kbps. Difference in quality is very important too - especially after MP3gain process (useful for portable IMO).
For me, it's a pity that this switch isn't available anymore.

I'd suggest --athlower or --scale in such cases.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Assault on 2005-09-19 12:04:15
Please let me repeat AndyMutz's question:

Quote
when using --vbr-new the -q switch produces exact same results, no matter if i use q0,q1,q2,q3 or q4. is that intended?


Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks for your help!
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: guruboolez on 2005-09-19 12:11:53
Quote
is this switch only useful with -V5 preset, and maybe below?
would you always use it in combination with -V5 (saw some recommendation elsewhere)?

if not always, what kind of samples are affected?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328052"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I haven't tried the effect of the switch with VBR mode below -V5.
I always add this command to all -V5 encodings. On average the bitrate is increased by 6 kbps IIRC.
The impact is really audible on low volume sample/part of the sample. It becomes dramatic after MP3gain with such samples. But the --ahtaa-sensitivity 1 tool can't fully solve the extreme ringing issues occuring with very quiet samples. The quality gain is nevertheless important, and I would rather make --athaa-sensitivity 1 the default mode if you really want to remove this tool from the public version of LAME.



P.S. I recently made some RG statistics with a part of my classical library (11000 files were involved). ~1050 files had a track gain > +10 dB! On such tracks, there's serious ATH issues with LAME VBR with -V5. -V4 is by default much better.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: [proxima] on 2005-09-19 13:40:43
I can speak only for 3.96.1 and early 3.97 alphas, i have to test the lastest version to be sure. --athaa-sensitivity 1 is useful with low/mid bitrate VBR settings. With -V5 the quality impact with some quite tracks in impressive but not resolutive with extreme samples. I remember i did tests even at -V4 and the same switch proved to be useful to reduce ringing. With -V3 and below i believe that the quality gain is trascurable. That said, i never mp3gained my encodings for these tests but i can't exclude that with very high corrections (or high volume listening) artifacts could arise even with others VBR settings.

@robert: if you search for athaa sensitivity in the forums, you'll find some tests and samples affected but i believe that these cases are not so unusual, expecially with certain genres.

@gabriel: --athaa-sensitivity corrects well some issues with limitate bitrate increase. --athlower will certainly help in the same cases but at what "price" ? I admit i never tested it.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: guruboolez on 2005-09-20 13:37:27
As promised, the bitrate table for each VBR -V mode and for both "default" & "new" VBR algorithms.
It's based on 150 classical tracks. Bitrate bloat due to sb21 are not really common; as a consequence, the average bitrate I obtained for the highest profiles is probably lower than what people encoding dynamically compressed music would get.

[span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']VBR [OLD][/b][/u][/span]

Code: [Select]
V0	V1	V2	V3	V4	V5	V6	V7	V8	V9

239,0 229,8 207,1 195,2 175,8 134,7 112,6 92,4 74,5 52,5
253,4 233,9 206,0 169,4 153,4 133,4 119,4 99,7 83,2 57,8
269,3 252,5 225,0 196,8 176,8 150,4 137,5 122,6 97,6 69,4
262,4 243,8 215,4 177,1 161,4 142,9 130,7 112,5 93,2 68,4
218,9 201,3 177,9 156,4 140,4 108,3 93,5 79,6 67,1 46,4
174,0 166,8 145,5 133,9 115,3 82,1 69,0 55,1 47,2 31,0
224,9 213,3 191,8 182,7 164,9 129,8 109,2 89,8 73,7 52,7
222,0 211,1 190,4 180,2 164,1 131,8 105,7 81,2 63,9 42,9
216,4 205,3 184,0 174,3 153,4 111,7 94,4 76,7 61,7 40,8
228,4 211,4 187,0 158,1 142,2 119,2 95,5 71,2 52,4 31,9
230,5 220,4 199,0 188,4 167,6 130,5 107,8 87,7 72,0 50,6
220,6 211,8 191,1 177,3 153,8 109,5 90,3 71,1 57,7 38,1
244,9 222,2 196,9 180,9 161,4 127,2 109,4 94,2 81,8 61,9
224,5 213,0 192,3 182,9 163,7 127,6 106,5 86,4 70,4 50,2
220,3 200,3 176,7 165,0 146,7 116,2 98,1 80,1 65,2 45,9
244,4 228,8 204,5 182,5 166,5 139,7 120,2 98,7 79,3 49,8
212,4 201,5 179,6 167,7 148,4 110,6 91,9 73,3 58,1 38,1
216,5 201,8 179,9 170,5 154,1 126,6 106,1 85,1 68,9 48,1
225,9 216,7 195,9 185,9 166,8 131,7 110,4 89,7 72,6 50,6
226,8 217,7 195,9 186,2 168,9 131,5 107,7 85,2 68,9 49,0
232,3 221,3 199,2 187,0 170,6 140,2 118,6 98,3 80,7 57,2
239,2 224,7 201,7 184,6 167,1 137,5 114,9 93,0 73,8 50,6
218,7 209,0 186,8 173,4 154,3 117,3 98,8 83,0 68,9 50,0
209,6 198,2 175,1 161,3 140,1 104,5 88,3 71,3 59,1 40,6
212,4 204,4 184,5 171,3 145,1 91,3 72,9 56,1 42,9 23,3
221,2 211,5 190,0 178,7 158,0 115,1 93,9 75,4 61,3 42,1
230,5 217,4 195,5 187,4 172,5 143,8 119,5 97,3 78,4 55,0
226,5 214,9 193,2 179,2 156,6 117,5 98,8 78,6 64,8 44,0
218,6 208,5 186,5 172,7 151,8 111,9 92,5 72,3 57,7 38,8
238,6 225,2 200,9 184,4 167,5 140,8 122,7 103,5 86,9 64,2
237,2 220,0 195,6 181,7 160,4 124,2 103,2 84,3 69,9 50,7
230,0 215,9 193,0 179,2 157,1 117,2 97,9 77,9 63,4 43,4
242,2 227,7 202,7 187,6 169,1 134,4 115,0 97,8 81,6 60,2
232,2 209,3 182,7 164,7 145,8 113,3 96,2 78,3 65,9 45,5
238,8 226,7 204,3 193,3 176,3 141,9 117,4 95,6 76,4 52,9
227,2 213,1 189,2 163,9 150,0 132,2 122,4 106,0 89,5 66,1
228,5 216,7 194,6 184,5 168,2 140,9 121,2 100,7 85,7 63,6
228,1 208,3 184,1 173,7 155,9 128,3 112,6 93,3 81,8 61,0
211,6 202,9 182,0 170,5 153,8 118,9 96,0 76,9 62,2 39,4
214,4 204,4 183,1 172,4 156,0 128,8 114,2 93,6 79,2 53,8
225,9 212,3 188,9 174,7 160,2 140,3 126,9 109,5 92,2 69,5
216,4 207,1 185,6 173,6 154,7 120,5 102,2 81,4 67,6 48,1
220,6 210,9 190,2 180,0 160,4 123,7 103,1 82,5 66,8 46,0
224,8 213,5 191,4 179,1 157,9 118,2 97,9 78,5 63,5 42,6
224,7 208,0 184,5 170,9 150,9 116,9 98,3 80,0 65,9 46,3
209,2 199,5 180,0 173,1 157,6 135,1 113,8 91,9 77,8 56,3
207,9 198,5 179,4 169,4 153,5 126,8 109,7 89,9 76,0 54,6
228,9 216,7 194,0 181,9 164,2 135,2 116,1 96,3 80,9 58,1
222,3 204,5 180,5 167,4 150,1 108,8 84,8 65,0 50,4 28,7
237,3 220,7 195,0 172,5 157,1 138,5 126,2 107,2 90,7 64,8
226,2 214,7 192,3 179,3 161,0 127,4 110,5 91,2 76,5 55,4
229,7 218,8 196,9 187,2 169,5 137,8 117,5 98,6 82,6 61,6
228,8 218,1 196,5 186,7 169,0 138,1 117,9 97,3 80,7 57,9
229,2 215,1 192,1 183,4 166,6 134,8 115,8 97,8 81,4 59,7
259,4 240,7 211,0 184,6 169,3 148,2 135,5 117,6 99,2 73,7
229,4 217,8 196,1 187,9 171,0 142,3 121,7 102,5 85,6 61,3
228,5 215,1 191,8 181,9 166,5 144,5 126,6 107,6 91,4 66,4
236,5 218,3 192,3 176,7 160,3 137,6 121,0 102,5 86,9 63,0
233,3 214,6 190,2 179,2 163,0 139,3 120,4 102,0 86,1 64,4
232,1 220,9 198,9 189,9 173,3 141,7 120,0 99,4 81,4 58,6
233,6 213,8 187,6 169,6 154,1 132,2 117,1 98,5 81,7 57,4
239,5 221,2 195,1 170,5 154,4 131,0 115,7 98,9 82,9 59,2
242,9 229,8 205,0 187,1 171,2 148,2 131,9 114,6 98,6 71,8
220,5 209,1 187,5 178,7 162,9 140,2 124,8 105,7 89,3 63,2
241,3 223,1 196,1 179,0 164,2 142,9 126,3 108,7 92,6 67,2
200,8 170,6 143,3 131,0 116,6 95,2 84,6 66,0 53,5 35,8
219,2 204,1 181,8 170,9 151,2 113,0 94,2 76,6 61,3 41,0
219,5 210,6 189,9 177,9 156,5 116,6 96,8 76,0 60,0 39,6
223,8 208,9 186,3 175,7 156,1 122,8 106,2 85,6 70,9 50,8
212,3 201,1 180,2 171,7 154,9 125,1 105,0 83,2 65,8 43,6
203,1 193,1 173,0 163,2 143,7 104,4 87,3 68,5 56,2 37,7
216,5 206,3 186,0 179,0 163,4 140,0 120,1 97,1 79,4 57,4
226,0 211,3 188,3 177,0 157,5 123,1 102,8 83,1 67,5 48,2
217,4 204,0 182,9 173,9 155,6 116,7 95,7 73,7 58,5 38,4
249,4 218,6 184,9 149,5 133,7 113,1 98,0 79,0 63,6 43,7
225,8 211,6 185,6 161,6 145,7 124,3 110,8 90,4 79,6 57,3
223,6 209,2 183,1 159,4 143,6 125,4 116,3 96,7 83,7 61,3
245,2 226,4 198,2 161,9 146,4 128,3 117,7 97,7 81,3 58,3
255,2 240,0 212,8 168,6 153,8 135,0 125,8 107,5 89,3 65,4
226,4 215,6 192,4 178,5 161,7 136,7 122,3 99,6 81,2 55,1
208,8 197,4 175,0 158,6 144,1 124,0 112,9 91,6 79,3 58,5
237,3 222,0 198,7 189,8 172,9 142,4 122,3 102,0 83,9 60,1
215,6 204,8 184,8 174,1 152,3 117,7 94,8 75,2 60,2 35,1
228,6 218,6 195,8 181,7 161,3 122,2 102,6 80,9 64,5 44,4
260,0 248,1 222,3 206,2 187,0 151,9 123,4 99,7 80,2 57,9
211,1 197,9 177,1 166,7 148,3 117,4 100,9 78,9 63,7 37,7
219,3 208,5 187,3 177,7 160,4 131,0 112,1 91,2 74,6 49,1
237,5 227,4 205,1 193,3 173,2 131,4 107,9 88,1 71,2 50,3
228,2 214,5 189,6 179,7 161,3 113,5 96,8 79,9 67,5 49,9
233,2 211,7 187,0 174,4 155,1 118,1 89,1 66,2 52,7 35,8
194,3 186,9 166,2 154,7 136,5 98,2 82,3 65,2 54,4 37,8
205,3 196,6 174,4 162,0 141,8 96,8 79,8 63,8 53,7 37,1
200,7 192,0 171,0 160,3 145,4 108,2 89,4 71,9 60,1 44,0
221,0 212,1 189,5 174,1 152,5 108,3 87,9 69,4 56,3 38,3
178,9 169,8 149,3 137,6 117,5 81,1 68,7 53,7 45,9 29,1
178,9 169,8 149,3 137,6 117,5 81,1 68,7 53,7 45,9 29,1
208,2 192,8 170,7 158,7 140,9 112,1 96,0 77,9 64,8 45,5
221,4 203,4 180,1 167,4 148,5 112,0 93,6 75,3 59,9 39,2
224,3 214,9 193,9 186,2 169,5 139,1 119,7 96,9 77,5 52,3
229,3 210,5 187,1 178,3 161,7 141,7 127,5 98,3 88,5 68,9
216,1 207,9 187,2 177,3 161,0 123,8 105,6 86,6 70,7 47,8
224,8 206,5 184,1 174,8 158,0 126,1 103,8 83,7 67,7 47,3
241,7 226,2 205,2 195,3 177,6 143,0 116,0 92,6 72,3 52,0
227,8 215,7 192,1 176,9 155,3 111,3 88,8 70,6 57,2 39,4
217,9 207,5 187,0 179,1 164,3 142,6 123,7 100,0 75,3 50,0
220,4 203,4 180,0 167,2 150,4 121,8 95,5 72,5 54,8 34,0
221,3 201,9 178,2 166,5 145,9 111,8 93,0 72,7 57,1 36,3
224,8 211,5 191,2 182,0 161,5 127,1 105,9 85,8 68,5 45,9
193,9 182,1 161,5 155,1 140,6 120,3 105,1 87,6 76,6 55,0
196,4 183,8 162,1 150,5 133,0 94,9 76,2 57,0 44,1 26,2
209,6 198,1 176,9 166,8 148,0 107,6 84,6 64,5 50,2 32,3
215,1 203,7 181,9 170,3 152,5 112,2 88,7 69,3 53,4 33,3
226,6 216,1 193,7 182,5 164,0 127,2 106,0 85,9 69,3 48,9
215,2 202,9 180,4 168,3 148,4 111,3 92,4 72,5 56,4 35,7
218,5 206,7 184,9 175,7 159,3 135,9 120,3 99,3 83,8 57,3
218,6 205,8 184,7 175,4 159,1 131,3 111,5 87,0 66,0 40,7
222,8 210,6 188,9 179,5 163,2 135,7 116,4 96,2 80,2 57,5
184,8 169,7 147,4 135,3 117,7 89,0 75,5 57,8 48,5 32,3
186,9 173,3 150,5 135,9 114,0 75,9 61,9 48,6 40,2 25,0
194,8 184,4 161,3 148,9 130,9 97,5 81,5 63,2 52,0 35,7
227,7 217,7 197,0 187,4 169,6 138,3 116,8 96,2 79,2 54,3
243,6 231,4 208,1 197,0 178,6 142,0 119,8 98,8 79,7 56,5
172,9 166,7 145,0 134,5 113,0 71,5 56,5 41,3 32,9 18,9
249,3 231,4 202,9 176,0 160,4 137,5 126,3 110,6 93,5 69,5
230,7 220,2 198,6 188,4 170,4 135,7 113,7 93,2 74,8 52,2
233,1 221,5 199,7 192,2 177,2 153,0 131,9 113,4 95,5 69,4
247,2 232,5 209,3 198,2 181,9 142,4 119,7 97,6 77,3 54,8
217,4 205,5 183,7 170,2 147,5 101,7 83,3 65,4 52,0 32,5
223,0 204,1 179,6 169,5 153,3 129,0 111,5 91,0 75,1 53,2
221,0 208,1 185,5 176,1 159,7 135,3 114,6 93,7 78,5 55,1
231,8 214,3 190,3 176,3 155,8 119,7 100,4 81,1 66,0 45,7
232,3 221,8 200,3 189,6 171,5 136,6 115,9 92,0 76,0 53,4
235,9 222,0 199,4 188,4 171,9 143,3 123,3 103,6 86,3 62,0
246,5 235,1 211,7 200,4 183,0 146,3 125,0 103,8 84,0 61,7
241,4 228,6 202,0 190,5 170,3 134,3 114,5 95,6 78,8 52,1
231,5 219,9 197,4 183,7 161,2 123,0 103,1 82,3 68,3 47,8
230,8 216,6 193,7 179,2 159,1 109,8 79,8 61,0 48,4 29,7
225,8 215,7 194,7 184,0 166,3 136,2 116,5 95,9 79,4 55,0
226,4 207,7 184,2 173,2 158,0 124,6 102,2 79,7 62,8 42,7
230,7 216,7 193,7 180,5 163,0 131,1 112,0 93,9 77,1 52,9
231,5 209,8 183,5 163,7 148,5 125,6 110,9 93,1 78,3 55,7
219,3 207,8 185,6 176,0 158,5 123,0 100,8 81,4 64,6 42,7
226,2 212,8 190,4 178,7 158,3 121,4 101,4 78,6 63,5 43,8
237,4 220,3 194,2 164,9 148,8 129,9 119,8 101,5 86,3 61,7
222,2 207,8 185,8 173,6 158,7 130,2 104,8 77,8 56,8 34,9
218,8 201,9 179,3 167,6 149,9 113,7 96,2 76,1 62,8 43,2
234,2 216,1 190,7 176,0 159,1 133,4 115,9 97,0 82,0 59,7
228,2 214,6 191,2 177,4 156,1 116,5 96,4 76,9 61,1 40,7
229,7 217,1 194,5 185,1 168,7 142,8 122,2 103,0 87,5 62,9
227,3 216,1 194,5 182,4 163,7 130,4 110,4 89,2 73,4 51,5



[span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']VBR [NEW][/b][/u][/span]

Code: [Select]
V0	V1	V2	V3	V4	V5	V6	V7	V8	V9

234,3 221,8 194,6 181,7 167,0 129,5 109,0 85,3 69,5 48,6
253,6 240,6 210,8 171,6 160,0 140,5 125,2 103,4 86,0 56,4
266,8 258,7 230,3 200,7 184,4 157,5 143,4 125,7 99,4 67,7
261,3 249,5 217,7 178,0 166,7 148,3 134,6 112,8 94,3 69,2
216,5 202,1 175,7 153,5 140,5 108,6 93,1 77,4 65,9 44,1
190,0 165,1 135,1 119,5 106,2 78,3 66,0 51,8 45,0 26,2
218,3 207,4 181,9 173,1 159,6 127,1 107,4 85,0 70,1 49,4
220,2 211,6 186,9 178,1 166,2 133,2 106,3 76,4 60,6 37,9
218,9 204,1 178,0 167,4 150,9 111,1 93,4 72,6 57,9 36,5
229,2 216,9 188,6 158,9 147,3 123,6 98,4 67,8 49,4 25,6
221,6 213,5 188,7 177,8 161,5 127,8 106,0 83,0 68,5 47,2
215,7 206,1 180,7 165,4 147,2 107,2 89,1 66,9 54,1 33,2
245,4 220,7 191,4 175,1 159,8 127,6 109,9 93,1 81,2 60,1
214,4 205,6 181,2 171,4 156,9 123,9 104,4 81,2 66,6 46,8
213,5 195,3 167,6 156,1 141,9 113,3 96,0 74,9 60,7 42,3
242,8 228,9 201,5 182,8 171,2 144,6 123,7 98,3 76,3 43,2
212,2 196,7 169,5 156,8 142,0 108,2 90,6 68,2 53,9 33,8
216,8 198,5 172,6 164,4 152,8 125,0 104,5 79,9 64,7 44,6
219,0 209,8 184,9 174,8 160,5 128,3 107,9 83,1 67,3 47,2
220,3 206,8 180,3 169,8 157,4 124,9 104,0 77,5 64,1 45,9
225,1 219,0 193,7 182,0 169,8 140,1 118,8 94,7 78,0 54,3
231,5 222,3 195,9 179,2 166,0 137,6 115,2 88,3 70,0 46,1
218,7 201,8 173,7 159,1 145,1 113,4 97,3 78,9 65,7 45,7
214,3 195,8 167,0 150,7 134,2 102,3 87,0 68,0 56,8 36,7
211,9 203,4 178,5 163,6 142,1 91,5 72,4 52,7 38,1 18,3
217,8 207,0 181,3 169,4 152,6 112,6 93,1 71,5 58,6 38,2
225,7 213,2 187,9 181,6 171,1 142,0 117,4 90,8 73,9 52,2
218,7 207,6 182,2 166,3 149,5 115,1 97,3 75,0 61,4 39,9
216,3 202,9 175,8 161,3 145,4 109,2 90,5 67,1 53,5 34,9
234,1 221,9 194,4 178,2 166,2 141,1 123,3 102,4 86,5 63,5
228,0 212,4 184,5 170,2 153,7 120,7 100,9 79,8 66,6 47,1
223,7 211,4 184,9 170,7 153,0 115,9 97,4 74,4 60,4 39,6
236,2 220,2 191,3 175,7 162,1 130,8 113,2 93,9 79,2 57,7
231,5 207,5 176,9 158,6 143,7 112,3 95,4 75,7 64,3 42,7
233,7 223,1 196,9 186,8 174,2 140,3 116,0 90,2 72,7 50,0
223,1 217,7 191,2 166,2 156,4 139,8 129,0 111,5 94,2 67,3
222,5 211,7 186,1 176,7 165,2 139,3 120,6 98,8 85,0 62,7
223,1 204,8 177,0 166,9 154,0 127,7 112,1 91,9 80,6 59,9
214,0 200,8 174,5 162,9 150,6 119,1 96,7 73,0 58,5 32,9
213,5 206,0 181,2 171,3 159,6 134,0 118,2 94,6 78,3 49,3
225,0 213,5 186,6 173,3 163,1 144,1 130,3 111,3 94,4 70,6
212,9 201,3 175,3 163,5 149,4 118,8 101,8 78,0 64,8 44,4
216,6 207,3 182,5 172,2 157,0 123,1 103,1 78,9 63,5 41,7
219,3 209,7 183,7 171,0 154,4 117,8 98,0 75,0 60,2 37,4
218,2 198,5 170,6 156,6 141,5 111,4 94,4 74,0 61,3 43,2
205,6 197,9 174,7 169,8 159,3 137,2 115,1 90,1 75,0 53,8
200,8 196,0 173,1 164,2 152,5 126,4 110,0 88,2 74,1 51,6
224,7 214,0 187,7 176,4 163,4 136,0 117,4 95,3 79,8 56,1
227,3 207,8 179,9 167,7 154,3 111,4 85,8 62,0 46,6 21,7
238,3 224,5 194,6 173,1 162,7 145,0 131,6 109,4 93,0 64,3
225,6 213,5 186,9 173,8 160,1 129,3 112,2 90,0 74,9 51,9
226,0 213,4 187,1 177,6 164,7 136,1 117,3 95,2 79,7 58,5
222,8 212,9 187,6 178,3 165,6 137,0 117,8 93,9 77,7 54,7
220,4 206,4 180,2 171,7 159,7 131,4 113,6 93,6 78,0 56,8
258,9 243,8 210,8 184,5 173,6 153,5 140,7 121,4 102,9 75,7
224,0 213,1 187,9 180,7 168,4 142,1 121,6 99,3 82,8 58,3
224,9 212,8 185,8 177,1 166,6 145,8 127,3 105,4 89,4 65,3
237,6 219,6 189,4 174,4 162,5 141,1 124,0 102,3 86,5 61,2
233,9 212,2 183,4 173,9 162,2 139,3 119,9 98,5 83,4 62,8
225,5 213,6 188,0 179,6 167,9 139,0 117,7 93,9 77,1 56,1
234,7 216,2 186,4 169,1 157,8 136,4 120,5 98,9 81,9 55,5
240,0 225,5 195,3 171,7 159,9 137,0 120,4 101,8 85,2 58,1
238,9 228,5 200,6 182,8 171,4 150,0 133,9 115,2 99,6 72,3
220,8 210,1 184,5 177,0 166,2 144,9 128,7 106,3 88,9 60,7
245,6 224,8 192,9 176,5 166,1 145,8 129,3 108,2 93,0 66,0
200,8 170,5 138,7 128,1 117,1 95,2 84,5 63,3 50,2 31,6
216,2 200,1 173,4 161,6 145,8 110,2 92,2 71,4 56,9 36,2
214,6 205,9 181,0 168,4 151,7 115,0 95,8 71,5 56,1 35,4
216,1 205,8 180,1 169,9 154,5 122,8 106,5 82,9 68,2 46,7
211,2 202,7 178,0 170,8 157,9 128,0 106,7 79,7 62,0 38,8
202,6 191,1 166,6 156,1 140,7 103,6 86,5 65,3 53,5 33,2
210,7 203,3 179,4 174,0 163,0 139,8 118,9 92,4 75,9 55,0
220,9 207,9 180,8 169,8 154,5 121,7 101,7 78,6 64,1 44,5
215,9 202,6 177,7 169,4 154,6 116,7 95,8 69,7 55,1 34,1
254,5 221,4 183,9 149,0 137,3 116,3 100,3 78,0 62,0 39,4
223,8 213,4 185,3 161,9 150,0 128,8 114,5 92,3 80,6 55,0
219,6 212,5 184,9 161,5 149,7 131,3 121,2 100,4 86,5 60,7
237,6 229,8 202,2 164,7 153,3 134,7 122,8 102,4 85,5 59,1
244,3 244,5 215,9 170,4 159,9 142,2 132,2 113,0 94,5 67,6
222,4 217,9 192,6 179,3 166,8 142,1 126,7 100,0 82,4 52,5
204,3 199,2 174,5 158,7 147,7 127,8 116,0 93,1 80,5 57,4
227,2 214,7 188,9 180,8 168,6 140,0 120,0 96,4 79,6 56,0
214,5 208,4 184,1 173,3 154,2 118,8 95,4 71,6 55,6 27,8
223,3 207,8 180,2 164,8 150,5 115,2 97,4 72,9 58,8 40,2
242,3 231,9 204,3 185,5 171,3 138,7 113,6 86,0 71,1 55,2
211,1 200,6 175,3 165,6 150,6 119,6 102,7 76,5 59,9 31,5
213,8 206,1 181,5 173,0 160,4 132,0 112,2 86,8 69,7 44,8
226,0 216,6 190,3 177,7 162,6 126,1 104,0 80,6 65,3 46,6
230,2 201,4 170,4 158,6 145,6 105,2 91,1 72,6 62,9 46,0
227,5 209,6 181,8 169,7 154,8 116,0 86,6 59,5 48,5 32,0
201,6 177,5 150,3 136,6 123,3 91,5 78,1 59,8 50,7 34,0
214,6 189,9 161,4 146,0 130,3 91,4 75,0 58,1 49,9 32,9
208,1 178,7 151,7 140,5 130,3 100,2 84,6 65,1 55,3 40,8
219,6 204,0 175,8 159,1 142,3 103,4 85,1 64,1 52,3 34,2
188,9 168,5 141,7 126,9 110,8 78,9 67,2 51,0 43,8 23,9
188,9 168,5 141,7 126,9 110,8 78,9 67,2 51,0 43,8 23,9
199,4 184,8 159,2 145,6 133,3 108,1 93,3 73,5 61,4 42,0
221,6 201,4 173,7 160,8 145,7 112,0 93,9 71,8 56,4 34,1
215,9 210,0 185,7 178,4 166,6 138,1 119,6 92,2 72,9 47,6
218,1 204,8 178,3 171,2 159,2 139,7 124,5 99,4 90,2 70,0
218,5 202,2 177,0 166,3 154,4 121,9 104,9 82,6 66,5 41,3
217,6 200,6 174,3 165,1 152,6 121,8 99,9 76,9 62,9 44,3
231,1 218,3 192,5 181,1 168,2 136,7 111,7 83,3 66,2 48,5
218,3 206,3 177,2 161,8 144,9 106,5 86,1 64,8 52,9 35,3
217,1 208,3 184,2 178,7 168,9 145,7 124,6 93,6 69,2 45,2
220,2 206,7 179,6 167,6 154,9 125,2 97,9 68,1 51,4 28,1
217,8 202,0 174,7 163,2 145,9 111,9 93,1 68,5 52,7 31,3
218,6 209,8 185,3 175,3 157,9 125,8 105,4 80,7 64,0 40,3
194,4 181,4 157,3 152,5 142,2 122,3 106,2 88,9 74,3 53,5
205,2 184,9 156,9 143,4 129,2 93,0 74,2 52,0 40,1 21,3
208,3 197,7 171,9 161,7 146,7 107,0 83,4 58,9 46,6 27,3
212,4 202,7 176,7 164,8 151,1 111,2 87,8 64,6 49,2 28,2
220,3 206,7 180,2 168,5 154,8 121,7 102,0 78,5 63,8 45,3
213,9 201,5 174,0 161,5 145,9 111,2 92,6 68,1 52,5 31,1
218,1 207,9 182,2 174,1 162,6 140,0 123,4 99,3 82,6 53,8
216,4 207,9 182,9 175,4 163,6 134,5 113,6 82,6 61,1 35,2
220,0 208,2 182,4 173,8 162,1 136,6 117,4 93,8 77,7 54,5
194,1 169,3 140,4 126,4 113,0 86,4 73,4 54,1 45,9 27,5
202,3 176,9 146,4 127,3 109,7 73,9 60,3 45,5 38,3 18,9
206,6 182,3 152,6 138,1 124,9 93,9 78,8 58,5 48,7 31,9
220,1 212,4 188,1 179,1 166,1 137,4 116,2 92,2 75,1 50,5
228,8 220,2 194,7 183,5 169,8 135,8 115,4 91,3 74,2 53,0
192,5 172,1 141,4 124,6 107,4 70,3 55,4 38,1 32,3 12,8
250,2 235,3 202,7 175,2 163,9 142,4 130,6 113,9 96,5 70,1
220,3 212,8 188,7 178,5 164,9 132,0 110,3 86,3 69,5 48,3
228,3 217,3 191,8 185,7 175,5 153,0 131,6 110,0 92,2 67,0
236,0 225,4 199,8 189,7 177,6 137,1 115,7 90,1 71,9 51,5
220,2 204,6 178,6 163,2 144,3 101,0 82,8 61,7 48,8 27,0
219,7 201,5 173,3 164,7 153,0 128,7 111,2 87,3 71,4 49,2
219,7 207,0 180,7 172,9 160,9 137,3 115,9 91,8 75,7 51,9
222,7 206,4 178,6 164,0 147,9 115,0 97,2 75,0 60,9 41,8
224,7 216,7 191,8 180,9 167,3 134,1 114,2 87,7 73,1 49,0
228,3 215,6 189,2 178,7 166,6 139,3 119,6 97,7 82,1 60,1
232,2 223,7 198,4 187,0 174,3 139,0 119,6 94,4 78,4 59,4
236,7 219,7 189,2 176,6 162,2 129,6 111,5 87,9 71,7 47,4
226,0 215,5 189,2 172,8 154,8 120,6 102,6 79,6 65,2 43,5
225,4 214,0 187,0 172,4 157,1 109,3 78,6 55,7 44,5 24,3
222,0 213,0 188,0 177,9 165,0 137,3 117,7 93,4 76,7 51,0
225,3 207,0 180,0 170,5 159,1 125,3 102,6 75,3 59,2 38,3
229,1 217,6 190,8 178,0 164,2 132,6 113,1 91,7 74,7 48,9
227,5 207,8 178,0 158,2 147,0 125,2 109,5 90,7 76,5 54,1
216,1 206,7 180,4 171,0 157,7 123,4 101,0 77,3 60,5 37,7
218,3 207,6 181,4 169,0 153,0 118,9 100,0 73,7 59,3 40,0
236,0 223,9 195,8 166,2 155,0 136,3 124,8 104,6 88,6 60,6
222,2 210,0 184,1 173,2 162,9 133,7 107,1 72,2 51,9 29,7
219,1 199,4 172,5 160,8 147,2 113,2 96,2 73,5 60,4 38,4
231,7 213,9 184,6 170,9 158,4 134,4 117,0 96,0 80,7 57,4
219,2 207,5 180,1 164,9 148,7 112,9 94,1 70,6 55,7 36,3
221,8 212,6 186,9 178,6 166,8 142,5 122,0 100,6 85,1 60,1
221,9 210,4 184,7 172,7 159,0 128,7 109,8 85,5 69,9 48,0

The bitrate curves look like this:

(http://foobar2000.net/divers/LAME/397b1/LAME397VBRold.png)

(http://foobar2000.net/divers/LAME/397b1/LAME397VBRnew.png)

Each curve correspond to a -Vx mode.


To sum up:

Code: [Select]
VBR NEW			
AVERAGE MIN MAX
V0 221,89 188,90 266,80
V1 208,40 165,10 258,70
V2 181,46 135,10 230,30
V3 167,69 119,50 200,70
V4 154,21 106,20 184,40
V5 124,25 70,30 157,50
V6 105,81 55,40 143,40
V7 83,17 38,10 125,70
V8 68,29 32,30 102,90
V9 46,03 12,80 75,70
Code: [Select]
VBR OLD			
AVERAGE MIN MAX
V0 224,67 172,90 269,30
V1 211,18 166,70 252,50
V2 188,23 143,30 225,00
V3 174,60 131,00 206,20
V4 156,66 113,00 187,00
V5 124,79 71,50 153,00
V6 106,08 56,50 137,50
V7 80,46 41,30 122,60
V8 71,00 32,90 99,20
V9 49,45 18,90 73,10
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Vietwoojagig on 2005-09-20 15:01:44
Quote
To sum up:

Code: [Select]
VBR NEW    
      AVERAGE     MEDIAN        MIN        MAX
V0     221,89     220,30     188,90     266,80
V1     208,40     207,90     165,10     258,70
V2     181,46     182,20     135,10     230,30
V3     167,69     170,60     119,50     200,70
V4     154,21     156,95     106,20     184,40
V5     124,25     127,35      70,30     157,50
V6     105,81     106,90      55,40     143,40
V7      83,17      82,95      38,10     125,70
V8      68,29      66,95      32,30     102,90
V9      46,03      46,35      12,80      75,70
Code: [Select]
VBR OLD  	
      AVERAGE     MEDIAN        MIN        MAX
V0     224,67     225,95     172,90     269,30
V1     211,18     211,95     166,70     252,50
V2     188,23     189,75     143,30     225,00
V3     174,60     176,50     131,00     206,20
V4     156,66     158,00     113,00     187,00
V5     124,79     127,20      71,50     153,00
V6     106,08     107,85      56,50     137,50
V7      80,46      87,65      41,30     122,60
V8      71,00      71,60      32,90      99,20
V9      49,45      50,25      18,90      73,10
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=328359\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I prefere the median instead of the average. It's the one in the middle and its value is more resistent against outliers.

But appart from that: great work! Now we only have to find someone who is willing to do the same thing with the other music-styles 
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: guruboolez on 2005-09-20 15:16:48
Quote
I prefere the median instead of the average. It's the one in the middle and its value is more resistent against outliers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=328373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Corrected

Code: [Select]
VBR OLD					||	VBR NEW				
AVERAGE MEDIAN MIN MAX || AVERAGE MEDIAN MIN MAX
V0 224,7 226,0 172,9 269,3 || V0 221,9 220,3 188,9 266,8
V1 211,2 211,9 166,7 252,5 || V1 208,4 207,9 165,1 258,7
V2 188,2 189,7 143,3 225,0 || V2 181,5 182,2 135,1 230,3
V3 174,6 176,5 131,0 206,2 || V3 167,7 170,6 119,5 200,7
V4 156,7 158,0 113,0 187,0 || V4 154,2 157,0 106,2 184,4
V5 124,8 127,2 71,5 153,0 || V5 124,3 127,3 70,3 157,5
V6 106,1 107,8 56,5 137,5 || V6 105,8 106,9 55,4 143,4
V7 86,5 87,6 41,3 122,6 || V7 83,2 82,9 38,1 125,7
V8 71,0 71,6 32,9 99,2 || V8 68,3 67,0 32,3 102,9
V9 49,5 50,3 18,9 73,1 || V9 46,0 46,3 12,8 75,7

EDIT: V7 "old" average bitrate: 80.5 -> 86.5 (typo error).
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Klyith on 2005-09-20 16:02:53
Quote
I prefere the median instead of the average. It's the one in the middle and its value is more resistent against outliers.
Mode never gets any love.
Also the phpbb code blocks are annoying just too small for the whole table.


Back to athaa-sensitivity: Its applications are fairly limited, and the bitrate increase is IMHO too much and too unpredictable to justify being incorporated into the presets. And yet it doesn't take up bitrate comparable to moving up one quality level. It's kind of stuck in no-man's-land.

Maybe vbr-new + athaa-sensitivity would equalize out back to the same bitrate as the old presets. But I also would be worried about regressions with it. Frankly the presets are great, but I think it is too much to expect them to be perfect for all music without increasing bitrate demands too much.

So I think it should stay as it is in the alphas, possibly with a note about use. "Setting --athaa-sensitivity to 1 can improve quality with some types of very quiet music at the cost of some bitrate increase."
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: guruboolez on 2005-09-20 16:14:16
Quote
Back to athaa-sensitivity: Its applications are fairly limited, and the bitrate increase is IMHO too much and too unpredictable to justify being incorporated into the presets.

And? VBR is by itself unpredicatable. Just take a look on the datas I've just posted. On the contrary, the --athaa-sensitivity 1 command is just limiting the amplitude of the variation, by preventing the encoder to use too low bitrate.

Quote
Maybe vbr-new + athaa-sensitivity would equalize out back to the same bitrate as the old presets. But I also would be worried about regressions with it. Frankly the presets are great


I'd suggest you to test current presets with and without --athaa-sensitivity 1... They're far to be great.
Most often, there's no difference in bitrate. But when a difference occurs, be sure that the additionnal bits are worth.

Quote
So I think it should stay as it is in the alphas, possibly with a note about use. "Setting --athaa-sensitivity to 1 can improve quality with some types of very quiet music at the cost of some bitrate increase."


In other word, you're suggesting that people should use an alpha encoder for safety?!
BTW, I recall that the quality gain is noticeable on quit PASSAGE, and not only with quiet tracks. As long as music still have some dynamic range, the current low/mid bitrate presets are not fully safe to use if compared to ABR/CBR.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Lyx on 2005-09-20 17:15:19
Quote
In other word, you're suggesting that people should use an alpha encoder for safety?!

I agree. Telling users to use an alpha to make use of a custom switch is the wrong solution. I also agree with the decision of the lame devs to remove --athaa-sensitivity from non-alpha builds. This is the kind of switch about which users should not need to care. If its necessary, then the encoder should automatically use it. If not, then it shouldn't. So, the question is only if and when it should be defaulted, not if the switch should be reimplemented.

The user should not need to "tune" an encoder. This is the job of the encoder. An encoder which needs additional switches for tuning is flawed and needs to be fixed. The exception obviously are developer- and tester-builds which by definition are meant to experiment.

- Lyx
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2005-09-20 17:50:09
Quote
V4  154,2  157,0  106,2  184,4
V5  124,3  127,3   70,3   157,5


This is a very dramatic difference.
Surely something could be done to bridge the gap between this two quality settings?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Klyith on 2005-09-20 19:45:46
Quote
I'd suggest you to test current presets with and without --athaa-sensitivity 1... They're far to be great.
Most often, there's no difference in bitrate. But when a difference occurs, be sure that the additionnal bits are worth.
I will do so. But I can really only test at trying them out and seeing bitrate results. I am horrible at ABX quality tests. I never make quality opinions that would require TOS8, because I know I can't back it up.

But I have limited material to test on. My classical collection is only about 30 cds, heavily weighted to 18th-19th century. If this is something that is most evident on your harpsichord music, I give up. (I hate the harpsichord ) I'll also throw some other stuff at it to see if I can get it to trigger in other circumstances... Some electronic music might do the trick.

Quote
In other word, you're suggesting that people should use an alpha encoder for safety?!
BTW, I recall that the quality gain is noticeable on quit PASSAGE, and not only with quiet tracks.
Not that people should stay with alpha, only that this needs to be looked at in more detail. Until a decision is made, why not keep the switch exposed to keep the people who want to use a-s 1 happy? And yes, I am aware of how the encoder works in general principles.


Quote
I agree. Telling users to use an alpha to make use of a custom switch is the wrong solution. I also agree with the decision of the lame devs to remove --athaa-sensitivity from non-alpha builds. This is the kind of switch about which users should not need to care. If its necessary, then the encoder should automatically use it. If not, then it shouldn't. So, the question is only if and when it should be defaulted, not if the switch should be reimplemented.
But if the decision is made not to make it default, what do the people like guru who use and like this switch do?

Quote
The user should not need to "tune" an encoder. This is the job of the encoder. An encoder which needs additional switches for tuning is flawed and needs to be fixed. The exception obviously are developer- and tester-builds which by definition are meant to experiment.

- Lyx
Then why is cbr 128 still the default encode? You have to enter at least one option to get a better quality result. But yes, I guess that too many switches exposed in the --longhelp is why we still have people who come in to tell us about their wonderful 20 parameter long encoding string. Still, there's a problem in principle that you can't have transparent quality without a lot of bits. When you need to encode to lower bitrate, something has to get left out.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Lyx on 2005-09-20 23:27:03
Quote
Quote
The user should not need to "tune" an encoder. This is the job of the encoder. An encoder which needs additional switches for tuning is flawed and needs to be fixed. The exception obviously are developer- and tester-builds which by definition are meant to experiment.

- Lyx
Then why is cbr 128 still the default encode? You have to enter at least one option to get a better quality result...

There are two misunderstandings here:

1. I wasn't implying that with an encoder the user should not need to specify any options at all. What i meant was that the user should only need to tell the encoder *what* he wants, but not "how to achieve it". The latter part is the job of the encoder. In practice, this means that in an optimal world only quality/target bitrate should be *necessary* with bitrate-upper-limit(for streaming), number of channels and samplerate being other optional parameters. Thus, the user should specify what he needs and the encoder shall come up with the best way to deliver it.

2. I am aware that lame still has lots of switches which imho shouldn't be there. Same for some defaults. But that does that mean that you may never "start somewhere" with improving the situation? It's a process, not a 0/1-switch.

Concerning your question what shall happen if --athaa-sensitivity is NOT made the default, although evidence is brought up that it should be: Then the encoder is flawed and should be fixed. Exposing a developer-switch so that the users can fix it is not the solution. In the worst case(which i highly doubt will happen) you will have an official lame release without it being the default, and then a ha.org-modified version which has it by default. This, from a psychological as well as objective point of view(the world does not just consist of ha.org - hardly any outsider will care about the minor difference) would still be better than "letting the users fix it by exposing the switch".

It plain simply comes down to this: if the defaults are wrong, its a bug. You dont fix bugs by requiring users to patch the code.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Alex B on 2005-09-21 12:54:05
Here's my little LAME 3.97b1 bitrate test. I gathered some rock/pop/latin/jazz/electronic tracks from my lossless archive. The selection was quite random, but I left out certain tracks that would have probably resulted extremely high or low bitrates. I ended up with 25 diverse sample tracks. I should have included more tracks, but this was about the best I could do this time.

I encoded them using V values from 0 to 9 with and without VBR New. Encoding each set of 25 tracks from the Monkey's Audio source files took about 13-14 minutes with VBR Old and 8-10 minutes with VBR New using a P4/2.8GHz. I didn't bother to measure exact times, because I used the PC for various other things during the encoding.


[!--sizeo:4--][span style=\"font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\"][!--/sizeo--]VBR OLD  (-V 0 ... -V 9)[/size]

Code: [Select]
[b]	V0	V1	V2	V3	V4	V5	V6	V7	V8	V9[/b]
252 232 204 172 157 139 127 112 93 69
256 230 199 179 162 139 122 105 90 66
261 235 206 160 143 125 118 103 86 64
255 238 212 197 181 149 129 110 92 68
237 222 195 181 166 146 135 119 101 75
241 218 195 150 135 120 112 97 83 62
262 238 213 154 139 122 114 98 82 62
250 229 202 169 154 136 123 106 87 60
221 206 184 167 151 127 114 96 82 56
268 235 203 159 144 128 120 105 85 64
227 203 179 147 133 118 109 94 81 62
236 211 185 150 135 118 109 95 80 60
225 209 185 174 158 130 111 92 77 54
253 240 216 205 188 165 146 128 107 78
266 248 226 162 146 128 118 102 85 64
244 228 206 199 182 146 125 106 88 65
246 232 207 187 171 151 136 117 95 69
234 207 176 151 135 118 109 93 77 55
261 234 206 164 148 131 123 108 90 67
229 204 180 168 154 129 108 89 75 52
224 198 174 140 126 110 102 88 76 57
268 239 212 155 140 124 116 103 87 68
245 215 186 148 133 117 110 94 80 61
248 236 211 184 166 145 136 121 102 77
218 206 187 180 164 143 124 108 91 67
(http://www.adart.pp.fi/ha/pix/vbrold.png)


[!--sizeo:4--][span style=\"font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\"][!--/sizeo--]VBR NEW (-V 0 --vbr-new ... -V 9 --vbr-new)[/size]

Code: [Select]
[b]	V0N	V1N	V2N	V3N	V4N	V5N	V6N	V7N	V8N	V9N[/b]
251 234 203 169 159 141 129 113 95 70
259 229 194 173 160 139 121 103 89 66
255 238 207 161 148 131 122 107 89 65
246 233 205 190 179 147 126 106 90 67
236 223 193 181 169 151 138 122 106 78
238 221 195 150 139 124 115 100 85 63
256 241 216 155 143 126 117 102 85 63
249 229 199 166 155 137 123 105 86 61
220 209 183 166 154 132 119 98 82 54
266 237 203 155 144 128 120 105 87 66
226 205 179 146 136 120 111 96 82 62
232 213 184 150 138 121 111 96 82 61
219 204 177 167 155 129 109 87 72 52
246 238 212 201 189 165 147 126 106 78
258 251 228 162 150 132 121 105 88 65
233 222 197 190 178 143 123 101 85 62
247 235 206 188 176 156 140 117 96 68
236 210 176 152 139 122 111 95 78 55
261 238 207 164 152 135 126 111 93 69
223 202 175 165 154 130 107 86 72 51
219 200 174 140 129 113 105 91 77 58
263 243 214 154 143 127 119 106 90 70
244 217 184 147 135 119 111 95 82 62
244 241 215 188 174 153 143 127 107 79
208 201 178 173 162 141 121 103 87 66
(http://www.adart.pp.fi/ha/pix/vbrnew.png)


[!--sizeo:4--][span style=\"font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\"][!--/sizeo--]SUMMARY[/size]

Code: [Select]
[b]OLD	V0	V1	V2	V3	V4	V5	V6	V7	V8	V9[/b]
Min 218 198 174 140 126 110 102 88 75 52
Max 268 248 226 205 188 165 146 128 107 78
Average 245 224 198 168 152 132 120 104 87 64
Median 246 229 202 167 151 129 118 103 86 64
[b]NEW V0N V1N V2N V3N V4N V5N V6N V7N V8N V9N[/b]
Min 208 200 174 140 129 113 105 86 72 51
Max 266 251 228 201 189 165 147 127 107 79
Average 241 225 196 166 154 134 121 104 88 64
Median 244 229 197 165 154 132 121 103 87 65
All together and a table with track list:

(http://www.adart.pp.fi/ha/pix/bitratetable_thn.png) (http://www.adart.pp.fi/ha/pix/bitratetable.gif)  (http://www.adart.pp.fi/ha/pix/exceltable_thn.gif) (http://www.adart.pp.fi/ha/pix/exceltable.png)

Click the images to enlarge.


[!--sizeo:1--][span style=\"font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\"][!--/sizeo--]Edit: fixed the image links. Edit 2: fixed them again.[/size]
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: [proxima] on 2005-09-21 13:37:00
This should give a rough estimation of the average bitrate with VBR presets.
Also sfb21 bloat is very noticeable looking at the graphs, starting from -V2 some tracks are bloated (7,10,15). Very interesting 
Thanks to guruboolez and Alex B for these graphs.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: askoff on 2005-09-21 14:00:41
Quote
Quote
V4  154,2  157,0  106,2  184,4
V5  124,3  127,3   70,3   157,5


This is a very dramatic difference.
Surely something could be done to bridge the gap between this two quality settings?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328405"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't say it's so dramatic. If you use CBR settings, there's also 128kbps and 160kbps and nothing between them.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Lyx on 2005-09-21 14:09:18
Quote
Quote
Quote
V4  154,2  157,0  106,2  184,4
V5  124,3  127,3   70,3   157,5


This is a very dramatic difference.
Surely something could be done to bridge the gap between this two quality settings?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328405"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't say it's so dramatic. If you use CBR settings, there's also 128kbps and 160kbps and nothing between them.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328574"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

IMHO the problem is not that the gap between V4 and V5, but the neglible difference in terms of average bitrate between V4 and V3. I'd say make V3 the new "medium", but with slightly higher quality than in the past, then lower the quality of V4 bit.

- Lyx
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Vietwoojagig on 2005-09-21 16:02:29
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
V4  154,2  157,0  106,2  184,4
V5  124,3  127,3   70,3   157,5


This is a very dramatic difference.
Surely something could be done to bridge the gap between this two quality settings?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328405"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't say it's so dramatic. If you use CBR settings, there's also 128kbps and 160kbps and nothing between them.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328574"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

IMHO the problem is not that the gap between V4 and V5, but the neglible difference in terms of average bitrate between V4 and V3. I'd say make V3 the new "medium", but with slightly higher quality than in the past, then lower the quality of V4 bit.

- Lyx
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=328580"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, you are right, if you make a linear regression using the median and vbr-new, you get something like bitrate=226.01-19.815*vbr-mode.

In this case, the highest difference is V4 which is 10kbits to high. But only if you want a linear relation between vbr-mode and target-bitrate.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: rutra80 on 2005-10-03 15:18:33
Quote
Please let me repeat AndyMutz's question:

Quote
when using --vbr-new the -q switch produces exact same results, no matter if i use q0,q1,q2,q3 or q4. is that intended?

Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks for your help!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=328061\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here it produces different results. Try putting -q in the middle (after -V and before --vbr-new).

EDIT: I tried -q0 vs -q5. Values from 0 to 4 indeed seem to produce the same results, from 6 to 9 too. So it looks like effectively there are three -q levels with --vbr-new: 0-4, 5, 6-9.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: AndyMutz on 2005-10-05 13:05:23
Quote
EDIT: I tried -q0 vs -q5. Values from 0 to 4 indeed seem to produce the same results, from 6 to 9 too. So it looks like effectively there are three -q levels with --vbr-new: 0-4, 5, 6-9.

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=331284"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i would still like to know if this is intended or if it's just a bug which will be corrected in one of the next versions..

-andy-
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Madrigal on 2005-10-05 13:23:28
Quote
i would still like to know if this is intended or if it's just a bug which will be corrected in one of the next versions..

-andy-
You might want to try posting your question again, in this (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=32288) thread.

Regards,
Madrigal
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-10-05 13:33:50
Intended
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: benc on 2005-10-07 10:34:28
I notice that MP2 decoding is still broken in 3.97b1:

Code: [Select]
D:\tmp>lame
LAME 32bits version 3.97 (beta 1, Sep 29 2005) (http://www.mp3dev.org/)

usage: lame [options] <infile> [outfile]

   <infile> and/or <outfile> can be "-", which means stdin/stdout.

Try:
    "lame --help"           for general usage information
or:
    "lame --preset help"    for information on suggested predefined settings
or:
    "lame --longhelp"
 or "lame -?"              for a complete options list

D:\tmp>lame --decode test.mp2
Error reading headers in mp3 input file test.mp2.

D:\tmp>lame --decode --mp2input test.mp2
Error reading headers in mp3 input file test.mp2.


Is this something that could be fixed for the next/final release?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-07 15:45:53
Quote
I notice that MP2 decoding is still broken in 3.97b1:

Is this something that could be fixed for the next/final release?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332326"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I've uploaded an amended .exe only including the corrected get_audio.c source to Rarewares mp3 section.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-08 13:54:10
I have revisited the decoding issue and discovered that decoding has actually been broken since 3.94beta. The 3.94 beta was OK, but 3.95 and onwards is screwed.

The version I uploaded yesterday was fixed for mp2 but this broke mp3 decoding!!

I have just uploaded a new version, with amended get_audio.c source, with mp2 and mp3 decoding working correctly.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: benc on 2005-10-08 14:47:48
Interestingly the version of LAME I have on my linux installation works fine for MP2 decoding even though it says it's 3.96.1. I'm too much of a newbie to compile these things myself so I probably installed it from the livna RPM repository (I am using Fedora Core 3).
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-10-08 15:18:03
MP1/2 decoding are disabled by default because of the poor error resilience of our decoder.
Enabling mp1/2 decoding sometimes break mp3 decoding because the decoder finds mp1/2 sync words inside mp3 files.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: rjamorim on 2005-10-08 15:23:20
Maybe you can replace your decoder with foobar's fixed mpg123?

Or maybe mpadec (http://mpadec.sourceforge.net/), which is also based in mpg123.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-10-08 15:29:01
Quote
Maybe you can replace your decoder

Maybe we can find a brave soul to do it?

Replacing the decoder is planned, but low priority.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Yakhobian on 2005-10-09 14:11:41
Quote
Quote

EDIT: I tried -q0 vs -q5. Values from 0 to 4 indeed seem to produce the same results, from 6 to 9 too. So it looks like effectively there are three -q levels with --vbr-new: 0-4, 5, 6-9.

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=331284"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i would still like to know if this is intended or if it's just a bug which will be corrected in one of the next versions..

-andy-
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=331823"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quote
Intended
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=331835"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi all, first post here so please go easy on me
I'm curious as to know what the differences are now between the 3 settings and which is the best to choose?  If -V2/--preset standard uses q3 by default and -h changes it to q2, then I would presume the top option out of the 3 should be chosen. However, which of the previous settings have q0-q4 merged to? If it has gone to q2 or q3, does this mean the extra lossless compression in q0 is no longer used? (Forgive me if I've got my facts wrong on the previous version)

Thanks guys and I look forward to being able to contribute to the community 
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: zan2828 on 2005-10-10 01:37:27
I noticed some strange behavior using the new 3.97b1 compared to 3.90.3. When I encode using EAC, the bitrate setting dropdown box  adds a -b switch to the -V 2 --vbr-new command line.

For example, if I select 128kbps the base bitrate of the mp3 will be 128. I have confirmed this using different bitrates in the dropdown box. I have read the faq stating the dropdown box in EAC compression options has no effect on the command line except if 320kbps is selected, however, it seems with 3.97b1 this does not apply i.e. the dropdown box does affect base bitrates.

I have tried to select "User Defined Encoder" but under that setting LAME just pops up for a split second and disappears when it tries to encode.

Granted I have only used these two versions of LAME so far so I don't know in which exact version this "bug" popped up. Or am i mistaken and this behavior is intended?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: skelly831 on 2005-10-10 01:49:27
Quote
I noticed some strange behavior using the new 3.97b1 compared to 3.90.3. When I encode using EAC, the bitrate setting dropdown box  adds a -b switch to the -V 2 --vbr-new command line.

For example, if I select 128kbps the base bitrate of the mp3 will be 128. I have confirmed this using different bitrates in the dropdown box. I have read the faq stating the dropdown box in EAC compression options has no effect on the command line except if 320kbps is selected, however, it seems with 3.97b1 this does not apply i.e. the dropdown box does affect base bitrates.

I have tried to select "User Defined Encoder" but under that setting LAME just pops up for a split second and disappears when it tries to encode.

Granted I have only used these two versions of LAME so far so I don't know in which exact version this "bug" popped up. Or am i mistaken and this behavior is intended?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=333119"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Maybe when you use "User Defined Encoder", you don't add "%s %d" to the end of your command line.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Dr. TaaDow on 2005-10-10 02:09:38
I was testing out 3.97b1 and I keep getting the following error on all tracks I'm trying to encode...

Command: C:\Apps\RazorLame\Lame.exe -V 2 "C:\Wavs\Johnny Fiasco Feat Dulce Caramelo - Move It (Original Mix).wav" "C:\Wavs\Johnny Fiasco Feat Dulce Caramelo - Move It (Original Mix).mp3"
LAME 3.97 (beta 1, Sep 29 2005) 32bits (http://www.mp3dev.org/)
CPU features: MMX (ASM used), 3DNow! (ASM used), SSE (ASM used), SSE2
Using polyphase lowpass filter, transition band: 18671 Hz - 19205 Hz
Encoding C:\Wavs\Johnny Fiasco Feat Dulce Caramelo - Move It (Original Mix).wav
      to C:\Wavs\Johnny Fiasco Feat Dulce Caramelo - Move It (Original Mix).mp3
Encoding as 44.1 kHz VBR(q=2) j-stereo MPEG-1 Layer III (ca. 7.3x) qval=3
RazorLame encountered an unknown message from LAME while trying to encode "C:\Wavs\Johnny Fiasco Feat Dulce Caramelo - Move It (Original Mix).wav"!

Encoded 0 files in 0:00:52
There was an unexpected LAME message for one file, please check log for error messages.

I've also tried using -V 2 --vbr-new and it give the same error

has anyone else had this problem with 3.97b1 ?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Lyx on 2005-10-10 02:14:07
Quote
I was testing out 3.97b1 and I keep getting the following error on all tracks I'm trying to encode...

Try to do a search and you will find a thread explaining the "error".

Short version: there was no error. It's just razorlame having crappy "problem-detecion": it just treats everything which it doesn't know yet as a problem.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Kuriboid on 2005-10-10 02:24:56
Quote
I noticed some strange behavior using the new 3.97b1 compared to 3.90.3. When I encode using EAC, the bitrate setting dropdown box  adds a -b switch to the -V 2 --vbr-new command line.

For example, if I select 128kbps the base bitrate of the mp3 will be 128. I have confirmed this using different bitrates in the dropdown box. I have read the faq stating the dropdown box in EAC compression options has no effect on the command line except if 320kbps is selected, however, it seems with 3.97b1 this does not apply i.e. the dropdown box does affect base bitrates.

I have tried to select "User Defined Encoder" but under that setting LAME just pops up for a split second and disappears when it tries to encode.

Granted I have only used these two versions of LAME so far so I don't know in which exact version this "bug" popped up. Or am i mistaken and this behavior is intended?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=333119")

It's just something EAC does for the "LAME MP3 Encoder" setting. Switch to "User Defined Encoder" and add %s %d like skelly831 suggested.

Quote
Quote
I was testing out 3.97b1 and I keep getting the following error on all tracks I'm trying to encode...

Try to do a search and you will find a thread explaining the "error".

Short version: there was no error. It's just razorlame having crappy "problem-detecion": it just treats everything which it doesn't know yet as a problem.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=333132"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here's the RazorLame fix: [a href="http://www.dors.de/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=1743#1743]http://www.dors.de/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=1743#1743[/url]
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Dr. TaaDow on 2005-10-10 02:31:13
the fix worked... thanks for the info
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-10 14:47:00
Quote
I have revisited the decoding issue and discovered that decoding has actually been broken since 3.94beta. The 3.94 beta was OK, but 3.95 and onwards is screwed.

The version I uploaded yesterday was fixed for mp2 but this broke mp3 decoding!!

I have just uploaded a new version, with amended get_audio.c source, with mp2 and mp3 decoding working correctly.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=332643"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have taken yet a further look at the decoding and have now uploaded another version that now outputs wave files from decoded mp2 and mp3 files that contain the same number of samples as the outputs from foobar2000. Error checking, etc., remains as before. The d/l includes the amended get_audio.c and main.c sources.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Madrigal on 2005-10-10 16:05:02
Quote
Here's the RazorLame fix:
An even better "fix" is to abandon RazorLame in favor of Speek's ALL2LAME (http://members.home.nl/w.speek/all2lame.htm), which never has this problem, and doesn't need to be updated with each new version of LAME.

Regards,
Madrigal
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-12 12:19:15
Quote
I have taken yet a further look at the decoding and have now uploaded another version that now outputs wave files from decoded mp2 and mp3 files that contain the same number of samples as the outputs from foobar2000. Error checking, etc., remains as before. The d/l includes the amended get_audio.c and main.c sources.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=333258"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And another version is now at Rarewares. I believe this version correctly handles 'enc_padding', decoding to the correct number of output wave samples from mp3 input. The outputs from decoding mp2 and mp3 files are exactly the same size as from foobar2000.

Amended source files are included.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: xmixahlx on 2005-10-12 16:46:57
why not just drop decoding in lame until you have a decoder worth including?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-10-12 17:03:40
Because we need it for the frame analyser.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-13 16:26:00
Quote
And another version is now at Rarewares. I believe this version correctly handles 'enc_padding', decoding to the correct number of output wave samples from mp3 input. The outputs from decoding mp2 and mp3 files are exactly the same size as from foobar2000.

Amended source files are included.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=333732"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What I think will be the final version of this is now at Rarewares. Includes exe, amended source files and diff files for the amendments.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-10-13 16:50:47
Quote
What I think will be the final version of this is now at Rarewares. Includes exe, amended source files and diff files for the amendments.

I have the feeling that you are assuming that the mp2 delay is the one of current TooLame version and the mp3 delay the one of current Lame version.
Regarding mp2, this might cut the beginning of files produced with another encoder, and regarding mp3 the situation is the same unless you are reading the encoder delay field of the header.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2005-10-13 16:54:15
For the non-technical people, Gabriel: does this affect MP3 encodes? I mean, do I have to do it again with the "fixed" compile?

Sorry if this is a dumb question.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-10-13 16:57:34
This does not affect encoding, we are just discussing about decoding changes.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-13 17:20:53
Quote
Quote
What I think will be the final version of this is now at Rarewares. Includes exe, amended source files and diff files for the amendments.

I have the feeling that you are assuming that the mp2 delay is the one of current TooLame version and the mp3 delay the one of current Lame version.
Regarding mp2, this might cut the beginning of files produced with another encoder, and regarding mp3 the situation is the same unless you are reading the encoder delay field of the header.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=334080"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, the mp2 delay is that for the current tooLAME. Unless I have misunderstood, I believe that foobar uses the same value and I did assume that it should, therefore, be OK. Clearly, that could be a source of contention.

The mp3 delay I've used is the one extracted in 'lame_decode1_headersB_clipchoice' in mpglib_interface.c. Is that OK to use?

I am more than willing to be educated about these subjects!!
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Gabriel on 2005-10-13 17:40:35
MP3: if you extracted the delay from the header, it should be fine.

MP2: we were using the minimum theorical encoder delay, to be sure to not cut usefull samples. Using the tooLame delay hardcoded would cut samples if you are decoding a file produced with an encoder using a smaller delay than tooLame.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-14 15:25:08
Quote
MP3: if you extracted the delay from the header, it should be fine.

MP2: we were using the minimum theorical encoder delay, to be sure to not cut usefull samples. Using the tooLame delay hardcoded would cut samples if you are decoding a file produced with an encoder using a smaller delay than tooLame.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=334095"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Gabriel. I'll put the mp2 delay back as it was and leave the user to add an encoder delay.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-15 14:57:05
OK, the final, final version is now at Rarewares!!  The written decoded mp3 file now contains the correct number of samples and is of the same length as the original wave file. The console display now also indicates the number of samples being skipped at the end of the file. mp2 decoding has been reverted as it was originally.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Drenholm on 2005-10-15 19:41:13
Has the actual decoding library (MAD, mpglib, whichever) been altered?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-15 20:52:45
Quote
Has the actual decoding library (MAD, mpglib, whichever) been altered?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=334639"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It's mpglib, exactly as currently used in the standard compile. My compile simply makes use of information that the standard compile does not.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Drenholm on 2005-10-16 09:48:54
Okay, thanks for replying. Does it return bit-identical output to fb2k or did you simply mean it returns the same number of samples?
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-10-16 10:30:53
Quote
Okay, thanks for replying. Does it return bit-identical output to fb2k or did you simply mean it returns the same number of samples?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=334785"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They appear not to be bit identical, but I suspect that has something to do with fb2k's internal processing of the samples. IIRC, fb2k massages the samples internally at higher resolution.

However, if you compare the decoded wave files with the original wave file, then they both differ from the original in exactly the same numbers and positions of missing/different samples.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Drenholm on 2005-10-16 10:31:45
Thanks again john33.
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: TakuSkan on 2005-12-05 05:08:11
Where has the Windows version of Lame 3.97b1 gone from the Rarewares MP3 file library? (http://www.rarewares.org/mp3.html) 

The Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase page on the recommended LAME version (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lame_Compiles) states that v3.97b is what's currently recommended.

Has the recommended LAME complile gone from beta1 to beta2?

The 1st post at the top of this thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=37011&hl=3.97++lame++released#) from Sep 11 2005 states that 3.97b1 was the recommended compile at that point.  Has that changed since the last post in this thread on Oct 16 2005?  Or is there just some missing link on the Rarewares page to a Windows v3.97b1 download at this point?

There was a mention of this recently here. (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=39332&view=findpost&p=347252)  But as yet there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer.

Thx

TS
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: Madrigal on 2005-12-05 08:21:22
Quote
Has the recommended LAME complile gone from beta1 to beta2?
It's taken years for HA to recommend anything since 3.90.3 final, and are we now expecting that recommendation to be updated for each new beta ?

Don't hold your breath.

Regards,
Madrigal
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: TakuSkan on 2005-12-05 22:28:56
Quote
It's taken years for HA to recommend anything since 3.90.3 final, and are we now expecting that recommendation to be updated for each new beta ?
Okay... mia culpa... an admittedly poorly thought out question.  But more to the point again... where did the Rarewares link to download 3.97b1 go... and/or where can it be downloaded now?

TS
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-12-06 10:24:20
Quote
Quote
It's taken years for HA to recommend anything since 3.90.3 final, and are we now expecting that recommendation to be updated for each new beta ?
Okay... mia culpa... an admittedly poorly thought out question.  But more to the point again... where did the Rarewares link to download 3.97b1 go... and/or where can it be downloaded now?

TS
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=347939"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There is no reason to use the beta 1 version. By definition, subsequent beta versions are bug fixes rather than new features, as indicated:
Quote
LAME 3.97 beta 2  November 26 2005

    * Gabriel Bouvigne:
          o Fixed an initialization error when input is not using a standard sampling frequency
          o Fixed a possible assertion failure in very low bitrate encoding
          o Slight change regarding ATH adjustment with V5
          o Reinstated bit reservoir for 320kbps CBR
          o ReplayGain analysis should now be faster when encountering silent parts
    * Takehiro Tominaga:
          o Fixed a possible link problem of assembly code

IIRC, the ATH change was as an attempt to correct an issue that was apparent using V5, and the remainder are really in the category of bug fixes.

The recommendation should be updated to beta 2 since, otherwise, we'll be in the position of still recommending a beta over the release simply because the release hasn't had 'n' hours of testing!!
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: xmixahlx on 2005-12-06 20:32:31
well, there are a few quality changes to 3.97b2 that should be tested, and, of course there is always the possibility that something is screwed up unintentionally - so i can see why someone would ask the question...


later
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: TakuSkan on 2005-12-09 21:56:55
Quote
well, there are a few quality changes to 3.97b2 that should be tested, and, of course there is always the possibility that something is screwed up unintentionally
Does that mean that there were, as you said, "quality changes to 3.97b2" that weren't part of 3.97b1?  Or is john33 correct in saying that the only changes were just bug fixes that don't affect the overall quality?

It's still odd that there's no copy of Windows 3.97b1 available on the Rarewares website (http://www.rarewares.org/mp3.html), though there are versions of 3.97b1 available for MacOS X, Linux x86, Solaris SPARC, and HP-UX on PA-RISC.

TS
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: john33 on 2005-12-09 22:17:45
The Change Log is as quoted above as between beta 1 and beta 2:
Quote
red = features and bug fixes which affect quality
blue = features and bug fixes which affect speed
black = usability, portability, other

LAME 3.97 beta 2   November 26 2005

    * Gabriel Bouvigne:
          o Fixed an initialization error when input is not using a standard sampling frequency
          o Fixed a possible assertion failure in very low bitrate encoding
          o Slight change regarding ATH adjustment with V5
          o Reinstated bit reservoir for 320kbps CBR
          o ReplayGain analysis should now be faster when encountering silent parts
    * Takehiro Tominaga:
          o Fixed a possible link problem of assembly code
Title: Lame 3.97 beta 1 released
Post by: xmixahlx on 2005-12-10 01:54:52
Quote
It's still odd that there's no copy of Windows 3.97b1 available on the Rarewares website (http://www.rarewares.org/mp3.html), though there are versions of 3.97b1 available for MacOS X, Linux x86, Solaris SPARC, and HP-UX on PA-RISC.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=349035"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

...that's just because john33 packaged 3.97b2 quickly, while roberto hasn't repackaged for the other arches...

seriously tho, i doubt there will be much (or any) difference unless you are using -V5 or -b 320


later
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