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Hosted Forums => foobar2000 => General - (fb2k) => Topic started by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-02 08:19:54

Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-02 08:19:54
Hey folks,

Is there a way to adjust the replaygain algorithm to normalized to a level that's not so quiet?

If that's not doable, I'm looking for a script or module that will take all my replaygained songs and reduce the ReplayGain reduction on the songs by 50%.  Say, for example, I do album replaygain on entire album, I'd like to then go back and change them by 50% or 75% etc.

Thanks!
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: hoelk on 2005-07-02 09:25:49
Quote
Hey folks,

Is there a way to adjust the replaygain algorithm to normalized to a level that's not so quiet?

If that's not doable, I'm looking for a script or module that will take all my replaygained songs and reduce the ReplayGain reduction on the songs by 50%.  Say, for example, I do album replaygain on entire album, I'd like to then go back and change them by 50% or 75% etc.

Thanks!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310454"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


theres a bar under foobar/preferences/playback that does exactly what you want
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-02 15:45:49
Quote
Quote
Hey folks,

Is there a way to adjust the replaygain algorithm to normalized to a level that's not so quiet?

If that's not doable, I'm looking for a script or module that will take all my replaygained songs and reduce the ReplayGain reduction on the songs by 50%.  Say, for example, I do album replaygain on entire album, I'd like to then go back and change them by 50% or 75% etc.

Thanks!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310454"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


theres a bar under foobar/preferences/playback that does exactly what you want
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310457"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yeah, but that will have foobar adjust the playback when playing the song, but that won't save any new value to the song.  I need it changed in the song to enable to me transcode the new value to my iPod.

Thanks!
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Garf on 2005-07-02 16:25:26
The ReplayGain values in the song are informative about the actual loudness of the song. Changing them makes *zero* sense.

You want whatever moves the files to the iPod to be fixed so you can adjust target level, certainly not the ReplayGain data itself!
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: hunted on 2005-07-02 21:02:57
If you are using foo_pod you can adjust the preamp with or without soundcheck data for your ipod.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: saratoga on 2005-07-03 00:34:56
Use foo_pod to copy the files to your ipod, and you can adjust the gain.  You can also use foo_pod to increase the power of your ipod's amplifier IIRC so that all songs are louder, even without replaygain.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-03 14:19:35
Quote
Use foo_pod to copy the files to your ipod, and you can adjust the gain.  You can also use foo_pod to increase the power of your ipod's amplifier IIRC so that all songs are louder, even without replaygain.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=310561")


Yup, and I believe there is an issue with how this is implemented actually, that's the exact nature of my query here.

Please check out:

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19156&st=1500&p=308845&#entry308845]http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....45&#entry308845[/url]

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=308855 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19156&view=findpost&p=308855)

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=309127 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19156&view=findpost&p=309127)
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-03 19:03:40
Quote
The ReplayGain values in the song are informative about the actual loudness of the song. Changing them makes *zero* sense.

You want whatever moves the files to the iPod to be fixed so you can adjust target level, certainly not the ReplayGain data itself!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310498"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Are you sure about that?  Looks to me that ReplayGain is the difference between the actual loudness of the song and some target dB, specifically 83 db.  Since it's this difference that is stored in the file, this is what I'm looking to adust.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: saratoga on 2005-07-03 22:02:44
Quote
Quote
Use foo_pod to copy the files to your ipod, and you can adjust the gain.  You can also use foo_pod to increase the power of your ipod's amplifier IIRC so that all songs are louder, even without replaygain.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=310561")


Yup, and I believe there is an issue with how this is implemented actually, that's the exact nature of my query here.

Please check out:

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19156&st=1500&p=308845&#entry308845]http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....45&#entry308845[/url]

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=308855 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19156&view=findpost&p=308855)

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=309127 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19156&view=findpost&p=309127)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310665"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



I don't quite get your point.  Yes the replaygain values are calculated relative to some target volume, however you can adjust what that target volume is already.  If that still isn't loud enough for you, then you probably have some very high impediance headphones or an ipod purchased in Europe and should consider a headphone amplifier or a pair that are more easilyl driver by a portable player.  With ordinary headphones (SR-60s or HD-280s) the ipod can get painfully loud.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-04 04:49:32
Quote
I don't quite get your point.  Yes the replaygain values are calculated relative to some target volume, however you can adjust what that target volume is already.  If that still isn't loud enough for you, then you probably have some very high impediance headphones or an ipod purchased in Europe and should consider a headphone amplifier or a pair that are more easilyl driver by a portable player.  With ordinary headphones (SR-60s or HD-280s) the ipod can get painfully loud.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310748"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mike,

First off, thanks for taking the time to listen to me babble. Here is my issue:

With SoundCheck off on the iPod, music does get painfully loud, so it's not a hardware issue.

With SoundCheck on, using foo_pod's preamp, I can't get it that loud.  What I've found is that the iPod volume when using 100% preamp on SoundChecked sounds maxes out at 50% of the iPod physical volume. As I increase the volume on the iPod past 50%, there is no difference in the actual volume.

Since the way Aero does the preamp is to put a value in the volume field (the higher the % preamp value, the higher the volume value), I can only assume that the iPod determines the volume ceiling (the point at which it won't allow anymore actual increase in volume) based on the volume field + the physical volume setting.  Once the volume value + volume slider value = volume ceiling, it will not allow actual volume to increase.

When SoundCheck is off, there is no volume variable to contend with, so you get the full specturm of volume adjustment on the iPod.

What I want to do is get around the fact that the Ipod uses the value in the volume field for the volume ceiling, and use a modifed SoundCheck value in the song instead.  Hope this makes sense.

Thanks!
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Garf on 2005-07-04 08:14:56
Quote
Quote
The ReplayGain values in the song are informative about the actual loudness of the song. Changing them makes *zero* sense.

You want whatever moves the files to the iPod to be fixed so you can adjust target level, certainly not the ReplayGain data itself!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310498"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Are you sure about that?  Looks to me that ReplayGain is the difference between the actual loudness of the song and some target dB, specifically 83 db.  Since it's this difference that is stored in the file, this is what I'm looking to adust.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310712"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Modifying the value *in the file* makes no sense. If you change it, it no longer represents the correct difference [1]. That's why changing it there is wrong.

[1] Because that value is specced to be relative to 89dB.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-04 19:55:25
Quote
Modifying the value *in the file* makes no sense. If you change it, it no longer represents the correct difference [1]. That's why changing it there is wrong.

[1] Because that value is specced to be relative to 89dB.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=310839")


My point is that I don't want the difference to be to 83dB (which is what the replaygain website says the target is, not 89dB, please see [a href="http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calibration.html)]http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calibration.html)[/url].  I'd like the calculated difference to be from a higher dB, so I don't have to adjust the preamps as much.  In any event, I agree that the problem should be solved at the iPod level, but I was looking for a temporary work around.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: saratoga on 2005-07-04 22:44:37
Quote
Quote
I don't quite get your point.  Yes the replaygain values are calculated relative to some target volume, however you can adjust what that target volume is already.  If that still isn't loud enough for you, then you probably have some very high impediance headphones or an ipod purchased in Europe and should consider a headphone amplifier or a pair that are more easilyl driver by a portable player.  With ordinary headphones (SR-60s or HD-280s) the ipod can get painfully loud.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310748"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mike,

First off, thanks for taking the time to listen to me babble. Here is my issue:

With SoundCheck off on the iPod, music does get painfully loud, so it's not a hardware issue.

With SoundCheck on, using foo_pod's preamp, I can't get it that loud.  What I've found is that the iPod volume when using 100% preamp on SoundChecked sounds maxes out at 50% of the iPod physical volume. As I increase the volume on the iPod past 50%, there is no difference in the actual volume.

Since the way Aero does the preamp is to put a value in the volume field (the higher the % preamp value, the higher the volume value), I can only assume that the iPod determines the volume ceiling (the point at which it won't allow anymore actual increase in volume) based on the volume field + the physical volume setting.  Once the volume value + volume slider value = volume ceiling, it will not allow actual volume to increase.

When SoundCheck is off, there is no volume variable to contend with, so you get the full specturm of volume adjustment on the iPod.

What I want to do is get around the fact that the Ipod uses the value in the volume field for the volume ceiling, and use a modifed SoundCheck value in the song instead.  Hope this makes sense.

Thanks!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310806"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I really don't think this is a software problem.  I'm using soundcheck on all my files through foo_pod, and I can make my volume extremely loud.  Given that Replaygain is just normalizing down to 89 dB, I can't imagine that it would make much difference for you.  A few dB just isn't going to account for the kind of change you're seeing.  What kind of headphones are you using?  Are you sure you're not doing something wrong?

Otherwise I'm not really sure how you're getting this problem.  It doesn't make sense that just turning on soundcheck would yeild a massive change in volume.

I suppose you could look at that software for the European ipods that allows you to adjust the volume limit.  It may remove the volume cap you seem to be hitting.  Though I'm not sure, since I can't seem to get that problem on my ipod.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Garf on 2005-07-05 00:25:17
Quote
Quote
Modifying the value *in the file* makes no sense. If you change it, it no longer represents the correct difference [1]. That's why changing it there is wrong.

[1] Because that value is specced to be relative to 89dB.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=310839")


My point is that I don't want the difference to be to 83dB (which is what the replaygain website says the target is, not 89dB, please see [a href="http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calibration.html)]http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calibration.html)[/url]. 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310964"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The website is oudated, the level *is* 89dB.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-05 14:29:59
Quote
Quote
Quote
Modifying the value *in the file* makes no sense. If you change it, it no longer represents the correct difference [1]. That's why changing it there is wrong.

[1] Because that value is specced to be relative to 89dB.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=310839")


My point is that I don't want the difference to be to 83dB (which is what the replaygain website says the target is, not 89dB, please see [a href="http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calibration.html)]http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calibration.html)[/url]. 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310964"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The website is oudated, the level *is* 89dB.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=311012"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That's unfortunate.  Perhaps someone should update the site.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-05 17:00:54
Quote
I really don't think this is a software problem.  I'm using soundcheck on all my files through foo_pod, and I can make my volume extremely loud.  Given that Replaygain is just normalizing down to 89 dB, I can't imagine that it would make much difference for you.  A few dB just isn't going to account for the kind of change you're seeing.  What kind of headphones are you using?  Are you sure you're not doing something wrong?

Otherwise I'm not really sure how you're getting this problem.  It doesn't make sense that just turning on soundcheck would yeild a massive change in volume.

I suppose you could look at that software for the European ipods that allows you to adjust the volume limit.  It may remove the volume cap you seem to be hitting.  Though I'm not sure, since I can't seem to get that problem on my ipod.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310991"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


OK, thanks Mike, I'll play around with it to see if I can figure out what's wrong.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ReD-BaRoN on 2005-07-06 00:02:19
Quote
I really don't think this is a software problem.  I'm using soundcheck on all my files through foo_pod, and I can make my volume extremely loud.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=310991"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

One more question if I may, what program to you use to calculate your replaygain, and what is the format of the files (mp3, flac, etc) you calc replaygain on?
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Scrith on 2005-07-20 10:42:58
This seems like a reasonable request (how can I just make ReplayGain not use this 89db that someone decided upon, which in some cases is reducing the volume significantly on an album that does not need any volume adjustment in order to prevent clipping?).

I've noticed that ReplayGain (using ReplayGain in Foobar2000, scan as album) will sometimes be off by as much as 6db for an album (I arrived at this number because, for a particular CD I'm thinking of, I can set the preamp in Foobar to +6db while using ReplayGain and it still never clips)...this can't be a good thing.  By reducing the signal level by 6db (for no reason in this case, because the original CD never clips when not using ReplayGain) some audio information will be lost when playing the CD back with ReplayGain enabled.

I realize this is done to create some uniformity across muliple albums...but I really think most people would rather have maximum audio quality for an album rather than be inconvenienced by a slight adjustment to the volume once per album.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: foosion on 2005-07-20 10:50:22
Quote
I've noticed that ReplayGain (using ReplayGain in Foobar2000, scan as album) will sometimes be off by as much as 6db for an album (I arrived at this number because, for a particular CD I'm thinking of, I can set the preamp in Foobar to +6db while using ReplayGain and it still never clips)...this can't be a good thing.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314842"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ReplayGain attempts to normalize the perceived loudness, not the amplitude, so your argument is moot.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Lyx on 2005-07-20 11:12:28
Quote
I've noticed that ReplayGain (using ReplayGain in Foobar2000, scan as album) will sometimes be off by as much as 6db for an album (I arrived at this number because, for a particular CD I'm thinking of, I can set the preamp in Foobar to +6db while using ReplayGain and it still never clips)...this can't be a good thing.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=314842")

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=35591&view=findpost&p=313937]http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=313937[/url]

Also, search the forums on "overcompression".

You are right, this isn't a good thing... in your *music*!

- Lyx
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Scrith on 2005-07-20 11:15:12
So if ReplayGain decides that an album needs -10db for playback, the data it sends to my hardware for playback will have the same range of values it would have if ReplayGain were disabled?  There is no manipulation of the original data (which in this case never caused any problem) during playback with ReplayGain enabled?
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Scrith on 2005-07-20 11:22:45
Quote
You are right, this isn't a good thing... in your *music*!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314847"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, but I'm concerned about the case where I have an album that has been properly mastered.  In such a case, it seems like ReplayGain, which for this album probably shouldn't do anything, is causing me to turn up the volume to hear it at the same level that I would normally hear it at when not using ReplayGain, and I'm concerned I need to do this because it has effectively compressed the data a bit.

This concern is arising because I am trying to playback some tracks from well-mastered albums side-by-side with some from newer albums (which clip like crazy, and have lead me to start using ReplayGain to control the problem).
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: foosion on 2005-07-20 11:24:00
The audio data in the file is not altered by ReplayGain; the computed gain and peak values are stored as tags (exact handling depends on the format), and the gain is applied during playback to the audio stream that is sent to your soundcard.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Scrith on 2005-07-20 11:28:47
Quote
The audio data in the file is not altered by ReplayGain; the computed gain and peak values are stored as tags (exact handling depends on the format), and the gain is applied during playback to the audio stream that is sent to your soundcard.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314851"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Ah yes, I understand that.  Of course ReplayGain is not changing the data stored in the file (this is explained very well in the ReplayGain documentation).  When I express concern about the data being unnecessarily manipulated (compressed?) by ReplayGain, I mean the resulting data that is built using the data from ReplayGain, which is then ultimately sent to my sound hardware.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2005-07-20 12:10:02
http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/faq_quiet.html (http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/faq_quiet.html)

ReplayGain does exactly what it says it will do, to the best of "its" ability.

If you don't want to do that, don't use ReplayGain!

If you do use ReplayGain, it's going to turn the volume down on most modern CDs.

You can use the various sliders in the foobar preferences to add 6dB (for example) to the output level with ReplayGain if you want to.

Cheers,
David.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Scrith on 2005-07-20 19:01:04
Quote
http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/faq_quiet.html (http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/faq_quiet.html)
ReplayGain does exactly what it says it will do, to the best of "its" ability.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314858"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks for your reply.  I definitely understand why ReplayGain causes modern CDs to play at a lower level.  The solution it provides for these CDs is a great one, and is what has lead me to using ReplayGain.  The problem, again, is with an older (well-mastered) CD that was fine to begin with, and yet after ReplayGain is playing at a lower volume.  I realize I can try to figure out, for every album, the appropriate amound of preamp adjustment I need in order to restore it to something approximating its original levels...but that is extremely time consuming.

I guess what I'm suggesting is a new mode for ReplayGain...don't try to make everything play at 89db, just let everything play at its normal level unless there is a problem (and then only adjust it down by the necessary amount).
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: The Link on 2005-07-20 19:05:56
Quote
I guess what I'm suggesting is a new mode for ReplayGain...don't try to make everything play at 89db, just let everything play at its normal level unless there is a problem (and then only adjust it down by the necessary amount).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314933"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the "advanced limiter" is what you want. It does nothing to your music and only lowers amplitude just before clipping is detected. Replaygain doesn't seem to be what you want (and changing the conception to your needs doesn't make sense imho).

edit: perhaps "prevent clipping according to peak" in the playback preferences (i'm using 0.9) also does what you want
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: ssamadhi97 on 2005-07-21 01:22:26
Quote
I guess what I'm suggesting is a new mode for ReplayGain...don't try to make everything play at 89db, just let everything play at its normal level unless there is a problem (and then only adjust it down by the necessary amount).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314933"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

...how about just using *gasp* the volume knob?
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Scrith on 2005-07-21 03:55:48
Quote
[...how about just using *gasp* the volume knob?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314987"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


...
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: bug80 on 2005-07-21 15:51:00
Quote
I guess what I'm suggesting is a new mode for ReplayGain...don't try to make everything play at 89db, just let everything play at its normal level unless there is a problem (and then only adjust it down by the necessary amount).
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=314933")

The goal of Replaygain is to make all your music sound equally loud. In the case of what your suggesting, soft music should be amplified too much leading to serious clipping (as explained [a href="http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/faq_quiet.html]here[/url]).

Foobar2000 has two volume sliders: one for songs with RG info and one for without. I just turned the "with RG info" slider up with 6 dB, works perfectly.
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: Lyx on 2005-07-21 21:36:12
Quote
Yes, but I'm concerned about the case where I have an album that has been properly mastered.  In such a case, it seems like ReplayGain, which for this album probably shouldn't do anything, is causing me to turn up the volume to hear it at the same level that I would normally hear it at when not using ReplayGain
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=314850"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In that case, with a high probability it was *not* properly mastered. There are some exceptions with music which is naturally very saturated (ambient, shoegaze, etc.), but besides of those cases, a properly mastered album will not have an albumgain below -3db.

Other members already adressed the remaining points.

- Lyx
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: bug80 on 2005-07-27 15:14:38
Quote
a properly mastered album will not have an albumgain below -3db.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=315187"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Isn't that a bit high? Most of my mp3's that are RG'ed at -3 to -6 dB and sound fine to me. It's MP3's with -8 dB or lower that really suffer from bad mastering, to my ears.

But maybe my "young" ears are spoiled by listening at too much popmusic. 

Maybe a bit off topic, but most of the audio that is ReplayGained at -8 or even -12 dB is from the US. I once heard that music coming from the US is often "bitpushed" that much because of AM radio, is that true?
Title: Adjusting ReplayGain target level
Post by: krazy on 2005-07-29 04:21:29
Quote
a properly mastered album will not have an albumgain below -3db.[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=315187"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

bit of an arbitrary value, isn't it?
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