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Lossy Audio Compression => Ogg Vorbis => Ogg Vorbis - General => Topic started by: QuantumKnot on 2003-09-05 06:39:18

Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2003-09-05 06:39:18
Recommended Ogg Vorbis Encoders


Please check the more frequently updated wiki (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis) for recommended Ogg Vorbis encoders.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: dev0 on 2003-11-09 00:00:09
You should consider adding links to Garf's site (http://users.pandora.be/sjeng/vorbisgt3.html) and original compile (http://sjeng.org/ftp/vorbis/OggEncGT3b1.exe). I already did that for ReplayGain. Some people are a bit cautious about ICL compiles so it's always good to have alternatives available.

Another link you might want to add is Case's excellent guide (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/EAC/) and encoder component for foobar2000: foo_vorbisenc_gt3 (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/foobar2000/foo_vorbisenc_gt3.zip)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: mekon21 on 2003-11-10 12:26:14
@ QuantumKnot

Thanks for the effort, this has been long overdue.

Cheers
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Jaleel on 2003-11-26 16:36:02
What are the recommended Vorbis setting for 16k Vocal song? no music instrument, just voice.

Sample mp3 file for new encoding with Ogg (http://www.muslimin.com/modules.php?name=Quran_CD_Sample_Files&op=modload&file=index&l=8&p=Saad%20Said%20Al-Ghamidi%20-%20A/098%20-%20Surah%20Al-Baiyyinah.mp3&m=1)

I want to encode the source of above mp3 to be Ogg for online stream & downloadable.

I know realplayer have this feature, i doubt Ogg has it but let me ask anyway. Can i have 1 Ogg Vorbis file which stream to user at their selected bitrate?

for example with real audio file we can encode it and tell it to support 16k 24k 56k etc and we have only 1 file for that.  very cool.

Configurable SureStream™ Encoding — Cool Real Audio feature (http://www.realnetworks.com/products/producer/features.html)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: ScorLibran on 2003-11-27 02:19:55
It should also be noted that with the GT3b1 encoder, quality settings between 4.01 and 4.99 (inclusive) will give incremental increases in bitrate above what the 1.0.1 version would generate.

GT3b1 currently uses a nominal bitrate 20kbps higher for each quality level of 5 and above, but anything over -q 4 begins getting an increase as well.  A quality setting between 4 and 5 with GT3b1 will use a "portion" of the tuning enhancements, but not the "full effect" of those enhancements until you get to -q 5 or higher.

This can be noted, for instance, by encoding a track at -q 4.25 with v1.0.1, and the same track at -q 4.25 with GT3b1.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: vinu on 2003-11-29 01:19:51
QuantumKnot's "Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings" is a good attempt at giving newbies to Vorbis like myself an idea of what encoder to use. But there is no mention on what quality setting to actually use for transparency.

For example, what -q setting should I use in oggenc GT3b1 to get a quality equivalent to lame --alt-preset standard, for example?

Are there any recommended -q settings on this forum for the various versions of oggenc which give quality equivalent to the various --alt-preset settings in lame?

Adding this information to QuantumKnot's FAQ, if it exists, would go a long way to helping new Vorbis users not burn their fingers by encoding at too low or too high quality settings during their early migration days.

Regards,
Vinu.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2003-11-29 01:24:49
Quote
QuantumKnot's "Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings" is a good attempt at giving newbies to Vorbis like myself an idea of what encoder to use. But there is no mention on what quality setting to actually use for transparency.

For example, what -q setting should I use in oggenc GT3b1 to get a quality equivalent to lame --alt-preset standard, for example?

Are there any recommended -q settings on this forum for the various versions of oggenc which give quality equivalent to the various --alt-preset settings in lame?

Adding this information to QuantumKnot's FAQ, if it exists, would go a long way to helping new Vorbis users not burn their fingers by encoding at too low or too high quality settings during their early migration days.

Regards,
Vinu.

The problem is that 'transparency' is a very subjective thing and different people have different 'ears'.  For some who arent sensitive to pre-echo and stereo separation, -q 1 is 'transparent.  For' me, -q 4 may be 'transparent' while to others who are sensitive to the HF boost, -q 9 or 10 is still NOT 'transparent'.

Garf has recommended that you start at -q 5 in GT3b1 and if ABXing shows that its not transparent, continue moving up.  Personally, I use -q 5 when using GT3b1 and that's the lowest you can go to get the full benefits of his tunings.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Soren on 2003-12-10 17:55:29
Time to update for the merged ogg encoder (GTb2 based on 1.0.1) ?

Soren
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: sramov on 2004-02-16 13:09:40
Can anyone update dll's for the CDex into GT3b2 (recommended for all quality levels)?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-02-16 22:40:36
Quote
Can anyone update dll's for the CDex into GT3b2 (recommended for all quality levels)?

John33 will be doing those very soon.  Keep checking.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: john33 on 2004-02-16 22:53:11
I'll post links for these as I am still without ftp access to Rarewares!!
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: john33 on 2004-02-16 22:59:55
OK, I've made all the GT3b2 compiles that I've done so far available at: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jfe1205/gt3b2/ (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jfe1205/gt3b2/)

Nothing fancy!! Just a list of files. The names should be reasonably self-explanatory. I'll get these up to Rarewares just as soon as I can.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-02-16 23:03:03
I'm assuming the CDex dll's is the one named 'oggvorbis-dllsGT3b2.zip'?

*goes and downloads them*
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: john33 on 2004-02-16 23:08:14
Quote
I'm assuming the CDex dll's is the one named 'oggvorbis-dllsGT3b2.zip'?

*goes and downloads them*

Yep!!
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: OggZealot on 2004-02-17 02:37:14
It's great to see the 3 month after I asked it:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=15274& (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15274&)
the Vorbis sticky FAQ/Help is at last updated ...

I just wanna add my personnal feeling about it, I have a 150gig experience in Vorbis now & I just wanna tell that I disagree with pointing total ogg newbie to GT3B2 instead of pointing them to the last official version first.

GT3B2 is absolutly NOT the standard in Vorbis in the wild ... it is an advanced HA user toy ...

on 4000 vorbis rip in the wild ... you will found : 1 Garf tuned rip at best ...

so if you are a total Ogg Vorbis newbie try last official Monty version first ... & see if the quality is enough for you ... & there is many chance (95% I would say) that it will be enought for you ...

my "convert MPC/MP3 user to Vorbis" experience learn me that:
1: most Lame APS users switch to Vorbis V1.01 Q5 (95%)
2: most MPC Q5 (or HA readers) users switch to Vorbis GT3B2 Q6 (5%)

(Note: Lame users are very easy to convert while MPC users are very hard ...)

... so if you can't ABX audio artefacts, it is most likely that you will stick with V1.01 ...
I know more than 25 Ogg Vorbis ripper friends & several Vorbis networks ...

NONE of them is using neither GT3B1 nor GT3B2 ...

I don't say that Garf, QuantumKnot, aoTuVa maker & John33 work is bad ... it is GREAT indeed ... but it will only be usefull in two case IMVHO:
1: Monty include the tweak to the official version without the damn 20Kbps bitrate jump.
2: They fork & create their real own encoder tuned for 64to128==>movie & 128to256==> music which will have an harmonized bitrate jump & willl cover all the audio/video bitrate range ... if they would do so ... they should reduce the quality setting mapping to keep the parity with the official version ... then we will have the equivalent of what is Lame versus official MP3 ...

In the wild estimation:

Versions:
pre-RC3: 4%
RC3: 15%
V1.00: 70%
V1.01: 10%
post CSV: 1%
GT3B: 0%

Settings:
Q4: 5%
Q5: 65%
Q6: 20%
Q7: 2%
Q8: 2%
Other: 6%

... so the Ogg Vorbis Standard is clearly V1.01 Q5 ... & that is what I recommend to Ogg Vorbis newbies ...

Hope it Helps ... Thks QK
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-02-17 09:39:45
Point taken.  I'll include the official encoder as well for completeness.  However, there is no golden rule which says the 'standard' version has to be the recommended one or the best one. 

The purpose of this page is to let everyone know what is currently the best quality Vorbis encoder out there (whether it be for listening tests, archiving, etc.) and judging from the opinions of most people in the GT3b1 thread, Garf's tunings were superior to the official version.

The biggest factor in determining popularity is the amount of coverage.  Hence you see the Xiph.Org version everywhere since its got its own page on Vorbis.com while GT3b1, as you point out, is only known by the few who visit HA.org.    And for those newbies who do visit HA.org, they probably already have some experience with the Vorbis at Xiph.org, so informing them of Garf's version can only expand their impression of Vorbis as a codec of potential.

Why recommend the standard, just because it is the standard, when there is something claimed to be better, is compatible, and ifree to use?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: prozak on 2004-04-01 02:17:12
Whatever is done, I think fixing the documentation and distributions of audio rippers is most important.

The conversion path for someone from MP3 -> OGG is hampered by misinformation, contradictory information, and most of all, PATHETIC documentation on the CDex and Audiograbber sites.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-04-02 00:35:38
Quote
Whatever is done, I think fixing the documentation and distributions of audio rippers is most important.

The conversion path for someone from MP3 -> OGG is hampered by misinformation, contradictory information, and most of all, PATHETIC documentation on the CDex and Audiograbber sites.

Perhaps an e-mail to the respective maintainers of those audio rippers would be useful.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: rjamorim on 2004-04-02 00:57:06
Update your links, dude.

Everything is still pointing to rarewares.hydrogenaudio.org

Just remove the hydrogenaudio from the link and it should work
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-04-02 01:48:37
Done
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Tang on 2004-05-10 01:58:36
Hi QuantumKnot,
I wanted to complain a little bit about the "GT3b2" confusion... The same dénomination (Gt3b2 for an older Garf tuned version and for the John33 merge between original Gt3b1 and 1.0.1) isn't very newbiefriendly...
Of course your "Ogg history" should put away any confusion but maybe this issue should be solved by a new denomination...
However my purpose wasn't to complain, i respect your great tuning work (and others coder one) for the ogg codec and i would like to see Xiph taking care about your worl...
Please apologise if the GT3b2 denomination issue has been discussed yet (it's quite probable...)...

Best regards,
Tanguy

PS: I've well understood tht the actual GT3b2 version is the John33 merge between 1.01 and GT3b1 and so i'm aware thats GT3b2 IS the recommanded version...
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-05-10 02:13:22
This GT3b2 should be exactly the same as the one John33 did so we decided to keep it consistent there.  At the time John33 did the merging, I think Garf wanted the merge to be called GT3b2, despite another GT3b2 existing which wasn't any good.  I didn't realise that the old and mostly forgotten GT3b2 was still known

Anyway, I'm all for a change to GT3b3.  Any feedback on this?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Tang on 2004-05-11 03:08:39
Quote
This GT3b2 should be exactly the same as the one John33 did so we decided to keep it consistent there.  At the time John33 did the merging, I think Garf wanted the merge to be called GT3b2, despite another GT3b2 existing which wasn't any good.  I didn't realise that the old and mostly forgotten GT3b2 was still known

Anyway, I'm all for a change to GT3b3.  Any feedback on this?

Hi QuantumKnot,
Indeed i'm a little bit paleolithic...
No in fact maybe i've remembered some very old things about GT3b2 due to my status of very casual HA user...

So if i'm just the only one who thinks that the GT3b2 could make some confusion there is no need to inaugurate Gt3b3 name...
Maybe you should keep it for an AoTuV/GT3b2 merge if there is such a project...  (in case the dénomination change should increase confusion...)
But why not let the HA ogg community give it's advice about this... I'm not a specialist afterall...
regards,
Tanguy
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Prodoc on 2004-05-24 23:54:50
Quote
From the Vorbis listening test and the recent 128 kbps multiformat test, Aoyumi's aoTuV Vorbis tuning was determined to be the best Vorbis encoder and hence it is now the recommended encoder.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding things a bit but shouldn't it state that aoTuV is recommended for lower bitrates and GT3b2 is recommended for higher bitrates?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: eagleray on 2004-05-25 00:09:15
@QN

From the way you did the headings it looks like no encoder is recommended from q 4.01 through q 4.99.

Quite a wake up call that AOTV blew off the pack.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-05-25 00:41:04
Quote
Quote
From the Vorbis listening test and the recent 128 kbps multiformat test, Aoyumi's aoTuV Vorbis tuning was determined to be the best Vorbis encoder and hence it is now the recommended encoder.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding things a bit but shouldn't it state that aoTuV is recommended for lower bitrates and GT3b2 is recommended for higher bitrates?

I thought that would be implied in the "128 kbps multiformat test'.  But it was only a very quick change I made to get it up there.  I'll definitely rework it, now that I have some time.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: bani on 2004-05-30 11:49:14
Quote
[Linux:

oggenc (http://www.rarewares.org/quantumknot/oggenc-aotuv.gz) aoTuV beta 2 (static gcc compile)

not very static at all

$ ./oggenc-aotuv
./oggenc-aotuv: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.3' not found (required by ./oggenc-aotuv)

how about 100% static version for those of us without glibc2.3?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-05-30 11:56:40
Quote
not very static at all

$ ./oggenc-aotuv
./oggenc-aotuv: /lib/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.3' not found (required by ./oggenc-aotuv)

how about 100% static version for those of us without glibc2.3?

Oh.  I'll look into it then.    Judging from the filesize, I was confident that it included everything.  Maybe not
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: de Mon on 2004-06-13 23:05:27
I also think GT3b2  can be newbie confusing. Actualy most of them don't know of New/Old versions. And somebody can accidentally use GT3b2-Old.
I propose to name merged version as GT3F (Final) or GT3S (Stable)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: xmixahlx on 2004-06-14 01:17:12
well, theres nothing "stable" about it

it doesn't at all address the problems <q4, and tests have shown that >q4 needs better/more tuning to be (more) effective than aotuv is

at this point it should be considered to tune aotuv for higher bitrates and drop gt3 all together... garf doesn't tune it any more, and all later versions from gt3b1 are just hacks anyways...


later
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Tang on 2004-06-24 14:24:49
Quote
well, theres nothing "stable" about it

it doesn't at all address the problems <q4, and tests have shown that >q4 needs better/more tuning to be (more) effective than aotuv is

at this point it should be considered to tune aotuv for higher bitrates and drop gt3 all together... garf doesn't tune it any more, and all later versions from gt3b1 are just hacks anyways...


later

Seems to be a good choice to avoid any confusion indeed...
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: kidi on 2004-07-17 22:49:52
Hi! Could somebody help me? :
I`d like to use a lowpass filter when encoding with low bitrates (EAC). What is the additional parameter for the command line? Thanks in advance.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-07-18 03:34:25
Quote
Hi! Could somebody help me? :
I`d like to use a lowpass filter when encoding with low bitrates (EAC). What is the additional parameter for the command line? Thanks in advance.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=226836"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Code: [Select]
--advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=NN


for NN kHz cutoff.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: NoXFeR on 2004-08-03 14:52:33
I think it would be nice if some information about possible candidates for next recommended versions is on the first post of the thread. That way people can get some information about them without searching wild. Like information about the Megamix merge and testing of it.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-08-07 02:34:38
Quote
I think it would be nice if some information about possible candidates for next recommended versions is on the first post of the thread. That way people can get some information about them without searching wild. Like information about the Megamix merge and testing of it.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=231451")


There is already a thread that lists out all the different versions.

[a href="http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21126]http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=21126[/url]

As for candidates for the next recommended versions, I can only decide via listening tests from others as well as their opinions.  Vorbis development is in a state of flux at the moment so one version chosen as recommended may soon be outdated by another (eg. Vorbis 1.1 may be coming out soon)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: esa372 on 2004-09-10 14:27:25
Quote
[span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%']How do I know which encoder was used to make this Ogg Vorbis file?[/span]
Using either the ogginfo program or file info in your player, you can tell from the vendor tag:

Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20020717 => 1.0

Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20030909 (1.0.1)  => 1.0.1

I've got a question regarding this:
I'm using dBpowerAmp music converter (Release 10.1) to convert from FLAC to Ogg (-q6).  According to dBpowerAmp, it's using 'Release 11.1 (Ogg V1.0.1)' of Ogg Vorbis.  But if I look at the tag of any given converted file more than once, it displays different information.  One time it may read 'Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20030909 (1.0.1)' and the next time I open it, it may read 'Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20020717'.

Any idea what's going on?  (or what version I'm actually using?)

Thanks in advance for the help!

~esa372
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Peter Harris on 2004-09-10 17:32:14
Quote
But if I look at the tag of any given converted file more than once, it displays different information.  One time it may read 'Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20030909 (1.0.1)' and the next time I open it, it may read 'Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20020717'.

Any idea what's going on?  (or what version I'm actually using?)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=240753"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The old Winamp Vorbis plugin would overwrite the actual encoder version with its version whenever you changed any of the tags. This doesn't change the quality of the encode, it only makes the encoder string incorrect.

Maybe whatever you're using to tag your Vorbis files has the same bug?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-09-12 01:50:51
IIRC, the old Vorbis plugin bug caused the vendor string to be changed to RC3.

esa372:

What program are you using the view the tag information?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: DreamTactix291 on 2004-09-25 04:29:03
Just would like to add that the compile of 1.1 with the impulse_trigger_profile switch available from rarewares has a vendor tag of Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20040920 and not 20040629 like 1.1 RC1.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-09-25 04:34:38
Quote
Just would like to add that the compile of 1.1 with the impulse_trigger_profile switch available from rarewares has a vendor tag of Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20040920 and not 20040629 like 1.1 RC1.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=244294"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks.  Change made.  Actually, this is a bit confusing since the vendor tag hasnt changed in the source code.  Hence the linux build with ITP is probably using the old vendor tag while the win32 builds use this new one. 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: esa372 on 2004-09-25 19:10:37
Quote
esa372:
What program are you using the view the tag information?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=241081"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I found out what the problem was... Peter Harris was right...

Quote
The old Winamp Vorbis plugin would overwrite the actual encoder version with its version whenever you changed any of the tags. This doesn't change the quality of the encode, it only makes the encoder string incorrect.

Maybe whatever you're using to tag your Vorbis files has the same bug?[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=240781"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Apparently, this happens with several tag editors - JetAudio and Rio Music Manager both change the encoder version in the tag... as well as dbPowerAmp(!).  Gotta be careful with these things!

Now I'm using Foobar2000 without any such trouble.    But, what a hassle it was to trace the problem!
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Garf on 2004-09-25 19:16:00
Prolly interesting to add:

Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20010816 (gtune 1)
1.0 RC2 GT1

Xiphophorus libVorbis I 20011014 (GTune 2)
1.0 RC2 GT2
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Tang on 2004-09-25 19:18:52
Thanks for your EDIT of the 1st post QK... Very nice job...
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: jwu42 on 2004-09-26 17:10:27
Nice revision there QK - much appreciated 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: sergelac on 2004-09-27 03:33:23
i'd like to use the new 1.1 but i hate these switches (i use oggdropXPd)
can someone make a new compile of the new 1.1 with GT3b2 tunings ?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: esa372 on 2004-09-27 05:24:42
Thanks for the update, QuantumKnot...  excellent work..!

Just one question:
I see that the default setting for the 'microattack' is 2.7 - what (if any) is the default setting for the 'pre-echo'?

Anybody know?  Is there a way to check this?

Thanks!

~esa
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-09-27 11:50:41
Quote
Thanks for the update, QuantumKnot...  excellent work..!

Just one question:
I see that the default setting for the 'microattack' is 2.7 - what (if any) is the default setting for the 'pre-echo'?

Anybody know?  Is there a way to check this?

Thanks!

~esa
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=244739"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The answer is simple.  The default value for impulse_noisetune is 0  impulse_noisetune is a relative setting.  It will add to whatever is the default for that quality level.  To force more aggressive coding of short blocks, lower the impulse_noisetune to negative values (max negative value is -15).
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: esa372 on 2004-09-27 15:39:53
Quote
The default value for impulse_noisetune is 0   impulse_noisetune is a relative setting.  It will add to whatever is the default for that quality level.  To force more aggressive coding of short blocks, lower the impulse_noisetune to negative values (max negative value is -15).

Thanks, QK!


Here's another question for you:
You said that...
Quote
...the notion that you have to sacrifice something for a gain in speed may not be untrue here and some people prefer the safety and stability of the MSVC builds. If you want to be doubly sure that your new and shiny Ogg Vorbis files are 'stable' and 'safe', go for the MSVC builds.
Can you explain what this "something" is that we might be loosing by using the new ICL compiles rather than the MSVC?  What are the potential drawbacks?

Thanks (again)!

~esa
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-09-28 00:37:32
Quote
Here's another question for you:
You said that...
Quote
...the notion that you have to sacrifice something for a gain in speed may not be untrue here and some people prefer the safety and stability of the MSVC builds. If you want to be doubly sure that your new and shiny Ogg Vorbis files are 'stable' and 'safe', go for the MSVC builds.
Can you explain what this "something" is that we might be loosing by using the new ICL compiles rather than the MSVC?  What are the potential drawbacks?

Thanks (again)!

~esa
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=244822"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'm not familiar with the problems with ICL and in most of the cases where I've used it, it seems great.  However, perhaps that something is 'certainty' or 'the warm and fuzzy feeling'  But yeah, I think people have pointed out some issues with (particularly older versions of) ICL cutting corners in some ways that aren't good.  I'm afraid that's the most detailed answer I can give.  I'm sure there are plenty of others who know more about this than me.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: esa372 on 2004-09-28 15:03:15
Thanks for all your help, QK!  It really helps us newbies out!

One more question:
Regarding the 'impulse_trigger_profile' setting, you said:
Quote
Note 1: There is the possibility that relaxed block switching may cause other quality problems and create suboptimal Vorbis files.  So use sparingly and with caution.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'relaxed block switching'.  Are you referring to a lower profile number in the 'impulse trigger profile' string (ie, --advanced-encode-option impulse_trigger_profile=0 (or 1))?  In other words, are you recommending the use of higher ITP values?

I was intending to use an ITP value of 3 for most (if not all) of my files, but your warning to 'use sparingly and with caution' caused me to balk.  Any clarification would be great!


Also, I noticed that in the 'Vorbis History' section, it still reads:
Quote
...John33 merged the sources to give us GT3b2, which is now the recommended Vorbis encoder.
Does this still hold true in light of the release of 1.1?



Thanks again.  I hope all these questions aren't a bother... 

~esa
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: music_man_mpc on 2004-09-28 15:38:44
I was just wondering why there is no one recommended setting for Vorbis anymore and where these advanced options came from?  Are these advanced options an atempt from Xiph.org to merge third party tunings?  Are there options that can resonably approximate the version of aoTuV used in the last multiformat test?  And/or settings that can do the same for the last version of Megamix?

Thanks
-Tyler
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: dawids on 2004-09-28 22:59:19
I just subscribed to Jetaudio 6 plus to enter the FLAC world (highest processing -8), and own MMJB as well (previously used for MP3pro VBR 100% ripping from CD). Winamp does not allow registration in SA for some reason. Are all these switches and settings applicable with these applications, or will I be getting things like microattack?
Comments / guidance appreciated.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-09-29 00:37:40
Quote
Thanks for all your help, QK!   It really helps us newbies out!

One more question:
Regarding the 'impulse_trigger_profile' setting, you said:
Quote
Note 1: There is the possibility that relaxed block switching may cause other quality problems and create suboptimal Vorbis files.  So use sparingly and with caution.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'relaxed block switching'.  Are you referring to a lower profile number in the 'impulse trigger profile' string (ie, --advanced-encode-option impulse_trigger_profile=0 (or 1))?  In other words, are you recommending the use of higher ITP values?


The higher the profile, the more 'relaxed' block switching is.

Quote
I was intending to use an ITP value of 3 for most (if not all) of my files, but your warning to 'use sparingly and with caution' caused me to balk.  Any clarification would be great!


Ah ok.  I recently heard reports that using a higher ITP can cause quality problems in some cases. 

So ITP should be used only if there is a noise problem and you want to try and fix it.  But you shouldn't use or expect ITP to improve the quality of your music in general.  It is a noise problem fixer, not a general-purpose quality improver  In 95% of the cases, ITP on default is recommended.  I need to rethink whether I should even mention ITP in a thread about recommendations. 

INT (impulse_noisetune) however seems safe to use in general and I haven't heard reports of INT causing quality problems (yet).

Quote
Also, I noticed that in the 'Vorbis History' section, it still reads:
Quote
...John33 merged the sources to give us GT3b2, which is now the recommended Vorbis encoder.
Does this still hold true in light of the release of 1.1?


Looks like I need to do some more editing.  Thanks
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: esa372 on 2004-09-29 15:02:33
Thanks again, QK, for all the info..!  It's really helping me dial in my settings...

 

~esa
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Prodoc on 2004-10-05 21:17:07
@QuantumKnot:
Quote
INT (impulse_noisetune) however seems safe to use in general and I haven't heard reports of INT causing quality problems (yet).

From main post:
Quote
Therefore, you should try a small value to start off (say -5) and see if you get acceptable quality.

So does this mean that the recommended setting for INT is -5?
You might want to specify this a bit incase everyone starts using -5 while they shouldn't
I, for one, wouldn't know which value I should use though I do think it's important to set this option. What would be the best value to use in general for all encodings?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-10-06 02:57:42
Quote
@QuantumKnot:
Quote
INT (impulse_noisetune) however seems safe to use in general and I haven't heard reports of INT causing quality problems (yet).

From main post:
Quote
Therefore, you should try a small value to start off (say -5) and see if you get acceptable quality.

So does this mean that the recommended setting for INT is -5?
You might want to specify this a bit incase everyone starts using -5 while they shouldn't
I, for one, wouldn't know which value I should use though I do think it's important to set this option. What would be the best value to use in general for all encodings?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=246530"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It depends really.  Usually you don't have to use INT in most cases.  But if you are sensitive to pre-echo and can hear it in some music, INT will be useful here.  But if you can't hear pre-echo at default settings (like me, I rarely am able to hear pre-echo unless it is really sharp stuff like castanets or harpsichord), then there is no need to set INT to anything.  I usually set it to -5 for safe measure, even though I won't be able to tell the difference most of the time.

I suggest you take a sample that is representative of the music you listen to most, do some blind listening tests to see if pre-echo is an issue....then gradually increase INT (or more like decrease since its negative) until you feel the pre-echo is gone.  Then if the bitrate jumps are acceptable, then you can use that.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: LoFiYo on 2004-10-16 05:34:57
If this can be considered off-topic, I apologize in advance.

I was just reading some comments by Aoyumi on 1.1 at his website.

He regrets that he wasn't taking a close look at the official Vorbis as his code was being incorporated into it by Monty, and expressed a slight degree of concern regarding the quality of 1.1 as compared to AoTuV b2.

He suspects that it is technically possible that some parts of AoTuV b2 tuning may have been broken when Monty fixed the code of AoTuV b2 and incorporated it into the official Vorbis, because Aoyumi, when tuning AoTuV, had also been taking into account whatever Monty fixed.

So despite many people's assumption, the audio quality of 1.1 is not automatically the same as that of AoTuV b2.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Madman2003 on 2004-10-16 13:21:29
@QK: higher ITP are normally used with higher quality levels, why would they cause problems? (i can see that lowering could be bad, but why is raising them?)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-10-19 13:28:24
Quote
@QK: higher ITP are normally used with higher quality levels, why would they cause problems? (i can see that lowering could be bad, but why is raising them?)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=248104"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Nobody knows, at present.  There was one report of it hurting quality but that's the only one.  It's not enough to be conclusive but it's better to be safe for now until it is proven/disproven.

Besides, I made ITP to fix microattack problems rather than to improve quality in general use. 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Enig123 on 2004-10-19 14:37:57
As we know ITP uses short blocks more frequently, maby this suffers the frequency resolution?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Gray_Wolf on 2004-10-23 20:47:11
 Hi, i am very happy with the sound quality of this new version of vorbis 1.1.0 encoder; I tested with many samples for my music archive quality backups. My favorite setting is -q7 (around 224kbps average) the sound is very clean and good taste for my ears    ; and not differences with the original wav file... I tested the setting -q0 for radio stream use, and the quality is good too.  I am using the oddcast plugin dsp_oddcast_02262003; the question is: How i can change the old vorbis encoder of this oddcast plugin for the new version 1.1.0? 

Other problem for me is the new version of oggdropXPd (1.7.11-1.1.0)  ; i am running windows 95; and my system completely crash with this version of oggdropXPd.
I am using Oggifier frontend with the oggenc.exe (1.1.0) without problems  , but; Is this oggenc.exe the same encoder in the oggdropXPd combination?

  I am very appreciated some feedback and help
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-10-24 02:29:09
Quote
Hi, i am very happy with the sound quality of this new version of vorbis 1.1.0 encoder; I tested with many samples for my music archive quality backups. My favorite setting is -q7 (around 224kbps average) the sound is very clean and good taste for my ears    ; and not differences with the original wav file... I tested the setting -q0 for radio stream use, and the quality is good too.  I am using the oddcast plugin dsp_oddcast_02262003; the question is: How i can change the old vorbis encoder of this oddcast plugin for the new version 1.1.0?  

Other problem for me is the new version of oggdropXPd (1.7.11-1.1.0)   ; i am running windows 95; and my system completely crash with this version of oggdropXPd.
I am using Oggifier frontend with the oggenc.exe (1.1.0) without problems  , but; Is this oggenc.exe the same encoder in the oggdropXPd combination?

  I am very appreciated some feedback and help
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=249547"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, oggenc is the same encoder as oggdropXPd.  That is, they produce the same version of Vorbis files.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Gray_Wolf on 2004-10-24 17:45:38
Quote
Yes, oggenc is the same encoder as oggdropXPd.  That is, they produce the same version of Vorbis files.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=249595"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks QK 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Patrick00 on 2004-10-24 23:38:53
vorbis 1.1.0 -q7 great quality, transparent to my ears. just for kicks i tried q0, great quality for its bitrate. (used placebo - days before you came) - largest distortion was the muddled guitars - lol, im glad i use q7
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Gray_Wolf on 2004-10-25 12:12:44
Quote
vorbis 1.1.0 -q7 great quality, transparent to my ears. just for kicks i tried q0, great quality for its bitrate. (used placebo - days before you came) - largest distortion was the muddled guitars - lol, im glad i use q7
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=249813"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


  I mentioned the setting -q0 only for radio internet broadcast; not for high fidelity.

The -q0 switch is in average 64 kbps, and the sound quality is better than 128kbps mp3 radio internet broadcast for the half of the bandwidth .

  It's the ideal solution for internet radio broadcasters, and not paid for license, because vorbis is patent free.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Poromenos on 2004-10-25 18:19:12
Actually -q-1 sounds better than mp3 128 to me... I wonder why people don't use it for streaming, and why you can't do custom bitrates, like 24/32/whatever. Are there technical limitations?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Patrick00 on 2004-10-25 23:33:13
Quote
I mentioned the setting -q0 only for radio internet broadcast; not for high fidelity.

The -q0 switch is in average 64 kbps, and the sound quality is better than 128kbps mp3 radio internet broadcast for the half of the bandwidth .

  It's the ideal solution for internet radio broadcasters, and not paid for license, because vorbis is patent free.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=249899"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i realize this, i was just testing it out for the sake of testing, i'm not THAT low on space  . i was just commenting on the suprising quality, as the previous user said, "q-1 sounds better than mp3 128" - in some cases.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Gray_Wolf on 2004-10-26 04:21:26
Quote
i realize this, i was just testing it out for the sake of testing, i'm not THAT low on space  . i was just commenting on the suprising quality, as the previous user said, "q-1 sounds better than mp3 128" - in some cases.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=250024"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


  OK
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: [solid] on 2004-11-14 10:08:29
erm... don't shout on me please...
i seriously doubt if i could abx even q4, but can one emulate gt3b2 with these advanced options? what should they be set to get something similar to gt3b2 at q6?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-11-14 23:42:34
Quote
erm... don't shout on me please...
i seriously doubt if i could abx even q4, but can one emulate gt3b2 with these advanced options? what should they be set to get something similar to gt3b2 at q6?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=253748"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It is rather difficult at q 4 since GT3b2 was only tuned for q 5 and above.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: [solid] on 2004-11-15 19:24:32
no no, i've meant:
gt3b2 at quality 6 - can a combination of the advanced options present in the recommended encore reproduce that tuning?
[span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']edit: the allnew rewritten from scratch version 2.0 of my post[/span] 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Dologan on 2004-11-16 00:31:25
Quote
no no, i've meant:
gt3b2 at quality 6 - can a combination of the advanced options present in the recommended encore reproduce that tuning?
[span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']edit: the allnew rewritten from scratch version 2.0 of my post[/span] 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=254115"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I'd say oggenc -q 6 --advanced-encode-option impulse_trigger_profile=5 would be equivalent, although not bit identical, since GT3b2 does not include aotuvb2's tunings, as 1.1 does.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-11-16 01:33:06
Quote
no no, i've meant:
gt3b2 at quality 6 - can a combination of the advanced options present in the recommended encore reproduce that tuning?
[span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']edit: the allnew rewritten from scratch version 2.0 of my post[/span] 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=254115"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sorry, I misread it.

I've compared the critical values between 1.1 and GT3b2 and I think these settings should be close enough for q 6:

Code: [Select]
--advanced-encode-option impulse_noisetune=-10 --advanced-encode-option impulse_trigger_profile=5.2
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Zoom on 2004-11-30 04:29:13
I just built an AMD64 system and was updating my software. I tried both of the ICL compiles (P3/AMD & P4) and found that the P4 version was consistently around 2x faster. (*Not double speed)

Code: [Select]
P4 ICL Compile
Done encoding file "M:\My Music\Track03.ogg"

       File length:  2m 39.0s
       Elapsed time: 0m 08.0s
       Rate:         19.9717
       Average bitrate: 167.0 kb/s

P3/AMD
Done encoding file "M:\My Music\Track03.ogg"

       File length:  2m 39.0s
       Elapsed time: 0m 09.0s
       Rate:         17.7526
       Average bitrate: 167.0 kb/s


So should you use the P4 compile if you have AMD64 or should you still use the P3 version?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: kotrtim on 2004-11-30 04:34:58
......the bitrate is similar, 167kbps, so they are bit identical.......why bother, go for the faster compile

i think the P4 means SSE2 optimised, P3 means SSE optimised, nothing important

If you can run the P4 compile, that means AMD64 supports SSE2
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-11-30 04:44:18
That's interesting, when considering that AMD32's only support SSE.  I should test out oggenc on our AMD64's, which are running 64-bit linux
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: yong on 2004-12-03 10:58:49
Mimicking GT3b2 with 1.1

Code: [Select]
from QuantumKnot's post
--advanced-encode-option impulse_noisetune=-10 --advanced-encode-option impulse_trigger_profile=5.2

I've read several post about mimicking GT3b2 with 1.1, but i'm not so understand it(i'm stupid  ),
I assume that :
-q 6 --advanced-encode-option impulse_noisetune=-10 --advanced-encode-option impulse_trigger_profile=5.2
is same as GT3b2 q6?

Please correct me if i'm wrong.
Thanks!
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-12-03 23:12:51
Quote
Mimicking GT3b2 with 1.1

Code: [Select]
from QuantumKnot's post
--advanced-encode-option impulse_noisetune=-10 --advanced-encode-option impulse_trigger_profile=5.2

I've read several post about mimicking GT3b2 with 1.1, but i'm not so understand it(i'm stupid  ),
I assume that :
-q 6 --advanced-encode-option impulse_noisetune=-10 --advanced-encode-option impulse_trigger_profile=5.2
is same as GT3b2 q6?

Please correct me if i'm wrong.
Thanks!
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=257549"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, it is a good approximation of it, though not exactly the same.  Try comparing this setting with GT3b1 on some files.  I haven't tried this setting myself but only derived it by looking at the psychoacoustic values of both.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: yong on 2004-12-04 13:36:34
@QuantumKnot:
Thanks for the reply, but why try comparing the setting with GT3b1, not the GT3b2?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-12-04 14:16:13
Quote
@QuantumKnot:
Thanks for the reply, but why try comparing the setting with GT3b1, not the GT3b2?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=257759"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Mainly because GT3b1 is essentially the same as GT3b2, except that the former was based on Vorbis 1.0 while the latter was based on Vorbis 1.0.1.  But the important tunings are the same.  So you can compare with either of them.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: zEn on 2004-12-29 16:26:12
is there a special oggenc version (with P4 optimization) to include in foobar?
I just copied the aotuv dlls in my foobar directory and use the standart oggenc, because oggenc2 does not work.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: TobWen on 2004-12-30 02:03:13
Hi there,

I've been off this site for about a year.
I've already read many threads and after reading this sticky, I'm really confused.

QuantumKnot is recommending "Xiph.Org's Vorbis 1.1" at all quality levels.
His post was edited last time Nov 23 2004.

Many people on this board like the aoTuV-builds.
I'm interesting in -q5 to -q7 ... which way should I go?

Best regards,
Tobias
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: music_man_mpc on 2004-12-30 02:27:21
Quote
Hi there,

I've been off this site for about a year.
I've already read many threads and after reading this sticky, I'm really confused.

QuantumKnot is recommending "Xiph.Org's Vorbis 1.1" at all quality levels.
His post was edited last time Nov 23 2004.

Many people on this board like the aoTuV-builds.
I'm interesting in -q5 to -q7 ... which way should I go?

Best regards,
Tobias
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=262102"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Welcome to Hydrogenaudio Tobias.

The reason why Vorbis 1.1 is recommended over any of the aoTuV builds is that, for all intents and purposes, it is aoTuV beta2 with a few extra bugfixes.  Very few reliable tests have been conducted so far between aoTuV beta 3 and beta 2/Vorbis 1.1; thus Vorbis 1.1 is still the recommended version, but if even a few reliable tests come back in favor of aoTuV beta3 I think that QuantumKnot will probably change it.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-12-30 02:28:28
Vorbis 1.1 is based on aoTuV beta 2.  The recent aoTuV beta 3 is currently experimental and there haven't been any substantial listening tests done to show that it is better than Vorbis 1.1 in most genres (yet).

For the q range you are interested in, I suspect there isn't much difference.  But you should do your own listening test with the music you listen to the most to verify.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: TobWen on 2004-12-30 02:42:50
thanks for your fast and professional help!
According to this, I've got another question:
I'm using "Cool Edit Pro 1.2" for editing my music.
Is"Cool Vorbis Filter using libVorbis v1.1.0" from RareWares the recommended build?

I'm really confused about the sorting on RareWares :-)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2004-12-30 02:45:49
Quote
thanks for your fast and professional help!
According to this, I've got another question:
I'm using "Cool Edit Pro 1.2" for editing my music.
Is"Cool Vorbis Filter using libVorbis v1.1.0" from RareWares the recommended build?

I'm really confused about the sorting on RareWares :-)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=262110"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yep, since it uses libvorbis 1.1

I think they need to clean up their page at Rarewares
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: LiTEMaTTeR on 2005-01-04 07:56:26
hmmm... AO; aoTuV b2 [20040420] (based on Xiph.Org's 1.0.1) => aoTuV beta 2

Thats what I'm using with a foobar2000 encoder. I'm noticing something though. Using -q 5 which Im told is the min for transparency with this encoder, the bitrates seem to be lower than I get with 3.90.3 LAME's APS. I also did MPC for fun and found those to tend to be somewhere between OGG and MP3 at its stand setting.

Anyways, Ive tried to ABX a few tracks and I seem to not be able to tell that q5 sounds bad at all compared to the original. I used alot of tracks off FF123's problem sample FLACs and a few random wav's I had on my pc (mostly pop and urban style music). Its extremely hard for me to even hear any differences.

Im very excited about the lower bitrates but good quality still. But I don't wanna get my hopes up really fast just yet.

I have a few more questions about OGG as a format compared to mp3:

1) do u *have* to compare only pure bitrates i.e 192 ogg vs mp3 192. I'd really like to think OGG is giving me higher/equal(probably more accurate) quality at lower bitrates. Generally, speaking of course.

2) could one say q5 (ogg) = lame-aps (mp3) in terms of quality?

3) since ogg doesn't have alot of the same limitations mp3 has. I assume its encoding even the high freq content fine?

4) any GUI (like encospot) apps for OGG?

EDIT: moved from previous thread
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-01-06 00:09:18
Quote
Anyways, Ive tried to ABX a few tracks and I seem to not be able to tell that q5 sounds bad at all compared to the original. I used alot of tracks off FF123's problem sample FLACs and a few random wav's I had on my pc (mostly pop and urban style music). Its extremely hard for me to even hear any differences.


Transparency is subjective and is different to different people.  I find it hard to hear artifacts at q 4 most of the time while some people can hear the the faintest of artifacts at q 7 or more.  So it is dependent on your equipment as well as your hearing.

Quote
1) do u *have* to compare only pure bitrates i.e 192 ogg vs mp3 192. I'd really like to think OGG is giving me higher/equal(probably more accurate) quality at lower bitrates. Generally, speaking of course.


This has been the bone of contention for a while....how to compare VBR codecs.  The usual practice has been to compare codecs which have similar average bitrates on most genres of music.  So what that means is gathering lots and lots of music of different genres, and twiddling the VBR settings of both codecs until they achieve the same average bitrate (adding up all the bitrates and taking an average) on this material.

Quote
2) could one say q5 (ogg) = lame-aps (mp3) in terms of quality?


Only a listening test can answer that, and it will be dependent on different people.  Have a search around the forums to see if someone has done a test comparing q 5 ogg vorbis with lame aps.

Quote
3) since ogg doesn't have alot of the same limitations mp3 has. I assume its encoding even the high freq content fine?


Theoretically, ogg vorbis was designed to overcome the limitations of mp3.  But whether it has been tuned optimally is the important question.  IMO, ogg vorbis has a lot of potential and the current encoder is not as well tuned as say, LAME.

Quote
4) any GUI (like encospot) apps for OGG?


You could try OggDropXPd.  There are quite a few.

btw.  Ogg is a file container that can contain video and audio.  The actual audio codec is called Vorbis.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: mono13 on 2005-02-01 04:35:42
i find ogg's great in a komputer  stg game
only ogg q4 128k/bps,but soundz amazing
than i become a true ogg fans,q4 is enough for the quality u want.
if wanna more safety ,go q5
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Buffalo Bill on 2005-02-14 05:27:26
Great topic! Answered almost all my questions in one swoop. Anyways, EAC+OGG... I notice the maximum bitrate is 320 KBp/s... will it encode higher? What do I do? Also, will EAC+OGG encode a DTS SACD? Lastly, is EAC still better than CDex, or has CDex outpaced it? I've been outta the loop a while
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-02-14 05:35:53
I think EAC is still the best ripper for detecting errors, though I find CDex's paranoia ripper to be quite good at 'fixing' scratched CDs.  But if you have a CD drive that caches data, then CDex won't be able to detect the errors, so best go with EAC.  Luckily, my DVD drive doesn't cache data (according to EAC)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Buffalo Bill on 2005-02-14 05:44:27
Yeah, but will EAC encode my OGG Vorbis files at 500KBp/s, or will the highest it go be 320?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: DreamTactix291 on 2005-02-15 05:30:05
If you tell it to call oggenc and encode at -q 10 it'll encode at -q 10.  I don't think Ogg Vorbis has an upper ceiling for bitrate but I could be wrong.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: dewey1973 on 2005-02-17 17:25:27
Quote
Yeah, but will EAC encode my OGG Vorbis files at 500KBp/s, or will the highest it go be 320?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=273326"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The bit rate drop-down does not tell the encoder what bit rate to use.  I believe it is only used to estimate the compressed file size that is shown in the main window.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: alter4 on 2005-02-28 08:55:57
It seems new Qk test build is recommended encoder because it based on Vorbis 1.1
and include only the new block switching algorithm.
Quote
so it can't do any worse than vanilla Vorbis 1.1, I hope
QuantumKnot
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-02-28 10:16:30
Quote
It seems new Qk test build is recommended encoder because it based on Vorbis 1.1
and include only the new block switching algorithm.
Quote
so it can't do any worse than vanilla Vorbis 1.1, I hope
QuantumKnot

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=277795"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It is much too early to be recommending that.  More testing is required to determine any special cases.  While it can't do any worse than 1.1 in terms of quality, it can explode and give very high bitrates on some types of music though.  I found one particular sample today so I went and fixed it, only to break it for another sample.  So yeah, still early days.  Plus we got some new aoTuV releases too
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Prodoc on 2005-03-03 11:44:03
Isn't the Oggenc2.4 serie (IMPULSE_TRIGGER_PROFILE, aoTuVb3, etc) recommended yet? It's not updated in this thread but the 2.3 serie isn't even listed on RareWares anymore.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-03-03 11:55:05
Quote
Isn't the Oggenc2.4 serie (IMPULSE_TRIGGER_PROFILE, aoTuVb3, etc) recommended yet? It's not updated in this thread but the 2.3 serie isn't even listed on RareWares anymore.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=278844"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks for pointing it out.  I've updated the links.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: evilchickenking on 2005-03-14 18:59:19
I have an amd64 processor and i was curious to find out if i was still supposed to use the p3/amd version or if i was supposed to use the p4 version. i've noticed that with other projects with different version that sse2 was the only difference between the two. is this true in this case?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-03-14 23:43:02
Quote
I have an amd64 processor and i was curious to find out if i was still supposed to use the p3/amd version or if i was supposed to use the p4 version. i've noticed that with other projects with different version that sse2 was the only difference between the two. is this true in this case?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=282191"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The best way to find out is to actually run the P4 version and see if it works.  If it was specifically compiled for P4, you'll get an error message saying this is incompatible.  If it works, then that means there aren't any P4-specific instructions used.  But yeah, amd64 supports SSE2.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: phong on 2005-03-16 13:40:52
I just noticed that I'm getting a vendor string of "Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20040629" for the impulse_trigger_profile version of oggenc, which is contrary to what is listed in the head post - I got the same from both the 1.1rc1 and 1.1 compiles (of both stock and itp versions.)  These are linux binaries.

Also - quick question.  Is there a statically linked linux binary of aotuvb3 anywhere?  I made one myself, but it's optimized for my system.  I can easily make a generic version if there is a need for it.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: DreamTactix291 on 2005-03-17 01:20:47
The 1.1 with ITP Windows binary from Rarewares is the only one with the Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20040920 Vendor string AFAIK.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: john33 on 2005-03-17 09:04:15
I seem to recall that the date I put on the Rarewares offerings was the release date of 1.1, although the libs were unchanged from the RC1 release which was, I think, the earlier date. So, there is no difference between them.

The reason the two dates remain is that Xiph made their release with the earlier date in place and could not then sensibly change the date, and I too was reluctant to change the date on the Rarewares releases for the same reason.

So, sorry for the confusion, but they are one and the same thing.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: kjoonlee on 2005-05-26 05:15:58
Quote
I just built an AMD64 system and was updating my software. I tried both of the ICL compiles (P3/AMD & P4) and found that the P4 version was consistently around 2x faster. (*Not double speed)

Code: [Select]
P4 ICL Compile
Done encoding file "M:\My Music\Track03.ogg"

       File length:  2m 39.0s
       Elapsed time: 0m 08.0s
       Rate:         19.9717
       Average bitrate: 167.0 kb/s

P3/AMD
Done encoding file "M:\My Music\Track03.ogg"

       File length:  2m 39.0s
       Elapsed time: 0m 09.0s
       Rate:         17.7526
       Average bitrate: 167.0 kb/s


So should you use the P4 compile if you have AMD64 or should you still use the P3 version?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=256857"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I got similar results today. The P4 version is faster for me too.

According to Wikipedia, AMD64 supports SSE2, so I guess there's nothing wrong with using SSE2-optimized binaries.

Eh? What about SSE3, you say? I suspect the current compiles don't use SSE3.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Jebus on 2005-05-26 07:42:01
Well SSE2 was a pretty significant thing - double precision floating point units basically completely replacing the x87 in functionality. SSE1 only gave single precision (AFAIK) so it was good for stuff like 3D, but the x87 had to be used for double. My understanding is that when SSE was originally designed it was more like SSE2 but Intel couldn't get it to work with the Pentium 3, so they had to cripple some of the pipelines. Then they got it right with their new P4 architecture. This is all very "I remember reading something 5 years ago", so i could be way off base.

Now because of that, the P4 got a piece of shit x87 unit, while the Athlon (which didn't have any SSE at first) had a really good one. So that's why Athlon binaries compiled with, say, --fpmath=sse (in GCC) don't run that much quicker anyhow. The P4 BADLY needs to be optimized for SSE/SSE2.

Athlon64 does support SSE2, so P4 binaries should by and large work fine on it.

SSE3 (again, AFAIK) is only a few extra instructions added to the SSE2 unit... I don't even know what they're good for.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HbG on 2005-05-26 11:26:31
The general concensus on the AcesHardware forum seems to be that SSE3 is somewhat of a misnomer, SSE2+ would be more accurate. That said, it does bring some artchitectural improvements that may benefit some SSE code.

The SSE2 is only there because ICL8 can vectorise code by itself, which is a nice feature, but it'd be much better (and faster still) if Vorbis supported it natively. There was a japanese guy who created Archer (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=29161) for this. I'd love to see that tested and integrated with the next Xiph release.

BTW, x87 floating point is 80 bit precision, SSE is 64 bits. Do 16 bits less really cause an unacceptable loss in encoding quality?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Garf on 2005-05-26 12:04:35
Quote
BTW, x87 floating point is 80 bit precision, SSE is 64 bits. Do 16 bits less really cause an unacceptable loss in encoding quality?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=300665"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


No, moreso because intermediate results in x87 code are usually only stored with 64 bit precision. C doesn't guarantee more than 64 bits precision to start with.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: CoRoNe on 2005-05-31 17:58:11
My first appearance on this forum, so perhaps a silly question, but anyway...
I was wondering if it whould be right to say that -q4 (nom. 128Kbps | aver. 117Kbps) gives the same (or better) quality as LAME 128Kbps CBR !?
It's just that I'm at the point of choising between Vorbis or MP3, and I've decided to go with Vorbis. I prefer low filesize, but with a sound quality that is at least equal (or better) to MP3 @ 128Kbps.
Thanks in advance
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HbG on 2005-05-31 18:31:39
Quote
My first appearance on this forum, so perhaps a silly question, but anyway...
I was wondering if it whould be right to say that -q4 (nom. 128Kbps | aver. 117Kbps) gives the same (or better) quality as LAME 128Kbps CBR !?
It's just that I'm at the point of choising between Vorbis or MP3, and I've decided to go with Vorbis. I prefer low filesize, but with a sound quality that is at least equal (or better) to MP3 @ 128Kbps.
Thanks in advance
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=302157")


According to [a href="http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html]This multiformat 128kbps listening test[/url] Vorbis one the whole outperforms MP3 (and all other tested formats) at ~128kbps VBR. Vorbis has improved since, lame has not, at least, 3.96 is still the latest official version. In addition to that, the MP3 files used in that test were in VBR mode which generally gives quite an improvement over 128kbps CBR.

In short yes, i'd say you're better off with Vorbis, but of course the only way to be sure is to try both and compare the results.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: moozooh on 2005-05-31 19:03:49
Quote
Vorbis one the whole outperforms MP3 (and all other tested formats) at ~128kbps VBR. Vorbis has improved since, lame has not, at least, 3.96 is still the latest official version
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302168"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not quite right.
Alpha version of 3.97 performs quite well at -V4 and -V5 and, in rare cases, may even outperform Vorbis on the same bitrate! On the other hand, AAC is an even more dangerous competitor.
However, Vorbis aoTuV pre-beta 4 is still my favourite lossy codec for <128 kbps.

Edit: mistakes.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HbG on 2005-05-31 22:43:34
True, but it's alpha, my post was about stable versions. But yeah, aac is the most dangerous competitor. But it's quality encoders are not free

Wasn't aoTuV pb4 tuned to give improvement primarily at lower bitrates? <q4?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: CoRoNe on 2005-06-01 00:29:00
So, Vorbis @ q4 is quality-wise always better then MP3 @ 128Kbps CBR?
Or is Vorbis @ q3 even ≥ MP3 @ 128Kbps CBR?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Digisurfer on 2005-06-01 01:36:57
Quote
So, Vorbis @ q4 is quality-wise always better then MP3 @ 128Kbps CBR?
Or is Vorbis @ q3 even ≥ MP3 @ 128Kbps CBR?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=302267")

It all depends on the individual, so you really have to do your own tests. For me OGG blows away everything 96k and up. That's from my own extensive ABX testing (using foobar2000), and is actually partly why I ended up with the portable player I have. Yeah I can hear artifacts, but I find their least annoying in the Vorbis format. With LAME I can ABX 320k encode pretty reliably fwiw, and this is why I stopped using MP3. Everyone is different in what they can and cannot hear, as well as what is and what is not acceptable to them. This might help you though:

[a href="http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html]http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html[/url]
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: moozooh on 2005-06-01 01:57:59
Quote
True, but it's alpha, my post was about stable versions. But yeah, aac is the most dangerous competitor. But it's quality encoders are not free
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302239"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

AFAIK, you can install demo version, grab the dlls and use them with LoggerSoft's frontend without paying a cent.

Quote
Wasn't aoTuV pb4 tuned to give improvement primarily at lower bitrates? <q4?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302239"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oops, I meant <128 kbps.

Quote
So, Vorbis @ q4 is quality-wise always better then MP3 @ 128Kbps CBR?
Or is Vorbis @ q3 even ≥ MP3 @ 128Kbps CBR?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=302267"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Generally, it depends on a huge load of factors including your own ability to spot specific artifacts. But, to avoid TOS #8 violation, I'd say: with latest versions, mostly, yes. Sometimes, no. Try for yourself.
As from my own experience, I managed to get awesome sounding samples @45 kbps with Vorbis pb4.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: beto on 2005-06-01 02:06:34
Bear in mind that vorbis is not as widely compatible as MP3, meaning that the widely deployed players do not support it out of the box.
If compatibility is an issue you are better off with MP3.
IMO wide compatibility is more important than the quality difference that is marginal favouring vorbis for my ears.

edit: typo
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: saratoga on 2005-06-01 05:42:24
Quote
AFAIK, you can install demo version, grab the dlls and use them with LoggerSoft's frontend without paying a cent.


Until the demo runs out anyway.  iTunes is pretty good, and VBR is right around the corner though.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: kjoonlee on 2005-06-01 06:32:24
... and how is this relevant with recommended Vorbis encoders and settings, again?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HbG on 2005-06-01 14:20:55
Yeah i've had good results with aoTuV pb4, i'm setting up a little free internet radio station and at q-2 mono it's officially 26kbit, but it tends to chronically overshoot to ~32, and it sounds pretty damn good.

Which brings me to something else, is there any way i can make oddcast tell the vorbis dll's to use --managed?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: moozooh on 2005-07-12 15:30:05
Time to update the post.
1. Oggenc is updated to 2.6.
2. Add aoTuV pb4, b4, merged 1.1.1+b4 and Archer/Lancer's version strings.
3. Consider making 1.1.1b4 version the recommended one.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: alter4 on 2005-07-15 07:02:44
I make some ABX test with problematic samples  (not very strong, but results are trustworthy I hope) with aoTuV b4 merged 1.1.1 and 1.1.1 official at q4 and q6.
My personal conclusion: aobeta4 can't do any worse than Vorbis 1.1.1 [edit: at least with no depression) I agree with Mo0zOoH
Quote
Consider making 1.1.1b4 version the recommended one.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Saoshyant on 2005-07-26 22:36:54
Ok, this will sound lame at first sight, but please don't flame my intention. I love Ogg Vorbis ever since I tried it 3 years ago, yet with the ascension of lossless formats in popularity and their comparison with the lossy ones I have now my own doubts if I should keep my own backup CD collection as Vorbis or FLAC. I seriously would rather use Vorbis; FLAC is still huge, so I decided to post on this thread in case  someone might have make comparison tests regarding FLAC and Vorbis, or how much does Vorbis approach FLAC at the higher bitrates.

See, I have made my own blind tests that so far show that aoTuV4 Vorbis q8 (average bitrate = 256kbps) with noise-tune = -5 and Replaygain tags sounds exactly like any FLAC file I tried comparing with. So, what I would like to know is the opinion of those that are more hardcore at this. How does my "LosslessVorbis" compares to real FLAC? Is there really any quality loss? If so, what do you people suggest me to reach this goal? Higher bitrate? Using other advanced options like Impulse Trigger? Or what exactly?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: guruboolez on 2005-07-26 23:23:56
You're asking for the level of transparency of Vorbis at high bitrate. It's a recurrent question and the aswer depends on your hearing abilities, the listening conditions and the kind of signal. The level of transparency is therefore very subjective. But at -q8, it's very hard for most people to get any difference. Therefore, if you don't have enough storage to use lossless encoding, and if you failed on ABX comparisons with your lossy format and settings, go with lossy.


EDIT: changes were done for the recommendation. Thanks QuantumKnot. One regret: aoTuV beta 4. I tested it at 80 and 96 kbps, and in both case aoTuV was superior to 1.1.1. The current recommendation doesn't mention anywhere the existence of this encoder. Same thing for LANCER (better than 1.1.1 for speed and certainly for quality too). Is it possible to mention these encoders somewhere?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-08-04 14:02:21
Quote
EDIT: changes were done for the recommendation. Thanks QuantumKnot. One regret: aoTuV beta 4. I tested it at 80 and 96 kbps, and in both case aoTuV was superior to 1.1.1. The current recommendation doesn't mention anywhere the existence of this encoder. Same thing for LANCER (better than 1.1.1 for speed and certainly for quality too). Is it possible to mention these encoders somewhere?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=316125"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Sorry, I've been awfully busy lately and haven't visited for a week or so.  I'll update it very soon.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-08-07 03:25:44
Updated the settings page with aoTuV beta 4 and Lancer 20050709
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: rjamorim on 2005-08-07 03:36:26
Quote
Sorry, I've been awfully busy lately and haven't visited for a week or so.  I'll update it very soon. [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=317838"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Maybe you can consider moving the recommendation list to the Knowledge Base? That way, several people could contribute to keep it up-to-date. Also, people would keep a close look to make sure noone messes it up.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-08-07 03:38:46
Quote
Quote
Sorry, I've been awfully busy lately and haven't visited for a week or so.  I'll update it very soon. [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=317838"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Maybe you can consider moving the recommendation list to the Knowledge Base? That way, several people could contribute to keep it up-to-date. Also, people would keep a close look to make sure noone messes it up.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318302"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That's a good idea.  I'll look into that then.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HotshotGG on 2005-08-07 06:05:15
Quote
Maybe you can consider moving the recommendation list to the Knowledge Base? That way, several people could contribute to keep it up-to-date. Also, people would keep a close look to make sure noone messes it up.


I think that might be a good idea also  . Wiki is coming along pretty good I mean it could always use work, but I think things are coming along.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: zver on 2005-08-22 23:17:17
I was a big mpc fan but this newest guru`s listening test is making me to nswitch from mpc to vorbis as mpc wont progreess anumore.I was testing today the q5 and q6 aotuvb4 with vorbis1.1.1 and what is the status with lancer optimatization build.
Is it general ha concensus that is safe to use and that it gives same output as regular aotuvb4 enc???
If this has been mentioned i apologize as im total vorbis newbie
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Mr_Rabid_Teddybear on 2005-08-22 23:36:00
I guess the purpose of Lancer are to produce identical quality as the aoTuVb4-libVorbis1.1.1-merged encoder, just using SSE optimizations and such for higher speed. Tweaking done should only affect encoding speed. But if this goal are fully reached I would also like to know.....
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Nova5000 on 2005-09-24 15:18:11
Just a question regarding CDex.

I've downloaded ogg vorbis dlls using libVorbis v1.1.1  2005-06-29 from rarewares and replaced the old files that were in the CDex folder.

I'm just curious, how do I enable padding? Is it enabled if I just update the DLL's or do I need to use oggenc as an external encoder for this?

I tried both the P3 and P4 versions from the first page with the recommended settings for CDex, but I get a "Can't send data to encoder" error trying that.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: john33 on 2005-09-24 15:33:08
Quote
Just a question regarding CDex.

I've downloaded ogg vorbis dlls using libVorbis v1.1.1  2005-06-29 from rarewares and replaced the old files that were in the CDex folder.

I'm just curious, how do I enable padding? Is it enabled if I just update the DLL's or do I. need to use oggenc as an external encoder for this?

I tried both the P3 and P4 versions from the first page with the recommended settings for CDex, but I get a "Can't send data to encoder" error trying that.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=329280"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You'll need to use oggenc2 for padding, the option isn't available elsewhere. Otherwise, just set it up as any other external encoder in CDex.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Nova5000 on 2005-09-24 17:14:24
As I said before:

I tried both the P3 and P4 versions from the first page with the recommended settings for CDex, but I get a "Can't send data to encoder" error trying that.

Thanks anyway
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Nova5000 on 2005-10-03 14:52:50
Does anyone know how to solve the problem, and getting padding to work in Cdex?

Cheers
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: dewey1973 on 2005-10-03 16:19:45
I get the following error when clicking on the OggDropXPd download link in the first message:

Quote
Fatality: Cannot connect to database.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-10-04 01:17:02
Quote
I get the following error when clicking on the OggDropXPd download link in the first message:

Quote
Fatality: Cannot connect to database.

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=331295"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Fixed the broken links.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-10-04 01:20:45
Quote
Does anyone know how to solve the problem, and getting padding to work in Cdex?

Cheers
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=331280"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


hmm.... Did you type out the command line (with all the switches) exactly?

Just as a test, try this and see if it works

-q 5 - -o "%2"

If it does, then we can add the other switches one-by-one.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-11-17 10:30:04
Updated the recommended encoder to aoTuV beta 4, following guruboolez' listening test.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: AutumnRain on 2005-11-26 03:31:39
the links in the first post for dloading the .exe seem to be dead (.404 error)

oggenc26.exe aoTuV beta 4 (ICL compile for P4/AMD Sempron, Athlon 64)

-
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2005-11-28 12:10:46
Quote
the links in the first post for dloading the .exe seem to be dead (.404 error)

oggenc26.exe aoTuV beta 4 (ICL compile for P4/AMD Sempron, Athlon 64)

-
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=345128"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks for the heads-up.  Looks like the aoTuV beta 4 binaries are all gone on rarewares so I've had to put the newest aoTuV beta 4.51 on there.  Not what I prefer since it hasn't been tested as extensively as aoTuV beta 4, but I got no choice.  Hopefully they are very similar.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: unfortunateson on 2005-12-05 03:08:04
I'm having problems encoding.  I'm using Foobar2000 0.8.3, downloaded the A64 compile of Aotuv4.51 with Clienc settings

-q2 - -o %d

Whenever I try to encode, the command prompt screen appears. looks to be running Oggenc2.exe, but there is only a cursor on the screen, and nothing happens.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: sh1leshk4 on 2005-12-05 03:20:40
Quote
-q2 - -o %d[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=347744"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I hope you did put a space between -q and 2.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: kjoonlee on 2005-12-05 03:21:59
The space is optional, as is usual with *nix programs.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: unfortunateson on 2005-12-05 03:23:51
I can use the command line with -q2 and it works just fine.
It still doesn't work in foobar, with or without the space.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: sh1leshk4 on 2005-12-05 04:02:20
Does the generic build work fine w/ foobar?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: unfortunateson on 2005-12-05 04:41:40
I downloaded the foobar 9 beta, and it's clienc worked without a single problem.  Does it use different command line parameters for ogg files than 083?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: sh1leshk4 on 2005-12-05 04:56:11
It shouldn't be.
Probably something wrong when piping the decoded stream, either on foobar's end or oggenc2's end, but cmiiw...
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2005-12-06 11:35:16
The quotes around %d ?  I.e. "%d" instead of %d ...
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-07 06:02:22
Quote
Quote
Quote
Sorry, I've been awfully busy lately and haven't visited for a week or so.  I'll update it very soon. [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=317838")

Maybe you can consider moving the recommendation list to the Knowledge Base? That way, several people could contribute to keep it up-to-date. Also, people would keep a close look to make sure noone messes it up.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318302"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a good idea.  I'll look into that then.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318303"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Most of the first posting has been placed into [a href="http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis]this wiki page[/url]. It seems to have acquire a life of its own  so would someone please check up on that page (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis)?

Thanx.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HotshotGG on 2006-01-07 07:30:54
One step at a time. I am going to go through and mercifully edit it (including spelling and grammar)  .  I like the fact that your taking the time to adapt the thread into the wiki, but I started working on the page and it's something I have had in mind for a few months and didn't get to finish.  I understand a lot of the internals beneath the Vorbis too, because I have thoroughly inspected the code and I know how to code myself (even though I don't quite that often). You managed to add in junk that doesn't need to be in here 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: dyneq on 2006-01-07 14:11:14
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One step at a time. I am going to go through and mercifully edit it (including spelling and grammar)  :D.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=355230"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Just wanted to say thanks for this wiki.  There is nothing else like it that I have found on the web and it is very concise.

IMO, vorbis is an amazing encoder in terms of size vs. quality.  I've invested in an iaudio 5, and am already looking at a HD player for vorbis (anybody want to buy an ipod?).  I hope that it is here to stay and that tremor keeps getting written and optimized for new chips.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: vinnie97 on 2006-01-08 01:13:17
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(including spelling and grammar) biggrin.gif. I like the fact that your taking

Careful with those stones.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-10 05:14:12
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You managed to add in junk that doesn't need to be in here 
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=355230"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Added junk? Ah  I have to protest  as all I did was completing the information already in there

Well okay I did add "Advanced Encoder Settings" but I think that's not junk...
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-01-10 05:34:34
--advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=X (where X is the lowpass frequency in khz)

isnt mentioned in the wiki  its my favorite option  i couldn't live without it
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2006-01-10 11:33:57
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Quote
Quote
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Sorry, I've been awfully busy lately and haven't visited for a week or so.  I'll update it very soon. [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=317838")

Maybe you can consider moving the recommendation list to the Knowledge Base? That way, several people could contribute to keep it up-to-date. Also, people would keep a close look to make sure noone messes it up.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318302"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a good idea.  I'll look into that then.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=318303"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Most of the first posting has been placed into [a href="http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis]this wiki page[/url]. It seems to have acquire a life of its own  so would someone please check up on that page (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis)?

Thanx.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=355226"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Looks superb.  Many thanks to everyone who helped create and maintain the wiki.  It is very much appreciated.  Now I don't have to worry about being the only person to update it whenever John33 decides to change versions or a few URLs without me knowing


EDIT:  There is one thing that may be confusing to the average user and may require further explanation in a footnote.  I think the terms "channel coupling" and "noise normalisation" need to be explained a bit, so the average user can make an informed decision on what q to use.  They won't know whether it is good or bad, if you know what I mean.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2006-01-10 11:35:44
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--advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=X (where X is the lowpass frequency in khz)

isnt mentioned in the wiki  its my favorite option   i couldn't live without it
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=355946"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The problem is that changing it may not be "recommended" for average users.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-10 13:15:00
Quote
--advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=X (where X is the lowpass frequency in khz)

isnt mentioned in the wiki  its my favorite option   i couldn't live without it
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=355946"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But what problem does it solve, actually? I mean I put in INT and ITP because they try to fix problems (Pre-Echo and Microattack, respectively).
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-10 13:20:02
Quote
EDIT:  There is one thing that may be confusing to the average user and may require further explanation in a footnote.  I think the terms "channel coupling" and "noise normalisation" need to be explained a bit, so the average user can make an informed decision on what q to use.  They won't know whether it is good or bad, if you know what I mean.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=356003")
And I don't really know what they mean  I mean, I know the concept, but I'm afraid I will write it mistakenly.

However, I have replaced the plain column title with a Wiki internal link, which you can [a href="http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis#Recommended_Encoder_Settings]see here[/url]. So. Will someone please click on those links (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis#Recommended_Encoder_Settings) and write something correct?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-01-11 02:51:06
Quote
Quote
--advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=X (where X is the lowpass frequency in khz)

isnt mentioned in the wiki  its my favorite option   i couldn't live without it
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=355946"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But what problem does it solve, actually? I mean I put in INT and ITP because they try to fix problems (Pre-Echo and Microattack, respectively).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356026"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

*it fixes the muffeled sound issue at low quality settings (like q0) 
*of course it has the side effect of adding a bit more artifacts in the upper frequencies when moved up higher than the default 
*can be used to set a custom bandwidth at any given bitrate (higher or lower)  i remember reading (quite a long time ago, and i dont know where) some opinions that the lowpass fillter was set to high at q -1

it might not be 'recomended' for average users... but then again, average users probably wouldn't mess with it anyways
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-12 01:01:17
Quote
Quote
Quote
--advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=X (where X is the lowpass frequency in khz)

isnt mentioned in the wiki  its my favorite option   i couldn't live without it
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=355946"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But what problem does it solve, actually? I mean I put in INT and ITP because they try to fix problems (Pre-Echo and Microattack, respectively).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356026"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

*it fixes the muffeled sound issue at low quality settings (like q0) 
*of course it has the side effect of adding a bit more artifacts in the upper frequencies when moved up higher than the default 
*can be used to set a custom bandwidth at any given bitrate (higher or lower)  i remember reading (quite a long time ago, and i dont know where) some opinions that the lowpass fillter was set to high at q -1

it might not be 'recomended' for average users... but then again, average users probably wouldn't mess with it anyways [a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356210"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well the section title does say "Advanced Encoder Settings"...

If you can distill the benefit of lowpass_frequency into one line, I think you can add it to the wiki page. Don't worry about formatting, I'll beautify it for you    Or PM me and I'll put it in.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-01-12 01:55:37
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Well the section title does say "Advanced Encoder Settings"...[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356449"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i think it might also be nice to have a table with the default lowpass values for the quality values, but i think they are different for libvorbis and aotuv, do you think that would be a good and informative addition? i can make a list of them pretty easily if it would be a good idea.. they are all floating point values, so maybe just rounding them to the nearest tenth or hundredth?

Headline: "Adjusting the Lowpass frequency"

(being a new member, i would rather stay away from adding to the wiki for now  )
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-12 08:10:57
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i think it might also be nice to have a table with the default lowpass values for the quality values, but i think they are different for libvorbis and aotuv, do you think that would be a good and informative addition? i can make a list of them pretty easily if it would be a good idea.. they are all floating point values, so maybe just rounding them to the nearest tenth or hundredth?

Headline: "Adjusting the Lowpass frequency"

(being a new member, i would rather stay away from adding to the wiki for now  )
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=356455"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good headline unfortunately it doesn't really show the usefulness of adjusting the Lowpass frequency.

I suggest the title should be "Fixing Muffled Sound at Low q"

If you don't want to edit the wiki that's okay... um do you see how many posts I have made before editing the wiki? Heh I'm just as new as you 

Anyhoo, do post the table here (in this forum). I think you can round it to the nearest integer. I think a 0.1 Hz difference should not be significantly different. And I don't know if Xiph's and aoTuV's are different.

And if possible, also do a 1-paragraph writeup of when you use the switch, what's its effect, what encoder version is used, etc.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HotshotGG on 2006-01-12 09:55:40
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The problem is that changing it may not be "recommended" for average users.


No that's why we are going to stay clear of it and not mention it at all (adjusting the sliding lowpass filter can cause inherient problems too). If you want to know though I think it's around 18 kHz for -q 4 and above that it's really of no importance. -q 0 is around 15 kHz. I did write a page in reguard to Noise Normalization a long time ago it's there. It's under Noise normalization. Aoyumi fixed the switching levels too for it. It's much lower than I thought it was last time I checked.

Quote
*it fixes the muffeled sound issue at low quality settings (like q0)


-q 0 actually sounds quite well for streaming IMO. If there wasn't Noise Normalization it would sound much worse. The noise is pleasing to my ears.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-01-13 04:47:03
the lowpass at q4 was 20khz, aotuv has it at 18.3khz
q3 was at 18khz, aotuv is at 17.2
q0 is the same in both I think

(I'm making a table of the lowpass frequencies at the whole number quality values, and sample rates... this is gonna take me a little while  )

q0 is good for streaming cause of the bitrate, but IMO a 15khz cutoff is way to low

have any of you even tried q0 with out the cutoff at all? (don't compare it to the original, compare it to other codecs at the same bitrate) (do it with pop, rock doesn't do as good  )
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HotshotGG on 2006-01-13 04:56:02
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(I'm making a table of the lowpass frequencies at the whole number quality values, and sample rates... this is gonna take me a little while lalala.gif )


That's absurd. If you really have to go ahead, but add it in as 5th column.  People shouldn't touch it period.  Forget about sampling rates. If you are going to do that you might as well just tell people what type of block switching mode it uses for various sampling rates. That's going over board and is more information then people need to know about.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-01-16 01:45:35
ogg vorbis lowpass frequency:
the first column is the quality setting (-q)
the top row is the samplerates( 8999- means everything below 9000hz, 9000+ means that the lowpass frequencies in its column are valit untill it reaches the next 'step' in samplerate which would be 15000, etc.)
lowpass frequencies are in KHz
Code: [Select]
Qual\SR 8999-   9000+   15000+  19000+  26000+  40000+
------------------------------------------------------
-2      2.6     4.0     6.0     8.5     12.0    13.2
-1      3.0     4.5     6.5     9.5     12.6    14.8
0       4.0     5.5     7.5     10.5    13.0    15.1
1       4.0     8.0     10.4    13.1    13.0    15.8
2       4.0     10.4    15.3    17.3    14.0    16.5
3       4.0     12.9    20.2    21.6    15.0    17.2
4       4.0     15.3    25.1    25.8    99.0    18.3
5       4.0     17.8    30.0    30.0    99.0    20.1
6       4.0     20.2    43.8    43.8    99.0    48.0
7       4.0     22.7    57.6    57.6    99.0    999
8       4.0     25.1    71.4    71.4    99.0    999
9       4.0     27.6    85.2    85.2    99.0    999
10      4.0     30.0    99.0    99.0    99.0    999
This table is valid for Sample Rates of 6000-96000.
(I didn't test beyond that.)
OggEnc v2.6 (Lancer 20051121 based on aoTuV b4b)

Note: The lowpass frequencies were slightly higher in older versions, like oggenc v1.0.1. At 44100hz: q3 17.9, q4 20.5.

Note2: More info is a good thing  I personally got some good knowledge from creating this table.

edit: added a better explanation of how to read the table.. i hope
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: ckjnigel on 2006-01-17 09:08:53
Look, when you go above q5, it seems Ogg Vorbis has been designed for dogs.  But, I'm confident that these Japanese tweakers knew what they were doing in setting lowpass values.  Is it the judgment of the best codec engineers that high figures for the lowpass will improve quality even for people who cannot hear 20 khz?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-01-18 02:11:37
one thing to keep in mind, 44100hz sample rate audio can only produce a max audio frequency of 22050hz, so once the lowpass filter goes above that mark, it no longer has any effect.

if you can't hear to 20khz then setting the lowpass filter above that won't improve how you hear it, increasing the bitrate would though. on the other hand, maybe your dogs would enjoy the really high frequencies
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-18 18:48:25
Quote
Code: [Select]
Qual\SR 8999-   9000+   15000+  19000+  26000+  40000+
------------------------------------------------------
-2      2.6     4.0     6.0     8.5     12.0    13.2
-1      3.0     4.5     6.5     9.5     12.6    14.8
0       4.0     5.5     7.5     10.5    13.0    15.1
1       4.0     8.0     10.4    13.1    13.0    15.8
2       4.0     10.4    15.3    17.3    14.0    16.5
3       4.0     12.9    20.2    21.6    15.0    17.2
4       4.0     15.3    25.1    25.8    99.0    18.3
5       4.0     17.8    30.0    30.0    99.0    20.1
6       4.0     20.2    43.8    43.8    99.0    48.0
7       4.0     22.7    57.6    57.6    99.0    999
8       4.0     25.1    71.4    71.4    99.0    999
9       4.0     27.6    85.2    85.2    99.0    999
10      4.0     30.0    99.0    99.0    99.0    999
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=357461"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Uhhh... I don't really understand what the numbers mean... care to explain?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HotshotGG on 2006-01-18 19:14:14
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Look, when you go above q5, it seems Ogg Vorbis has been designed for dogs. But, I'm confident that these Japanese tweakers knew what they were doing in setting lowpass values. Is it the judgment of the best codec engineers that high figures for the lowpass will improve quality even for people who cannot hear 20 khz?


the lowpass filter is a "sliding lowpass" filter. What that means basically is that adjusted via a template for a specific quality level.  There is no reason to touch. Any reason would just assert "magical thinking". 999 means that there is no lowpass filter applied. It's the kind of that that whips people into frenzy.  If people are concerned about it then they should only use a -q 5 and up.

Quote
if you can't hear to 20khz then setting the lowpass filter above that won't improve how you hear it, increasing the bitrate would though. on the other hand, maybe your dogs would enjoy the really high frequencies


I don't think people have a "sub-sonic" hearing. There are discussions about this for legimate technical purposes all of the time for various other reasons. Streaming purposes you don't need to reconstruct the upper half of the spectrum.  The encoder has precomputed channel coupling point just like it has a precomputed lowpass filter setting. It's no coincidence that it was designed that way for a specific purpose.  Therefore this isn't going to be mentioned on recommended settings page.

"oggenc2 -q 0 --advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=999"

By doing this you are just forcing the encoder allocate less bits to each band and making the Noise Normalization code redistribute by band noise energy more. If you want to do this, that's fine but don't spread bad information... again "Magical Thinking".
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: ckjnigel on 2006-01-18 21:33:14
Quote
... "sliding lowpass" filter... no reason to touch...[that] whips people into frenzy...

Thanks very much, HotshotGG; I do now understand (sorta).
I remember Dibrom wringing his hands over how people would misuse options in LAME.
I especially enjoyed the contest to use LAME options to create the worst sounding files possible. Subsequently many of those options were removed!
BTW, I hope people have noticed that Aoyumi has posted on page 7 of the news discussion about the latest 128 kbps codec shootout.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HotshotGG on 2006-01-18 22:49:01
Quote
Thanks very much, HotshotGG; I do now understand (sorta).
I remember Dibrom wringing his hands over how people would misuse options in LAME.
I especially enjoyed the contest to use LAME options to create the worst sounding files possible. Subsequently many of those options were removed!
BTW, I hope people have noticed that Aoyumi has posted on page 7 of the news discussion about the latest 128 kbps codec shootout.


That's one reason why Vorbis doesn't have many advanced-encode options with the exception of a few.  The encoder control interfaces allows developers to add more for various "tweaking" purposes, but the end users end up playing around with them too much or start creating this ridiculous tweaks that they believe really do make a difference for their own purposes. The whole goal is to simplify the encoder for the average user that's why -q switches are used in Vorbis and to give the technically astute user a little more freedom, but nothing that's going to alter the zeitgeist of encoding. Yes, you are right LAME was a perfect example of this. One people start altering the ATH levels then you know you are in trouble. 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-01-19 02:27:56
the problem with that view....

oggenc input.wav output.ogg
^ is the only thing anyone should use, since it is the default that the developers chose

and
lame infile.wav outfile.mp3
also because its the default that the devs chose

the same goes for our own computers.
who doesnt have a custom wallpaper... its not the default that the developers chose.
etc. etc.

everyone has their own favorite encoding settings, so everyone has their own 'recomended' settings, I am just sharing mine.  what is the best settings for one person, is probably not the best settings for another. I have never bought into the whole 'if you move up the lowpass filter you end up with crap above and crap below' and I never will.

i like my encoding setting: oggenc2 -q 0 --advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=999
and often i have to listen quite closely to be able to hear a difference from the original (i can hear up to around 21khz, so I am far from deaf)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-19 14:09:57
Ahh... generally reformatted the Wiki page for this thread. Check it out here (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis).

Annnddd... one thing still irks me: If only the OggDropXPd manual is done  ... well anyways I created a stub for OggDropXPd you can check here (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=OggDropXPd), there's a section I call "Manual".

If someone would be kind enough to write the details down there... I'm at my office PC and it has no OggDropXPd... yet!

I still don't get the lowpass filter switch... if it accepts only one parameter, then how do I specify the lowpass freq?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-01-21 04:51:36
Quote
I still don't get the lowpass filter switch... if it accepts only one parameter, then how do I specify the lowpass freq?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358278"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

lowpass_frequency=XX is the paramer to --advanced-encode-option
XX is the lowpass frequency in KHz, so you can use stuff like 17.98245 for a lowpass frequency

oggenc -q 0 --advanced-encode-option lowpass_frequency=18 input.wav

^^ just copy and paste  encodes at quality 0 with a lowpass of 18khz
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HotshotGG on 2006-01-21 05:02:48
Quote
I still don't get the lowpass filter switch... if it accepts only one parameter, then how do I specify the lowpass freq?


it doesn't belong in the wiki if you add any information related to I will remove it. Zealous magical thinking doesn't outweigh the needs of many. I will make a note of it though, but I more than willing to bet QuantumKnot would agree with me 120% anyway.

Quote
Annnddd... one thing still irks me: If only the OggDropXPd manual is done tongue.gif ... well anyways I created a stub for OggDropXPd you can check here, there's a section I call "Manual".


The page looks good.  . Keep working on it.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-22 17:35:35
Quote
Quote
I still don't get the lowpass filter switch... if it accepts only one parameter, then how do I specify the lowpass freq?


it doesn't belong in the wiki if you add any information related to I will remove it. Zealous magical thinking doesn't outweigh the needs of many. I will make a note of it though, but I more than willing to bet QuantumKnot would agree with me 120% anyway.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=358706"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
After much soul-searching    well not that much actually  I agree with you. AFAIK these values (whatever they're supposed to mean) are tuned between versions. Unless we want to change the Wiki page into a changelog I don't see a reason to write it in.

After all, the page is called "Recommended ..." and these lowpass selftunes, I believe, are not recommended 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-01-23 02:38:41
Quote
Quote
Annnddd... one thing still irks me: If only the OggDropXPd manual is done tongue.gif ... well anyways I created a stub for OggDropXPd you can check here, there's a section I call "Manual".
The page looks good.  . Keep working on it.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=358706")
More meat has gone into the OggDropXPd manual.    I decided not to use the downloadable manual from rarewares. I know this decision may or may not cause disagreement...

... or not  so please check out [a href="http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=OggDropXPd]the OggDropXPd page at Wiki[/url] and tell me what y'all.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Rucksacksepp on 2006-05-11 17:13:31
Hi,
i got a problem: Always when i convert files with one of the commandline encoders listed above i can't play it with my mp3-player (or only some files). i played them in foobar and there i get the message "files is corrupted" but it plays. Can anyone tell me why the encoder creates corrupted files?
Thanks in advance.
Greetz
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: john33 on 2006-05-11 17:21:18
Hi,
i got a problem: Always when i convert files with one of the commandline encoders listed above i can't play it with my mp3-player (or only some files). i played them in foobar and there i get the message "files is corrupted" but it plays. Can anyone tell me why the encoder creates corrupted files?
Thanks in advance.
Greetz

The short answer is they don't create corrupted files, but tell us what command line you're using and we'll take it from there.

Quote
Quote
Annnddd... one thing still irks me: If only the OggDropXPd manual is done tongue.gif ... well anyways I created a stub for OggDropXPd you can check here, there's a section I call "Manual".
The page looks good.  . Keep working on it.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=358706")
More meat has gone into the OggDropXPd manual.    I decided not to use the downloadable manual from rarewares. I know this decision may or may not cause disagreement...

... or not  so please check out [a href="http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=OggDropXPd]the OggDropXPd page at Wiki[/url] and tell me what y'all.

Sorry, I know it's well after the fact, but there's no disagreement here.  You seem to be doing a good job, so do please carry right on with it.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-05-11 20:53:29

... or not  so please check out the OggDropXPd page at Wiki (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=OggDropXPd) and tell me what y'all.
Sorry, I know it's well after the fact, but there's no disagreement here.  You seem to be doing a good job, so do please carry right on with it.
Ahh... you have put me to shame, John. I had been abandoning this page for quite some time...

Well, I've just updated it. Some slight rewords, now it's not *the* manual but a *quickstart* manual. The description for all the advanced settings may be waaaaaaay over the head for Vorbis newbies.

Inputs welcome.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-05-31 18:12:56
Hurrah! Pop open those champagne bottle cause version 1.0 of the Encoding QuickStart for OggDropXPd is *finally* complete!

Check this out (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=OggDropXPd) and please give feedback.

Peace!
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Moguta on 2006-07-05 00:52:02
The Rarewares links in the main post don't seem to be working.  Had to go download the files manually.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-07-05 15:50:36
The links are probably out-of-date.

Use the wiki page referenced in the first post.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-08-08 08:01:11
Oookay, more than 6 months since aoTuV beta 4.51 (aka aoTuV b4b) has been released (in 2005-11-17).

Anyone got a bone to pick with aoTuV beta 4.51?

Can we modify the wiki section here (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis#3rd_party_source_code) (and elsewhere on the same page/wiki) so that the recommended aoTuV is now beta 4.51?

If no one disagree, let's -- within this week or so -- change the page.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-08-21 23:14:49
Wiki page modified.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: fpi on 2006-08-22 08:09:41
ogg vorbis lowpass frequency:
the first column is the quality setting (-q)
the top row is the samplerates( 8999- means everything below 9000hz, 9000+ means that the lowpass frequencies in its column are valit untill it reaches the next 'step' in samplerate which would be 15000, etc.)
lowpass frequencies are in KHz
Code: [Select]
Qual\SR 8999-   9000+   15000+  19000+  26000+  40000+
------------------------------------------------------
-2      2.6     4.0     6.0     8.5     12.0    13.2
-1      3.0     4.5     6.5     9.5     12.6    14.8
0       4.0     5.5     7.5     10.5    13.0    15.1
1       4.0     8.0     10.4    13.1    13.0    15.8
2       4.0     10.4    15.3    17.3    14.0    16.5
3       4.0     12.9    20.2    21.6    15.0    17.2
4       4.0     15.3    25.1    25.8    99.0    18.3
5       4.0     17.8    30.0    30.0    99.0    20.1
6       4.0     20.2    43.8    43.8    99.0    48.0
7       4.0     22.7    57.6    57.6    99.0    999
8       4.0     25.1    71.4    71.4    99.0    999
9       4.0     27.6    85.2    85.2    99.0    999
10      4.0     30.0    99.0    99.0    99.0    999
This table is valid for Sample Rates of 6000-96000.
(I didn't test beyond that.)
OggEnc v2.6 (Lancer 20051121 based on aoTuV b4b)

Note: The lowpass frequencies were slightly higher in older versions, like oggenc v1.0.1. At 44100hz: q3 17.9, q4 20.5.

Note2: More info is a good thing  I personally got some good knowledge from creating this table.

edit: added a better explanation of how to read the table.. i hope


What about adding these to the table in the wiki?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-08-23 18:41:41
What about adding these to the table in the wiki?

This has been discussed before. Please read the posts.

The answer is: no, never.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-08-23 19:42:22
aoTuV beta4.51 has been updated to aoTuV Release 1 (2006/08/23).

link (http://www.geocities.jp/aoyoume/aotuv/)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: HotshotGG on 2006-08-23 20:07:32
Interesting. We will have to make a note of that for the wiki. Thanks. 
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Mekatype on 2006-08-30 00:00:55
The first page of this thread should be updated as well.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2006-09-06 19:01:23
The first page of this thread should be updated as well.
Well, the first post already links to the wiki and explicitly said that one should check the Wiki for more up-to-date info.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: ®om on 2006-10-07 10:44:34
I'd like to have ogg aoTuV r1 in "Win32 DLL (not reference)", but on the aotuv page, there is only this for b4.51  ... ?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Mangix on 2006-10-07 19:32:02
@om: try this. http://homepage3.nifty.com/blacksword/ (http://homepage3.nifty.com/blacksword/)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: gg5335 on 2007-01-02 14:41:23
hi all
I have a problem about the vorbis encoder...
If my CPU is Pentium D
which vorbis encoder should I use?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Mangix on 2007-01-02 23:54:15
the SSE3 one on the website which i previously provided. you could also download the MT version as well if you want.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Spikey on 2007-01-07 05:31:31
And, aoTuV's beta 5 is released. Which is better quality-wise anyway? Lancer's build or OggdropXpd's?

Also, unfortunately, John's Rarewares.org has been suspended.

- Spike
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Junon on 2007-01-07 12:34:00
And, aoTuV's beta 5 is released. Which is better quality-wise anyway? Lancer's build or OggdropXpd's?


Nobody has ever been able to ABX the differences between Blacksword's Lancer builds and john33's ones which are based on Aoyumi's reference implementation. Hence you can safely use the faster Lancer builds.

Edit: Grammar, grammar!
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: dissociative on 2007-05-18 02:04:05
which vorbis decoders are safe for ABX-ing?
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: smok3 on 2007-05-21 15:09:35
<deleteme>links to rarewares files seems to be borken</deleteme>
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2007-05-22 06:09:50
<deleteme>links to rarewares files seems to be borken</deleteme>
Aaaaahhh... they're borken!

I blame roberto
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: rjamorim on 2007-06-14 03:20:15
Could someone please fix the links in the first post?

oggenc28: it's no longer in dancer, and beta 4.51 is no longer in RareWares. You can either link here (generic) (http://www.rarewares.org/files/ogg/oggenc2.83-aoTuVr1generic.zip), here (P3) (http://www.rarewares.org/files/ogg/oggenc2.83-aoTuVr1P3.zip) and here (P4) (http://www.rarewares.org/files/ogg/oggenc2.83-aoTuVr1P4.zip) for the r1 build, or here (http://www.rarewares.org/ogg-oggenc.php#oggenc-aotuv) if you decide to go ahead with b5.

Same thing about OggDrop, either link here (http://www.rarewares.org/ogg-oggdropxpd.php#oggdrop-aotuv) or use the new dancer tags:
http://www.rarewares.org/dancer/dancer.php...gdrop-aoTuV-gen (http://www.rarewares.org/dancer/dancer.php?f=oggdrop-aoTuV-gen)
http://www.rarewares.org/dancer/dancer.php...ggdrop-aoTuV-P3 (http://www.rarewares.org/dancer/dancer.php?f=oggdrop-aoTuV-P3)
http://www.rarewares.org/dancer/dancer.php...ggdrop-aoTuV-P4 (http://www.rarewares.org/dancer/dancer.php?f=oggdrop-aoTuV-P4)
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2007-06-14 07:02:18
IMO all links should just be removed.

I never understand the logic of having to maintain a forum post (that can only be edited by mods or the original poster) and a wiki page.  WTF?  Way to make life twice as hard, and confuse the user (wiki and post are rarely synchronised)!  I fought to stop the MP3 settings sticky being maintained, to no avail.

Anyway (), 4.51 links updated, until a decision is made on the HA recommended version.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: pepoluan on 2007-06-22 19:16:11
The Recommended Vorbis page on the HAK (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis) has been updated.

Please also join the discussion (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Talk:Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis#Vendor_Tag_table).
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: QuantumKnot on 2007-07-19 13:09:39
Sorry, been out of action for a while.  The wiki had long replaced this thread.

IMO all links should just be removed.


I agree.  So this has been enacted.
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Haubi on 2008-01-29 22:56:16
I was searching for the optimal command line options for ripping with EAC v0.99pb3 (ExactAudioCopy) but didn't found something useful. So I examined some nice things out by my own.
It's optimized for using with the recommended oggenc2.exe (oggenc2.84-aoTuVb5-generic.zip) at the moment.

-q2,22 -a "%a" -t "%t" -l "%g" -d "%y" -N "%n" -G "%m" %s -o %d

Explanation:
-q  Quality between -2 (low) and 10 (high)
-a  Name of artist
-t  Title for this track
-l  Name of album
-d  Date for track (usually date of performance)
-N  Track number for this track
-G  Genre of track
%s  Input file
-o  Write file to fn (only valid in single-file mode)
%d  Output file
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Steve Forte Rio on 2009-07-16 10:53:11
Does anyone have changelog for libvorbis with list of changes in latest version 1.2.3??
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Aoyumi on 2009-07-16 15:44:26
Does anyone have changelog for libvorbis with list of changes in latest version 1.2.3??

From "CHANGES" file.

libvorbis 1.2.3 (2009-07-09) -- "Xiph.Org libVorbis I 20090709"

* correct a vorbisfile bug that prevented proper playback of
  Vorbis files where all audio in a logical stream is in a
  single page
* Additional decode setup hardening against malicious streams
* Add 'OV_EXCLUDE_STATIC_CALLBACKS' define for developers who
  wish to avoid avoid unused symbol warnings from the static
  callbacks defined in vorbisfile.h
Title: Recommended Encoder Versions and Settings
Post by: Steve Forte Rio on 2009-07-16 19:39:24
Does update contains fixes only?
I'm waiting for improving of encoding quality... 
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