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CD-R and Audio Hardware => Audio Hardware => Topic started by: pr0m3th3u5 on 2020-09-30 17:06:13

Title: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: pr0m3th3u5 on 2020-09-30 17:06:13
OPUS has been here for a while and has one of the best efficiencies among lossy codecs. It's even open source so no royalties...

So why is the adoption rate for OPUS in DAPs so abysmal?
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: johnb on 2020-09-30 18:17:37
The firmware of Xduoo X3ii supports Opus.
Players with Rockbox on them, of course do, too.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: Heliologue on 2020-09-30 19:18:16
So why is the adoption rate for OPUS in DAPs so abysmal?

Same reason it was abysmal for Vorbis. Where's the incentive for manufacturers?  MP3 and AAC still hold the lion's share of the market, which is shrinking for dedicated DAPs anyway, as most people will happily use their phone/etc.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2020-09-30 19:30:43
Right.   Digital music is distributed on CDs, MP3 (Amazon) and AAC (Apple).  If you want your Taylor Swift album in Opus you'll have to convert it yourself.

It's not a big deal for a manufacturer to add a CODEC to their firmware but the support costs might not be worth the slight-additional sales.    If they thought it would be profitable I'm sure they'd do it!  ;)
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: lithopsian on 2020-09-30 20:33:39
Same old story of "there's no demand".  No demand because it doesn't exist.  AAC is popular because people were more or less forced to use it, not because there was a massive clamour for it.  Depressing.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: binaryhermit on 2020-09-30 21:59:47
Probably 2 weeks after the last DAP is made...
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: ani_Jackal3 on 2020-10-01 18:57:44
Same old story of "there's no demand".  No demand because it doesn't exist.  AAC is popular because people were more or less forced to use it, not because there was a massive clamour for it.  Depressing.

And AAC/MP3 are mature codecs i don't see the point on anything outside MP3/AAC at the 160 ~ 256kbps area. Vorbis/Opus still suffer from windy puff artifact & need above 320kbps to fix it which shows in some tracks in my collection.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: ajp9 on 2020-10-01 19:29:00
So why is the adoption rate for OPUS in DAPs so abysmal?

Same reason it was abysmal for Vorbis. Where's the incentive for manufacturers?  MP3 and AAC still hold the lion's share of the market, which is shrinking for dedicated DAPs anyway, as most people will happily use their phone/etc.
Support for Vorbis was slow to materialize, but it's there now. I think the bigger overlap is with the cost of drive space much cheaper that there's less incentive for newer lossy formats. People can download FLACs of their favorite tunes, and play as is on a FiiO device for under $100.

Same old story of "there's no demand".  No demand because it doesn't exist.  AAC is popular because people were more or less forced to use it, not because there was a massive clamour for it.  Depressing.

And AAC/MP3 are mature codecs i don't see the point on anything outside MP3/AAC at the 160 ~ 256kbps area. Vorbis/Opus still suffer from windy puff artifact & need above 320kbps to fix it which shows in some tracks in my collection.
What kind of tracks? I've never had a windy puff artifact problem with Vorbis at 268 kbps VBR aoTuV.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: ani_Jackal3 on 2020-10-01 21:55:25
So why is the adoption rate for OPUS in DAPs so abysmal?

Same reason it was abysmal for Vorbis. Where's the incentive for manufacturers?  MP3 and AAC still hold the lion's share of the market, which is shrinking for dedicated DAPs anyway, as most people will happily use their phone/etc.
Support for Vorbis was slow to materialize, but it's there now. I think the bigger overlap is with the cost of drive space much cheaper that there's less incentive for newer lossy formats. People can download FLACs of their favorite tunes, and play as is on a FiiO device for under $100.

Same old story of "there's no demand".  No demand because it doesn't exist.  AAC is popular because people were more or less forced to use it, not because there was a massive clamour for it.  Depressing.

And AAC/MP3 are mature codecs i don't see the point on anything outside MP3/AAC at the 160 ~ 256kbps area. Vorbis/Opus still suffer from windy puff artifact & need above 320kbps to fix it which shows in some tracks in my collection.
What kind of tracks? I've never had a windy puff artifact problem with Vorbis at 268 kbps VBR aoTuV.

Merzbow - Kongara, Need 350kbps aoTuV to sound fine. But 192kbps AAC/MP3 sound fine.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: IgorC on 2020-10-02 13:40:38
And AAC/MP3 are mature codecs i don't see the point on anything outside MP3/AAC at the 160 ~ 256kbps area. Vorbis/Opus still suffer from windy puff artifact & need above 320kbps to fix it which shows in some tracks in my collection.
Can You provide a sample (up to 30 seconds) where Vorbis/Opus have such artifact? You can upload it here https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?board=35.0
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: clintb on 2020-10-03 01:09:57
iBasso DX160, HiBy R6 Pro and Sony NW-ZX507 all support Opus.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: magicgoose on 2020-10-03 11:38:24
Are dedicated DAPs with fully custom software even needed these days? Everything can just run Android. (where Opus support is built into the OS, and even if it's not usable for some reason, you can install a player which supports it, such as foobar2000 for Android)
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: jaybeee on 2020-10-03 14:01:00
Are dedicated DAPs with fully custom software even needed these days? Everything can just run Android. (where Opus support is built into the OS, and even if it's not usable for some reason, you can install a player which supports it, such as foobar2000 for Android)
Exactly. I just dusted off my wife's old Samsung A3, factory reset it, installed foobar2000 and added a load of Opus encoded tracks for my kids to use (instead of the 20 year portable CD player I recently found and they snatched and started using lol. AA batteries being used up like nobody's business!).
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: IgorC on 2020-10-03 15:43:04
@ani_Jackal3

And AAC/MP3 are mature codecs i don't see the point on anything outside MP3/AAC at the 160 ~ 256kbps area. Vorbis/Opus still suffer from windy puff artifact & need above 320kbps to fix it which shows in some tracks in my collection.
Can You provide a sample (up to 30 seconds) where Vorbis/Opus have such artifact? You can upload it here https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?board=35.0

Also read Terms of Service (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=3974).  More specifically TOS8:

Quote
TOS 8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims.  Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings.  Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.

Basically until moment You weren't able to provide any evidence of your claims.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: clintb on 2020-10-05 16:50:01
Are dedicated DAPs with fully custom software even needed these days? Everything can just run Android. (where Opus support is built into the OS, and even if it's not usable for some reason, you can install a player which supports it, such as foobar2000 for Android)
I don't know the validity of such claims, but there's people that say the Android OS gets in the way of resampling, pure audio path and probably some other things of which I don't recall. Eh, whatever. I prefer to have the option of installing any apps (or none at all) on my DAP and Android allows that.
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: includemeout on 2020-10-05 20:29:00
I don't know the validity of such claims, but there's people that say the Android OS gets in the way of resampling, pure audio path and probably some other things of which I don't recall.
 
People!? Who? Self-proclaimed audiophiles!?
Title: Re: When will DAPs start supporting OPUS?
Post by: clintb on 2020-10-07 01:51:55
I don't know the validity of such claims, but there's people that say the Android OS gets in the way of resampling, pure audio path and probably some other things of which I don't recall.

People!? Who? Self-proclaimed audiophiles!?
If I were to guess, probably the same people claiming they NEED and can hear how much better 192/24 FLAC files sound. Oh, and don't forget the fully unfolding (of your wallet) MQA files. Gotta have them, too!
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