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Hydrogenaudio Forum => General Audio => Topic started by: brandonluciano824 on 2018-08-13 00:32:24

Title: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: brandonluciano824 on 2018-08-13 00:32:24
So I have a 16-bit FLAC audio file of a song and also a 24-bit version. However, I don't know whether the 24-bit FLAC is legit since when opening in Spek, the spectrogram is different. I know the 16-bit is a legitimate FLAC file but unsure about the 24-bit one. I also don't know much about audio I will admit and I'm sure I can't tell audio differences between the 2 but since I had access to 24-bit, was curious.

16-bit:
Size: 32.4 MB
Bit Rate: 921 kbps

24-bit:
Size: 54.8 MB
Bit Rate:  1601 kbps


16-bit SPEK:
(https://i.imgur.com/K66yLBy.jpg)

24-bit SPEK:
(https://i.imgur.com/8rfDonj.jpg)

Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: kode54 on 2018-08-13 03:34:51
The 16 bit one clearly has noise shaped dithering filling out the high frequency range.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Anakunda on 2018-08-13 16:35:07
What's the source of the 24 bit song?

That looks like it's lossy mastered which is legit.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Porcus on 2018-08-13 17:50:00
looks like it's lossy mastered

Does it? (Apart from the low-pass filter at 20.5, which of course is a "lossy" operation, but you know my drift.)

Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: brandonluciano824 on 2018-08-13 18:40:09
What's the source of the 24 bit song?

That looks like it's lossy mastered which is legit.

TIDAL HI-FI Masters MQA
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Anakunda on 2018-08-13 19:52:56
MQA is known to use filtering and hi-frequency noise, so it only confirms my assumption that it's legit regarding to encoding used.

Btw. it's actually lossy.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: dragut on 2018-10-15 12:19:48
* * * 16-bit is a legitimate FLAC file
* * * I also don't know much about audio
Yep... first of all: both flac files are legitimate. They are simple stupid containers and they have nothing to do with their content. It could be tough wav, it could be mp3... flac simple doesn't care.
You need to decode that files and then to do all your testing and show the meta data of source files. Flac is not music-file but archivator (as zip, 7z, rar etc...)
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: probedb on 2018-10-15 12:39:47
Yep... first of all: both flac files are legitimate. They are simple stupid containers and they have nothing to do with their content. It could be tough wav, it could be mp3... flac simple doesn't care.
You need to decode that files and then to do all your testing and show the meta data of source files. Flac is not music-file but archivator (as zip, 7z, rar etc...)

Erm. OK. FLAC is NOT a container format.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Wombat on 2018-10-15 14:45:24
Erm. OK. FLAC is NOT a container format.
Sorry for off topic but i don't know much about defining formats and containers.
Can't FLAC serve as container when it is used to carry encrypted PCM (MQA-DRM) or DSD? I can imagine it isn't because the data in this case camouflages as PCM.
Any expert?
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Porcus on 2018-10-15 15:04:49
xiph calls the FLAC file format "a very minimalist container" (https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg). The distinction between "file format" and "container" is quite blurry if one wants to nitpick, but I guess one would in everyday terms use "container format" for file formats that are designed to contain different kinds of streams. 
(... ffmpeg has put mp2 streams in mp3 files, does that make mp3 a container format?  I'd say "no, unless you want to nitpick - and maybe not even if you want to".)

Can't FLAC serve as container when it is used to carry encrypted PCM (MQA-DRM) or DSD? I can imagine it isn't because the data in this case camouflages as PCM.
Any expert?
If you really want to use FLAC as a general purpose compressor, you can. Use the option --force-raw-format
Then it can contain already-compressed encrypted .7z if you like.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Wombat on 2018-10-15 15:14:18
Thanks for that. So i can call FLAC a container best suited for PCM audio ;)
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Case on 2018-10-15 15:59:17
xiph calls the FLAC file format "a very minimalist container" (https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg).
It doesn't. It calls FLAC a codec in that question entry but correctly calls it a format elsewhere. They just mention that native FLAC in its native format is most lightweight way to carry the bits. Ogg container for example would increase the file size.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: dragut on 2018-10-15 19:06:50
Thanks for that. So i can call FLAC a container best suited for PCM audio ;)
Why do you want to give your own name to anything? Just learn to use their real names and description. Much easier for the future. Developers calls their Flac "codec" (as one guy here mentioned above) but, in computer terms, each lossless codec is also container (as it is MP4 or MKV for example). It will play anything what you put-in and will never take care about it's quality. Flac can decode PCM on the fly but loss in sound quality is enormous: nearly twice! Flac best attitude is lossless file compression so instead of 1,000 CD albums, you can keep 2,000 CD albums in the same space.

Idea is to stop understanding Flac as the guarantee for inside music quality. That's all. From that point of fiew, Flac is stupid. Its simple do not care what is inside it. Is it CD real or decoded to WAV from MP3 file, you can check out with some utilities as aucdtect or simple visually as here on the screen.

Imho, source for both screens is the same (some losy archive) only the first one is artifically "colorized" as kode54 mentioned. "Most lightweight way to carry the bits" is nicely said too.

All my music collection, if is not burned to CD or DVD. is in Flac.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Wombat on 2018-10-15 19:33:32
Huh?
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: greynol on 2018-10-15 21:48:23
Flac is a format in a minimalist container.  Flac, the tool, is also a codec.  Will Monkey's Audio be able to decode the compressed audio data inside the flac file?  I didn't think so.

Yes, the compressed audio data inside could be sourced from anything.  It is obviously not a guarantee of losslessness.  Sampling an analog waveform into digitized data is also not lossless for that matter.  The stuff that's encoded with a program like flac or flake and placed in a flac (or ogg) container is the very same stuff when it is pulled out of the container and decoded.  This process is lossless and there is no loss in quality; not this, "enormous, nearly 2x loss in sound quality" nonsense.

I'm also reading elsewhere more bullshit like this:
And, WAV is container too. With lossless compress-algorithm.
What's the point in calling sandwiched data in a container, in its raw uncompressed form, compression?

Let's not bog topics like this down through trivial and incorrect nitpicking and defending it in a Dunning-Krueger fashion.

If you can't tell I'm a bit annoyed.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Porcus on 2018-10-15 22:20:24
xiph calls the FLAC file format "a very minimalist container" (https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg).
It doesn't.
Errr? Go to the link. Text-search, and you will find the quote I copy/pasted.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: dragut on 2018-10-15 23:25:20
* * * If you can't tell I'm a bit annoyed.
If you don't understand WAV as container, you are not just annoyed... all you wrote is bullshit.
Try sometimes to read "bullshit" written by qualified people... maybe you can learn something... but probably not...
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Porcus on 2018-10-15 23:54:55
If you don't understand WAV as container, you are not just annoyed... all you wrote is bullshit.
In contrast to your claim that WAV comes with a lossless compression algorithm?

And ...
Quote
Flac can decode PCM on the fly but loss in sound quality is enormous: nearly twice!
Suggestion: Bong today, Hydrogenaudio tomorrow. Not that much of both on the same night.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: greynol on 2018-10-16 00:12:53
* * * If you can't tell I'm a bit annoyed.
If you don't understand WAV as container, you are not just annoyed... all you wrote is bullshit.
Try sometimes to read "bullshit" written by qualified people... maybe you can learn something... but probably not...
One of us understands that wav is a container that doesn't employ a compression algorithm.

Like I said: Dunning-Kreuger
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Wombat on 2018-10-16 00:19:01
Flac is a format in a minimalist container.  Flac, the tool, is also a codec.
Guess this is what i keep from this OT ramble, thanks.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: probedb on 2018-10-17 07:40:55

Guess this is what i keep from this OT ramble, thanks.

Indeed, the full quote was from a question about Ogg-FLAC:

Quote
What is the difference between (native) FLAC and Ogg FLAC?

You can think of an audio codec as having two layers. The inside layer is the raw compressed data, and the outside layer is the "container" or "transport layer" that splits and arranges the compressed data in pieces so it can be seeked through, edited, etc.

"Native" FLAC is the compressed FLAC data stored in a very minimalist container, designed to be very efficient at storing single audio streams.

Ogg FLAC is the compressed FLAC data stored in an Ogg container. Ogg is a much more powerful transport layer that enables mixing several kinds of different streams (audio, data, metadata, etc). The overhead is slightly higher than with native FLAC.

In either case, the compressed FLAC data is the same and one can be converted to the other without re-encoding.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: greynol on 2018-10-17 07:53:04
Pretty basic stuff.  Why links have been taken out of context in an attempt to prove an incorrect point is anyone's guess (or not anyone's, IDK).
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: BrilliantBob on 2018-10-18 04:35:05
greynol and dragut, you both have right ;-)

The most common WAV audio format is uncompressed audio in the linear pulse code modulation (LPCM) format. LPCM is also the standard audio coding format for audio CDs.

By the other hand, the WAV format supports compressed audio using, on Microsoft Windows, the Audio Compression Manager.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: greynol on 2018-10-18 04:54:50
Regardless of whether it's PCM, ADPCM, etc. WAV is still just a container.  It is not a compression format (lossless or lossy), nor is it a codec.

I'm also reading elsewhere more bullshit like this:
And, WAV is container too. With lossless compress-algorithm.
Absolutely not!
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: dragut on 2018-10-18 12:34:23
greynol and dragut, you both have right ;-)

The most common WAV audio format is uncompressed audio in the linear pulse code modulation (LPCM) format. LPCM is also the standard audio coding format for audio CDs.

By the other hand, the WAV format supports compressed audio using, on Microsoft Windows, the Audio Compression Manager.
Thanks Bob. So many idiots here so your words gave some pleasure...
Does container compress it's content or not -- that's probably not the most important (WAV not of course so, when I wrote about WAV "lossless compression" -- I wasn;t precise to the 100%. Should wrote "packing without losses". The key idea is that WAV is not raw music file format (MSoft of course). If WAV is NOT that what many people think it is, how about FLAC then? :)) Some writing about FLAC as it is raw PCM format with guaranteed quality (means FLAC = Lossless --> so file there is perfect).
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Wombat on 2018-10-18 14:13:58
Thanks Bob. So many idiots here so your words gave some pleasure...
Does container compress it's content or not -- that's probably not the most important (WAV not of course so, when I wrote about WAV "lossless compression" -- I wasn;t precise to the 100%. Should wrote "packing without losses". The key idea is that WAV is not raw music file format (MSoft of course). If WAV is NOT that what many people think it is, how about FLAC then? :)) Some writing about FLAC as it is raw PCM format with guaranteed quality (means FLAC = Lossless --> so file there is perfect).
Huh? None does is imagine RAWPCM²=FLAC
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Porcus on 2018-10-18 15:38:03
This is where I think I should take a short timeout and read @Wombat's signature ...
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: BrilliantBob on 2018-10-18 16:21:03
how about FLAC then? :)) Some writing about FLAC as it is raw PCM format with guaranteed quality (means FLAC = Lossless --> so file there is perfect).

According to FLAC's developers, FLAC is the fastest losless compressor for WAV, like 7z for any other files. With flac.exe you can compress/decompress any WAV file. Finally, the raw data that matter for audio players remain "untouched", only metadata may differ at some point, but this doesn't matter. The woodoo science people think FLAC is an audio encoder because many players decompress-and-run FLAC's formats on-the-fly.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: greynol on 2018-10-18 17:56:31
New marketing strategy: it employs a sophisticated "lossless compression algorithm"...
(https://www.ikea.com/us/en/images/products/sockerbit-storage-box-with-lid-blue__0630794_PE694898_S4.JPG)
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: dragut on 2018-10-18 18:59:46
how about FLAC then? :)) Some writing about FLAC as it is raw PCM format with guaranteed quality (means FLAC = Lossless --> so file there is perfect).

According to FLAC's developers, FLAC is the fastest losless compressor for WAV, like 7z for any other files. With flac.exe you can compress/decompress any WAV file. Finally, the raw data that matter for audio players remain "untouched", only metadata may differ at some point, but this doesn't matter. The woodoo science people think FLAC is an audio encoder because many players decompress-and-run FLAC's formats on-the-fly.
Agree.. Flac is probably the best but it is not "lossless" music file :) Without Flac, you can do everything you want. But, without MLP for example, you can't create many DVD-Audio discs when total bitrate really matter...
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: Case on 2018-10-18 19:08:02
You seem to have some fundamental problem understanding what lossless means. It means the decoded file will be identical to the original source and FLAC very much is lossless.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: kode54 on 2018-10-19 04:00:43
I think he was trying to imply it's not lossless because you can stuff any data you want into it, including decoded MP3 files. But in that case, CDs aren't lossless either, since you can burn audio tracks from any lossy source you want.
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: dragut on 2018-10-19 11:28:39
I think he was trying to imply it's not lossless because you can stuff any data you want into it, including decoded MP3 files. But in that case, CDs aren't lossless either, since you can burn audio tracks from any lossy source you want.
Exactly. Using "Lossless" as term is main issue. Files can't be lossles or losy (even CD of course). Only the way how you packing them, coding them, archiving them can be lossless or losy. "Lossless codec" means that you'll get out (unpacked, decoded...) absolutely(!) the same file as you put it in (each bit). Nothing more and nothing less. And it can be file of any quality. Lossless doesn't mean "Good audio file".
Title: Re: Fake 24-bit FLAC?
Post by: kode54 on 2018-10-20 00:21:19
It does, however, mean "Potentially perfect audio", in the sense that it technically could be a high quality input, but it may not be. It just means that if the source of the file is not lying about it being high quality, then the FLAC format itself won't damage the quality any more than the original source was already damaged in production.

Correct, it isn't some mystical guarantee of quality. What you put into it is exactly what you get out of it. Like archive formats that don't throw information away, it replicates its input exactly, with no additional loss. Recompressing it with these formats will also have no additional loss, and may only have added benefit of newer algorithms better compressing the data.

Garbage in, garbage out.
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