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Hydrogenaudio Forum => General Audio => Topic started by: mmrkaic on 26 November, 2017, 09:26:39 PM

Title: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 26 November, 2017, 09:26:39 PM
Today I felt a bit nostalgic and washed some 20 vinyl records that I had bought at various thrift stores. [Also, I somewhat wanted to see what the vinyl mania is all about.] When I was a kid we listened to vinyl because there was nothing else and I remember not liking the experience. I just resigned myself to the popping and noise and other auditory imperfections of vinyl. But hey, maybe I missed something in my youth. Hipsters and audiophiles might be onto something after all.

So, I started listening to a recording of Rachmaninoff 2 by Entremont and could not finish because of all the popping and noise. (And I like Entremont and the way he does Rachmaninoff.) Then I listened to another LP -- Symphony No. 5 by Shostakovitch. There was less popping and noise and it was passable. I managed to listen to the whole piece.

But, still, after that experience I was perplexed. What is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017? It is so obviously inferior. (For those of you who know some physics, it should suffice to calculate the RMS voltage of thermal noise in the phono coil to see that vinyl is inferior to 16 it CD in the best case.) When I was a kid there was nothing else, so we kind of had to do it. But today's experience was a stark reminder of the inferiority of vinyl. Its only advantage might be visual -- it is nice to see the spinning disc. But that "novelty" wears off quickly, a bit like looking at the glow of tubes. Newly issued LPs might have less popping and noise than vintage ones, but they cost between $30 and $40. So, what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 26 November, 2017, 11:42:10 PM
When I was a kid no one I played with had a vinyl record player or vinyl records.  We had tapes and CDs and I'm pretty sure tapes were already dying off completely by the mid to late 90's.

I started wondering what vinyl sounded like after seeing it in various cartoons of the day and movies and eventually I found out around the time I was in my mid-teens around 2003.  Discovered some great old music but the format wasn't in any better than what I was used to hearing and in a lot of ways worse (snap, pop, crackle), still kind of neat to experience though.

For what it's worth, it maybe for the curious worth experiencing and to understand how far we've come in terms of that but there is zero point for it to become the dominant form of physical distribution at all.  Something that is best kept in museums at the end of the day.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 27 November, 2017, 12:16:12 AM
When I was a kid no one I played with had a vinyl record player or vinyl records.  We had tapes and CDs and I'm pretty sure tapes were already dying off completely by the mid to late 90's.

I started wondering what vinyl sounded like after seeing it in various cartoons of the day and movies and eventually I found out around the time I was in my mid-teens around 2003.  Discovered some great old music but the format wasn't in any better than what I was used to hearing and in a lot of ways worse (snap, pop, crackle), still kind of neat to experience though.

For what it's worth, it maybe for the curious worth experiencing and to understand how far we've come in terms of that but there is zero point for it to become the dominant form of physical distribution at all.  Something that is best kept in museums at the end of the day.

You are a young man.  I was in my mid teens around 1983. Lots of vinyl around then.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: KozmoNaut on 27 November, 2017, 04:35:22 AM
what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?

Nostalgia, mostly. There is also a certain factor of physicality to the format, you can see the grooves, see the pickup moving across the record, reproducing the music. The big bold cover art also plays a big part.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: cliveb on 27 November, 2017, 05:04:23 AM
As an old fogey (now 60) who grew up with vinyl, my observations are as follows:

Disadvantages of vinyl:
1. Sound quality very much inferior to CD. That said, it can sound surprisingly good - sufficient for enjoyable listening. I have plenty of needle drops in my collection that have been declicked and are as enjoyable to listen to as CD rips.
2. Inconvenience. Playing a vinyl LP is a bit of a rigmarole.
3. Fragility. Easy to damage, and an LP degrades to a tiny degree on every play.

Advantages of vinyl:
1. The ~40min time limitation on an LP tends to make the artist put more thought into an album. Pop/rock/jazz LPs in the past tended to be well thought out works. Moderns CD albums have a heck of a lot of filler that wouldn't have made the cut in the days of LP. (Classical is different: being able to listen to an entire symphony without getting up is a big plus for digital).
2. There's something strangely satisfying about the physical process of playing an LP. This is a corollary to point #2 in the disadvantage list - it may be a rigmarole, but it's an enjoyable rigmarole.
3. Artwork.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 27 November, 2017, 06:31:07 AM
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

I don't think you'll shock anyone by saying that it did not sound as good as a purely digital format can.

The point of your post, other than informing us that you're such a discerning listener is mostly lost on me.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Shostakovich on 27 November, 2017, 01:59:53 PM
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

I don't think you'll shock anyone by saying that it did not sound as good as a purely digital format can.

The point of your post, other than informing us that you're such a discerning listener is mostly lost on me.

It doesn't make any sense to say that the most intrusive audio format, vinyl, with all its sonic distortions, favors concentration. Digital is transparent, it doesn't interfere with the listening experience. Just imagine listening a vinyl when you know where every distortions are, and instead of listening to the music you're just waiting for them.
I think reality is in fact the opposite, people like vinyl because the music is not enough, and they need the paraphernalia to fill the attention gaps.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: 4season on 27 November, 2017, 02:09:38 PM
Sometimes lack of convenience is an advantage! Maybe because my vinyl collection is small and it's not super-convenient for me to buy more on a whim, I've gotten to know some of the individual albums pretty well, and usually listen to at least one uninterrupted side at a time, rather than picking out individual tracks.

And for me, it can be a pretty good way to discover music: I see that I can purchase Narciso Yepes's performance of Concierto de Aranjez as part of a large downloadable collection for a reasonable price, but fact of the matter is, I might never have discovered Yepes at all were it not for an initial purchase on DG vinyl.

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 27 November, 2017, 02:56:36 PM
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

I don't think you'll shock anyone by saying that it did not sound as good as a purely digital format can.

The point of your post, other than informing us that you're such a discerning listener is mostly lost on me.

It doesn't make any sense to say that the most intrusive audio format, vinyl, with all its sonic distortions, favors concentration. Digital is transparent, it doesn't interfere with the listening experience. Just imagine listening a vinyl when you know where every distortions are, and instead of listening to the music you're just waiting for them.
I think reality is in fact the opposite, people like vinyl because the music is not enough, and they need the paraphernalia to fill the attention gaps.

I think you totally miss the point. I like vinyl as a listening medium in the same way I prefer a V12 to an electric car, a mechanical watch to a quartz. Both of these are demonstrably worse than the newer (and cheaper) alternatives, but they don't move and involve me the way the the mechanical ones do.

I don't need my system to be 'measurably' the best, I need it to be an enjoyable listening experience to me. I don't need to validate my choices by speaking about the foibles of others. I know what I like and what makes me happy. If you can find happiness in an iPod with 10,000 tracks, then more power to you. For me, I like vinyl.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 27 November, 2017, 02:58:13 PM
As if one must listen to non-vinyl in a shuffled order and while playing games. What a bunch of utter nonsense.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 27 November, 2017, 03:01:23 PM
I don't need to validate my choices by speaking about the foibles of others.
Yet that was precisely what you did!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 27 November, 2017, 03:36:44 PM
I don't need to validate my choices by speaking about the foibles of others.
Yet that was precisely what you did!

Where did I speak about the foibles of digital audio?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 27 November, 2017, 03:40:25 PM
As if one must listen to non-vinyl in a shuffled order and while playing games. What a bunch of utter nonsense.
As if one must listen to non-vinyl in a shuffled order and while playing games. What a bunch of utter nonsense.

I never said that. Also, what makes you angry about me listening to music that is not of the highest possible quality. Who cares? I personally don’t want tied to a computer or phone when I listen to music.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Shostakovich on 27 November, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
Vinyl is not a V12, it's a steam engine car, and hipsters don't use a horn, they scream CHU-CHU as they pass by.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 27 November, 2017, 03:54:46 PM
For the record (no pun intended) I've listened to vinyl records before while doing other things (browsing the internet, talking to other people, etc.) and I've listened to whole albums of CDs and digital downloads while doing nothing else.  At least with the later two I don't have to manually adjust anything to listen to a whole album (it just works 99.9% of the time).

I don't see vinyl really forcing you to actually listen to the music itself, but rather listening for when it might start messing up.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Audible! on 27 November, 2017, 04:29:40 PM
I don't need to validate my choices by speaking about the foibles of others.
Yet that was precisely what you did!

Assuredly that was not precisely what Funkstar did; (s)he isn't pointing at anyone else's foibles at all, but rather is attempting to explain why (s)he enjoys the vinyl listening experience irrespective of the fact that the medium is completely inferior. 

Other than the (IMO completely accurate) points made by cliveb, I find vinyl profoundly annoying and would invariably choose a high bitrate MP3 made from a needledrop if no digital version were available.

But to the OPs point:
Quote
What is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?
Material that hasn't been converted to the digital domain (obscure, masters are lost, etc) is the principal "real" point I can think of. This is still definitely the case for some jazz and folk and classical LPs, though happily less so then in years past.

There are some edge cases where it's possible the only extant CD version was badly botched during the transfer process, and so the LP legitimately sounds better.

Though not relevant to that point (because the error carried over to vinyl), the first handful of CD releases of In The Court Of The Crimson King used a flawed transfer from the original masters, which was only rectified relatively recently.

One can easily imagine scenarios where the only digital version of an album is derived from a worn/flawed old record master rather than the original tapes. This is why Mobile Fidelity made legitimately better sounding CD versions of a number of albums in the 80s/90s and were able to charge double (albeit by also pimping the ludicrous gold reflective layer).
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 27 November, 2017, 05:05:56 PM
So listening inattentively was his own foible and there was no implication that it was the foible of others.  Ok, whatever you say.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Audible! on 27 November, 2017, 06:59:27 PM
So listening inattentively was his own foible and there was no implication that it was the foible of others.  Ok, whatever you say.

At no point did Funkstar state what you have there. It does not appear to be implied or even readily inferred.

Indeed, (s)he was careful to talk about personal preference and use the pronoun I over and over, while simultaneously stating that vinyl is inherently inferior.

Sorry if "I know it's not as good but I like the experience" annoys you so much; there's a lot of that in many avenues of life.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 27 November, 2017, 07:08:09 PM
Right.  Whatever you say. ;)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Audible! on 27 November, 2017, 07:28:38 PM
It's official, greynol is now a vinyl fan! 32 bit needle drops for everyone!  :D
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Shostakovich on 27 November, 2017, 07:37:55 PM
So listening inattentively was his own foible and there was no implication that it was the foible of others.  Ok, whatever you say.

At no point did Funkstar state what you have there. It does not appear to be implied or even readily inferred.

Indeed, (s)he was careful to talk about personal preference and use the pronoun I over and over, while simultaneously stating that vinyl is inherently inferior.

Sorry if "I know it's not as good but I like the experience" annoys you so much; there's a lot of that in many avenues of life.


Funkstar is implying that the digital experience is inferior because digital is more convenient. What do you think "If you can find happiness in an iPod with 10,000 tracks, then more power to you" means? That's not innocent, nor shows just a "personal preference", it obviously shows a sense of entitlement, of superiority.
It means that he can go that extra mile, the mile that digital users can not go, because he's the real deal, the real connoisseur. Only if it's inconvinient, is a real experience. The fact that this is pure idiotic snobbery, doesn't change the fact that he's actually implying it.

All that vintage machines with moving parts, the glowing tubes, the big and bold covers, the dead tech fetishism, the collecting, but above all the sense of superiority, is what drives all this vinyl snobbery, and not the good old music.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Audible! on 27 November, 2017, 08:30:50 PM

Funkstar is implying that the digital experience is inferior because digital is more convenient. What do you think "If you can find happiness in an iPod with 10,000 tracks, then more power to you" means? That's not innocent, nor shows just a "personal preference", it obviously shows a sense of entitlement, of superiority.
It means that he can go that extra mile, the mile that digital users can not go, because he's the real deal, the real connoisseur. Only if it's inconvinient, is a real experience. The fact that this is pure idiotic snobbery, doesn't change the fact that he's actually implying it.

Nonsense. (S)he is overtly stating a personal preference, knowing the medium is patently inferior, and stating that the personal preference of others may well be different. You just don't like the way it was phrased, I guess.

Literally everything else you wrote is your interpretation of someone else's intent based upon something other than their words. You appear to be assuming an intonation that partially negates the actual words written.

For crying out loud, there are enough idiots who will make claims about LPs being technically superior to be concerned about reading some veiled implication into a post that is unambiguously and undeniably couched as a personal preference.

If someone were to say "I personally prefer the experience of listening to microcassette tapes (which are demonstrably worse than digital options) played through a single blown Ford Pinto AM radio speaker, powered by a hand-crank 500mW amp, mounted on the ceiling, in a basement lit only with beef tallow candles, in knee-high water, wearing nothing but sweat socks, while drinking cheap Canadian whiskey from an old chandelier, reciting the Avesta backwards, and crying about my departed bulldog Fred; if you can find happiness with an iPod, more power to you", would you be comparably annoyed?
 
Functionally, it's fairly close to the same thing.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: The Seeker on 28 November, 2017, 01:37:34 AM
Vinyl discussions never usually get snippy!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 28 November, 2017, 02:12:42 AM
So listening inattentively was his own foible and there was no implication that it was the foible of others.  Ok, whatever you say.

At no point did Funkstar state what you have there. It does not appear to be implied or even readily inferred.

Indeed, (s)he was careful to talk about personal preference and use the pronoun I over and over, while simultaneously stating that vinyl is inherently inferior.

Sorry if "I know it's not as good but I like the experience" annoys you so much; there's a lot of that in many avenues of life.


Funkstar is implying that the digital experience is inferior because digital is more convenient. What do you think "If you can find happiness in an iPod with 10,000 tracks, then more power to you" means? That's not innocent, nor shows just a "personal preference", it obviously shows a sense of entitlement, of superiority.
It means that he can go that extra mile, the mile that digital users can not go, because he's the real deal, the real connoisseur. Only if it's inconvinient, is a real experience. The fact that this is pure idiotic snobbery, doesn't change the fact that he's actually implying it.

All that vintage machines with moving parts, the glowing tubes, the big and bold covers, the dead tech fetishism, the collecting, but above all the sense of superiority, is what drives all this vinyl snobbery, and not the good old music.

I think you have a chip on your shoulder about something. Why can’t I listen to music any way I please? You and Greynol seem to be very angry that I am happy with my sub optimal choice. And no, it wasn’t elitist what I said about the iPod, it was to demonstrate that you can have vastly more music, in perfect quality, for little money. Being a human myself, I have a more subjective experience. Yes I can hear that a record doesn’t sound as good, but my experience of listening to it far exceeds anything else I have tried.

God forbid I would like objects and machines. What an old fashioned elitist bastard I must be. I should trade it all in for a Spotify subscription - then I wouldn’t even need files!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Shostakovich on 28 November, 2017, 04:08:32 AM
To prefer form over function is just fetishism. To disguise this fetishism condescendingly as a superior experience is laughable. Vinyl is a joke.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: KozmoNaut on 28 November, 2017, 04:27:27 AM
To prefer form over function is just fetishism. To disguise this fetishism condescendingly as a superior experience is laughable. Vinyl is a joke.

Listening to vinyl is a bit like insisting on riding a fixie bicycle everywhere or making your own old-fashioned castile soap. It's laborious and objectively worse when compared to modern alternatives, but it does have a certain silly retro charm to it.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 28 November, 2017, 04:57:39 AM
To prefer form over function is just fetishism. To disguise this fetishism condescendingly as a superior experience is laughable. Vinyl is a joke.

I'm not a robot, so for many thing I do prefer form over function. Cars, watches, art... I don't see anything wrong with it. I'm not quite sure why it riles people so much.

I know a Toyota Prius is cheaper, safer and more fuel efficient than my car - but I still prefer the experience of mine.
I know a quartz watch keeps better time, is cheaper and more reliable than mine, but I still like my nice mechanical watch.
I know that a VST synthesizer sounds similar to the real thing, is cheaper and way more convenient, but I still like the physicality and the way I interact with the real things.
I know my records are not quite the quality of a digital system, but I still prefer the experience of listening to them.

I don't see the problem with any of those statements. I am an electrical design engineer, every single day I work on electrical systems on front of a computer. I certainly don't want tied to another PC/Phone/etc. when I listen to music. It's my preference really.

But I suppose you could make another argument that at least half of the music I own is not available on any other format than vinyl. I guess I should change my musical taste too :-D

I find it funny that I am viewed as the elitist, when in reality almost everyone in this thread is annoyed that I'm not listening to my music in the 'best possible quality'. However you find a way to best enjoy music, I don't care. Be it FLAC, MP3, MiniDisk or vinyl, the pros and cons of all are a well understood subject now.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Shostakovich on 28 November, 2017, 05:49:29 AM
In the internet there are a lot of forums for every imaginable fetish. I think the problem is not that you have a certain fetish,  of what I couldn't care less, it's that I think this forum is more about science.
I think Hoffman's forum, for example, will be much more sympathetic with your inclinations.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Funkstar De Luxe on 28 November, 2017, 08:37:43 AM
In the internet there are a lot of forums for every imaginable fetish. I think the problem is not that you have a certain fetish,  of what I couldn't care less, it's that I think this forum is more about science.
I think Hoffman's forum, for example, will be much more sympathetic with your inclinations.


Exactly. That however does not excuse the tone of the arguments and hostility pitted against me. And from a moderator no less. I offered my opinion, nothing more. To assert that I implied that I was the only person who knew how to listen to music, or that I was implying that digital formats can only be listened to on shuffle is absurd. Lots of fragile egos here now, who can't seem to handle an opinion gently opposed to their own.

If you guys want to have a circle jerk about how terrible vinyl is, then fine, but don't get all bent out of shape when you receive a contradictory reply to topics which quite literally state "So, what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?".

And no, I think there may be a middle ground between the measurement nazis here and the snake oil salesmen of the Hoffman forums. Something are good enough.

Rant not aimed at you, ShostakovichPosts :-)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 28 November, 2017, 08:47:54 AM
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

Where did I speak about the foibles of digital audio?
You must be really dense.  ::)
Btw, I have a TT also. BFD
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 28 November, 2017, 10:12:00 AM
I love how it's OK to infer that I'm angry and/or annoyed but not OK to infer, gently, that someone is being "such " a dense hypocrite.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: 4season on 28 November, 2017, 11:49:05 AM
To prefer form over function is just fetishism.

Now that's pretty extreme, and I'd argue that delivering a certain enjoyment can be a function too, albeit a subjective one.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Audible! on 28 November, 2017, 01:37:12 PM
Quote from: Funkstar De Luxe
Lots of fragile egos here now, who can't seem to handle an opinion gently opposed to their own.

It's clearly a reflexive (and rather dramatic) overreaction based on long experience with "audiophile" woo (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Woo).
This is fairly understandable, given the pervasiveness of abject nonsense one encounters even casually looking at audio subject matter on the old series of tubes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes).

As such, an indication that someone might prefer the subjective experience of listening to a medium, even if they openly state it's technically inferior in every respect, will be confronted with overwhelming rhetorical force since it smacks of said woo. It seems like it would behoove some folks to not take things so personally...

It would be interesting to compare this thread with discussions about preferences in transducer equipment.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume someone expressing a preference for a technically inferior speaker over objectively superior options would not encounter anything like the kind of reaction seen in this thread.

"I prefer the experience of listening to my Tivoli model 1 radio over that of my Paradigm Prestige 95 floorstanders. The Tivoli is obviously much inferior in frequency response and distortion, but something about the constraining experience of the little speaker and manual dial appeals to me; if you like the experience of your B&W 804s, more power to you."

<crickets>

Quote from: greynol
I love how it's OK to infer that I'm angry and/or annoyed but not OK to infer, gently, that someone is being "such " a dense hypocrite.
The curse of a sunny disposition I'm afraid. :D
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: cliveb on 29 November, 2017, 04:52:20 AM
It is with some trepidation that I offer this opinion, but here goes anyway...

I think Funkstar might have something of a point when he talks about not browsing the net or skipping tracks when listening to vinyl. My hypothesis is that the effort involved in playing an LP has a psychological effect that encourages the listener to pay more attention so that the effort they've just expended doesn't get squandered.

This is a scientific forum, but psychology is still a science of some sort, isn't it? (Not proper science like maths or physics, of course  ;) )
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 29 November, 2017, 06:02:07 AM
No, no. It was entirely a personal foible.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: EekWit on 29 November, 2017, 06:58:27 AM
Isn't the comparison of vinyl and iPod a false one anyway? CD is the digital equivalent of vinyl and is almost as inconvenient when listened to on a traditional hifi setup.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 29 November, 2017, 08:32:42 AM
I offer this opinion..
Right, a lot of vinylphiles also hold that "opinion". In fact, they tend to parrot it in every discussion like this, almost as if it were some sort of evidence based fact. It isn't.
Trying to justify ones preference with specious claims goes beyond mere opinion.
No need for anything other than "I prefer vinyl sound". That's it. No big deal, a lot of old timers do.

cheers,

AJ
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 29 November, 2017, 10:57:55 AM
Psychology is no longer a science once you strike the ology portion.

Damn that pesky evidence!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 29 November, 2017, 11:22:13 AM
Right, a lot of vinylphiles also hold that "opinion". In fact, they tend to parrot it in every discussion like this, almost as if it were some sort of evidence based fact. It isn't.
Not even when it is self-fulfilling? There is certainly a rich literature on placebo, confirmation bias and internal commitment mechanisms.

I guess most of us above a certain age, have put been through the rite: put on an LP and listen to the music while you open the gatefold cover and have a look at the artwork. If that makes you focus more on the product, it is likely not due to the audio part.
(And to those who have heard a boring bootleg of a show that was great ...)

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 29 November, 2017, 12:05:31 PM
Not even when it is self-fulfilling?
Nothing "self-fulfilling" about vinylphile parroted claims about ADD, playing games, skipping tracks and all that BS.
They like vinyl because that's the "sound" they prefer, period. A lot of old timers do.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: 2Bdecided on 29 November, 2017, 01:12:35 PM
So, I started listening to a recording of Rachmaninoff 2 by Entremont and could not finish because of all the popping and noise. (And I like Entremont and the way he does Rachmaninoff.) Then I listened to another LP -- Symphony No. 5 by Shostakovitch. There was less popping and noise and it was passable. I managed to listen to the whole piece.
"Typical" pop/rock tends to hide the background noise. Unless the record is worn or damaged (most used records are), vinyl is good enough.

I don't know how classical fans coped in the vinyl era. Unless the record is mint, most dynamic classical music is unlistenable on vinyl. I can tolerate classical 78s with their constant background noise more easily than classical LPs with clicks and pops. Wow and flutter can be an audible problem on classical piano music at a level that wouldn't trouble most other genres.

People don't always wear clothes that are most comfortable or best suited to the climate they live in. Similarly people don't always use the audio medium best suited to listening to music ;-)

Cheers,
David.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 29 November, 2017, 05:55:16 PM
Not even when it is self-fulfilling?
Nothing "self-fulfilling" about vinylphile parroted claims about ADD, playing games, skipping tracks and all that BS.
They like vinyl because that's the "sound" they prefer, period. A lot of old timers do.

I suggest you go back to what you quoted and read "effort [...] has a psychological effect". Nothing about sound in that.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 29 November, 2017, 05:57:39 PM
I don't know how classical fans coped in the vinyl era. Unless the record is mint, most dynamic classical music is unlistenable on vinyl.

Pretty much like how they coped with concerts and live audience? By trying to listen to the music and ignore annoyances?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 29 November, 2017, 06:14:36 PM
I suggest you go back to what you quoted and read "effort [...] has a psychological effect". Nothing about sound in that.
I suggest you comprehend what is written, or get help from someone who can.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 29 November, 2017, 06:19:15 PM
Pretty much like how they coped with concerts and live audience? By trying to listen to the music and ignore annoyances?
But obviously not the urge to play games, skip tracks, spew red herrings
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 29 November, 2017, 07:00:49 PM
I suggest you comprehend what is written, or get help from someone who can.
Why cannot I do what you did, namely cut the quote down to the part you thought you could deciphre?

Everyone else can have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Paradigms
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 29 November, 2017, 07:08:09 PM
Why cannot I do what you did
Because you have zero evidence and only vinylphile BS speculation. That's why.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Audible! on 30 November, 2017, 12:27:24 AM
 ??? :o Someone has said something mildly positive about their subjective preference for a technically inferior recording medium!

Slaughter the livestock! 
Burn the crops!
Salt the fields!

 >:(  All shall suffer my wroth!  >:(
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: McGlear on 30 November, 2017, 04:14:15 AM
I think the reasons for the percieved superiority of vinyl might lie elsewhere entirely: Crappy mastering for the CD release!
There are examples where the CD release is based on an overcompressed, loudness-focused master, while the vinyl release is targeted at a different group of customers (namely those self-proclaimed audiophiles with real loudspeakers in a quiet living room) and thus the vinyl doesn't need the overcompression that's usually required for cheap, small headphones or car radios...
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: KozmoNaut on 30 November, 2017, 04:55:18 AM
I think the reasons for the percieved superiority of vinyl might lie elsewhere entirely: Crappy mastering for the CD release!
There are examples where the CD release is based on an overcompressed, loudness-focused master, while the vinyl release is targeted at a different group of customers (namely those self-proclaimed audiophiles with real loudspeakers in a quiet living room) and thus the vinyl doesn't need the overcompression that's usually required for cheap, small headphones or car radios...

I've seen this theory a number of times (and I used to believe it myself), but I have not seen any definite proof at all. Nothing points to this being a common practice at all.

Most of the time, it seems to stem from a misunderstanding of DR values posted to http://dr.loudness-war.info, without accounting for the fact that calculating DR values from LPs is akin to black magic and very prone to faults.

I have checked a number of albums I own on both CD and LP and as far as I can tell, the actual dynamic range is extremely close or identical, pointing to the fact that they have been created from the exact same master, clippression and all, in some cases. So far, I have only found a single album (Lamb of God - VII: Sturm und Drang) where the LP may have been created from a different master, but it isn't 100% conclusive.

The vast majority of LP releases are simply cash grabs, intended to extract additional cash from fans, by offering a seemingly endless array of "limited edition" colored vinyl releases, with false promises of higher sound quality and fake collectibility. Fortunately, this fad seems to be winding down. Hopefully I will manage to sell off all of my modern LPs before the prices crash.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: McGlear on 30 November, 2017, 05:16:48 AM
I've seen this theory a number of times (and I used to believe it myself), but I have not seen any definite proof at all. Nothing points to this being a common practice at all.

Most of the time, it seems to stem from a misunderstanding of DR values posted to http://dr.loudness-war.info, without accounting for the fact that calculating DR values from LPs is akin to black magic and very prone to faults.

I have checked a number of albums I own on both CD and LP and as far as I can tell, the actual dynamic range is extremely close or identical, pointing to the fact that they have been created from the exact same master, clippression and all, in some cases. So far, I have only found a single album (Lamb of God - VII: Sturm und Drang) where the LP may have been created from a different master, but it isn't 100% conclusive.

The vast majority of LP releases are simply cash grabs, intended to extract additional cash from fans, by offering a seemingly endless array of "limited edition" colored vinyl releases, with false promises of higher sound quality and fake collectibility. Fortunately, this fad seems to be winding down. Hopefully I will manage to sell off all of my modern LPs before the prices crash.

I don't listen to vinyl myself, so I have no way to compare and thus test this theory. Common example appears to be "I'm with you" by RHCP. And of course there is the broad range of "digitally remastered" crap out there - and those people who own the original master on vinyl and then buy the new CD because they fall for the "digitally remastered" propaganda will be disappointed and spread the opinion that "vinyl sounds better". I agree that current releases are usually either quite good on any medium (Daft Punk - Random Access Memories) or crappy on any medium (Metallica - Death Magnetic)... ;)


EDIT:
There are a few more examples in the knowledge base:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Vinyl_Mastering
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: krabapple on 30 November, 2017, 07:00:06 AM
I don't listen to vinyl myself, so I have no way to compare and thus test this theory. Common example appears to be "I'm with you" by RHCP. And of course there is the broad range of "digitally remastered" crap out there - and those people who own the original master on vinyl and then buy the new CD because they fall for the "digitally remastered" propaganda will be disappointed and spread the opinion that "vinyl sounds better". I agree that current releases are usually either quite good on any medium (Daft Punk - Random Access Memories) or crappy on any medium (Metallica - Death Magnetic)... ;)


EDIT:
There are a few more examples in the knowledge base:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Vinyl_Mastering

Let 's be clear.  What you hear on vinyl is virtually never the 'original master'.  The original master is what was created (on tape or digital) in the mixing studio.  In fact,  *mastering*, the practice, was invented because vinyl playback was a more limited medium than tape. So the tape had to be 'mastered for vinyl', e.g. bass summing, re-EQ, etc.  That's what you hear on vinyl: a more or less compromised version of the original mixdown master.

CD was the first medium which offered the opportunity of letting you hear what was on the *original master* (tape, and later, digital file) with no generational loss or EQ/dynamic range alteration (a so-called 'flat transfer').  For better or worse!  Sometimes the original master doesn't sound so great.  (Maybe it was created on shitty loudspeakers; maybe the engineer or producer was high; etc). 

Complicating matters further sometimes the CD wasn't sourced from the original master tape, but from a copy -  including copies re-equed specifically for vinyl (a 'vinyl production master') .  An endless circle of confusion.

Sometimes elements (musical parts) or sounds (e.g. fades)  were added during actual cutting of the vinyl (and captured on the vinyl production master).  Arguably *that* becomes the  'original master' -- but you're basically promoting the vinyl production master, with all its other EQ etc moves,  to 'original master' status.  Sometimes you can go back to the original mixdown master and replicate the additions for CD....sometimes not.

And then there's the fact that for everything but classical (maybe), it quickly became the practice to 'remaster' for CD -- goosing the EQ, editing out tape noise, and starting in the early 90s, limiting the dynamic range.  Because, I guess, mastering engineers had to have something to do.  And: business. 

So now we're a situation where offering a 'flat transfer of the original mixdown masters' has become a *bonus feature* on some deluxe CD/BluRay releases.  Back when CD began, it was *what was promised*.  ::)












Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: krabapple on 30 November, 2017, 07:05:58 AM
Also as far as the bickering on this thread:  you get to like what you like.  You get to prefer vinyl over  digital for whatever reason , whether its the way it sounds to you, or the packaging, or the 'experience'.  I'm sure all three play into it for vinylphiles to varying degrees.  I miss those big album covers too.

You don't get to claim technical superiority or higher fidelity for vinyl technology over digital.  You don't get to claim (not that anyone has yet) that one is inevitably more 'engaging' than the other, for everyone.

 
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: KozmoNaut on 30 November, 2017, 07:17:12 AM
I don't listen to vinyl myself, so I have no way to compare and thus test this theory. Common example appears to be "I'm with you" by RHCP. And of course there is the broad range of "digitally remastered" crap out there - and those people who own the original master on vinyl and then buy the new CD because they fall for the "digitally remastered" propaganda will be disappointed and spread the opinion that "vinyl sounds better". I agree that current releases are usually either quite good on any medium (Daft Punk - Random Access Memories) or crappy on any medium (Metallica - Death Magnetic)... ;)


EDIT:
There are a few more examples in the knowledge base:
http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Vinyl_Mastering

I know "Californication" also used a better (ie. not compressed and smashed all to hell) master for the LP release. But the number of releases where this is the case is extremely small, possibly in the low double digits, unless we're talking about extremely narrow niche releases.

For older albums (pre-CD) it can be the case that the original LP release can be more dynamic and have better mastering than a subsequent CD release, especially if it has been subjected to a bad late-90s/early-00s let's-crank-everything-to-11 remastering hackjob. LP re-releases are very likely to have then been created from the same CD-targeted remaster.

A lot of people seem to think that "buy the album on LP for better sound quality" is some kind of universal truth, when it's actually just bullshit, probably by some clever marketer who wants to reap the much higher profit margins on LPs.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: McGlear on 30 November, 2017, 07:39:48 AM
Sometimes elements (musical parts) or sounds (e.g. fades)  were added during actual cutting of the vinyl (and captured on the vinyl production master).  Arguably *that* becomes the  'original master' -- but you're basically promoting the vinyl production master, with all its other EQ etc moves,  to 'original master' status.  Sometimes you can go back to the original mixdown master and replicate the additions for CD....sometimes not.

Just a poor choice of words. With "original" I was trying to discriminate the *first* vinyl master from the *later* "Digital remaster". Nothing more, nothing less.



For older albums (pre-CD) it can be the case that the original LP release can be more dynamic and have better mastering than a subsequent CD release, especially if it has been subjected to a bad late-90s/early-00s let's-crank-everything-to-11 remastering hackjob. LP re-releases are very likely to have then been created from the same CD-targeted remaster.

A lot of people seem to think that "buy the album on LP for better sound quality" is some kind of universal truth, when it's actually just bullshit, probably by some clever marketer who wants to reap the much higher profit margins on LPs.

The interesting question is: When did the CD get a bad rep? I wouldn't be surprised if those "bad late-90s/early-00s let's-crank-everything-to-11 remastering hackjobs" you mention play a big role here. And it's not that rare of a phenomenon - on the contrary, it's quite hard for many albums to get "original" (oh dear, there is that word again) releases nowadays - it's not always the case that the remaster is bad, but there is a reason for the anti-loudness-war-movement. And just jumping into the wikipedia article on "Loudness war" you already get examples of how the loudness was increased with each release.

So I guess my point still stands: Those people who own *original* (dammit!) vinyl releases from their youth and have later decided to update their music library to the newer format (hm, that Ikea Expedit doesn't go well with my new furniture - where will all my LPs go?) got disappointed by the CD and have wrongly generalized their opinion to the medium.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 30 November, 2017, 08:22:00 AM
Also as far as the bickering on this thread:  you get to like what you like.
Since your post came via digital ethernet, mid way reading it, I started playing games, felt fatigued, unfocused and skipped to the next reply.
It's psychology, not visual you see.
Don't dare ask me for scientific evidence to support this!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 30 November, 2017, 08:24:18 AM
I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.
You must be really dense.  ::)
Someone has said something mildly postive extremely daft about their subjective preference for a technically inferior recording medium!
Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 30 November, 2017, 01:04:38 PM
Today I felt a bit nostalgic and washed some 20 vinyl records that I had bought at various thrift stores. [Also, I somewhat wanted to see what the vinyl mania is all about.] When I was a kid we listened to vinyl because there was nothing else and I remember not liking the experience. I just resigned myself to the popping and noise and other auditory imperfections of vinyl. But hey, maybe I missed something in my youth. Hipsters and audiophiles might be onto something after all.

So, I started listening to a recording of Rachmaninoff 2 by Entremont and could not finish because of all the popping and noise. (And I like Entremont and the way he does Rachmaninoff.) Then I listened to another LP -- Symphony No. 5 by Shostakovitch. There was less popping and noise and it was passable. I managed to listen to the whole piece.

But, still, after that experience I was perplexed. What is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017? It is so obviously inferior. (For those of you who know some physics, it should suffice to calculate the RMS voltage of thermal noise in the phono coil to see that vinyl is inferior to 16 it CD in the best case.) When I was a kid there was nothing else, so we kind of had to do it. But today's experience was a stark reminder of the inferiority of vinyl. Its only advantage might be visual -- it is nice to see the spinning disc. But that "novelty" wears off quickly, a bit like looking at the glow of tubes. Newly issued LPs might have less popping and noise than vintage ones, but they cost between $30 and $40. So, what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?

You might be interested to know that a good bit of ticks and pops are an artifact of the phono preamp which can exacerbate them if it has stability problems.

If you are running a low output moving coil, if you find that you have to load the cartridge with a low resistance to get it to sound right, this is a sign that the phono preamp is unstable. Loading of the cartridge does not affect it at audio frequencies, what is does is detune the tank circuit caused by the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the tone arm cable. The RFI induced by this tank circuit can affect the sound of the phono circuit if that circuit is unstable. Stopping resistors anyone?? Most inexpensive phono preamps are unstable- many designers don't realize that the tank circuit can be over a 30db peak; that there is a lot more to it than a circuit that has enough gain and also the EQ.

Now if you are on a budget and are running a high output moving magnet cartridge, loading of the cartridge at audio frequencies is critical as the coil will ring. In addition, the resonant peak has moved to a much lower frequency and may be in the audio passband. This has to be tamed!

For more on this phenomena, Jim Hagerman has an excellent tutorial on his site:

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

The stability of the phono preamp is not a function of feedback or not and also not a function of tubes or solid state. Generally speaking, if the circuit is immune to RFI, its far more likely that you will be hearing less ticks and pops over the album side. This is not due to a lack of bandwidth but the stability of the circuit. Anyone who has dealt with an oscillation on the gate of MOSFET due to the lack of a stopping resistor knows what I am talking about.

It might also interest you to know that when an LP is produced, a test pressing is made to insure that the stampers are good. The producer and artist have to sign off on the test pressing- excess ticks and pops are not acceptable. I am very used to not hearing a single tick or pop when I play records unless the media is damaged by mishandling, but my phono preamp is quite stable in the presence of RFI.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: 4season on 30 November, 2017, 02:32:49 PM
Now if you are on a budget and are running a high output moving magnet cartridge, loading of the cartridge at audio frequencies is critical as the coil will ring. In addition, the resonant peak has moved to a much lower frequency and may be in the audio passband. This has to be tamed!

For more on this phenomena, Jim Hagerman has an excellent tutorial on his site:

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

If optimized per Jim Hagerman's calculator, and nothing else was amiss (mistracking) would you expect moving magnet phono cartridges to sound essentially the same?

Because I've got one of these new turntables with internal preamp, capacitance of the cabling from cartridge pins to the preamp is low, below 50 pF. And if the spec that I found on lpgear.com is correct, inductance of my Audio Technica AT95E cartridge measured at 1 kHz is 400 mH, which puts my resonant frequency at 35.6 kHz, and suggests that I only need change the resistive load from 47K ohms to 89.4K ohms, and that ought to give me the most linear response that I'm going to get out of it. And given that the cost of a pair of 1/8th watt surface mount resistors is some fraction of a penny, it sounds like a pretty cost-effective mod to me!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 30 November, 2017, 03:00:55 PM
Now if you are on a budget and are running a high output moving magnet cartridge, loading of the cartridge at audio frequencies is critical as the coil will ring. In addition, the resonant peak has moved to a much lower frequency and may be in the audio passband. This has to be tamed!

For more on this phenomena, Jim Hagerman has an excellent tutorial on his site:

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

If optimized per Jim Hagerman's calculator, and nothing else was amiss (mistracking) would you expect moving magnet phono cartridges to sound essentially the same?

Yes, if the tonearm is capable of tracking the cartridge correctly.

Quote
Because I've got one of these new turntables with internal preamp, capacitance of the cabling from cartridge pins to the preamp is low, below 50 pF. And if the spec that I found on lpgear.com is correct, inductance of my Audio Technica AT95E cartridge measured at 1 kHz is 400 mH, which puts my resonant frequency at 35.6 kHz, and suggests that I only need change the resistive load from 47K ohms to 89.4K ohms, and that ought to give me the most linear response that I'm going to get out of it. And given that the cost of a pair of 1/8th watt surface mount resistors is some fraction of a penny, it sounds like a pretty cost-effective mod to me!


Definitely worth a shot.

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 30 November, 2017, 03:05:06 PM
Because you have zero evidence and only vinylphile BS speculation. That's why.
It is a well-known cognitive bias. Even a paradigm in the study of such. Even more than confirmation bias.
But vinyl lovers sometimes even confess to it. And so you deny that it even exists, while yelling your usual textstrings. And cutting away everything you had not the intellectual ability to digest.

Next up: someone confesses to being affected by placebo.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 30 November, 2017, 04:22:36 PM
Today I felt a bit nostalgic and washed some 20 vinyl records that I had bought
Today I felt a bit nostalgic and washed some 20 vinyl records that I had bought at various thrift stores. [Also, I somewhat wanted to see what the vinyl mania is all about.] When I was a kid we listened to vinyl because there was nothing else and I remember not liking the experience. I just resigned myself to the popping and noise and other auditory imperfections of vinyl. But hey, maybe I missed something in my youth. Hipsters and audiophiles might be onto something after all.

So, I started listening to a recording of Rachmaninoff 2 by Entremont and could not finish because of all the popping and noise. (And I like Entremont and the way he does Rachmaninoff.) Then I listened to another LP -- Symphony No. 5 by Shostakovitch. There was less popping and noise and it was passable. I managed to listen to the whole piece.

But, still, after that experience I was perplexed. What is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017? It is so obviously inferior. (For those of you who know some physics, it should suffice to calculate the RMS voltage of thermal noise in the phono coil to see that vinyl is inferior to 16 it CD in the best case.) When I was a kid there was nothing else, so we kind of had to do it. But today's experience was a stark reminder of the inferiority of vinyl. Its only advantage might be visual -- it is nice to see the spinning disc. But that "novelty" wears off quickly, a bit like looking at the glow of tubes. Newly issued LPs might have less popping and noise than vintage ones, but they cost between $30 and $40. So, what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?

You might be interested to know that a good bit of ticks and pops are an artifact of the phono preamp which can exacerbate them if it has stability problems.


I'm quite sure it is not stability problems with my phono preamp. When I listen to a new record, the popping is greatly reduced.  So, this is nice controlled experiment.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 30 November, 2017, 04:32:24 PM

I'm quite sure it is not stability problems with my phono preamp. When I listen to a new record, the popping is greatly reduced.  So, this is nice controlled experiment.

"Greatly reduced"? My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any. When people listen to my system they often ask what format I'm playing as there are no ticks and pops. Of course I like to take care of my records but I don't clean them (other than a dust brush) and they are still free of ticks and pops. Those only show up if the LP is abused, unless of course the phono section has a problem in which case they are everywhere.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 30 November, 2017, 04:46:22 PM
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

Where did I speak about the foibles of digital audio?

And so you deny that it even exists, while yelling your usual textstrings. And cutting away everything you had not the intellectual ability to digest.
Dunning-Kruger is a heck of an effect  :D
Don't worry if you can't be cognizant, it makes it even funnier.  ;)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 30 November, 2017, 05:09:40 PM

I'm quite sure it is not stability problems with my phono preamp. When I listen to a new record, the popping is greatly reduced.  So, this is nice controlled experiment.

"Greatly reduced"? My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any. When people listen to my system they often ask what format I'm playing as there are no ticks and pops. Of course I like to take care of my records but I don't clean them (other than a dust brush) and they are still free of ticks and pops. Those only show up if the LP is abused, unless of course the phono section has a problem in which case they are everywhere.

Whatever dude. Why don’t you provide some proof with measurements? Your theory sounds like BS to me.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 30 November, 2017, 05:25:49 PM
My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any.
BS.
Brand spanking sealed new Norah Jones snap crackled and popped until run through cleaner.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 01 December, 2017, 02:32:00 AM
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

Where did I speak about the foibles of digital audio?

And so you deny that it even exists, while yelling your usual textstrings. And cutting away everything you had not the intellectual ability to digest.
Dunning-Kruger is a heck of an effect  :D
Don't worry if you can't be cognizant, it makes it even funnier.  ;)

I never quoted that, you liar.

Here is the posting that you quoted (and cut away most from; edit: in its entirity):

It is with some trepidation that I offer this opinion, but here goes anyway...

I think Funkstar might have something of a point when he talks about not browsing the net or skipping tracks when listening to vinyl. My hypothesis is that the effort involved in playing an LP has a psychological effect that encourages the listener to pay more attention so that the effort they've just expended doesn't get squandered.

This is a scientific forum, but psychology is still a science of some sort, isn't it? (Not proper science like maths or physics, of course  ;) )
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: The Seeker on 01 December, 2017, 05:50:49 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/U9EmE.gif)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 01 December, 2017, 08:15:08 AM
My that hole looks pretty deep!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 01 December, 2017, 09:37:04 AM
Here is the posting that you quoted (and cut away most from; edit: in its entirity):

It is with some trepidation that I offer this opinion, but here goes anyway...

I think Funkstar might have something of a point when he talks about not browsing the net or skipping tracks when listening to vinyl. My hypothesis is that the effort involved in playing an LP has a psychological effect that encourages the listener to pay more attention so that the effort they've just expended doesn't get squandered.

This is a scientific forum, but psychology is still a science of some sort, isn't it? (Not proper science like maths or physics, of course  ;) )
Aha, now we have it. In utter desperation, you are now basing your argument on Cliffs "opinion/Hypothesis", to support Funkstars nonsense.
IOW, as predicted by Dunning-Kruger, you have no evidence...on a non-believer/evidence based forum.
Well, you could always reach behind and pull some out. Let's see your peer reviewed psychology controlled experiments of vinylphiles, maybe hooked to MRI machines to show that special concentration/attentiveness to vinyl vs "digital".
Or you could just be full of baloney.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 01 December, 2017, 10:03:24 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/U9EmE.gif)
(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=011b35f18f32d8edd87a0f08eee8f6c3" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/64500/George-Clooney-Eating-Popcorn-at-Movies-64616.jpg)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 01 December, 2017, 03:00:34 PM

I'm quite sure it is not stability problems with my phono preamp. When I listen to a new record, the popping is greatly reduced.  So, this is nice controlled experiment.

"Greatly reduced"? My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any. When people listen to my system they often ask what format I'm playing as there are no ticks and pops. Of course I like to take care of my records but I don't clean them (other than a dust brush) and they are still free of ticks and pops. Those only show up if the LP is abused, unless of course the phono section has a problem in which case they are everywhere.

Whatever dude. Why don’t you provide some proof with measurements? Your theory sounds like BS to me.

I already provided a means for you to know if there is a problem. The real issue here is understanding how the pickup works. Seems to be in short supply here.

Quote
Brand spanking sealed new Norah Jones snap crackled and popped until run through cleaner.

Sure- did you test to see if your phono preamp is stable?

Again- if using a LOMC cartridge, if it requires loading to make it sound right (IOW if loading it acts as a tone control) then you have a stability problem. What happens if you put a 5 watt transmitter near the phono preamp while the covers are removed- can you upset it?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 01 December, 2017, 04:39:03 PM

I'm quite sure it is not stability problems with my phono preamp. When I listen to a new record, the popping is greatly reduced.  So, this is nice controlled experiment.

"Greatly reduced"? My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any. When people listen to my system they often ask what format I'm playing as there are no ticks and pops. Of course I like to take care of my records but I don't clean them (other than a dust brush) and they are still free of ticks and pops. Those only show up if the LP is abused, unless of course the phono section has a problem in which case they are everywhere.

Whatever dude. Why don’t you provide some proof with measurements? Your theory sounds like BS to me.

I already provided a means for you to know if there is a problem. The real issue here is understanding how the pickup works. Seems to be in short supply here.


You did not provide anything of substance, just some irrelevant narrative and a link to an amateur level PSPICE model -- on a site that sells "burn-in generators", no less. You are either kidding or you have no clue about electronics.

Do you even know what constitutes scientific evidence?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 01 December, 2017, 04:43:25 PM
Sure- did you test to see if your phono preamp is stable?
Let's try this again.
Brand new opened record direct to TT, snap crackle pop.
Said record cleaned, no snap crackle pop.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 01 December, 2017, 05:19:57 PM
Sure- did you test to see if your phono preamp is stable?
Let's try this again.
Brand new opened record direct to TT, snap crackle pop.
Said record cleaned, no snap crackle pop.


Right. And you missed the point, but that is understandable. What is at issue here is how many ticks and pops you would have heard if your preamp was stable and the LP was not cleaned.

The thing is, those ticks and pops are of course there on the surface. But quite often, they are too fast and low level to be heard if the phono preamp is stable. If it isn't, they set off the instabilities in the preamp and you're hearing ticks and pops that would otherwise be inaudible.

When you measure the phono circuit for distortion, this problem does not show up. But any designer that knows what a stopping resistor is also knows what the problem is and how to solve it.



Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 01 December, 2017, 05:34:37 PM
Right, washing the record made my preamp stable.
You can't fix stupid.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: PRTLA on 01 December, 2017, 05:40:37 PM
what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?

Hi everyone mi point of view as a Dj: the difference for the public about a dj mixing with cds or laptop vs vinyl consist on skills, if you are playing with cds or laptops the screen helps you a lot and on some cases you can even cheat the hole set, that is the reason why on the club culture a Dj playing on vinyl gets so respected and better pay, cause it’s your ears that really show your skills, total domination of humanity over  (analog) technology, rather than digital technology that makes you look cool but with no skills, but that it’s the point, just for listeners; becomes more subjective the like or not of the sound and the status that you feel buying a vinyl for your personal use. I see it like producers that want to work only with vintage consoles without using DAWs.

Thanks
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 01 December, 2017, 06:07:53 PM
If you really think I was saying
Right, washing the record made my preamp stable.

Then as you say
Quote
You can't fix stupid.




Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 01 December, 2017, 06:14:44 PM
If you really think I was saying
My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any.
Then as you say
You can't fix stupid.
Bingo!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 01 December, 2017, 06:20:24 PM
"Greatly reduced"? My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any. When people listen to my system they often ask what format I'm playing as there are no ticks and pops. Of course I like to take care of my records but I don't clean them (other than a dust brush) and they are still free of ticks and pops. Those only show up if the LP is abused, unless of course the phono section has a problem in which case they are everywhere.
(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=0bc080c74af3fd1cf5524b407fe64e11" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://rs3.pbsrc.com/albums/y96/LanaBelle/Gifs/Signs%20Signs%20Everywhere%20are%20Signs/bsmeter-smiley.gif?w=280&h=210&fit=crop)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 01 December, 2017, 09:09:05 PM
"Greatly reduced"? My point is that with a new LP you should not hear any. When people listen to my system they often ask what format I'm playing as there are no ticks and pops. Of course I like to take care of my records but I don't clean them (other than a dust brush) and they are still free of ticks and pops. Those only show up if the LP is abused, unless of course the phono section has a problem in which case they are everywhere.
(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=0bc080c74af3fd1cf5524b407fe64e11" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://rs3.pbsrc.com/albums/y96/LanaBelle/Gifs/Signs%20Signs%20Everywhere%20are%20Signs/bsmeter-smiley.gif?w=280&h=210&fit=crop)

Hey now, I know of one analogue, stylus-read systems that actually contain no audible artifacts, usually associated with Vinyl - well, two, but that's kinda stretching it.

Let's start with the less-known one: SIGSALY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIGSALY)
SIGSALY was wa WW2 era voice encryption system, which also pionered vocoders. The "key" were two identical phonographic records playing in tandem at both ends of the transmission line. These records were often made of materials, such as metals, or metalized surfaces.

The other one I know of - and I assume several other people know of, too, is the time speaking clock. They used records and vinyls which were pretty much impervious to static electricity, but wore out much faster - this is obviously back in the day, when the speaking clock system was implemented using record players, etc.

The record player had three styluses, one for hours, one for minutes and one for seconds, along with the sentence parts, to actually speak a full sentence containing the time, down to the next ten seconds. The marker blip was generated by the electronics. These styluses would wear out pretty quickly, and had to be replaced quite often. As I understand it, the disc was made such that the stylus would be worn out by the disc, and not the other way round.

This system has been later replaced by one that utilizes endless loops of tape.

Some weirder and more obscure systems used a magnetic disc with three styluses: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Zeitansage_Gestell3_mit_Magnetplatte_600_785.jpg

But yeah, there you go, record player systems that don't crackle, pop, etc.
Should be noted that in both examples, the discs and the styluses had to be replaced very frequently, it's sacrificing longevity for audio quality, etc.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 02 December, 2017, 01:45:03 PM
Aha, now we have it. In utter desperation, you are now basing your argument on Cliffs "opinion/Hypothesis", to support Funkstars nonsense.

Me?

Are you denying that it was you who posted #36 in this thread (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115012.msg948441.html#msg948441) which quoted cliveb (and not Funkstar)?
Are you denying that this very #36 was the posting I quoted you on (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115012.msg948448.html#msg948448)?
Are you denying that you made up a false quote (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115012.msg948563.html#msg948563) to make it look otherwise?


IOW, as predicted by Dunning-Kruger, you have no evidence
Are you denying that everyone who can read this thread has plenty of evidence that you are lying?

...on a non-believer/evidence based forum.
Are you lying because you make rational trade-offs between the detrimental effects of truthtelling vs. of lying to your standing on an "evidence based forum"?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 02 December, 2017, 03:21:21 PM
Me?

I guess most of us above a certain age, have put been through the rite: put on an LP and listen to the music while you open the gatefold cover and have a look at the artwork. If that makes you focus more on the product, it is likely not due to the audio part.
Right, you. Old timer. Parroting. Zero evidence. Dunning Kruger.

lying to your standing on an "evidence based forum"?

Nope, laughing...at you. The zero cognizance part. Funny.  ;)
Again, feel free to reach behind, pull out your evidence for this "focus" for vinyl vs digital.
No "hypothesis". Not "opinion". Not "Likely". Evidence. Peer reviewed, controlled viable evidence. Otherwise, you're full of baloney.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 02 December, 2017, 03:38:21 PM

For more on this phenomena, Jim Hagerman has an excellent tutorial on his site:

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html


One can tell something about another's expertise by observing what they accept to be true.

The Hagerman article has a serious flaw in its model of a cartridge. It does not include the mechanical side of the cartridge which is prone to have non-flat response all by itself. 

The non-flat response comes from the presence of at least two additional intercoupled mass-spring-damper subsystems. One is formed by the mass of the stylus tip and the compliance of the LP itself, and the other is formed by the flexibility of the cantalever and the mass of the generator part of the cartridge - the coil for MC and the magnet or reluctor for a  MM or VR cartridges.

Some cartridges have an additional mass-spring damper system that is a classic vibration absorber - a weight on the end of a small springy rod that is usually buried inside the cantilever.

This becomes especially important when the mechanical side of the cartridge is tuned to compensate for its own resonances or the resonances of the electrical side.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 02 December, 2017, 07:43:03 PM
Me?

I guess most of us above a certain age, have put been through the rite: put on an LP and listen to the music while you open the gatefold cover and have a look at the artwork. If that makes you focus more on the product, it is likely not due to the audio part.
Again, everyone who can click a snapback can check the true contents of the posting.  (And in case it should expire, I have archived the entire thread.)

I wonder, when was the last time I saw a manufacturer of sound reproduction gear promote themselves with such dishonesty.
What is the brand you are representing, ajinfla? Please say it is not Meridian.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: kode54 on 02 December, 2017, 07:46:16 PM
Be thankful people here click the quote post button and use it. I know someone who runs their own phpBB forum, and they manually quote posts using angle braces, like they're typing out an email. Mainly because they break up the quotes and reply to each individual sentence, and it's apparently not worth the effort to copy and paste the open quote tag for the quote block for each segment of original text.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 02 December, 2017, 11:02:22 PM
I don't quite agree. I love pulling a record from it's sleeve and sitting down to have a listen to it. It works for me in away that no digital format ever has (although I can have a similar experience with a CD). I listen to it. I don't browse the internet while it's playing, I'm not skipping tracks or playing a game.

I think Funkstar might have something of a point when he talks about not browsing the net or skipping tracks when listening to vinyl. My hypothesis is that the effort involved in playing an LP has a psychological effect that encourages the listener to pay more attention so that the effort they've just expended doesn't get squandered.

It is a well-known cognitive bias. Even a paradigm in the study of such. Even more than confirmation bias.
But vinyl lovers sometimes even confess to it.
(https://assets.change.org/photos/5/pd/re/MNpDrelNyvAPStn-400x400-noPad.jpg?1509326342)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 03 December, 2017, 12:25:35 AM
He didn't post that picture and has the incriminating shapshot to prove it, Mr. Pantsonfire.

...being short even a modicum of evidence to support his psychology daydream theories not withstanding.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: old tech on 03 December, 2017, 03:15:31 AM
There is still reason to have vinyl (or at least recordings digitised from a vinyl record).  Some of the more obscure music from days gone is only available on vinyl and sometimes certain albums can subjectively sound better on vinyl.

The subjectivity part is quite important as not everyone would agree whether one version sounds better than another.  If the vinyl came from a different master, it is likely to have different EQ and compression applied which will change the sound, which may sound better to some but not to others.  I agree that most vinyl over past 30 years was likely made from the same CD master, but sometimes to my ears, if the digital mastering was brickwalled and loud the lower resolution vinyl seems to take the edge off it.  If both are mastered well then to my ears the CD always comes out ahead, particularly around clarity, separation of instruments and sound articulation in the lower and upper frequencies.

As some have pointed out, the ritual involved in playing a record can be more involving (using more of our senses) and if you like that sort of thing, the listener can perceive vinyl to sound better, even though it doesn't on any objective basis.  It can also work in the opposite direction if, like me, you find the record playing ritual a pita.  I actually find it hard to relax listening to a record being played as it is always in the back of mind having to get up to change sides or to move the stylus when it gets to the inevitable crappy track.  That is why I have digitised my records, it allows a more convenient and stress free listening experience.

The other thing I noticed is that most people that subjectively perceive vinyl to sound better are those over 60 years of age.  It kind of makes sense as it is the sound and procedure they grew up with.  One example is the old 50s tube radio I grew up with.  I still have it in my study and sometimes play in in the background.  When a song is played from 60s/70s that I got to know on that radio as a child, it takes me back to that time, a pleasant connection that I don't get when playing those same songs in high fidelity.

Lastly, at 60 years of age, your ears are in decline as far as hearing detail over masking and is less sensitive to noise and higher frequencies.  Many of the fidelity advantages of digital probably cannot be appreciated as it would with a younger set of ears.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: krabapple on 03 December, 2017, 05:32:11 AM
I grew up with vinyl, put together a decent enough playback rig, but still thanked the stars when CD appeared, and have never had the desire to go back.  I'm not yet 60 but not far from it.

Also, much of the current renaissance of vinyl has been driven by hipster (i.e., youth) faddism for retro technology. 



Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 03 December, 2017, 07:04:53 AM
There is still reason to have vinyl (or at least recordings digitised from a vinyl record).  Some of the more obscure music from days gone is only available on vinyl and sometimes certain albums can subjectively sound better on vinyl.
Yep, only reason I have a TT.

However, I've heard a >3 vinylphiles rumor that vinyl ritualism creates a mesmerizing laser like focus, unlike the automatic induced ADD of digital.
I then check into this rumor myself, as I don't just accept other's. So I have verified using the little Johnny method (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,108668.msg897895.html#msg897895) to my own satisfaction, that parroted rumors can be are correct.
It is a now well-known, established cognitive bias. Even a paradigm in the study of such. Psychology fact, not fiction.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 03 December, 2017, 07:17:13 AM
[another fake]

Y'know, I might have chosen the wrong paradigm. I was thinking of the IKEA effect (google it - I am inside the paywall, so the DOI won't help you get access), but maybe the classic Festinger and Carlsmith forced compliance study is more relevant to this thread.
Therein, volunteers were asked to do some boring task and then lie to the next person about how interesting it is, for a compensation randomized to either $1 or $20.  As it turns out, the $1 group did perceive the task as more rewarding.
An interpretation would be that those who have to do the task of flipping vinyl discs all the time for basically nothing (the rest of us get at least the same from pushing a button), need to deceive themselves into an imaginary reward - which is not necessary for those who receive a monetary payoff for lying, like the dishonest hifi salesman.

And in real-life, people can even self-select into the dishonest salesman profession if they find lying rewarding in itself. Again, ajinfla: which company are you trying to market?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 03 December, 2017, 09:04:42 AM
ajinfla: which company are you trying to market?
Its called vinyl psychology for parrots
 (https://www.google.com/search?q=parroting&oq=parroting&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j0l3.4100j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: dneern on 03 December, 2017, 01:09:47 PM
If you don't have the ability to just sit down and pay attention to a piece of music, and appreciate it, regardless of the format, then it's not about you. You're not the audience. You're ancillary, but not important. Nobody who makes music is thinking about you and what you like when they're making their art.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 03 December, 2017, 01:52:57 PM
You're not buying vinylphile hypotheses about vinyl is known for creating deep concentration, while digital is well established for causing Attention Deficit Disorder (http://www.addadult.com/getting-help/screening-checklist/) ?

Well how's this for proof!
(https://e.snmc.io/lk/l/w/f20fa5c77859aa3436b13bed961d2d59/4359077.jpg)

Btw, do you know I sell loudspeakers? It's very relevant here.
Oink.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 03 December, 2017, 03:28:46 PM
Whoever told you that trolling actually improves your standing, was probably right.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 03 December, 2017, 03:31:21 PM
yelling your usual textstrings. And cutting away everything you had not the intellectual ability to digest.

you liar

I wonder, when was the last time I saw a manufacturer of sound reproduction gear promote themselves with such dishonesty.
What is the brand you are representing, ajinfla? Please say it is not Meridian.

...and you're doing what, exactly?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Porcus on 03 December, 2017, 03:52:58 PM
Of course I know I am taking the bait. I have seen flamewars before, and I am the Archivist of this ménagerie (https://www.politicsforum.org/flame-warriors/).
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 03 December, 2017, 03:58:20 PM
You're doing more than just that, and the rest of us thank you for it.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: krabapple on 03 December, 2017, 05:26:12 PM
 Your HA (i.e. 'objectivist') bona fides are all well documented here, guys.   So why the triangular firing squad?  Slow week?  ::)

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 03 December, 2017, 05:53:41 PM
Your HA (i.e. 'objectivist') bona fides are all well documented here, guys.
Certainly better documented than the posterior-derived psychological theories about ADD and various music delivery methods.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 04 December, 2017, 10:24:12 AM
As a consolation of sorts, this thread has at least managed to become some obscure placebophile community's pet peeve (https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1158857.html) - misquotations, "mine-is-bigger-than-yours"* hissy fits and all: :D

"Once again made the mistake of looking at Hydrogen Audio forums" (https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1158857.html)

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/religion-pagans-pagan_gathering-hissy_fits-pagan_beliefs-beliefs-kmhn221_low.jpg)


*
Quote
I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.

If only Freud and Jung were alive!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Wombat on 04 December, 2017, 10:30:57 AM
The OP simply sucessfully started what is so easy with the hydrogen crowd. Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 04 December, 2017, 10:56:27 AM
As a consolation of sorts, this thread has at least managed to become some obscure placebophile community's pet peeve (https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1158857.html) - misquotations, "mine-is-bigger-than-yours"* hissy fits and all: :D

"Once again made the mistake of looking at Hydrogen Audio forums" (https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1158857.html)

(https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cartoonstock.com/religion-pagans-pagan_gathering-hissy_fits-pagan_beliefs-beliefs-kmhn221_low.jpg)


*
Quote
I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.

If only Freud and Jung were alive!


Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say? Their views are irrelevant as is their forum.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 04 December, 2017, 11:11:10 AM
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say?
Isn't your "interesting" quoted above already reason enough?

Mine? Make no mistake: it's just for kicks!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 04 December, 2017, 11:50:41 AM
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say? Their views are irrelevant as is their forum.
Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much. That was a hilarious link, thanks to includemeout.
Among the Dunning-Kruger forums, the very aptly named Asylum is perhaps the most hysterical.
IIRC, our old friend makeup man Scotty used to post here. Haven't seen him in a while, much to my dismay. His abilities to make up stuff is unmatched.  ;)
Ever wonder what a Dunning-Krugers system looks like? Check this out https://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3229.html (https://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/3229.html)
You really need to attend some audio jewelry DK events and meet some of these deaf delusional old freaks, or get to hear their horrible systems. I have, literally hundreds. It's worth it!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 04 December, 2017, 12:15:37 PM
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say?
Isn't your "interesting" quoted above already reason enough?

Mine? Make no mistake: it's just for kicks!

I'm no being argumentative here and I thank you for the link. It is interesting to see how those dudes think.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 04 December, 2017, 12:28:06 PM
Interesting, but why waste time to read what those dudes have to say?
Isn't your "interesting" quoted above already reason enough?

Mine? Make no mistake: it's just for kicks!

At first I found them annoying, but now I think it actually is fun to read.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 04 December, 2017, 02:24:06 PM
...and our genius guru, Ralph:
https://cgi.audioasylum.com/cgi/mail.mpl?user_ID=12232
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: krabapple on 04 December, 2017, 02:48:55 PM
...and our genius guru, Ralph:
https://cgi.audioasylum.com/cgi/mail.mpl?user_ID=12232


oh, Ralph, you're hopeless

(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=d49507c66679577ad1a3984b702fdaa6" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/Photos/S-30-shadow.png)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 04 December, 2017, 03:59:57 PM
When he says, on that other thread, something in the lines of "I visit HA once in a blue moon" just to make clear he only does it for fun, that must be the mother of all understatements!

The guy practically keeps HA on his second monitor! Talk about having a bee in one's bonnet!

Edit: oops! that was the other guy! My bad!
Anyway, Ralph is such a hypocrite coming in here and then posting over there what I quoted above, regarding our supposed "sub-$100 gear"!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 04 December, 2017, 04:11:07 PM
Typical double-standards. Shame on you, dude! @Atmasphere 
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 04 December, 2017, 05:04:16 PM
@includemeout  what's the double standard?

Quote
coming in here and then posting over there what I quoted above, regarding our supposed "sub-$100 gear"!
You misquoted me. Here is the exact quote
Quote
I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.


BTW the S-30 (posted by krabapple, thanks) has full power bandwidth from 2Hz-100KHz open loop with about 0.5% THD and IMD about 0.05%; not bad for open loop (the output of the amp is direct-coupled).  It lacks the 2nd order harmonic that is common with tube amps as the circuit is fully differential and balanced from input to output (even ordered harmonics canceled at each stage, not just the output) and supports AES file 48 (as do our balanced preamps).

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 04 December, 2017, 06:02:54 PM
Ah, you're that Atma-sphere.
Luckily I'm not one who thinks tubes are "bad".
But the cartridge comment was pretty stupid. AA elitist ignorant-dumb.

BTW the S-30 (posted by krabapple, thanks) has full power bandwidth from 2Hz-100KHz open loop with about 0.5% THD and IMD about 0.05%;
That's fine, whats the output impedance look like?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: old tech on 04 December, 2017, 06:29:09 PM
@includemeout  what's the double standard?

Quote
coming in here and then posting over there what I quoted above, regarding our supposed "sub-$100 gear"!
You misquoted me. Here is the exact quote
Quote
I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.


BTW the S-30 (posted by krabapple, thanks) has full power bandwidth from 2Hz-100KHz open loop with about 0.5% THD and IMD about 0.05%; not bad for open loop (the output of the amp is direct-coupled).  It lacks the 2nd order harmonic that is common with tube amps as the circuit is fully differential and balanced from input to output (even ordered harmonics canceled at each stage, not just the output) and supports AES file 48 (as do our balanced preamps).
How linear is the 2hz to 100khz response?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 04 December, 2017, 06:54:44 PM
Ah, you're that Atma-sphere.
Luckily I'm not one who thinks tubes are "bad".
But the cartridge comment was pretty stupid. AA elitist ignorant-dumb.
I discovered that preamp stability played a role in ticks and pops about 30 years ago. I was dumbfounded but it was easy enough to demonstrate. If that is what you are referring to as 'AA elitist ignorant-dumb' then I disagree. The cost of the phono section has nothing to do with it (so there goes the elitist bit) and the dumb part seems to be getting people to understand how this phenomena occurs. I'm not the only one who has sorted this out by any means- Nelson Pass' phono sections are quite stable and the same phenomena of less ticks and pops is audible in his gear as well.

If you look at the schematic of most any Japanese phono section, you will see easily why many of them are unstable. For starters they lack any sort of stopping resistors, which are a mitigating factor in circuit stability.

BTW the S-30 (posted by krabapple, thanks) has full power bandwidth from 2Hz-100KHz open loop with about 0.5% THD and IMD about 0.05%;
Quote
That's fine, whats the output impedance look like?
You may or may not know this in already, but OTLs in general are known for a high output impedance and this being one of the smaller OTLs made, is pretty high. So speaker selection is critical, but its pretty happy on a 16 ohm load generally speaking. Its output impedance is about 8 ohms. The output impedance curve looks just like the frequency response curve- no timing constants in the output to mess things up.

If lower impedance speakers are to be used with this model we frequently advise the use of an outboard autoformer that converts from 16 ohms down to 2,3 or 4 ohms. Because of its low turns ratio, it actually has wider bandwidth than the amp.

[/quote]
Quote
How linear is the 2hz to 100khz response?

If you mean, is it flat across that band, it is; well within 1/2db, -3 db at the specified limits. The 2 Hz cutoff is defined by a coupling cap between the voltage amp and direct-coupled driver (squarewave tilt is unmeasurable at 20Hz); in our larger amps we cut it off at 1Hz. The upper limit is defined by the bandwidth of the voltage amp; we can run it higher easily but in practice this seems to be a good limit.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 04 December, 2017, 07:51:29 PM
@includemeout  what's the double standard?

Quote
coming in here and then posting over there what I quoted above, regarding our supposed "sub-$100 gear"!
You misquoted me. Here is the exact quote
Quote
I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.
Or, as I'd innitially quoted on the afore-mentioned, earlier (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115012.msg948745.html#msg948745) reply:

Quote
I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.
As @ajinfla has already said, that was pretty stupid - not to mention arrogant too.

As for the double standard, all this pretending you were engaging into serious debate here just to dutifuly report to your comrades over there makes it quite obvious what I meant, doesn't it?

Anyway, the internet is notoriously free, for you to do as you please - whatever rocks your boat,  man!

But any unbiased person reading this can tell you've been somewhat of a jerk by doing that.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: old tech on 04 December, 2017, 07:58:26 PM
Quote
How linear is the 2hz to 100khz response?
Quote
If you mean, is it flat across that band, it is; well within 1/2db, -3 db at the specified limits. The 2 Hz cutoff is defined by a coupling cap between the voltage amp and direct-coupled driver (squarewave tilt is unmeasurable at 20Hz); in our larger amps we cut it off at 1Hz. The upper limit is defined by the bandwidth of the voltage amp; we can run it higher easily but in practice this seems to be a good limit.

Specs seem very good.  Well designed tube amps can be very bit as transparent as well designed solid state amps but the question is more around virtue.  The tube amp will cost a lot more, is more inefficient and higher maintenance.  Not that this really matters as, in my experience, most audiophiles that a drawn to tube amps are seeking more of a euphonic colour rather than transparency and most high end tube amps cater to that crowd with their "signature sound" amps that depart from the objective of true high fidelity.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 04 December, 2017, 09:06:38 PM
Ah, you're that Atma-sphere.
Luckily I'm not one who thinks tubes are "bad".
But the cartridge comment was pretty stupid. AA elitist ignorant-dumb.
I discovered that preamp stability played a role in ticks and pops about 30 years ago.
Great, but that was still a really stupid comment about $100 cartridges on the Dunning-Kruger site.
Plus cleaning the snap, crackle, popping brand new record, had not a damn thing to do with preamps.

You may or may not know this in already, but OTLs in general are known for a high output impedance and this being one of the smaller OTLs made, is pretty high.
Like the damn rent?
Ok, so it's a special effects processor posing as an "amp". It's going to have a "sound" based on the impedance curve of the speaker system, especially multi-ways!
Nothing wrong with that if it floats yer boat in a very audiophile sort of way.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 05 December, 2017, 12:49:23 PM
Hmm, I wasn't aware of Audio Asylum till just now.

Pretty long time since I've seen so much butthurt about being lovers of something other people shun. Religion comes to mind...

It's pretty clear, though, that they struggle having a conversation that goes over their heads when presented with something that isn't a logical fallacy.

Here's a pretty good example:
Quote
OK, then show me your measurements of musicality and involvement, or the lack there of!
Ref.: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1159159.html

The original poster this person responds to, provided a pretty good explanation of his argument:
Quote
Measurements are objective and have the same meaning to everyone. Musicality and involvement are subjective and have different meanings to different people. All you have to do is find a component that sounds musical and involving to you and measure it. Then, any other component with the same exact measurements of distortion, frequency response, and phase response will sound musical and involving to you.

After all, electronic components simply reproduce an electrical waveform from a record or CD. These waveforms are easily measured. Therefore, when you find two different components that produce the same exact electrical waveforms from a record or CD, they will sound exactly the same.

The human ear is far less sensitive than electronic measurement equipment. Therefore, we can measure all sorts of distortion and other things that no human can hear. Everyone knows this. If you think you can hear frequencies that cannot be measured you're delusional. Oscilloscopes can easily measure frequencies in the megahertz region where no human ear can detect them. Spectrum analyzers can measure harmonic distortion that no human ear can hear.

I don't know why you think that musicality and involvement cannot be measured. If you can identify it, it can be measured.
Ref.: https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/115/1159201.html

There are no replies to this, pretty telling that there is simply no riposte to that.

The opening post, claims HA is in its own little bubble. While that is pretty much like saying that the comment section of each YouTube video is its own bubble, I find the statement comically ironic. I know of only a handful communities so en-bubbled as them.

Some of them claim discussions here tend to become overly vitriolic, and I think there's truth to that. Correct argumentation is one thing, but being a dick about it - when the other person is quite clueless - is also not helpful at all. If someone thinks this is a waste of time, then I'd argue it's better not to answer at all.

They seem to misunderstand quite a bit of the technology discussed here, though. It seems they're unaware, that "MP3" is not a catch-all term for lossy encoding. In one instance they talk about hiss on LPs, and discuss bit-depth. It seems they don't quite understand, that bit-depth of a sample is what defines noise on digital encoding. They seem to regularly confuse sampling rate to bit-depth, and I've read at least one account someone claiming that "converting" a signal from the time domain into the frequency domain is "lossy", which just concept-wise makes no sense.

People like Monty have made introductions which I highly recommend: https://xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml

I've come across several discussions where it essentially boils down to name-calling and fingerpointing, I'd love to see less of that.
Audio Asylum seems to be full of that, and I don't see why we should let ourselves down to that level. Either be respectful of the other, or don't answer, but fueling a fire makes no sense.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 05 December, 2017, 01:51:13 PM
I've come across several discussions where it essentially boils down to name-calling and fingerpointing, I'd love to see less of that.
Audio Asylum seems to be full of that, and I don't see why we should let ourselves down to that level. Either be respectful of the other, or don't answer, but fueling a fire makes no sense.
Totally agree.

Most long time HA members should be pretty familiar with such things right? People in Audio Asylum or similar websites should also understand the culture of HA clearly. I myself learned nothing new in this thread and there is no need to going back and forth with people in other forums in this way.

Just a little bit earlier:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114230.0.html
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114203.0.html

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 05 December, 2017, 02:15:09 PM
People in Audio Asylum or similar websites should also understand the culture of HA clearly.
No they shouldn't. They can't. Dunning-Krugers' study points to why.
Or in more laymans term, you can't fix stupid.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 05 December, 2017, 02:38:14 PM
Quote
As @ajinfla has already said, that was pretty stupid - not to mention arrogant too.

As for the double standard, all this pretending you were engaging into serious debate here just to dutifuly report to your comrades over there makes it quite obvious what I meant, doesn't it?

Anyway, the internet is notoriously free, for you to do as you please - whatever rocks your boat,  man!

But any unbiased person reading this can tell you've been somewhat of a jerk by doing that.

You are engaging in a lot of assumptions. My quote so far seems un-refuted; I did not say all, but I am am quite convinced that many or most on this otherwise august forum use systems that those in my industry refer to as 'lofi' or 'midfi'. Are you able to prove me wrong?

Also if you look at my posts here and correlate them to my posts over there, you will not find much correlation. My motivation for posting over here is to sort out if it is possible to get people who have otherwise rejected phono technology to understand how it works and why they may not have heard it working properly. I encounter a lot of resistance- and a serious amount of personal attacks and trolling, which is the nom de plume for which this site is known. So in a way I am walking in the lion's den but as you point out, it is the internet. So I disagree with your assessments; as far as I can tell they are based on the idea that you know what is in my head, which you don't. You will also notice that I avoid the usual name-calling such as you have employed, unless pushed really hard.

Quote
Great, but that was still a really stupid comment about $100 cartridges on the Dunning-Kruger site.
Plus cleaning the snap, crackle, popping brand new record, had not a damn thing to do with preamps.

I disagree. I've been on this site for a while and it is very specification/measurement based. Since most competent gear has good specs (Kenwood car stereo and top end Pass Labs amps do not have very different specs as an example) naturally its human nature to pay less if you don't have to. Was that a faulty assumption on my part?

Further, you seem to have consistently missed my point regarding preamps, your cleaning of your LP, and surface noise. I've made it twice now and you're still on about it- are you missing my point with intention?? It certainly appears so.

Quote
Ok, so it's a special effects processor posing as an "amp". It's going to have a "sound" based on the impedance curve of the speaker system, especially multi-ways!
Nothing wrong with that if it floats yer boat in a very audiophile sort of way.

Actually the amp is capable of being quite neutral with no 'sound' of its own at all. Like any high performance equipment, it has to be used correctly. Its also helpful to understand why it exists (which is not to act as a special effects processor). I'm happy to engage in that discussion, but it would appear to be a topic for another thread. Alternatively, we could discuss it on PM. Or derail this thread if you prefer. But as a hint, there is more to it than simple reaction to the impedance curve of the speaker. First off, no speaker is flat, second, human perception of distortion exists with tipping points in the brain wherein tonality created by distortion can take precedence over actual FR errors. Finally not all speakers are designed around the expectation that the amplifier be a perfect voltage source; despite that the expectation is that the speakers will nevertheless be neutral.

If you were to put in in a nutshell, the current SET fad (which started about 1990; not sure if 'fad' is the right word) requires that speakers not expect the amp to be a perfect voltage source (instead, they are expected to be a 'power source' as the speaker will be power driven rather than voltage driven); this amplifier is intended to go after SETs on their own turf as it is less expensive, much wider bandwidth, far more powerful, far less distortion at any power level and its quiet enough to be used on high efficiency (+100db) loudspeakers. BTW, SETs have unmeasurable distortion at low power levels and that is one reason why they are around. So the S-30 beats them up on any speaker they can drive. And because it has more power it can drive speakers that most SETs simply cannot. Once you understand those facts the amp makes more sense.

Is it bad to be an audiophile? Your use of the word seems to suggest that.

Quote
Or in more laymans term, you can't fix stupid

You can fix ignorance, stupid is forever. Not everyone over there is ignorant, nor stupid; both are a problem in all aspects of humanity. You seem to be engaging in a bit of Dunning-Kruger yourself.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Wombat on 05 December, 2017, 03:30:18 PM
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114377.msg943190.html#msg943190
Still waiting.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 05 December, 2017, 03:40:58 PM
Quote
Still waiting.

I had forgotten about that.

What sort of format does the audio file need to be? How do you ascertain its not been tampered with? Will an audio file from my phone do the job? Otherwise I have to bring equipment from the studio which will be a pain.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Wombat on 05 December, 2017, 03:50:49 PM
Something similar silent as the sample guruboolez posted.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 05 December, 2017, 03:55:09 PM
Something similar silent as the sample guruboolez posted.

How long should it be before my point is made?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 05 December, 2017, 04:19:07 PM
You are engaging in a lot of assumptions. [...] Are you able to prove me wrong?
Talk abou assumptions!  Since yours was obviously the first one, I guess I don't have to tell you the burden of proof actually lays the other way around here, do I?

Quote
My quote so far seems un-refuted;
Oh! Pleaaa-se! As if anyone in full possession of their mental faculties (either on HA or not) could actually give a rat's arse at refuting what, fallacy!

Just so you understand it once and for all and make no more strawman argument out of it: my sheer indignation (also shared by at least another member) is not with us feeling kinda hurt at anyone attacking us with that "mine-is-bigger-than-yours", freudian, penile BS that may stick to you guys in your "industry" - differences between member signatures over and most audiophool fora can obviously attest this last statement. We are obviously not that petty to care about that.

Can't you see (or stop pretendind you cannot) it's down to the way you behaved? I, for myself, was challenging your ethics, not your ad hominem, childish claims.

Quote
I did not say all, but I am am quite convinced that many or most on this otherwise august forum use systems that those in my industry refer to as 'lofi' or 'midfi'.

Quote
Quote
I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.
So, at first you were "certain", then you used the "any" pronoun, so as there can be absolutely no doubt you know all HA members' gears. Right...
Why still insisting upon slyly/desperately trying to play it all down?

We may not concur with you cult's beliefs, but you cannot be that naive to believe we're gonna fall for that, can you?

Just concede that, on saying that, you came across as a cocky gearhead - simples. Then you can move on to either reporting back to HQ - for some well deserved decoration - or carry on trying to defend your cult's beliefs as if this forum were a soapbox of sorts for you to try to convert anyone over here. ::)

Finally, at least I can safely say "from previous experience that"  ;) such misuse of this community won't get you too far over here:

No, you're probably not going to be banned (unlike the de facto behaviour towards some of our members who happen to venture into you lot wonderland): you'll either tire yourself or come to terms with the fact that you'll be just another dog barking at the proverbial tree.

Oh! Need the proof for such claim!?

Easy: use the search box up yonder and check out how many placebophiles like yourself have already left this community for good along this decade and a half (bar the occasional Analog Scott lurking in here like a real perve but claiming it is just "once in a blue moon - right...).
A community which couldn't care less about whichever "nom de plume" you lot choose to call it, as we, unwillingly (but usually proudly) end up being you old ladies' favourite talk of the town anyway.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 05 December, 2017, 04:51:23 PM
You are engaging in a lot of assumptions. My quote so far seems un-refuted; I did not say all, but I am am quite convinced that many or most on this otherwise august forum use systems that those in my industry refer to as 'lofi' or 'midfi'. Are you able to prove me wrong?

Quote
Posted by Ralph (M) on November 30, 2017 at 10:06:18
In Reply to: Once again made the mistake of looking at Hydrogen Audio forums posted by Analog Scott on November 28, 2017 at 08:37:14:

Cripes! 3 pages of obnoxious drivel.

I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.
Ralph, this is pure Dunning-Kruger. You're not posting on the audiomoron site here, everyone can see through your BS excuses.
When you posted that "drivel" on AA, you had no idea it would be picked up and exposed here on HA. You were catering to the beliefs of the elitist prick imbeciles who believe every word you parroted verbatim. "Lofi". You're a poor liar too, regarding whether "any" here have > $100 cartridges, because you demanded in another thread that the poster list their TT setup, including cartridge (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114377.msg943128.html#msg943128). Ralph, that's called, you, BUSTED.

Further, you seem to have consistently missed my point regarding preamps, your cleaning of your LP, and surface noise.
I didn't miss anything. You OTOH, missed logic and what a red herring is. Your nonsense about preamps is a diversion from the fact that heroic efforts are needed to keep a lid on surface noise of your inferior medium...new record or not.

Actually the amp is capable of being quite neutral with no 'sound' of its own at all.
Right, "capable of", but with any speaker with a non near flat impedance (the vast majority), the "sound" will be the speaker + amp EQ FR vs simply the speaker, as driven with a "amplifier". It's a special effects processor like any high output impedance "amp".

You can fix ignorance, stupid is forever. Not everyone over there is ignorant, nor stupid; both are a problem in all aspects of humanity.
The majority are, with rare exception and those are outliers. The entire point of AA is for Dunning-Krugers to congregate in an imbecile echo chamber, with strict rules about barring any rational discussion, blind tests, etc.
I know, I was there for years.
I've also heard countless of your ilks systems. You can't possibly understand how funny this all is. ;)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 06 December, 2017, 07:39:39 AM
what is the frigging point of vinyl in 2017?

Nostalgia, mostly. There is also a certain factor of physicality to the format, you can see the grooves, see the pickup moving across the record, reproducing the music. The big bold cover art also plays a big part.

Was looking at the RIAA sales stats the other day and saw data that suggested that about 4% of the dollars the recorded music folks sell is coming from LPs:  http://www.riaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/RIAA-2016-Year-End-News-Notes.pdf  If you factor in the unit volumes, you see that LPs are a means for collecting about twice the money for the same music.



Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 06 December, 2017, 07:48:41 AM
Quote
Still waiting.

I had forgotten about that.


I hadn't. It counted negatively towards your credibility.  Big claims, no show!

Quote
What sort of format does the audio file need to be? How do you ascertain its not been tampered with? Will an audio file from my phone do the job? Otherwise I have to bring equipment from the studio which will be a pain.

FLAC for the best results, MP3 if you are willing to accept the known compromises.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 06 December, 2017, 02:45:55 PM
Quote
Still waiting.

I had forgotten about that.


I hadn't. It counted negatively towards your credibility.  Big claims, no show!

Quote
What sort of format does the audio file need to be? How do you ascertain its not been tampered with? Will an audio file from my phone do the job? Otherwise I have to bring equipment from the studio which will be a pain.

FLAC for the best results, MP3 if you are willing to accept the known compromises.

I agree- so again, how long- an entire LP side? MP3 is fine- its just about showing an absence of ticks and pops, right? The LP I was talking about (and is only one of many examples) is a 1960 pressing of an Angel recording of the Four Seasons. My proposal is to put up a Zoom recorder and play the whole thing- but where will the sound file be hosted- on this site?
Quote
Your nonsense about preamps is a diversion from the fact that heroic efforts are needed to keep a lid on surface noise of your inferior medium...new record or not.

Owning the preamp does not take a lot of effort... I dust the LP surface with a dust brush before I play it, I don't handle the LP surface and store them upright. Not particularly heroic...

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 06 December, 2017, 05:10:20 PM
I dust the LP surface with a dust brush before I play it, I don't handle the LP surface and store them upright. Not particularly heroic...
So you claim. Yes, the ritualism seems apt here. The fact is your inferior format features some to a lot of surface noise, new or old vinyl. It absolutely requires fastidious means to keep surface as clean as possible.
For old timers with poor HF hearing and built up tolerance for noises that don't exist in live unamplified music, especially classical, this may be fine.
For others with much higher demands for fidelity to original soundfields, not so much
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 06 December, 2017, 05:58:07 PM
^^ Classic Dunning-Kruger
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 06 December, 2017, 06:17:11 PM

Quote
In Reply to: RE: Why do you waste your time posting there? posted by John Elison on December 4, 2017 at 22:42:08:

The human ear is far less sensitive than electronic measurement equipment. Therefore, we can measure all sorts of distortion and other things that no human can hear. Everyone knows this. If you think you can hear frequencies that cannot be measured you're delusional.

This is a common myth. IOW, the statement above is false, although if the opening statement were to read something like 'The human ear is **usually** far less sensitive...' it would be more accurate.

We can easily hear some forms of distortion, in particular higher ordered harmonics. The reason for this is that the ear uses higher ordered harmonics on order to sense sound pressure. We have about a 140 db range (although the upper limits will cause damage as you know).

GE proved this back in the 1960s but the implications have been largely ignored to this day. In fact we've had inklings regarding our sensitivity to higher ordered harmonics going back to the 1930s (see Radiotron Designer's Handbook 2nd edition).

The ear converts most forms of distortion to tonality. Most engineers know that the 2nd harmonic of tubes contributes to their 'warmth' or 'richness'. Trace amounts (that can be difficult to measure) of higher ordered harmonics are what make solid state amps sound bright and contributes to harshness.

It is the presence of higher ordered harmonic content in SETs that causes them to sound 'dynamic'. Its my supposition and experience that when audiophiles are using the word 'dynamics' that they are usually talking about distortion and that the two terms can be exchanged without changing the meaning of the conversation. That might sound cynical to some but that's my experience.

we can hear that same distortion, right into the noise floor where instruments have trouble measuring it.

We don't hear it as distortion though. Many people think that's what is supposed to happen, but the ear/brain system converts distortion into tonality.

So the higher ordered harmonics can be in trace amounts that are difficult if not impossible to measure, but we will hear that in the amplifier as brightness and hardness. Its what fuels the tube/transistor debate...

^^ Classic Dunning-Kruger
Agreed
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 06 December, 2017, 06:37:38 PM

Quote
Posted by Ralph (M) on November 30, 2017 at 10:06:18
In Reply to: Once again made the mistake of looking at Hydrogen Audio forums posted by Analog Scott on November 28, 2017 at 08:37:14:

Cripes! 3 pages of obnoxious drivel.

I am certain from previous experience that posters there use lofi gear. I'd be surprised if any of them have a cartridge that retails for over $100.00.

Quote
In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is.
Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

I attended the University of Minnesota and did the lower division of the EE course before changing my program to something called University Without Walls

^^ Classic Dunning-Kruger
Yes Ralph, we get it
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: jjb70 on 07 December, 2017, 01:29:18 AM
I still have some records even though I have not owned or had access to a record player for probably 30 years when I still lived at my parents house. The reason I kept a few is the cover art. I think vinyl is an inferior music format and don't miss listening to vinyl at all but I do miss the cover art.
If people like vinyl then that is their choice and every one is entitled to their own opinions but there is a world of difference between just liking something and trying to claim it is better in performance terms. A lot of it seems to stem from resentment at the commoditising and accessibility of music in the digital era which has destroyed much of the mystique carefully constructed by high end hifi manufacturers (often more high price than high performance) and magazines.  Sadly the same people seem to be pretty good at creating new mystiques around digital sound to try and persuade us that we need to spend $$$$$$$$$$$$$'s on gear.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: cliveb on 07 December, 2017, 11:26:43 AM
I agree- so again, how long- an entire LP side? MP3 is fine- its just about showing an absence of ticks and pops, right? The LP I was talking about (and is only one of many examples) is a 1960 pressing of an Angel recording of the Four Seasons.
To make sure I understand you correctly...
You are offering to post a sample of a recording from an LP that you claim exhibits no ticks or pops. I'd say that a 2 minute section is probably sufficient, because in my experience it's extremely rare to find an LP that has no ticks or pops over the course of 2 minutes. If it's from The Four Seasons, please include a quiet section - not just one of the bits where the orchestra is going full tilt. FLAC format please. (And of course we are all assuming that you will be honourable enough not to have put the recording through a declicker before posting it).
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 07 December, 2017, 06:21:27 PM
I agree- so again, how long- an entire LP side? MP3 is fine- its just about showing an absence of ticks and pops, right? The LP I was talking about (and is only one of many examples) is a 1960 pressing of an Angel recording of the Four Seasons.
To make sure I understand you correctly...
You are offering to post a sample of a recording from an LP that you claim exhibits no ticks or pops. I'd say that a 2 minute section is probably sufficient, because in my experience it's extremely rare to find an LP that has no ticks or pops over the course of 2 minutes. If it's from The Four Seasons, please include a quiet section - not just one of the bits where the orchestra is going full tilt. FLAC format please. (And of course we are all assuming that you will be honourable enough not to have put the recording through a declicker before posting it).


Thanks! I was planning a much longer recording, as my claim that started this bit is that I am very used to not hearing ticks and pops over an entire LP side.

I assume a de-clicker will leave some sort of footprint that distinguishes it beyond the lack of ticks and pops. 

My claim is thus:
many LPs are entirely free of audible ticks and pops if played back properly *and* are also free of scratches.
The things that contribute to proper playback are
* a properly set up tone arm, which is also able to properly track the cartridge, which in turn is in decent functioning condition
* a stable phono section, which does not exacerbate inaudible ticks to the point that they become audible. A preamp that is susceptible to RFI is far more likely to have problems with this since the phono cartridge and cable can often produce RFI on its own, due to the tank circuit created by the two.

So if I can show that I get no ticks and pops, is there then acceptance of my assertions above?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 07 December, 2017, 08:33:39 PM
I assume a de-clicker will leave some sort of footprint that distinguishes it beyond the lack of ticks and pops. 
Which one were you planning on using?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 08 December, 2017, 12:52:11 AM
I agree- so again, how long- an entire LP side? MP3 is fine- its just about showing an absence of ticks and pops, right? The LP I was talking about (and is only one of many examples) is a 1960 pressing of an Angel recording of the Four Seasons.
To make sure I understand you correctly...
You are offering to post a sample of a recording from an LP that you claim exhibits no ticks or pops. I'd say that a 2 minute section is probably sufficient, because in my experience it's extremely rare to find an LP that has no ticks or pops over the course of 2 minutes. If it's from The Four Seasons, please include a quiet section - not just one of the bits where the orchestra is going full tilt. FLAC format please. (And of course we are all assuming that you will be honourable enough not to have put the recording through a declicker before posting it).


Thanks! I was planning a much longer recording, as my claim that started this bit is that I am very used to not hearing ticks and pops over an entire LP side.

I assume a de-clicker will leave some sort of footprint that distinguishes it beyond the lack of ticks and pops. 

My claim is thus:
many LPs are entirely free of audible ticks and pops if played back properly *and* are also free of scratches.
The things that contribute to proper playback are
* a properly set up tone arm, which is also able to properly track the cartridge, which in turn is in decent functioning condition
* a stable phono section, which does not exacerbate inaudible ticks to the point that they become audible. A preamp that is susceptible to RFI is far more likely to have problems with this since the phono cartridge and cable can often produce RFI on its own, due to the tank circuit created by the two.

So if I can show that I get no ticks and pops, is there then acceptance of my assertions above?

That a cartridge and cable can produce RFI on their own would a violation of the law of conservation of energy since they are passive.  So no, I'm not going to agree to a claimed proof of perpetual motion!

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: cliveb on 08 December, 2017, 06:32:16 AM
I assume a de-clicker will leave some sort of footprint that distinguishes it beyond the lack of ticks and pops. 
Which one were you planning on using?
I assumed that Atmasphere isn't planning to use a declicker at all.
If he does, then that kind of defeats the purpose of posting a recording of an LP to prove that vinyl playback can be click-free.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: andy o on 08 December, 2017, 06:40:13 AM
My claim is thus:
many LPs are entirely free of audible ticks and pops if played back properly *and* are also free of scratches.
The things that contribute to proper playback are
* a properly set up tone arm, which is also able to properly track the cartridge, which in turn is in decent functioning condition
* a stable phono section, which does not exacerbate inaudible ticks to the point that they become audible. A preamp that is susceptible to RFI is far more likely to have problems with this since the phono cartridge and cable can often produce RFI on its own, due to the tank circuit created by the two.

So if I can show that I get no ticks and pops, is there then acceptance of my assertions above?
My claim is thus:
The vast majority of digital music (playback) is entirely free of audible ticks and pops if played back properly by pressing the "play" button. The end.

Why even defend vinyl by listing all the inconveniences and even cost you have to go through, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. Just say you like it cause it's a romantic or nostalgic thing, what's so wrong with that? People gotta rationalize everything.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 08 December, 2017, 08:11:12 AM

I assume a de-clicker will leave some sort of footprint that distinguishes it beyond the lack of ticks and pops. 


IME, yes declickers often leave sonic footprints all over processed tracks, even areas of them that have no clicks.

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 08 December, 2017, 08:25:38 AM
I assumed that Atmasphere isn't planning to use a declicker at all.
I assume he's aware, unlike the D/Ks at AA slurping his distortion nonsense, we'll be analyzing and looking for stuff like that  ;)


If he does, then that kind of defeats the purpose of posting a recording of an LP to prove that vinyl playback can be click-free.
It remains to be seen whether he posts anything. Notice there has been some "delay".  Christmas could come early.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 08 December, 2017, 03:02:11 PM
Quote
That a cartridge and cable can produce RFI on their own would a violation of the law of conservation of energy since they are passive.  So no, I'm not going to agree to a claimed proof of perpetual motion!

The cartridge itself is the source of excitation, the energy coming from the cartridge tracking an LP. If the cartridge is MM, typically the inductances are much larger and so the resonant frequency is much lower (i.e. may be just outside or in the audio passband). So that would not be RFI but it may well be ultrasonic. Some preamps are alright with that and some are not. At any rate for either LOMC or MM low cable capacitance is advised to keep the tank circuit to a higher frequency.
Quote
I assume he's aware, unlike the D/Ks at AA slurping his distortion nonsense, we'll be analyzing and looking for stuff like that  ;)

I expect that. My plan is to post a file directly from the Zoom recorder and it only supports WAV and mp3, so I'm going with the WAV file, 16 bit 44.1KHz. I have the Zoom at home finally so hopefully I can post the soundfile in the next few days.

Again- 2 minutes is enough time to make my point?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: krabapple on 08 December, 2017, 09:09:20 PM
I assume a de-clicker will leave some sort of footprint that distinguishes it beyond the lack of ticks and pops. 
Which one were you planning on using?
I assumed that Atmasphere isn't planning to use a declicker at all.
If he does, then that kind of defeats the purpose of posting a recording of an LP to prove that vinyl playback can be click-free.

I think there was sarcasm in play there.   ;)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: krabapple on 08 December, 2017, 09:11:31 PM

I assume a de-clicker will leave some sort of footprint that distinguishes it beyond the lack of ticks and pops. 


IME, yes declickers often leave sonic footprints all over processed tracks, even areas of them that have no clicks.

It depends on how declcking is done.  Cliveb made a tool that allows as an option manual, one-at-a time declicking, which you'd have to look hard and tediously to find evidence of afterwards., if it's done carefully. 
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 09 December, 2017, 06:13:36 AM

I assume a de-clicker will leave some sort of footprint that distinguishes it beyond the lack of ticks and pops. 


IME, yes declickers often leave sonic footprints all over processed tracks, even areas of them that have no clicks.

It depends on how declcking is done.  Cliveb made a tool that allows as an option manual, one-at-a time declicking, which you'd have to look hard and tediously to find evidence of afterwards., if it's done carefully. 
Hmm, I'm only familiar with the algorithm by Craig DeForest, which is using thresholding and then simply interpolates samples over the length of the click it detects, with added heuristics (which are adjustable). Any other algorithms commonly used in those fields?

It seems most algorithms in DAWs rely on the user kinda narrow down the section where the pops and clicks occur. Automatic detection usually seems to use some form of frequency masking to allow for noise-like sounds to come through.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 09 December, 2017, 07:02:14 AM
My plan is to post a file directly from the Zoom recorder and it only supports WAV and mp3, so I'm going with the WAV file, 16 bit 44.1KHz. I have the Zoom at home finally so hopefully I can post the soundfile in the next few days.

Again- 2 minutes is enough time to make my point?
Sure, just post file and we'll see
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 09 December, 2017, 01:19:20 PM
I wonder why it's taking him so long...
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 09 December, 2017, 02:05:37 PM
He's busy removing the clicks and pops, one by one.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 09 December, 2017, 03:44:34 PM
Yeah, we've probably ruined his weekend. :D
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: The Seeker on 09 December, 2017, 08:13:49 PM
He's busy removing the clicks and pops, one by one.

(https://i.imgur.com/rDfqvgd.gif)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 01:21:49 AM
He's busy removing the clicks and pops, one by one.

What is with this habit of posting images or animated gifs as replies on this forum? I agree with you on the subject matter, but I still find the practice off putting. Can’t you just articulate your answer without using crutches?

(https://i.imgur.com/rDfqvgd.gif)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 10 December, 2017, 01:30:25 AM
Can you figure out how to craft a reply without either quoting everything from the previous post, needlessly; or inserting your reply within the quote, incompetently?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 10 December, 2017, 03:16:37 AM
What is with this habit of posting images or animated gifs as replies on this forum? I agree with you on the subject matter, but I still find the practice off putting. Can’t you just articulate your answer without using crutches?

Your inability to use this forum, coupled with your passive (and sometimes even overt) aggressiveness, mixed with your lack of understanding of this forum in general - especially the longer standing users, is far more off putting, than any old gif or image macro.

You've started two threads in the recent history, both of which are filled with nothing but vile trolling on your side. If anything you've proven you're unable to have a conversation. I'm not saying everyone on HA is a saint, but the last month or so was quite eye-opening.

Your last post is a prime example of that.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: andy o on 10 December, 2017, 05:02:16 AM
He (like, come on, he's likely a he) reminds me of a 20-year-old youtube atheist who just discovered creationism is a thing and finished reading a Sam Harris book. RATIONALISM! WAR ON SCIENCE! Relax, guy, it's just audiophoolery, it can be mocked without taking yourself so seriously. And bandying about credentials without backing them up? Sure, that'll fly here. Maybe don't come off as a douche if you want people to support your self-indulging War On Pseudoscience?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 10 December, 2017, 05:26:48 AM
Don't treat my post as a personal attack but misquoting is a serious thing. I'd definitely complain if someone misquote my post.

An example:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,111995.msg923135.html#msg923135

Also, if you don't like picture reply and listening tests, you have freedom to leave and start your own forum with any rules you like.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 06:34:47 AM
Can you figure out how to craft a reply without either quoting everything from the previous post, needlessly; or inserting your reply within the quote, incompetently?

My mistake, i apologize for the misplaced quote.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 06:55:37 AM
Your inability to use this forum, coupled with your passive (and sometimes even overt) aggressiveness, mixed with your lack of understanding of this forum in general - especially the longer standing users, is far more off putting, than any old gif or image macro.

Sorry, but stating facts that some might find unpleasant is not aggressiveness.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 07:19:41 AM
Relax, guy, it's just audiophoolery, it can be mocked without taking yourself so seriously.

If only I could be as relaxed as you. I don’t see audiophoolery as an innocent quirk, But rather as a part of war on science (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/War_on_Science)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 10 December, 2017, 08:02:10 AM
I said that 0.03% does NOT GUARANTEE that the distortion is absolutely(!) inaudible in all cases.

I don’t see audiophoolery as an innocent quirk, But rather as a part of war on science (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/War_on_Science)
(https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/2/26/Recognize-Delusional-Disorders-Step-9.jpg/aid1333243-v4-728px-Recognize-Delusional-Disorders-Step-9.jpg)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 08:40:14 AM
I said that 0.03% does NOT GUARANTEE that the distortion is absolutely(!) inaudible in all cases.

Cannot stop amusing us, can you? You don’t get the rather simple point of the linked Benchmark paper because the little bit of high school level math there is too hard for you. And yet you are convinced that you can competently comment on scientific matters.

P. S. Not to say a word about your quick willingness to denigrate the Benchmark paper as BS. Dude, just compare who uses their products and who uses yours.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 10 December, 2017, 09:15:01 AM
I said that 0.03% does NOT GUARANTEE that the distortion is absolutely(!) inaudible in all cases.

I don’t see audiophoolery as an innocent quirk, But rather as a part of war on science (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/War_on_Science)

And yet you are convinced that you can competently comment on scientific matters.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6ZthmTOnPUyaXUWzKv83_gfceOWVXR8dkpePCUyagnVZuKvn4BQ)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 09:29:31 AM
The Benchmark link is nonsense. There are no listening tests involved, just numbers thrown out and assumptions.

Dude, you put in me in a rather good company, I strongly prefer to be in agreement with Benchmark than with you, given your relative statures in the audio world.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 10 December, 2017, 09:40:47 AM
The Benchmark link is nonsense. There are no listening tests involved, just numbers thrown out and assumptions.
Dude, you put in me in a rather good company, I strongly prefer to be in agreement with Benchmark than with you, given your relative statures in the audio world.
(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=64102fd46ffd6d91a7efd2ee8cf773eb" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://slideplayer.com/35/10279990/big_thumb.jpg)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 10:00:46 AM
The Benchmark link is nonsense. There are no listening tests involved, just numbers thrown out and assumptions.

You should write to them and castigate them for their incompetence. Advice from you, a giant in the field of audio, will surely make them change their ways.  :D

And while at it, why don't you write to Texas Instruments as well and order them to start including listening test results in their audio op amp datasheets. Enough of this throwing around numbers business.

Dude, you have so much to offer to the world.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 10 December, 2017, 10:13:21 AM
Quote
Hydrogenaudio Terms of Service / Notices

8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims.  Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings.  Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.
The Benchmark link is nonsense. There are no listening tests involved, just numbers thrown out and assumptions.
You should write to them and castigate them for their incompetence.
They aren't the chumpling posting here, despite TOS anti-moron rules in place.  ;)


Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 10 December, 2017, 10:17:52 AM
And while at it, why don't you write to Texas Instruments as well and order them to start including listening test results in their audio op amp datasheets. Enough of this throwing around numbers business.
They actually do listening tests of their audio components. Not just Ti but other manufacturers, too. RFI was actually providing their results for quite some time up till the mid 90's or so, when I kinda lost interest in that.

Companies like Sennheiser crosscheck their equipment via ABX listening tests, too.

Oh, and about this:
Quote from: mmrkaic
Sorry, but stating facts that some might find unpleasant is not aggressiveness.
My statement that you're aggressive, be it passive or overt, is not related to any facts as such. I meant your general demeanor, they way you conduct yourself, and your inability to hold a calm and collected conversation. Instead you seem to like getting into heated slime fights. If you can present and defend facts, that's fine, nobody will have anything against that. But you've shown you're unable to do that, instead you're simply trying to - well - attack people without even referencing any "facts" that you might know about. You're simply reverting to the "I know better" narrative.

So on that note, don't straw-man and either have a decent conversation, or you might want to leave to take your "heated arguments" elsewhere.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 10:20:17 AM
The Benchmark link is nonsense. There are no listening tests involved, just numbers thrown out

Yes, numbers are so hard. Bad, Benchmark, bad.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 10 December, 2017, 10:23:10 AM
The Benchmark link is nonsense. There are no listening tests involved, just numbers thrown out
Yes, numbers are so hard. Bad, Benchmark, bad.
You should write to them and castigate them for their incompetence.
(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=c33902fcf5b0010cfcbcb03e09e7f29f" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/183/580/5b3.jpg)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 10:30:47 AM
They actually do listening tests of their audio components. Not just Ti but other manufacturers, too. RFI was actually providing their results for quite some time up till the mid 90's or so, when I kinda lost interest in that.

So on that note, don't straw-man and either have a decent conversation, or you might want to leave to take your "heated arguments" elsewhere.

1. TI does not publish their listening test results as a some sort of proof of sound quality.

2. What exactly makes you think that you can order people around as you did in you last sentence? Now, that is aggressive behavior, don't you think?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 10:33:05 AM
The Benchmark link is nonsense.

You did not prove the above claim. :D
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 10:41:23 AM
Hydrogenaudio Terms of Service / Notices
...


Incidentally, who is the author of the TOS? Do you happen to know? I mean, is it just the administrator or is it a collective work?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 10 December, 2017, 10:47:46 AM

Quote
Hydrogenaudio Terms of Service / Notices

8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims.  Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings.  Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.

I have a scientific background (masters in Physics and PhD in economics)

You did not prove the above claim. :D
Indeed
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 10 December, 2017, 10:50:10 AM

Quote
Hydrogenaudio Terms of Service / Notices

8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims.  Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings.  Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.

I have a scientific background (masters in Physics and PhD in economics)

You did not prove the above claim. :D
Indeed

You are deliberately misquoting me. That should be reported. (But why bother, a waste of time.)

P.S. As regards credentials, nobody here posts photos of their degrees.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 10 December, 2017, 10:54:26 AM
You are deliberately misquoting me. That should be reported.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/sdmxGUlMTXNGU/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 10 December, 2017, 12:55:31 PM
Gosh! Before this guy started out his, erm, war/quest/whatever-crap-he-is-at over here, I wouldn't have believed that anyone above 12 could carry out so many shit-throwing battles at so many people at once and still put on a tantrum whenever he has fingers pointed at his pathetic and lame attempts at promoting himself and/or speaking his wacky mind out, as if said people were just picking on him, poor soul.

Oh wait! Yes, I would've:
(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=f4d1ef873048dc61f97282853f3dcdf3" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/56d30e542e52651c008ba153-480/donald-trump.jpg)

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: pdq on 11 December, 2017, 02:28:54 PM
Incidentally, who is the author of the TOS? Do you happen to know? I mean, is it just the administrator or is it a collective work?
The creator of this forum, who goes by the name Dibrom, posted these terms of service on day one, to let anyone interested in joining/posting that they would not be allowed to get away with things that were being practiced in a previous forum (r3mix). There has not been a need for these terms to be modified in any way since.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 11 December, 2017, 06:19:48 PM
OK- I have it recorded. Does this site host sound files?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: eric.w on 12 December, 2017, 01:24:31 AM
Yes - click "Reply", then below the text box for composing your post there's "Add files by dragging & dropping"
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: cliveb on 12 December, 2017, 03:42:56 AM
OK- I have it recorded. Does this site host sound files?
Please remember - do NOT encode them with a lossy codec (eg MP3). Lossy codecs can smear vinyl ticks. Use something like FLAC.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 12 December, 2017, 08:33:37 AM
Lossy codecs can smear vinyl ticks.
So no MQA either then?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 12 December, 2017, 02:48:53 PM
Yes - click "Reply", then below the text box for composing your post there's "Add files by dragging & dropping"

Thanks- I tried that but the file seems to be too large- 31.8MB as a WAV file and 13.2 as a FLAC
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Case on 12 December, 2017, 02:58:22 PM
I believe Uploads (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/board,35.0.html) section allows that size. Create a new topic and post the sample there.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 12 December, 2017, 04:18:02 PM
I believe Uploads (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/board,35.0.html) section allows that size. Create a new topic and post the sample there.

That does not work either- same restrictions apply.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: danadam on 12 December, 2017, 04:42:43 PM
The description says "Restrictions: 16 per post, maximum total size 40,960 KB, maximum individual size 40,960 KB"

I just uploaded 30 MB, so it works: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115100.0.html
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 12 December, 2017, 05:34:34 PM
The description says "Restrictions: 16 per post, maximum total size 40,960 KB, maximum individual size 40,960 KB"

I just uploaded 30 MB, so it works: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115100.0.html

I don't know how you got away with it then- isn't 30MB more than 41KB?? It errors me off, complaining that the file size is too large.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: frenzic on 12 December, 2017, 06:05:12 PM
I could host any files in my cloud and post the links if you like.
You could also use winrar or such to make a multi part archive, compressed or not. That should do the trick just fine.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: danadam on 12 December, 2017, 08:12:03 PM
isn't 30MB more than 41KB??
It is, but the limit is 40960 kB, not 41 kB. Comma usually is not a decimal mark in english, point "." is. But I'd agree that using comma in that message was not the best of ideas.

@Admins Also the name of the file has to contain a dot, otherwise nothing happens and the browser console shows:
Code: [Select]
TypeError: /(?:\.([^.]+))?$/.exec(...)[1] is undefined  hive-adfa3f58d8e943a7b9def2647ae4b1ff524b227c.js:313:81
(Firefox 57, Linux)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Paul_ 2012 on 12 December, 2017, 10:27:08 PM
As there appears to be a hiatus in receiving the eagerly awaited file i'll fill the void with my trivia. My first experience with vinyl was when my two years older brother bought a second hand Dansette Delux player which then necessitated buying the medium. It was great and thoroughly enjoyed the experience and it was only in later years that I purchase a better system made of a single brand of separate components including a deck. The speaker cabinets which I still own but don't use were in kit form but as my partner at the time worked for Philips the makers, they took it upon themselves to assemble them for me. At first I got real pleasure from this far and away "improved" sound but after a while I became irritated with the pops and crackles even after handling the records with care. When a friend demonstrated the first cd player I had seen it blew me away with the versatility and ease of use. There was also a cassette deck but I cannot remember purchasing a single prerecorded tape and the process of copying to tape did my head in mostly. I have a pile of vinyl in the wardrobe which is never used, a deck which is never used and cannot think why it ever will. When I visit a couple of friends with vinyl I love to listen, the sound is great but the effort going into preserving and playing it is in my view insane not to mention the cost, but they love it. It reminds me of when I bought my first fishing rod, fibreglass rods were available but I went for the split cane version it just looked a whole lot better to me I was about 12.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: kode54 on 12 December, 2017, 10:41:05 PM
You uploaded the file to a post, then it was deleted? I don't know who deleted it, as there's no logged action of anyone deleting it.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: danadam on 12 December, 2017, 11:28:48 PM
You uploaded the file to a post, then it was deleted?
No.

After clicking "selecting them" a file browser shows up. If I select a file with a dot in its name then a progress bar shows up and uploading starts, like in the screenshot in the attachment. That's fine. But if I select a file without any dots (in another words, without extension) then nothing happens, progress bar doesn't show up and there is no info/feedback to the user what happened. The only thing is that error in the browser console that I posted earlier.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: kode54 on 13 December, 2017, 03:17:12 AM
I was responding to @Atmasphere , who uploaded their FLAC, but the post is somehow in the deleted posts bin, along with the attachment.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 13 December, 2017, 06:11:12 AM
I opbtained an allegedly exceptionally clean needle drop that was brought forward by a LP advocate. (Supertramp, "Give A Little Bit")

In an earlier analysis, there were unmistakable artifacts of a 48 KHz digital encoding step that were visible during a 0.5 second quiet time at the beginning of the track. The question then becomes at what step in the process did the digitization happen?

I realized that if the digital artifacts were masked by LP nonlinear distortion artifacts, then that would be solid evidence that a 48 KHz digitization step that happened during production was the source of these digital artifacts.

So, to clarify the situation, I did an analysis of one of the loud passages on the LP.

The attachment shows the digital artifacts as a green line, which being very small are most obvious during the brief (0.5 second) silence at the beginning of the track. 


The red line represents the analysis of the loud passage. 

Since the digital artifacts are totally masked during the loud passage, the 48 KHz digitization happened during production, and not after the LP was played.  

Because the master was digitized at 48 KHz, anything in the plot above 24 KHz during the loud passage is an artifact of the LP process. I believe that this sheds some light on reports of > 20 KHz signals on LPs: They are likely artifacts of nonlinier distortion, and exist even when all audio signals > 20 KHz are forcably removed from the audio signal.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: antz on 13 December, 2017, 06:37:01 AM
As there appears to be a hiatus in receiving the eagerly awaited file i'll fill the void with my trivia. My first experience with vinyl was when my two years older brother bought a second hand Dansette Delux player which then necessitated buying the medium. It was great and thoroughly enjoyed the experience and it was only in later years that I purchase a better system made of a single brand of separate components including a deck. The speaker cabinets which I still own but don't use were in kit form but as my partner at the time worked for Philips the makers, they took it upon themselves to assemble them for me. At first I got real pleasure from this far and away "improved" sound but after a while I became irritated with the pops and crackles even after handling the records with care. When a friend demonstrated the first cd player I had seen it blew me away with the versatility and ease of use. There was also a cassette deck but I cannot remember purchasing a single prerecorded tape and the process of copying to tape did my head in mostly. I have a pile of vinyl in the wardrobe which is never used, a deck which is never used and cannot think why it ever will. When I visit a couple of friends with vinyl I love to listen, the sound is great but the effort going into preserving and playing it is in my view insane not to mention the cost, but they love it. It reminds me of when I bought my first fishing rod, fibreglass rods were available but I went for the split cane version it just looked a whole lot better to me I was about 12.
My experience is similar, starting off on much the same player. I graduated to a second-hand Thorens TD150 (still have it) and better gear later on and bought vinyl because there was nothing better back then. I also embraced the CD, both for convenience and for sound quality, as soon as the stuff became affordable.

Over the years, I've heard probably thousands of LPs and singles, played on dozens of different systems and I don't think I've ever heard a whole record tick and pop-free, whether new, cleaned, cared-for or any other possibility.

I'll call BS on the "stable pre-amp" theory, it doesn't stand up to logic or evidence. The implication of it would be that every pre-amp I've ever heard was UNstable. Now, I'm happy to accept that some audio gear was (and is) of dubious design and I've certainly heard some of it but to suggest that most designers don't understand the concepts and manage to produce unstable designs seems rather unlikely. Furthermore, such instability would probably have to be borderline in all cases to "set off the instabilities", as claimed, rather than just oscillate continuously.

I'd also call BS on the idea of testing stability with a 5W transmitter nearby and the covers off. A phono pre-amp is, of necessity, a sensitive bit of gear and I'd lay money on 5W of RF worming its way into even the most careful of designs.

I think the call for a couple of minutes of tick and pop-free sample is excessively lenient. I'm reasonably confident, with judicious choices, I could find some amongst my LP recordings (which are not lossless format). A whole side? No chance! Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (Carl Sagan), so let's have a whole LP side, at least.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 13 December, 2017, 07:10:42 AM
(https://i.giphy.com/media/E3xXqq617AaFW/giphy.webp)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 13 December, 2017, 07:58:07 AM
Here's a selected 30 seconds of the file used to perform the analysis shown above
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 13 December, 2017, 08:04:21 AM
I was responding to @Atmasphere , who uploaded their FLAC, but the post is somehow in the deleted posts bin, along with the attachment.
Sounds like a conspiracy. ::)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 13 December, 2017, 08:59:03 AM
AES mafia again?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 13 December, 2017, 02:36:47 PM
member frenzic has graciously offered to host the file. Thanks!

Other than processing to convert from WAV to FLAC, no other processing is employed. This is a roughly 3 minute excerpt from a 1960 Angel recording on the original red label. I have heard this LP on other systems in which the LP displayed ticks and pops.

Many ticks and pops are the result of oscillation on the part of the phono equalizer- I'm not saying that the ticks or pops is not there, just that they are normally inaudible if the phono preamp does not oscillate with each event. The other aspect is of course that the pickup be properly able to track the cartridge without issues.

Equipment used for playback: Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp, Triplanar 9" arm, Transfiguation Orpheus cartridge.

Media damage like a scratch is another matter, but the solution there is simple- don't damage your recordings. I have many LPs that play with this sort of silence- some much better because as you can here, Angel didn't make the best of vinyl surfaces. In later years the process did improve- some of the vinyl surfaces being made today are considerably lower noise. Have fun!

Thanks again to frenzic for the space.

https://frenzic.stackstorage.com/s/qWaeNomLqADFqkg
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 13 December, 2017, 03:41:35 PM
At the 2:34> mark I can hear ticks, pops and noise, including what sounds like talking or maybe a tv going in background? WTH?  :)
This is listening with in living room with custom active 8" 2 (https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/soundfield-audio-suncoast-audiophile-society.1813/) way monitors. I'm sure the headphone guys will chime in with more detail.
Lastly, I realize its a Zoom recording in room, but the SQ is abysmal (per my >audiophile standards). Hopefully/should be much better on site
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 13 December, 2017, 04:01:17 PM
The whole thing sounds mono (78rpm?) with some stereo expansion effects added. I prefer stereo vinyl rip with clicks rather than this.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 13 December, 2017, 04:28:04 PM
At the 2:34> mark I can hear ticks, pops and noise, including what sounds like talking or maybe a tv going in background? WTH?  :)

yup- forgot to turn off NPR. There is also one spot where a slight tick is heard when the furnace went on...
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 13 December, 2017, 04:36:12 PM
19:46:49 : 02/03  50.0%    << dog barked in my ear wanting to go out
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: kode54 on 13 December, 2017, 06:50:29 PM
Since Atmasphere can't seem to get his FLAC posted here, I'll just repost it. 13MB of wasted disk space on uploading a second copy, one he can't meddle with now that he's shared it.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 13 December, 2017, 08:25:06 PM
At the 2:34> mark I can hear ticks, pops and noise, including what sounds like talking or maybe a tv going in background? WTH?  :)
This is listening with in living room with custom active 8" 2 (https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/soundfield-audio-suncoast-audiophile-society.1813/) way monitors. I'm sure the headphone guys will chime in with more detail.
Lastly, I realize its a Zoom recording in room, but the SQ is abysmal (per my >audiophile standards). Hopefully/should be much better on site

I listened to the ZOOM... FLAC, and it was so bad that had to listen to something else to reassure myself that something wasn't broken.  I can confirm the tics you mention.  Vinyl does not have to sound this bad, and vinyl from the 60s doesn't have to sound this bad.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 13 December, 2017, 08:50:34 PM
Are you sure the amp you're using to play the file is properly damped?

According to the article here, www.corksniffingplacebophilia.com/usepseudosciencetopedalyoursnakeoil.pdf, it will get rid of "vinyl noise" because it doesn't really exist.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 13 December, 2017, 08:53:12 PM
Btw, possibly to clarify, I assume he has something like this at his seat pointed at his speakers playing vinyl
(https://www.videoguys.com.au/ProdImages/4251/h4n_7.jpg.ashx?maxWidth=300&maxHeight=300&quality=100)
Hence the SQ...and still audible LP surface noise  ::)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 13 December, 2017, 08:54:41 PM
I cannot stand the phase errors *runs through Stereo Tool plugin for Winamp*.

The clicks are still there and there isn't much that can be done on my part to fix it.  MP3s & CDs sound better than this.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 13 December, 2017, 08:59:38 PM
Are you sure the amp you're using to play the file is properly damped?
(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=e2b5a6840be5cb6769357ee7a0439c3b" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/03/03a15943d62ed1529618ea8b4a0b5dacdff6c401c2c750f803edc6584beb2cb9.jpg)
..and preamp stability of course
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 13 December, 2017, 09:09:33 PM
Are you sure the amp you're using to play the file is properly damped?
(https://hydrogenaud.io/imgcache.php?id=e2b5a6840be5cb6769357ee7a0439c3b" rel="cached" data-warn="External image, click to view at original size" data-url="http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/03/03a15943d62ed1529618ea8b4a0b5dacdff6c401c2c750f803edc6584beb2cb9.jpg)
..and preamp stability of course


Don't forget bad mono recordings needle dropped as stereo FLACs (waste of space).
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Wombat on 13 December, 2017, 10:12:38 PM
I find it brave to post such a sample!
The permanent rambling and surface noise like things are really lower in this recording as other LP rips i heard but the total tonality is really aching bad and i hope it it is the recording device.
Still there are tiny clicks here and there and a steady obvious 60Hz hum.
No idea yet what to make out of it. Not very convincing.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 14 December, 2017, 01:07:14 AM
Btw, possibly to clarify, I assume he has something like this at his seat pointed at his speakers playing vinyl
(https://www.videoguys.com.au/ProdImages/4251/h4n_7.jpg.ashx?maxWidth=300&maxHeight=300&quality=100)
Hence the SQ...and still audible LP surface noise  ::)

Don't underestimate the ability of portable recorders to capture reasonable stereo image and frequency response in a room without acoustic treatments. That flac file definitely hurt the reputation of Zoom and other portable recorders.
https://youtu.be/koJBEsX26tg
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Case on 14 December, 2017, 01:33:53 AM
Is there no way to record the audio directly from the vinyl player without involving speakers, room acoustics, outside noises and possible lossy compression in the recorder?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 14 December, 2017, 03:10:28 AM
Is there no way to record the audio directly from the vinyl player without involving speakers, room acoustics, outside noises and possible lossy compression in the recorder?

Avoid a silly recorder and just use a computer to do it?  Doesn't his record player at least have RCA jacks on it?  A simple RCA to 3.5 mm cable works quite well and there's no shortage of adapters.  The only annoying problem I can think of is a ground loop happening but there is a few ways of resolving that.

He could try the bottom ports but I have no idea what they're for, if he did use the device AJ posted a picture of, well I've uploaded the operation manual for it right here.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: splice on 14 December, 2017, 04:26:30 AM
I don't see this as a valid sample. In my opinion, it should be recorded from the preamp out to the line ins on the Zoom. I naively assumed that's what he was going to do.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: antz on 14 December, 2017, 05:09:58 AM
Many ticks and pops are the result of oscillation on the part of the phono equalizer- I'm not saying that the ticks or pops is not there, just that they are normally inaudible if the phono preamp does not oscillate with each event. The other aspect is of course that the pickup be properly able to track the cartridge without issues.

Equipment used for playback: Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp, Triplanar 9" arm, Transfiguation Orpheus cartridge.


You keep repeating this fallacy about pre-amp/phono stage oscillation, so how did you arrive at this conclusion? I've had plenty of occasions to be using an oscilloscope on audio gear; this would easily show such oscillation, yet I've never seen even a hint. Do you actually have a clue what oscillation is? Any phono stage or pre-amp has more than enough gain to oscillate, given the right (or wrong, depending on your viewpoint) conditions. Once oscillating, they are not going to stop until the power is removed or the "fault" is corrected.

On the other hand, a zero-feedback 16-valve (tube) design like the MP-1 might be more common in your world and I can believe such designs would be prone to problems.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 14 December, 2017, 05:14:52 AM
Either I missed on some specific reason, or I don't know what the point of uploading "that" actually was, either - besides it being a blatant shot in a placebophile's own foot.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 14 December, 2017, 06:27:36 AM
I don't see this as a valid sample. In my opinion, it should be recorded from the preamp out to the line ins on the Zoom. I naively assumed that's what he was going to do.
Exactly. Just use the line-in of the portable recorder.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107529.0.html

The link is broken due to last year's forum upgrade, the result is still there:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,107528.0.html

If the recorder doesn't even support line-in, the whole test is pointless. Even my 10+ years old Creative Zen has a line-in jack, it only supports 128k wma though. I attached a line-in recording of my Zen using my soundcard's 3.5mm output to play the LP sample.flac in this post, the sound quality is much more reasonable, even with lossy encoding.
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114377.msg943125.html#msg943125

What an innovative method to use the mic to hide the artifacts. :))
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 14 December, 2017, 06:59:25 AM
Either I missed on some specific reason, or I don't know what the point of uploading "that" actually was, either - besides it being a blatant shot in a placebophile's own foot.

As if there were any questions or doubts, we now know for sure why this guy is a true believer in just about every placebophile myth that flushes down the sewer of ignorant audiophilia - he doesn't even know enough to use the tape outputs on that megabuck retro-tech preamp of his.  (please see attachment)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 14 December, 2017, 07:05:05 AM
As if there were any questions or doubts, we now know for sure why this guy is a true believer in just about every placebophile myth that flushes down the sewer of ignorant audiophilia - he doesn't even know enough to use the tape outputs on that megabuck retro-tech preamp of his.  (please see attachment)
...and an extremely funny post like this:
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115012.msg949291.html#msg949291
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 14 December, 2017, 07:33:26 AM
Either I missed on some specific reason, or I don't know what the point of uploading "that" actually was, either - besides it being a blatant shot in a placebophile's own foot.

As if there were any questions or doubts, we now know for sure why this guy is a true believer in just about every placebophile myth that flushes down the sewer of ignorant audiophilia - he doesn't even know enough to use the tape outputs on that megabuck retro-tech preamp of his.  (please see attachment)
So, we rest our case. (again)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 14 December, 2017, 08:26:57 AM
C'mon now LoFiers, give the HiFi guy a break.
I know y'all can't afford a $100 cartridge, but you really owe it to yourselves to go to a "High End" show and meet these old freak "inmate" types from Asylum and other such fora. Them and their D-K believer audio systems are a hoot in person.
You think this thread was funny? Go check out one of those shows. ;)

Ok, I think the credits are rolling on this one....
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 14 December, 2017, 10:29:56 AM
I'll be awaiting hearing about how he "showed us" over at the placebophile asylum.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 14 December, 2017, 11:07:17 AM
They eargerly wait for their envoy:

(https://simonsayswatchthis.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/cuckoo.jpg)

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 14 December, 2017, 12:42:26 PM
Not near enough grey hair, but yeah, similar to the (self assessed) elite aural athlete Olympic gatherings.

In audiophile circles, you're viewed as a hero if you can hear stuff that others cannot. In real life, you're committed to an institution.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Atmasphere on 14 December, 2017, 03:12:21 PM
The Zoom recorder has a 1/8" input for line signals. Although the preamp has RCA output jacks, they are obviously taking the signal outside of the differential domain. One of the advantages of running differential circuits is lower noise. My concern was thus increased noise in doing a direct connection since I would be loosing the differential operation, plus it was a hassle to pull the FocusRite from the studio. So I set up the Zoom. This particular preamp is about 25 years old, being one of the first MP-1s built and so is a little nosier than later units. The Zoom was simply placed on a table, but what I didn't think about is that there is an arch between the living room where the speakers reside and the table. Imaging detail is diffused by both the arch and the flat plane of the table forward of the microphones in the Zoom.

There is a hum in the recording- the hum comes from the furnace fan. Having lived in Minnesota (which gets cold) and the same house since 1971 I no longer think about it.

I was asked to record a quieter portion of the LP. The first cut is a good 6 db louder through most of the track. I did prove my point despite the usual remonstrations.


Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 14 December, 2017, 04:53:55 PM
I did prove my point despite the usual remonstrations.
With that debacle you posted? You're quite the prankster Ralph, I'll give you that.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 14 December, 2017, 06:00:54 PM
The Zoom recorder has a 1/8" input for line signals. Although the preamp has RCA output jacks, they are obviously taking the signal outside of the differential domain. One of the advantages of running differential circuits is lower noise. My concern was thus increased noise in doing a direct connection since I would be loosing the differential operation, plus it was a hassle to pull the FocusRite from the studio. So I set up the Zoom. This particular preamp is about 25 years old, being one of the first MP-1s built and so is a little nosier than later units. The Zoom was simply placed on a table, but what I didn't think about is that there is an arch between the living room where the speakers reside and the table. Imaging detail is diffused by both the arch and the flat plane of the table forward of the microphones in the Zoom.

There is a hum in the recording- the hum comes from the furnace fan. Having lived in Minnesota (which gets cold) and the same house since 1971 I no longer think about it.

I was asked to record a quieter portion of the LP. The first cut is a good 6 db louder through most of the track. I did prove my point despite the usual remonstrations.




And you couldn't just hooked it up to a computer?  You're full of shit.

I live in a cold climate and since you said your home was built in 1971 I can imagine what that looks like and how loud the HVAC system is.  You aren't fooling me.  That type of hum (especially that of AC coil whining through the vents in a small home) is quite different.  A furnace is distinctive in its cycles and operations and most will just make a sound similar to large fan blowing air through the vents.  You just hear the air moving through, although you may hear the flames fire up before the blower turns on during a cycle.  Terms such as 2 ton blower going through vent systems that has a capacity of 2 tons has been brought up by AC & Furnace repairmen alike.  Did you purposely stay up until 3 am to record this as those usually when you get the most furnace cycles?

All the more reason that you're so full of shit for not using line in on a recording device, dude.

Which hospital dude?  Regions, United, Fairview, Abbott Northwestern?  Those all got psycho wards for you to visit and stay a while.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 14 December, 2017, 09:08:47 PM
The Zoom recorder has a 1/8" input for line signals. Although the preamp has RCA output jacks, they are obviously taking the signal outside of the differential domain. One of the advantages of running differential circuits is lower noise. My concern was thus increased noise in doing a direct connection since I would be loosing the differential operation, plus it was a hassle to pull the FocusRite from the studio. So I set up the Zoom. This particular preamp is about 25 years old, being one of the first MP-1s built and so is a little nosier than later units. The Zoom was simply placed on a table, but what I didn't think about is that there is an arch between the living room where the speakers reside and the table. Imaging detail is diffused by both the arch and the flat plane of the table forward of the microphones in the Zoom.

There is a hum in the recording- the hum comes from the furnace fan. Having lived in Minnesota (which gets cold) and the same house since 1971 I no longer think about it.

I was asked to record a quieter portion of the LP. The first cut is a good 6 db louder through most of the track. I did prove my point despite the usual remonstrations.

Any possible losses due to taking the signal outside of the differential domain vanish in comparison to losses inherent in taking it outside of the electrical domain and into the acoustic domain.

Look at it this way - the designer of your preamp obviously designed the recording output jacks for the purpose of driving a recorder, which is the task at hand.

If you have so little respect for the preamp's designer's implementation of recording outputs, what are you doing with the rest of such a piece of junk in your system?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 15 December, 2017, 12:01:11 AM
Time to update your signature, delete all your vinyl rips and throw away your 32/384 ADC greynol. You need to buy a Zoom and rip your vinyls with the built-in mic. :))  :))  :))
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: antz on 15 December, 2017, 06:41:22 AM
One of the advantages of running differential circuits is lower noise. My concern was thus increased noise in doing a direct connection since I would be loosing the differential operation...

Again, you're simply revealing your lack of understanding. Differential inputs are for rejecting common-mode noise*, which is rarely an issue in a domestic hi-fi situation, hence why it's uncommon.

I did prove my point despite the usual remonstrations.

The hole's getting deeper, it might be prudent to quit while you're behind?

* noise in the sense of unwanted signals, not noise in the sense of white noise due to unavoidable factors
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 15 December, 2017, 08:13:06 AM
Time to update your signature, delete all your vinyl rips and throw away your 32/384 ADC greynol. You need to buy a Zoom and rip your vinyls with the built-in mic. :))  :))  :))
Transform from a "LoFier" to a "HiFi" guy. Got a nice sneak preview of the kind of sound, those stricken with audiophile disorder are experiencing. You can't make this stuff up.  ;)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 15 December, 2017, 08:19:47 AM
The hole's getting deeper, it might be prudent to quit while you're behind?
Behind??
In his mind he can go back to Dunning-Kruger corner and revel in victory with the inmates. He showed those HA LoFiers incontrovertible proof of silent HiFi vinyl, despite the usual remonstrations.
Its a heck of an effect. Try an audio fashion jewelry show sometime, its even funnier.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: antz on 15 December, 2017, 08:40:11 AM
Its a heck of an effect. Try an audio fashion jewelry show sometime, its even funnier.
I had enough laughs when I looked up his MP-1. Might've cut it back in the '40s but two huge boxes and 16 valves just for a pre-amp? Even Mullard's didn't need half that many back in the '50s.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 15 December, 2017, 08:45:01 AM
https://youtu.be/4CkNc3yUrrk
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 15 December, 2017, 10:44:41 AM
My! Those guys needn't us "remonstrating" against their shoddy, make-believe claims.

They need professional help!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: cliveb on 15 December, 2017, 11:30:41 AM
I had enough laughs when I looked up his MP-1. Might've cut it back in the '40s but two huge boxes and 16 valves just for a pre-amp? Even Mullard's didn't need half that many back in the '50s.
That MP-1 preamp is made by a company called Atmasphere, which matches his HA user name. Does this mean that he is something to do with the company? Was his agenda all along to promote his preamp? Because if it was, then I think it has backfired.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 15 December, 2017, 11:47:22 AM
That MP-1 preamp is made by a company called Atmasphere, which matches his HA user name. Does this mean that he is something to do with the company? Was his agenda all along to promote his preamp? Because if it was, then I think it has backfired.
FWIW, I don't think so. I believe he does use his name both as a nickname and for his boutique amp company. I don't think he had marketing or promotion in mind joining here.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 15 December, 2017, 12:30:55 PM
Its a heck of an effect. Try an audio fashion jewelry show sometime, its even funnier.
I had enough laughs when I looked up his MP-1. Might've cut it back in the '40s but two huge boxes and 16 valves just for a pre-amp? Even Mullard's didn't need half that many back in the '50s.

I'd be more impressed with the resolution-reduced volume controls, except that I know what you can get out of a $3 chip these days...
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: cliveb on 15 December, 2017, 12:50:27 PM
FWIW, I don't think so. I believe he does use his name both as a nickname and for his boutique amp company. I don't think he had marketing or promotion in mind joining here.
Ok, but I take it that you do think that Atmasphere the HA member is indeed something to do with the company of the same name? Perhaps he could confirm that himself just so we don't jump to any erroneous conclusions.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 15 December, 2017, 01:09:57 PM
Ok, but I take it that you do think that Atmasphere the HA member is indeed something to do with the company of the same name?
Yep. He might be the founder of Atmasphere the company. I believe he posts under the name "Ralph" on audio-asylum.com:
https://cgi.audioasylum.com/cgi/mail.mpl?user_ID=12232
Perhaps he could confirm that himself just so we don't jump to any erroneous conclusions.
That would be nice, yes.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 15 December, 2017, 01:42:43 PM
That MP-1 preamp is made by a company called Atmasphere, which matches his HA user name. Does this mean that he is something to do with the company?
Yes Clive, Atmasphere = Ralph Karsten (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/qa-with-ralph-karsten-of-atma-sphere/).
He's the "silent vinyl" prankster. You should see his jokes about amplifier distortion at AA.  ;)

Was his agenda all along to promote his preamp?
No, highly doubtful.
He's an audiophile. They exist in their own little magical echo chamber. Believe me.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 15 December, 2017, 02:12:09 PM
Couldn't tolerate the Zoom recording and remastered it. If Atmasphere need the flac to impress your Asylum friends, send me a PM, price negotiable. ;)
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: antz on 15 December, 2017, 03:15:51 PM
Yes Clive, Atmasphere = Ralph Karsten (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/qa-with-ralph-karsten-of-atma-sphere/).
He's the "silent vinyl" prankster. You should see his jokes about amplifier distortion at AA.  ;)
There are some hilarious disconnects from reality on that link!

He thinks the difference between "high-end" and "Hi-fi" is that Hi-fi is all about money.
So "Hi-end" doesn't show a profit? Yeah ok, whatever he says.

And: if you have a Class A solid-state amp it will produce about the same heat for the same power (as valves/tubes).
Right, so the 707W of heater power (per channel) of the MA-3 is "about the same" as the zero-watt heaters in a 500W/ch solid-state amp? Ok, we'll just forget about that then, it doesn't count.

Actually, if he had a stereo pair of MA-3s running (1.414kW of heaters), he could turn the furnace fan off and not get 60Hz hum on his Zoom recording!

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 15 December, 2017, 03:36:52 PM
Actually, if he had a stereo pair of MA-3s running (1.414kW of heaters), he could turn the furnace fan off and not get 60Hz hum on his Zoom recording!
Don't be surprised when the 60Hz hum doesn't go away.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 15 December, 2017, 04:18:10 PM
FWIW, I don't think so. I believe he does use his name both as a nickname and for his boutique amp company. I don't think he had marketing or promotion in mind joining here.
Ok, but I take it that you do think that Atmasphere the HA member is indeed something to do with the company of the same name? Perhaps he could confirm that himself just so we don't jump to any erroneous conclusions.

By coincidence I looked up the user manual for the MP3 and google returned this link:

https://www.atma-sphere.com/Manuals/Atma-Sphere_MP-3_Owner's_Manual.pdf

(Executive summary: Please skip to the last line of the quoted  document)

Follow the link and on the second page you will find the following:

"You have purchased one of the world's finest preamplifiers and certainly one of
the most unique. It was over fifteen years in development and represents a
level of performance that others will be struggling to achieve for years to
come. At the time of this writing, it is the only fully balanced differential
vacuum tube design in the world and undoubtedly heralds a new breed. You do not
have to wait all you have to do is set the preamplifier up by following the
simple instructions in this manual.

Every part of the preamplifier has been extensively tested and engineered so
the product will perform flawlessly for years to come, with little if any
service.

Please read the manual carefully and follow the instructions closely. If you
have any questions, do not hesitate to contact your dealer or Atma-Sphere Music
Systems, Inc.. Here's to many years of happy listening!

Sincerely,

Ralph Karsten
"
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 15 December, 2017, 07:39:37 PM
Isn't that ironic?  The audiophool has a company in the Twin Cities and not far away either.

*throws brick through business window with a note attached saying "Stop committing fraud ya fool from the HydrogenAudio Forums called "Atmasphere""*
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: greynol on 15 December, 2017, 07:51:36 PM
Easy now!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 15 December, 2017, 08:37:59 PM
Lighten up Francis.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: mmrkaic on 15 December, 2017, 09:45:40 PM
Isn't that ironic?  The audiophool has a company in the Twin Cities and not far away either.

*throws brick through business window with a note attached saying "Stop committing fraud ya fool from the HydrogenAudio Forums called "Atmasphere""*

Dude, no violence, please. AJ and greynol know you, listen to them.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 15 December, 2017, 11:00:28 PM
Isn't that ironic?  The audiophool has a company in the Twin Cities and not far away either.

*throws brick through business window with a note attached saying "Stop committing fraud ya fool from the HydrogenAudio Forums called "Atmasphere""*

Checked Google street view on the address and there is a very good chance that he's been out of that address for some time.

Current tenants seem to be a home healthcare agency and a computer repair shop.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 15 December, 2017, 11:12:03 PM
Isn't that ironic?  The audiophool has a company in the Twin Cities and not far away either.

*throws brick through business window with a note attached saying "Stop committing fraud ya fool from the HydrogenAudio Forums called "Atmasphere""*

Dude, no violence, please. AJ and greynol know you, listen to them.

Nah, I wanted "Atamsphere" to crap his pants a little, so he wouldn't be so full of crap.  No point in violence.


Checked Google street view on the address and there is a very good chance that he's been out of that address for some time.

Current tenants seem to be a home healthcare agency and a computer repair shop.


Maybe the Attorney General Lori Swanson shut down his business for fraud?  Or most likely he didn't really get that much business.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: krabapple on 15 December, 2017, 11:53:55 PM
At the 2:34> mark I can hear ticks, pops and noise, including what sounds like talking or maybe a tv going in background? WTH?  :)

yup- forgot to turn off NPR. There is also one spot where a slight tick is heard when the furnace went on...

Wait, are you joshing, or seriously, you recorded acoustically, rather than digitizing the preamp out?  :o




Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 16 December, 2017, 12:05:22 AM
Isn't that ironic?  The audiophool has a company in the Twin Cities and not far away either.

*throws brick through business window with a note attached saying "Stop committing fraud ya fool from the HydrogenAudio Forums called "Atmasphere""*

Dude, no violence, please. AJ and greynol know you, listen to them.

Nah, I wanted "Atamsphere" to crap his pants a little, so he wouldn't be so full of crap.  No point in violence.


Checked Google street view on the address and there is a very good chance that he's been out of that address for some time.

Current tenants seem to be a home healthcare agency and a computer repair shop.


Maybe the Attorney General Lori Swanson shut down his business for fraud?  Or most likely he didn't really get that much business.

I've seen his preamps go for ca. $500 as used gear. Not really good residual value...

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Chibisteven on 16 December, 2017, 01:06:19 AM
I've seen his preamps go for ca. $500 as used gear. Not really good residual value...

I wouldn't even bother to use his preamps if they were free.  From the manual it looks like pure junk that doesn't last long.  I've left computers on 24/7 for years and only needed to replace fans or drives after a couple of years.  For something that's supposed to amplify sound it certainly doesn't last that long considering you have no moving parts other than a simple fan in some amplifiers.

If I can get something off ebay that still works 20 or 30 years after it was made or needs new capacitors to last another 20 or 30 years then that's fine to me.  Having to replace parts every 5 months is wasteful and makes me think that the product Atamsphere was selling is an unreliable piece of junk.  A product shouldn't need to be repaired every 5 months to continue working properly.  Probably went out of business because no one in their right mind wanted his stupid junk other than the idiots with the money to waste on it.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 16 December, 2017, 05:14:14 AM
https://youtu.be/t3TS-NFPdlU
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 16 December, 2017, 05:48:33 AM
Probably went out of business because no one in their right mind wanted his stupid junk other than the idiots with the money to waste on it.
Atma-Sphere is out of business? His website doesn't suggest that, though.

I quite like the retro design of the MA-2 and MA-3 amps, especially the old-style VU meters. Makes me wanna get a bunch and use them for a small module that displays CPU load or something.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 16 December, 2017, 06:54:50 AM
Wait, are you joshing, or seriously, you recorded acoustically, rather than digitizing the preamp out?  :o
That's how a HiFier rolls. SS Line inputs would degrade the sound far worse than that godawful sound captured by the mics we just heard. SS harshness and other melodrama, as any inmate will attest to. Plus you might have confused the greater amount of surface noise captured that way, with the real culprit, the Zoom preamp stability, not vinyl. You know, silent "vynil".
You can't afford a $100 cartridge, you wouldn't understand.

p.s. I did warn this was going to be funny. Very funny.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: includemeout on 16 December, 2017, 11:32:34 AM
p.s. I did warn this was going to be funny. Very funny.
Not just funny: pathetic.

And such ludicrous display as the one we've seen, makes me think this is not the last we'll hear from the placeboland inmates, as more are prone come here and try to erm, "prove" their point, so as to speak.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Audible! on 16 December, 2017, 09:44:00 PM
Dude did a needle drop with A Mic?

After all that prevarication?

Are you fscking kidding me???
Unreal.

 
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 16 December, 2017, 11:46:23 PM
Dude did a needle drop with A Mic?
Let's just assume, it was a really good microphone, for well over $100. Probably some nice Condenser mic, with tube mic amps and everything, providing all the warmth and flavor for maximum veil-lifting.

I felt kinda queasy when I saw that microphones are placed in front of speakers on a live set for the first time. Then someone pointed out to me, that the speaker an electric guitar is connected to, is considered part of the instrument, technically. So then it kinda all made sense, eventually. etc.

So, maybe we should consider his amp and speakers part of the entire exercise?
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: bennetng on 17 December, 2017, 01:51:24 AM
Let's just assume, it was a really good microphone, for well over $100. Probably some nice Condenser mic, with tube mic amps and everything, providing all the warmth and flavor for maximum veil-lifting.

I felt kinda queasy when I saw that microphones are placed in front of speakers on a live set for the first time. Then someone pointed out to me, that the speaker an electric guitar is connected to, is considered part of the instrument, technically. So then it kinda all made sense, eventually. etc.

So, maybe we should consider his amp and speakers part of the entire exercise?
You will fall into Atmasphere's trap when continue to talk about mic quality, speakers and other nonsense. in this (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115012.msg949378.html#msg949378) post I already pointed out a Zoom can sound better even when casually pointed to the speakers in a messy room without even using a tripod. If you are curious about the model that Atmasphere used in his flac, it is an H2n, as reported in his file's metadata:
A=PCM,F=44100,W=16,M=stereo,T=ZOOM Handy Recorder H2n XY STEREO

Now compare with my remaster in this (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,115012.msg949463.html#msg949463) post. Yes, a Zoom should at least sound like this. Find some random Vivaldi The Four Seasons-Summer recordings in Youtube, Spotify and so on and realize how strange Atmasphere's recording is. That was obviously an intentional attempt to hide his preamp's weakness.

Why use a mic? Simple. Low frequency hum? Furnace. Clicking sound? My wife was clipping her nails. Surface noise? It was me moving my ass on the sofa. You have infinite excuses when you record with a mic.
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Paul_ 2012 on 17 December, 2017, 04:59:32 AM
Can anyone help me set this thing up I'm getting some pops, crackles and the occasional screech...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMCUyBI03ro
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on 17 December, 2017, 06:57:04 AM
Dude did a needle drop with A Mic?
Let's just assume, it was a really good microphone, for well over $100. Probably some nice Condenser mic, with tube mic amps and everything, providing all the warmth and flavor for maximum veil-lifting.

I felt kinda queasy when I saw that microphones are placed in front of speakers on a live set for the first time. Then someone pointed out to me, that the speaker an electric guitar is connected to, is considered part of the instrument, technically. So then it kinda all made sense, eventually. etc.

So, maybe we should consider his amp and speakers part of the entire exercise?


No, no, no, no!  I learned the extreme value of electrical signal connections over using mics and acoustical connections that  learned in 7th grade AV service.

The acoustic connection and using even the best mic and preamp in the universe brings in the 5,000 pound gorilla that you didn't even mention - room acoustics. Room acoustics and other spurious noises are clearly audible in his recording. Didn't you hear them?

Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: ajinfla on 17 December, 2017, 07:22:33 AM
Can anyone help me set this thing up I'm getting some pops, crackles and the occasional screech...........
Obviously all due to a highly unstable preamp.

My cats would correct all those symptoms rather quickly
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 17 December, 2017, 08:00:43 AM
You will fall into Atmasphere's trap when continue to talk about mic quality, speakers and other nonsense.
Dude, I was making a joke...

Why use a mic? Simple. Low frequency hum? Furnace. Clicking sound? My wife was clipping her nails. Surface noise? It was me moving my ass on the sofa. You have infinite excuses when you record with a mic.
Well, ok, that's really low, though. He'd better use an anechoic chamber and a reference mic for that, but oh well...

The Zoom recorders are nice recorders and all, but they have their drawbacks. I have a Zoom H1 and it's a nice recorder when either you attach another microphone, like a lapel mic to it, or you use it on a tripod. The case is not rattly, but kinda squeaky, I guess. when holding it in your hand, the plastic makes noises no matter how careful you are. But on a tripod using the internal mics, or using it as a recorder pack with an external mic, it's pretty good. Also, really good battery life!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 17 December, 2017, 08:18:39 AM
I finally found the video I wanted Ralph to watch, a couple posts back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: antz on 17 December, 2017, 09:25:37 AM
I finally found the video I wanted Ralph to watch, a couple posts back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM
The guy markets valve (tube) equipment based on the circlotron, 85-ish year-old technology and horrendously inefficient. Quite how much of that video do you think he's going to follow? Think in terms of lost causes!
Title: Re: A day of vinyl -- a reminder of inferior technology
Post by: polemon on 17 December, 2017, 11:09:56 AM
The guy markets valve (tube) equipment based on the circlotron, 85-ish year-old technology and horrendously inefficient. Quite how much of that video do you think he's going to follow? Think in terms of lost causes!
Well, I cannot control how much of that is he gonna add to his knowledge about things. You see, the video more or less uses audio as means of getting a point across about something that is valid for the entirety of signal processing. But I'll happily provide information when I have something to share, notwithstanding whether he's willing to listen or just disregards that, etc.

I don't think that just because he shills his old tech, doesn't mean he can learn about these things, etc. In my industry we have lots of older people learning new things about engineering all the time, sometimes this means that how things were done up to that point are now considered sub-par or even plainly wrong. That's progress. Sometimes this is just down to misunderstanding, or a lack of a certain little piece of knowledge etc., the video kinda hints at that with how the sample-and-hold display is just a representation of something quite different, etc. Sometimes little things such as that are the reason for an entire huge blob of misunderstanding and arguing. This is especially true for the "bubble press", as I like to call them. They claim to be authoritative in a field in which they simply don't have all the information necessary to form an educated opinion, etc.