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CD-R and Audio Hardware => CUETools => Topic started by: --I-- on 2017-10-02 18:00:52

Title: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: --I-- on 2017-10-02 18:00:52
I use a rip of a major CD release in this example, CUETools 2.1.5 log:

Code: [Select]
[CTDB TOCID: CvjXmcnRHDX9zFeVGzOhrlu.oqA-] found.
Track | CTDB Status
  1   | (  0/194) No match
  2   | (  0/194) No match
  3   | (  0/194) No match
  4   | (  0/194) No match
  5   | (  0/194) No match
  6   | (  0/194) No match
  7   | (  0/194) No match
  8   | (  0/194) No match
  9   | (  0/194) No match
 10   | (  0/194) No match
 11   | (  0/194) No match
 12   | (  0/194) No match
 13   | (  0/194) No match
 14   | (  0/194) No match

Code: [Select]
[AccurateRip ID: 00187cbf-01088eeb-bc0c160e] found.
Track   [  CRC   |   V2   ] Status
 01     [151de090|30caa53e] (00+00/45) No match
 02     [53b0b4b6|3835ee8e] (00+00/45) No match
 03     [6b141806|496884d2] (00+00/45) No match
 04     [54e14f98|22133b56] (00+00/45) No match
 05     [67c0b9db|0ae0c4b2] (00+00/45) No match
 06     [61e4bc87|3ff4cbee] (00+00/45) No match
 07     [8faa5e2b|95c08cd6] (00+00/45) No match
 08     [7c7704a2|ba82b0cc] (00+00/45) No match
 09     [c21064e8|17d4865e] (00+00/45) No match
 10     [e5340313|012f83f5] (00+00/45) No match

I'm assuming there are no alternative versions in existence. Is this rip certainly inaccurate as there are so many results in the databases?
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: NetRanger on 2017-10-02 18:04:04
No. Your results can depend on that the CD you rip is a different pressing and it's not in the CT/AR databases yet
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-02 18:54:31
Different pressings affect AR database, not CT database.
If the CD is found in the cuetools database, with 194 results!, and all tracks show no match, obviously those files have been modified after ripping. If it's downloaded from a web site, it's probably watermarking. If it's a download from some other site, it can be anything.
The probability of ripping an original CD yourself, and get that result is null.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: --I-- on 2017-10-02 19:25:17
Different pressings affect AR database, not CT database.
If the CD is found in the cuetools database, with 194 results!, and all tracks show no match, obviously those files have been modified after ripping. If it's downloaded from a web site, it's probably watermarking. If it's a download from some other site, it can be anything.
The probability of ripping an original CD yourself, and get that result is null.
The album indeed has been downloaded from the web.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-02 20:15:38
In the thread title question, you're asking about a possible "inaccurate rip". But that result show that the files have been modified after the ripping. The ripping itself could have been perfect, not that it matters now.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: shaboo on 2017-10-04 18:21:19
Different pressings affect AR database, not CT database.
If the CD is found in the cuetools database, with 194 results!, and all tracks show no match, obviously those files have been modified after ripping. If it's downloaded from a web site, it's probably watermarking. If it's a download from some other site, it can be anything.
The probability of ripping an original CD yourself, and get that result is null.
The album indeed has been downloaded from the web.
Using ARDB/CTDB verification on downloaded files only makes sense when you can be 100% sure that it's actually an unmodified CD rip.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-04 19:22:56
Different pressings affect AR database, not CT database.
If the CD is found in the cuetools database, with 194 results!, and all tracks show no match, obviously those files have been modified after ripping. If it's downloaded from a web site, it's probably watermarking. If it's a download from some other site, it can be anything.
The probability of ripping an original CD yourself, and get that result is null.
The album indeed has been downloaded from the web.
Using ARDB/CTDB verification on downloaded files only makes sense when you can be 100% sure that it's actually an unmodified CD rip.

That doesn't make much sense.
The only way of knowing that the files have not been modified is verifying them. How can you possibly know that the files have not been modified before that?
If cuetools gives "accurately ripped" on all tracks, then you know those files are from a perfect rip of a CD.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: JunkieXL on 2017-10-05 17:49:59
The only way to verify an accurate rip on downloaded content is by looking at the EAC log file that you downloaded with the music.

You cannot recreate a bit for bit identical copy of the original CD using downloaded content.  Even if you load it as an image file and rip from a virtual drive, there will be differences.

Therefore....there is no way to take the downloaded content and compare it to rips made off of the original CD.

This entire discussion is pointless once you factor that in.
JXL

If you don't believe me.... Rip a CD and verify it as accurate.  Then burn the resulting files to a CDr... even with perfect read and write offsets entered... the resulting CDr will have bit differences from the original CD.  Load it as an image and do the same thing.  There will be differences.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-05 18:03:02
The only way to verify an accurate rip on downloaded content is by looking at the EAC log file that you downloaded with the music.

You cannot recreate a bit for bit identical copy of the original CD using downloaded content.  Even if you load it as an image file and rip from a virtual drive, there will be differences.

Therefore....there is no way to take the downloaded content and compare it to rips made off of the original CD.

This entire discussion is pointless once you factor that in.
JXL

Everything you say is false, and I mean everything.

Who says that you download a log file?
"The only way to verify an accurate rip on downloaded content is by looking at the EAC log file that you downloaded with the music."
That's just idiotic. Then, what do you think cuetools verification function does? Nothing? It's just a fraud?

Of course you can recreate a CD, what "differences" are you talking about?
If you download a FLAC file, and when you verify it shows "accurately ripped", there will be zero differences.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Wombat on 2017-10-05 18:04:32
I repaired more than one download with CUEtools i purchased at bandcamp.
Artists over there obviously offer files they ripped themself from former cd releases including non corrected offsets and ripping errors. CUEtools nicely identifies them without any cue or log.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: JunkieXL on 2017-10-05 18:10:16
The only way to verify an accurate rip on downloaded content is by looking at the EAC log file that you downloaded with the music.

You cannot recreate a bit for bit identical copy of the original CD using downloaded content.  Even if you load it as an image file and rip from a virtual drive, there will be differences.

Therefore....there is no way to take the downloaded content and compare it to rips made off of the original CD.

This entire discussion is pointless once you factor that in.
JXL

Everything you say is false, and I mean everything.

Who says that you download a log file?
"The only way to verify an accurate rip on downloaded content is by looking at the EAC log file that you downloaded with the music."
That's just idiotic. Then, what do you think cuetools verification function does? Nothing? It's just a fraud?

Of course you can recreate a CD, what "differences" are you talking about?
If you download a FLAC file, and when you verify it shows "accurately ripped", there will be zero differences.

Have you ever burned a CDr from accurately ripped lossless content and then tried to rip the resulting CDr to see if it was accurate?  I have...

Once you actually test the BS you are spouting, then you can post again.
Thanks... bye.
JXL
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Case on 2017-10-05 18:24:13
Have you ever burned a CDr from accurately ripped lossless content and then tried to rip the resulting CDr to see if it was accurate?
I used to do that a lot when I was younger. The burned contents are absolutely bit-identical if you use the correct write offset with your drive. Only potential difference one might encounter is if the clipped milliseconds of audio weren't silence. I don't think I had any such discs.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-05 18:26:51
Good bye to you too!

Of course I've burn CD-Rs, or burn to image and then mount the image with virtual drives and rip it again. And the result is again "accurately ripped", no "diferences" whatsoever.

But that's not the question, because when cuetools says it's accurate, you don't need to burn it and rip it again, that's the whole point of cuetools verification !!!!
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-06 11:06:39
Oh, the bleeding obvious once more: The CUETools database accepts uploads from files, and not only upon ripping. If you downloaded the file - legally or not - you have no guarantee that a match is not to a copy of the file. Thus, the observation that it matches a CTDB entry verifies nothing about the original rip (if there ever was any original rip!). 
And multiple exclamation marks verify something completely different. (https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Multiple_exclamation_marks)

The AR database tries to guard against this (not the "!!!!") by accepting submissions only upon ripping, but it cannot guard against a burned CD-ROM being ripped and on a different computer and then compared to the rip it was burned from.

I repaired more than one download with CUEtools i purchased at bandcamp.
Artists over there obviously offer files they ripped themself from former cd releases including non corrected offsets and ripping errors. CUEtools nicely identifies them without any cue or log.
Yeah, in some way it is a good sign when there is actually something to repair; most likely your Bandcamp purchase can be compared to a CD, and that the artist did not decode a lossy for upload.
I have never got from Bandcamp any FLAC with AccurateRip tags or log tags though - but this purchase (http://www.dragcity.com/products/advaitic-songs) had such.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-06 11:48:31
Nice avatar !!!!

In the first post of the thread, there are 194 entries on the database. And the result is "no match". You can infer from that that the files have been modified after the ripping.

As for if the coutools verification tool is worthless or not, I disagree.

"The CUETools database accepts uploads from files, and not only upon ripping"
That's just not true. If you verify a file, not present in cuetools database, and has two or more accurate result in AR database, then it's added to cuetools database, but only once. Further verifications won't add more results to CT database.
You can only add more entries ripping it, being CD-R or virtual, ripping in secure mode. Burst mode doesn't add entries.
So you are saying that the verification is wortless because maybe some people is ripping CD-Rs or virtual images, originated from downloaded files, in secure mode, just for the sake of it. That's just against probability, common sense, and any interest on what's actually real, just for the sake of trolling.




Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-06 14:25:37
In the first post of the thread, there are 194 entries on the database. And the result is "no match". You can infer from that that the files have been modified after the ripping.
The files need not ever have been on CD. There need not be any "after the ripping".

As for if the coutools verification tool is worthless or not, I
... build a strawman to disagree with. "worthless" is your word, not mine.

"The CUETools database accepts uploads from files, and not only upon ripping"
That's just not true. If you verify a file, not present in cuetools database, and has two or more accurate result in AR database, then it's added to cuetools database, but only once.
"but only once"?  Right. If I claim that you were born, would you then reply "just not true" because you were only born once? You do not even contradict what you claim is "not true", you support it.

you are saying that the verification is wortless
I did not say "wortless" without the "h" either. Stop lying.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-06 14:56:11
"The files need not ever have been on CD. There need not be any "after the ripping". "
That's not true.
There are 194 entries in the database. If there's no CD, there would be zero entries.
If you try to verify a file, and it's not in both databases, then nothing is added to the database.
If you try to verify a file, and there are no entries in the CT database, but there are at least two accurate entries in the AR database, then one entry is added to the CT database. But that's because there were several entries, from CD rips, to the AR database. So in fact there was a CD rip.
But, from the 194 entries, only 1, at most, can be from a non CD rip, all the rest, the 193, must come from CD rips. Being that original or CD-R.

It makes no sense that some people are burning to CD-R and then rip that CD-R to obtain just a duplicate of the file they already have. At least not 193 people, that just absurd.

The original question was about if you can infer something about the result of cuetools verification from that example. And you say that no, you can't. When in fact you can infer quite a lot. So you are implying that cuetools can not do things that it can do.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Wombat on 2017-10-06 15:03:23
Before some speculate on we should ask the OP if he bought that one? If so i don't see his rip made it into the database.
http://db.cuetools.net/?tocid=CvjXmcnRHDX9zFeVGzOhrlu.oqA-
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-06 18:19:58
"The files need not ever have been on CD. There need not be any "after the ripping". "
That's not true.
There are 194 entries in the database. If there's no CD, there would be zero entries.

And so all files must be from the CD - and not the CD have been created from a file? If you read this thread, you may even notice that "someone" mentioned that the file may have been watermarked. That "someone" has forgotten about this - most likely "forgotten" on purpose, out of dishonesty.

Will that "someone" now claim that record labels - who possess files from which the CDs are created - rip a CD in order to supply to online vendors?


And you say that no, you can't.

Liar.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-06 19:29:19
Of course you can create a CD from a file. But, if you actually read what I posted, the probability of 193 people doing that and ripping that CD-R, is null. So yes, it must be from an original CD.

Do you mean me, by someone forgetting watermarking? What has that to do with anything?

The result of the first post is in fact pretty common, but for stuff downloaded from the web, not for rips that you made. The fact that the database identify the files as a CD rip, is because it's in fact a CD rip, go figure! And the fact that all tracks show "no match", is not due to a bad rip, because as I said, you don't find such a result ripping a CD, but due to a later manipulation of the files.
This manipulation can be anything, so it's just a guess work.
In the case of a commercial download, with such a result (identified as a CD rip by the database and with "no match" in all tracks), the guess can be about a watermarking, of course. I don't know shit about the suply line of any vendor.
Anyway, I've downloaded the file and I've obtained the same result. So it can be anything.

As for you trolling, you said :
"Oh, the bleeding obvious once more: The CUETools database accepts uploads from files, and not only upon ripping. If you downloaded the file - legally or not - you have no guarantee that a match is not to a copy of the file. Thus, the observation that it matches a CTDB entry verifies nothing about the original rip (if there ever was any original rip!). "
And that's just a lie. Cuetools doesn't accept uploads from files, as I said before.

Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Rollin on 2017-10-07 11:07:17
Artists over there obviously offer files they ripped themself from former cd releases including non corrected offsets and ripping errors. CUEtools nicely identifies them without any cue or log.
Are you sure it wasn't other way around: CD was created and pressed from files, that artist has, so CD contains pressing errors and offset?
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-07 11:48:42
But, if you actually read what I posted
Yes I read what you posted. I read your false claims, and I read how you consistently pull a straw man strategy - not only towards myself - and outright lie about what others say.

the probability of 193 people doing that and ripping that CD-R, is null. So yes, it must be from an original CD.
Wrong. It could be generated from the files that were used to create the CD. Files sent (I) to the mastering plant for pressing - and (II) through watermarking and then to online vendors. Files (II) need not have been on a CD ever.
I also have different masterings with precisely the same CDTOC. I have CDs that have the same CDTOC, but differ in the LSB throughout the disc - most likely, a second pressing with dither applied once more, not only offset.

Do you mean me, by someone forgetting watermarking? What has that to do with anything?
That you should have have been aware that files from online vendors need not have been on CD and thus need not have been ripped ever, in which case it is bollocks to talk about post-rip manipulations.

The fact that the database identify the files as a CD rip, is because it's in fact a CD rip, go figure!
It is because lengths match those of a CD. That does not mean the files were ever on a CD. In this case, the artist released is as download before the CD was out. As "super digital edition", whatever that means. It could very well be that dither or peak-normalization was applied when the files were sent to CD mastering, what do you know about that?

And the fact that all tracks show "no match", is not due to a bad rip, because as I said, you don't find such a result ripping a CD, but due to a later manipulation of the files.
It could be due to "manipulation" before pressing.

I don't know shit about
things you are all to big-mouthed about.

just a lie. Cuetools doesn't accept uploads from files, as I said before.
CUETools has reported to have accepted quite a few submissions of mine, all from files.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-07 12:01:47
The solution is very simple.

Show me how can you create an entry in the cuetools database using only files. Select some FLAC tracks from different CDs, like a mixtape, and then show me the steps to generate an entry in the database. Of course, without burning to CD-R.

I'm all for science. Show me how can you do something that I don't think can be done.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-07 12:46:43
from different CDs, like a mixtape

Again you are pulling out irrelevant nonsense. Obviously deliberately.

I'm all for science.

Then why do you keep on lying so consistently?
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-07 12:57:04
You're the one lying. You said that cuetools database accepts entries from files, and not just CD rips.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Wombat on 2017-10-07 14:38:57
Are you sure it wasn't other way around: CD was created and pressed from files, that artist has, so CD contains pressing errors and offset?
I listen to the differences. The only obvious clicks that sounded like a typical ripping error i reported to the artist. He replaced the file witth a version fitting the AR db.
The converstaion was sent from his iphone reading the signature. Isn't the typical musican maybe itunes ripper and is happy alone to have found the alac button ;)
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-07 17:42:04
You're the one lying. You said that cuetools database accepts entries from files, and not just CD rips.
http://db.cuetools.net/?tocid=Uj7SuPWVKcxWNxozdm3Cdd6tTBc- is from my files.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-07 19:42:22
You're the one lying. You said that cuetools database accepts entries from files, and not just CD rips.
http://db.cuetools.net/?tocid=Uj7SuPWVKcxWNxozdm3Cdd6tTBc- is from my files.

The idea of an experiment is that it can be repeated by other people, to obtain the same results.
I can not know how you have obtained that entry, you have not said it. You just say "is from my files". I don't think your word can be considered a scientific proof of anything.
What software did you use? What steps did you follow?
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-08 18:02:08
https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,79882.msg704313.html#msg704313

"The only way to submit data that is not in AR database is to rip a CD using a ripper."
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Pepzhez on 2017-10-09 12:47:34
If I may return to the (original) topic at hand, I have encountered this curious problem when I rediscovered some rips I had made well over a decade ago. These rips were made using xACT, an ancient ripping utility for Mac OS.  I ran these rips through CUETools to check their integrity and, just as I expected, every single one of them was shown to have zero matches for both AccurateRip and the CTDB.

Why did I expect this result? Because I know that xACT had a coding flaw that caused the channels to be swapped when its output was set to AIFF. (It did not do this if output was set to WAV; the developer's "fix" for this was to do simply do away with the AIFF option altogether.) Having foobar2000 rewrite the FLACs with channels reversed restored the rips, which AR and CTDB happily confirm.

I also remember that there were a few drives back then that were known to swap audio channels. Mind, these were early days for DAE,

Enough of the historical footnote lesson. My point is that the OP may want to try reversing the channels and check the results again with CUETools.

Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Wombat on 2017-10-09 15:36:51
What about the obvious way to simply write a polite email to the artists or service that offers the files? This release looks like it comes directly from the artists homepage. Some artists are pretty good at such things.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-10 14:24:27
"The only way to submit data that is not in AR database is to rip a CD using a ripper."
I wonder whether you still deny that submissions may indeed come from files, and still will keep calling it a lie.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-10 20:54:56
Wow!!!!
Just, wow!!!!
So, you're saying that burning the file to CD-R, and then ripping the CD-R, doesn't count as CD rip?
Wow!!!
And, by "submission may indeed come from files", you mean burning the files to CD and then ripping the CD?
And that you meant that all along?
What a piece of troll.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-10 22:07:01
Multiple exclamation marks ... and then damn lies, and again, more multiple exclamation marks - and then again, your strawman dishonesty.

Are you seriously denying that a digital album delivered as files, are files if track lengths correspond to ones in a CD TOC, which is the case at hand, for the OP's downloads?
Do you seriously insist that the digital album - that carries a signal that has never ever been on a CD nor a CD-R - is a "CD rip" and not a "file"?

Do you seriously want the reader to believe that this is your honest opinion?
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: greynol on 2017-10-10 22:17:14
If you don't believe me.... Rip a CD and verify it as accurate.  Then burn the resulting files to a CDr... even with perfect read and write offsets entered... the resulting CDr will have bit differences from the original CD.  Load it as an image and do the same thing.  There will be differences.
I have a reader that can overread with an applied offset and a burner that can overwrite with an applied offset.

Guess what that means...
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: greynol on 2017-10-10 22:20:00
Different pressings affect AR database, not CT database.
If the CD is found in the cuetools database, with 194 results!, and all tracks show no match, obviously those files have been modified after ripping. If it's downloaded from a web site, it's probably watermarking. If it's a download from some other site, it can be anything.
The probability of ripping an original CD yourself, and get that result is null.
The album indeed has been downloaded from the web.
Poor baby.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-10 23:01:09
I've downloaded the album, obtaining the same results: same CTDB TOCID, "no match" in all tracks.
And by that I mean that I've downloaded using a torrent. I think OP means by "downloaded from the web" downloaded with a torrent too. Anyway he can clarify this point.
If the database have 194 entries, those entries are from 194 CD rips. As I said, it's not probable at all that 194 people have burn to CD-R and then rip that CD-R. So that entry in the database comes from a physical CD.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-11 00:03:43
Different pressings affect AR database, not CT database.
If the CD is found in the cuetools database, with 194 results!, and all tracks show no match, obviously those files have been modified after ripping. If it's downloaded from a web site, it's probably watermarking. If it's a download from some other site, it can be anything.
The probability of ripping an original CD yourself, and get that result is null.
The album indeed has been downloaded from the web.
Poor baby.

If there are 194 entries in the database, there must be a CD release, because those entries come from CD rips.
This doesn't mean that there's not a digital release too. There can be both.

If OP has downloaded the commercial digital release, and he has obtained the results shown in the first post, it means that the CD release and the digital release are different. These differences can be anything, watermarking, a different mastering or something else.
But, I've downloaded the album without paying for it, and the verification produces identical results, so I guess that he just downloaded the album that way too.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-11 10:54:46
If there are two CD releases of the same album, with the same TOC, the difference can not be watermarking, but a different remaster.
I guess both CDs will generate their own entries in the database.
Example: If 40 people rip CD A, and 20 people rip CD B, and then you verify the ripped files of CD B, the result will be "(20/60) accurately ripped", and not "(0/40) no match".

If there are two releases, one a CD and the other a digital download only release, with the same TOC, if the digital release is watermarked, if you verify the digital release, the result will be no match to all tracks, like OP example.
I think the confussion comes because I shouldn't have defined the files as "CD-rip files" but just as "CD release files". The files are the same, but the wording is misleading.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: greynol on 2017-10-11 15:50:04
The confusion comes because people are pretending to know more than they really do about the subject at hand.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: JunkieXL on 2017-10-11 16:29:44
If you don't believe me.... Rip a CD and verify it as accurate.  Then burn the resulting files to a CDr... even with perfect read and write offsets entered... the resulting CDr will have bit differences from the original CD.  Load it as an image and do the same thing.  There will be differences.
I have a reader that can overread with an applied offset and a burner that can overwrite with an applied offset.

Guess what that means...
I was wrong.  Sorry for the misinformation.
JXL
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-11 17:55:03
There are valid reasons why CUETools was designed to accept submissions from files, with no AccurateRip confidence (only an AccurateRip ID match) (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,79882.msg697686.html#msg697686).
It does have its consequences, for example if a [watermarked lossless download with the same TOC | really bad rip or defective-by-design | rip with channels reversed] is spread on the web and the downloaders try to retro-verify them as rips.
In such cases, CUETools may deliver scores that are not "trustworthy" (depending on what you mean by that). That is not to say that CUETools is wort(h)less - nobody said that but Shostakovich's strawman - but that there are certain things that CUETools by design will not do, and that may impair the information it returns.

Some of these consequences are more of a concern to pirates than to anyone else, which might very well be a reason why they were not given high priority. (Passing over unreliable information on the quality of someone's illicit download, is hardly a mortal sin.)
Sometimes, they might be a nuissance to myself; is that score of 1 my submission, or do I have a verified good rip?
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-11 18:07:36
As I said before, you can add a submission to CT database (only the first one) if there is no entry before, if there are at least two accurate submissions in AR database. . So a confidence of two is needed.

I didn't say that the verification is worthless. I said that, if the database accepted entries that are not from CD rips, it would be flawed. But that's not the case.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-11 20:14:16
The point of posting a link to a forum post, is to paraphrase something posting there. But, what you say has nothing to do with what the linked post says.

The post linked says:
"Discs don't have to pass AR before being added to the CTDB, AR is used only as a kind of proof that there is a physical CD with such content when adding with CUETools.
CD Rippers can add CDs to CTDB even if AR doesn't know them. There is already a number of CDs in database submitted by CUERipper, some of them have confidence 1 - that means they didn't pass AR check or weren't found in AR."

"Discs don't have to pass AR before being added to the CTDB, AR is used only as a kind of proof that there is a physical CD with such content when adding with CUETools." means that you can add a submission to Cuetools database, without the need of a preexisting AR entry of the same CD. And you get this result ripping the CD in secure mode with cueripper. This doesn't mean that you can add a submission verifying a file with cuetools without confidence in the AR database. Those are different things!
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-12 09:33:01
So when CUERipper has the physical CD and is ripping from the physical CD, then - and only then - does it look up AR to find proof that the physical CD it is already ripping, does in fact exist. Seriously?
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-12 11:09:42
I really don't know if you're trolling now, maybe you genuinely don't understand it.

No, of course it doesn't mean that.

Let's say you have a CD that doesn't have any submission in any database, not in CT neither in AR databases. You can generate a submission to the cuetools database, but the only way is ripping the CD in secure mode with cueripper. You won't generate any submission to the AR database. This is what "Discs don't have to pass AR before being added to the CTDB" means.

If a CD has at least two submissions to the AR database, and none in the CT database, then you can generate a submisson in the CT database verifying the CD ripped files with cuetools. This will generate one submission, the first one. Later submissions could only be added ripping CDs. But cuetools permits this, because the fact that there're already two submissions at least in the AR database, proves that a CD exists. This is what "AR is used only as a kind of proof that there is a physical CD with such content when adding with CUETools." means.

If there are no entries in the AR database, or only one, the verification won't add any submission to the CT database. Only ripping a CD, in secure mode, will add submissions. This is what "The only way to submit data that is not in AR database is to rip a CD using a ripper." means.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Porcus on 2017-10-12 12:43:33
I really don't know if you're trolling now, maybe you genuinely don't understand it.

No, of course it doesn't mean that.

Because that is what you wrote. And from everything else you have been writing here (false "files have been modified after the ripping" claims for downloads that need not ever have been on CD; false "worthless"/"wortless" strawman that nobody ever said but you; claiming that the number of hits correspond to the number of physical CDs; denying that a "file" is a "file") - there is no "of course".
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: Shostakovich on 2017-10-12 14:28:43
How cuetools database works is essential to understand the info of the verification.

If the database accepted submissions that are not from a CD, it would be flawed. So it's essential to make clear that that's not the case.
Cuetools doesn't have submissions if there's not a CD. Period.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: shaboo on 2017-10-14 12:32:08
I really don't know if you're trolling now, maybe you genuinely don't understand it.

No, of course it doesn't mean that.

Because that is what you wrote. And from everything else you have been writing here (false "files have been modified after the ripping" claims for downloads that need not ever have been on CD; false "worthless"/"wortless" strawman that nobody ever said but you; claiming that the number of hits correspond to the number of physical CDs; denying that a "file" is a "file") - there is no "of course".
My God, Porcus, what's so difficult to understand about this??!!

Ripping (CUERipper) = submission + verification
Verifying (CUETools) = verification only

And of course this makes perfect sense (to anyone but you), because CTDB is a database of CD rips and not a database of random junk (including downloaded or otherwise obtained files of unknown origin).

Of course submissions are also accepted from ripped CD-Rs, because ripping programs can't tell the difference between CD and CD-R, but to call this "submissions are accepted from files" is just misleading nonsense.
Title: Re: Does "no match" from CUETools and AccurateRip databases confirm inaccurate rip?
Post by: greynol on 2017-10-14 13:28:13
CTDB probably contains more submissions from CUETools than it does from CUERipper.

I just love how we have experts who don't know the history let alone the basics.

That said, safeguards were in place in an attempt to restrict submissions to actual verified rips.
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