Hi,
I currently have my entire collection in wavpack at the moment. Is there any reason i shouldn't transcode them all to ape? I noticed it compresses better, and my space is rather limited. thanks guys!
Jonathan
you might wanna take a look at that if you wanna decide whether you should encode your files to APE.
edit: also if you want to, you could use WavPack's optimizing switches to acheive a higher compression ratio. although the decoding will probably be slower than before.
I suggest you keep your WavPack files, you could try to recompress them using the optimized switches if you want better compression ratios. IMO Monkey's has been losing steam scince a while back and support in foobar is now available separately, this could be a sign that Monkey's is going the way of MusePack.
I suggest you keep your WavPack files, you could try to recompress them using the optimized switches if you want better compression ratios. IMO Monkey's has been losing steam scince a while back and support in foobar is now available separately, this could be a sign that Monkey's is going the way of MusePack.
IMO its much harder to kill a lossless format and there has been some development by Matt this year. MA is still very efficient, although its now lagging in features.
Hi,
I currently have my entire collection in wavpack at the moment. Is there any reason i shouldn't transcode them all to ape? I noticed it compresses better, and my space is rather limited. thanks guys!
Jonathan
Did you work out exactly how much space you will gain by doing all this ? It might just be easier to add more storage.
[deleted]
If higher compression is your goal why not going the OptimFROG way instead?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=371901 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=42076&view=findpost&p=371901)
EDIT: Corrected link.
If higher compression is your goal why not going the OptimFROG way instead?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=371901 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=42076&view=findpost&p=371901)
EDIT: Corrected link.
Indeed, I personally use --md5 -mode highnew --experimental for my backup needs.
If higher compression is your goal why not going the OptimFROG way instead?
Hm, I recently went the other way round (from .ofr to .wv).
For about 10 % more storage I get more than 20 times the
encoding & decoding speed. The CPU fan now no longer howls when I play
files on the machine.
Another pro is the support out-of the-box for WavPack in foobar2000 9.x
Edit: Wrong Quote
Edit: Content correction
I used to reencode all my APE files from pre 3.99 versions to 3.99 high since at this compression level seeking in foobar2000 was instantaniously whereas older versions of MA gave me the same instantanious seeking only at lower compression rates.
Now I've switched to WavPack 4.31 -h, mostly for the gain in decompression speed (I do transcode a lot from my lossless files) and it's brighter future. As soon as 4.4x is final and tested I will experiment with it's new switches a little and then convert everything to this new version if it's worth it.
EDIT: spelling
Hi,
I currently have my entire collection in wavpack at the moment. Is there any reason i shouldn't transcode them all to ape? I noticed it compresses better, and my space is rather limited. thanks guys!
Jonathan
I did a small test yesterday with one track (punk rock).
Config : Athlon XP 2000+ - 512 MB
Monkey's Audio 3.99(encoding speed) (compression) (decoding speed)
* fast : 21.2x 74.6% 15.3x
* normal : 18.6x 73.8% 14.2x
* high : 17.4x 73.6% 13x
* extra high : 11.2x 73.3% 9.7x
* insane : 5.1x 73.2% 5x
WavPack 4.31(encoding speed) (compression)(decoding speed)
* -f : 27x 76.7% 18x
* -fx : 4.7x 75.9% 18x
* (default) : 22.6x 75.2% 17.3x
* -x : 2.7x 74.8% 17.3x
* -h : 15.3x 74.3% 15.9x
* -hx : 1.2x 74.3% 15.9x
As you can see, with this track, Monkey's Audio is slower than WavPack (without -x switch) with both encoding and decoding speed, but MA achieves very better compression ratios, so if your goal is compression, go with Monkey's Audio (or maybe Optim Frog if you don't care about encoding and decoding speed). WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, error handling, hybrid mode..). And remember WavPack is still actively developed (4.4b2 has just been released this month and the -x switch is faster).
When I was in the lossless game I was pleaased to use Monkey extra high for archiving purposes because of the better compression ratio compared to FLAC and wavPack.
To me speed even with extra high was well in the acceptable range (mobile Athlon 2400+, 512 MB).
If speed counts sure high mode (or lower) is the better way to go.
I wouldn't care about Monkey's further development as long as I get access to my archive. Worst case to me would be if I couldn't decode my chosen codec from within foobar. But even in this case I can still transcode with the older version before using the new one (or decide not to use the new one).
Another question is whether it's worth reencoding. The better compression ratio is not neglegible, but on the other hand it's not that much better that it were worth the pain to me. I'd rather stick with what I got, but continue with Monkey for further encodings.
As disc space seems to be your problem extremely high bitrate wavPack lossy might be an alternative.
If you use something like 512 kbps with wavPack lossy, well it's not exactly lossless, but should be so close that IMO it's worth taking into account. Compression ratio is remarkably better than that of Monkey or any other lossless codec in the vast majority of music.
... WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, ...
The replay gain APE v.2 tags are identical with both formats. Player programs can use these tags in the same way or do you mean something else?
... error handling ...
I like that a lossless decoder does not allow any errors. Then I can be sure that the decoded files are fine. A file error is always a serious problem either in HW or SW and should be dealt immediately. I know a couple of cases when erroneous Monkey's Audio playback has been a symptom of a bad memory chip or too tight BIOS settings that cause random memory errors.
I know a couple of cases when erroneous Monkey's Audio playback has been a symptom of a bad memory chip or too tight BIOS settings that cause random memory errors.
This is why I decode and compare an ape file before blowing away the original wave, though I have yet to see a problem with 3.99 on my system. I've also transcoded many flacs to apes for a considerable savings in disc space. When doing this I'll check the checksum of the decompressed ape with that stored in the flac's metadata. With a batch file, md5sum, sox and the build of mac.exe that handles piping, this goes pretty quickly. I use the High setting, btw. IMO anything higher is too slow for such a minimal gain in compression.
... WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, ...
The replay gain APE v.2 tags are identical with both formats. Player programs can use these tags in the same way or do you mean something else?
I don't think Monkey's Audio supports RG tags. According to Wikipedia (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lossless_comparison#APE_CONS), it doesn't. If you think it does, just tell me how tu use it.
...drum roll...
A file error is always a serious problem either in HW or SW and should be dealt immediately.
Wrong. It could also be the result of a CD scratch, or network problems, or several other issues. In that aspect, a format with error robustness is much better. If your Monkey's Audio file has one error, often the entire track from that point is lost. If it is a wavpack file, the decoding goes on, and a warning is displayed by the command line decoder.
... WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, ...
The replay gain APE v.2 tags are identical with both formats. Player programs can use these tags in the same way or do you mean something else?
I don't think Monkey's Audio supports RG tags. According to Wikipedia (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lossless_comparison#APE_CONS), it doesn't. If you think it does, just tell me how tu use it.
Don't believe everything you read. I don't think Wavpack has any different RG support than Monkey's Audio has. Both formats can be analyzed and can have APE v.2 replay gain tags. Foobar2000 is a nice tool for trying that. I have used replay gain with my Monkey's Audio files for years.
I don't think Monkey's Audio supports RG tags. According to Wikipedia (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lossless_comparison#APE_CONS), it doesn't. If you think it does, just tell me how tu use it.
...drum roll...
Foobar2000 is a nice tool for trying that.
...cymbal crash!
... WavPack has also some very nice features that MA doesn't have (Replay Gain, ...
The replay gain APE v.2 tags are identical with both formats. Player programs can use these tags in the same way or do you mean something else?
I don't think Monkey's Audio supports RG tags. According to Wikipedia (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Lossless_comparison#APE_CONS), it doesn't. If you think it does, just tell me how tu use it.
Don't believe everything you read. I don't think Wavpack has any different RG support than Monkey's Audio has. Both formats can be analyzed and can have APE v.2 replay gain tags. Foobar2000 is a nice tool for trying that. I have used replay gain with my Monkey's Audio files for years.
I was not aware of that. Is there a way to do that without Foobar2000 (I'm a Winamp user) ? The official Monkey's Audio Winamp plugin doesn't seem to support RG.
A file error is always a serious problem either in HW or SW and should be dealt immediately.
Wrong. It could also be the result of a CD scratch, or network problems, or several other issues. In that aspect, a format with error robustness is much better. If your Monkey's Audio file has one error, often the entire track from that point is lost. If it is a wavpack file, the decoding goes on, and a warning is displayed by the command line decoder.
You took that sentence out of the context.
I said
I like that a lossless decoder does not allow errors. I have a separate lossy library for playback purposes.
What I did not say is that I use lossless for archiving only and I want to fix a possible file system problem / memory problem / software error / faulty storage media / etc before the error ends up to my backup archives. Before finding the cause of the error I cannot know if the problem is serious and if all other data is in danger too.
Your mileage may vary. For example, a working DJ certainly needs error robustness instead of zero tolerance.
I was not aware of that. Is there a way to do that without Foobar2000 (I'm a Winamp user) ? The official Monkey's Audio Winamp plugin doesn't seem to support RG.
I don't know. The last time I used Winamp seriously was almost five years ago. At that time I had only wave and mp3 files. Is it correct to assume that this official plugin is made by Matt Ashland himself and comes with the Monkey's Audio package or is made by Nullsoft?
Is it correct to assume that this official plugin is made by Matt Ashland himself and comes with the Monkey's Audio package or is made by Nullsoft?
Yes, according to the about box : "Copyrighted © 2006-2006 Matthew T. Ashland". This plugin is bundled with the package that can be downloaded on the official MA website (http://www.monkeysaudio.com/download.html). Do you think there is an unofficial plugin for Winamp that supports RG ?
Is it correct to assume that this official plugin is made by Matt Ashland himself and comes with the Monkey's Audio package or is made by Nullsoft?
Yes, according to the about box : "Copyrighted © 2006-2006 Matthew T. Ashland". This plugin is bundled with the package that can be downloaded on the official MA website (http://www.monkeysaudio.com/download.html). Do you think there is an unofficial plugin for Winamp that supports RG ?
None listed on WA's website, the WavePack one does support RG tho...
What I did not say is that I use lossless for archiving only and I want to fix a possible file system problem / memory problem / software error / faulty storage media / etc before the error ends up to my backup archives.
Shit happens.
Your mileage may vary. For example, a working DJ certainly needs error robustness instead of zero tolerance.
Zero tolerance is idiotic no matter how you look at it. WavPack can also be considered "intolerant" since the command line decoder always warns about stream errors. But then it keeps decoding, so that you lose the least data. In Monkey's Audio case, besides outputting an error - not a warning - you lose lots of data.
Don't believe everything you read. I don't think Wavpack has any different RG support than Monkey's Audio has. Both formats can be analyzed and can have APE v.2 replay gain tags. Foobar2000 is a nice tool for trying that. I have used replay gain with my Monkey's Audio files for years.
The difference between Monkey's Audio and WavPack, in this aspect, is that David Bryant officially endorses ReplayGain and he implemented it in the official tools. I think it's also mentioned in the documentation. Ashland never endorsed ReplayGain, it took Peter Pawlowski to hack it into the format. The outcome is that foobar is pretty much the only tool supporting replaygain on Monkey's. The winamp plugin doesn't support, the Audition filter doesn't support, the official decoder doesn't support, the XMMS plugin doesn't support, shntool doesn't support... that's why Wikipedia and the HA wiki list it as lacking RG support (well, someone recently messed - again - the HA wiki comparison, but I fixed it already)
If foobar support alone was enough, pretty much every codec could be considered RG-aware.
MA doesn't have native RG support. It is up to the player to implement it (FB2K or similar). Matt even said this somewhere here or in the MA forum.
MA doesn't have native RG support. It is up to the player to implement it (FB2K or similar). Matt even said this somewhere here or in the MA forum.
That's the whole point. If the author himself claims the format doesn't officially support ReplayGain, support coming out of player developers' initiative won't be enough.
FWIW, J. River's Media Center also supports RG with APE. Of course Matt Ashland is one of the lead Media Center devs though
Zero tolerance is idiotic no matter how you look at it. WavPack can also be considered "intolerant" since the command line decoder always warns about stream errors. But then it keeps decoding, so that you lose the least data. In Monkey's Audio case, besides outputting an error - not a warning - you lose lots of data.
In this case the first data loss has already happened before decoding. MA prevents this data loss from spreading so that the problem can be fixed before continuing. (I don't usually use command line decoders).
But, please, I don't really want to start a debate on this. Everyone can make his or her own format choices that are based on the information that is available in HA.
I may start using some other lossless format today, but without a very good reason I am not going to convert my Monkey's Audio archives to another format. I have ripped about 2000 CDs in Monkeys Audio disc image + cue + APL format and I have two backup archives. That makes a lot of HDs full of that stuff.
I would like to add that in my opinion the OP has no reason to convert perfectly good WavPack files to Monkey's Audio. The storage space savings are marginal, as already said.
The difference between Monkey's Audio and WavPack, in this aspect, is that David Bryant officially endorses ReplayGain and he implemented it in the official tools. I think it's also mentioned in the documentation. Ashland never endorsed ReplayGain, it took Peter Pawlowski to hack it into the format. The outcome is that foobar is pretty much the only tool supporting replaygain on Monkey's. The winamp plugin doesn't support, the Audition filter doesn't support, the official decoder doesn't support, the XMMS plugin doesn't support, shntool doesn't support... that's why Wikipedia and the HA wiki list it as lacking RG support (well, someone recently messed - again - the HA wiki comparison, but I fixed it already)
If foobar support alone was enough, pretty much every codec could be considered RG-aware.
Yes, I know these things.
Personally I have used replay gain with Monkey's Audio files since Media Jukebox 8 was introduced in early 2002. This was before foobar2000 and most of the replay gain enabled plugins for other programs & formats were available. The MJ8 beta in late 2001 was one of the first player programs (if not the first) that had a replay gain analyzer and a playback correction system. Matt (who works for J. River) followed strictly the proposed standard and J. River uses the original 83 dB reference value. In their newer program, Media Center, they introduced a clever album gain system that calculates database based album gain values on the fly.
Perhaps unfortunately J. River has not followed what the rest of the world (excluding of course the big guys like WMP, iTunes and Real) has done with Replay Gain since then. They still use their own replay gain tags and the originally proposed reference value.
@rjamorim : Thank you for your clarification.
I think I will switch to WavPack in the future, when its speed and/or compression will be improved.
In this case the first data loss has already happened before decoding. MA prevents this data loss from spreading so that the problem can be fixed before continuing. (I don't usually use command line decoders).
It is still unjustifiable to have an unforgiving decoder. You said you use Monkey's for archiving. The purpose of archiving is to save data for future usage, and if part of the data is unrecoverable, you should still be able to recover as much as possible.
If you care so much about integrity, it's your job to keep a close eye when the data is being recovered. Even with Monkey's Audio: if you decode an APE stream corrupted at the last few seconds, you probably won't notice the corruption anyway, and it might spread...
Oh, BTW, I think foobar also reports corrupt streams through its log console.
But, please, I don't really want to start a debate on this.
Too bad, this thread was becoimg interesting. But I understand your position...
Everyone can make his or her own format choices that are based on the information that is available in HA.
And why not increase the knowledge pool at HA adding valuable information to this very thread?
@rjamorim : Thank you for your clarification.
I think I will switch to WavPack in the future, when its speed and/or compression will be improved.
That is not very likely to happen. Maybe speed will increase a little if David or someone else works on assembly optimizations, but compression probably already reached its sweet spot. I believe that, from now on, David will focus more on format features and improving software and hardware support.
Everyone can make his or her own format choices that are based on the information that is available in HA.
And why not increase the knowledge pool at HA adding valuable information to this very thread?
I appreciate knowing this.
I have
no use for a format that will continue decoding through errors
even if it gives you a heads-up.
At least flac gives you the option.
Thanks for filling me in.
thanks for all the input guys. Big help. I am purchasing two seagate 320 gb hard drives with 5 year warrenties. One for use with raid 1 in mind. i will keep the wavpack files for now as i don't think space is an issue at the moment.
Where does foobar report an error during decoding?
Where does foobar report an error during decoding?
In the console (View -> Console in foobar 0.9.3.1)