I have a pair of Sennheiser HD650s which I'm currently running off the amp in my Logitech speakers. I can't say I hear any noticable hiss or distortion. It sounds fine to me.
But someone on another forum is claiming there absolutely must be a difference, and there's no way possible that my speakers could be outputting as clean of a signal as a dedicated headphone amp would.
So, is it worth dropping $80 on a dedicated headphone amp to sit between my cans and my soundcard?
I have a pair of Sennheiser HD650s which I'm currently running off the amp in my Logitech speakers. I can't say I hear any noticable hiss or distortion. It sounds fine to me.
But someone on another forum is claiming there absolutely must be a difference, and there's no way possible that my speakers could be outputting as clean of a signal as a dedicated headphone amp would.
So, is it worth dropping $80 on a dedicated headphone amp to sit between my cans and my soundcard?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344793"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have a set of Logitech z5300 speakers. The headphone jack is coupled to the volume control of the speakers. I have not noticed any problem using it-seems to me to be the functional equivalent of a headphone amp. I run Senn HD580 cans off mine with no problems.
There would probably be a difference between what you have now and a good headphone amplifier. Whether or not that difference is actually "better' or 'worthwhile' is a value judgement. Unfortunately $80 is very little for a 'good' amplifier. You are likely to spend at least several times that to approach optimum, so if $80 is the limit, the answer is less likely to be 'yes, it is worth spending the money.'
If you are inclined towards DIY, there is at least one option that could come in under $80. Look at the 'Pocket Headphone Amplifier' stuff on the Headwize site. Especially if you make a well filtered mains connected power supply (rather than running off batteries) that provides anywhere from +/-12V to +/-18V, this circuit can be very good. Although it isn't intrinsically that expensive, I'm not aware of anyone selling them at a reasonable price. Labor, you own for DIY, can add quite a bit.
$200 (http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1405) is pretty cheap for a good headphone amp. But it should be enough for your setup. Yes, your Senns will benefit significantly from amping. Cmoy (http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&q=cmoy&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8k&meta=) is the DIY solution most used, I think. But if you can get it done for less than the SuperMini-3 I have no idea. (Myself own a SuperMacro-3 V6 (http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1391). And it's a different world from unamped. Really.)
So, is it worth dropping $80 on a dedicated headphone amp to sit between my cans and my soundcard?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344793"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't agree a dedicated headphone must always sound better. It all depends on the quality of the headphone output of your Logitech speakers.
So, is it worth dropping $80 on a dedicated headphone amp to sit between my cans and my soundcard?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344793"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't agree a dedicated headphone must always sound better. It all depends on the quality of the headphone output of your Logitech speakers.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344844"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, might be, but honestly, if you're using Sennheiser's top-of-the-line high-end headphone, I find it rather strange to be so cheap with regard to an amp. After all, Sennheiser's 580/600/650 line enjoy the reputation of absolutely needing a headphone amp to bring out their potential. From my own experiences, my Sennheiser HD 600 sound pretty bland on a normal headphone out, while they sound a lot more detailed and especially a lot fuller in the bass range when driven from my headphone amp.
I think it is at least worth trying them with a dedicated headphone amp and judging for yourself if the difference in sound quality is worth it.
It depends. It doesn't take state of the art electronics to drive Sennheiser headphones properly. Just low impedance and high enough voltage and current capability, which will be still low because they are headphones.
I'm quite confident a cheap Turtle Beach Santa Cruz would drive them properly.
a cheap Turtle Beach Santa Cruz would drive them properly
but the difference between that and a decent amplifier would not be esoteric or subtle. Music
would objectively sound different. Most people would classify that difference as "better" but, as I said earlier, the value of that difference can only be decided by the person who has to spend the money. No one else can make the decision for you.
Unfortunately $80 is very little for a 'good' amplifier. You are likely to spend at least several times that to approach optimum, so if $80 is the limit, the answer is less likely to be 'yes, it is worth spending the money.'
If you are inclined towards DIY, there is at least one option that could come in under $80.
An 'optimal' headphone amp need not be costly. For less than $80, one can get a Behringer UB1202 small size mixer which has a superbly performing hedphone amplifier stage built-in. The headphone output stage on that unit will drive ANY headphone with no problem. I can use this device on the super-sensitive Sony MDR-CD3000 and have no audible noise/hiss[
assuming one sets levels correctly] or use it on the insanely voltage hungry AKG K 340 and it will never clip, even on 30dB peaks on purist opera/classical recordings, since it[UB1202] can output RMS voltage in the double digits. Frequency response remains flat and distortion remains well under human thresholds during use on either extreme as described above.
-Chris
but the difference between that and a decent amplifier would not be esoteric or subtle. Music would objectively sound different.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344935"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How do you know? I wouldn't be very sure about that. Santa Cruz card has a quite good output stage, with very low impedance and good current capability. I should perform some in-place RMAA tests to settle the issue, but I don't think I have much time to do it now.
So, is it worth dropping $80 on a dedicated headphone amp to sit between my cans and my soundcard?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344793"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't agree a dedicated headphone must always sound better. It all depends on the quality of the headphone output of your Logitech speakers.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344844"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Seconded - most headphones don't present a difficult load for a half-decent sound card anyway. To be honest, modern electronics make it difficult to make an output stage that sounds poor unless there's some serious skimping in the detail. All this "headphones have to be amped" is marketing and audiophile tosh IMO. What do people think is in the output stages anyway? Guess what - an AMP. Pick your components sensibly and an amp is just not needed.
My two-pence worth anyway but there's one rule IMO - if you like the sound and can afford something, buy it! It's not important if someone else disagrees, they don't have to listen to it - you do!
I have a pair of Sennheiser HD650s which I'm currently running off the amp in my Logitech speakers. I can't say I hear any noticable hiss or distortion. It sounds fine to me.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344793"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If it sounds fine, then I wouldn't recommend buying a headphone amp unless you are really curious about the possibility of it sounding better. I got a headphone amp because all of the receivers or soundcards I've plugged my HD600s into didn't sound very good. I don't at all regret my purchase, but there's no way I would have considered them if I hadn't heard sound distortion in all the devices I habitually listen to. My advice would be to take those excellent headphones of yours, and plug them into different things (your mp3 player, your friends' receivers, etc.). If you don't hear any range of quality, then it might just be something that you're not very attuned to picking up. If you do, and your Logitech still sounds really good, then you've lucked out in that the amplifier you're using happens to have a good headphone-out jack.
Anyways, while $80 might not be much in the realm of audio equipment, it's still a fair amount of money. Most of the world doesn't earn that much in a week. So if you don't have anything better to spend it on other than solving problems that you don't have, well, maybe you'd be better off saving it for a rainy day, or donating it to someone that would appreciate it more.
Speaking as a person who has spent far more than $80 on headphone amps I can pretty conclusively say that the price has very little to do with the actual quality.
When you look at the $$$ (>200) audiophile headphone amp designs, by and large you are spending most of that money on purely design-based merits that imply some added subjective benefit:
- Pure class-A amplification
- Zero negative feedbacck, multiloop feedback, servo-only feedback, or otherwise esoteric feedback designs
- Discrete designs (ie no opamps)
- Linear/outboard power supplies
- Dual mono/balanced circuits
- Stepped attenuators
- Stupidly large power outputs (A Dynahi can allegedly dump 10W of pure class A power)
What you are usually
not going to see are amps purely advertised based on their objective ratings. That isn't just because audiophiles don't believe in them - the fact of the matter is that a lot of the time the objective ratings suck.
On two separate occasions, I have dealt with amps that came with the most glowing reviews, and positively blew chunks. The first one was a DIY amp I auditioned at a hifi store that sold for $200 and was described as a Grado RA1 clone (ie a glorified cmoy). It audibly hissed when I listened to them with my ER4S's. The second one was a headamp gilmore v2 I bought used and retails for $500, which has large amounts of both hiss and ground hum, although it is not often audible at low volumes. I still use it, and I don't like it, but to the benefit of objective psychoacoustics, the noise is not often audible when listening to music so it does not bother me.
That said, there are some good objective reasons for buying an amp. Most analog outs are just not meant to drive headphones at the sources's lowest distortion - their THD will go up the more mW you plow through them - and few of them are really meant to handle load impedances below 1kOhm. Whether those issues are audible is something you need to find out for yourself.
So, is it worth dropping $80 on a dedicated headphone amp to sit between my cans and my soundcard?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344793"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Probably need to bump that up a bit to around $150. Doesn't make sense to buy an expensive pair of headphones and not drive them properly.
I should also point out that I technically did have a headphone amp at one point, a Grado RA1. I compared it against the amp in my receiver and couldn't tell the difference. Or rather, I could, but it wasn't $310 worth of difference, so I ended up selling it.
Which is why I'm wondering how necessary they are.
I compared it against the amp in my receiver and couldn't tell the difference. Or rather, I could, but it wasn't $310 worth of difference,
As I said, value is personal.
Probably need to bump that up a bit to around $150. Doesn't make sense to buy an expensive pair of headphones and not drive them properly.
What's wrong with a <$80 UB1202, as I recommened? It drives headphones of any sensitivity with no audible noise[
assuming one sets levels correctly, obviously if you turn up the extra unused channel input gains to maximum you will get noise on a mixer], no clipping/distortion and and has a flat frequency response.
If the user want a purpose specific product, I can recommend <$100 products, but they may not have the ability of the UB1202 on very low sensitivity headphones, because the UB1202 has a +/- 18V supply. But for most people, a +/- 4.5V supply would be sufficient to power their headphones with no problem, even on relatively dynamic source material.
-Chris
but the difference between that and a decent amplifier would not be esoteric or subtle. Music would objectively sound different.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344935"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How do you know? I wouldn't be very sure about that. Santa Cruz card has a quite good output stage, with very low impedance and good current capability. I should perform some in-place RMAA tests to settle the issue, but I don't think I have much time to do it now.
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I'll second that. I have a Santa Cruz card and it's well capable of driving good quality low impedance earphones to a decent level without noticeable distortion. I do use "active" HK695 speakers but I tried earphones from curiosity, after reading Andy's post.
What's wrong with a <$80 UB1202, as I recommened? It drives headphones of any sensitivity with no audible noise[assuming one sets levels correctly, obviously if you turn up the extra unused channel input gains to maximum you will get noise on a mixer], no clipping/distortion and and has a flat frequency response.
I don't know; I've only tried a few diy amplifiers and haven't found the cheaper ones very good, and this guy's headphones are more expensive than mine. Maybe yours is one that should get more attention. It would be nice if there were more numbers around for amplifiers like the RMAA ones so one doesn't have to go on hearsay. But I'm happy with what I've got at the moment so I don't care any more.
$200 (http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1405) is pretty cheap for a good headphone amp. But it should be enough for your setup. Yes, your Senns will benefit significantly from amping. Cmoy (http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&q=cmoy&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8k&meta=) is the DIY solution most used, I think. But if you can get it done for less than the SuperMini-3 I have no idea. (Myself own a SuperMacro-3 V6 (http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1391). And it's a different world from unamped. Really.)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=344832")
Just an FYI. The XIN SuperMini-3 Amp mentioned above is on sale Thanksgiving Weekend for $150 vs the regular $200 price. I would order the amp. If it does not perform, it can be returned for a refund or maybe sold for more than you paid for it.
After my research, I ordered the XIN SuperMini-3 on Friday morning. I am hoping that it will make a substantial difference when listing to my Iaudio U2 dap and my Panasonic R4 laptop using UE 5Pro.
Take care,
Oliver
Links
XIN SuperMini-3 Amp [a href="http://www.fixup.net/products/]http://www.fixup.net/products/[/url]
Edit - This thread has more info on the amp. http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1263 (http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1263)
At head-fi.org
Xin amps holiday discounts!
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148744 (http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148744)
Xin supermini v Hornet?
http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148214 (http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=148214)
In my opinion, anything over $80 is a total ripoff, and $80 is quite expensive for what a headphone amp does. For a good enough headphone amplifier, the greatest cost in pieces would probably go for the power supply parts. If it was not for the power supply, I think the amplifier electronics could be built for a few $.
You must take notice of the fact that a dynamic headphone, no matter how expensive, needs very little power, so the requirements for the amp are quite low. Only a bit of care is needed to build a good amp.
In my opinion, anything over $80 is a total ripoff, and $80 is quite expensive for what a headphone amp does. For a good enough headphone amplifier, the greatest cost in pieces would probably go for the power supply parts. If it was not for the power supply, I think the amplifier electronics could be built for a few $.
You must take notice of the fact that a dynamic headphone, no matter how expensive, needs very little power, so the requirements for the amp are quite low. Only a bit of care is needed to build a good amp.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=345864"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Have you tested any headphone amps? And are you clever and handy enough to build one small and solid enough to fit in your pocket? With good powermanagement and internal recharging of NiMH batteries? Well, maybe you are, but I'm not...
Besides, there are more to a good sounding amplifier whether it drives headphones or speakers than just supplying raw power. Amplifiers sound differently (it's not difficult to ABX
difference in sound between amplifiers, what's
good sound on the other hand is more difficult/individual).
Let's agree to disagree.
I've currently tested just the headphone amp of my Revo 7.1 soundcard, and found it not to be good enough for driving my Sennheiser HD580. But this card has a very simple and limited output stage consisting of 2 5532 opamps in parallel per channel. Not that the 5532 is any bad, but is inadequate as a power device. The Santa Cruz has a better output stage, with a measured low impedance output and I believe it has dedicated power parts, I guess it will do quite better. It costed around $50 when it was sold. Let's see if I can find some time to measure its headphone performance.
Now, I'm not much of an electronic designer, but I know that the electronics required for building a good headphone amp are simple. As I and others have said, there are available inexpensive devices with good headphone amps. As to battery management and such, they are extras that I'm not considering.
All a good amp has to do is supply raw power with low levels of both linear and nonlinear distortion.
Now, do you have any positive ABX results that prove two decent amplifiers, be it expensive or not, sound different? IMO cd players, DACs and amps, as long as the are half decent, are *very* difficult to ABX, or even impossible.
In my opinion, anything over $80 is a total ripoff, and $80 is quite expensive for what a headphone amp does. For a good enough headphone amplifier, the greatest cost in pieces would probably go for the power supply parts. If it was not for the power supply, I think the amplifier electronics could be built for a few $.
You must take notice of the fact that a dynamic headphone, no matter how expensive, needs very little power, so the requirements for the amp are quite low. Only a bit of care is needed to build a good amp.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=345864"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Have you tested any headphone amps? And are you clever and handy enough to build one small and solid enough to fit in your pocket? With good powermanagement and internal recharging of NiMH batteries? Well, maybe you are, but I'm not...
Besides, there are more to a good sounding amplifier whether it drives headphones or speakers than just supplying raw power. Amplifiers sound differently (it's not difficult to ABX difference in sound between amplifiers, what's good sound on the other hand is more difficult/individual).
Let's agree to disagree.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=345867"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There's no special technology required to produce a good quality low-power amp, which is all a headphone amp really is. Yes, I'm clever and handy enough to make one, should I choose. Power management isn't difficult, since batteries don't produce huge amounts of noise. Internal recharging isn't something I'd find useful, why add complexity when an external charger is easy & cheap?
You make a bold statement that it's easy to ABX amps. As Kike-G points out any half decent amp is going to be very difficult to ABX from another. Consider that any decent, modern, solid-state amp will produce distortion figures in the hundredths of a percent or better, yet the distortion in any headphone or loudspeaker system is several percent, at least, even in the very highest echelons of quality. To distinguish that tiny fraction of a percent due to the amp would indeed be *very* difficult IMO. Valve (tube) amps aren't so difficult because they often do have very poor distortion figures.
"Good sound" is indeed difficult, simply because it's personal preference. I'd certainly agree that what sounds "good" to you may not be "good" to me or vice versa. In the true sense of "Hi-Fi", however, a more accurate amp has to be better...
If you want a quick and easy, but maybe not totally safe, test, just hook up the headphones to your normal speaker connection and keep the volume very low. I made a box years ago with half a dozen jacks and series power resistors to limit current, and other than deaf musicians had no real problems with it. You could also cut the plug end off a headphone extension cord, strip the wires and hook it up to your amp (like the speaker B terminals etc. but I wouldn't LEAVE it hooked up with the headphones plugged in).
My own experience is that while the top Sennheisers sound very good under most conditions, it wasn't until I had a real amp behind them that they walked away from the competition.
Don't most heahphone amps also do the blend thing?
So, is it worth dropping $80 on a dedicated headphone amp to sit between my cans and my soundcard?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=344793"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why not drop $69 on a go-vibe (www.go-vibe.com) and see if you get "better" sound directly from the card to a standalone amp. Not very expensive experiment. I've owned a go-vibe a long time, and it drives HD580s, DT-880 and whatever else you throw at it to ear-splitting volumes with low output impedance, plenty of dynamics and low distortion. It's a hand-built amp with good quality parts, so the price is justified IMO.
I'd say try the experiment, if it doesn't work you can sell it for close to what you paid on eBay or head-fi. Subjective matters call for subjective listening.
P.S. I have no affiliation with the aforementioned seller, except I own an earlier version of this amp and enjoy it a lot. The only reason I recommended it is that the price is reasonable and I have personal experience with it.
Why not drop $69 on a go-vibe (www.go-vibe.com) and see if you get "better" sound directly from the card to a standalone amp. Not very expensive experiment. I've owned a go-vibe a long time, and it drives HD580s, DT-880 and whatever else you throw at it to ear-splitting volumes with low output impedance, plenty of dynamics and low distortion. It's a hand-built amp with good quality parts, so the price is justified IMO.
DT880 on a G0-VIBE? While I'm sure that you can achieve annoyling loud SPLs, a standard 400 ohm DT880(as opposed to one of the new high sensitive 32 ohm versions) is probably going to distort on dynamic recordings with only a 9VDC supply due to voltage clipping. 18VDC seems to a safe supply voltage when listening to my most dynamic music program examples on a standard 400ohm DT880. A 9VDC supply results in a static-like harsh distortion on high amplitude peaks in these dynamic recordings when coupled with a DT880. However, if one does not use very dynamic program material(uncompressed dynamically music, such as classical, opera, etc.), it is not likely to be noticed or become an issue. Also, glancing at the Go-Vibe description, it appears to be directly coupling a AD8066AR with the output load(no mention of a current buffer). I am not an electronics technician(so keep this is mind ), but looking over the technical document for the AD8066AR, appears to be a poor choice for directly coupling to low impedance(<100 ohm) loads. I would recommend a design that uses a more suitable operational amplifier for low impedance loads(unless only high impedance loads are used) or get an amp design that used a current buffer so that the op-amp loading current is irrelevant.
-Chris
mirrorsawlljk, sorry for my poor english
my humble opinion:
source is the most important thing because amplifier cannot recover lost signal.
have you good soundcard or external DA converter?
if not, buy good soundcard with headphone integrated amplifier , for exemple revolution 5.1 ( i am very happy with!) or Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1 LT ( 80 -> 100 $ )
and never mind!
or buy very high quality EXTERNAL DA converter and very high quality headphone amplifier ( 1000 -> 500000000 $ ...)
and make me a gift for coaching!!!
if you have good soundcard, for exemple revolution 7.1 or 5.1, terratec dmx 6fire or santacruz the question is :
have it good headphone amplifier?
ansver for revolution 5.1 or santacruz ( tanks KikeG!) is yes!
ansver for 7.1 and dmx 6fire is no!
and you have need amplifier.
which amplifier?
because soundcards use OP amplifier and cannot recover lost signal ...
Do-It-Yourself (20 $) and never mind..., for exemple
Pocket Headphone Amplifier by Chu Moy (http://headwize.com/projects/showfile.php?file=cmoy2_prj.htm)
if you cannot DIY sell your soundcard
and buy revo 5.1
melomane
DT880 on a G0-VIBE? While I'm sure that you can achieve annoyling loud SPLs, a standard 400 ohm DT880(as opposed to one of the new high sensitive 32 ohm versions) is probably going to distort on dynamic recordings with only a 9VDC supply due to voltage clipping.
My DT-880 is driven just fine (earsplitting levels, no audible distortion) with my Go-Vibe V3. BTW they are all 250 ohms now, I don't know where you got the 400-ohm figure.
18VDC seems to a safe supply voltage when listening to my most dynamic music program examples on a standard 400ohm DT880. A 9VDC supply results in a static-like harsh distortion on high amplitude peaks in these dynamic recordings when coupled with a DT880.
You seem to be generalizing this voltage issue to include all amps. As long as the op-amp[/buffers] in the amp put out enough current (voltage is not the issue at all) you will not get distortion. Voltage swing relates only to loudness, not distortion.
Also, glancing at the Go-Vibe description, it appears to be directly coupling a AD8066AR with the output load(no mention of a current buffer). I am not an electronics technician(so keep this is mind ), but looking over the technical document for the AD8066AR, appears to be a poor choice for directly coupling to low impedance(<100 ohm) loads.
You would think so, but in practice it is not. Or if a person believes so, another opamp can be used; the go-vibe is set up to allow changing out opamps easily.
I don't know where people get the idea that an expensive amp is needed to drive cans like the DT880 or HD600... electrically speaking, it's just not so. In fact, they are easier to drive than low-impedance Grados, in every way except loudness. People who spend hundreds of dollars on headphone amps are either looking for "audiophile jewelry" or are ignorant of basic electronics (or both).
As a person with vocational school certificate in electronics (fwiw) I can tell you the Headsave Go-Vibe is an excellent amp, particularly for higher impedance cans. Low output impedance, no coupling caps, nice RMAA results, long battery life, no "audiophile" overpricing.
BTW they are all 250 ohms now, I don't know where you got the 400-ohm figure.
Maybe I am thinking of my other headhones impedance... sorry about the confusion.
You seem to be generalizing this voltage issue to include all amps. As long as the op-amp[/buffers] in the amp put out enough current (voltage is not the issue at all) you will not get distortion. Voltage swing relates only to loudness, not distortion.
But voltge is a real issue. When the output signal nails the rail limits, the result is hard clipping. I have analyzed the waveform input signals to the amp, the gain and the output signal, it can not achieve satisfactory voltage output with my very dynamic material using a 9VDC supply. The result is very offensive distortion. However, merely increasing the supply voltage renders this a non issue(and is exactly as calculations would predict). Or I can simply not use my very dynamic selections and it's also okay. Though, I have another headphone that is substantially less efficient than the DT880, and 18VDC supply is not enough for them on very dynamic material...
You would think so, but in practice it is not. Or if a person believes so, another opamp can be used; the go-vibe is set up to allow changing out opamps easily.
Well, maybe AD chose to be conservative in their specs? A good set of measurements under the respective loads is all that is needed to demonstrate suitability, of course. But the data sheet of the output device used did not look favorable for low impedance loads.
I don't know where people get the idea that an expensive amp is needed to drive cans like the DT880 or HD600... electrically speaking, it's just not so.
For the record, I am the last person to suggest an expensive amp(unless it has some special feature). But other portable amps besides the Go-Vibe in the same approximate price class exist that have current buffers on the outputs, that was my point.
-Chris
But voltge is a real issue. When the output signal nails the rail limits, the result is hard clipping. I have analyzed the waveform input signals to the amp, the gain and the output signal, it can not achieve satisfactory voltage output with my very dynamic material using a 9VDC supply. The result is very offensive distortion. However, merely increasing the supply voltage renders this a non issue(and is exactly as calculations would predict). Or I can simply not use my very dynamic selections and it's also okay. Though, I have another headphone that is substantially less efficient than the DT880, and 18VDC supply is not enough for them on very dynamic material...
For what it's worth, I own a Go-Vibe v2 (9v, AD8620) and a Headsave Home-Vibe (24v, OPA627) and notice no difference whatever in dynamics between the two amps using my DT880. They are audibly identical in the dynamics category. Maybe I have tin ears or something, but I do listen to very dynamic classical music with both amps and have never noticed any clipping with the go-vibe at 9v.
Moreover, I don't understand that there's anything magical about 9v, or 18v or (insert voltage figure here). As long as you aren't exceeding Vmin with the particular opamp involved, you are fine. See this page for a list of voltage specs (ignore the subjective judgments on sound quality, unless inclined to believe such stuff):
http://www.tangentsoft.net/audio/opamps.html (http://www.tangentsoft.net/audio/opamps.html)
As far as your experience goes, I can only suspect that you were either using a voltage-hungry opamp, or the battery was run down. There's no reason why 9 volts is too little for dynamic music, or a particular headphone, or whatever. Many headphone amps in portable CD players drive a wide variety of headphones just fine (albeit lacking a bit in volume swing) powered by 3VDC. In fact, some portable radios and MP3 players use a single 1.5v "AAA" battery and don't get returned in droves for nasty clipping with dynamic music.
But other portable amps besides the Go-Vibe in the same approximate price class exist that have current buffers on the outputs, that was my point.
Fair enough, what ~$69 amp comes to mind? I've had no problems at all myself going unbuffered, but some people may want the extra insurance of current buffers, particularly with low impedance cans. As for the go-vibe specifically, the reason I recommended it is that I own one, and am happy with it.
P.S. don't forget about the power supply capacitors, when envisioning power delivered to the opamp. The go-vibe has a couple of nice, beefy ones that seem to handle dynamic swings just fine. In fact, these capacitors probably matter more (in terms of dynamics) than the amount of voltage supplied by the battery.
I personally made myself a Cmoy amplifier, and I can confirm that having too low a voltage is an issue; However, in this case, I really ran down my batteries to an insane level, and using two batteries would only allow me to run them down more. The distortion will be a corellate of both voltage and current, so you're actually both right. However, more importantly, clipping is due to insufficient voltage.
For what it's worth, I own a Go-Vibe v2 (9v, AD8620) and a Headsave Home-Vibe (24v, OPA627) and notice no difference whatever in dynamics between the two amps using my DT880. They are audibly identical in the dynamics category. Maybe I have tin ears or something, but I do listen to very dynamic classical music with both amps and have never noticed any clipping with the go-vibe at 9v.
Refer to [A].
Moreover, I don't understand that there's anything magical about 9v, or 18v or (insert voltage figure here).
[A] 9V simply is not enough for
my combination of music and listening level when using the Beyer DT880. 18V is 2x9V batteries(so the jump is logical) and provides 6dB additional amplitude potential vs. 9V. 18V is not sufficient for my AKG K340.
As long as you aren't exceeding Vmin with the particular opamp involved, you are fine. See this page for a list of voltage specs (ignore the subjective judgments on sound quality, unless inclined to believe such stuff):
I will put together a measured analysis for you within the next couple of weeks.
As far as your experience goes, I can only suspect that you were either using a voltage-hungry opamp, or the battery was run down.
The batteries new. The opamps are not demanding as used in the evaluatory device. The distortion is logical, as it occurs as it should accordig to my calculations based on the gain setting I use with particular music and the amplifier voltage output limitations.
There's no reason why 9 volts is too little for dynamic music, or a particular headphone, or whatever. Many headphone amps in portable CD players drive a wide variety of headphones just fine (albeit lacking a bit in volume swing) powered by 3VDC. In fact, some portable radios and MP3 players use a single 1.5v "AAA" battery and don't get returned in droves for nasty clipping with dynamic music.
It would be poor engineering for a totally enclosed system, such as a PDCP, to distort. It is easy to limit the gain factor of the internal amplifications so that 0dBFs of the input signal after max, gain never exceeds the voltage available at the rails. This is not a controlled situation, however, when external devices are combined(external portable amp, etc.).
Fair enough, what ~$69 amp comes to mind? I've had no problems at all myself going unbuffered, but some people may want the extra insurance of current buffers, particularly with low impedance cans.
Well, at a little bit higher price, the Shellbrook MiniMoy comes to mind.
-Chris
9V batteries are usually rated to only 25mA of continuous current, and they have a rather large source impedance IIRC. (I've pulled 9Vs out of their package and have not been able to get 20mA out of them in a short!) This suggests that the maximum continuous DC power output is somewhere in the vicinity of 225mW. Given the source impedance, the short-term voltage loss at such currents, the efficiency of the DT880s and the efficiency of opamp designs I'd say it's not outside the realm of possibility that a 9V battery may not have enough juice. Additionally, opamps do have measurably increased distortion getting closer to the rails, even though clipping per se may not occur. 2 9's are going to suffer from source impedance-induced voltage drops and rail-related distortion to a much lesser degree, although the current capacity is unchanged.
That said, if you replace the 9V with a large block of D cells you definitely will not have this problem. If you use a DC-DC converter you will probably not have this problem, as long as it's not current related. And if you actually drive a DT880 to even 5 volts you are probably going to fry the coils.
I think this discussion has nothing to do with voltage.
You must take notice of the fact that a dynamic headphone, no matter how expensive, needs very little power, so the requirements for the amp are quite low. Only a bit of care is needed to build a good amp
You wouldn't think so, but there can be a substantial difference in the current/power requirements for a given set of headphones. The driving source just sees the headphones as an impedance load. Although there is not a direct connection between the price of the headphones and the power needed to drive them, some of the more expensive headphones just happen to have high impedance values relative to some less costly models. For example, look at the impedance values of 3 different headphones.
Sony MDR-XD400= 24 ohms
Beyerdynamic DT880= 250 ohms
Sennheiser HD650= 300 ohms
P=Power
E=Voltage
R=Resistance (Impedance)
Power= (E squared / R)
As you can see, the DT880 cans will need over 10 times more current for a given input voltage (rms) and the Senns over 12.
Just like people, the money hungry headphones are also the power hungry ones , as well. :-)
As you can see, the DT880 cans will need over 10 times more current for a given input voltage (rms) and the Senns over 12.
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Well, Ohm's law says actually the opposite. P=(V^2)/R, or P=(I^2)*R. So, in fact, the greater the impedance (R ), the lower the current (I) required for same power (P). But the greater the voltage (V) needed. That's the main problem with high impedance headphones. They usually need a higher voltage to sound at same loudness. I say "usually" because it all depends also on the headphone efficiency. If a headphone was very efficient, it could sound even louder despite having high impedance. However, it seems that high impedance headphones are usually not among the most efficient ones.
As to DT880 clipping... if the measurable distortion al high levels goes away when doubling the voltage of the supply, it seems like the cause was clearly the insufficient voltage of the supply. Putting two batteries in series increases the voltage, but also increases the source impedance, so distortion should not be supply source-impedance related. But, doing the maths, I find strange that 9V would not be enough to drive a 250 ohm or even a 400 ohm headphone a high enough SPLs. Anyway, actual measurements are the final proof of performance.
As you can see, the DT880 cans will need over 10 times more current for a given input voltage (rms) and the Senns over 12.
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Well, Ohm's law says actually the opposite. P=(V^2)/R, or P=(I^2)*R. So, in fact, the greater the impedance (R ), the lower the current (I) required for same power (P). But the greater the voltage (V) needed. That's the main problem with high impedance headphones. They usually need a higher voltage to sound at same loudness. I say "usually" because it all depends also on the headphone efficiency. If a headphone was very efficient, it could sound even louder despite having high impedance. However, it seems that high impedance headphones are usually not among the most efficient ones.
As to DT880 clipping... if the measurable distortion al high levels goes away when doubling the voltage of the supply, it seems like the cause was clearly the insufficient voltage of the supply. Putting two batteries in series increases the voltage, but also increases the source impedance, so distortion should not be supply source-impedance related. But, doing the maths, I find strange that 9V would not be enough to drive a 250 ohm or even a 400 ohm headphone a high enough SPLs. Anyway, actual measurements are the final proof of performance.
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I'll second that and add that higher-cost headphones are generally lower efficiency. Higher quality tends to yield compromises on efficiency, which doesn't usually matter too much at the power levels of headphones.
Doing the maths says that a 300 Ohm load driven by a conventional amp running off 9V would yield about 35mW RMS. 35mW, even on low efficiency headphones, ought to be painfully loud! That calculation assumes a genuine 9V supply, which a 9V (nominal) battery normally reaches on-load only when new.
Doubling the voltage by adding a second battery may actually cause more problems than it solves. Voltage is doubled but so is the current requirement, since the impedance is unaltered. A small battery is unlikely to be capable of supplying this extra current, the voltage on-load falls significantly and the amp clips badly. Theoretically there should be about 4 times the power output but in reality it's probably not going to rise much by adding a second battery.
Well, Ohm's law says actually the opposite. P=(V^2)/R, or P=(I^2)*R. So, in fact, the greater the impedance (R ), the lower the current (I) required for same power (P). But the greater the voltage (V) needed.
I'm not sure where we are in disagreement as I did state that P=(E squared/R). I would like to point out, however, if the impedance is raised in a circuit, as in this case by plugging in a different set of headphones, the power transferred to the output load (headphones) will decrease. For example, if you have a signal source coming from a headphone jack that is 6v rms and you are using phones with 24 Ohms of impedance there will be a current of 250mA which will deliver 1.5W of power to the load. If you then replaced the 24 Ohm headphones with a set of 300 Ohm headphones then your 6v signal source will be dropping accross 300 Ohms, therefore causing the current to drop to only 20mA and now only 120mW of power is transferred to the headphone load. In your example you chose to increase the voltage coming from the headphone output jack to maintain the same current level. Power=V x I so in this case, that would require your output voltage to increase from 6v to now 75v which is a huge increase and definitely isn't going to happen unless you have something like a dedicated headphone amp to drive this thing. In any event, there is a greater power demand for more expensive (higher impedance) headphones, which I believe was my point to begin with.
??? You claimed that if impedance was increased, current requirements were increased, given same voltage:
the DT880 cans will need over 10 times more current for a given input voltage (rms)
I said it was the opposite, and your own example proves this. See, in an amp+headphone (or speaker) system, current flows according to output voltage and impedance (not the opposite) because amps are ideally constant voltage sources. And headphones, being passive devices, have constant impedance, of course.
In your example you chose to increase the voltage coming from the headphone output jack to maintain the same current level.
I did not provide any example, I did not say anywhere anything about keeping same current level. What I said is that, keeping power constant, if impedance increases, current requirements are lower. But *voltage* requirements are higher, which is the same thing you say in your example.
An 'optimal' headphone amp need not be costly.
What do you think sonifex professional boxes, specifically
http://www.sonifex.co.uk/redbox/rbhd1_ld.shtml (http://www.sonifex.co.uk/redbox/rbhd1_ld.shtml)
An 'optimal' headphone amp need not be costly.
What do you think sonifex professional boxes, specifically
http://www.sonifex.co.uk/redbox/rbhd1_ld.shtml (http://www.sonifex.co.uk/redbox/rbhd1_ld.shtml)
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I have never used one, nor have I seen 3rd party measurements. However, I would be suprised if it had any audible problems such as noise. It should perform perfectly. As a precaution, I suggest that you buy from an outlet that gives a sufficient return period so that you can be sure it has no design/feature issues that make is non suitable for your purposes. At this price, however, if you don't require a rack mount device, I would recommend other more versatile products. The Headroom Micro is one such device in the price range of the Sonifix, and it has variable gain settings(to ensure optimal SNR regardless of headphone sensitivity), is able to be powered by 2x 9VDC batteries for portable applications, and has built in crossfeed filter function(which is important to some individuals to reduce listening fatigue on headphones). If you only need a transparent amplification for headphones(and do not need a specific form factor or other special features), then there are other much lower cost options available.
-Chris
I performed an RMAA test on my Headsave Go-Vibe v2, driving 300 ohm Senn HD580s via a splitter and using a partially run down 9v lithium battery.
Although I've seen amps that measure better (amp is unshielded and sitting right next to the PC fwiw), there's nothing there that looks like clipping... it would be dead obvious. It's driving the headphones at ear-splitting levels, BTW... any louder and the drivers would be at risk of damage.
RMAA Test Results (http://burndown.home.comcast.net/temp/Govibe.htm)
Sorry for not including a soundcard baseline, but the performance of M-Audio AP 2496 is well known around here.
Conclusion, the Go-Vibe (http://www.go-vibe.com) at 9v drives Senn HD580 (and by extension the lower impedance DT880) just fine. The drivers themselves are probably going to clip before the amp does.
So much wasted time talking, when measurements answer all questions...
Am I the only one that can't load the images off of the page fewtch linked to?
Thanks for the analysis, fewtch!
Although I've seen amps that measure better (amp is unshielded and sitting right next to the PC fwiw), there's nothing there that looks like clipping... it would be dead obvious. It's driving the headphones at ear-splitting levels, BTW... any louder and the drivers would be at risk of damage.
I don't know exactly what your reference point is supposed to be. I can get nice numbers as seen above, but not so under very dynamic music conditions. BTW, drivers easily take several times their continous power in short bursts(as is found in real music) without any damage. The short bursts are not sufficient in duration to heat the coils to dangerous temperatures.
I have made the measurements I promised a few weeks ago. I will post them next.
-Chris
Here are the test results, as promised. Values have been rounded.
Test equipment: Nicolet Digital Storage Oscilliscope, Micronta RMS bench top multimeter, Zen Extra 30GB MP3 Player, Shellbrook MaxiMoy Portable Amplifier, 9VDC Alkaline Battery Cells, Beyerdynamic DT880, Behringer UB1202 mixer(used as mic preamp), Behringer ECM8000 Measurement Microphone, DIY Headphone Jig, Radio Shack SPL Meter
DT880 *Measured Efficiency: 96dB/0.01W[apparent] @ 1kHz
*Efficiency measurement assumes a 250 Ohm impedance and non-reactive load. Real transducers produce reactive loads, so in reality, this is only an apparent value. I would preferably measure the actual impedance and phase of impedance for this device, but my computer is not currently set up to do these measurements.
1.72VRMS/250ohms=0.00688amps*1.72=0.01 W(apparent power)
I meausured dB value on the portable system of DT880 subject using a measurement microphone jig(that headphone mounts like a head, and contains a measurement microphone). SPL meter was used beside jig before headphones were mounted in order to establish an accurate dB reference point/calibration between the two. A voltage dB meter was used off of the measurement microphone's preamplifier to measure dB value vs. SPL meter reference. Volume set so that 1.72 VRMS was achieved. Db value recorded while driving DT880 with 1.72 VRMS with a 1 kHz sine wave test tone file that is recorded at -1 dBFs.
The following scope screens were made under volume setting relevant to (1)0.01 Watt DT880 efficiency [and] (2)(3)Minimal acceptable volume[as determined subjectively] setting for Douglas Allenbrook's Ethan Frome, Track 5, Disc 1, Mapleshade Records. Reminder: the Ethan Frome CD's average RMS values are at around -30dB, and the peaks are approaching 0dBFs. Most music would be listened to with the volume control set to a considerably lower gain, but this is a very highly dynamic music example.
(http://www.linaeum.com/images/dt880_amptest_scope1.gif)
At 1.72 VRMS output is clean with a 8.20VDC supply. 1.72 volts represents 96dB SPL as measured in the first part of this article. Distortion sets in soon after this point. Setting the volume to the reference volume positioin for the Ethan Frome opera work, 2.43VRMS is achieved, but the waveform is severely distorted at this gain setting at about 0dBFs, as was expected by the calculations I produced before testing. But is this really voltage limited distortion? It's easy enough to test by simply adding a 2nd battery cell in series with the first one. Figure (3) is with 16.70 VDC supply. Distortion is completely removed with the higher suppply voltage and the voltage output is now raised to the needed amplitude for the peaks in the Ethan Frome opera recording. The increments of voltage are not coincedence, they are the result of using 1 or 2 9VDC cells. The cells are about 1 or 2 hours used in the amp prior. They are still very good integrity, and this battery state was chosen to more closely represent slightly used(or rechargable with lower voltage) batteries.
((8.2VDC/2)-0.6)*0.707 = 2.47 VRMS theoretical maximum into a resistive load. However, 2.43 VRMS maximum was achieved. The actual load is not resistive, and the actual losses due to amplifier topology(0.6) may be slightly more than estimated.
5.48 VRMS is theotrically possible with the 16.70 VDC supply. 3.90 VRMS is what was measured at peak conditions under the preferred volume setting for the CD at subject in this analysis. Some headroom is leftover with the 16.70VDC supply. I did not measure the peak VRMS capability of the 16.70 VDC supply.
For effects of using a 9VDC supply on dynamic music as I specified eariler, it's easy to determine this(and it is blatantly audible as severe distortion in peaks) by looking at the waveform of the music, in relation to the dBFs relative measurements provided above. Between 1:40 and 2:00, several instances that are peaking at maximum possible value have occured, and severe distortion is heard. Note the average RMS values of this music. I have seperately highlited the first part and second part and provided an analysis for each, as well as the entire track, because of the large degree of variation of dynamics within the total track that would otherwise be masked by a single analysis. Note the histogram of relative dB distribution.
(http://www.linaeum.com/images/dt880_amptest_trackexample.gif)
For most music(since most is not very dynamic) no distortion would be a problem. But as I asserted earlier, it is a real problem using a single 9VDC supply amp on the DT880 with highly dynamic music.
-Chris
=WmAx]For most music(since most is not very dynamic) no distortion would be a problem. But as I asserted earlier, it is a real problem using a single 9VDC supply amp on the DT880 with highly dynamic music.
Would Beethoven's 5th and 9th symphonies suit you as dynamic enough? Or any of the other orchestral classical music I listen to entirely distortion-free with Go-Vibe/DT880 daily. Perhaps you're referring to a more dynamic musical genre than symphonic classical, but I can't think of one.
Although I've seen amps that measure better (amp is unshielded and sitting right next to the PC fwiw), there's nothing there that looks like clipping... it would be dead obvious. It's driving the headphones at ear-splitting levels, BTW... any louder and the drivers would be at risk of damage.
I don't know exactly what your reference point is supposed to be.
Reference point for what, clipping? It would show up on the RMAA test as severe distortion. I listened myself, and the test tones played through the amp at the proper volume for the RMAA software are *extremely* loud. No dynamic peak is going to be hitting that kind of volume, unless you want your eardrums blown out.
I don't know why you're so persistent in insinuating that the *go-vibe* in particular has trouble with high impedance cans. You do know that it's a matter of amp design and opamp choice as well as voltage, right? Well, I've both made a subjective claim that I never hear any distortion with the amp no matter how dynamic the material, and posted a test result that indicates strongly that there's no distortion at high volumes. If you care to buy a go-vibe and post contradictory results, there's a basis for further discussion... otherwise, I don't see any.
Reference point for what, clipping? It would show up on the RMAA test as severe distortion. I listened myself, and the test tones played through the amp at the proper volume for the RMAA software are *extremely* loud. No dynamic peak is going to be hitting that kind of volume, unless you want your eardrums blown out.
I just provided one of my favorite albums as a case in point. -30dB average RMS values, with +30dB peaks.
I don't know why you're so persistent in insinuating that the *go-vibe* in particular has trouble with high impedance cans. You do know that it's a matter of design as well as voltage, right? Well, I've both made a subjective claim that I never hear any distortion with the amp, and posted a test result that indicates strongly that there's no distortion. If you care to buy a go-vibe and post contradictory results, there's a basis for discussion... otherwise, I don't see any.
Your measurements did not correlate with any known levels. I provided correlation to actual measured SPL and to a specific dynamic musical track, as well as showing the results of voltage limited distortion in reference to both. It does not matter what design your Go-Vibe uses, it can not possible reproduce very dynamic music(such as Ethan Frome) on the DT880 without distorting due to it's limited rail voltage supply.
-Chris
Your measurements did not correlate with any known levels. I provided correlation to actual measured SPL and to a specific dynamic musical track, as well as showing the results of voltage limited distortion in reference to both. It does not matter what design your Go-Vibe uses, it can not possible reproduce very dynamic music(such as Ethan Frome) on the DT880 without distorting due to it's limited rail voltage supply.
False. Sorry about your incapable POS headphone amplifier, I recommend you get yourself a better one that doesn't distort with a 9v supply.
BTW, I've heard bad things about Shellbrook and your results don't surprise me. It's probably a matter of inadequate PS capacitance not being able to respond properly to dynamic peaks. If you think voltage is all that matters, you need some electronics courses.
False. Sorry about your incapable POS headphone amplifier, I recommend you get yourself a better one that doesn't distort with a 9v supply.
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Since you have resorted to this level of response[
a random and baseless profane comment], I will no longer reply to you within this thread.
-Chris
Heh, you would have to have expanded an acronym, which happens in your mind and not here on the forum. Anyway, you continue to neglect the importance of power supply capacitance in responding to dynamic peaks, so I just assume you need more education in basic electronics... no reply necessary.
P.S. I suggest you look up what the go-vibe website means when it lists:
"2 x Panasonic 1800uF power supply caps"
Hint: What are these parts used for?
Heh, you would have to have expanded an acronym, which happens in your mind and not here on the forum. Anyway, you continue to neglect the importance of power supply capacitance in responding to dynamic peaks, so I just assume you need more education in basic electronics... no reply necessary.
P.S. I suggest you look up what the go-vibe website means when it lists:
"2 x Panasonic 1800uF power supply caps"
Hint: What are these parts used for?
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I am breaking my promise of silence to remind you of an important technical matter: One can add all the capacitance that they wish, but it will not increase the rail voltage beyond the battery voltage. Simple review of my posted data demonstrates
voltage limited distortion. One can not exceed the rail voltage.
-Chris
I am breaking my promise of silence to remind you of an important technical matter: One can add all the capacitance that they wish, but it will not increase the rail voltage beyond the battery voltage. Simple review of my posted data demonstrates voltage limited distortion. One can not exceed the rail voltage.
Your measurements with a particular amp at 9v still don't prove a thing with an entirely different (op)amp at 9v.
There are several amps out there that run on 3v or less... would you like me to point them out? If they had clipping on dynamic peaks (which is a dead-obvious distortion that a completely uneducated ear can hear) they would have been returned in droves and redesigned to use a higher voltage.
What voltage do PCI sound cards use? How many people here have used HD580s directly from their soundcard without distortion? I assure you, there are some.
Bottom line -- I do not accept your assertion that 9v is inadequate for higher impedance headphones, sorry.
However, it does look like 9v is inadequate for the amp you tested. If it were me, I would return it to the builder and complain VERY loudly until s/he refunded my money. Just because an amp is portable doesn't mean that it should be limited to low impedance cans. I meant what I said, if it distorts at 9v with high impedance headphones then it is a piece of **** (unless maybe its limitations are clearly indicated to the would-be purchaser).
There are several amps out there that run on 3v or less... would you like me to point them out? If they had clipping on dynamic peaks (which is a dead-obvious distortion that a completely uneducated ear can hear) they would have been returned in droves and redesigned to use a higher voltage.
You can use any op amp that you wish, but regardless of cost, brand or reputation, it can not create voltage that does not exist. Their are exactly two ways to increase the amplifier's output voltage beyond the battery's inherant limitation; (1) use a DC-DC convertor [or] (2) use an output transformer on the audio outputs.
However, it does look like 9v is inadequate for the amp you tested. If it were me, I would return it to the builder and complain VERY loudly until s/he refunded my money. Just because an amp is portable doesn't mean that it should be limited to low impedance cans.
Return an amplifier on the grounds that it can not create voltage beyond the rail voltage? That does not make sense.
-Chris
Return an amplifier on the grounds that it can not create voltage beyond the rail voltage? That does not make sense.
Return it for not performing properly as an amplifier -- which means, amplifying headphones without distortion. You mean, you would really keep it?
Return an amplifier on the grounds that it can not create voltage beyond the rail voltage? That does not make sense.
Return it for not performing properly as an amplifier -- which means, amplifying headphones without distortion. You mean, you would really keep it?
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Illogical comment[
because there is no evidence to support the amplifier is at fault or defective] based on the available data. Refer to previous posts, especially my analysis, that outlines the rules of available RMS voltage.
-Chris
This is nuts. I'm contacting the maker of the go-vibe to investigate your claim. He has multiple years of experience building a wide variety of amps (not just DIY stuff, but his own designs).
If I'm wrong, I will say so openly here (and go have my ears checked). If not, I will discredit your claims. Perhaps he'd be interested in joining the discussion (although I doubt it, he has a day job in addition to building amps).
This is nuts. I'm contacting the maker of the go-vibe to investigate your claim. He has multiple years of experience building a wide variety of amps (not just DIY stuff, but his own designs).
If I'm wrong, I will say so openly here (and go have my ears checked). If not, I will discredit your claims. Perhaps he'd be interested in joining the discussion (although I doubt it, he has a day job in addition to building amps).
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What is it that you question from me exactly? That you can not exceed the available rail voltage of the amplifier?
-Chris
What is it that you question from me exactly? That you can not exceed the available rail voltage of the amplifier?
"There's a guy on a forum I frequent who is insisting that nine volts is not enough to amplify high impedance headphones like the HD580 or DT880 without distortion, given very dynamic music."
Satisfied?
What is it that you question from me exactly? That you can not exceed the available rail voltage of the amplifier?
"There's a guy on a forum I frequent who is insisting that nine volts is not enough to amplify high impedance headphones like the HD580 or DT880 without distortion, given very dynamic music."
Satisfied?
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'Highly dynamic music' should be specifically defined as
music with a RMS average power of -30dB, with 30dB peaks/crest factor that max out at about 0 dBFs, since that is what my example defines. Otherwise, he may not be able to predict the specific values you mean by 'highly dynamic music'.
-Chris
'Highly dynamic music' should be specifically defined as music with a RMS average power of -30dB, with 30dB peaks/crest factor that max out at about 0 dBFs, since that is what my example defines. Otherwise, he may not be able to predict the specific values you mean by 'highly dynamic music'.
Fine, I'll point that out and refer him to this thread, if he wants to read it.
Enough discussion for me tonight... have a good one.
I have an idea in the meantime: Supply me with a clip of the music in question in FLAC format. I'll loop it back through my soundcard with the amp in the chain, driving 300 ohm headphones, and post the resulting D->A->D file.
Well WmAx... you convinced me to not take any chances, so I modded the go-vibe for 18v operation. No harm in it anyway, the PS caps are 25v.
P.S. I didn't get a straight answer from the Go-Vibe's builder, so I guess people can just decide for themselves based on their own measurements and/or listening tests. Based on my understanding of electronics (which is admittedly not at Ph.D. level) I still disagree with you -- there's nothing magical about some particular voltage, it's the design of the amp that counts. But why take chances.
I still disagree with you -- there's nothing magical about some particular voltage, it's the design of the amp that counts. But why take chances.
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Nothing magical about it. My music requires voltage beyond the amount available with a 9VDC supply. Maybe your music does not have the same magnitude of peaks. Or maybe the peaks are at or near the same magnitude, but are short enough in duration that it is hard to hear the clipping when it occurs. Unfortunately, I have several examples in my music where the peaks are sustained frequently enough that the clipping is very noticable and distracting.
-9VDC supplied amp can
pratically supply about 2.4 VRMS, or 2.76VRMS under absolute ideal conditions(which involves a brand new fresh battery).
-The DT880 requires 1.72 VRMS to reach 96dB.
-The very dynamic work that I used as an example has an average RMS level of -30dBFs in most of the content, with several continous significant peaks at about 0dBFs.
-If I listen to the music at an averaged volume level at 73dB(this now means that -30dBFs is 73dB), that means I need to be able to reach 103dB to accomodate the 30dB peaks. Note: I did not even listen at 73dB on average when I set the volume for cofortable listening in the analysis. I was trying to find an absolute minimum acceptable volume level. But 73dB is perfectly reasonable, and if my environment had not been totally silent I would have wanted to listen at about 73dB average for this particulare selection.
-Refer back to the 1.72 VRMS = approx. 96dB on the DT880(as the actual measured response to that voltage)
-To reach 103dB requires over 4 VRMS
-4VRMS is not availabe on a 9VDC powered amp(unless DC-DC convertor is used internally to boost voltage, or a transformer is used on the audio outputs).
-Chris
So let's sum up in layman's language: You played extremely dynamic and loud music at an earsplitting volume, and found that the amp didn't react well. Crank practically anything up and it will distort.
DT880 on a G0-VIBE?
Yep. No problems here, and neither will most people it seems.
So let's sum up in layman's language: You played extremely dynamic and loud music at an earsplitting volume, and found that the amp didn't react well.
I was not aware that 70-73dB was considered ear-splitting.
-Chris
You are an intractably stubborn fellow. You honestly don't believe that the design of the amp plays *any* part in this experience of yours?
You are an intractably stubborn fellow. You honestly don't believe that the design of the amp plays *any* part in this experience of yours?
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The only limitation evidenced is one of voltage.
-Chris
BTW... could a moderator move this part of the discussion to a separate thread?
It's an interesting claim extending to people using their high impedance cans with soundcards, portable players, and any other device that supplies 9v or less to the opamp (or so I gather), but it is somewhat off-topic to the thread title and starter post IMO. If I'm wrong, then just deleting this post would do.
Huh. I didn't know you post here, MirrorSaw. Yeah, you need a headphone amplifier to adequately power high- and low- impedance headphones; low impedance headphones require more current to accurately reproduce bass frequencies (and thus benefit more from large coupled capacitors, such as the 2200 microfarads found in the PA2V2 or the 1800 microfarads in the Go-Vibe), while high impedance headphones require more voltage to excurse the drivers and avoid op-amp clipping.
An 'optimal' headphone amp need not be costly. For less than $80, one can get a Behringer UB1202 small size mixer which has a superbly performing hedphone amplifier
looks pretty coolish, how would this work in a case of:
sources:
- 2 computers
- 1 mic
- 1 dv tape device
output:
- boxes - yamaha msp3
- headphones
as permanent solution?
i just need something like that to defeat the cabling issues - for listening.
An 'optimal' headphone amp need not be costly. For less than $80, one can get a Behringer UB1202 small size mixer which has a superbly performing hedphone amplifier
looks pretty coolish, how would this work in a case of:
sources:
- 2 computers
- 1 mic
- 1 dv tape device
output:
- boxes - yamaha msp3
- headphones
as permanent solution?
i just need something like that to defeat the cabling issues - for listening.
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It would work perfectly for that situation, since you have multiple input sources(
12 channel inputs, 4 of which have mic preamps) and outputs(
a fixed tape line out can be used to the msp3 and then you have the seperate headphone amped output with it's own discrete volume control to use with headphones).
-Chris
Huh. I didn't know you post here, MirrorSaw. Yeah, you need a headphone amplifier to adequately power high- and low- impedance headphones; low impedance headphones require more current to accurately reproduce bass frequencies (and thus benefit more from large coupled capacitors, such as the 2200 microfarads found in the PA2V2 or the 1800 microfarads in the Go-Vibe), while high impedance headphones require more voltage to excurse the drivers and avoid op-amp clipping.
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The current provided by a typical portable audio player is sufficient to function properly with the overwhelming majority of low impedance headphones. In fact, such devices are designed with low impedance headphones in mind. Such excessive capacitance value as listed by your example serves no functional purpose in a
normal headphone amplifier. The real purpose seems be one of marketing.
-Chris
Huh. I didn't know you post here, MirrorSaw. Yeah, you need a headphone amplifier to adequately power high- and low- impedance headphones; low impedance headphones require more current to accurately reproduce bass frequencies (and thus benefit more from large coupled capacitors, such as the 2200 microfarads found in the PA2V2 or the 1800 microfarads in the Go-Vibe), while high impedance headphones require more voltage to excurse the drivers and avoid op-amp clipping.
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The current provided by a typical portable audio player is sufficient to function properly with the overwhelming majority of low impedance headphones. In fact, such devices are designed with low impedance headphones in mind. Such excessive capacitance value as listed by your example serves no functional purpose in a normal headphone amplifier. The real purpose seems be one of marketing.
-Chris
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The current provided by a typical portable audio player is usually less than 15ma per channel, which can lead to notable distortion with low impedance headphones that require more current draw - I'm not sure to which headphones you refer when you say "overwhelming majority;" I'm sure many of the exceptionally sensitive cheap headphones designed specifically for volume headroom and tuned for bass resonance are more than adequately driven by a portable player's voltage swing of less than 2v at less than 30ma total output current, but I wouldn't want to use less sensitive 32ohm headphones with any less than 50ma per channel available. Further, the capacitors are there primarily for dynamic headroom; they supply current for particularly taxing excursions where an op-amp's steady output would be insufficient. That's the "real purpose" of coupled output capacitors, nothing nefarious there (although I agree that 2200microfarad is rather in excess of what is necessary, especially with a low voltage op-amp, but it extends the flat response considerably beyond the audible spectrum and into sub/hypersonics).
The current provided by a typical portable audio player is usually less than 15ma per channel, which can lead to notable distortion with low impedance headphones that require more current draw
My typical audio player(Zen Extra) as a real-world example, has zero trouble providing 27mA per channel of continous current, when driving 32 0hms at it's full scale approx. 0.86VRMS. Distortions as measured under this condition are below any known audible thresholds.
- I'm not sure to which headphones you refer when you say "overwhelming majority;" I'm sure many of the exceptionally sensitive cheap headphones designed specifically for volume headroom and tuned for bass resonance are more than adequately driven by a portable player's voltage swing of less than 2v at less than 30ma total output current,
I refer to the overall 'vast majority', regardless of price, because there are few exceptions that are both low impedance and low sensitivity. Examples of low impedance headphones that are not cheap, that operate perfectly on the output voltage/current of a typical portable audio device on
most musical tracks: Sony MDR-R10, Sony MDR-CD3000, Grado RS-1, Sony MDR-010, Audio Technica ATH-900. In the case of very dynamic music, as my prior example, some may not have sufficient volume level, rendering the music too quiet. But no clipping should occur in these closed systems, because the gain should be limited to under the voltage driving ability of the internal amplifier when at 0dBFs.
Further, the capacitors are there primarily for dynamic headroom; they supply current for particularly taxing excursions where an op-amp's steady output would be insufficient. That's the "real purpose" of coupled output capacitors,
No one is claiming that capacitors should not be used in the power supply. But I am not sure what you are referring to as coupled output capacitors, because the 2200 uF caps in the amp you suggested, for example, should be power supply capacitors, not output coupling capacitors. I suspect you made a typo here.
nothing nefarious there (although I agree that 2200microfarad is rather in excess of what is necessary, especially with a low voltage op-amp, but it extends the flat response considerably beyond the audible spectrum and into sub/hypersonics).
I am not sure what you mean by this. Back to the typo, I think. Most portable amplifiers do not use coupling capacitors on the outputs. Many portable audio players do use output coupling capacitors, however, that may cause very low impedance(<30 ohms) cans to have a slight audibly attenuated low frequency response. Output coupling capacitors server as safety devices, protecting the transducers from DC related problems/amplifier shorts/etc.. The capacitors act as high-pass filters when used in series on an AC signal, such as the configuration of output coupling capacitors.
-Chris
I've gotten a reply from someone I consider an expert on these matters (who will remain unnamed, unless they wanted to join the thread themselves).
Under demanding conditions, 9V is inadequate for any high impedance headphones with any opamp.
So WmAx, it seems I owe you an apology for calling your amp a piece of ****, and for being confrontational. I apologize. It was something of a shock to find this out, given my own listening experience and the sheer number of lower voltage amps out there. I'm going to be much more selective in the future with amp choices (including built-in amps in devices like soundcards, portables, receivers, etc).
The current provided by a typical portable audio player is usually less than 15ma per channel, which can lead to notable distortion with low impedance headphones that require more current draw
My typical audio player(Zen Extra) as a real-world example, has zero trouble providing 27mA per channel of continous current, when driving 32 0hms at it's full scale approx. 0.86VRMS. Distortions as measured under this condition are below any known audible thresholds.
I refer to the overall 'vast majority', regardless of price, because there are few exceptions that are both low impedance and low sensitivity. Examples of low impedance headphones that are not cheap, that operate perfectly on the output voltage/current of a typical portable audio device on most musical tracks: Sony MDR-R10, Sony MDR-CD3000, Grado RS-1, Sony MDR-010, Audio Technica ATH-900. In the case of very dynamic music, as my prior example, some may not have sufficient volume level, rendering the music too quiet. But no clipping should occur in these closed systems, because the gain should be limited to under the voltage driving ability of the internal amplifier when at 0dBFs.
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The Zen Extra is a more powerful portable player than most, so while it is a real-world example it's not a "common" one (though it deserves to be, marketing can kiss my...). The iPod is specifically to what I was referring, with its famously weak output. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
Regarding the headphones mentioned, I'm more bothered by lack of dynamic headroom than I am by clipping (though both annoy me greatly and I'll take my tea without them, thank you), but you definitely have a point.
Further, the capacitors are there primarily for dynamic headroom; they supply current for particularly taxing excursions where an op-amp's steady output would be insufficient. That's the "real purpose" of coupled output capacitors,
No one is claiming that capacitors should not be used in the power supply. But I am not sure what you are referring to as coupled output capacitors, because the 2200 uF caps in the amp you suggested, for example, should be power supply capacitors, not output coupling capacitors. I suspect you made a typo here.
nothing nefarious there (although I agree that 2200microfarad is rather in excess of what is necessary, especially with a low voltage op-amp, but it extends the flat response considerably beyond the audible spectrum and into sub/hypersonics).
I am not sure what you mean by this. Back to the typo, I think. Most portable amplifiers do not use coupling capacitors on the outputs. Many portable audio players do use output coupling capacitors, however, that may cause very low impedance(<30 ohms) cans to have a slight audibly attenuated low frequency response. Output coupling capacitors server as safety devices, protecting the transducers from DC related problems/amplifier shorts/etc.. The capacitors act as high-pass filters when used in series on an AC signal, such as the configuration of output coupling capacitors.
-Chris
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Let's clear something up here, since neither of you seems to have adequately described the purpose of an output capacitor. Nearly all amps nowadays use split-rail power supplies and do not need output capacitors. Single-rail amps do need them but it has nothing to do with being "safety devices" or providing "dynamic headroom". They're an essential component without which the amp couldn't function. The output of a single-rail amp has a steady DC component of half the supply voltage on it and the output capacitor is simply a DC-blocking component. That capacitor also rolls off the lower frequency response and hence is undesirable (that's why split-rail supplies are more often used) but it can be mitigated by using a large value. The lower -3dB point can be calculated, knowing the impedance of the load.
It's worth pointing out that electolytic capacitors generally have a tolerance of -50/+100% of marked value, so be very pessimistic when deciding a value!