HydrogenAudio

Hydrogenaudio Forum => General Audio => Topic started by: zoliky on 2021-10-09 21:59:32

Title: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: zoliky on 2021-10-09 21:59:32
For Vinyl, do you include any of these words "Vinyl Rip", "LP", or something like "LP 24-96", "LP 24-192" in the name of the album?
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2021-10-09 22:47:41
I don't, but I do identify videos "ripped" from VHS.   I usually remember what albums I digitized because I only digitize vinyl when it's not available digitally.

...And I don't use 24/96 or 24/192 for "scratchy old records".  :P  
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: kode54 on 2021-10-09 23:03:07
The last vinyl I recorded from was only available in either vinyl or audio cassette tape, never CD. I recorded it at 44.1/16 using a USB turntable, and then cleaned it up a number of times with different methods using iZotope RX. Each time, I reverted to the original recording prior to trying newer methods and versions. The last version, I spliced up using Logic Pro, then saved to individual FLACs. The only thing really differentiating it from a CD rip is that the tracknumber field is filled with "A#" or "B#" depending on the side of the record.

For future work, I may consider using 96 or 192 and 24 bits, if possible, but only for the initial recording, and not for the final output. If only to give the processing plugins something more to chew on. They're already working in 32 bit floating point, extra frequency resolution would probably help with profiling noise versus signal. I'd still keep 44.1/16 or *maybe* 24 for final output, though. And I'd keep the multi-stage RX project files that maintain the full revision history of the work going back to the initial recording. Those come out to about 2.5-3GB per side.

Like DVDdoug, I'd only bother with this process for rare albums that never made it to a digital release. I'm not in the habit of even collecting vinyl for any other reason.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: j7n on 2021-10-10 08:06:09
Include the this information in the tags. It is not important to be visible all the time in the directory structure. For example, Media = Vinyl or Media = 12'' Vinyl, or whatever you like.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: Chibisteven on 2021-10-10 09:13:15
For Vinyl and Tape rips I use a tag "VINYLTAPESIDE" to identify the side of the tape or record.  An extremely rarely used feature of my music library that prefers digital sources or anything be produced like it's going to end up on a CD somehow.  This tag is specifically required and reserved for anything that comes on a tape or vinyl record that has 2 sides that has been digitalized.

Each track number is per disc or tape not per side in my library.

For discs with their own names I simply use "DISCSUBTITLE" (Vorbis Comment or ApeV2 tags), or "TSST" (ID3v2 tags).

I don't have a source identifier for my library but I could easily make one up or Google what it is specified in existing metadata formats.

There's different ways of tackling this kind of thing.  Use whatever works for you and your library.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: cresco on 2021-10-10 11:42:54
I like to search my library from a starting point of the "Album Title" tag so I tend to amend that tag so it it searchable for all sorts of things e.g. "Album Title" = "Thriller [Vinyl Rip]", or Thriller [mp3], or Thriller [Surround]
If there is both a Hi-res version and a CD red book rip "Thriller [HD]" or  "Thriller [CD]".

You can amend any tags which you find will be useful for searching your library according to your needs. Another obvious one to use may be to create new genres amending the genre tag e.g. "Pop [Vinyl Rip]".

This may be a no-no if you plan to use something like Roon software for playing your music because album identification will take a hit. If you use Foobar2000 or Kodi like I do amending tags works well.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: zoliky on 2021-10-10 12:40:24
The only reason I want to rip certain Vinyl records is because their CD versions are so loud and compressed that they are unpleasant to listen to on a computer. I'm talking about certain CDs released after 1995 such as Aerosmith's Get a Grip or Van Halen's Balance. The CD rips sound like garbage, but the Vinyl Rips sounds fine even with pops they're more pleasant to listen to.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: Roseval on 2021-10-10 20:29:41
The CD rips sound like garbage, but the Vinyl Rips sounds fine even with pops they're more pleasant to listen to.

Most media players do think tracks belong to an album if the [ALBUM] and [ARTIST] tags are the same.
So having both the CD rip and the vinyl rip you need something to differentiate be it "LP" or "CD" added to the album tag.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: cresco on 2021-10-11 09:30:13
Most media players do think tracks belong to an album if the [ALBUM] and [ARTIST] tags are the same.
So having both the CD rip and the vinyl rip you need something to differentiate be it "LP" or "CD" added to the album tag.

Roseval makes a very important point. It is the reason I began amending the Album Title tag where there are more than one version.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: Porcus on 2021-10-11 10:55:49
One way to make sure they are differentiated, would be to use a different file format than FLAC. Like, WavPack with embedded cuesheet if you don't want to do the job of splitting the files, and then edit the cuesheet if track transition times are off. For a starting point you can hope to find a cuesheet that works at https://www.regeert.nl/cuesheet/ .

Media = Vinyl or Media = 12'' Vinyl, or whatever you like.
Beware that if you at some stage run a masstagging job with an external source, this "whatever you like" may be overwritten if that application also "likes it". IIRC, musicbrainz tagging might use something like MEDIA TYPE, MEDIATYPE or MEDIA_TYPE.

So I use ALBUMVERSION. Both for different CD masterings and for different media sources.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: j7n on 2021-10-11 11:28:51
According to the mappings on the Picard site (https://picard-docs.musicbrainz.org/en/appendices/tag_mapping.html) it's MEDIA for both Ape and Vorbis, same with the Foobar2000 tagger component. But it breaks down Vinyl into dimensions. Masstagging can change the metadata in many ways (capitalization, adding suffixes to track names, wrong cat numbers), and shouldn't be done lightly.

I see a post highlighting different interpretations in ID3 (TMED), but that is only for mp3 and related.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: pr0m3th3u5 on 2021-10-15 19:38:08
[...]  I'd still keep 44.1/16 or *maybe* 24 for final output, though. And I'd keep the multi-stage RX project files that maintain the full revision history of the work going back to the initial recording. Those come out to about 2.5-3GB per side.

If I a may ask why 44.1kHz instead of 48kHz? I mean most sound cards convert to 48kHz right?
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: kode54 on 2021-10-16 01:08:41
That's not a guarantee. You can do what you want, though. For instance, my device claims to support 44100, 48000, 88200, and 96000. It also emits a lot of noise that's inaudible at normal listening levels, except for sometimes when it's about to go into sleep mode.

48000 is fine, I guess.

(For instance, I actually recorded at 44100, because this external USB device only did that or 48k, and I don't know why I didn't go with 48k.)
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: Chibisteven on 2021-10-16 02:57:47
If I a may ask why 44.1kHz instead of 48kHz? I mean most sound cards convert to 48kHz right?

It's hard to know exactly what a sound card will output best at without a lot of trial and error or testing and even that can change if the same sound card is put in a different computer.  Windows lets you configure the default sample rate and this can be helpful with sound cards that work better at some rates but not others.  I had a card that worked great at 192 KHz in one computer, put it in a different computer and the same card could only work reliably at 44.1 KHz multiples, the 48 KHz multiples all played at lower pitches and got worse when the rate was higher.  Best case and the more common case is that an audio interface will work fine at all supported rates.

There are some audio interfaces out there that convert everything to 48 KHz internally with their internal DSPs, most of them are under the Creative brand.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: itisljar on 2021-10-16 11:42:14
I encode vinyls to lossy.flac :) that's the only difference. Also, I add source type to comment.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: DARcode on 2021-10-18 23:47:34
[...] The only thing really differentiating it from a CD rip is that the tracknumber field is filled with "A#" or "B#" depending on the side of the record. [...]
For some reason I've never thought of that, I've juts been adding the LP side to the comments, I'm gonna retag'em all now.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: soundping on 2021-10-19 00:18:58
It's not just the computer sound card, but the record player may only be putting out 16bit/44.100 at best.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: soundping on 2021-10-19 02:13:25
It's not just the computer sound card, but the record player may only be putting out 16bit/44.100 at best.
Most likely, it's 16bit - 120Hz-16kHz
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: zoliky on 2022-01-11 21:53:50
Do you think it is acceptable to use the term "Vinyl Transfer" instead of "Vinyl Rip"?
I think "Transfer" looks better. Rip can also mean rest in peace for someone not tech savvy when sees my library.

/Music Folder/
  + / Artist Name /
      + Album Name
      + Album Name {MFSL Remaster}
      + Album Name {Vinyl Transfer}

Normal CDs don't get any tagging. I was wondering if using "Transfer" is okay.
Or should I just use "Vinyl" Maybe adding "Transfer" is just clutter?

      + Album Name {Vinyl}
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: NateHigs on 2022-01-12 09:41:08
I don't differentiate. Why would I have two copies of the same album?
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: NateHigs on 2022-01-12 09:46:18
It's not just the computer sound card, but the record player may only be putting out 16bit/44.100 at best.
Most likely, it's 16bit - 120Hz-16kHz

Not sure where you got that idea from. A record car do anywhere from subsonic to ultra sonic. With distortion and wow/flutter, but it's not really band limited like that. 120Hz is ridiculous - there's at minimum two octaves below that.

16bit is likely more than enough but I do 24bit, I mean why not?

The screen below is from an old, beat up, Jamaican 45 - so not audiophile stuff by any means. You can clearly see it has content into the 20kHz range.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: Porcus on 2022-01-12 11:08:26
Old discussion. There was even a format based on the fact that vinyl could capture 30 kHz: that was the carrier tone on quadrophonic records. (Possibly fragile enough to make for a few disgruntled customers, but still.)
And yes there was bass in the old records. AFAICgoogle, some hardware devices would have selectable filter frequencies 75/150/300, but that was for downmixing bass to mono, not for filtering away bass. Don't confuse that with subsonic filters in pre-amps - they would be ... subsonic.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2022-01-13 15:50:38
Quote
Do you think it is acceptable to use the term "Vinyl Transfer" instead of "Vinyl Rip"?
There are no "rules"!  ;)

When I'm speaking or writing I say, "Digitized vinyl", or "I'm working on digitizing a vinyl record", etc.   If I was going to tag the file, I'd use "From Vinyl".

I've made a few DVDs from VHS and I put a sticker on the case that says "From VHS" and with digital files on my hard drive I'll include "from VHS" in the file or folder name along with the release year.   For example "Back To The Future (1985 from VHS)".   ...That's just a popular movie example...  I didn't actually copy Back To The Future from VHS.    

I've never liked the term "rip" but I use it when talking about CDs.  Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping) says it only applies to digitally extracting the audio (and/or video) when analog-to-digital conversion is not involved.   
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: vilsen on 2022-01-14 13:37:47
Or should I just use "Vinyl" Maybe adding "Transfer" is just clutter?

      + Album Name {Vinyl}
That's what I would do. The rip/transfer/extraction part is obvious and doesn't need to be pointed out.

And perhaps I would include some details (e.g. LP, EP, single, 12") either in the ALBUM tag itself or in a dedicated tag for this purpose.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: zoliky on 2022-01-14 14:04:22
Thank you.
The tag "From Vinyl" will work fine. I have some albums purchased from Bandcamp, for those I can use something like "From Web", so there will be some consistency in naming at least.

The reason I need this separation is because I don't want the media playing software to join the two together when having the same album name. The one without tag is the CD and the other one is the Vinyl Transfer.

X

UPDATE: or as vilsen suggested. I saw his post after I pressed the submit button. Sorry.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: 2tec on 2022-01-14 16:32:37
I digitalize analog often. I add the term Tape or Vinyl to the album's title to differentiate it from other versions. I use Audacity's workflow but I rarely need all the steps as most of the vinyl or tape is in near mint condition. I also don't adjust the amplitude or use compression as I'm careful to record at as high a level as possible, even if it means pre-recording an entire album, or changing recording levels per track if necessary. A SpinClean record washer helped the most.

https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/sample_workflow_for_lp_digitization.html

Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: Porcus on 2022-01-14 16:32:56
So I use ALBUMVERSION. Both for different CD masterings and for different media sources.

Of course, if you don't care to type up different masterings with versions like "1999 remaster dynamic range=2" in folder name, and you only have CD rips, digitized vinyl and purchases ... here you can be a bit fancy if you like.
* EAC and dBpoweramp and CUERipper would get you the CDDB disc id in some tag name. EAC uses <DISCID> I think, dBpoweramp uses <CDDB DISC ID>.
* The CDDB ID is eight characters (hexadecimal: 0 through F).
* OK, you got eight characters. "vinylrip" is eight characters. "download" is eight, "AmazonDL" is eight, "iTunesDL" is eight, "googleDL" is eight (yes I know Google music is shut down), "artistDL" is eight, "Bandcamp" is eight. And none of these are hex numbers.  Edit: "cassette" is eight too ;)

So if you want to avoid collisions between an album and a CD single of the album title track etc., you can use these eight characters at the end of the folder name. You might get clashes if you have multiple versions of the same album, but rarely. YMMV.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: NateHigs on 2022-01-15 09:36:50
Thank you.
The tag "From Vinyl" will work fine. I have some albums purchased from Bandcamp, for those I can use something like "From Web", so there will be some consistency in naming at least.

The reason I need this separation is because I don't want the media playing software to join the two together when having the same album name. The one without tag is the CD and the other one is the Vinyl Transfer.

[attach type=thumb]21735[/attach]

UPDATE: or as vilsen suggested. I saw his post after I pressed the submit button. Sorry.

Why have them both? Pick the one you like the sound of, keep that
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: zoliky on 2022-01-17 14:57:05
So I use ALBUMVERSION. Both for different CD masterings and for different media sources.

Of course, if you don't care to type up different masterings with versions like "1999 remaster dynamic range=2" in folder name, and you only have CD rips, digitized vinyl and purchases ... here you can be a bit fancy if you like.
* EAC and dBpoweramp and CUERipper would get you the CDDB disc id in some tag name. EAC uses <DISCID> I think, dBpoweramp uses <CDDB DISC ID>.
* The CDDB ID is eight characters (hexadecimal: 0 through F).
* OK, you got eight characters. "vinylrip" is eight characters. "download" is eight, "AmazonDL" is eight, "iTunesDL" is eight, "googleDL" is eight (yes I know Google music is shut down), "artistDL" is eight, "Bandcamp" is eight. And none of these are hex numbers.  Edit: "cassette" is eight too ;)

So if you want to avoid collisions between an album and a CD single of the album title track etc., you can use these eight characters at the end of the folder name. You might get clashes if you have multiple versions of the same album, but rarely. YMMV.

I was thinking in including the dynamic range inside the FLAC files.
I think I can have a custom tag like ALBUMDR and another tag named TRACKDR.
ALBUMDR is the DR value (average) for the entire album, and TRACKDR is the value for a single FLAC file.

Code: [Select]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------	
 Analyzed: Aerosmith /  Artist: Aerosmith
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Title [codec]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 DR11 -2.13 dB -14.16 dB 3:39 01 - Make It [flac]
 DR10 -2.71 dB -14.54 dB 3:45 02 - Somebody [flac]
 DR10 -1.62 dB -14.85 dB 4:25 03 - Dream On [flac]
 DR11 -1.30 dB -13.87 dB 7:00 04 - One Way Street [flac]
 DR11 -1.32 dB -14.45 dB 4:25 05 - Mama Kin [flac]
 DR10 -2.81 dB -14.61 dB 4:09 06 - Write Me a Letter [flac]
 DR11 -1.40 dB -14.49 dB 5:00 07 - Movin' Out [flac]
 DR11 -0.93 dB -15.40 dB 3:12 08 - Walkin' the Dog [flac]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Number of files:    8
 Official DR value:  DR11

 Sampling rate: 44100 Hz
 Average bitrate: 819kbs
 Bits per sample: 16 bit

Dr14 T.meter 1.0.16
==============================================================================================

ALBUMDR=DR11, then for TRACKDR I set a different value depending on the track/

This would allow me to sort albums based on dynamic range. I think it's a little bit time consuming in adding all the values but I think it also worth it.
Title: Re: When you rip Vinyl records to FLAC how do differentiate them from CD rips?
Post by: Porcus on 2022-01-17 16:41:16
I was thinking in including the dynamic range inside the FLAC files.
https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Foobar2000:Components/Dynamic_Range_Meter_(foo_dynamic_range)

Can be set to write tags. I've only very rarely had crashes with it - just don't do any other tag update simultaneously.
(If you have albums of the kind that have silent tracks number 17 to 98 and a bonus track on 99, then exclude them or they will pull the album dynamic range down to a useless figure.)