Hello, new member here. As with many posters that I have read from on this forum, I came here after feeling way too greasy with snake oil from the 'audiophile' sites, and googling my way here via NwAvGuy's blog.
I hope to get some advice from you, much more knowledgable than me about these technical issues, and help me cut through the marketing speak.
Currently, I'm listening to my music and movies through my PC. I'm quite happy with the Realtek audio output of my Asus P8P67 - when I chose this board I paid attention to a good implementation, as in low noise and distortion. I'm using a Sennheiser HD595, and am looking at a Sennheiser HD700 or Beyer T90 or AKG701 next. Some of these might be needing some extra power, not sure. That made me look into an external DAC/amp combo, since I'll be changing systems soon and I may no longer have the luxury selecting a board with good sound. I'd like a solution I can use for many years to come.
I'd like to hear the sound as it was meant, and thus keep the coloring an amp or DAC adds to a minimum. That got me to the ODAC/Objective and NwAvGuy's blog. This looks like what I want except for some 'details' that really irk me (I'm a pretty fussy guy in some regards, unfortunately). Those are mainly how the device looks - exteral power brick/wall wart, cables all cluttering the front, and a tiny design that looks like I need pincers to change the volume (I have big hands). It would't hurt to have it look a bit nice too, since it will sit right next to me on my desk all the time of day.
So my first question: is someone offering the ODAC/Objective design in an integrated powersupply variant, in a decent case?
Sofar I have not found such a thing, so I looked around for alternatives. This turned out to be very hard. Too much blabbing, not enough facts. I can't even find out the headphone output impedance of most devices I found.
So my second request for help would be - which of the following would adhere best to the ODAC/Objective adage of being just a gain on a wire? And if you know, could you tell me how much the headphone output impedance is?
I'm looking at the Marantz HD-DAC1, Pioneer U-05, Teac Ai101, Teac UD301, Sony UDA1 (although this seems to have the headphone out as an afterthought), Onkyo CR-N765, Denon PMA-50 and the Asus Essence One series. Any alternatives you might suggest are also welcome - I have no preference for brands.
Thanks for putting up with me!
NwAvGuy reviewed a number of other DACs, some of which were quite good even in comparison to his. Have you looked through those?
However, I should note that the headphones you list are all moderate impedance and relatively high sensitivity, making an amp as capable as the O2 somewhat less important.
I read a few of them, but they're pretty old and not all can still even be found. In fact, even the ODAC/Objective is hard to find, just a few dealers have it and may take time to ship. The custom version for instance at least had the power input at the back (though it still used the external brick) but this is no longer for sale it seems. He has not posted on his blog for over 4 years, unfortunately.
Yes, the headphones listed are not that fussy, but I do need an external device, as I explained. And I'd like it to be future proof.
If I didn't already own a Benchmark DAC, here's what I might own:
http://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1 (http://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1)
Looks like a nice versatile unit which can be used as a regular preamplifier too. I am lazy and enjoy being able to select from a number of different digital sources at the push of a button.
ODAC and O2 are great but I prefer O2 with 2x 9V batteries onboard, because I discovered that if one powers down a battery-less O2 at the power strip, it emits a whopping pulse of DC. At the time, I had powered speakers connected: That was interesting.
http://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1 (http://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1)
You could get an entire receiver for that price.
Thanks for the Stealth SP-1 link, looks like another alternative. Does it sound neutral?
Thanks for the Stealth SP-1 link ... Does it sound neutral?
Specs say that at 44.1K sample rate and 16 bit word length it has:
20 Hz -20 kHz flat to wtihin +/- 0.1 dB
0.00033% THD or less
95 dB signal to noise ratio.
I think that qualifies as a "Yes".
No hard numbers for output impedance except for "Very low output impedance and a flat, load invariant frequency response".
I found a French website that did a review of the Pioneer U-05 and Marantz HD-DAC1, with some measurements. I can't say if they did those properly, but here are the results.
Test settings
sampling mode 24bit 48kHz
testing chain external loopback
20Hz-20kHz filter ON
Normalize amplitude ON
level change -0.4dB/-0.4dB
mono mode off
calibration signal 1000 Hz
polarity correct/correct
Pioneer U-05
Freq response from 40Hz to 15kHz in dB: +0.03, -0.24
Noise level dB(A): -116.1
Dynamic Range dB(A): 115.9
THD, %: 0.00007
THD + Noise, dB(A): -93.5
IMD + Noise, %: 0.0019
Stereo crosstalk, dB: -104.0
IMD at 10 kH, %: 0.016
Marantz HD-DAC1
Freq response from 40Hz to 15kHz in dB: +0.09, -0.24
Noise level dB(A): -96.9
Dynamic Range dB(A): 96.9
THD, %: 0.016
THD + Noise, dB(A): -73.6
IMD + Noise, %: 0.219
Stereo crosstalk, dB: -76.9
IMD at 10 kH, %: 0.0086
How do these look? I kind of expect Marantz not to sound neutral, but I'm not familiar enough with these measurments to tell. Also, the stereo crosstalk is a factor important for how good a soundstage is formed, right? So is the Marantz poor in this regard?
The website is www.audiovideohd.fr
EDIT: dropping the Emotiva. No dealers or support whatsoever here, and having to pay taxes on re-import in case of repairs is for me a showstopper. I need something that can be purchased/returned if necessary/repaired locally. The list I have in my first post has those brands. But please don't let that deter you from suggesting others.
How do these look? I kind of expect Marantz not to sound neutral, but I'm not familiar enough with these measurments to tell. Also, the stereo crosstalk is a factor important for how good a soundstage is formed, right? So is the Marantz poor in this regard?
Better than about -20dB (and -76dB is stratospherically better than -20dB) is easy to measure but extremely difficult to hear in normal loudspeaker listening. Much easier to detect with headphones and signals in a single channel, but not if you use a digital crossfeed. :-)
No harm in being better, but it's helpful to understand what's audible and what isn't / what matters and what doesn't.
There is harm if some
other quantity that wasn't measured is audibly problematic on the one with "better" measurements. I'm not saying for one minute that this is the case here; I have no idea.
Cheers,
David.
None of the reported test results should make an audible difference between the Pioneer and the Marantz. I am a bit surprised, however, that the Marantz seems to be significantly worse that what should be easily achievable using modern electronics.
Thanks! The Marantz isn't top of my list anyway (these are the headphone amp results, DAC mode was even worse) because of the tacky plastic sides. Putting fake wood on a device kinda makes me wonder how fake the rest is too. I know that's no reason to diss the Marantz, measured results are all that counts, but from a marketing/design point of view, it seems kind of a stupid thing to do. Just use real wood.
OK, found another French site with similar measurements of the Teac UD-301.
Test settings
sampling mode 24bit 48kHz
testing chain external loopback
20Hz-20kHz filter OFF (which is different from the Pioneer/Marantz tests)
Normalize amplitude ON
level change -0.0dB/-0.1dB
mono mode off
calibration signal 1000 Hz
polarity correct/correct
Teac UD-301
Freq response from 40Hz to 15kHz in dB: +0.01, -0.19
Noise level dB(A): -109.1
Dynamic Range dB(A): 108.9
THD, %: 0.0004
THD + Noise, dB(A): -100.6
IMD + Noise, %: 0.0018
Stereo crosstalk, dB: -105.1
IMD at 10 kH, %: 0.024
If I learned a little from your comments, this looks good. However, they use one different setting (see red text). Does this make the results comparable or would the results be much different with the filter ON? And these results may be for the DAC output, I can't tell for sure if these are valid for the headphone output, unfortunately.
Also, they rate the Teac (www.hdfever.fr) down because of a serious quality issue on the USB input:
Rien qu’en prenant les mesures coaxiale > RCA les relevés de bruit et gamme dynamique indiquent jusqu’à 25-30 dB de différence, 10 dB sur la diaphonie, une distorsion décuplée, etc. C’est colossal.
What this translates to is that they measured on the coax input, and the measurments of the USB input showed a 25-30dB worse dynamic range, 10dB worse on stereo crosstalk and a doubled distortion value etc.
Is such a thing really possible? USB is digital after all, so the problem would be on the Teac internals. But at this level, is this more likely a defective sample, or do such things actually happen to 'big name brands' like Teac?
Filter off may be NOS mode like with the 501 http://archimago.blogspot.de/2013/05/measurements-teac-ud-501-pcm-performance.html
I have a O2/ODAC stack from massdrop. Their version was assembled in China (hence the cheaper price). The options available through massdrop meant all the connections (except the headphone jack) are in the back so it's pretty clean looking from the front (the "desktop" version). The power supply is external but I think that's desirable from an interference perspective. The volume knob is a good size and had some resistance so minute adjustments are easy. It has a rubber o-ring to enhance grip.
I did have to send my first O2 Amp back due to a problem with one of the channels losing power but it was replaced quickly within days with a good unit. I drive everything from IEMs to the 250 ohm version of the Beyerdynamics DT-990 to Sennheiser HD-800. For gain, I ended up with 1.0x and 3.3x combination. With ODAC as the source, 6.5x was way too much power. (my original was 2.5x/6.5x unit and the replacement unit was 1.0x/3.3x).
There was some discussion in the massdrop forum about the quality of the units vs JDS Labs or Mayflower but not having dealt with those companies' products, I can't say much there. I do believe warranty service and tech support in general is much better with them. Also there were some talk regarding the included wall warts being "under spec" but I haven't experienced any issues. Others have upgraded to "up to spec" power supplies but no difference in sound were reported.
Good hunting.
Is such a thing really possible? USB is digital after all, so the problem would be on the Teac internals. But at this level, is this more likely a defective sample, or do such things actually happen to 'big name brands' like Teac?
USB is digital but the amplifiers and other components are still analog. Sounds like they screwed something up and didn't properly isolate the USB lines from the analog parts.
What this translates to is that they measured on the coax input, and the measurments of the USB input showed a 25-30dB worse dynamic range, 10dB worse on stereo crosstalk and a doubled distortion value etc.
Ground loop maybe.
Also, it is useful to remember about RMAA flaws: http://nwavguy.blogspot.ru/2011/02/rightmark-audio-analyzer-rmaa.html
Output impedance specs are conspicuously absent: I'd think that could potentially make the biggest audible difference for a headphone amplifier.
Teac: Yes, sounds like a possible ground loop issue, had this happen with an HP notebook computer + cheap USB DAC: If both were grounded, noise floor would rise dramatically, but if I ran the computer from battery power, all was well. I'm thinking the degraded crosstalk and distortion performance would still be far below audibility if we're talking 0.0008% and -95.1 dB respectively.
4season, I can't find the output impedance on any of the listed devices. That is, the headphone output, the other outputs often do get their impedance listed. It's very frustrating.
As for the ground loop issue, I take it this is still a problem with the Teac? As saratoga mentioned, they should design it so that the USB is separated between device and PC? Or is this something that can happen to any device depending on the circumstances and I need a galvanic isolator 'inbetween' gadget to solve this?
I'm striking the Onkyo and Denon from my list. I simply cannot find any real data on them, just "audiophile poetry" that doubles as a review. Pity, because the Denon really had the features I needed and I could use it standing on its side. The Onkyo had a lot of kit I don't need (CD drive, network radio). Both did get the standard reviews at the usual places, but no-one seemed interested to look at the headphone output, so I'm guessing these devices weren't intended for headphone use to begin with.
Filter off may be NOS mode like with the 501 http://archimago.blogspot.de/2013/05/measurements-teac-ud-501-pcm-performance.html
Wombat, is this site reliable? He seems to know what he's talking about, and relies on measurments. The reason I'm confirming is that he puts the Asus below the Teac. The Teac having some problems as described (though it's the UD-301) and a few remarks I found on Head-Fi (I think, don't remember the place, I should have bookmarked it) where they complained about the build quality of the new much more expensive 503 - cold solder points and such, really unacceptable in this price range - my confidence in Teac as a brand is somewhat shaken.
That would mean the Teac and the Asus would be striken from my list. Damn.
Wombat, is this site reliable? He seems to know what he's talking about, and relies on measurments.
He does his best but has no multi thousand $ measuring equipment. The units he tests he usualy uses himself and nothing is sponsored. I like his approach.
I've been reading his tests for a couple of hours now, he does seem to be quite down to earth. A valuable resource, thanks for sharing it!
The Teac does get good results and he seems to like it. However he does mention the headphone amp is not very powerful and some headphones like the AKG Q701 would have troubles. This is interesting for me, because 100mW 32Ohm does not really mean anything to me, is it powerful or weak? Now I have a reference.
What power level should I be looking for as a minimum, so that I don't have to worry about future headphones? Would 180mW/32Ohm be enough, or would you really need the whopping 800mW/32Ohm of the Marantz?
180 mW into 32 ohms is 2.4 volts, which is pretty respectable. I doubt you'd want something higher unless you were planning to buy some really unusual headphones.
Correction, my mistake, the Marantz is 2x400mW. The Pioneer is 2x180mW. Just in case anyone's wondering.
Thanks all for your help! I learned a lot, and through a proces of elimination am left with the Pioneer U-05.
I struck the Denon, Onkyo and Sony because I could not find much on them as far as the headphone output is concerned. And the Sony turns out has a fan at the back.
The Teac UD-301 did not look pretty on the inside. Cable bridges on boards, looked like it was thrown in the case, transformer unshielded, and a USB issue, possible ground loop. The UD-501 is more expensive, looks better built, and did get a good review from Archimago, but shares the somewhat underpowered headphone output of the UD-301. And overall, I do keep finding people having reliability issues with these devices (having to send them in for repair or exchange). Really a pity, I liked the look of the Teac case design.
Archimago had some issues with the Asus Essence One, and considering the price is the same as other devices, I decided to delist this one too.
I really wanted to like the Marantz, great look, some interesting features, but the tacky plastic side panels, the reported annoying clicking noise when it loses sync (apparently between every track) and again some reliability problems (hum) reported in the thread on Head-Fi made me want to avoid this one too.
So I'm left with the Pioneer. It gets good reviews, if you can find them. It's not a popular device it seems, relatively hard to find. But it has all the boxes ticked of features I need and good measurements. It also does not cost a lot.
However, I'm still a bit unsatisfied. I didn't 'choose' the Pioneer, I came by it because of a lack of other options. I've fired off an email to Emotiva, inquiring about a close by dealer, maybe they have one after all, can't hurt to ask.
If anyone has other suitable alternatives in mind, price range around 500-700 USD or less, please let me know!
One more question about the Pioneer. Since I could not find anything about headphone output impedance (same for the Emotiva, why is everyone hiding this information?), I looked up the technical data on the used opamps for the Pioneer's headphone amp section. They used the OPA2134, which NwAvGuy tested as being okay, but a bit overpriced for its performance.
In the specsheet I find this:
Output Impedance,
Closed-Loop f = 10 kHz 0.01Ω
Open-Loop f = 10 kHz 10Ω
Is this information of any use? Or would a manufacturer actually add resistors or other components to increase impedance?
Which of these values is the correct one to designate to the output, open or closed loop (so I can compare to other devices)?
Pioneer U-05
I'm left with the Pioneer.
If anyone has other suitable alternatives in mind, price range around 500-700 USD or less, please let me know!
Isn't Pioneer out of 700 USD range? $965 on amazon.com.
For €672,27 (what is ~$760) you can get Violectric V100 with USB input 24/96 - http://lake-people.de/produktdetails/HPA_V100.html (http://lake-people.de/produktdetails/HPA_V100.html)
If integrated powersupply unit wasn't mandatory, you'd have more choices and lesser prices.
Rollin, thanks for your input. I can find the Pioneer for a lot less in Austria.
I had passed by the Violectric site before, but I missed that you can add DAC functionality, thanks for pointing this out! I realise the powersupply limits choices, otherwise there would be things like the Denon DA300, the Oehlback Ultra DAC etc. But I have enough clutter on my desk already :)
Keeping the test in mind they did years ago on TomsHardware (not finding much difference except in features between $2 Realtek audio and $2000 Benchmark DAC) I'm not really interested in raising the budget either. :))
ROTFL. Looking for reviews of the v100 and V200, I found a comment on the German Hifi forum, stating he compared it to the Lehmann Black Cube Linear. He said they sounded almost the same but the sound stage was much wider on the V200. Next I see a review on Head-Fi claiming the exaxt opposite! Has anyone found a review of the V100/V200 with those RMAA measurements?
BTW, congrats to Lehmann! At least they state the headphone output impedance (5 Ohm)
He said they sounded almost the same but the sound stage was much wider on the V200. Next I see a review on Head-Fi claiming the exaxt opposite!
At the risk of saying it the 100th time: people hear what they want to hear. That's why proper listening tests are so important and why audiophiles hate them so much: then they could not hear what they wanted to anymore and would have to actually use their ears.
You can find contradicting reviews on pretty much any item audiophiles have laid their
eyes and hands on.
Has anyone found a review of the V100/V200 with those RMAA measurements?
You don't trust characteristics provided by manufacturer? ;D
Nope :)) Need actual measurements from independant party please :)
Maybe this one : http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-idac2/
Decent specs
Decent looking
Decent price
This ought to be worth a closer look also:
http://www.leckertonaudio.com/products/uha760/
Digital volume control! In this case, that's probably a good thing because analog controls don't always track very well at lower volumes.
The ifi is buspowered right? I always ignored those because a) not enough amplifier power and b) usually only usb input (and to ensure compatibility with Linux, having a Toslink or S/PDIF as an extra is nice to have).
However, this is the first I see that supports USB3.0 and thus should be able to draw more power. I'll look into it! Thanks for the tip!
The Leckerton is sold out for now, and only has 55mW at 32Ohm, that's even less (actually half) of the Teac. With gain it gets the same amount at 300Ohm. Are you sure this can power something like the Beyerdynamic T1 or T70/90 for instance?
Edit: this adjusting of the soundstage on the Leckerton, simulating "low-frequency sounds are able to diffract (or “bend”) around the head" - is that fact or snakeoil?
Two quick questions here, even though you guys haven't responded to my previous message yet, sorry.
I discovered another device, the PS Audio Sprout. Amazon.co.uk will ship to me, so this is an option. Is it any good, sofar I have not found any test with RMAA or similar, just talk.
Edit: strike this. While I haven't found any RMAA measurements, if even the snakeoil salespeople find glaring flaws with its headphone output, I don't have to look further.
And secondly, I have gotten an offer for a Denon PMA-50. I know, I discarded this from my list, because I can't find any RMAA results on it. But the offer is tempting: 300$. Full warranty. Just not sure I can return it if I don't like it :) So because this is a stock sale, it won't last, it's urgent etc. I'm asking if any of you have seen RMAA or reliable measurement results for this one. Even if it's $300 I can't afford to buy blind and not being able to return it. Thanks!
Ah well, strike the question on the Denon as well. The brick-and-mortar store that was closing was dumping their entire stock. Not enough customers, competition from the internet, the usual. But once the sale started it seems plenty of people turned up. They're out of Denon stuff already.
In the mean time I've found another way of investigating devices. I google for Name of Device + Problems :) Interesting what one turns up.
Oh, and the Leckerton is out. I simply cannot find a decent source, so the questions I asked no longer matter.
Still interested in the iFi though, but it's really hard to find decent reviews. Even the audiophiles seem to mostly ignore this one, maybe they think it's too cheap :))
So I'm down to the Pioneer, the iFi, the Violectric (although expensive, and only USB input), and the ... no wait, that's it (Emotiva: in case of defect, return to USA, damn). Time to end this and stop pestering you guys. I'll do a bit more research on these three. Any links you might have to measurements of the iFi and Violectric, please share! Comments still more than welcome of course! Thanks a bunch for putting up with me sofar and all your great input!
Or would a manufacturer actually add resistors or other components to increase impedance?
If you want to use it as an amplifier, then yes you will add a circuit, which will determine the output impedance.
Thanks, I guess that means I don't know anything about the Pioneer's impedance other than that it's "very low" according to reviews :)
The Violectrics really tick almost all the right boxes. What I like is the clean layout and build quality, the fact they're not made in China. But for that price (and I put one in the cart and selected my country, the surprise was of the unpleasant kind) and just one digital input... Keeping Tom's statement "everything you buy for over $2 is just features" in mind... I tried getting the cheaper V90, and an external DAC800 (more inputs, same design, stackable, minimum extra cable clutter) but yikes, together twice the price of the Pioneer or any other one on my list. I wish I was rich, but I'm not :)) Violectric disqualified.
Currently reading up on the iFi. This one too has only one digital input, but it's half the price of the V100 with a DAC board. And it's much more compact. It's British though (ducks and runs) :)) Just kidding, we continentals really love you Brits, truely, honestly.
Currently reading up on the iFi. This one too has only one digital input, but it's half the price of the V100 with a DAC board. And it's much more compact. It's British though (ducks and runs) :)) Just kidding, we continentals really love you Brits, truely, honestly.
Don't worry. Check them out on Head-fi: you'll find plenty of animal-excrement marketing hype of the American kind ;)
(I had an interest, because I had bought one of their products, but the hype thread on some dsd micro or something absolutely put me off the company. Objectively, this may not be justified, but subjectively, that stuff absolutely turns me off.)
I don't care for the way PS Audio sells a lot of B.S. products, but I think "Sprout" is worth a closer look, and I see nothing in it's specifications to suggest that it's anything but transparent as a DAC and headphone amp.
"If anyone has other suitable alternatives in mind, price range around 500-700 USD or less, please let me know!"
Here's a really good one for slightly more than what you'd like to spend:
hxxp://www.amazon.com/Teac-HA-501-B-Monaural-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B00AE991VG
Well, I googled for Sprout reviews and one of the first hits complained about hum and distortions on the headphone output and suggested to just use the device as a DAC, nothing else.
But now I have two people complaining about PS Audio. Should I stop looking into the iFi?
RoyM111, thanks but this one has no DAC, just an amp.
... Should I stop looking into the iFi?
You wanted something good looking: the ifi boxes are very cute indeed. I'm quite happy with my iCAN. All this DSD-to-the-power-of-eternity stuff may (or may not, but I think it is) be a nonsense, but I don't know how much it is adding to the cost. Bullshit sales people are everywhere: unless, like some of the cable companies. their entire company is based on a foundation of dung, their presence does not necessarily mean that all the products are bad.
You could always run a small USB DAC into a Schiit Asgard.
If you want to pay a serious premium, the Audeze Deckard is a nice-looking option as well.
No sh*t for me thanks. I remember politely asking them about the Magni and Modi combo (regarding their external powersupplies) and got a nasty reply. NwAvGuy also had a thing or two to say about them. Methinks they chose their name wisely >:(
The Audeze I can find for around 675 EUR in Poland, so that's a possibility. I'll look into this one, thanks much for the tip!
No sh*t for me thanks. I remember politely asking them about the Magni and Modi combo (regarding their external powersupplies) and got a nasty reply. NwAvGuy also had a thing or two to say about them. Methinks they chose their name wisely >:(
If you are going to discount Schiit on the basis of the NwAvGuy stuff, then do look at the actual history on both sides. I could be wrong, and I'm not going to visit to recheck, but I think that, after an initial spat, Schiit took on board the stuff that NwAvGuy drew to their attention. You'd maybe have to look into the Head-Fi environment and ethos too. In fact... you could waste a heap of time on that alone!
But I didn't buy the Gungnir that I was absolutely determined to love and lavish my audiophile cash on (Not to mention that its connectivity and feature list fitted my requirement perfectly), and could have had at a give-away 2nd-hand price. It's hydrogen audio, so I am unable to go into the reasons why.
Meh, the Asgard 2 is a good desktop-sized preamp that meets the requirements of good looks and an integrated power supply. They use an excellent RK27 volume pot. Most of the devices mentioned in this thread have some kind of audiophile fluff. I can't think of a rationalization for any of Schiit's converters, unless you really insist on another hunk of brushed aluminum on your desk. Nick has been responsive and polite, in my experience.
I looked into the Audeze, and according to a guy on Head-Fi, showing internel pictures of both, it was almost identical to the Matrix M-Stage HPA-3U (just an updated DAC section). So is the Audeze merely a rebranded Chinese import? Not that Chinese products can't be good, but I'd rather take the Chinese original than pay twice just for another brand label.
That said, your opinions on the Matrix M-Stage HPA-3U?
I believe the Audeze unit is made in China, unlike their headphones. The boards do look very similar. Of course, the BMW DesignWorks case on the Audeze unit will greatly improve the sound quality.
That would be a shame, I kinda like the Matrix case better :))
OP. If you are looking for a reliable, ground loop free, transparent DAC with a decent HP amp and guaranteed hassle free drivers in perpetuity the best place to look is not audiophile grade products but the genuine professional article. They are called audio interfaces rather than simple DACs and act as multipurpose tools. (Multiple (DAC), (multiple) ADC, mixer, HP amp, DI box, EQ and effects package, monitor controller - all rolled into one device.
Pretty much top of the range is the RME Babyface pro which will set you back a top of our budget 700 Euros. The SPL Crimson and Audient i22 and MOTU Ultrlite are all less expensive and excellent. The babyface is bottom of the RME range but all the oher brands mentioned have cheaper alternatives. Focusrite is a good budget brand.
Cheap audio interfaces sometimes have laughable headphone amps. I can't find any specs for the Babyface.
Edit: According to the manual, the Babyface has a headphone output of 30 ohms. Not good.
Would the M-Audio SUPER DAC be a contender then? It has both high gain and low gain
Output: 190 mW (32 ohms) & 210 mW (16 ohms) @ 1 kHz
Drive Ability: 16-100 ohms (1/8" / 3.5 mm); 100-600 ohms (1/4" / 6.35 mm)
Would the M-Audio SUPER DAC be a contender then? It has both high gain and low gain
Output: 190 mW (32 ohms) & 210 mW (16 ohms) @ 1 kHz
Drive Ability: 16-100 ohms (1/8" / 3.5 mm); 100-600 ohms (1/4" / 6.35 mm)
If you only want unbalanced line output (fixed-level), you could just get a Fiio E10k. I believe the headphone amp is equivalent, although Fiio actually properly specifies their output impedance.
Edit: According to the manual, the Babyface has a headphone output of 30 ohms. Not good.
Which manual was that? In the manual V1.1 for the Babyface Pro I read two figures: 10 Ohm for the 6.3 mm jack, and 2 Ohm for the 3.5 mm jack.
Here is the manufacturers link for the Babyface.
Babyface Pro (http://www.rme-audio.de/en/products/babyface_pro.php#5)
This is the relevant text for the headphone amps
DA, Phones 3/4
AS DA Line Out, but:
Output: 6.3 mm TRS jack, unbalanced
Output impedance: 10 Ohm
Output level at 0 dBFS, 1 kOhm load: +13 dBu
Max power @ 0.1% THD: 50 mW
Output: 3.5 mm TRS jack, unbalanced
Output impedance: 2 Ohm
Output level at 0 dBFS, 1 kOhm load: +7 dBu
Max power @ 0.1% THD: 70 mW
Two headphone amps - 2 Ohm and 10 Ohm.
SPL crimson is similar.
I found out where the discrepancy came from: The figure quoted by theriverlethe comes from the older Babyface, not the new Pro.
I found out where the discrepancy came from: The figure quoted by theriverlethe comes from the older Babyface, not the new Pro.
Correct. That still looks pretty weak in terms of power output. I would check the Matrix Mini-I Pro.
Actually, I don't see any advantage of the mini-I pro vs the mini-I. Just be aware of the 12 ohms output impedance.
Of course there are other ways to get the performance of the O2 without the unsightly wires:
(http://www.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=118210&d=1461546540)
(http://www.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=118209&d=1461546525)
:)) True. But even the Odac/Objective isn't available here, only on import and then it costs not much less than say an Emotiva, with the same level of support. So I'll keep looking a bit more :))
After some "enhanced interrogation," I managed to discern that the headphone output impedance on the TEAC unit is 56 ohms.
I'll be incorporating NWAVGUY's mods into my new Behringer UCA202:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/behringer-uca202-review.html
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/03/behringer-uca202-frankendac.html
I detect faint but audible hiss, but the analog volume control seems to track reasonably well. With several hundred dollars left over, I'm sure a person could figure out a way to make it look more attractive.
Thanks for the link to the Behringer. Not my kind of thing, output impedance of 47-50 Ohms. In a separate thread I've been asking for closed headphones and one of the candidates I ordered for evaluation is a Panasonic HD10. Impedance 18Ohm. So I would need an output impedance on my amp of 2 Ohms or less if the "8x" rule from NwAvGuy is absolute. I will have a look at what else Behringer has to offer though. Theriverlethe, thanks for your efforts in looking that up! Teac is then really no longer an option for me.
BTW, this little Behringer device reminded me of this one, which I came across a while ago, decided against it because of USB powered:
fostex_pc_100_usb_hr (http://www.thomann.de/de/fostex_pc_100_usb_hr.htm)
Any good? I might get one of these for use at work.
Still looking into the 'goodlooking Odac' alternative. I'm running out of options: either the Pioneer, which is at the top of my price range, or risk importing something and hope I never need support.
I did find a dealer for the Odac/Objective with cables at the back and 6.3mm plug, as mentioned in the beginning of this thread. Price is rather high. If I wanted to make a custom case for this and tuck the powerbrick inside, would it be enough to use a metal case and put metal sheet around the powersupply and then attach the case to the mains earth?