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Poll

What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

16 kbps or less
24 kbps
32 kbps
48 kbps
64 kbps
80 kbps
96 kbps
112 kbps
128 kbps
145 kbps
160 kbps
175 kbps
192 kbps
224 kbps
256 kbps
280 kbps
320 kbps
350 kbps
More than 350 kbps

Voting closes: 2018-12-31 16:45:53

Topic: What is the bitrate of your Opus files? (Read 5198 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #25
I basically see Opus as a slightly more efficient version of AAC and to get those benefits it seem to be 96kbps-ish and lower as once you get into the 128kbps+ ranges your probably better off using Apple AAC for compatibility sake.

Compatibility isn't the only concern that matters to some people. Even if Opus and Apple AAC are roughly equivalent at bitrates of 128+kbps I still vastly prefer to use an open, non-proprietary, codec. One of the most amazing things about Opus is that it is free AND is at least on par with - if not better than - most other audio codecs

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #26
Interesting so many users prefer 128k over 96. Is that because of hearing true artifacts or to ensure sufficient buffer above the point of transparency?

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #27
@Deathcrow

Quote
Compatibility isn't the only concern that matters to some people. Even if Opus and Apple AAC are roughly equivalent at bitrates of 128+kbps I still vastly prefer to use an open, non-proprietary, codec. One of the most amazing things about Opus is that it is free AND is at least on par with - if not better than - most other audio codecs

Yeah, Opus is solid as it's basically #1 as the only obvious thing going against it is hardware support of which, as you already know, MP3/AAC are easily the most widely supported. but if your device supports Opus, I prefer it over those two and at this point in time I figure it's not worth using any other lossy formats besides MP3/AAC/Opus.

in fact, I just started (roughly in the last 2-3 days or so) using Opus @ 64kbps(for less important music) and 80kbps(for more important music) as I got a hold of a older phone (Huawei y336-A1 (which I rooted with Kingroot)) which I just use mainly for a portable music player and installed the mobile version of Foobar2000 on it and it works great with Opus. running a benchmark (in Foobar2000 mobile on the phone) on the Opus files I made(from FLAC of course), with one CPU core, it decodes the Opus files a little over 40x real-time. it sips battery to as I used it for roughly 40min-1hr earlier and the phones battery only dropped about 3% or so.

I got a 8GB MicroSD card in the phone so in order to fit my entire music collection in it, using Opus was even more beneficial as before my general music collection took up roughly 10-11GB with 128kbps AAC(for more important music)/96kbps AAC(for less important music). but now, while I don't have everything in the phone yet, it's a little less than 4GB with the 64kbps/80kbps Opus combo. I would imagine if I got everything on it, probably won't go over about 5GB.

p.s. funny thing is... I had that old phone no one was using laying around for a little while now but I never even thought to use it for Opus playback on the go as it just popped into my head to try it and it worked great.

side note: I was recently playing with AAC and I was surprised that AAC-LC @ 64kbps that TVBR mode sounds noticeably better than CVBR mode and not only that the CVBR file was actually a bit higher bit rate than the TVBR file. like when ABXing, without even finishing the test, it was pretty easy for me to tell what was the FLAC file and what was the CVBR file given the CVBR file had a muffled sound to the overall sound where as with the TVBR file that was not there which makes it more difficult to tell the TVBR from the FLAC as I got to pay more attention to random artifacts as it's not as obvious since the TVBR sound has a similar clarity to the FLAC in a basic sense which is missing in the CVBR file which make that one easy to spot. but I noticed in Foobar2000 when encoding 64kbps Apple AAC files is that when using TVBR it does not attempt to use any AAC-HE mode (or the like) where as when using CVBR it wants to use that AAC-HE mode as I had to uncheck that option so it used AAC-LC.

@Anakunda

Quote
Interesting so many users prefer 128k over 96. Is that because of hearing true artifacts or to ensure sufficient buffer above the point of transparency?

Yeah, I would not be surprised if for some it's sort of a safety buffer especially with Opus given it seems to do quite well at 96kbps. hell, I would imagine I might even be able to claim that Opus @ 80kbps might be roughly equivalent to Apple AAC @ 96kpbs(?).

but in general I feel with modern encoders anything above 128kbps basically loses efficiency for sure as it seems like once you go beyond that, the gains are pretty much minimal if not very minimal. so basically... I think in most situations 128kbps is more than enough bit rate for quality sound.

but anyways, I can't imagine many disliking 96kbps Opus given the sound tests from 2014 show it scores pretty darn good... https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,106911.0.html ; so given that test, which is 96kbps setting for Opus, it seems like beyond 128kbps would be overkill and mostly a waste of disc space for most people. that's kind of why I see Opus to be mainly worth using in the 96kbps and lower ranges since that's when Opus is at it's best as at the higher bit rates (say 128kbps or higher, especially higher) it seems like you can just pretty much pick whatever format you want and they are all roughly the same.

as for myself... I seem to be similar to some others around here where 80kbps (for Opus) is pretty much high enough for me, especially when I am trying to squeeze the file size down as much as I can etc. although 64kbps is still quite usable for me even though I went with 80kbps as a little bit of a safety buffer for me on my more important music.

but at the end of the day... I could see how many would see the 128kbps rate as the 'just use it and forget about it' setting as if you rip your music collection at that rate you won't need to re-rip it again for lack of quality and yet it's still efficient. that's sort of why I got the 'I suggest 128kbps for most people' in my signature for Apple AAC and one could probably apply that to Opus to (even though Opus @ 96kbps might be close enough to the general 128kbps option) as 128kbps seems to be that setting to where it's that great balance between efficiency, but not taking any shortcuts on sound quality either.

p.s. I voted for the 64kbps setting in the poll but I probably should have went with 80kbps especially if Opus @ 80kbps is roughly equivalent to Apple AAC @ 96kbps as it seems like with Apple AAC that 96kbps is sort of a minimum around here for quality sound for Apple AAC. still, Opus @ 64kbps is still quite respectable if one is a bit more concerned with file size than sound quality but not sacrificing overall sound quality too much.
For Music with Opus/AAC...
-The sweet spot for these two encoders = 96kbps or 128kbps.
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps and AAC @ 128kbps (q64 TVBR) for most people.
-I use Foobar2000 (with Encoders Pack installed) to convert FLAC to AAC(Apple)/Opus.

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #28
UPDATE: while I already mentioned I voted for 64kbps, which ain't bad for the bit rate, it seems like 96kbps is what I would vote for now since it's a safe setting for most people and I figure it's not worth gambling (on sound quality loss) on the lower bit rates for important music to squeeze a little extra space savings and Opus @ 96kbps scores very well in listening tests so there is no real need to use higher than 96kbps with Opus in general.

I recently re-converted my FLAC collection to 96kbps (was using 80kbps) just to play it safe (sound quality wise) for my more important music but I still left the less important music at 64kbps (that combo gives me ample room for adding more music to the 8GB MicroSD card in the future).

NOTE: one song I set to 96kbps, had a average bit rate of 138kbps (i.e. 'They Broke His Pelvis' track from the Drive (2011) soundtrack). but my overall music collection (1,205 songs) averages 99kbps so far which is about expected since it's around 96kbps but it's a bit surprising to see 138kbps from the 96kbps setting. only about 4 songs cracked 130kbps+.

p.s. if I wanted to really nitpick and squeeze out every last drop out of Opus I 'may' be able to try going between the 80 and 96kbps setting to 88kbps, but it's not really worth messing with for the little storage space savings and we know 96kbps is a strong sound quality setting given the tests around here. so for anything important I think 96kbps is going to be my default Opus setting now as it should be a safe setting that I can say, 'use it and forget about it'.
For Music with Opus/AAC...
-The sweet spot for these two encoders = 96kbps or 128kbps.
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps and AAC @ 128kbps (q64 TVBR) for most people.
-I use Foobar2000 (with Encoders Pack installed) to convert FLAC to AAC(Apple)/Opus.

 

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #29
96kbps is transparent to me. What I noticed is that up to 96kbps you get solid improvements for every 32kbps interval you give to the bitrate. After 96kbps, even if there is a difference for somebody, I bet the quality gain is less effective than the one given below 96kbps in 32kbps intervals. Not that there might be no quality gain, but most possibly not quite as big as the one you get for 32kbps intervals below 96kbps.

Yeah, I think what you say there would be difficult to disagree with given listening tests around here (which should be a pretty good estimate of Opus quality) because going by 32kbps bit rate increases, 32/64/96/128/160 etc, it seems like once you hit 96kbps things tend to largely peak in sound quality to where going higher, the sound quality gains tend to be minimal, and once you hit 160kbps seem to be pretty much the limit and going any higher seems to be largely overkill/waste of storage space (based on some comments I have read around here). so I kind of assume the difference between 96kbps vs 160kbps is minimal(if not very minimal) overall and probably requires optimal listening conditions etc to notice it. like it becomes more of a the thought of them being able to ABX it (at 96kbps vs say 128kbps or 160kbps) more than the difference actually bothering them (because the difference is faint) when just sitting back and enjoying the music.

so based on what your saying it might be roughly something like this, sticking to the 32kbps each increase standard...

32kbps to 64kbps = biggest gap in sound quality.
64kbps to 96kbps = a decent gap in sound quality. (largely cleans up the already pretty good sound to where artifacts should be pretty minimal at this point(96kbps))
96kbps to 128kbps = small gap in sound quality.
128kbps to 160kbps =smaller gap in sound quality.
160kbps to 192kbps or higher = smallest gap in sound quality. probably next to nothing in sound quality(?). basically efficiency is pretty much shot any higher than 160kbps from the looks of things.

so basically 96kbps offers the most sound quality for the bit rate basically (especially sticking to the 32kbps increase standard) which pretty much makes it that 'sweet spot' for Opus. I just said 'pretty much' just to leave a little lee-way in there as if someone disagreed with me, it can't be more than one setting either way of 96kbps sticking to the 32kbps (up or down in bit rate) standard. so in other words, the 'sweet spot' for just about everyone, who has a concern for efficiency, would be basically one of the following settings... 64kbps/96kbps/128kbps. so basically 128kbps is for those who are a bit more concerned with sound quality than storage space/efficiency and 64kbps is for those a bit more concerned with storage space than sound quality where as 96kbps is basically that great balance between the two. so while 160kbps is still a respectable choice, I don't really think someone could argue in favor of 160kbps in terms of efficiency as while it's probably a solid option for those who want maximum sound quality without getting too crazy with the bit rate, so it's not a total loss of efficiency, it does tend to take a solid hit in efficiency for minimal sound quality gains which makes it a little too high if you ask me since I sort of see 128kbps as a bit of a safety buffer for the already strong 96kbps setting (so it's not too surprising to see 128kbps the current leader in the poll with 96kbps being the 2nd choice) but even that already comes with a 25% increase in storage space etc.
For Music with Opus/AAC...
-The sweet spot for these two encoders = 96kbps or 128kbps.
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps and AAC @ 128kbps (q64 TVBR) for most people.
-I use Foobar2000 (with Encoders Pack installed) to convert FLAC to AAC(Apple)/Opus.

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #30
Until recently I was using 96kbps for Opus but I noticed that over 10000Hz or 12000Hz alot of the stereo field gets centered (Something similar happens with Vorbis at those bitrates) so I jumped to 128kbps where I notice nothing. It just cant be my imagination.

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #31
More likely it's Intensity Stereo (IS).
IS is beneficial for bitrates  less than 130 kbps.
IS is applied on frequency range of 12-20 kHz (at 96 kbps), 15.6-20kHz(128 kbps) and it's completely deactivated at 130+ kbps.
 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6716
Intesity stereo (table 66)
Frequency bands (table 55)
 https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/celt/bands.png


Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #32
@Klimis

Quote
stereo field gets centered

Maybe this is a bit of a noob question, but when you say that, do you mean that how some stereo music sound switches from left to right speakers normally that it's less like that and plays more in the center (so is played through both speakers when it's normally more one or the other)?

if that's the case, that would not bother me as I generally prefer the general music to be in both speakers anyways.
For Music with Opus/AAC...
-The sweet spot for these two encoders = 96kbps or 128kbps.
-I suggest Opus @ 96kbps and AAC @ 128kbps (q64 TVBR) for most people.
-I use Foobar2000 (with Encoders Pack installed) to convert FLAC to AAC(Apple)/Opus.

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #33
Maybe it collapses a phase offset between the two channels. I always hated weird phase offsets anyway, but that sounds like a bug.

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #34
More likely it's Intensity Stereo (IS).
IS is beneficial for bitrates  less than 130 kbps.
IS is applied on frequency range of 12-20 kHz (at 96 kbps), 15.6-20kHz(128 kbps) and it's completely deactivated at 130+ kbps.
 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6716
Intesity stereo (table 66)
Frequency bands (table 55)
 https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/celt/bands.png


I believe that's it.
It just feels like there is way less Stereo information above 12kHz.
It took me a while to notice it at 96kbps but now I can hear it on tracks with weird panning effects. At 128kbps though I hear nothing, I guess it's way above the threshold of what I can perceive as stereo or mono information. BTW as I said I can hear it also on Vorbis files, it's even more noticeable on those. I guess other that Xilph's codecs I don't hear anything at those bitrates (like AAC).

Re: What is the bitrate of your Opus files?

Reply #35
Several years ago I've tested intensity stereo (IS) at different start bands (18,19 and 20) on 1.1 alpha version. Results were that default 19 start band at 96 kbps was the most optimal.

IS codes stereo audibly lossy at high frequencies  but it saves bits which can be used at lower frequencies and those are  considerably more audible.  In a few words, default IS behavior brings more benefit than harm in Opus encoder.

(All three Vorbis, Opus and AAC code HF stereo by implementing intensity stereo or similar techniques. Vorbis is the worse that's for sure.  Not sure about Opus vs AAC however even the highest quality AAC encoders present audibly stereo artifacts as well (at 96 kbps)).
What important is a big picture. Opus still performs better than any AAC encoder at 96 kbps. Types and origins of artifacts may be different.

P.S. I'm not sure but I think there were some enhancements to IS (variable threshold ?).  Variation of artifact can be more audible than if artifact was constant.

 
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