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Topic: "The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game" (Read 5391 times) previous topic - next topic
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"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Watched this video this morning :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl3_AQBISYE

Thought this was interesting.  What do you guys make of it?

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #2 –
With all the Star Trek references, I'm amazed that dude in the red shirt survived to the end!

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Rich B on
Watched this video this morning :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl3_AQBISYE

Thought this was interesting.  What do you guys make of it?


I only listened to the first 2 minutes and there were enough logical holes and posturing to make me want to stop.  Isn't one of the presenters an employee of any AVR vendor?


What logical holes are you referring to?

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #4 –
Denon AVR-X5200W

Number of Poweramps
9

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)
x

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)
140 W

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive)
175 W

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive)
250 W
Ad hominem attacks are not Science.

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #5 –
I didn't watch much of it, but it appeared that they were just going to rail against all of the bad ways of specifying amplifier power without going into what would be a good way of specifying it.

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Rich B on
What logical holes are you referring to?


The big picture was that were deifying the backward means we used to specify and measure audio power back in the 1960s.

They also snuck in some cracks about how adding signal processing features necessarily led to compromises in the power supply.

The comments were of the old school "Buy amps by the pound" nature. Obviously I could say "Crest Factor" a 1000 times and it would go over their heads 1,000 times.

And that was only the first 2-3 minutes...

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
They also snuck in some cracks about how adding signal processing features necessarily led to compromises in the power supply.

What, you think technology licensing is free?

Please don't wave me off with "excluded middle."  Rich B. is chomping at the bit to see what you have to say.

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #8 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
They also snuck in some cracks about how adding signal processing features necessarily led to compromises in the power supply.

What, you think technology licensing is free?


Since the actual costs are covered by a NDA, its actual cost is open to speculation.

However, saying that Atmos costs have to come out of the AVR power supply budget seems like more than a reach.

This video looks like yet another dated attempt to bully audiophiles into buying power amps that are capable of running shaker tables, when all they need are power amps that work well with music.


"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The comments were of the old school "Buy amps by the pound" nature. Obviously I could say "Crest Factor" a 1000 times and it would go over their heads 1,000 times.

And that was only the first 2-3 minutes...


That's the problem.
Because they do mention crest factor or the dynamic nature of program material..
"I hear it when I see it."

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #10 –
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive)
250 W


Of course such power ratings are nonsense.

It's always sad when the spec sheet is written by a salesman instead of an engineer.
"I hear it when I see it."

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #11 –
Quote from: xnor on
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive)
250 W


Of course such power ratings are nonsense.

It's always sad when the spec sheet is written by a salesman instead of an engineer.


But you could probably also say that power ratings using 1 kHz signals as opposed to full bandwidth are also nonsense, right? Most testing on the bench is misleading, and as I've learned, not indicative of how the amp will perform with music anyway.

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Rich B on
But you could probably also say that power ratings using 1 kHz signals as opposed to full bandwidth are also nonsense, right? Most testing on the bench is misleading, and as I've learned, not indicative of how the amp will perform with music anyway.


SS amps tend to put out about the same amount of power, -1 dB over most of the audio band.

Power ratings  below 60-80 Hz down to 20 Hz don't make sense if people use powered subwoofers.

The biggest reason why bench testing is not predictive of actual performance in use is the crest factor of music which causes all this whining about lack of beef in modern amps make no sense.

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #13 –
Quote from: xnor on
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive)
250 W


Of course such power ratings are nonsense.


Just to be clear, the nonsense part is the 10% THD.

As I pointed out in another post, a good SS amp is usually about 1 dB down at 20 KHz. The point were bass power rolls off is rarely higher than 50 or 60 Hz (depending on your power line frequency)  which is might still be pretty innocuous for all the people who use powered subwoofers.

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #15 –
Quote from: NaturalTimbre on
Denon AVR-X5200W

Number of Poweramps
9

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)
x

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% 2ch Drive)
140 W

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% 2ch Drive)
175 W

Power Output (6 ohm, 1 kHz, 10% 1ch Drive)
250 W

Seems like 0.05% is a typo. I'm guessing it's supposed to be 0.5%, otherwise who cares about there being no power rating specified for 0.08%?

Still, most people believing they need 250W could get by just fine with less than 100W, even without a powered sub.  Having Gene froth at the mouth over "giving people the power they need" makes me question whether he has both of his feet firmly planted on the ground or is serving some other agenda.

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #16 –
I'm not experienced at all in HT stuff, but is 100W per channel enough even for insensitive 85 dB/W @ 1M speakers? Although I suspect it does due to dynamic range of the audio material and most of sound power are already offloaded to the powered subwoofers.

Anyway I can't see how consumer Atmos is gonna succeed at all when it's a tiny niche within a niche of having a decent HT system. Just who exactly is gonna put 4 speakers in the ceiling?

"The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game"

Reply #17 –
The beauty about technologies like atmos is that you position sounds, and let system render it through whatever speaker setup you use instead of mixing down to a fixed channel format. But that's off-topic.


Quote
is 100W per channel enough even for insensitive 85 dB/W @ 1M speakers

Depends on the distance, placement and your material and how loud you want to listen.
"I hear it when I see it."