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Topic: Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC (Read 23062 times) previous topic - next topic
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Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #25
One of the easiest things to do for the beginner would be screen shots of the correct options (at least the ones that don't vary with the drive.)

[...]

I like the idea of have individual articles for each option, even if it is just a definition.  Even if it is the SAME definition that is in the EAC tool tip.  I really dislike it when guides only go into more detail on some of the settings.

Yes, but so many options are a matter of personal taste and are otherwise completely inconsequential. 

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #26
Is there a sort of scratchpad area in the Wiki where we can try to organise a tree of related articles first before disrupting those we have already?

I think you're right about the structure.

First page - Introduction to EAC
What does it do? What does it cost/is it open source? Why is it different, and for what uses does it excel?
From there, provide a series of links to different articles on the second and third levels, plus links to EAC homepage and DigitalInn.

Subsidiary first page - comparison table of EAC in various modes (secure/burst/with AccurateRip etc.) to other competitive software, either by popularity or similar features. i.e. compare EAC to iTunes, Windows Media Player and other popular apps in one table. Compare EAC to other secure ripping apps such as dBpowerAmp, foobar2000 etc.

Second Level pages - EAC Basic Guides
Each guide has a link near the top that direct you back to the First Page, that should be more obvious than simply a link on the word EAC. Should explain briefly why, by analogy if necessary, without going into unnecessary technical detail, but links to Third Level pages explaining technical details in full should be provided.

Third Level - EAC Technical Articles
Each Technical Article can go into detail about topics and options and their consequences and circumstances to use them.
Dynamic – the artist formerly known as DickD

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #27
I actually started this topic in order to address errors in the existing pages (read the title!).  If people feel that the entire suite of articles regarding EAC should be overhauled, that's fine.

In the meantime, I'd like to get these errors fixed.  I've already re-written some of the offending parts in the EAC Drive Configuration article, though I'd ultimately like to replace the entire thing.

Since the wiki is no longer a free-for-all, I thought it would be best to share the changes I came up with (so far) before incorporating them.  The sections shown are complete replacements.  Visit the page if you want to see what it says currently.

Quote
EAC Options
Check out the EAC options in the EAC menu. While it isn't necessary to change anything, you may want to set error recovery quality to "High".  Caution: By doing this you may increase the chances that EAC will give you bad data and not report an error without necessarily improving your odds of getting accurate data.  This setting only applies while ripping in secure mode.

Drive Features
Accurate Stream/Drive has 'Accurate Stream' feature
Drives without this feature are not capable of addressing audio data down to the exact sample in a consistent way.  In order to compensate for this problem, EAC will perform additional synchronization.

If EAC reports "Accurate Stream : Yes", it is safe to check the "Drive has 'Accurate Stream' feature" box.  This will tell EAC not to perform additional synchronization and provide an increase in speed.

Caching/Drive caches audio data
In order for secure mode to work properly, every read request made by EAC must cause the drive to seek data from the CD.  If your drive caches audio, subsequent requests for the same data may result in the drive fetching it only from its buffer, rather than from the physical disc.  To prevent this from happening, EAC has a routine to ensure previously requested data gets flushed from drive's cache.  This is done by having the drive read extra data from the disc; more data than the cache can store.

If EAC reports "Caching : Yes", it is important that you enable the cache flushing routine by checking the "Drive caches audio data" box.

If EAC reports "Caching : No", it is not necessary to enable the flushing routine.  Checking the "Drive caches audio data" box with drives that are reported by EAC as not caching will not improve EAC's accuracy.  It won't improve EAC's ability to detect errors nor EAC's ability to correct them.  What it will do however, is reduce your ripping speed and shorten the life of your drive.

Tip #1: If you're concerned that your drive caches audio data even though EAC is saying otherwise, try ripping a scratched disc (one known to produce errors easily).  Make sure you uncheck the "Drive caches audio data" setting AND uncheck the "Drive is capable of retrieving C2 error information" setting.  Make sure you also set the error recovery quality to "Low".  If EAC is capable of displaying a read error then cache flushing isn't necessary.

Tip #2: If you're still paranoid that your drive caches audio, feel free to try Feurio's audio caching test (Ctrl+Alt+P\Test device\Cache test) or spath's cache explorer.  If either determine that your drive caches less than 64 KB of data (ignore the reported buffer size), then cache flushing isn't necessary.  The reason for the 64 KB barrier is that EAC will never request less than this amount while ripping.

I'd appreciate feedback from anyone who wants to give it regarding the way it's worded and whether it's understandable.  Regarding the validity of the content, I'd prefer that comments only come from those who understand the issues beyond what is written in third-party online guides which often contain incorrect information.

What's next is to revisit the C2 feature and to change what is written regarding the wizard (if not simply blow it away).  The new version of EAC has a different wizard.  Is it still true (was it ever true?) that there was a problem allowing the wizard to configure your drive the very first time you run EAC?  I have seen only one post in the entire forum that makes mention of it which was several years ago.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #28
What about offering (a) EAC Profile(s) for those who're too impatient?

After loading such a pre-made Profile it is then only necessary to set up the drive options. Although the flaws discussed here are mostly regarding the drive options, it might be a good idea for a "quickstart" guide.

PS: @greynol

What about you getting a Wiki account? Wouldn't it make this whole thing easier for you?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #29
PS: @greynol

What about you getting a Wiki account? Wouldn't it make this whole thing easier for you?
I have one.

...just trying not to be a bull in a china shop! 

(I already fixed what was wrong in the EAC Lossless Backup guide.)

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #30
Excellent job, greynol!  Everything is very clearly worded and goes to an acceptable level of detail for the average user.  One phrase that may need some work is this one:

Quote
Check out the EAC options in the EAC menu. While it isn't necessary to change anything, you may want to set error recovery quality to "High". Caution: By doing this you may increase the chances that EAC will give you bad data and not report an error without necessarily improving your odds of getting accurate data. This setting only applies while ripping in secure mode.


What I'm thinking is something like this (assuming my statements are factually correct:)

Quote
Check out the EAC options in the EAC menu. Most of these options do not effect the ripping process.  For those settings that would effect the ripping process, the default options are correct and therefore no changes are necessary.  The rest of the options deal with how the user prefers EAC to act.  (For example, whether EAC will automatically get information from freedb, whether it will save log files, where the resulting files will be saved, etc.) You may want to set error recovery quality to "High" although by doing this you may increase the chances that EAC will give you bad data and not report an error without necessarily improving your odds of getting accurate data. This setting only applies while ripping in secure mode.


[By the way, you have now scared me about using the High setting.  ]

Then when/if the entire guide is overhauled you could add a sentence like:

Quote
You can find more information on each option here (link.)


That way the user can learn more about those settings that are (as you put it) "a matter of personal taste and are otherwise completely inconsequential."  Having more information about each setting would allow new users to develop their "personal taste" without worrying that they will effect the security of their rip.

I also want to say thank you for going after the errors in the guide.  I seem to dedicate a great deal of time to archiving my collection only to have to leave the ripping world for a while.  When I come back, I always worry about how things have changed since I have been gone.  If an accurate and updated configuration guide exists I can at least be assured that I can jump to the current recommended version of EAC.  Then I just have to worry about which new encoder I am going to use, what my new file structure will be, what add-ons (like REACT and AccurateRip) I will use, which source of album art is the best, and so on, and so on, and so on!

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #31
@greynol: Just edit the article(s), it could be rolled back if anything went wrong.
More problems when the structure was changed, therefore...


...Following suggestions about restructuring the whole thing:
  • Main EAC article
    • EAC Configuration (overview)
      • Beginners Guide (wizard, first setup)
      • EAC options menu
      • Drive otions menu
      • Comression Options menu
        • Configuration for MP3
        • Configuration for FLAC
        • ...
      • freedb/database options menu
      • WAV editor options menu
    • EAC usage (creating CUE sheets, T&C vs. copy, etc.)
      • ...
      • ...


And then general technical articles (e.g. I wasn't able to find something about offsets in general) which are linked with the according EAC pages (as background info).

IMHO this would it make much more easier to go all through this and configure EAC first and then get some tips for usage because it's according to the program's srtucture.

Any comments/suggestions? Or should we leave the structure as it is now?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #32
Check out the EAC options in the EAC menu. Most of these options do not effect the ripping process.  For those settings that would effect the ripping process, the default options are correct and therefore no changes are necessary.  The rest of the options deal with how the user prefers EAC to act.  (For example, whether EAC will automatically get information from freedb, whether it will save log files, where the resulting files will be saved, etc.) You may want to set error recovery quality to "High" although by doing this you may increase the chances that EAC will give you bad data and not report an error without necessarily improving your odds of getting accurate data. This setting only applies while ripping in secure mode.
The only reason why I think this specific setting was included in the Drive Configuration Guide was because it ties directly into EAC's method of ripping in secure mode.  The rest of what is in the EAC options menu might be better suited in a separate article.  Perhaps the error recovery quality would be better over there as well?

[By the way, you have now scared me about using the High setting.  ]
I'm not trying to advise against using the setting, I'm simply trying to explain that there's a bit more to it than what's advertised. (You may want to see what I wrote about it in the EAC Lossless Backup Guide.)  EDIT: In light of this, I think the section as shown above needs some more work.

That way the user can learn more about those settings that are (as you put it) "a matter of personal taste and are otherwise completely inconsequential."  Having more information about each setting would allow new users to develop their "personal taste" without worrying that they will effect the security of their rip.
Nothing wrong with a brief explanation.  I guess that's a good reason to have separate information about the settings as well as a configuration guide for those that aren't a matter of personal taste.

Thanks for the kind response!

@exec:
I like your organization very much.  If others want to pitch in I think that would be great!

I think my role in this whole thing is to help with the content in areas where I feel most comfortable (Drive Options, EAC Options and ripping methods).  FWIW, I prefer manual configuration over using the wizard but I assume most people would prefer using the wizard.  This is the one area of current Drive Configuration article that I'm uncomfortable working around.  Part of the reason is that it's a good idea to run EAC's drive features detection more than once (Andre mentions that it's difficult to detect cache with slow drives.  This doesn't change the fact that EAC can't report a read error when using a caching drive with the setting unchecked, however.)

Where's pepoluan?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #33
You may want to see what I wrote about it in the EAC Lossless Backup Guide.)


While I was reading the Lossless Backup Guide I was surprised to read:

Quote
Skip track extraction on read or sync errors: Unchecked


Why would you want to keep a track that had a read or sync error?

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #34
While I was reading the Lossless Backup Guide I was surprised to read:
Quote
Skip track extraction on read or sync errors: Unchecked

Why would you want to keep a track that had a read or sync error?

Lots of reasons.

Here's something worth looking at:
Code: [Select]
     Suspicious position 0:01:20 - 0:01:21

     Peak level 99.8 %
     Track quality 99.4 %
     Test CRC 4AB5F428
     Accurately ripped (confidence 8)  [04F4EEB9]
     Copy finished


All tracks accurately ripped

There were errors

Suppose if it took you  over 20 attempts to get a rip that could be verified.  Would you really want EAC to skip it?


Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #36
So I finally started restructuring the whole EAC thing.

Created: EAC configuration
Moved: EAC Drive configuration --> EAC drive options

Next tasks would be to slightly change the main EAC article to link to the EAC Configuration page and remove the EAC and LAME/OGG/etc. links (in future these pages should be accessable through the EAC Compressions Options page).
Then the drive config page has to be edited to fit in this scheme.
And of course the other pages have to be created.

I'll do this step by step when I can spend some time and keep you informed in this thread. Shout as soon as you think things got messed up. Also feel free to edit the newly created articles when you think you have some better phrasing and/or detected errors.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #37
Sounds great!

It'll be good to only have one page dedicated to compression options that don't need to change from codec to codec.  I already edited the EAC/Lame page and then noticed some of the same edits would apply to the other pages (CRC check, Check for return code).  Now we'll more easily be able to tell people not to use a compression offset.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #38
Sounds great!

It'll be good to only have one page dedicated to compression options that don't need to change from codec to codec.  I already edited the EAC/Lame page and then noticed some of the same edits would apply to the other pages (CRC check, Check for return code).  Now we'll more easily be able to tell people not to use a compression offset.


Yes, all these "codec guides" may be (partly) merged together in the "EAC compression options" page. Only specific information about the codec (e.g. command line options, tips, etc.) may stay in seperate pages. I think tomorrow I'll create all the pages as stubs (just would need some help to get these pages filled with correct info or at least some proofreading).

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #39
Where's pepoluan?

Whoa, someone called my name with big black fonts 

But seriously, what do you expect me to do? Sorry I didn't really follow the discussion; hectic times at work for the past 2 weeks.

If you have good ideas on how to make the wiki better, or even better, you've written a good EAC guide yourself but got flummoxed when you want to edit the wiki, send me:
  • An .rtf or .doc file with your guide, properly formatted, with pictures embedded.
  • Supporting picture files in .jpg or (preferably) .png format
Then I'll see what I can do.

PM me, and I'll PM you with my email.

Edit: Oops, I see Exec has started to work on the EAC pages. Sorry, didn't see that post  Really I should read a thread in its entirety before posting a reply.

Good Luck, Exec! 

Moderation: Trimmed unecessarily large quote block. Please keep quotes reasonable.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #40
Yes, but so many options are a matter of personal taste and are otherwise completely inconsequential. 
Not really, for those who need a guide.  The Coaster Factory had a recommended option for each setting that made sense, which was great because you could tell people to just set it up that way, and they'd learn later on what it meant.  That worked well.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #41
Yes, but so many options are a matter of personal taste and are otherwise completely inconsequential. 
Not really, for those who need a guide.  The Coaster Factory had a recommended option for each setting that made sense, which was great because you could tell people to just set it up that way, and they'd learn later on what it meant.  That worked well.
I'm not so sure all of the Coaster Factory's recommendations made sense.  Its Quickstart Manual is responsible for spreading quite a bit of misconception (to be honest, I'm happy to see that it's gone).  EDIT: To clarify, I'm happy to see the Quickstart Manual gone; I'm not happy to see the Coaster Factory gone.

Some people prefer to be told what to do, so I respect where you're coming from; but do we really need to recommend whether EAC instructs your PC to beep after it's done ripping?

Anyhow, I think the wiki should be able to accommodate everyone.  It's just a matter of creating the pages and organizing them so that readers don't get overwhelmed with so much information.  I think it would be great to see more people throw in their hats and start contributing.

Glaring Errors in Wiki Regarding EAC

Reply #42
Sorry guys, but I have a whole lot of work to do these days so not really much time for creating/editing wiki articles. However, today I finally took the time to create an article about the EAC wizard just to start with. Comments/suggestions?

During working on it I've realized that we do not have any article about AccurateRip. I think it would also be a great idea to put some information about the AR functionality in the wiki, because I've seen many discussions about it in the forums. Hey, where's greynol?... 


Edit: Just created a new thread about newly created/restructured EAC articles in the wiki here.
Only because this thread title here is hopefully not related to these new articles. 

 
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