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Hydrogenaudio Forum => Validated News => Topic started by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 15:13:21

Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 15:13:21
I am pleased to announce the launch of FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio solution from Nero, in the command line form!

    * First in the world FREE 2-Pass MPEG-4 AAC Encoder
    * Support for mono, stereo and multichannel encodings
    * Support for sampling rates up to 96 kHz, up to 32-bit Floating-Point PCM input
    * Compression Ratios ranging from ultra high (58 CDs fit on one!) to High-End Audio (2.5:1), for absolutely perfect audiophile encodings
    * Support for Embedded Album Art (Covers, Booklets, Lyrics!)
    * Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!
    * Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Codec
    * Fully Compatible with the Latest Version of the State-of-the-art MPEG-4 Audio Standard (LC-AAC, HE-AAC and HE-AAC v2)
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/Nero_Digital_Audio.html (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/Nero_Digital_Audio.html)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-04 15:15:06
first

thanks and wow 
checking out


edit:  first run without comandline parameters gives "unknown software exception 0xc000001d at 0x00402214"
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: yulyo! on 2006-05-04 15:22:51
thank You Ivan.
i do not know how to work with command line. (long time since lame's command line encoder. Too long)
Let's hope it will be an frontend or something. Or i'll just have to learn
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-04 15:26:09
it crashes whatever I throw at it after showing the introduction lines.. too bad I don't have Visual Studio installed on this machine
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 15:27:17
Quote
edit: first run without comandline parameters gives "unknown software exception 0xc000001d at 0x00402214"


Does your CPU have SSE2 instruction set?  It could be the source of the problem (if it is, we will have to provide a different binary)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-04 15:29:36
Quote

edit: first run without comandline parameters gives "unknown software exception 0xc000001d at 0x00402214"


Does your CPU have SSE2 instruction set?  It could be the source of the problem (if it is, we will have to provide a different binary)


Athlon XP 32 bit barton core, winxp normal setup
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 15:33:54
Okay thanks for the info - our team will investigate this and try to come back to you as soon as possible .
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: towolf on 2006-05-04 15:34:13
i do not know how to work with command line.


I’d regard that as an advantage. It increases the likelihood of a Linux binary (*hint hint*).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 15:44:49
Linux is actually on the way
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-04 15:51:07
This is a fantastic release and could be the one finally challenging LAME for the informed audio community.

It also makes Ahead/Nero look a lot better in my book  The development and patent fees surely were no small treat, and offering it for free is very generous.

I feel a little bad for the crash thingie  I know the feeling when after long work your baby blows up 5 minutes after release *sigh*
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kurtnoise on 2006-05-04 15:52:32
Many thanks to the Nero devs...Great stuff btw.

Quote
Support for Embedded Album Art (Covers, Booklets, Lyrics!)

Is there a special command line for that ? I don't see something like that in the help file.


An other question : those settings are correct or this is completely useless now ?

Code: [Select]
|   Old Presets     |   Quality Levels    |
|      Tape         |        -q=0.0       |
|      Radio        |        -q=0.1       |
|      Internet     |        -q=0.2       |
|      Streaming    |        -q=0.3       |
|      Normal       |        -q=0.5       |
|      Extreme      |        -q=0.6       |
|      Audiophile   |        -q=0.8       |
|      Transcoding  |        -q=1.0       |
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: halb27 on 2006-05-04 16:00:16
Just tried.
It didn't crash, but it doesn't get any commandline parameter, not even -help.
It just says
************************************************************
*
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder
*  Copyright © 2006 Nero AG
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide
*
*  Package build date: May  1 2006
*
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.
*
************************************************************

I run an AMD 32 bit Athlon Barton as well (mobile Athlon) @ Win XP Home SP2.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: toology on 2006-05-04 16:01:54
This looks really promising!
Will this implementation of aac work on an iPod?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: enry2k on 2006-05-04 16:08:17
It is wonderful gift!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Leo 69 on 2006-05-04 16:15:20
Can't encode on Athlon XP here. I see an error 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sizetwo on 2006-05-04 16:19:26
Yay

Will check it out right away.

Sounds promising, no pun intended.

Thanks a lot!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2006-05-04 16:43:53
Erroring here as well; it hangs for a while and then a Microsoft dialogue pops up.

AMD 32 Windows XP Pro SP2.

Edit: How rude of me!  Thank you though.  Once this minor glitch is ironed out it will be very useful.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Pasqui on 2006-05-04 16:56:29
Just tried.
It didn't crash, but it doesn't get any commandline parameter, not even -help.
It just says
************************************************************
*
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder
*  Copyright © 2006 Nero AG
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide
*
*  Package build date: May  1 2006
*
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.
*
************************************************************

I run an AMD 32 bit Athlon Barton as well (mobile Athlon) @ Win XP Home SP2.

Same behavior with my AMD Athlon XP 2600+ with WinXP Pro SP2 (afaik, SS2 is NOT supported). It seems this release does not like AMD chips.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 17:09:31
Hurrah Ivan!

I'm definitely excited about this. My ONLY complaint is that it doesn't support input via FLAC files. All my music is archived as FLAC, so I'm going to have to decode the songs to WAV before I can do anything. Any plans on allowing for other types of input in the future?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jimhaddon on 2006-05-04 17:13:35
works great with mine!

P4 @ 4.2Ghz, XP Pro

Hurrah Ivan!

I'm definitely excited about this. My ONLY complaint is that it doesn't support input via FLAC files. All my music is archived as FLAC, so I'm going to have to decode the songs to WAV before I can do anything. Any plans on allowing for other types of input in the future?


You could use the Foobar CLI encoder right? Just to encode from FLAC. Sureley foobar can do that

Edit: Yes, just tried it, used foobar to convert from FLAC to the ref encoder, and it works.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Leo 69 on 2006-05-04 17:20:28
Pasqui

Quote
afaik, SS2 is supported


No, it isn't. I guess we should wait for another binary 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 17:23:42

Just tried.
It didn't crash, but it doesn't get any commandline parameter, not even -help.
It just says
************************************************************
*
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder
*  Copyright © 2006 Nero AG
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide
*
*  Package build date: May  1 2006
*
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.
*
************************************************************

I run an AMD 32 bit Athlon Barton as well (mobile Athlon) @ Win XP Home SP2.

Same behavior with my AMD Athlon XP 2600+ with WinXP Pro SP2 (afaik, SS2 is supported).


Athlon XP does not support SSE2.

Athlon64 does.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Squeller on 2006-05-04 17:27:08
I've got some problems with the command line for foobar2000 and 2 questions.

1. My fb2k testing command line is: -q 0.8 -if %s -of %d

It encodes insanely fast (3 times as fast as for vorbis or mp3/lame), but in the end the converter crashes and fb2k complains:

"Error flushing file (Object not found) : file://U:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\Squeller\Desktop\Bedächtig, nicht eilen.mp4"

I think there's no output in the end? Processor issue here? (I've got an old daddy Intel P III)

2. I'm not into the nero/aac stuff. Where is this codecs place between vorbis, lame mp3, musepack? Whats the target audience?

Thx, people.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 17:28:29
An other question : those settings are correct or this is completely useless now ?

Code: [Select]
|   Old Presets     |   Quality Levels    |
|      Tape         |        -q=0.0       |
|      Radio        |        -q=0.1       |
|      Internet     |        -q=0.2       |
|      Streaming    |        -q=0.3       |
|      Normal       |        -q=0.5       |
|      Extreme      |        -q=0.6       |
|      Audiophile   |        -q=0.8       |
|      Transcoding  |        -q=1.0       |


I don't really understand what you mean here.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-04 17:34:02
I aslo don't have sse2 instruction and get same fatal error. Devs can you fix this
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 17:35:26
works great with mine!

P4 @ 4.2Ghz, XP Pro


Hurrah Ivan!

I'm definitely excited about this. My ONLY complaint is that it doesn't support input via FLAC files. All my music is archived as FLAC, so I'm going to have to decode the songs to WAV before I can do anything. Any plans on allowing for other types of input in the future?


You could use the Foobar CLI encoder right? Just to encode from FLAC. Sureley foobar can do that

Edit: Yes, just tried it, used foobar to convert from FLAC to the ref encoder, and it works.


Alright, I'll go ahead and do that. Am I able to do 2-pass encoding with a FLAC file? What would the parameters look like using foobar's CLI? I think I have to put %s in there somewhere because doing 2-pass won't work through a pipe.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jimhaddon on 2006-05-04 17:36:33
1. My fb2k testing command line is: -q 0.8 -if %s -of %d

It encodes insanely fast (3 times as fast as for vorbis or mp3/lame), but finally fb2k complains:

"Error flushing file (Object not found) : file://U:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\Squeller\Desktop\Bedächtig, nicht eilen.mp4"


The insanely fast bit is where it is decoding the original file, into wav which is why it is fast.

I have no idea about why you get that error though. Have you tried saving to a different location?

Alright, I'll go ahead and do that. Am I able to do 2-pass encoding with a FLAC file? What would the parameters look like using foobar's CLI? I think I have to put %s in there somewhere because doing 2-pass won't work through a pipe.


-q 0.1 -2pass -if %s -of %d  (for quality 0.1)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 17:39:53
This looks really promising!
Will this implementation of aac work on an iPod?


Our encoder is fully compliant with the MPEG-4 standard. For support issues about the iPod, please contact Apple: http://www.apple.com/support/ (http://www.apple.com/support/)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Digga on 2006-05-04 17:40:18
thank you developers! 
this is a nice and much appreciated step into the right direction.

now raise hands, who's in for the GUI? 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: goodnews on 2006-05-04 17:41:14
How about adding an option to the AAC Encoder utility to create files with a .m4a file extension instead of .mp4 (for all the iTunes and iPod users out there) to avoid having to manually rename files or having to run an extra program/script to rename file extension fom .mp4 to .m4a? Thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 17:41:34
Note that the encoder accepts data from standard input, but you will want to give the -ignorelength option if you do this. So for fastest encoding with foobar or similar frontends, please use

-ignorelength -if - -of %d
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Julien on 2006-05-04 17:41:44
I've got some problems with the command line for foobar2000 and 2 questions.

1. My fb2k testing command line is: -q 0.8 -if %s -of %d

It encodes insanely fast (3 times as fast as for vorbis or mp3/lame), but in the end the converter crashes and fb2k complains:

"Error flushing file (Object not found) : file://U:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\Squeller\Desktop\Bedächtig, nicht eilen.mp4"

I think there's no output in the end? Processor issue here? (I've got an old daddy Intel P III)

2. I'm not into the nero/aac stuff. Where is this codecs place between vorbis, lame mp3, musepack? Whats the target audience?

Thx, people.


I'm using "-q 0.6 -if - -of %d" and it works fine. Use "-" for pipe.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 17:43:13
How about adding an option to the AAC Encoder utility to create files with a .m4a file extension instead of .mp4 (for all the iTunes and iPod users out there) to avoid having to manually rename files or having to run an extra program/script to rename file extension fom .mp4 to .m4a? Thanks.



Huh?

Simply specify .m4a as the extension.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 17:43:35

Alright, I'll go ahead and do that. Am I able to do 2-pass encoding with a FLAC file? What would the parameters look like using foobar's CLI? I think I have to put %s in there somewhere because doing 2-pass won't work through a pipe.


-q 0.1 -2pass -if %s -of %d  (for quality 0.1)


Thanks Jim. Worked like a charm. Yeah... I'm definitely digging this new encoder. I just need to see the differences between single/2-pass modes. Anyone plan on doing any new ABX tests?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 17:44:51

I've got some problems with the command line for foobar2000 and 2 questions.

1. My fb2k testing command line is: -q 0.8 -if %s -of %d

It encodes insanely fast (3 times as fast as for vorbis or mp3/lame), but in the end the converter crashes and fb2k complains:

"Error flushing file (Object not found) : file://U:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\Squeller\Desktop\Bedächtig, nicht eilen.mp4"

I think there's no output in the end? Processor issue here? (I've got an old daddy Intel P III)

2. I'm not into the nero/aac stuff. Where is this codecs place between vorbis, lame mp3, musepack? Whats the target audience?

Thx, people.


I'm using "-q 0.6 -if - -of %d" and it works fine. Use "-" for pipe.


Use -ignorelength in that case:

-ignorelength : Ignores length signaled by WAV headers of input file.
                Useful for certain frontends using stdin.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 17:45:52
How about adding an option to the AAC Encoder utility to create files with a .m4a file extension instead of .mp4 (for all the iTunes and iPod users out there) to avoid having to manually rename files or having to run an extra program/script to rename file extension fom .mp4 to .m4a? Thanks.


foobar's CLI can specify the output extension. Or you can use something like ezXTN--a nifty little batch extension converter (just Google it) with drag-and-drop capabilities.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Squeller on 2006-05-04 17:50:03
I'm using "-q 0.6 -if - -of %d" and it works fine. Use "-" for pipe.

Doesn't work, also with the -ignorelength, as suggested by garf.

"Encoder has terminated prematurely with code -1073741795; please re-check parameters"

I think I'll have to look into a cmd box and see what happens.

EDIT: -q 0.8 -if test.wav -of test.mp4  --> Windows reports a crash, cmd box stays alive, the encoder does only show up "type -h for help" and stuff.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kurtnoise on 2006-05-04 17:50:22


An other question : those settings are correct or this is completely useless now ?

Code: [Select]
|   Old Presets     |   Quality Levels    |
|      Tape         |        -q=0.0       |
|      Radio        |        -q=0.1       |
|      Internet     |        -q=0.2       |
|      Streaming    |        -q=0.3       |
|      Normal       |        -q=0.5       |
|      Extreme      |        -q=0.6       |
|      Audiophile   |        -q=0.8       |
|      Transcoding  |        -q=1.0       |


I don't really understand what you mean here.

I mean, with the old interface we can set some presets for the quality mode. So, could you provide some equivalent values for the quality levels with this new encoder ?

Thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Julien on 2006-05-04 17:54:53


I'm using "-q 0.6 -if - -of %d" and it works fine. Use "-" for pipe.


Use -ignorelength in that case:

-ignorelength : Ignores length signaled by WAV headers of input file.
                Useful for certain frontends using stdin.


Thank you. I've actually changed it right after you have mentioned a couple of posts earlier.

I'm using "-q 0.6 -if - -of %d" and it works fine. Use "-" for pipe.

Doesn't work, also with the -ignorelength, as suggested by garf.

"Encoder has terminated prematurely with code -1073741795; please re-check parameters"

I think I'll have to look into a cmd box and see what happens.


You should maybe try to change the location of the encoder's exe, ie c:/encoders/nero/.  I sometimes have that kind of issues when I leave the encoder in a folder on the desktop.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 18:02:34
Processor issue here? (I've got an old daddy Intel P III)


The Pentium 3 doesn't support SSE2. I hope there's a regular binary up soon.


Quote
2. I'm not into the nero/aac stuff. Where is this codecs place between vorbis, lame mp3, musepack? Whats the target audience?
Thx, people.


Low bitrates (published encoder supports LC-AAC, HE-AACv1 and HE-AACv2)

http://www.mp3-tech.org/tests/aac_48/results.html (http://www.mp3-tech.org/tests/aac_48/results.html)

Medium bitrates (the new version is better and doesn't have that bug )

http://www.maresweb.de/listening-tests/mf-128-1/results.htm (http://www.maresweb.de/listening-tests/mf-128-1/results.htm)


I mean, with the old interface we can set some presets for the quality mode. So, could you provide some equivalent values for the quality levels with this new encoder ?

Thanks.


I don't think it makes sense  The new encoder is better and attains the same quality at lower bitrates, but a lot of listening tests would be needed to find a reliably correspondence from old settings to new settings.

Moreover, the old presets had approximate bitrates that were significantly off from what the old encoder really produced. You can find a lot of complaining about it in old threads on this forum. The new one just takes a quality level. Different people have different conceptions about what "Normal" should be, anyway.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sebastian Mares on 2006-05-04 18:06:31
1. My fb2k testing command line is: -q 0.8 -if %s -of %d


Not a fix for your problem, but you can use "-q 0.8 -if - -of %d" since the encoder susports StdIn.

Crap, missed the second page. I should get some sleep.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jmartis on 2006-05-04 18:11:33
It will encode on my computer but doesnt write header(?) so I cant play it in Winamp.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 18:14:47
It will encode on my computer but doesnt write header(?) so I cant play it in Winamp.


Can you provide some more details? How did you encode, with what...
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: edekba on 2006-05-04 18:17:14

I mean, with the old interface we can set some presets for the quality mode. So, could you provide some equivalent values for the quality levels with this new encoder ?

Thanks.


I don't think it makes sense  The new encoder is better and attains the same quality at lower bitrates, but a lot of listening tests would be needed to find a reliably correspondence from old settings to new settings.

Moreover, the old presets had approximate bitrates that were significantly off from what the old encoder really produced. You can find a lot of complaining about it in old threads on this forum. The new one just takes a quality level. Different people have different conceptions about what "Normal" should be, anyway.



I guess that means users should try out different settings for themselves to determine a q value that they want?

I've been trying this out and i love it. Cant really tell the difference in 2pass yet but having a cli for nero that can output to a m4a is great. (using fb2k) Can we put in a q of say .385 ? or does it have to be just one number (.3/.4/.5)

thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-04 18:19:16
what is minimum bitrate for 5.1 encoding
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: haregoo on 2006-05-04 18:20:43
I've been trying this out and i love it. Cant really tell the difference in 2pass yet but having a cli for nero that can output to a m4a is great. (using fb2k) Can we put in a q of say .385 ? or does it have to be just one number (.3/.4/.5)


NeroAACEnc.exe accept fractional value.
-q 0.425 produce around 128kbps.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 18:22:14
Quote
I guess that means users should try out different settings for themselves to determine a q value that they want?


Pretty much. "It depends on what you want to do and how much quality you want" 

Quote
Can we put in a q of say .385 ? or does it have to be just one number (.3/.4/.5)


You can use fractional values.

BTW. Using 2-pass with VBR makes no sense  VBR will just use how many bits it needs.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jmartis on 2006-05-04 18:22:34
It will encode on my computer but doesnt write header(?) so I cant play it in Winamp.


Can you provide some more details? How did you encode, with what...

sure 
encoded with commandline: neroaacenc.exe -q 0.5 -if j:\1.wav -of j:\1.aac
now its encoding for about 30sec. original file: 53182kb encoded: 6809kb
dbpoweramp says length: 0:00  size: 0kb  original size: 0kb
Winamp crashes when trying to play it
cant transcode with Dbpoweramp

>>EDIT:<< woah I see it it is MP4 container so no AAC extension sorry for confusion

J.M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: edekba on 2006-05-04 18:26:53

I've been trying this out and i love it. Cant really tell the difference in 2pass yet but having a cli for nero that can output to a m4a is great. (using fb2k) Can we put in a q of say .385 ? or does it have to be just one number (.3/.4/.5)


NeroAACEnc.exe accept fractional value.
-q 0.425 produce around 128kbps.



Im currently also trying to find a value that produces ~128. And .4 for the stuff i listen to is comming out around 130. Thats why i was saying like .385 or something would produce 128.

Thanks tho

Quote
BTW. Using 2-pass with VBR makes no sense smile.gif VBR will just use how many bits it needs.


Yeah i guess i was caught up in the moment and thinking video VBR. (2 pass VBR using xvid/divx etc) heheh

edit...

Hmmm using single pass created an audio file of 132kbps while a 2pass was 127kbps. Both sound the same to me ... just curious ...
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rosshmusic on 2006-05-04 18:29:46
Quote
Quote

Quote

I'm using "-q 0.6 -if - -of %d" and it works fine. Use "-" for pipe.


Use -ignorelength in that case:

-ignorelength : Ignores length signaled by WAV headers of input file.
                Useful for certain frontends using stdin.


Thank you. I've actually changed it right after you have mentioned a couple of posts earlier.

so that would make your new commandline:

"-q 0.6 -ignorelength -if - -of %d"

correct?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 18:38:23
Quote

BTW. Using 2-pass with VBR makes no sense smile.gif VBR will just use how many bits it needs.


Yeah i guess i was caught up in the moment and thinking video VBR. (2 pass VBR using xvid/divx etc) heheh


Those "video VBR" are really ABR modes. (Of course, ABR is a kind of VBR...)

Quote
edit...

Hmmm using single pass created an audio file of 132kbps while a 2pass was 127kbps. Both sound the same to me ... just curious ...


It should probably just give an error when you try that, because I really have no idea what happens in this case, and it's certainly untested, so I'd strongly recommend not to do it 


what is minimum bitrate for 5.1 encoding


66kbps

-q 0.12

If you try lower quality levels, you'll get an errror. Hmm, I think I'll change this so the lowest is really -q 0.0 too.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2006-05-04 18:53:22
* Crystal Clear, Award Winning Sound Quality at every compression ratio and bit rate!
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/Nero_Digital_Audio.html (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/Nero_Digital_Audio.html)


Hmm, what awards?

Can't download. Any mirrors?

And please, pretty please: could we have a "recommended settings"?

And maybe some more info on command line usage for foobar and EAC?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 18:58:50
Quote
Can't download. Any mirrors?


The server is alive. Problem must be at your end.

Quote
And please, pretty please: could we have a "recommended settings"?


I would have no idea what would be supposed to go in such a thread.

Quote
And maybe some more info on command line usage for foobar and EAC?


What more info do you need?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 19:01:22
You can use fractional values.

BTW. Using 2-pass with VBR makes no sense  VBR will just use how many bits it needs.


Hmmm using single pass created an audio file of 132kbps while a 2pass was 127kbps. Both sound the same to me ... just curious ...


I was experimenting with 2-pass vs single pass, and I noticed similar results. I had quality set to 0.6, and encoded Thursday's "A City by the Light Divided." Single pass came out around 74.4MB, with a bitrate ~224, whereas 2-pass came to 70.7MB with a bitrate of ~215. Interestingly enough, that's exactly the bitrate I was looking for. Almost every other album I've done w/2-pass averages ~215kbps.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ssjkakaroto on 2006-05-04 19:13:15
i've have waited a long time for the aac encoder to be separated from Nero and now it finally happened, and best of all for FREE

thx to all that made this possible!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2006-05-04 19:16:05
The server is alive. Problem must be at your end.

Nope. Never had any problems downloading from Nero servers (I usually get Nero updates on the first day). Could it be overcrowded?
That is why I asked for mirrors.

Quote
I would have no idea what would be supposed to go in such a thread.
(...)
What more info do you need?

Rough translation of q values to bitrates. Just having naming the presets won't do.

You know, like the lame V settings table.

And I feel-- and I'm sure I'm not the only one-- that

Quote
-ignorelength : Ignores length signaled by WAV headers of input file.
Useful for certain frontends using stdin.

is not clear enough.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: MuncherOfSpleens on 2006-05-04 19:19:07
I'm assuming that the -q setting is to be used exactly like in oggenc, except the number is divided by 10?  That seems to be about the equivalent.

Though overall I am quite impressed (and happy to finally have access to this encoder), I do have one complaint.  The encoder gives no indication of progress.  Once you hit enter it just sits there for a seemingly random period of time while it's encoding.  Showing the percentage of completion would keep me from thinking that it isn't working. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 19:24:25
I'm assuming that the -q setting is to be used exactly like in oggenc, except the number is divided by 10?  That seems to be about the equivalent.

Though overall I am quite impressed (and happy to finally have access to this encoder), I do have one complaint.  The encoder gives no indication of progress.  Once you hit enter it just sits there for a seemingly random period of time while it's encoding.  Showing the percentage of completion would keep me from thinking that it isn't working. 


Maybe not really the answer you wanted, but this can be handled by the frontend (foobar2000 will show progress, for example).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 19:41:45

The server is alive. Problem must be at your end.

Nope. Never had any problems downloading from Nero servers (I usually get Nero updates on the first day). Could it be overcrowded?
That is why I asked for mirrors.


No, as I already said, the server is alive.

Quote
Rough translation of q values to bitrates. Just having naming the presets won't do.

You know, like the lame V settings table.

And I feel-- and I'm sure I'm not the only one-- that


http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44283 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44283)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2006-05-04 19:44:11
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44283 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44283)


Thank you so very much.

Still no luck downloading, though.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: senab on 2006-05-04 19:45:22
Great stuff lads.

Been needing a good quality gapless AAC CLI encoder for a while now.
Tested out a couple of files and they all seem to be encoding at roughly 8.5x (1.4g Celeron laptop).

Liking the quality aswell of ~100kbits aswell. I'll post some ABX logs in a minute but I'm finding it very hard to hear a difference...

Here's the ABX report:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.1
2006/05/04 19:46:49

File A: C:\Documents and Settings\Chris\Desktop\Alone Tonight.m4a
File B: F:\Music\Above & Beyond\Tri-State\09. Above & Beyond - Alone Tonight.flac

19:46:49 : Test started.
19:48:44 : 01/01  50.0%
19:49:05 : 01/02  75.0%
19:50:19 : 01/03  87.5%
19:51:27 : 02/04  68.8%
19:52:29 : 02/05  81.3%
19:53:31 : 03/06  65.6%
19:54:22 : 03/07  77.3%
19:54:56 : 03/08  85.5%
19:55:16 : 03/09  91.0%
19:55:58 : 04/10  82.8%
19:57:30 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 4/10 (82.8%)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: brumal on 2006-05-04 19:56:02
Works wonderfully on my P4. Many thanks to the Nero MP4 devs for this and taking the time to be a part of this community.     
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Niphlod on 2006-05-04 20:14:01
perhaps bittorrent sources will resolve the problem, also here, ftp6 doesn't respond
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: br0adband on 2006-05-04 20:47:54
Thanks to Ivan and the whole Nero team for this release and their support of the community.

My question is related to tags: right now it doesn't seem like any tag info is being transferred and I'm not sure if that's a problem with my setup or I'm using the wrong command line parameters.

I'm using foobar2k 0.8.3, with the Nero encoder just released today and the command line I've settled on for testing at this point is one posted earlier in this thread:

q 0.425 -if - -of %d

Saw the suggestion about the fractional amounts and that 0.425 being approximately 128Kbps or so, which is just fine with me for my iPod. The FLAC files that I'm using as source material are fully tagged and the files are named Artist - Album - Track - Title.flac, so again I'm not sure where the issue lies.

My guess it I'm just missing something in the parameters, or perhaps the tags aren't going to transfer. If anyone can offer a solution or advice on this I'd greatly appreciate it. I've got 100GB of FLAC files that would fit nicely onto my 30GB Video iPod as m4a files.

Have fun, always...
bb
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 20:49:04
AMD problem has been solved, but it will take until tomorrow for the new version to be uploaded.

Apologise for the inconvinience caused to our AMD users.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: MuncherOfSpleens on 2006-05-04 20:56:55
perhaps bittorrent sources will resolve the problem, also here, ftp6 doesn't respond

Edit: Illegal link removed.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 20:58:07
My question is related to tags: right now it doesn't seem like any tag info is being transferred and I'm not sure if that's a problem with my setup or I'm using the wrong command line parameters.

I'm using foobar2k 0.8.3, with the Nero encoder just released today and the command line I've settled on for testing at this point is one posted earlier in this thread:

q 0.425 -if - -of %d

Saw the suggestion about the fractional amounts and that 0.425 being approximately 128Kbps or so, which is just fine with me for my iPod. The FLAC files that I'm using as source material are fully tagged and the files are named Artist - Album - Track - Title.flac, so again I'm not sure where the issue lies.

My guess it I'm just missing something in the parameters, or perhaps the tags aren't going to transfer. If anyone can offer a solution or advice on this I'd greatly appreciate it. I've got 100GB of FLAC files that would fit nicely onto my 30GB Video iPod as m4a files.



I'm using foobar 0.9.1's converter with FLACs and everything's tagging okay for me. My parameters differ slightly from yours, only due to the quality I've chosen (0.525)

I generally use Mp3tag to tag my FLACs. I doubt whatever you use (if any different) should cause the problem.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: askoff on 2006-05-04 20:58:43
Thanks Nero Audio team. This is a realy nice surprise indeed. You guys are amazing.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 20:59:39
Thanks to Ivan and the whole Nero team for this release and their support of the community.

My question is related to tags: right now it doesn't seem like any tag info is being transferred and I'm not sure if that's a problem with my setup or I'm using the wrong command line parameters.

I'm using foobar2k 0.8.3, with the Nero encoder just released today and the command line I've settled on for testing at this point is one posted earlier in this thread:

q 0.425 -if - -of %d

Saw the suggestion about the fractional amounts and that 0.425 being approximately 128Kbps or so, which is just fine with me for my iPod. The FLAC files that I'm using as source material are fully tagged and the files are named Artist - Album - Track - Title.flac, so again I'm not sure where the issue lies.

My guess it I'm just missing something in the parameters, or perhaps the tags aren't going to transfer. If anyone can offer a solution or advice on this I'd greatly appreciate it. I've got 100GB of FLAC files that would fit nicely onto my 30GB Video iPod as m4a files. 

Have fun, always...
bb


Can you try with foobar2000 0.9? I wouldn't know why 0.8.3 doesn't work, but I know for sure 0.9 will because it was tested
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 21:03:16
Actually, the bug was not AMD-related, but related to CPUs without SSE2 - so latest Intel and AMD chips were not affected by this bug.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: MuncherOfSpleens on 2006-05-04 21:05:16
Sorry.  I didn't know it was illegal.  I'll take the torrent down.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 21:05:54
Is there a change log for Nero's AAC encoder? Just to see the different versions and what work was done/bugs fixed and that sort of thing? I tried searching HA, but couldn't find anything.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: halb27 on 2006-05-04 21:06:51
....
Still no luck downloading, though.

I couldn't download with my browser too (guess however I have a general ftp problem with my browser).
I had no problem downloading with a specific ftp file transfer tool (FTP-Commander).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 21:07:58
Quote
Is there a change log for Nero's AAC encoder? Just to see the different versions and what work was done/bugs fixed and that sort of thing? I tried searching HA, but couldn't find anything.


Starting from the command-line version, we will maintain a changelog for every revision.

And, yes - expect regular revision and updates
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 21:08:40
Is there a change log for Nero's AAC encoder? Just to see the different versions and what work was done/bugs fixed and that sort of thing? I tried searching HA, but couldn't find anything.


We don't have any changelog (yet)[1], however, you can find some discussion in the Nero 7.2 thread. Several bugs which are discussed there are fixed in this encoder.

[1] It would generally look like:
1) Quality improved
2) Bugs fixed
3) Made it faster

going into more detail is tricky because it might reveal our secret sauce  But we'll see what we can do.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 21:13:42
Starting from the command-line version, we will maintain a changelog for every revision.

And, yes - expect regular revision and updates


Too bad there wasn't one up 'til now. I was just curious to see how much was changed. But, the fact that there will be one now is awesome. Thanks Ivan! 

going into more detail is tricky because it might reveal our secret sauce  But we'll see what we can do.


Well, I definitely don't want the magician to reveal the secret to his magic. It might just spoil the whole show. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: br0adband on 2006-05-04 21:23:23
No idea why this is happening (just for me it seems), but foobar2k 0.9.1 transfers the FLAC tag info properly, but 0.8.3 doesn't. Weird, very weird. Anyone else having this issue, or can do some testing with 0.8.3 installed into a different directory?

bb
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AlexanderTG on 2006-05-04 21:27:27
If I encode my speak audio files with this, is it legal for me to distribute these audio files?

Also, is it legal for me to distribute these exe's with my program?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 21:31:09
If I encode my speak audio files with this, is it legal for me to distribute these audio files?

Also, is it legal for me to distribute these exe's with my program?


AAC does *not* require you to pay patent royalities for distributing music, so I believe the answer to the first question would be "yes".

The answer to the second question can be found in the bundled "license.txt":

Quote
Nero AG licenses you to use this software package for personal non-commercial and/or technology-evaluation purposes.

This License does not provide any rights to reproduce and/or distribute this software package in whole or in any part.

A written license agreement with Nero AG is needed for any Commercial use of this software package, including, but not limited to, exploitation of products, which are incorporating and/or using, in whole or in part, executables provided in this software package.


So the answer is: "no".

PS. This is a personal opinion. I am not the Nero legal department!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: edekba on 2006-05-04 21:31:10

Hmmm using single pass created an audio file of 132kbps while a 2pass was 127kbps. Both sound the same to me ... just curious ...


I was experimenting with 2-pass vs single pass, and I noticed similar results. I had quality set to 0.6, and encoded Thursday's "A City by the Light Divided." Single pass came out around 74.4MB, with a bitrate ~224, whereas 2-pass came to 70.7MB with a bitrate of ~215. Interestingly enough, that's exactly the bitrate I was looking for. Almost every other album I've done w/2-pass averages ~215kbps.



yeah w/2pass the bitrate comes out more of what i wanted. But Garf said that we shoudlnt do 2pass vbr so i guess i gotta go lower w/the q values.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 21:34:46
No idea why this is happening (just for me it seems), but foobar2k 0.9.1 transfers the FLAC tag info properly, but 0.8.3 doesn't. Weird, very weird. Anyone else having this issue, or can do some testing with 0.8.3 installed into a different directory?

bb


Hi,

I asked Peter and he says MP4 tagging in foobar 0.9 is entirely rewritten. So quite likely, 0.8.3 has some bugs or issues that cause it to fail to work that are solved in the latest version.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 21:35:22
yeah w/2pass the bitrate comes out more of what i wanted. But Garf said that we shoudlnt do 2pass vbr so i guess i gotta go lower w/the q values.


It also takes way too much time to encode w/2-pass. If there's really no point in using it, then I figure I'm not going to waste my time. I did the same and lowered my q values.

Although, I believe the reason it takes so long is that I have all my music archived on DVD+R's, and foobar2k seems to like to convert 2 files at a time, which slows the whole process down quite a bit when it comes to transcoding directly from a DVD+R.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: IgorC on 2006-05-04 21:38:11
It's good to have floating point bitrate. Now  I can have exact bitrate 50.0 ..... 130.0 ....    . and It's free and less than 1 mb. Thank you
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 21:41:27
It's good to have floating point bitrate. Now  I can have exact bitrate 50.0 ..... 130.0 ....    . and It's free and less than 1 mb. Thank you


Bitrate is specified in bits/second, not kilobits/second.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: chichazor on 2006-05-04 21:42:37
Any mirror to download it? The ftp6 url don't work
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: IgorC on 2006-05-04 21:43:19
It's good to have floating point bitrate. Now  I can have exact bitrate 50.0 ..... 130.0 ....    . and It's free and less than 1 mb. Thank you


Bitrate is specified in bits/second, not kilobits/second.


I'm using -q  VBR mode.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 21:43:54
To Garf or Ivan:

I guess I'm just looking to clarification as to why 2-pass isn't a good idea with VBR. I know you mentioned video codecs doing 2-pass and its association with ABR. I also know that VBR should automatically figure the best way to allocate bits... I guess maybe I'm just looking for re-inforcement as to why I should opt out of using 2-pass (aside from longer encode times).

Cheers
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: edekba on 2006-05-04 21:44:57

yeah w/2pass the bitrate comes out more of what i wanted. But Garf said that we shoudlnt do 2pass vbr so i guess i gotta go lower w/the q values.


It also takes way too much time to encode w/2-pass. If there's really no point in using it, then I figure I'm not going to waste my time. I did the same and lowered my q values.

Although, I believe the reason it takes so long is that I have all my music archived on DVD+R's, and foobar2k seems to like to convert 2 files at a time, which slows the whole process down quite a bit when it comes to transcoding directly from a DVD+R.


i dont think its hte media source. it takes quite a bit w/hdd sources using 2pass. but then again it is going @ it twice ...
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2006-05-04 21:47:35
Any mirror to download it? The ftp6 url don't work


Please! Have tried everything!

I know your server is alive and well, but it is not working here!

ftp3 works well, for example.

What about Rarewares?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 21:47:39
i dont think its hte media source. it takes quite a bit w/hdd sources using 2pass. but then again it is going @ it twice ...


Well, unless I'm mistaken, data is burned onto a disc in linear fashion, and is read in linear fashion. Having two separate files being read causes the laser to jump around repeatedly, trying to multitask, which slows the spin-rate of the drive down significantly. (Off topic, sorry gang)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 21:51:38
Quote
I guess I'm just looking to clarification as to why 2-pass isn't a good idea with VBR. I know you mentioned video codecs doing 2-pass and its association with ABR. I also know that VBR should automatically figure the best way to allocate bits... I guess maybe I'm just looking for re-inforcement as to why I should opt out of using 2-pass (aside from longer encode times).


It is a question of terminology - 2-pass is of course VBR, but it does not make sense to use 2-pass with the -q option.

-q triggers "Quality VBR" mode - where bits are allocated per each frame to reach certain quality, so you don't really need two passes

-2pass triggers "2 Pass" mode - where encoder triggers to reach certain size - specified in average bits/second - file is still 'VBR'  but bit rate allocation obeys target file size and the quality is distributed equally by using analysis in the 1-pass
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: DARcode on 2006-05-04 21:52:34
Thank you very much for making this available for free!

Now onto being pesky: included readme.txt files says "Package build date: Apr 27 2006" while console output states "Package build date: May  1 2006".
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 21:54:36
Quote

I guess I'm just looking to clarification as to why 2-pass isn't a good idea with VBR. I know you mentioned video codecs doing 2-pass and its association with ABR. I also know that VBR should automatically figure the best way to allocate bits... I guess maybe I'm just looking for re-inforcement as to why I should opt out of using 2-pass (aside from longer encode times).


It is a question of terminology - 2-pass is of course VBR, but it does not make sense to use 2-pass with the -q option.

-q triggers "Quality VBR" mode - where bits are allocated per each frame to reach certain quality, so you don't really need two passes

-2pass triggers "2 Pass" mode - where encoder triggers to reach certain size - specified in average bits/second - file is still 'VBR'  but bit rate allocation obeys target file size and the quality is distributed equally by using analysis in the 1-pass


Thanks Ivan. I'm terribly obssessive-compulsive when it comes to audio, and sometimes it just helps hearing it from a pro (it's all in the mind, I know).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: br0adband on 2006-05-04 21:58:17
I'd say 2 pass audio encoding is a bit ridiculous, both from a time perspective (taking twice as long) and from a quality perspective (how good do you think your ears really are, anyway?). Just seems like the same old situation I commented about here at HA a few years ago: "When is it really good enough?" If you want that kind of quality, lossless is the way to go for most people.

As for the time it takes to encode from some format to another, it's not two steps, it's three formats unless you're encoding directly from a WAV file:

1) The original source file (stuff like mp3, flac, alac, ogg, etc).
2) The in-between data file (temporary) created when the source file (#1) is converted to WAV format since almost all encoders require WAV files to work with to encode.
3) The output format of your choice.

So when reading the data from media like a DVD or wherever, the data is read, decoded to WAV (directly into RAM would be the best possible method for speed but I think the temporary files are still hitting the hard drive), then the encoding phase starts. It would be nice if it were possible to just transcode directly from one format to another, but unless the source is a real WAV file, it's always 3 parts.

bb
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 22:01:30
Quote
I'd say 2 pass audio encoding is a bit ridiculous, both from a time perspective (taking twice as long) and from a quality perspective (how good do you think your ears really are, anyway?). Just seems like the same old situation I commented about here at HA a few years ago: "When is it really good enough?" If you want that kind of quality, lossless is the way to go for most people.


I think 2-pass makes a lot of sense with low-bitrate encoding of specific long content, such as long-duration tracks with human dialogs, silence and music - in this case, 2-pass encoding would make very good use of bits vs. quality as it would know that there is a lot of speech and/or silent content, and reuse this to improve more important parts.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 22:06:07
To Garf or Ivan:

I guess I'm just looking to clarification as to why 2-pass isn't a good idea with VBR. I know you mentioned video codecs doing 2-pass and its association with ABR. I also know that VBR should automatically figure the best way to allocate bits... I guess maybe I'm just looking for re-inforcement as to why I should opt out of using 2-pass (aside from longer encode times).

Cheers


2-pass is useful when you want to do an optimal bitrate allocation and you have to meet a specific average bitrate (or fixed size, which is the same thing). The first pass analyses the song with the psychoacoustics engine, and finds out where the hard and easy parts lie. The second pass uses this information to decide how to allocate the fixed number of bits it has.

The whole scheme does not make any sense when the encoder can spend as much bits as it needs (VBR mode).

(This whole thing made my think about ways to use the fact that with 2 pass mode we can see ahead further than in normal encoding, and there might actually be ways to exploit this, but they are most certainly not implemented let alone tested in the current encoder. For all I know, using 2 pass VBR with the current binary might make your Britney Spears tracks come out as Madonna, or something).


Thank you very much for making this available for free!

Now onto being pesky: included readme.txt files says "Package build date: Apr 27 2006" while console output states "Package build date: May  1 2006".


We prepared it last week, but when it wasn't up on the website this weekend I sent a new encoder with further improvements (and apparently, not a clear enough indication that, yes, the SSE2 build is faster, but no, it's not gonna work on all machines...  sorry people). The commandline options didn't change in those few days.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 22:08:10
I'd say 2 pass audio encoding is a bit ridiculous, both from a time perspective (taking twice as long) and from a quality perspective (how good do you think your ears really are, anyway?). Just seems like the same old situation I commented about here at HA a few years ago: "When is it really good enough?" If you want that kind of quality, lossless is the way to go for most people.

As for the time it takes to encode from some format to another, it's not two steps, it's three formats unless you're encoding directly from a WAV file:

1) The original source file (stuff like mp3, flac, alac, ogg, etc).
2) The in-between data file (temporary) created when the source file (#1) is converted to WAV format since almost all encoders require WAV files to work with to encode.
3) The output format of your choice.

So when reading the data from media like a DVD or wherever, the data is read, decoded to WAV (directly into RAM would be the best possible method for speed but I think the temporary files are still hitting the hard drive), then the encoding phase starts. It would be nice if it were possible to just transcode directly from one format to another, but unless the source is a real WAV file, it's always 3 parts.

bb


Thanks for that bb. Although my ears are quite sensitive when it comes to audio. I'm sure thousands have said it before and, of course, it's completely relative. I do see the point in staying away from 2-pass now though, so thanks again.

As for my ears, take a listen to "Going Under" by Evanescence. At around 0:15 into the song there's a pop as Amy's saying "bleeding." I noticed that when I first heard the CD and it drove me so mad that I actually found the sample in the WAV of the song (there was quite the spike in the sine wave) and smoothed it out, which goes quite against a purist's best interests, I know. Most listeners don't pay attention, but I actually listen to my music.

It's maddening actually. You have no idea how hard it was for me to break down and use lossy codecs. Alas, for convenience certain sacrifices need to be made.

I'm crazy, I know. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-04 22:44:02
Thanks for the gift. I would include the configuration into MAREO.

A little comment, why not use ISO date format for the filename?

NeroDigitalAudio_050106.zip is 2006-05-01, or 2006-01-05?

NeroDigitalAudio_yyyy-mm-dd.zip is much better

What would be the command line equivalent of what was used on sebastian mares' listening test?

EDIT: there is no artist, album, etc tag options right?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: br0adband on 2006-05-04 22:47:00
No worries, didn't want my post to come across as "Oh the hell with that, stop being stupid and just use it." That's not the case.

A few years ago I made a pretty intense posting here explaining how I'd been using mp3 encoders since *before* they became anything Shawn Fanning ever heard of and created Napster. Audio quality is and always has been a big BIG thing to me, but after almost 8 years of dealing with it, encoding, testing, re-encoding, re-testing, redoing entire collections of CDs just because a "better" encoder came out, the whole cycle repeats, ad nauseum.

There comes a time when you have to make a decision, sorta:

Either listen and enjoy the tunes, or continue searching for perfection and that next step, which rarely if ever actually becomes a reality. Such is the nature of psychoacoustic audio compression, basically. I just got tired of preaching EAC + LAME for years and worrying so much about perfect rips, perfect sound, perfect etc... I finally gave it all up and said to myself, "Screw it, it sounds good enough to me.

So yeah, I understand the quest better than most, actually. I was there where you're at, could slip right back into it easily, but it works like this:

I was sitting down early this morning to begin using dBpowerAMP Music Converter and the iTunesEncoder plugin to change all my FLAC files (on DVD) into plain old VBR AAC files (128Kbps nominally) then add the album artwork for all of 'em and slap 'em on my new 30GB Video iPod I just bought a few days ago. Someone here in Vegas won two of 'em when his wife hit a bonus on a slot machine at a casino, so they sold the second one to me for $200.

Lo and behold, the tagging was becoming an issue of sorts, so I popped into HA this morning and was downright blown away by Ivan's announcement about the free MP4/AAC encoder and snagged it and started working with it. While iTunes is ok for the encoding, it's damned slow, so since I didn't get too far into the stack of DVDs, I just deleted the work I had already done and will be redoing all 100GB with this Nero encoder - and now that I've worked out the tagging issue with 0.8.3 (it's still there, I just mean that I'm aware of it now so I'm using 0.9.1 for all the encoding), I'm all set and ready to spend the evening encoding from DVD to M4A.

</hijack_off>

Thanks again to Ivan, Garf (forgot to mention him earlier) and the whole Ahead/Nero gang for their wonderful products and continued support.

bb

Garf: And yep, I understand the usefulness of 2-pass encoding for very specific situations, but for general purpose audio encoding (meaning portable playback on portable devices which is the most common reason for using audio compression in the first place, I think), 2-pass just seems like a waste of that much more time, but to each his own. My opinions on the matter aren't meant to sway anyone, heaven forbid.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2006-05-04 22:54:35
Is there any shot of this being available for us OS X users?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: xmixahlx on 2006-05-04 22:59:38
Linux is actually on the way

sweet jesus!

it's a miracle!

thanks
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-04 23:00:32
To bb:

Wow. Much respect directed at you for that post, bro.

I am also settling in for a nice evening (and possibly weekend--about 200GB of FLAC to go through) of encoding.

We should do e-coffee. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 23:05:13
Quote
Garf: And yep, I understand the usefulness of 2-pass encoding for very specific situations, but for general purpose audio encoding (meaning portable playback on portable devices which is the most common reason for using audio compression in the first place, I think), 2-pass just seems like a waste of that much more time, but to each his own. My opinions on the matter aren't meant to sway anyone, heaven forbid. biggrin.gif


Well, here is the deal - this is why we released this 'prosumer' hi-end encoding solution.  We do not want to limit people in any way with this encoder as long they use this tool for their personal content encodings, and for strictly non-comercial use - if they wish to use 2-pass, and/or have a need to do so - so be it.

This is not a product for novices, this is a product for people that know exactly what they want to accomplish.  Of course, our quality settings are optimized to give best quality for a given bit-rate / quality levels,  but it is up to the user to decide what size he wants, and what additional methods he would wish to use in the process (e.g. 2-pass, optimizing for streaming, etc...)

As far as the platform support goes - Win32 was the immediate target.  Linux will follow shortly.

As for OS-X - this is something we will definitely think about.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: br0adband on 2006-05-04 23:22:07
Quote
To bb:

Wow. Much respect directed at you for that post, bro.

I am also settling in for a nice evening (and possibly weekend--about 200GB of FLAC to go through) of encoding.

We should do e-coffee.


Cool, and thanks. I'm on IRC (EFnet) almost constantly with this nick of mine or YIM at: br0adband_2003 so look me up sometime. I'm on the way out the door now to demo a pair of Shure E3c's for this iPod, can't buy 'em tonight but I've never heard anything bad about 'em so we'll see what happens.

Ivan: Thanks again for the efforts you and your friends are creating.

bb
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-04 23:28:15
This is a very exciting bit of news! I've just read through the entire thread, but there are still a few points from the announcement/download page on which I am unclear (see the bold text quoted below):
Quote
* Compression Ratios ranging from ultra high (58 CDs fit on one!) to High-End Audio (2.5:1), for absolutely perfect audiophile encodings
    * Crystal Clear, Award Winning Sound Quality at every compression ratio and bit rate!
    * Support for Embedded Album Art (Covers, Booklets, Lyrics!)
    * Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!
    * Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Codec
    * Fully Compatible with the Latest Version of the State-of-the-art MPEG-4 Audio Standard (LC-AAC, HE-AAC and HE-AAC v2)

Any hints on how these features are implemented, and how to instruct the program to use them? If they function as advertised, this is exactly the sort of command-line codec that feeds my fantasies... but as others have previously noted, running the program with -help is not (yet) very helpful.

Also, I am sure someone is working on a dedicated frontend (isn't that the inevitable outcome?), but I've still seen no mention of one. Did I miss it?

Congratulations on the launch of what is sure to become a popular command-line encoder! Very much looking forward to following the progress of this one.

    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 23:32:25
I will post information about these features soon.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: br0adband on 2006-05-04 23:33:31
Well for me, I just ripped about 150 songs at random from one of my FLAC backup DVDs, encoded with foobar2k 0.9.1 and the Nero encoder, loaded the songs into my iTunes library, added the album artwork, then updated the iPod. Not one issue and it sounds great. YMMV, however.

I'm sure in time a GUI frontend will appear (I bet someone's already working on it, perhaps Ivan and the gang themselves <hint, hint>). But definitely, great news all around.

bb
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-04 23:33:51
I will post information about these features soon.


Thank you.

    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Serge Smirnoff on 2006-05-04 23:36:19
Today new 128 kbit/s listening test started at SoundExpert.  Going to add this precious  gift from Nero to the test. Still not decided what mode to choose:

1.   “-q X.XX” and manually target 128 kbit/s or
2.   “2-pass” and let encoder make it automatically.

Or may be to wait a little bit for some possible bugs discovered/fixed?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-04 23:40:21
Also, I am sure someone is working on a dedicated frontend (isn't that the inevitable outcome?), but I've still seen no mention of one. Did I miss it?


We call ours Nero Burning ROM.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-04 23:41:33
Quote
Today new 128 kbit/s listening test started at SoundExpert. Going to add this precious gift from Nero to the test. Still not decided what mode to choose:


Don't know if your conditions permit - but it might make sense to include VBR, ABR and 2-pass modes in the test, just to see how they perform against each other... or at least 2 of them.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Serge Smirnoff on 2006-05-04 23:45:53
Don't know if your conditions permit - but it might make sense to include VBR, ABR and 2-pass modes in the test, just to see how they perform against each other... or at least 2 of them.

"Conditions permit". What modes you recommend?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: edekba on 2006-05-04 23:48:32
To Garf or Ivan:

I guess I'm just looking to clarification as to why 2-pass isn't a good idea with VBR. I know you mentioned video codecs doing 2-pass and its association with ABR. I also know that VBR should automatically figure the best way to allocate bits... I guess maybe I'm just looking for re-inforcement as to why I should opt out of using 2-pass (aside from longer encode times).

Cheers


2-pass is useful when you want to do an optimal bitrate allocation and you have to meet a specific average bitrate (or fixed size, which is the same thing). The first pass analyses the song with the psychoacoustics engine, and finds out where the hard and easy parts lie. The second pass uses this information to decide how to allocate the fixed number of bits it has.
The whole scheme does not make any sense when the encoder can spend as much bits as it needs (VBR mode).

(This whole thing made my think about ways to use the fact that with 2 pass mode we can see ahead further than in normal encoding, and there might actually be ways to exploit this, but they are most certainly not implemented let alone tested in the current encoder. For all I know, using 2 pass VBR with the current binary might make your Britney Spears tracks come out as Madonna, or something).


Britney Spears comes out as Britney Spears as i've tried hahah. But just the bitrate is a lil lower than a 1pass encoding. And my ears arent good enuf to tell the difference between 1or2 passes.

Quote
As far as the platform support goes - Win32 was the immediate target. Linux will follow shortly.

As for OS-X - this is something we will definitely think about.


If linux will follow than a port to darwin/osx shoudlnt be too far off right?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: NumLOCK on 2006-05-05 00:03:51
Linux is actually on the way

Great !!  Can't wait to try it 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: emtee on 2006-05-05 00:16:53
Sounds really promising, wish I could give it a try. How long till the UNIX version? Can you elaborate on that?
Thanks a lot for the generous offer.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Leo 69 on 2006-05-05 00:19:56

Also, I am sure someone is working on a dedicated frontend (isn't that the inevitable outcome?), but I've still seen no mention of one. Did I miss it?


We call ours Nero Burning ROM.


In what way do I encode using Nero ?

?TW, when will be a binary for Athlon XP users available ?
Thanks 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 00:28:35
Sounds really promising, wish I could give it a try. How long till the UNIX version? Can you elaborate on that?
Thanks a lot for the generous offer.


Either

1 Nero Month.

or

When it's done
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: smok3 on 2006-05-05 00:35:56
now, how cool is that!   

some examples for noobs:
quality based:
neroaacenc -lc -q 0.5 -if file.wav -of file_q05.mp4

bitrate based:
vbr
neroaacenc -lc -br 131072 -if file.wav -of file_br128.mp4
cbr
neroaacenc -lc -cbr 131072 -if file.wav -of file_cbr128.mp4

(the play fine in faac based players (fb2k, mplayer) and also in real player.)

edit: 'mp4box -isma file.mp4' makes them work in qt7 as well.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kurtnoise on 2006-05-05 00:50:57

Linux is actually on the way

Great !!  Can't wait to try it 

Actually, it works fine through Wine... 

(http://kurtnoise.free.fr/NDAACenc.png)

but, I'm waiting also the Linux version.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-05 02:11:59
Also, I am sure someone is working on a dedicated frontend (isn't that the inevitable outcome?), but I've still seen no mention of one. Did I miss it?
We call ours Nero Burning ROM.

That's what I love about you Garf... you've got a wonderful sense of humor. 

Not to knock Nero Burning Rom - it's a great program. It just isn't the great program for me. My retail copy (yes, as in "purchased") didn't get used very much, as I generally burn ISO images from the command-line and audio from EAC. So I uninstalled it.

If a command-line version and/or a small-footprint GUI are available instead, I am more likely to make extensive use of the encoder. Either way I'm looking forward to experimenting with it.

Cheers,
    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Zoom on 2006-05-05 02:56:28
Quote
    * Compression Ratios ranging from ultra high (58 CDs fit on one!) to High-End Audio (2.5:1), for absolutely perfect audiophile encodings
    * Crystal Clear, Award Winning Sound Quality at every compression ratio and bit rate!
    * Support for Embedded Album Art (Covers, Booklets, Lyrics!)
    * Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!
    * Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Codec
    * Fully Compatible with the Latest Version of the State-of-the-art MPEG-4 Audio Standard (LC-AAC, HE-AAC and HE-AAC v2)

Any hints on how these features are implemented, and how to instruct the program to use them? If they function as advertised, this is exactly the sort of command-line codec that feeds my fantasies... but as others have previously noted, running the program with -help is not (yet) very helpful.

The Chapter support works with foobar2000 0.9.1's converter. Just choose the output function "convert to album images with cuesheet or chapters". I tested this feature already. I tried to use Mp3tag to add album art, but it erased some of the tags. Not sure if it's a setting that I have wrong or if Mp3tag 2.35 and foobar2000 0.9.1 have incompatible implementations of MP4 tagging.

@ Nero Developers: Keep up the good work. Excellent to see a tool like this released. I prefer the command line to the old implementation very much, and I don't think I'm alone.

EDIT: Oops quoted the wrong person.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ssjkakaroto on 2006-05-05 03:12:37
i just tested on a friend's computer and found something strange that was easily reproduceable
i was able to encode chord.wav (the one that comes bundled with windoze) using any value 0 <= and >= 0.6 but with any value >= 0.6 i got this message:
Code: [Select]
*************************************************************
*                                                           *
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder *
*  Copyright (C) 2006 Nero AG                               *
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide                            *
*                                                           *
*  Package build date: Apr 27 2006                          *
*                                                           *
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.   *
*                                                           *
*************************************************************
ERROR: could not open AAC encoder


and a question: to hit a desired file size using 2 pass i just have to find out what bitrate would give me that size for that length and use this bitrate with neroaacenc right?

tia
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Enig123 on 2006-05-05 03:32:54
I have an old P3 box and cannot try this surprising aac coder in the first time.

Will it be a normal version that can be running even on an older one, like P2? For me, a mmx & sse (no mmx ext.) optimized version is all I want to get. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: edekba on 2006-05-05 04:24:00
I have an old P3 box and cannot try this surprising aac coder in the first time.

Will it be a normal version that can be running even on an older one, like P2? For me, a mmx & sse (no mmx ext.) optimized version is all I want to get. 



I believe Ivan said they are rls a non SSE soon, because a lot of AMD Athlon XP users were exp bugs.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-05 04:38:50
I have succesfully tested it under Windows 2000 on a Pentium M ThinkPad. I have added configuration option for MAREO 3.3.

It works perfect, even if you can't see any progress till it finished.

MAREO can be downloaded from here: http://www.webearce.com.ar/mareo.rar (http://www.webearce.com.ar/mareo.rar)

Just to make sure, there are no tagin options right?

PS: maybe it was overlooked, so,

A little comment, why not use ISO date format for the filename?

NeroDigitalAudio_050106.zip is 2006-05-01, or 2006-01-05? NeroDigitalAudio_yyyy-mm-dd.zip is much better
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Enig123 on 2006-05-05 06:34:34
Ivan:

What exactly does the option "-2passperiod" mean and how does it may affect the quality of encoded file? I guess the default, i.e., zero, is recommended right?

Since this encoder is for professionals, someone may be curious with all possibilities it can produce out. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 07:16:18
i just tested on a friend's computer and found something strange that was easily reproduceable
i was able to encode chord.wav (the one that comes bundled with windoze) using any value 0 <= and >= 0.6 but with any value >= 0.6 i got this message:
Code: [Select]
*************************************************************
*                                                           *
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder *
*  Copyright (C) 2006 Nero AG                               *
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide                            *
*                                                           *
*  Package build date: Apr 27 2006                          *
*                                                           *
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.   *
*                                                           *
*************************************************************
ERROR: could not open AAC encoder


It's because the file has a 22kHz samplingrate.



and a question: to hit a desired file size using 2 pass i just have to find out what bitrate would give me that size for that length and use this bitrate with neroaacenc right?


Yes.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Kef on 2006-05-05 08:08:00
The encoder crashes on my nForce2/Athlon XP (Barton) workstation but works well on my Acer Ferrari 4005 with ATI chipset and Turion 64. Does anybody else have problems with this release (050106) on the XP platform?

On my Athlon XP I can't even see the switches by entering neroAacEnc.exe -help before I get a window popping up saying: neroAacEnc.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

/Kef
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Destroid on 2006-05-05 08:11:45
Nero AAC devs,

Let me say also say, "Awesome work!"

A64 3000+, FB2K 0.9.1, converted image+cue to MP4 with chapters, 13.6x   
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Latexxx on 2006-05-05 08:26:24
The encoder crashes on my nForce2/Athlon XP (Barton) workstation but works well on my Acer Ferrari 4005 with ATI chipset and Turion 64. Does anybody else have problems with this release (050106) on the XP platform?

On my Athlon XP I can't even see the switches by entering neroAacEnc.exe -help before I get a window popping up saying: neroAacEnc.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

/Kef


It's already been stated many times that the encoder currently requires support for sse2 instructions which isn't available in athlon xp's, pentium threes and older machines.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Kef on 2006-05-05 08:57:01

The encoder crashes on my nForce2/Athlon XP (Barton) workstation but works well on my Acer Ferrari 4005 with ATI chipset and Turion 64. Does anybody else have problems with this release (050106) on the XP platform?

On my Athlon XP I can't even see the switches by entering neroAacEnc.exe -help before I get a window popping up saying: neroAacEnc.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close. We are sorry for the inconvenience.

/Kef


It's already been stated many times that the encoder currently requires support for sse2 instructions which isn't available in athlon xp's, pentium threes and older machines.


Sorry, my bad, but I didn't see any information about the SSE2 requirements on the download page or in the archive. Maybe it would be a good idea to do a SSE2 check and and display a proper error message that SSE2 is required to avoid confusion in the future.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: loophole on 2006-05-05 09:07:28
You mentioned a linux version was in the works, does this mean an OS X version would be possible as well?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 09:33:32
Don't know if your conditions permit - but it might make sense to include VBR, ABR and 2-pass modes in the test, just to see how they perform against each other... or at least 2 of them.

"Conditions permit". What modes you recommend?


I would recommend:

- Nero ABR (-br 128000)
- Nero 2-Pass (-br 128000 -2pass)
- Nero Quality VBR (-q 0.425)

You mentioned a linux version was in the works, does this mean an OS X version would be possible as well?


Code is itself cross-platform so everything is possible - but it needs time, right?

New encoder is up - SSE2 problem is fixed.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: towolf on 2006-05-05 09:47:20
New encoder is up - SSE2 problem is fixed.

And there's some duplication in the zip making it ~ 2Meg.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 09:48:07
There are two versions of the encoder in the package - one with SSE2 instructions, and one without.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Latexxx on 2006-05-05 09:53:02
There are two versions of the encoder in the package - one with SSE2 instructions, and one without.

It isn't really that hard to make the encoder to check processor's capabilities on runtime and adjust as required. Unless you are just using some compiler optimisations.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-05 09:53:16
There are two versions of the encoder in the package - one with SSE2 instructions, and one without.


Thanks!

.. why are there 4 encoders in the .zip file?

(rhetorical question, just trying to avoid confusion and save you 1MB bandwidth per click )
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: SirGrey on 2006-05-05 09:57:01
Cool 
Thanks !
Start playing... 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: towolf on 2006-05-05 10:18:17
There are two versions of the encoder in the package - one with SSE2 instructions, and one without.


This is what I meant:
Code: [Select]
Archive:  Desktop/NeroDigitalAudio.zip
  Length     Date   Time    Name
--------    ----   ----    ----
     2592  05-02-06 16:11   readme.txt
        0  05-04-06 21:21   win32/
   446464  04-26-06 23:04   win32/neroAacDec.exe
   823296  05-01-06 12:51   win32/neroAacEnc.exe
   876544  05-01-06 13:01   win32/neroAacEnc_sse2.exe
     4319  04-26-06 09:26   license.txt
   823296  05-01-06 12:51   neroAacEnc.exe
   876544  05-01-06 13:01   neroAacEnc_sse2.exe
--------                   -------
  3853055                   8 files
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 10:19:55
Should be fixed by now
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-05 10:25:20
ok, no more crashes now
works nice in foobar 0.8.3 (with -ignorelength switch), tagging is no problem also. just make sure you select the "default" tag option 

encoding speed is 8-9x on a Barton 2 GHz and the non-SSE2 version

the default quality (-q 0.5) gives around 160k for rock music which is exactly what I was looking for (--preset fast medium user here)

the lowpass at q 0.5 looks like a 18 KHz hard cutoff

very promising, to say the least
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Kef on 2006-05-05 10:29:00
Should be fixed by now


Thanks! 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-05 10:50:02
Ivan what about "-2passperiod" option. And did i can use 2pass with VBR
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 10:53:57
-2passperiod  -> this option allows you to average to specific bit-rate over certain period of time.  Value is in milliseconds (so 1000 means 1 second)

For example, if you have a 120 minute track, and you used 2-pass you can average to, e.g. 128 kbps at every 5 minutes, etc...

By default, average period is the entire duration of the encoding.

Quote
And did i can use 2pass with VBR


Please use 2pass with -br switch.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-05 10:57:58
Quote
Please use 2pass with -br switch.
OK then

I am now tested everything in new encoder i think is everything right.

5.1 encoding is SUPERB aslo i tested 2pass which make 5.1 encoding INSANE quality.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-05 11:02:40
Hmm, reading the posts here I would suggest disabling the pure vbr+2pass combination by next chance.

I don't know exactly how it works, but in my imagination it's like going through 2 psychoaccoustic analyses, which is rather counterproductive. Unless the second run is pure quantization, it would be a little like re-encoding, or am I wrong?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 11:06:36
There will be a lot of new speedups in 2-pass encoding in the future, as there is definitely a room for that.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-05 11:07:40
The Chapter support works with foobar2000 0.9.1's converter. Just choose the output function "convert to album images with cuesheet or chapters".

Yes, being fully MPEG-4 compliant it would work fine with any external muxing solution such as foobar2000's chapter conversion... or for that matter, with MP4Box's chapter muxing if tags are then added with Atomic Parsley. (Do it in that order though, or muxing the chapters will erase some existing tags!)

I was hoping the new encoder had internal support for muxing chapters and adding tags/artwork, as the "Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!" description might lead one to believe. Perhaps - if this is not already implemented in some hidden option - support for adding chapters and tags from a CD-TEXT CUE-sheet and embedding specified artwork from files could be added to future versions?

    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 11:26:17

There are two versions of the encoder in the package - one with SSE2 instructions, and one without.

It isn't really that hard to make the encoder to check processor's capabilities on runtime and adjust as required. Unless you are just using some compiler optimisations. 


It already does that. The not-SSE2 binary can still use SSE, SSE2 or SSE3 when it detects that it is possible. The SSE2 binary just uses it everywhere without checking the system it's running on first, which gives an additional 10% performance gain (and a crash if it wasn't supported).

Automatic selection doesn't seem to be possible with the current version of MSVC 2005, which we use, hence the seperate binaries.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: KAMiKAZOW on 2006-05-05 11:44:55
As for OS-X - this is something we will definitely think about.
Cool. I hope you'll relaese a Mac version soon.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AlexanderTG on 2006-05-05 11:47:23
In the readme file is says the usage is:

neroAacEnc.exe [options] -if <input-file> -of <output-file>

It then says:

Specify - to encode from stdin.

If I want to transcode from flac to mp4 using neroAacEnc.exe, what would I type in the command line?
Similarly if I want to transcode from wavpack to neroAacEnc.exe, what would I type in the command line?

Thanks for the info so far.

Ax
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 11:49:37
Nero AAC encoder only works with PCM WAV files (it can support 16, 24, 32 bit depths as well as floating point)

In order to process FLAC, MP3 or any other files to AAC with Nero command-line encoder, you need to feed the encoder with already decoded PCM frames.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AlexanderTG on 2006-05-05 11:53:06
So you can't set flac.exe to stdout its output and set neroenc to stdin flac output?  Sorry for the dumbness of this question!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 11:56:27
I can only say from neroAacEnc side - it should work when you pipe it with wave data as STDIN
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AlexanderTG on 2006-05-05 12:06:14
Thanks

Im at work at the moment so I cant test it.  I found the following which pipes from flac to mp3

FLAC --decode --stdout file.flac | LAME -V2 --vbr-new - file.mp3

So can anyone test if the following works from the commandline?

FLAC --decode --stdout <input-file> | neroAacEnc.exe [options] -if - -of <output-file>

Thanks

Ax
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2006-05-05 12:12:32
Tested.  Bit-compares to file created from original wave.

NB:I've not seen so many people huddled in a thread since 0.9 was released.

Well done Garf and Ivan.

Working here on AMD now BTW.

Edit: Command lines used:

Code: [Select]
FLAC --decode --stdout "20.flac" | neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.45 -if - -of "20.mp4"
neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.45 -if "20.wav" -of "20w.mp4"
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AlexanderTG on 2006-05-05 12:15:51
Thanks
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2006-05-05 12:33:48
NB: You should really let foobar 0.9 do this for you, so that tags are converted also.

If you do this on the command line all your FLAC tags will simply be lost.

See the Nero AAC Recommended Settings (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44283&hl=) thread for info on setting up foobar.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AlexanderTG on 2006-05-05 12:38:53
IC!

How would you go about tagging the files without foobar?  Can it be done in 1 step using the commandline?  So, pipes from flac to mp4 and tagging.  I'm guessing foobar is using one of the popular tagging commandline programs?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-05 12:42:08
foobar just slaps on the tags itself after encode, just set the right CLI encoder options
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AlexanderTG on 2006-05-05 12:51:31
Thanks

Ok, I couldn't wait, I downloaded it to test it out!

I have to questions for the developers:

1. Why is there no percentage report on the commandline when using -2pass
2. Why is it not possible to use stdin and -2pass at the same time

Thanks
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 12:54:48
Thanks
2. Why is it not possible to use stdin and -2pass at the same time


Because that can't possibly work unless the encoder caches all audio data somewhere, which would be quite painful if you're encoding a DVD soundtrack? You can't seek backwards in standard input.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-05 12:56:54
How would you go about tagging the files without foobar?  Can it be done in 1 step using the commandline?  So, pipes from flac to mp4 and tagging.  I'm guessing foobar is using one of the popular tagging commandline programs?

You could use AtomicParsley (http://atomicparsley.sourceforge.net/) to do something like this:
Code: [Select]
AtomicParsley <input.m4a> --artist <Artist> --album <Album> --genre <Genre> --year <Year> --artwork <Path-to-your-artwork.jpg>

    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2006-05-05 13:16:51
But you need to extract the meta data from the FLAC file somehow first...

Tag.exe has the --fromfile switch, but it won't tag MP4.

Ooh, this is getting a little OT...  maybe if I thank Ivan and Garf again I can get away with it...
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AlexanderTG on 2006-05-05 13:33:56
Yes, it is a fantastic program!  I was just being picky.  Really Sorry!

Garf, I see your point.

Thanks
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ssjkakaroto on 2006-05-05 14:25:44
hi, i just got the new file NeroDigitalAudio.zip (md5: c9e36ca81f7eee438c729f4fe8b9abf3) and i'm getting this error with any wav file i try to encode using the non ss2 version (neroaacenc -q 0.5 -if 001.wav -of 001.mp4):
ERROR: could not open WAV file

the pc here at work is a p2 300mhz using win98 se.
could this be some unicode issue?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 15:06:38
Yes - this package is in fact fully Unicode.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ssjkakaroto on 2006-05-05 15:36:43
thx Ivan, can you add this Note on the download page?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Creature on 2006-05-05 15:40:47
Yes - this package is in fact fully Unicode.

Unicode & ecnoder/decoder... Unicode is REALLY needed for such kind of tasks? 
But... I want to ask a question about decoder part:
I want decode MONO AAC, but output wav is a "stereo".    It's a old... "feature" of FAAD, but can you fix it, please?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Firon on 2006-05-05 15:45:23
Unicode is needed for sure: Unicode filenames, paths, and tags. They're not uncommon.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 15:51:50
Quote
Unicode & ecnoder/decoder... Unicode is REALLY nedeed for such task? blink.gif


In fact it is needed for handling tags and other metadata which is in Unicode - we do conform to Unicode for all our metadata and also for all handling of the file names etc..., and I don't think switching back to half-hacks is a good idea.

Quote
But... I want to ask a question about decoder part:
I want decode MONO AAC, but output wav is a "stereo". dry.gif It's a old... "feature" of FAAD, but can you fix it, please?


We will work on this - there is a solution.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ssjkakaroto on 2006-05-05 15:57:04
i'm glad it's fully unicode, it's one less thing to worry about when trying to encode files with "strange" characters.
if it wasn't, sooner or later people would ask for it
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Squeller on 2006-05-05 16:40:56
Thx for making this available for the non sse2 processors.

1. The quality (-q) versus the abr (-br) setting:

Are the algorithms similar or does the abr use a rather conservative algorithm in the coice of bitrates at a certain point?

2. What are the min/max values for -br?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 17:31:18
Thx for making this available for the non sse2 processors.

1. The quality (-q) versus the abr (-br) setting:

Are the algorithms similar or does the abr use a rather conservative algorithm in the coice of bitrates at a certain point?


VBR(-q) only looks at what the psymodel says. ABR may need to compensate to meet the target average bitrate.

Quote
2. What are the min/max values for -br?


12kbps to 465kbps for stereo
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jimhaddon on 2006-05-05 18:23:36
When i try to encode using the -br method, it just says SBR not found?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-05 18:29:10
Linux is actually on the way


Oh man, I don't even know what to say. I've been rebooting into windows and going through the whole EAC + Itunes encode + Itunes fiasco to encode my new CDs. This way I'll be able to do it all from KAudioCreator!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 18:42:51
When i try to encode using the -br method, it just says SBR not found?


You probably didn't read the help closely enough. (bits != kilobits)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-05 21:00:23
Why HE profile can be used with higer rates than 160kbs, i try to encode to 256kbs with sbr

Quote
neroAacEnc.exe -he -cbr 256000 -if Track 07.wav -of Track 074.mp4


i get error message

Quote
ERROR: no valid SBR configuration found


And can you define what is max bitrates for all modes including 5.1, Thanks
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sebastian Mares on 2006-05-05 21:09:20
What use should SBR have at bitrates higher than 96 kbps anyways?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-05 21:12:10
I am doing some tests, a wanna see something. btw in 5.1 encoding i think is better to use for example 192kbs HE than LC
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 21:38:37
Quote
And can you define what is max bitrates for all modes including 5.1, Thanks


SBR works up to 192 kbps for 5.1 content - so basically there are two things that could be done:

a) erroring out (like it is done now)
b) adding presets for 256 kbps, but spitting out warning that LC-AAC might actually be a better choice

We will look into possibility b)  whether it is feasible.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-05 22:16:20
Thanks Ivan, but i have only to see how codec works on 88.2khz.

I think implementing SBR High Bitrate like CT then no posibilites to get erroring, like add switch -highsbr or something like this, and what you think about various stereo modes like CT.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-05 22:33:48
Quote
Thanks Ivan, but i have only to see how codec works on 88.2khz.


I had seen it work @88.2 kHz some time ago ;-)

Quote
I think implementing SBR High Bitrate like CT then no posibilites to get erroring, like add switch -highsbr or something like this,


Although our encoder does algorithmically support "downsampled SBR" or "single-rate SBR" or "high-bitrate SBR"  we do not export this option to the frontend.

The reason for this choice is because this particular codec mode puts tremendous burden to the audio decoder (cuts the decoding speed in half), while bringing no audible advantage over LC mode at the same bit-rate, and this has been tested in various listening tests by now.

I would like to point out - that the power of Nero Digital Audio will also be devices that play it in the future - with all the great features ND Audio brings.

If we allowed the single-rate SBR, I am afraid that many mobile device vendors would not be able to support this, as it would require very strong DSPs or embedded CPUs to support this - with no quality gains.

Quote
and what you think about various stereo modes like CT.


My opinion was always to leave encoder to decide what to use (LR, M/S, IS, etc...) - and thresholds for decision were set during the tuning process. 

There is no need to allow modification I think, as there is much higher chance for non-experienced users to make settings that actually damage sound quality - and generate bad image for the complete technology when they listen to songs they made with "tweaked" codec (e.g. like with old MP3 encoders)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-05 23:00:31
Quote
I had seen it work @88.2 kHz some time ago ;-)
Good old encoder ;-)

Quote
Although our encoder does algorithmically support "downsampled SBR" or "single-rate SBR" or "high-bitrate SBR" we do not export this option to the frontend.
You think Nero automaticly downsample 88->44khz. Why, i newer have bad things with CT encodings and devices

Quote
The reason for this choice is because this particular codec mode puts tremendous burden to the audio decoder (cuts the decoding speed in half), while bringing no audible advantage over LC mode at the same bit-rate, and this has been tested in various listening tests by now.

I would like to point out - that the power of Nero Digital Audio will also be devices that play it in the future - with all the great features ND Audio brings.

If we allowed the single-rate SBR, I am afraid that many mobile device vendors would not be able to support this, as it would require very strong DSPs or embedded CPUs to support this - with no quality gains.
Thas is good reason, but i not say that for example 192kbsSBR is better than 192NONSBR. Did someone do tests with SBR @ higer rates comparing to LC

Quote
My opinion was always to leave encoder to decide what to use (LR, M/S, IS, etc...) - and thresholds for decision were set during the tuning process.
About IS, can you tell me when is activated. This is one of many reason to include this tweak. Me and many user want to know what is used in encoding. In my some test with AAC encoding M/S encoding not have sense at very high rates 220> like LR in very low rates <128. That aslo valid for MP3

Quote
There is no need to allow modification I think, as there is much higher chance for non-experienced users to make settings that actually damage sound quality - and generate bad image for the complete technology when they listen to songs they made with "tweaked" codec (e.g. like with old MP3 encoders)
This is codec for Pro users Right, then if somebody not know how to use codec, so then exist default settings like now. I just wanna make this tweak like LC,HE,HEv2 switches.

And i almost forgot i see that in mp3 section, ReplyGain. Until now somebody told that ReplyGain and AAC can't be. Can you confirm that.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-05 23:46:46
Is there a way to specify MONO output from a dual-channel monaural file? For example, if an old album was recorded in mono, and I have the CD, ripping the CD will still produce a stereo *.wav.

Pesky, I know. Who listens to mono?  (I do.)

    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Teqnilogik on 2006-05-06 01:30:47
Great work!  I have tested out this encoder and it works like a charm!  Could use a few little things like a better help section and a progress bar during the encoding process but this is just simply awesome either way.  I've been waiting for something like this from Nero!  There is now a viable and easy way to convert your music collection to Nero AAC.  I can now use it easily with any ripper that supports command line encoders and the best part is it is free.

BTW, I'm not sure if I missed this in the above posts but how do you implement tagging with this encoder?  Any switches to do that?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sagittaire on 2006-05-06 02:32:28
I have little ac3 6ch 448 Kbps. I make these convertions:
file wav 6 chanels 6ch.wav
file wav 2 chanels 2ch.wav (default matrix 6ch->2ch conversion for BS)
six files wav FR.wav, FL.wav, C.wav, LFE.wav, SR.wav and SL.wav

1) Convertion with neroAacEnc.exe
I use this command line for all wav file
neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.3 -lc -if input.wav -of output.mp4

and I find these size for each mp4 files
2ch done 2497 Ko and 114 Kbps
6h done 8764 Ko
FL done 1574 Ko
FR done 1569 Ko
C done 1567 Ko
LFE done 725 Ko
SL done 1481 Ko
SR done 1533 Ko

well it's really curious:
- same quality level for individual chanel done less bitrate than 6ch conversion (8.32 Mo vs 8.55 Mo)
- for same quality level bitrate for 6ch and 2ch sould be simple scalling something like between x2.0-x2.5 ... here it's 3.5


2) Convertion with FAAC.exe
I use this command line for all wav file
faac.exe input.wav -o output.mp4 --tns -q 100

and I find these size for each mp4 files
2ch done 2552 Ko and 116 Kbps
6h done 6559 Ko
FL done 1212 Ko
FR done 1211 Ko
C done 844 Ko
LFE done 2497 Ko
SL done 1233 Ko
SR done 1240 Ko

well here it's normal:
- same quality level for individual chanel done more bitrate than 6ch conversion (7.00 Mo vs 6.40 Mo)
- for same quality level bitrate for 6ch and 2ch sould be simple scaling something like between x2.0-x2.5 ... here it's 2.57

If quality level is the same for each encoding (1.0, 2.0, 5.1 ... etc) then bitrate for q 0.3 6ch file should be in 5000-6500 Ko interval. Chanel coupling seem work for 2.0 but not for 5.1. Bug for multichanel or different quality level ... ???


Well I try with the old nero aac version (aac.dll and aacenc32.dll) and I find that:

profil LC with quality "internet"

for quality "high" size scalling is x2.62
2ch done 2860 Ko
6ch done 7518 Ko

for quality "fast" size scalling is x3.32
2ch done 2713 Ko
6ch done 9022 Ko

for quality "high + pns" size scalling is x2.28
2ch done 2121 Ko
6ch done 4405 Ko

for quality "fast + pns" size scalling is x2.80
2ch done 1727 Ko
6ch done 4842 Ko

Perhaps an old bug for the "fast" preset ... I don't know. 5.1 Chanel coupling seem not work only in "fast" mode but perhaps simply that these quality mode are not equivalent ... ???
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: William on 2006-05-06 07:47:37
Excellent work, thank you very much.

The time matches perfectly as I just bought my Samsung D608. I can put a lot of MP4 music into it. Thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LaserSokrates on 2006-05-06 08:07:13
@ M: If you use foobar, you can use the "Downmix Channels to Mono" DSP when converting. I have no idea if this is possible in EAC. But since this encoder uses joint-stereo (at least I'm quite sure it does), the gain in filesize will be rather small. Nevertheless, it's a mono-track, so I think it should be encoded mono.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-06 08:27:55
You think Nero automaticly downsample 88->44khz. Why, i newer have bad things with CT encodings and devices


But there is no point to it (encoding at 88.2kHz) and it seems to bring lower quality.


Quote
Thas is good reason, but i not say that for example 192kbsSBR is better than 192NONSBR. Did someone do tests with SBR @ higer rates comparing to LC


Yes, of course. SBR starts being pointless at about 85-90kbps.

Quote
In my some test with AAC encoding M/S encoding not have sense at very high rates 220> like LR in very low rates <128. That aslo valid for MP3


I am sorry but this is complete bullshit. AAC's stereo system is not comparable to MP3, it makes no point to say that AAC is using M/S or L/R because it will consistently use both modes at the same time! And there's definitely an advantage in it even at extremely high bitrates.

Quote
This is codec for Pro users Right, then if somebody not know how to use codec, so then exist default settings like now. I just wanna make this tweak like LC,HE,HEv2 switches.


Yeah, and now people are trying 2 pass VBR and 192kbps stereo HE-AAC. Uhm, I think even "pro users" can do amazingly silly things.

Quote
And i almost forgot i see that in mp3 section, ReplyGain. Until now somebody told that ReplyGain and AAC can't be. Can you confirm that.


Whoever told you that had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. Nero Digital supports ReplayGain, and for example foobar2000 also does.



Is there a way to specify MONO output from a dual-channel monaural file? For example, if an old album was recorded in mono, and I have the CD, ripping the CD will still produce a stereo *.wav.

Pesky, I know. Who listens to mono?  (I do.)

    - M.


I'd recommend downmixing beforehand. But encoding it as stereo is fine too, because the encoder can and will figure out that it is really mono and encode it quite efficiently.


BTW, I'm not sure if I missed this in the above posts but how do you implement tagging with this encoder?  Any switches to do that?


You will need to tag from an external application (for now).  Switches will be added at a later time.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: tycho on 2006-05-06 10:54:45
REACT v1.0 (just released) has support for this encoder.

It includes the encoder and a tagger app.
Three configs are available: MP4 (mp4 tracks), WV_MP4 (Wavpack image or tracks + mp4 tracks).

The WV_MP4-image.txt config is particular advanced, which creates a tagged Wavpack image, and then tagged mp4 tracks from the ripped image.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=36261 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36261)

Enjoy.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-06 11:42:34
Quote
But there is no point to it (encoding at 88.2kHz) and it seems to bring lower quality.
OK but if me show some tests to prove me.

Quote
Yes, of course. SBR starts being pointless at about 85-90kbps.
What about IS (Intesivity Stereo), i think that for example 96kbs sounds beter with LC and IS, from some earlier Ivan's tests.

Quote
]I am sorry but this is complete bullshit. AAC's stereo system is not comparable to MP3, it makes no point to say that AAC is using M/S or L/R because it will consistently use both modes at the same time! And there's definitely an advantage in it even at extremely high bitrates.
You sorry me but for me is bigest important thing. I know what is answer can be and you devs always find some stupid reason. Leave MP3 and his old technology alone. I don't have problems with M/S AAC at all but M/S can disturb quality especialy in high bitrates and very silent songs. Me and many other ppl know that using M/S on very high rates only disturb quality, like L/R on very low rates. AAC tecnology is more smarter and knows what doing where to put M/S where L/R, but M/S is M/S, not always good.

Quote
]Whoever told you that had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. Nero Digital supports ReplayGain, and for example foobar2000 also does.
I think about ReplyGain like MP3

Quote
]Yeah, and now people are trying 2 pass VBR and 192kbps stereo HE-AAC. Uhm, I think even "pro users" can do amazingly silly things.
That is you mistake, you should put some info in readme, And i am i ppl area who tested VBR and 2-pass because this have sense.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: SirGrey on 2006-05-06 11:55:29
>>What about IS (Intesivity Stereo), i think that for example 96kbs sounds beter with LC and IS, from
>>some earlier Ivan's tests.
It seems that you simply do not understand what are you talking about. 

>>Me and many other ppl know that using M/S on very high rates only disturb quality
Prove it. You are welcome to post ABX test results for any aac encoder you wish.

>>That is you mistake, you should put some info in readme, And i am i ppl area who tested VBR and 2-pass
>>because this have sense.
This have NO sense at all.
NOTE: The special keys are for professionals.
If you do not understand, what is vbr and what is two pass, simply do not use them.
EDIT: to help you not to make such a mistake in the future: what is  vbr, cbr and abr (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=30553&view=findpost&p=264475)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Squeller on 2006-05-06 12:43:25
1. Where will you keep us informed on encoder updates? Here on validated news page? AAC forum?
2. I'm not into aac: Whats supposed to be the correct file extension? mp4 or m4a?
3. Will you support tagging via command line? (useful for eac)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Serge Smirnoff on 2006-05-06 13:38:19
I would recommend:

- Nero ABR (-br 128000)
- Nero 2-Pass (-br 128000 -2pass)
- Nero Quality VBR (-q 0.425)

I tried the latest neroAacEnc.exe with SE test files and got:
- Nero ABR (-br 128000)         => 130.7 kbit/s
- Nero 2-Pass (-br 128000 -2pass)  => 138.8 kbit/s
- Nero Quality VBR (-q 0.462)         => 128.0 kbit/s

Confused a little bit with 2-pass bitrate. Could someone clear up?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: IgorC on 2006-05-06 15:33:10
In  Nero AAC Recommended Settings topic Garf said that 2 pass is no sense  with VBR.
Ivan said that 2 pass VBR can be usefull for long samples with speech, music etc. ( i.e. soundtracks)
?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sagittaire on 2006-05-06 16:27:07
In  Nero AAC Recommended Settings topic Garf said that 2 pass is no sense  with VBR.
Ivan said that 2 pass VBR can be usefull for long samples with speech, music etc. ( i.e. soundtracks)
?


VBR mode here is q mode. Garf want certainely say that -q X -2pass is no sense simply because -br X -2pass is already a VBR mode.
Ivan say that -br X -2pass is very good for very long source like movie simply because you use VBR with very variable complexity source with good target bitrate.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: halb27 on 2006-05-06 16:27:27
Very good encoder, wonderful gift, thank you very much, Nero devs.

I tried it on my 'standard problem samples' harp40_1, trumpet, and herding_calls.

-q 0.425 is enough to bring me to my not-at-all-annoying level.
Going lower qualitywise I tried -q 0.4, -q 0.37, and -q 0.31. Quality scales very well with these bad samples, and even -q 0.31 is quite acceptable.

If I will ever encode for my mobile phone again I guess I will use this encoder and a quality level of -q 0.37 or similar. As for this application I also tried -br 96000 -2pass and was a bit disappointed. Quality was pretty poor.
So it's very advisable to use the -q mode. It was aware of the samples being problematic and chose an average bitrate quite high compared to what is usually expected with these quality levels.

Excellent work, thanks again.

If I were allowed a wish and if it's not much work I'd welcome very much the possibility of outputting a raw aac file which I need for my mobile phone (Nokia 6230).
As for now I have to use mp4box, and I didn't manage to integrate it into foobar, and the foobar plugin I used with 0.8.3 for this purpose isn't available any more (at least I didn't find it).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: anaxamander on 2006-05-06 16:47:00
BTW, I'm not sure if I missed this in the above posts but how do you implement tagging with this encoder?

Tagging *seems* to be handled through libmp4v2 - part of mpeg4ip. But then supplemental non-compliant information is appended. You can't call them atoms/boxes because they non-conforming to the ISO specification. It seems like the supplemental info was added to accommodate foobar2000 0.9.x similarly non-conforming (and redundant) tagging scheme.

From what I remember, these files won't stream, and the iPod Shuffle won't be able to play them either.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: tycho on 2006-05-06 18:49:10
If you use EAC, REACT v1.0 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=35158) will automatically tag the output files using AtomicParsley (http://atomicparsley.sourceforge.net). There are configurations for either just creating MP4 track files, or creating additional Wavpack image or tracks in one go (WV_MP4 config).

The files play nicely with Winamp, and the tags shows up fine.

Note that AtomicParsley v0.8.0 win32 executable is included with REACT, as the latest v0.8.4 is buggy.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: The Sheep of DEATH on 2006-05-06 19:25:41
First of all, thanks for this awesome encoder, Nero! 

I've encoded a few files via the LC VBR profile at q 0.15 (for my PocketPC device), and I admit I'm shocked and amazed at the quality it delivers.  However, at q 0.14, the lowpass apparently drops sharply, and much to my chagrin, much of the audio's high frequency signal is cut off. 

Is there a way for the (advanced) user to manually set the codec's lowpass frequency?  I think this would help tremendously in the AAC-LC low-bitrate area for those of us who cannot play AAC-HE on any hardware or mobile devices.  Thanks!

PS: I'm glad to finally be a part of the Hydrogenaudio community!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Deep_Elem on 2006-05-06 20:30:59
If a command-line version and/or a small-footprint GUI are available instead, I am more likely to make extensive use of the encoder. Either way I'm looking forward to experimenting with it.


Try Speek's BatchEnc:  http://members.home.nl/w.speek/batchenc.htm (http://members.home.nl/w.speek/batchenc.htm)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Apesbrain on 2006-05-06 20:55:49
If you use EAC, tags can be made with TG.EXE (http://users.rcn.com/rpritz/tgutf.zip)

Program: c:\windows\system32\cmd.exe

Additional command line options: /c c:\<path>\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.6 -if %s -of %d && c:\<path>\tg.exe %d --artist "%a" --album "%g" --track "%n" --title "%t" --genre "%m" --year "%y"

Seems to work ok.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-06 21:11:55
Ivan or Garf:

Whenever the encoder is updated, will you let us know here? Or will we be able to just check the site (@ Nero) for it to tell us that an updated version has been posted?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: menno on 2006-05-06 21:31:56
However, at q 0.14, the lowpass apparently drops sharply, and much to my chagrin, much of the audio's high frequency signal is cut off.


Are you sure the encoder didn't switch to HE AAC? Try forcing LC AAC with one of the options. -lc I think
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-06 21:59:12
Quote
Are you sure the encoder didn't switch to HE AAC? Try forcing LC AAC with one of the options. -lc I think
No it's not, he uses LC, did he use HE profile not will get cut off high frequncy, downsample to the 22khz or lower.

Low pass frequency sound like good option, like various stereo modes, and every pro thing.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: SNap on 2006-05-06 22:04:35
Great encoder... very good work.
I have a question though. I saw some posts earlier that the NeroAacEnc.exe checks if the system has support for SSE SSE2 and SSE3... and uses the ones that are available ... does NeroAacEnc_sse2.exe do the same thing? (refering to SSE3 support) ...

If my system supports SSE3 instructions will the encoder make use of this? And if so... witch executable?.. the nonSSE or the other?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: menno on 2006-05-06 22:05:41
Quote
Are you sure the encoder didn't switch to HE AAC? Try forcing LC AAC with one of the options. -lc I think
No it's not, he uses LC, did he use HE profile not will get cut off high frequncy, downsample to the 22khz or lower.


I don't fully understand what you are saying, but if you decode HE AAC with a LC AAC decoder you will indeed get a 22kHz file, which has the same effect as lowpass at 11kHz.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-06 22:43:11

Quote
Are you sure the encoder didn't switch to HE AAC? Try forcing LC AAC with one of the options. -lc I think
No it's not, he uses LC, did he use HE profile not will get cut off high frequncy, downsample to the 22khz or lower.


I don't fully understand what you are saying, but if you decode HE AAC with a LC AAC decoder you will indeed get a 22kHz file, which has the same effect as lowpass at 11kHz.
When you use LC and lower bitrates lower than 96kbs you get downsample like 32,22khz and other, but with lowpass switch you can stay to 44khz but with artifacts. with 22khz you get a big cut off of high frequencyies.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: arman68 on 2006-05-06 23:14:28
I've encoded a few files via the LC VBR profile at q 0.15 (for my PocketPC device), and I admit I'm shocked and amazed at the quality it delivers.  However, at q 0.14, the lowpass apparently drops sharply, and much to my chagrin, much of the audio's high frequency signal is cut off.


I have experimenting at low bitrates in LC profiles as well, comparing with iTunes 64kbps. Interestingly, what I found is I could almost always ABX the -q based VBR vs both iTunes and -2pass vbr, but not the others. The observation being that for the same (low) bitrate, -q always sounded much worse, with some rather nasty warbling artifacts.

I have settled on -lc -br 64000 -2pass

To be honest, I cannot ABX between this setting and iTunes 64kbps, but 2 pass vbr has got to be better ;-) and I am glad to get rid of iTunes.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-07 00:10:53
If a command-line version and/or a small-footprint GUI are available instead, I am more likely to make extensive use of the encoder. Either way I'm looking forward to experimenting with it.


Try Speek's BatchEnc:  http://members.home.nl/w.speek/batchenc.htm (http://members.home.nl/w.speek/batchenc.htm)

  Been using that one for ages... I've even recommended it to others asking similar questions on HA. And yes, it works fine with this encoder as well, but what I had in mind was something more along the lines of "Ivan & Menno" (Speek's older, dedicated frontend for Psytel and FAAD). Something that would give an end-user easy access to relevant options, without said user having to suss out the proper command-line syntax.

Nothing wrong with proper command-line syntax, of course! But while I'm thoroughly comfortable with BatchEnc, if I want to turn a novice friend on to this encoder it would be nice if there was also a novice-friendly way to learn about it.

    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: The Sheep of DEATH on 2006-05-07 00:56:26


Quote
Are you sure the encoder didn't switch to HE AAC? Try forcing LC AAC with one of the options. -lc I think
No it's not, he uses LC, did he use HE profile not will get cut off high frequncy, downsample to the 22khz or lower.


I don't fully understand what you are saying, but if you decode HE AAC with a LC AAC decoder you will indeed get a 22kHz file, which has the same effect as lowpass at 11kHz.
When you use LC and lower bitrates lower than 96kbs you get downsample like 32,22khz and other, but with lowpass switch you can stay to 44khz but with artifacts. with 22khz you get a big cut off of high frequencyies.


I did in fact use the -lc switch, and I can assure everyone that my encoded files are indeed reported as 44.1khz.  It is the codec's lowpass I am referring to in my above post.  The reason lowpass exists is to mask encoding artifacts which would inevitably be present in the audio's high spectrum when the bitrate falls too low for the encoder to otherwise conceal them.  The Nero LC encoder, for instance, produces very few annoying "artifacts" even at -lc -q 0.1 but with a much higher lowpass frequency, so the resulting file would have very little high-frequency preservation and thus sound "dull," "flat," or "garbled."  In my case, however, I find Nero's current lowpass too aggressive for my music, and I'd like to be able to "tell the encoder so" by manually specifying a higher lowpass frequency. 

To demonstrate what I mean, try the following test. 
With an audio file containing many audible high-frequency components, perform an encode at -lc -q 0.15 and another at -lc -q 0.14.  The difference: though only a tiny bit smaller, the q 0.14 encode will sound drastically flatter because the high-frequency components are drastically reduced compared to the q 0.15 encode.  In conclusion, the high-end will be effectively eliminated due to the codec's lower lowpass frequency at q 0.14. 

Let me reiterate that this is not a subjective statement of quality, but rather an objective statement regarding the frequency range of the resulting file, which is drastically and perhaps unpleasantly reduced when encoding below q 0.15. 

My initial question was whether or not an option exists with which the user can tweak or otherwise adjust the lowpass filter, which I believe to be overly aggressive for my content.
Cheers! 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: OJ_829 on 2006-05-07 04:54:51
First of all, thanks for this incredible release -- I registered with Hydrogenaudio just to say that.

Question:

I'm a registered/paid user of both Nero versions 6 and 7 but I have been unable to upgrade to Nero7 because I rely on dBPoweramp's Nero encoder for all my transcoding (typically, downloaded FLACs --> Nero AAC for my iPod), and dBPowerAmp's encoder module is incompatible with Nero 7: apparently this use causes Nero 7 to detect the use as trial-basis, even if you have the full product installed, and this is a known problem. So I have continued to encode with "only" Nero 6 installed. (Codec version: aacenc32.dll version 3.2.0.24)

I got your new command-line encoder to work with Fb2k, thanks to the tips on this board (yay!), but I was unable to get it to work with dBPowerAmp's command-line module. The Ahead CLI encoder barfed, claiming  that it wasn't getting proper WAV files, so I guess that the dBPowerAmp FLAC decoder doesn't result in the files spending any time as true WAV. :(

However, I don't encode very aggressively. Usually, I encode from FLAC to Nero AAC at 224kbps. So my main question is: should I sweat trying to get the newest encoder to work in my lifestyle? Is there a significant improvement at bitrates such as 224kbps which should convince me to leave v3.2.0.24 behind for the new, free encoder? And if so, the question I guess goes out to the board at large as to whether anyone has gotten this encoder to work in the dBPowerAmp world for FLAC input.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Creature on 2006-05-07 07:19:07
Nothing wrong with proper command-line syntax, of course! But while I'm thoroughly comfortable with BatchEnc, if I want to turn a novice friend on to this encoder it would be nice if there was also a novice-friendly way to learn about it.

    - M.

Very soon I will release english version MPWGUI 2.1, it's extremly simple & user-firendly GUI supported:
decode: aac/mp3/ogg/wav/ac3/dts/aif/flac/mpa/mp2/mpc/wma/wv/ape... maybe I forgot something   
encode: ape/aac(LC/HE/HC/LTP - iTunes/NeroAAC/FAAC)/flac/mp3/mpc/AoTuV OGG/wav/wv(only lossless mode)
Current russian version (2.0) available at http://dsrt.boom.ru (http://dsrt.boom.ru)
First english version will be available at http://dsrt.boom.ru/down-eng.htm (http://dsrt.boom.ru/down-eng.htm)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Squeller on 2006-05-07 07:32:05
If you use EAC, tags can be made with TG.EXE (http://users.rcn.com/rpritz/tgutf.zip)
I'll try it, thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LaserSokrates on 2006-05-07 08:28:18
@ Apesbrain: Works like a charm, thank you very much. So simple, and I tried and failed with mareo...
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: krmathis on 2006-05-07 08:55:22
You mentioned a linux version was in the works, does this mean an OS X version would be possible as well?
Code is itself cross-platform so everything is possible - but it needs time, right?

Since a GNU/Linux version is in the works, a simply recompile should make it available for Mac OS X as well...
/me wait for the Mac OS X version.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-07 11:14:01
I can only say, YES, we commited ourselves to full cross-platform support.

We are working very hard on getting the Linux version out and provide our valued Linux users with first-in-the-world native AAC highest-quality encoding support.

I will look into supporting other proposed platforms as soon as Linux is deployed.

I also wish to thank you all for such a huge support for this move - I really hope also this will also make our technology higher-quality with help from everyone here.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-07 13:12:56
Great encoder... very good work.
I have a question though. I saw some posts earlier that the NeroAacEnc.exe checks if the system has support for SSE SSE2 and SSE3... and uses the ones that are available ... does NeroAacEnc_sse2.exe do the same thing? (refering to SSE3 support) ...

If my system supports SSE3 instructions will the encoder make use of this? And if so... witch executable?.. the nonSSE or the other?


They both do it. SSE2 just requires at least SSE2 to run, but is a bit faster.


I've encoded a few files via the LC VBR profile at q 0.15 (for my PocketPC device), and I admit I'm shocked and amazed at the quality it delivers.  However, at q 0.14, the lowpass apparently drops sharply, and much to my chagrin, much of the audio's high frequency signal is cut off.


I have experimenting at low bitrates in LC profiles as well, comparing with iTunes 64kbps. Interestingly, what I found is I could almost always ABX the -q based VBR vs both iTunes and -2pass vbr, but not the others. The observation being that for the same (low) bitrate, -q always sounded much worse, with some rather nasty warbling artifacts.


Got a sample or something where this is obvious? I'd like to investigate.


My initial question was whether or not an option exists with which the user can tweak or otherwise adjust the lowpass filter, which I believe to be overly aggressive for my content.
Cheers! 


I much prefer the correct solution and that is for us to do more tuning to find the optimal lowpass settings, and perhaps add some more intervals than the current, apparently too abrupt, switch. Low bitrate LC AAC is currently suboptimal, because we strongly recommend to use HE-AAC or HE-AACv2 at those bitrate, so LC AAC didn't have as much tuning in that area. But it is certainly something that can and will be improved.

Ivan or Garf:

Whenever the encoder is updated, will you let us know here? Or will we be able to just check the site (@ Nero) for it to tell us that an updated version has been posted?


I'll certainly give a note here...


Is there a significant improvement at bitrates such as 224kbps which should convince me to leave v3.2.0.24 behind for the new, free encoder?


I would be amazed if the old encoder managed to cause an audible artifact at such a high bitrate, so we could keep massively improving it for 10 years and you'd never hear the improvement. However, if you're encoding at such a high rate, you are perhaps interested in inaudible improvements and then there might indeed be some improvements you'll never hear 


You mentioned a linux version was in the works, does this mean an OS X version would be possible as well?
Code is itself cross-platform so everything is possible - but it needs time, right? 

Since a GNU/Linux version is in the works, a simply recompile should make it available for Mac OS X as well...
/me wait for the Mac OS X version. 


...I don't think so. I saw some people on heise.de commenting that since the encoder is commandline, compiling a Linux version is just a matter of recompiling.

I'm afraid NOT  Please don't expect this too soon.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-07 15:08:37
how do i enable PNS mode?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ilikedirtthe2nd on 2006-05-07 19:03:22
I found the Encoder to be a little faster in SBR mode than in LC and even faster (twice as fast as LC) in SBR+PS  mode. Just interested, what's the explanation for that?

Regards; ilikedirt
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-07 19:06:07
I found the Encoder to be a little faster in SBR mode than in LC and even faster (twice as fast as LC) in SBR+PS  mode. Just interested, what's the explanation for that?

Regards; ilikedirt


SBR mode: encoder LC core (and most psychoacoustics) runs at half the sampling rate (22kHz), so it has half as much data to process.
SBR+PS: as above, but not it's mono, too, which means another halving.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-07 19:10:00
garf? how do i enable PNS?

the lowpassing in LC is horribly low.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: The Sheep of DEATH on 2006-05-07 19:15:00
how do i enable PNS mode?
the lowpassing in LC is horribly low.

My thoughts exactly.  Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately for encoding newbies/novices), these advanced options are decided upon automatically by the encoder and remain hidden from the user.

Therefore, I'd like to suggest an "advanced settings" group of options in which the advanced user can modify settings according to individual preferences, source type, or for testing purposes.  Oggenc, for instance, has advanced features available for use via the "--advanced-encode-option" set, in which the advanced user can configure various high-level options such as impulse trigger and lowpass; the result of which being that I have tweaked these options according to what yielded the best average personal ABX result.  This is based on the principle that a single lowpass doesn't necessarily apply well to all types of audio (or, to a lesser degree, to each listener's personal preference)--it is generally accepted, for instance, that heavy rock music in vorbis (AoTUV) requires a lower lowpass than, for instance, light pop.  An advanced settings category like that present in vorbis (perhaps separately documented to keep newbies away) would potentially prove very useful for advanced users, myself among them.  (Not to brag ).

One more quick question: will this encoder be updated at fixed intervals (as it was in the past), or will it generally go through updates (and reuploads) as soon as improvements are made?  Judging by the responses in this thread and the fact that it was changed already in only a few days, I'm strongly inclined to believe the latter, but I just wanted to be clear on this.

Again, thanks for the free encoder and I wish you the best of luck in upcoming improvements!
DeathTheSheep
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-07 19:28:32
I'd like to congrats Ivan and the Nero Digital team (I already did it by mail), but I must say that I'm truly shocked by this announcement:

* Crystal Clear, Award Winning Sound Quality at every compression ratio and bit rate!


If I understand correctly, this encoder:
1/ is crystal clear at every bitrate. Did someone listened to 16 kbps encodings and confirmed the clarity? IIRC, the latest 48 kbps explicitely shows that 48 kbps (thus lower bitrate) encodings are very far from "crystal clarity".
2/ is Award Winning at every bitrate. Could someone give me links to these awards? The only "award" competition I know is the 48 kbps, and this test ended with no winner at all.

I recall that the board's Term of Service are very explicit on the following point:
8. All members that put forth a statement concerning subjective sound quality, must -- to the best of their ability -- provide objective support for their claims.

May I insist and ask for a link pointing to this full bitrate range award in order to back up the initial claims?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-07 19:47:40
Hmmm, I do agree it doesn't make any sense though. I've removed that claim. Ivan can ask marketing for their sources and put it back if they reply 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-07 19:59:45
Thank you Garf 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: IgorC on 2006-05-07 20:53:27
Thank you Garf 


You did it.  I gave back my claims  from doom9 forum. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: richard123 on 2006-05-07 21:13:55
I have settled on -lc -br 64000 -2pass

To be honest, I cannot ABX between this setting and iTunes 64kbps, but 2 pass vbr has got to be better ;-) and I am glad to get rid of iTunes.
I have not been able to ABX nero against iTunes using iTunes 128k VBR and q settings around 0.43 (or whatever it takes to get a similar bitrate to iTunes).  I'm wondering if others can?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-07 21:57:24
In case anyone's interested in getting this all set up in Linux, here's a script I use to encode, tag, then replaygain:

Code: [Select]
#!/bin/bash

wine /home/phil/bin/neroAacEnc.exe -q .425 -if "$1" -of "$2"
atomicparsley "$2" -W --artist "$3" --album "$4" --title "$5" --tracknum "$6" --year "$7"
aacgain -r -c "$2"


and here's the corrosponding setup string for KAudioCreator:

Code: [Select]
aacEncode %f %o %{albumartist} %{albumtitle} %{title} %{number} %{$year}
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-07 21:58:46
I have settled on -lc -br 64000 -2pass

To be honest, I cannot ABX between this setting and iTunes 64kbps, but 2 pass vbr has got to be better ;-) and I am glad to get rid of iTunes.
I have not been able to ABX nero against iTunes using iTunes 128k VBR and q settings around 0.43 (or whatever it takes to get a similar bitrate to iTunes).  I'm wondering if others can?
I just tried on harpsichord and succeed

[!--sizeo:5--][span style=\"font-size:18pt;line-height:100%\"][!--/sizeo--]TEST#1[/size]
Code: [Select]
ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.52b, 07 mai 2006
Testname:

Tester: guruboolez

1L = C:\MP3\NERO\S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.m4a
2R = C:\MP3\NERO\S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.mp4

Ratings on a scale from 1.0 to 5.0

---------------------------------------
General Comments:
---------------------------------------
1L File: C:\MP3\NERO\S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.m4a
1L Rating: 4.5
1L Comment: not fully transparent: harpsichord is slightly distorted
---------------------------------------
2R File: C:\MP3\NERO\S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.mp4
2R Rating: 2.5
2R Comment: "tremolos" and smeared
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:
C:\MP3\NERO\S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.m4a vs C:\MP3\NERO\S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.mp4
    11 out of 12, pval = 0.0030


---- Detailed ABX results ----
C:\MP3\NERO\S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.m4a vs C:\MP3\NERO\S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.mp4
Playback Range: 00.000 to 11.255
    10:34:19 PM p 1/1 pval = 0.5
    10:34:22 PM p 2/2 pval = 0.25
    10:34:30 PM f 2/3 pval = 0.5
    10:34:33 PM p 3/4 pval = 0.312
    10:34:35 PM p 4/5 pval = 0.187
    10:34:38 PM p 5/6 pval = 0.109
    10:34:40 PM p 6/7 pval = 0.062
    10:34:44 PM p 7/8 pval = 0.035
    10:34:46 PM p 8/9 pval = 0.019
    10:34:50 PM p 9/10 pval = 0.01
    10:34:53 PM p 10/11 pval = 0.0050
    10:34:56 PM p 11/12 pval = 0.0030


>> original sample << (http://gurusamples.free.fr/samples/S16_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_F.wv)
Nero -q 0.435 bitrate = 118 kbps [.MP4 file]
iTunes VBR 128 bitrate = 128 kbps [.M4A file]

=> difference was really obvious to my ears. But I'm tempted to say that I'm very sensitive with harpsichord sound (I often claimed to hear strong distortions that other people couldn't clearly hear) so try yourself.
Bitrate is also significantly lower. That's why I tried with a second harpsichord sample (test#2).


[!--sizeo:5--][span style=\"font-size:18pt;line-height:100%\"][!--/sizeo--]TEST#2[/size]
Code: [Select]
ABC/HR for Java, Version 0.52b, 07 mai 2006
Testname:

Tester: guruboolez

1L = C:\MP3\NERO\S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.m4a
2L = C:\MP3\NERO\S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.mp4

Ratings on a scale from 1.0 to 5.0

---------------------------------------
General Comments: ABX: first ~8 trials on beginning; last ~12 trials on the second part (pre-echo/smearing was easier to catch)
---------------------------------------
1L File: C:\MP3\NERO\S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.m4a
1L Rating: 3.5
1L Comment: distorted and smeared
---------------------------------------
2L File: C:\MP3\NERO\S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.mp4
2L Rating: 2.8
2L Comment: both distortions and smearing are more irritating this time
---------------------------------------

ABX Results:
C:\MP3\NERO\S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.m4a vs C:\MP3\NERO\S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.mp4
    16 out of 20, pval = 0.0050


---- Detailed ABX results ----
C:\MP3\NERO\S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.m4a vs C:\MP3\NERO\S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.mp4
Playback Range: 00.000 to 08.410
    10:42:14 PM f 0/1 pval = 1.0
    10:42:21 PM p 1/2 pval = 0.75
    10:42:31 PM p 2/3 pval = 0.5
    10:43:09 PM f 2/4 pval = 0.687
    10:43:13 PM f 2/5 pval = 0.812
    10:43:22 PM f 2/6 pval = 0.89
Playback Range: 05.681 to 08.410
    10:43:45 PM p 3/7 pval = 0.773
    10:43:48 PM p 4/8 pval = 0.636
    10:43:52 PM p 5/9 pval = 0.5
    10:43:56 PM p 6/10 pval = 0.376
    10:43:59 PM p 7/11 pval = 0.274
    10:44:03 PM p 8/12 pval = 0.193
    10:44:06 PM p 9/13 pval = 0.133
    10:44:14 PM p 10/14 pval = 0.089
    10:44:18 PM p 11/15 pval = 0.059
    10:44:22 PM p 12/16 pval = 0.038
    10:44:26 PM p 13/17 pval = 0.024
    10:44:30 PM p 14/18 pval = 0.015
    10:44:34 PM p 15/19 pval = 0.0090
    10:44:37 PM p 16/20 pval = 0.0050


>> original sample << (http://gurusamples.free.fr/samples/S11_KEYBOARD_Harpsichord_A.wv)
Nero -q 0.435 bitrate = 131 kbps [.MP4 file]
iTunes VBR 128 bitrate = 129 kbps [.M4A file]

Distortions was a bit harder to catch. ABX test was clearly better when I focused on the pre-echo issue (second half of the sample). This time, the bitrate discrepancy can't be invoked to explain the difference.


But it's just and only harpsichord. I noticed this issue when Nero 7.2 was released (see the corresponding thread) while listening to 150 samples; for most of them quality was fine (or close to be so: extensive tests would be required for confirmation but I don't have time for them). Harpsichord is often problematic (and clearly not representative of the whole quality of an encoder; and of course not really a concern for people that don't listen to 17th and 18th century music) with lossy encoders with rare exceptions.


EDIT: offset & gain were corrected
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: arman68 on 2006-05-07 23:11:38

To be honest, I cannot ABX between this setting and iTunes 64kbps, but 2 pass vbr has got to be better ;-) and I am glad to get rid of iTunes.
I have not been able to ABX nero against iTunes using iTunes 128k VBR and q settings around 0.43 (or whatever it takes to get a similar bitrate to iTunes).  I'm wondering if others can?

I just tried on harpsichord and succeed


Thanks for lending us your ears 

I tried on a random selection of tracks, and a few problem samples of my own, which I could ABX with the previous versions of the encoder. Nice to know what to look for; I'll try to find a few tracks wiht harpsichord in my collection.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-07 23:15:53
If you use EAC, tags can be made with TG.EXE (http://users.rcn.com/rpritz/tgutf.zip)

c:\<path>\tg.exe %d --artist "%a" --album "%g" --track "%n" --title "%t" --genre "%m" --year "%y"

Seems to work ok.

does anyone know why it errorlevels 1 if OK?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-07 23:21:49
I just tried on harpsichord and succeed


Thanks for the initial test. I think it would be nice to have another test that included iTunes and Nero at around 128 since that last one didn't really count.

For the record, I hate Harpisords compressed or no. When an encoder screws up violins is when I'll cry foul.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-07 23:54:25
Was anyone able to tag the files with MPEG4ip's mp4tags.exe?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: IgorC on 2006-05-08 00:14:37
1st sample from previous Guru's post.

Nero -q 0.435  -  172 kbytes ( quite easy to spot)
Nero -q 0.435 -2pass - 204 kbytes
Itunes VBR 128 - 227 kbytes

Code: [Select]
ABC/HR Version 1.1 beta 2, 18 June 2004
Testname: 128 AAC multic

1L = C:\96\27_harpsichord\2 itunes vbr 128.wav
2L = C:\96\27_harpsichord\3 q0435_2pass.wav
3R = C:\96\27_harpsichord\1 q0435_1pass.wav

---------------------------------------
General Comments:

---------------------------------------
3R File: C:\96\27_harpsichord\1 q0435_1pass.wav
3R Rating: 4.1
3R Comment:
---------------------------------------
ABX Results:
Original vs C:\96\27_harpsichord\2 itunes vbr 128.wav
    1 out of 5, pval = 0.969
Original vs C:\96\27_harpsichord\3 q0435_2pass.wav
    4 out of 5, pval = 0.188
Original vs C:\96\27_harpsichord\1 q0435_1pass.wav
    5 out of 5, pval = 0.031


-q x (VBR) + 2pass can be usefull?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-08 00:49:57
VBR + 2 pass doesn't work (and doesn't make sense).
Anyway, testing 2-pass on short samples should be avoided in my opinion (the bitrate distribution is quite different from what it should be while encoding the complete track with the same encoding mode).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: IgorC on 2006-05-08 01:04:03
VBR + 2 pass doesn't work (and doesn't make sense).
Anyway, testing 2-pass on short samples should be avoided in my opinion (the bitrate distribution is quite different from what it should be while encoding the complete track with the same encoding mode).


If I understand you correctly. VBR+2 pass can have better bitrate  distribution on short sample but not on long ones (real life encoding 3-5 minutes). 

Maybe it would be better to check performance of VBR + 2 pass  on long samples. It is new encoder. Maybe something has chaged since  wma 2 pass.

Garf says that VBR+2pass hasn't sense but ......  it would be interesting and usefull to see (pre)abx test.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: vinnie97 on 2006-05-08 01:19:00
Excuse the newb-like question but I'm having trouble getting any 3rd party app to recognize this encoder (namely, Foobar and Dbpoweramp).  Inside of Foobar, under Tools --> Converter (after placing neroAacEnc.exe in the Foobar prog directory), the only encoder I'm given access to is the one that claims to require that Nero be installed.  I'm probably missing something obvious or missing a Foobar component (I'm using v0.9 and have an AMD AthlonXP Processor).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-08 01:22:33
If I understand you correctly. VBR+2 pass can have better bitrate  distribution on short sample but not on long ones (real life encoding 3-5 minutes).

No no no...
The short sample story has nothing to do with quality.
If you test a 10 sec long sample in two pass, the encoder would distribute the bitrate among 10 seconds only. In a "real life scenario", your ten seconds will be encoded very differently because the encoder would distribute th bitrate among 4 minutes (it's an example). In other words, the quality of a short part completely depends of the distribution of the whole file. That's why encoding a short musical moment as short sample instead as a short part of a bigger composition should lead to a different output, even if the input and the encoded setting are the same.
Example:
I built a bitrate curve of the V16 sample (the one you test) encoded with three settings [EDIT] and made a big mistake*. Example is therefore removed, and guruboolez is going to bed :/

* mistake for people who saw the graphs: I compared a sample-based VBR encoding to a track-based 2pass encoding instead of comparing both inputs at the same encoding mode.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-08 01:33:48
vinnie97> update to foobar2000 0.9.2 beta if you want to use the GUI (with slider and encoding mode selection) or add a new CUSTOM preset to foobar2000 with the following options:

Encoder: neroAACEnc.exe
Extension: MP4
Parameters: -ignorelength -cbr 128000 -if - -of %d

Format is: LOSSY
BPS...: 32
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: vinnie97 on 2006-05-08 06:36:23
Thank you again, Guru...forever indebted, etc.  The new version of Foobar revealed the GUI options and accepted the new encoder.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Creature on 2006-05-08 06:38:19
I'm just compared files generated by NeroAACEnc & NeroAACEnc_sse2 (Win2k & iP4 processor) at same settings (-cbr 192000) and the same source... after decode by NeroAACDec WAVs slightly different from each another... Difference about +-1
What encoder is better?... I'm understand what +-1 - is a ridiculous difference but...
...When I'm used FAAD for decode process difference rise to +-2... and iTunes decode leads to totally different WAV. 
What decoder I should use? 
...When I run NeroAACEnc & NeroAACEnc_sse2 under Win98SE... NeroAACEnc_sse2 ended at same result as NeroAACEnc_sse2 under W2k/WXP... but NeroAACEnc generated 3rd version different from NeroAACEnc_sse2 & NeroAACEnc under W2k... I'm think it is a math issue... little difference.. but this is a straight path to overflow... Or I'm little paranoid 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rbrito on 2006-05-08 09:31:04
In case anyone's interested in getting this all set up in Linux, here's a script I use to encode, tag, then replaygain:

Code: [Select]
#!/bin/bash

wine /home/phil/bin/neroAacEnc.exe -q .425 -if "$1" -of "$2"
atomicparsley "$2" -W --artist "$3" --album "$4" --title "$5" --tracknum "$6" --year "$7"
aacgain -r -c "$2"


Thanks. I was already using wine for this, but wine is way too slow for executing things, at least on my Duron computer (which is the fastest that I have at my disposal). I'm anxiously expecting the Linux binaries and I do hope that they work fine with Debian (http://www.debian.org/)'s testing (http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/) distribution.

BTW, I didn't know about atomicparsley (http://atomicparsley.sf.net/). I think that I will package it for Debian. A good thing, though, would be to use easytag (http://easytag.sf.net) to tag mp4/m4a files. All with native tools.


Regards, Rogério Brito.


Linux is actually on the way


Thank you very much for this piece of news. I am anxiously awaiting for this release.

Oh, BTW, regarding your initial post, you mentioned that

(...)
* Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!
(...)


Which command line options are available for this? I tried seeing the output of strings on the (non-SSE2) binary, but I couldn't guess how to enable that. Sorry if I am missing something obvious.


Thanks in advance, Rogério Brito.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sagittaire on 2006-05-08 10:51:42
Quote
If you test a 10 sec long sample in two pass, the encoder would distribute the bitrate among 10 seconds only. In a "real life scenario", your ten seconds will be encoded very differently because the encoder would distribute th bitrate among 4 minutes (it's an example). In other words, the quality of a short part completely depends of the distribution of the whole file. That's why encoding a short musical moment as short sample instead as a short part of a bigger composition should lead to a different output, even if the input and the encoded setting are the same.


1) Well be carefull with neroaacenc you can choose 2pass period (in fact buffer). bitrate will be always constant on this period. It's an "streaming scenario" and "real life scenario". Bitrate repartition will be between pure CBR RC mode and pure VBR quality RC mode.

2) if 2pass RC mode is good then work on 10 secondes sample is really not a problem.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-08 12:03:56
Quote
If you test a 10 sec long sample in two pass, the encoder would distribute the bitrate among 10 seconds only. In a "real life scenario", your ten seconds will be encoded very differently because the encoder would distribute th bitrate among 4 minutes (it's an example). In other words, the quality of a short part completely depends of the distribution of the whole file. That's why encoding a short musical moment as short sample instead as a short part of a bigger composition should lead to a different output, even if the input and the encoded setting are the same.


1) Well be carefull with neroaacenc you can choose 2pass period (in fact buffer). bitrate will be always constant on this period. It's an "streaming scenario" and "real life scenario". Bitrate repartition will be between pure CBR RC mode and pure VBR quality RC mode.

2) if 2pass RC mode is good then work on 10 secondes sample is really not a problem.


He's not saying it's a problem, he's saying encoding just the sample or encoding the sample as part of something else are two entirely different things (and he's right).


I'm just compared files generated by NeroAACEnc & NeroAACEnc_sse2 (Win2k & iP4 processor) at same settings (-cbr 192000) and the same source... after decode by NeroAACDec WAVs slightly different from each another... Difference about +-1
What encoder is better?... I'm understand what +-1 - is a ridiculous difference but...
...When I'm used FAAD for decode process difference rise to +-2... and iTunes decode leads to totally different WAV. 
What decoder I should use? 
...When I run NeroAACEnc & NeroAACEnc_sse2 under Win98SE... NeroAACEnc_sse2 ended at same result as NeroAACEnc_sse2 under W2k/WXP... but NeroAACEnc generated 3rd version different from NeroAACEnc_sse2 & NeroAACEnc under W2k... I'm think it is a math issue... little difference.. but this is a straight path to overflow... Or I'm little paranoid 


The +- 1 bit are simply rounding errors, which are expected.


As for iTunes leading to an entirely different WAV, that's probably because iTunes either:

VBR + 2 pass doesn't work (and doesn't make sense).
Anyway, testing 2-pass on short samples should be avoided in my opinion (the bitrate distribution is quite different from what it should be while encoding the complete track with the same encoding mode).


If I understand you correctly. VBR+2 pass can have better bitrate  distribution on short sample but not on long ones (real life encoding 3-5 minutes). 

Maybe it would be better to check performance of VBR + 2 pass  on long samples. It is new encoder. Maybe something has chaged since  wma 2 pass.

Garf says that VBR+2pass hasn't sense but ......  it would be interesting and usefull to see (pre)abx test.


No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, NO!

If you would run an 10000 pass encoding with VBR, the effect should be exactly the same as in the first pass.

The reason this is not happening is because this mode is not supposed to be used, I didn't anticipate anyone being silly enough to use it, and so the encoder is doing just random things when you try this. If you let it do random things on the samples where it performs worst at in normal mode, it might just by pure change produce a better result, but in general I would expect seriously degraded performance.

It might perpaps, purely hypothethically, be possible to get some advantage from 2 pass even in VBR, but his is just one silly idea I have to perhaps try and implement in the future, and nothing of this is implemented in the encoder at all.

So please, just remember, 2 pass is for ABR.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-08 12:15:04
1) Well be carefull with neroaacenc you can choose 2pass period (in fact buffer). bitrate will be always constant on this period.


The "constant" word is special is the AAC world
Anyway, I compared the bitrate curve of four different 2pass encodings:

128 kbps 2pass with a period of 2000 ms
128 kbps 2pass with a period of 10000 ms
128 kbps 2pass with a period of  30000 ms
128 kbps 2pass with a period of O ms (unrestricted)

Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: menno on 2006-05-08 12:22:18
As for iTunes leading to an entirely different WAV, that's probably because iTunes either:
  • Doesn't support HE-AAC
  • Doesn't support HE-AACv2
  • Doesn't support gapless decoding
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ilikedirtthe2nd on 2006-05-08 13:05:30
So please, just remember, 2 pass is for ABR.


Why don't you just disable 2pass in VBR Mode?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-08 13:13:41
Another graph.
This time I split each 2-pass encoding with YAMB (MP4Box) into shorter parts. The length of each part correspond to the 2-pass averaging period. I works pretty well (each small part in exactly cut at the right sample!).
There are:
- 77 segments of 2 seconds (input: -br 128000 -2pass -2passperiod 2000.mp4)
- 16 segments of 10 seconds (input: -br 128000 -2pass -2passperiod 10000.mp4)
- 6 segments of 30 seconds (input: -br 128000 -2pass -2passperiod 30000.mp4)

The last 10 sec & 30 sec segments are not present in the graph (they're too shorts because reference file is not a multiple of 10 and 30).


(http://gurusamples2.free.fr/ndaac/A5_2pass_bitrate_period.png)


As you can see, the bitrate of each 2-pass segment is by far not constant.

-2 seconds: MIN=122 kbps  MAX=153 kbps  AVG=130kbps
-10 seconds: MIN=125 kbps  MAX=179 kbps  AVG=130kbps
-30 seconds: MIN=127 kbps  MAX=149 kbps  AVG=119/137kbps [complete serie: 127-129-133-149-149-27: the series is too short, hence the inaccurate averaging]

It also illustrate why short samples shouldn't be used for listening evaluation of "2-pass mode". If you encode each segment separately, all of them should end at 128 kbps and the plots would be perfectly linear; if you extract them from a long encoding, the bitrate would vary as shown in the plot's variations. Here: the variation goes from 122 to 179 kbps... no need to say that it should affects the output quality.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-08 13:49:22

So please, just remember, 2 pass is for ABR.


Why don't you just disable 2pass in VBR Mode?


This has already been done and will be in the next update. [1]

[1] I'm wondering if we'll now get people who refuse to upgrade "because the new encoder doesn't support VBR 2pass".
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-08 16:20:35
I'm wondering if we'll now get people who refuse to upgrade "because the new encoder doesn't support VBR 2pass".

bet on it.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sagittaire on 2006-05-08 16:27:15
Another graph.
This time I split each 2-pass encoding with YAMB (MP4Box) into shorter parts. The length of each part correspond to the 2-pass averaging period. I works pretty well (each small part in exactly cut at the right sample!).
There are:
- 77 segments of 2 seconds (input: -br 128000 -2pass -2passperiod 2000.mp4)
- 16 segments of 10 seconds (input: -br 128000 -2pass -2passperiod 10000.mp4)
- 6 segments of 30 seconds (input: -br 128000 -2pass -2passperiod 30000.mp4)

The last 10 sec & 30 sec segments are not present in the graph (they're too shorts because reference file is not a multiple of 10 and 30).


(http://gurusamples2.free.fr/ndaac/A5_2pass_bitrate_period.png)


As you can see, the bitrate of each 2-pass segment is by far not constant.

-2 seconds: MIN=122 kbps  MAX=153 kbps  AVG=130kbps
-10 seconds: MIN=125 kbps  MAX=179 kbps  AVG=130kbps
-30 seconds: MIN=127 kbps  MAX=149 kbps  AVG=119/137kbps [complete serie: 127-129-133-149-149-27: the series is too short, hence the inaccurate averaging]


Really good work. Conclusion is 2passperiod don't work correcty or perhaps that we don't understand correctly 2passperiod fonction ... ???

Anyway in theory we can make streaming with simple CBR, CBR 2 pass (buffer) or with ABR 2 pass (vbv) and it's a "real life scenario". Make 2pass on short sample is not stupid way.


Quote
It also illustrate why short samples shouldn't be used for listening evaluation of "2-pass mode". If you encode each segment separately, all of them should end at 128 kbps and the plots would be perfectly linear; if you extract them from a long encoding, the bitrate would vary as shown in the plot's variations. Here: the variation goes from 122 to 179 kbps... no need to say that it should affects the output quality.


Well but you make exactly that when you compare CBR codec vs VBR codec with your short sample for subjective test ... ;-)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-08 16:55:32
Thanks. I was already using wine for this, but wine is way too slow for executing things, at least on my Duron computer (which is the fastest that I have at my disposal).


Is that just a gut feeling, or have you tested it? I notice no slowdown on my machine, and I wouldn't really expect any. Wine isn't a virtual machine or anything, it just grabs the Win32 calls and translates them to the Posix equivilents. I would think that with a command line encoder, the only OS calls would be to open the file at the begining and write the stream out as it's running: hardly anything to give Wine trouble.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-08 17:01:18
Really good work. Conclusion is 2passperiod don't work correcty or perhaps that we don't understand correctly 2passperiod fonction ... ??? ...

off topic, but, did you had to quote that much text, and the whole graph?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: The Sheep of DEATH on 2006-05-08 17:13:10
Quote
by Garf
I'm wondering if we'll now get people who refuse to upgrade "because the new encoder doesn't support VBR 2pass".

starkly contrasts with this:
This is not a product for novices, this is a product for people that know exactly what they want to accomplish.  Of course, our quality settings are optimized to give best quality for a given bit-rate / quality levels,  but it is up to the user to decide what size he wants, and what additional methods he would wish to use in the process (e.g. 2-pass, optimizing for streaming, etc...)


It seems these potential complaints would arise from the complete novices, and thus it would make no difference whether or not they upgrade, seeing as the usability of the codec for them is very low in the first place.  A piece of software is designed for an intended audience/userbase, and as Ivan stated, this particular CLI codec does not aim for a novice userbase. 
Also, in reference to my previous post requesting these promised "additional methods [the user] would wish to use in the process" be exposed; the removal of the 2-pass VBR option--despite 2-pass VBR being verifiably (and theoretically) quite useless--would undermine the control that the expert user has over the encoding process, a process in which the user is expected to know full well what he's doing and what to expect of the encoder. 
Making the encoder novice-friendly at the expense of the freedom of the "pro" user does little to fulfill the codec's aforementioned professional userbase. 

In fact, as of late, the encoder has become decidedly more novice-friendly and less open to expert configuration.  For instance, the PNS option has vanished.  It is now frowned upon to set even the AAC profile, the #1 determining factor in the resulting AAC's playback on external hardware/devices.  I'm not saying or even implying that this is "wrong" or "bad" in any way, though; I'm simply saying that the target audience now appears to be quite different than that which was initially stated.  I certainly wouldn't mind seeing that Vorbis-like "advanced options category" I suggested come to life
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-08 17:29:04
You are making things way too complicated. When we say "advanced users", we mean people who are able to use a commandline encoder, and don't need a shiny GUI, but can, for example, figure out how to encode with foobar2000. The kind of people who have been complaining so heavily for years here that they have to download the entire Nero suite just to get a 1M encoder.

The encoder internals are not meant to be tweakable from the outside for users, and if it depends on me, they will never be outside the sheer necessary things (like LC vs HE-AAC).

I don't trust 99% of the "advanced" users to use these settings correctly, and the past with lamelines and everything (and even this thread) clearly show that it is a bad idea to expose them.

<hat and cape on>
I'm in a position where I can steer history so we do not end up downloading a garbled 192kbps SBR+PS L/R stereo tune from an artists website, and I will take my responsibility to stop it from happening, at least with Nero AAC 
</hat and cape off>
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: [JAZ] on 2006-05-08 17:36:40
... the removal of the 2-pass VBR option--[...] --would undermine the control that the expert user has over the encoding process, a process in which the user is expected to know full well what he's doing and what to expect of the encoder.


Garf didn't say that he is going to disable a wrongly used setting. He is going to disable a setting that doesn't work in the first place.

So, if anyone considers himself a "pro", and uses a setting because he believes it does A(x), but does Random(x), it will either mean the setting is useless (even a random result wouldn't be noticeable) or that he will give bad comments about the encoder.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ardax on 2006-05-08 18:07:45
<hat and cape on>
I'm in a position where I can steer history so we do not end up downloading a garbled 192kbps SBR+PS L/R stereo tune from an artists website, and I will take my responsibility to stop it from happening, at least with Nero AAC 
</hat and cape off>

As well you should! 

Thanks for making such a great encoder available for free!  Time to go try it out.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-08 18:13:13
seriously though, PNS can only improve quality at lower bitrate LC-AAC, so why kill it, please enable a PNS setting, please?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: The Sheep of DEATH on 2006-05-08 18:52:00
Quote from:  link=msg=0 date=0
<hat and cape on>
I'm in a position where I can steer history so we do not end up downloading a garbled 192kbps SBR+PS L/R stereo tune from an artists website, and I will take my responsibility to stop it from happening, at least with Nero AAC smile.gif
</hat and cape off>

Very nice  Honestly, I couldn't agree more.

Well, my last few lines on the subject before people get their hopes up about awesome 999kbps q 1 SBR+PS L/R -9pass 400ghz 2-bit PCM aac audio :
The Vorbis encoder has seperately documented, nearly hidden commandlines which all start out like --advanced-encode-option X, which makes it very hard for a user to even find about the advanced options, but still available for Mr. Pro to enable his PNS and tweak the lowpass on his 64kbps LC-AAC files

But I gotta hand it to you-- you make a very good point, and the encoder's yours anyway, so...

PS: The underlined passage is not a link.  It's merely underlined.  Just to clear things up.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-08 19:00:47
The Vorbis encoder has seperately documented, nearly hidden commandlines which all start out like --advanced-encode-option X...


Boo for the fake link.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: The Sheep of DEATH on 2006-05-08 20:25:11

The Vorbis encoder has seperately documented, nearly hidden commandlines which all start out like --advanced-encode-option X...


Boo for the fake link.


It's not a link, it's just underlined to draw attention to itself above the rest of my post  Yay for the real underline.

edit: If you want a link (it's fun to click things sometimes, right? ), here you go: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...ncoder_Settings (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis#Advanced_Encoder_Settings) or something like that... just grab the encoder and see if you can find them easily without that
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: gaekwad2 on 2006-05-08 21:03:31
<hat and cape on>
I'm in a position where I can steer history so we do not end up downloading a garbled 192kbps SBR+PS L/R stereo tune from an artists website, and I will take my responsibility to stop it from happening, at least with Nero AAC 
</hat and cape off>

L/R Stereo? That's nothing.

I know at least one person who swears by using the Winamp AAC encoder in Dual Channel mode. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Dzamburu on 2006-05-08 23:29:49
You now know a second person, i agree with dark sheep, becouse is right for advanced settings, but for me M/S stereo not sounds good, you can me prove that is not true, but for me is not same, nevermind that be mp3/aac other codec which uses M/S, i can prove to you what i hear becouse the differences are very small and not noticable. Dual Channel are not god and not same as real stereo L/R, i am not voting for Dual channel, than for L/R.

Graf is right about other peoples who can't use propertly encoder and make stupid things like using sbr at high rates, ps or other things. And me are sick when download some mp3 and i discovered that song done by IS stereo or mp3Pro or some other bad things.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-09 00:15:22
You now know a second person, i agree with dark sheep, becouse is right for advanced settings, but for me M/S stereo not sounds good, you can me prove that is not true, but for me is not same, nevermind that be mp3/aac other codec which uses M/S, i can prove to you what i hear becouse the differences are very small and not noticable. Dual Channel are not god and not same as real stereo L/R, i am not voting for Dual channel, than for L/R.


If you want to prove us - upload some samples encoded with a good AAC encoder (e.g. Nero AAC) and please pinpoint us to the stereo problems that you think won't be there if you use L/R coding.

Why is it hard to understand that AAC has the possibility to decide, on each frequency band, what is really better?  Come on, people, this is not MP3 where you had to code entire frame as L/R or M/S (and, therefore, you always had to make some compromise)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Lyx on 2006-05-09 00:26:05
for me M/S stereo not sounds good, you can me prove that is not true

Nobody needs to prove that you are wrong - but you are required by the board rules (TOS#8) to prove that you are right since you claimed it.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-09 01:06:38
ivan, if the encoder cannot decide to use PNS when it very well could use it, then i'd like the option to use it myself.

thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sgt_Strider on 2006-05-09 01:33:55
Just a quick question. Is this the same version that appears in Nero 7.2?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: gameplaya15143 on 2006-05-09 01:56:59
how about having 2 help options? like LAME --longhelp and --help

basic usage under -help (like the options now).. good for beginners
and all the stuff that can mess everything up under -longhelp ... enough options to keep control freaks like me  from complaining about the lack of options (like the lowpass frequency  )

anyways...

thanks for the encoder
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sofronis on 2006-05-09 02:13:05
I don't trust 99% of the "advanced" users to use these settings correctly, and the past with lamelines and everything (and even this thread) clearly show that it is a bad idea to expose them.

Although I agree that access to advanced options could lead to garbled encodings by some who think that they know how to use them, there is that 1% of users (probably 0,1%) that could actually help with the improvement of the encoder, by finding settings for example which could provide better quality with certain files. We’ve seen this in the past with lame for example, where certain switches, like “--athaa-sensitivity x” or “--vbr-new” just to name a few, where proven (by that aforementioned 1% of people and verified by others) to offer better quality than the default settings, helping the developers improve the codec.

I’m just saying that limiting the access to the internals could possibly inhibit the faster evolution of the codec and I don’t think that lame’s or Vorbis’ good reputation was ruined by the offer of such advanced options or that there was a big damage done by those very few, who despite all the warnings, use dubious custom command lines.

As a last note, I think that at least it would nice to be able to choose, when to use SBR or PS within certain bit rate limitations of course. Something similar to what the old encoder did.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-09 02:23:23
I don't trust 99% of the "advanced" users to use these settings correctly, and the past with lamelines and everything (and even this thread) clearly show that it is a bad idea to expose them.

<hat and cape on>
I'm in a position where I can steer history so we do not end up downloading a garbled 192kbps SBR+PS L/R stereo tune from an artists website, and I will take my responsibility to stop it from happening, at least with Nero AAC 
</hat and cape off>

i'm with you on that one.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-09 03:04:11

I don't trust 99% of the "advanced" users to use these settings correctly, and the past with lamelines and everything (and even this thread) clearly show that it is a bad idea to expose them.

Although I agree that access to advanced options could lead to garbled encodings by some who think that they know how to use them, there is that 1% of users (probably 0,1%) that could actually help with the improvement of the encoder, by finding settings for example which could provide better quality with certain files. We’ve seen this in the past with lame for example, where certain switches, like “--athaa-sensitivity x” or “--vbr-new” just to name a few, where proven (by that aforementioned 1% of people and verified by others) to offer better quality than the default settings, helping the developers improve the codec.

I’m just saying that limiting the access to the internals could possibly inhibit the faster evolution of the codec and I don’t think that lame’s or Vorbis’ good reputation was ruined by the offer of such advanced options or that there was a big damage done by those very few, who despite all the warnings, use dubious custom command lines.

As a last note, I think that at least it would nice to be able to choose, when to use SBR or PS within certain bit rate limitations of course. Something similar to what the old encoder did.


PNS would also be a good option to add.

reason why i am asking for this so much is because currently i have 2 mobiles i use for music that i switch back and forth with, one can play HE-AAC, the other can only do LC-AAC

in order to not use too much bitrate i encode the LC-AAC to 64kbps with PNS and it is sounding pretty good for the bitrate.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-09 05:17:12
All right... here is a small list of a few switches I'd like to see added:

Code: [Select]
-artwork      : Adds cover artwork from JPG, PNG or GIF files. If multiple
  <image>     : images are being added to a single album, the assumed sequence
              : is FRONT COVER, INSIDE 1, INSIDE 2, ... BACK COVER

-cdtextcue    : Parses an extended CD-TEXT compliant CUE sheet to determine
  <cue>       : MPEG-4 chapters, album information and song tags.

-channels     : Specifies the desired number of audio channels in the encoded
  <number>    : stream, if this differs from the source.
              : "1" will downmix to mono, by averaging channels.
              : "2" will downmix surround to stereo, or duplicate a single
              : channel as dual-channel mono.

-invert       : Specifies channels to invert. For stereo, can be used
  <chan,chan> : without any additional parameters to switch L and R.
              : For surround, channel pair to be inverted must be specified
              : (LF, RF, LR, RR, FC, P1...).
              : If inverting multiple sets in a surround signal, sets may
              : be given in sequence.
              : EX -> "-invert LF,LR,RR,RF" would switch the LF with the LR,
              : and the RR with the RF.
              : WARNING: It is pointless to use this with MONO! (Lest you ask...)

Sigh... wishful, wicked and ungrateful, isn't it? 

Appreciatively,
    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: William on 2006-05-09 06:38:59
I fully support the developers. I have seen the commandline mess in the history of LAME, and am annoyed by those newbies who does not know what they are doing, yet they just mess with the encoder and make some f**king crazy commandlines and claim to be a pro user. I don't want this history to repeat itself again if it can be prevented in the first place.

On the other hand, encoders should be smart enough and determine the optimal settings automatically, and it is the reponsibility of the developers to make sure the encoder works optimally in any situation. Users should not need to "tweak", and they should not tweak, the program themselves in order to get optimal settings.

So please, Garf and Ivan, close those development switches, and just leave them for your own development use. Then the world would be in peace.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-09 07:03:40
I want to reply to some particularly stupid FUD on the doom9.org forum someone pointed me to:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=825151&postcount=164 (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=825151&postcount=164)

The values I gave are AVERAGES. They're generated from running the encoder over a hopefully representative sample of my own music collection. The exact average you get will be only dependant on the complexity of your music, though if you encode enough, statistics tells us you should end up with something similar to my numbers. There is absolutely no guarantee that any given, isolated single piece you encode will end up with a bitrate that corresponds to that table.

In -q mode, the encoder solely and only looks at the output of the psymodel to determine how much bits to spend, and does not do any "averaging" whatsoever at all. There are no compromises, it's exactly what we say it is: pure, quality based VBR.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: yulyo! on 2006-05-09 07:29:17
Any frontend for the new encoder?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2006-05-09 07:30:42
Nero Burning Rom

or foobar2000
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kurtnoise on 2006-05-09 09:00:24
Hi,

I want to reply to some particularly stupid FUD on the doom9.org forum someone pointed me to:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=825151&postcount=164 (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=825151&postcount=164)

The values I gave are AVERAGES. They're generated from running the encoder over a hopefully representative sample of my own music collection. The exact average you get will be only dependant on the complexity of your music, though if you encode enough, statistics tells us you should end up with something similar to my numbers. There is absolutely no guarantee that any given, isolated single piece you encode will end up with a bitrate that corresponds to that table.

In -q mode, the encoder solely and only looks at the output of the psymodel to determine how much bits to spend, and does not do any "averaging" whatsoever at all. There are no compromises, it's exactly what we say it is: pure, quality based VBR.

I think it could be great to add your comments with this thread (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44310). To avoid some extras questions.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: raf on 2006-05-09 10:40:39
If you can't download the zipfile from the nero-server with ip 82.98.209.139 it's because the ip is in the InSoft range of some kind of IP-filter. Turn it off.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ruchi sharma on 2006-05-09 12:31:43
hi..........
i m not able to download this Nero Digital Audio Reference Quality MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Codec.
it is free for download.
can any one download it for me and send it to me.
my email address is        ruchi.sharma@patni.com
i m new for audio.

thanks n regards
ruchi


If you can't download the zipfile from the nero-server with ip 82.98.209.139 it's because the ip is in the InSoft range of some kind of IP-filter. Turn it off.

how??? can u tell me??
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-09 14:10:59
Quote
It also illustrate why short samples shouldn't be used for listening evaluation of "2-pass mode".


Well but you make exactly that when you compare CBR codec vs VBR codec with your short sample for subjective test ... ;-)

emphasis in quotation is mine.
My comment only apply for 2pass encoding mode. With ABR/CBR/VBR using short samples isn't a problem simply because the encoding performance is not dependant to what comes first and what comes next to the tested data.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-09 15:27:44
[code]-artwork     : Adds cover artwork from JPG, PNG or GIF files. If multiple
  <image>    : images are being added to a single album, the assumed sequence
           : is FRONT COVER, INSIDE 1, INSIDE 2, ... BACK COVER

never understud why someone would like to embeb a gfx inside a music file, why don't you just leave it at the music root folder?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: guruboolez on 2006-05-09 15:54:12
Digital Audio Players (like iPod for MP4 files) are working like that.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-05-09 15:56:06

[code]-artwork     : Adds cover artwork from JPG, PNG or GIF files. If multiple
  <image>    : images are being added to a single album, the assumed sequence
           : is FRONT COVER, INSIDE 1, INSIDE 2, ... BACK COVER

never understud why someone would like to embeb a gfx inside a music file, why don't you just leave it at the music root folder?



Some devices like iPods allow the display of album artwork on the screen, and this the image must be imbedded in the file.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Lyx on 2006-05-09 15:57:28
Although I agree that access to advanced options could lead to garbled encodings by some who think that they know how to use them, there is that 1% of users (probably 0,1%) that could actually help with the improvement of the encoder, by finding settings for example which could provide better quality with certain files.

Weeeh for tyranny of the minority and forcing developer-settings on the mainstream.

There is a much more easy solution to this: Developer-builds for, well, developers(testers).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-09 16:39:15
Digital Audio Players (like iPod for MP4 files) are working like that.

i understand ... so this way you can listen at the song, while looking at the screen at a still image of the album art ... cool! 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-09 16:43:20
Sigh... wishful, wicked and ungrateful, isn't it?


I think the channels thing should really be handled by something else, and the same for the invert thing.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-09 18:51:29
Some devices like iPods allow the display of album artwork on the screen, and this the image must be imbedded in the file.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that all the tags are stripped before an aac file is put on an ipod. The metadata and images are stored seperatly. So any player that supports an ipod and folder.jpg should be able to apply this style when transfering songs.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-09 18:59:05

Sigh... wishful, wicked and ungrateful, isn't it?


I think the channels thing should really be handled by something else, and the same for the invert thing.

what about PNS.
c'mon...it can't hurt.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: mic on 2006-05-09 19:15:41
Hi, I have the same problem  :
Quote
i'm getting this error with any wav file i try to encode using the non ss2 version (neroaacenc -q 0.5 -if 001.wav -of 001.mp4):
ERROR: could not open WAV file

I have WinMe. Is any way to launch it on this system?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-09 20:40:00
No,

This AAC encoder does not run on Win9x systems (Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME) as they do not have full Unicode support, which is what this encoder requires.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Latexxx on 2006-05-09 20:43:54
No,

This AAC encoder does not run on Win9x systems (Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME) as they do not have full Unicode support, which is what this encoder requires.

How about adding support for Unicows?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rufu on 2006-05-09 21:00:31

Some devices like iPods allow the display of album artwork on the screen, and this the image must be imbedded in the file.


Actually, I'm pretty sure that all the tags are stripped before an aac file is put on an ipod. The metadata and images are stored seperatly. So any player that supports an ipod and folder.jpg should be able to apply this style when transfering songs.


No the tags are not stripped on transfer to the iPod.  The file names are changed but the files themselves are not.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: tosse on 2006-05-09 21:14:33
Hi and thanks for this great encoder.

I've encoded a few albums and wondered why my average bitrates where a lot higher than those reported by other users (i.e. -q 0.425 results in about 128 kbit/s).

I realised that I have used the -lc switch (which I entered to be sure of iPod-compatability, not knowing what the HE-threshold was). I assumed that the switch would make no difference for higher quality levels.

I tested without the -lc switch now and the resulting file was a lot smaller.

My test gave an average bit rate of 179 kbit/s encoding with -q 0.425 -lc, and 133 kbit/s encoding with -0.425. Both the files where LC.

Is there a reason for this? Am I doing anything wrong?

The files where transcoded from flac with foobar 2000. The full command lines are as following:
-q 0.425 -lc -ignorelength -if - -of %d
-q 0.425 -ignorelength -if - -of %d
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-09 21:58:16
Normal and expected. If you force a quality profile, the -q scale changes.

Consider the following:

-q 0
-q 0 -lc
-q 1 -hev2

I don't see any way to make it behave consistently. Probably, the most reasonable thing to do would be to make the average bitrate equal, but of course that means that -q 0 -lc is very different quality from -q 0 -hev2.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: tosse on 2006-05-09 22:27:13
...
-q 0
-q 0 -lc
-q 1 -hev2
...

Thank you for your answer.

Yes, I realize that the quality scale changes when a quality profile is enforced as it is in your examples. However, the encoder choses LC for -q 0.425, therefore my guess was that adding the -lc switch when encoding with -q 0.425 wouldn't change the results.

What I mean is that the -lc swith is just redundant for -q 0.425 and not enforcing the quality profile.

Probably, the most reasonable thing to do would be to make the average bitrate equal, but of course that means that -q 0 -lc is very different quality from -q 0 -hev2.

That would be quite strange since the -q mode aims for quality and not bitrate. These switches would result in one LC file and on HEv2 file, which of course should have different bit rates when aiming for same quality.

But why should two LC files have different bit rates when aiming for the same quality?

But I guess my logic is somehow flawed, will remove the -lc. Thanks again.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-09 22:29:33
Normal and expected. If you force a quality profile, the -q scale changes.

Consider the following:

-q 0
-q 0 -lc
-q 1 -hev2

I don't see any way to make it behave consistently. Probably, the most reasonable thing to do would be to make the average bitrate equal, but of course that means that -q 0 -lc is very different quality from -q 0 -hev2.


But will -q .425 with no other params always give me a LC file?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: limbo on 2006-05-09 22:33:13
...to briefly change the subject, I've encoded my music from FLAC to AAC using Foobar and the neroAacEnc_sse2.exe encoder using the following parameters:

  -ignorelength -q 0.6 -if - -of %d

When listening to softer pieces on my iPod Shuffle, every 15-30 seconds I hear very brief but distinct dropouts. Playback via iTunes on my PC sounds fine.

Has anyone with a Shuffle heard the same?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-09 22:55:03

Sigh... wishful, wicked and ungrateful, isn't it?


I think the channels thing should really be handled by something else, and the same for the invert thing.

Sure, and if you are pre-processing your source, the most versatile tool is SoX (http://sox.sourceforge.net/). ("Invert" was basically added as an afterthought; I finished typing "Channels" and said to myself, "Well, if one went that far, how hard would it be to add this?")

What really puzzles me about the way the new encoder handles channels is that even if I feed it a MONO *.wav, the output *.m4a has both a LEFT and a RIGHT channel. I've not found a way to force this encoder to produce a single-channel *.m4a, despite the fact that both iTunes and Winamp will do so with the proper instructions. 

For an overly-simplistic example of why I think this would be a good idea, if a user were encoding streamable content (-cbr), and had two stations (one mono, and the other stereo), intuition says "halve the bitrate for the mono station since you are only encoding one channel, and it will save bandwidth."

But in practice, at the moment, halving the bitrate for the mono station results in a lower-bitrate dual-mono channel, which (depending on how well the encoder recognizes that the actual content is monaural) may or may not sound as good.

Almost every other lossy encoder I've ever used had some sort of mono mode. At the very least, could we have a program smart enough to say "Hey, there's only ONE channel on this source! I'll just use one channel when I encode it, instead of two."

Cheers,
    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-09 22:57:07
Mono channels should be encoded as mono.

They are just decoded as stereo.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: limbo on 2006-05-09 23:13:09
...to briefly change the subject, I've encoded my music from FLAC to AAC using Foobar and the neroAacEnc_sse2.exe encoder using the following parameters:

  -ignorelength -q 0.6 -if - -of %d

When listening to softer pieces on my iPod Shuffle, every 15-30 seconds I hear very brief but distinct dropouts. Playback via iTunes on my PC sounds fine.

Has anyone with a Shuffle heard the same?


Well, tested with a 2G iPod and it's fine. Must be a Shuffle thing. Sorry to interrupt.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-09 23:13:42
Mono channels should be encoded as mono.

They are just decoded as stereo.

Ivan, when I play a "mono" iTunes encode in Winamp (using the AudioCoding "MP4 input plugin for Winamp" from RareWares (http://www.rarewares.org/mp4.html)) it shows up as one channel. But when I play a "mono" file from your encoder it shows up as two channels.

A single-channel *.wav was used to encode each *.m4a file. This isn't a case of CD-mono content (dual channels, even if the content is the same) being mistaken for subtle stereo; it appears the encoder is taking a single-channel source and storing it as two channels within the encoded file, even though that is not required by the MPEG-4 spec!

Unless I've horribly misunderstood the purpose of a mono channel, that just doesn't make any sense. 

    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-09 23:36:41
No, what Ivan said is exactly correct:

The file is mono, but it will be decoded as stereo.

The reason for this is that a mono file *may* in fact be a parametric stereo file (the decoder can't know for sure), so a mono file could possibly suddenly transform into a stereo file in the middle of decoding. For this reason, the FAAD2 decoder, and everything based on it, will decode them always as stereo, even if they are mono.



Normal and expected. If you force a quality profile, the -q scale changes.

Consider the following:

-q 0
-q 0 -lc
-q 1 -hev2

I don't see any way to make it behave consistently. Probably, the most reasonable thing to do would be to make the average bitrate equal, but of course that means that -q 0 -lc is very different quality from -q 0 -hev2.


But will -q .425 with no other params always give me a LC file?


Yes, unless it turns out that some improvement to SBR makes it useful for higher bitrates, or we manage to improve quality so much that you can get -q 0.425 quality at significantly lower bitrates.

But for the current encoder, it's always LC.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: MuncherOfSpleens on 2006-05-10 00:09:51
Hmm, this is odd.  When I use only the "-q 0.4" option, it produces a LC-AAC file at ~130kbps.  However, when the "-lc" option is added, the average bitrate jumps about 60kbps.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: M on 2006-05-10 00:49:02
No, what Ivan said is exactly correct:

The file is mono, but it will be decoded as stereo.

The reason for this is that a mono file *may* in fact be a parametric stereo file (the decoder can't know for sure), so a mono file could possibly suddenly transform into a stereo file in the middle of decoding. For this reason, the FAAD2 decoder, and everything based on it, will decode them always as stereo, even if they are mono.

Okay, what you've said makes sense. iTunes "mono" files are *not* be parametric stereo, since they show up as mono regardless of how they are decoded, and are strictly channel-limited. You've basically chosen (for reasons of quality) to allow the encoder to parametrically determine the necessary separation, based on content. (Phrased redundantly, but you know what I mean.)

But to draw to the logical conclusion: If a Nero-codec "mono" file is parametric stereo, and -cbr 128000 (when used for streaming a stereo station) determines one set of frequency cutoff values and dynamic assumptions, does -cbr 64000 dynamically adjust those cutoffs and assumptions based on monaural content? Or will the apparent quality of the -cbr 64000 mono stream be significantly lower than its stereo -cbr 128000 counterpart?

    - M.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-10 00:50:48
garf. why are you avoiding my question?

why not give me explanation of why PNS would be a "bad" idea.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-10 01:11:27
Hmm, this is odd.  When I use only the "-q 0.4" option, it produces a LC-AAC file at ~130kbps.  However, when the "-lc" option is added, the average bitrate jumps about 60kbps.


I already explained this like 2 or 3 posts before yours 

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=390899 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=44275&view=findpost&p=390899)

garf. why are you avoiding my question?

why not give me explanation of why PNS would be a "bad" idea.


I already answered your question:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....ndpost&p=390517 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=44275&view=findpost&p=390517)



Yes, I realize that the quality scale changes when a quality profile is enforced as it is in your examples. However, the encoder choses LC for -q 0.425, therefore my guess was that adding the -lc switch when encoding with -q 0.425 wouldn't change the results.

[...]

But why should two LC files have different bit rates when aiming for the same quality?

But I guess my logic is somehow flawed, will remove the -lc. Thanks again.


You're still forcing it to a specific mode. If you do this, you end up on a different scale than with normal -q.

I thought some time about "fixing" this, but as explained in my previous answer, I don't think it's possible in general so I didn't bother too much. Don't force profiles unless you absolutely need to.

If you look at this graph for 6 channel encoding:

http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=n...052006gerad.png (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neroaaccliencoder01052006gerad.png)

You can see what happens. Note how the two parts of VBR(free) are parellel with respenctive parts of LC(force) and HE(force). Also note that if there wasn't a remapping going on, you would't be able to make 300kbps encodes, because the encoder would jump from 200 to 400kbps.


Okay, what you've said makes sense. iTunes "mono" files are *not* be parametric stereo, since they show up as mono regardless of how they are decoded, and are strictly channel-limited. You've basically chosen (for reasons of quality) to allow the encoder to parametrically determine the necessary separation, based on content. (Phrased redundantly, but you know what I mean.)
    - M.


No, no, no, I absolutely did not say this anywhere. I didn't even mention the word encoder.

Encoding a mono file gives you a mono file.

Decoding a mono file can give you a stereo file. (depends on the decoder)

If it's still not clear now, I don't know how else to explain it.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Creature on 2006-05-10 02:42:50
I have WinMe. Is any way to launch it on this system?

Yes it's possible.  E-mail me, I teach you how to make it run... It's really simple.
NeroAACDec/Enc/Enc_sse2 runs under Win9x/Me without any problems. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-10 03:01:42
Yes it's possible.  E-mail me, I teach you how to make it run... It's really simple.
NeroAACDec/Enc/Enc_sse2 runs under Win9x/Me without any problems. 

Why don't you just share your knoledge here?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Apesbrain on 2006-05-10 03:04:41
I just noticed that latest Foobar (9.2 beta 2) has a built-in converter option for "MP4 Nero" that includes a button to download this new encoder.

For this to work, what folder does the encoder have to be in?

And how does one specify the "SSE2" version?

Thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: loophole on 2006-05-10 03:42:36
Has anyone managed to make this work under Virtual PC? It just crashes for me immediately after displaying the copyright and build info.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: BinaryTB on 2006-05-10 04:13:44
Normal and expected. If you force a quality profile, the -q scale changes.

Consider the following:

-q 0
-q 0 -lc
-q 1 -hev2

I don't see any way to make it behave consistently. Probably, the most reasonable thing to do would be to make the average bitrate equal, but of course that means that -q 0 -lc is very different quality from -q 0 -hev2.

So is there a quality cut-off point where LC isn't used?  I just want to make sure to get the same quality LC file with a lower bitrate (by NOT using the -lc switch or any quality profile switch).  Don't want to end up encoding my collection and then find out that my iPod can't play the files because they ended being encoded to HE or HEv2.

Maybe the -lc switch should only "activate" if neroenc decides that the file will be encoded using HE or HEv2?  Considering that -lc gives higher bitrates for the same quality LC file.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-10 04:15:05
PNS is an encoder internal?

then how come it is enabled in the GUI on NERO 7.2?

this does not seem like it should be some super top secret option, all i and many more ask for it a more decent lowpass for this encoder, and PNS can help this.

please take this into consideration when coding the next build, thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jevinsweval on 2006-05-10 04:25:20
And how does one specify the "SSE2" version?


Just take the _sse2 part out of the filename.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Creature on 2006-05-10 05:52:35

Yes it's possible.  E-mail me, I teach you how to make it run... It's really simple.
NeroAACDec/Enc/Enc_sse2 runs under Win9x/Me without any problems. 

Why don't you just share your knoledge here?

Well... Only one thing is really needed - emulation of CreateFileW function...
Like this:
-----------
char szName[MAX_PATH];
WideCharToMultiByte(GetACP(),CP_ACP,lpFileName,-1,szName,1023,NULL,NULL);
return CreateFile(szName,dwDesiredAccess,dwShareMode,lpSecurityAttributes,dwCreationDisposition,dwFlagsAndA
ttributes,hTemplateFile);
------------
(Other ~7 W-function... just ignore it) You need create dll and force encoder to use it instead of kernel32.dll.. It's all, any average programmer can do it.
def-file must contains other 84 kernel functions used by encoder. (Implementation needed only for CreateFileW)
It's works... and works about 10% faster under W9x compared to Win2k... I don't know why... and don't want to know  I'm compared results of W9x&W2k ecoding procceses... and it's match within round errors. And _SSE2 version match perfectly.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: MuncherOfSpleens on 2006-05-10 06:11:57
Hmm, this is odd.  When I use only the "-q 0.4" option, it produces a LC-AAC file at ~130kbps.  However, when the "-lc" option is added, the average bitrate jumps about 60kbps.


I already explained this like 2 or 3 posts before yours 

Another faux pas in the same thread!

But I'm still curious (considering that it is a quality-based system), why would adding the -lc command make the encoder think that it needs ~60 more kbps to achieve the same "quality" (even though everything else is the same)?  And though I haven't done any testing to prove it, it's doubtful that a ~54kbps -q 0.4 -hev2 file is of equal quality to a ~185kbps -q 0.4 -lc file.

So (I think I finally understand this ) the -q # setting when used with the profile switches isn't based on absolute quality, but rather relative quality for each specific profile.  -q 0.0 is the lowest quality that its respective profile is most optimal for, and -q 1.0 is the highest quality that its optimal for.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: tosse on 2006-05-10 06:16:06
Maybe the -lc switch should only "activate" if neroenc decides that the file will be encoded using HE or HEv2?  Considering that -lc gives higher bitrates for the same quality LC file.
If I understand it correctly the -lc switch does not only give a higher bit rate but also higher quality (different quality scales are used). This should only be true for q values higher than the value where the encoder choses LC by itself.

My encodes seems to indicate that -q 0.31 -lc roughly equals -q 0.425.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: smok3 on 2006-05-10 07:49:27
its a different scale, thats it, i guess there is:

1. one scale for all (when just doing -q x.x) - that includes he, hev2, lc
2. 2nd scale for forced he
3. 3rd scale for forced hev2
4. 4th scale for forced lc

this 4 scales dont have any quality connections between them.

---
so 4 scales depending on the forced settings, hopefully devs can confirm or deny this?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: halb27 on 2006-05-10 08:46:58
If the meaning of the -q quality level changes whether or not -lc is used it really says quality level is not the only target but considerations about bit rate drop in as well.
This has always been my suspicion with vbr mode of many encoders, but in principal shouldn't be like that: quality is quality, and bitrate is bitrate, and bitrate oriented operation modes are available anyway.

A direct consequence is for instance my own little listening test with -lc has turned out worthless as I had in mind those average bitrates given at the table in this thread or the settings thread. This also shows information about this encoder can lead to a lot of confusion due to this concept. BTW: is there a corresponding -lc table?

This problematic meaning of 'quality mode' hurts this encoder more than other ones as the quality level  of other encoders does not depend on further settings. With AAC however chosing the profile is essential as for targeting at playing systems.

In this sense a quality mode which choses the profile automatically (and when doing so can change choosing characteristics from version to version) is very questionable to me. And it looks like this is one of the major targets of current Nero AAC development: take a quality level as input and let the encoder choose all the other details like profile, PNS, etc.
While this is a good thing in theory in praxis we have to take into account what the target player is able to do.

I'd rather prefer to
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2006-05-10 09:03:18
I just noticed that latest Foobar (9.2 beta 2) has a built-in converter option for "MP4 Nero" that includes a button to download this new encoder.

For this to work, what folder does the encoder have to be in?
Already answered.  Anywhere.  If foobar can't find the EXE where the preset says it is it will open a dialogue and ask you to specify the directory that contains the EXE.

And how does one specify the "SSE2" version?
Edit the preset and change the dropdown to "Custom".  You can then change the filename from neroAacEnc.exe to neroAacEnc_sse2.exe.

While you are doing this you may as well just use the dialogue to point to your EXE, negating the first question/answer.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-10 09:47:15
PNS is an encoder internal?

then how come it is enabled in the GUI on NERO 7.2?


A truly horrible mistake that I hope will be fixed in the next version.


If the meaning of the -q quality level changes whether or not -lc is used it really says quality level is not the only target


Wrong.

Quote
but considerations about bit rate drop in as well.


No.

Quote
BTW: is there a corresponding -lc table?


No. Feel free to generate one.

Quote
This problematic meaning of 'quality mode' hurts this encoder more than other ones as the quality level  of other encoders does not depend on further settings.


Completely wrong.


The only thing I agree with is that device compatibility plays an issue. Which is why the next version will have a set of 4 simple compatibility profiles. If it depends on me, the possibility for the user to select the encoding mode (LC/HE) also goes away at that point.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: menno on 2006-05-10 09:48:32
The reason for this is that a mono file *may* in fact be a parametric stereo file (the decoder can't know for sure), so a mono file could possibly suddenly transform into a stereo file in the middle of decoding. For this reason, the FAAD2 decoder, and everything based on it, will decode them always as stereo, even if they are mono.


This behaviour is actually a requirement in the MPEG-4 standard for PS capable decoders on mono files without explicit signalling of NO PS. Having said that, explicit signalling could be added to one of the next versions, we are considering this. However, "FAAD2, and everything based on it," does not have support for this explicit signalling.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-10 10:57:10
But I'm still curious (considering that it is a quality-based system), why would adding the -lc command make the encoder think that it needs ~60 more kbps to achieve the same "quality" (even though everything else is the same)?  And though I haven't done any testing to prove it, it's doubtful that a ~54kbps -q 0.4 -hev2 file is of equal quality to a ~185kbps -q 0.4 -lc file.


As explained a few times already: forcing the encoder mode puts you on a different quality scale. How to achieve the same quality as at -q 0.5 -lc when switching to hev2? What's the equivalent LC quality for -q 0 -hev2? I don't think it's possible to make a scale that is and always consistent, and offers all quality/bitrate/mode options, even if it's possible to hack around the "-q 0.425 -lc" vs "-q 0.425" issue. So, I'd rather spend time to remove the need to use the "-lc/-he/-hev2" overrides instead.

Quote
So (I think I finally understand this  ) the -q # setting when used with the profile switches isn't based on absolute quality, but rather relative quality for each specific profile.  -q 0.0 is the lowest quality that its respective profile is most optimal for, and -q 1.0 is the highest quality that its optimal for.


Somewhat, but not entirely. -q is literally the switch that selects how "picky" or "sensitive" the psymodel is (are you hearing me, "-q is not quality mode and considers bitrate" trolls?). You can observe this for example by trying -q 1 -hev2. The encoder will just throw its hands in the air since it has no way to please the high demands when it has to use SBR and PS. Selecting for example -q 0.15 -lc, and then switching to -q 0.15 -he, will reduce in a large bitrate drop because the psymodel is only having to consider half of the spectrum anymore (the rest belongs to SBR).

Hence you get different quality scales.  This is evil, because So, if you don't force the encoder to a specific mode, we internally remap everything to compensate for what the psymodel can't see, to present you with a single, fluid, consistent and correct quality scale which has optimal switching decisions between the modes and behaves like you'd expect.

If you do force the encoder to a specific mode, thereby indicating that you believe you are capable of handling the starship, be sure to understand that the Warp scale is not linear and that travelling at faster than light speeds brings unexpected results.

I'm wondering if I'm doing any good with these explanations, since it seems the more we explain, the more people keep asking the same thing over and over, or come up with totally weird theories which are entirely and completely wrong.

So, I think I'm going to have a bet with Ivan when the first person to explain to us that our encoder has a problem with it's dilithium crystals is going to show up.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: br0adband on 2006-05-10 11:42:53
"I'm giving it all she's got, Captain... but if I push her past -q 0.5, she's gonna overcompensate for too many command line switches..."

Does that make me the winner of the "Spot The Dilithium Crystal Encoder" contest?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Again, great work guys, I finally finished my 100 DVD FLAC > Nero mp4 conversion, boy that took a few days but it's nice to have a freshly formatted iPod with 9250+ songs on it all done nice and clean with the new encoder. And no, I won't be redoing it again just because an improved encoder might come out.

"It sounds fine to me as is, and that's all that matters."

Thanks...
bb
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-10 11:44:37
It is official,

Next revision of Nero AAC Encoder will in fact have explicit SBR signalling in a backwards compatible way.
Hopefully this will solve "mono decoded as stereo" problems, and also problems on some 3G phones not "seeing" SBR and decoding just LC.

As far as quality scale goes - we will consider the input from the communities and see if we can improve it even more - we will keep our HA friends posted here on any changes.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ozmosis82 on 2006-05-10 13:47:36
I finally finished my 100 DVD FLAC > Nero mp4 conversion, boy that took a few days but it's nice to have a freshly formatted iPod with 9250+ songs on it all done nice and clean with the new encoder. And no, I won't be redoing it again just because an improved encoder might come out.


I'm in the process of completing the finishing touches on my 50 DVD (I'm catching up) FLAC > Nero MP4 conversion, and I've gotta say that I'm in complete agreement with you bb. It's going to take a fairly significant improvement in the encoder to make me go through that again.

Cheers again Garf, Ivan and team.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Gabriel on 2006-05-10 14:22:47
PNS is an encoder internal?

then how come it is enabled in the GUI on NERO 7.2?

My guess is that it is there because of potential compatibility issues with some devices.

@Nero team: why not having a "portable device encoding wizzard", where the user first selects the device brand, then the model. This way, average Joe would not have to worry about selecting between mpeg2/4, LC/HE, PNS and the likes. (this could even produce old mp3 when selecting a legacy device)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: SirGrey on 2006-05-10 14:27:19
>>So, I'd rather spend time to remove the need to use the "-lc/-he/-hev2" overrides instead.
Hmmm... Just noticed:
If I need 64Kbit LC file, if SBR will be automatically used, then I will receive shitty 11KHz sound when playing on lc only capable device, while it would be 16Khz "normal" sound...
So, disabling this switch can raise some problems, I think.
Am I right ?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-10 15:00:56
>>So, I'd rather spend time to remove the need to use the "-lc/-he/-hev2" overrides instead.
Hmmm... Just noticed:
If I need 64Kbit LC file, if SBR will be automatically used, then I will receive shitty 11KHz sound when playing on lc only capable device, while it would be 16Khz "normal" sound...
So, disabling this switch can raise some problems, I think.
Am I right ?


Please read the other posts. I stated that I'd rather replace those swithes by a "profile" system.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Kostarum Rex Persia on 2006-05-10 15:06:54
And, Ivan, please, make possible other input files, not only WAV files. I can't convert my MP2, AC3 and other audio files to newest Nero AAC encoder.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-10 15:08:43
@Nero team: why not having a "portable device encoding wizzard", where the user first selects the device brand, then the model. This way, average Joe would not have to worry about selecting between mpeg2/4, LC/HE, PNS and the likes. (this could even produce old mp3 when selecting a legacy device)


I think this a truly incredibly outstanding and excellent idea, I could not agree more, and I think this needs to be implemented as soon as possible.

Now, if only I had one of each of the popular music player devices handy here, I could test them and implement this very easily.

Boss, boss, are you reading this?   
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kurtnoise on 2006-05-10 15:09:04
And, Ivan, please, make possible other input files, not only WAV files. I can't convert my MP2, AC3 and other audio files to newest Nero AAC encoder.

huh ? you can do that easily with foobar and the right plugins.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-10 15:09:44
@Kostarum Rex Persia,

I think I already replied to you on this question on some other forum.

No, we (Nero) cannot do that, because:

a) In that case product cannot be free anymore (many codecs, unlike AAC, require per-unit royalties to be paid and have no options of single annual payments)

b) This is an encoding, not a transcoding tool


And, as others pointed out - this makes no difference, as there are already bunch of tools that could use this encoder to do exactly what you want.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Creature on 2006-05-10 15:16:28
And, Ivan, please, make possible other input files, not only WAV files. I can't convert my MP2, AC3 and other audio files to newest Nero AAC encoder.

I'm just released my MPWGUI_v2.1 english version with iTunes/NeroAACEnc/FAAC support, you can convert MP2/AC3... and more with it: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44473 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44473)
Read readme.txt carefully! It's really simple GUI... but it have unique feature - it can save your time.
Freeware.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: menno on 2006-05-10 15:18:06

@Nero team: why not having a "portable device encoding wizzard", where the user first selects the device brand, then the model. This way, average Joe would not have to worry about selecting between mpeg2/4, LC/HE, PNS and the likes. (this could even produce old mp3 when selecting a legacy device)


I think this a truly incredibly outstanding and excellent idea, I could not agree more, and I think this needs to be implemented as soon as possible.

Now, if only I had one of each of the popular music player devices handy here, I could test them and implement this very easily.

Boss, boss, are you reading this?   

I'll put a hardware request
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ssjkakaroto on 2006-05-10 15:31:40
sorry if this is a repost, simple gui for neroaacenc (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=825816)
credits to imcold
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-10 15:32:38
PNS is an encoder internal?

then how come it is enabled in the GUI on NERO 7.2?


A truly horrible mistake that I hope will be fixed in the next version.


what, the omision of PNS will be fixed and available?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-10 15:37:59

PNS is an encoder internal?

then how come it is enabled in the GUI on NERO 7.2?


A truly horrible mistake that I hope will be fixed in the next version.


what, the omision of PNS will be fixed and available?


No, the fact that an encoder internal is exposed in the GUI.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-10 16:03:35
Just where did you see that "internal" - as far as I know Nero 7.2 has a simple GUI with a slider, not a PNS checkbox.

If you got the old dialog, it must be that you have aac.dll installed still.

--

This does not apply to Recode, which is still using the old encoder.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: halb27 on 2006-05-10 16:26:12

@Nero team: why not having a "portable device encoding wizzard", where the user first selects the device brand, then the model. This way, average Joe would not have to worry about selecting between mpeg2/4, LC/HE, PNS and the likes. (this could even produce old mp3 when selecting a legacy device)


I think this a truly incredibly outstanding and excellent idea, I could not agree more, and I think this needs to be implemented as soon as possible.

Now, if only I had one of each of the popular music player devices handy here, I could test them and implement this very easily.

Boss, boss, are you reading this?   


Of course this suits perfectly your 'do absolutely everything internally' strategy.

But do you really want to do that? You have to update your encoder often, have to consider the specific side conditions of any device indidually. As I'm a developer myself I would never go into these dependencies. I would like to spent my time in a more productive way.
At the moment this might be manageable as there are not very many devices out there supporting AAC.
But this can change, and maybe is about to change for mobile phones already.

Moreover tailoring the encoded file to a specific device means restricted application for the encoded file.
The encoded files become at least potentially device-dependent.

Sorry, I'm thankful for your free encoder, but this is one of the worst ideas I've read in recent times.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-10 16:32:32
PNS will be re-enabled in encoder soon, but not in the way some people proposed here.

There will be an option to disable PNS by selecting a special compatibilioty profile.

In other cases, PNS will be employed only where it brings benefits, and this is the job of encoder's psychoacoustic model to find out.

My best guess is that we will probably enable usage of PNS at bit rates <=80 kbps stereo for LC-AAC.

This will improve lowpass as well.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-10 16:44:27
And, Ivan, please, make possible other input files, not only WAV files. I can't convert my MP2, AC3 and other audio files to newest Nero AAC encoder.


Oh come on, dude. Audio encoders take WAV files as input. Read around a bit, then come back.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: SirGrey on 2006-05-10 16:44:28
Quote
>>Please read the other posts. I stated that I'd rather replace those swithes by a "profile" system.

Sorry. Didn't catch that.
Quote
why not having a "portable device encoding wizzard", where the user first selects the device brand, then the model.

Yes, it would be easy for user, but could be very complicated way for developer.
There are hundreds (at least) mobile players available worldwide and a new players became available every day/week. How could it be supported ?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: al_iguana on 2006-05-10 17:03:49
There are hundreds (at least) mobile players available worldwide and a new players became available every day/week. How could it be supported ?


well, there may be hundreds of devices, but they all support a common format (mostly). For example, older nokia phones support AAC-LC (64 quality would be fine), newer ones AAC+v2 (48 quality would do).  iPods support AAC-LC. 128 quality would do. you just need a .txt file (to be read by NeroENC) with models/prefered encoding method listed, and this could be updated once a month or whatever.

(before anyone says "I'm not putting rubbishy 128kps on my iPod!!" well, if you're that picky about your music, then you're not the sort of person that would be using presets anyway)

As someone who regularly has to help out friends with putting music onto iPods/PVPs/phones, I would vote for this feature.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-10 17:13:02


@Nero team: why not having a "portable device encoding wizzard", where the user first selects the device brand, then the model. This way, average Joe would not have to worry about selecting between mpeg2/4, LC/HE, PNS and the likes. (this could even produce old mp3 when selecting a legacy device)


...if only I had one of each of the popular music player devices handy here,....

Boss, boss, are you reading this?       


....

Sorry, I'm thankful for your free encoder, but this is one of the worst ideas I've read in recent times.


Every idea which ends up me with having a few hundred portable devices to play with is by definition brilliant

But yeah, it's not a very maintainable strategy.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Gabriel on 2006-05-10 17:15:35
Yes, it would be easy for user, but could be very complicated way for developer.
There are hundreds (at least) mobile players available worldwide and a new players became available every day/week. How could it be supported ?


At least for the "Nero Digital" players, this should be easy.
If I remember well, there was a list of drives able to change their speed on the cd-speed website. Situation was the same: hundred of potential devices, but it existed.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: halb27 on 2006-05-10 18:35:19
@ garf & ivan:

Obviously your strategy is to keep details away from the user and let the encoder decide to the utmost extent.
Taking this as a preposition my proposal is:
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-10 19:01:56
I understand your request for features, but we won't put features that could damage the encodings, and/or lead people to possible confusion.

With fixed quality params, we can be sure that every Nero AAC encoding that is produced is made with optimal quality for a given bit-rate.

Of course we will add features, and I promise some very very cool developments this year
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: [JAZ] on 2006-05-10 19:34:04
Wasn't it easy to retain the quality scale ( q 0 , bad quality, q 1 best quality it can give ), and then let the user specify what he *doesn't* want?

Example :

By default, the encoder chooses, but the user has the option to disable the use of some of the internals, in order to maintain compatibility.

Examples:
  player doesn't support HE-AAC , then  :  encode  -q 0.3  --no-heaac

  player support HE-AAC, but not PS, then : encode -q 0.2 --no-ps

Of course, this also would apply to cbr and abr (encoder choosing the best it knows)

This will even ease the profile system that you're describing.

<joke>
this would only mean that there wouldn't be 128kbps HE-AAC radio streams...
</joke>
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sven_Bent on 2006-05-10 20:09:26
Ivan you bad boy.

is there o way to encode some tags inside te mp4 file.
just liek with nero.

tracn number & total track number
Artist
Album
title

would be perfect
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: stephanV on 2006-05-10 22:52:34
I think Nero is right in not exposing too many features. They have a name to hold up high and on the long run too many switches with unknown and probably negative effects can only hurt them. I thinks such things belong in a beta-test.

Furthermore, I, as a user, do not want to be thinking about lowpass, PNS and whatever kind of switches there are. I do not even want to know what they are and I expect the encoder to make such decisions by itself. This is after all a consumer product, not an experimental encoder. If with the help of switches better quality can be achieved than the encoders defaults in a large amount of cases, the defaults are poorly chosen and Nero devs are not doing their job right.

The only things I, as a user, do want to have a saying in are filesize (bitrate) and compatibility because these things directly affect the usability of the product for me.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: chrisgeleven on 2006-05-11 01:08:04
I just tried out this on a Windows machine. Very pleased with what I have heard so far.

Man I wish there was better audio support on OS X for all of this cool stuff. Only negative about being on a Mac.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ckjnigel on 2006-05-11 09:29:03
This topic got so long so fast that it's pretty much unusable.
I hope somebody creates a Wiki of what's important to users.
Anyway, congrats to Ivan, Garf, Menno and the rest of the Nero people involved.
My one request is better ability to control size of HE-AAC output; q 0.225 seemed fairly close to 48kbps nominal, but averages have been at 54 kbps in some of my trials.
For musicphones storage room will be a constraint for a couple more years, so the HE-AAC size should be more closely constrained than LC-AAC.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: menno on 2006-05-11 10:04:23
AAC: What I've read here, you can encode aac music, but you cannot be sure, that every aac compliant hardware device can play it ?


Every AAC compliant device can play the files, however, a pure LC AAC decoder will decode a HE AAC file, but only the LC AAC part of the file. So you will get degraded quality, compared to decoding with a HE AAC decoder. For devices/decoders like that it is better to create LC AAC files instead of wasting bits (and decreasing bandwidth a lot) by using HE AAC.
Same sort of story applies for HE AACv2.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan B. on 2006-05-11 11:52:26
Can it be configured with EAC to create .m4a files directly when extracting tracks fom audio cd?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jevinsweval on 2006-05-11 14:13:48
Could Ivan or Garf please tell us how to embed album art into the encodes?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-11 14:38:31
Currently with Foobar - but command line tagging will come very soon.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rbrito on 2006-05-11 15:33:55
Currently with Foobar - but command line tagging will come very soon.


I just checked the site and you guys at Nero have updated it with a PDF manual, which is quite welcome.

Would it be possible, though, to provide a Linux i386 binary? If necessary, you could, perhaps, create the encoder as staticly linked, to avoid having problems with libraries shipped with the diversity of distributions.

Thanks, Rogério Brito.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Synthetic Soul on 2006-05-11 15:40:23
Can it be configured with EAC to create .m4a files directly when extracting tracks fom audio cd?
Yes, just stipulate the extension as M4A instead of MP4.  Same with foobar.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44310 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44310)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Erukian on 2006-05-11 17:20:24
Ivan, thanks for all your teams work and giving this out for free.

My only suggestion is that if possible, support ALAC with the same enc/dec -- while we know it's an Apple format, it would be pretty kickass you have to admit. Hopefully licencing doesnt get in the way of that potential road.

-Joe
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sven_Bent on 2006-05-11 18:22:56
Sorry if this has alrready be answered.
I just quickly passed by the 16 pages but didn't find an answer.

i can't playback the mp4 files in winamp.

first i tried with my original 5.12 with some mp3 plugin form audiocoding

i deleted it and reinstaledl a fresh copy of winamp v5.21 lite
got i new mp3 plugin from rareware.org (still from audiocoding but maybe newer)

but i still get the same errors:

"maximum numbers  og scalefactor bands exceeded"
"Gain control not yet implanted"
"Pulse coding not allowed in sjort blocks"
"Scalefactor out of range"
"quantised valie out of range"

i used the folloowing command line in CDex

-br %3 -2pass -if %1 -of %2

%1 = input filename
%2 = output filename
%3 = bit rate in bits/sec      
      
and i have not modified the file in anyway since the extraction


-- Edit --
has sombody teste if these .mp4 files work on a ipod?

I got some from the psytel encoder, that my ipods just skips by whenever it tries to play them.
Playback is fine in winamp though.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sven_Bent on 2006-05-11 18:33:48
UPDATE

i triede getting the full winamp 5.21 with nullsoft's own mp4 pugin.
Didn't help
Still no playback, but now there is no error msg.

-- edit --

Found te bug. is has nothing to due with the encoder.
If i extract the .wav and run the commandline myself, the files playbacks perfectly.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-05-11 18:37:42
i can't playback the mp4 files in winamp.

i deleted it and reinstaledl a fresh copy of winamp v5.21 lite
got i new mp3 plugin from rareware.org (still from audiocoding but maybe newer)

but i still get the same errors:

"maximum numbers  og scalefactor bands exceeded"
"Gain control not yet implanted"
"Pulse coding not allowed in sjort blocks"
"Scalefactor out of range"
"quantised valie out of range"

i used the following command line in CDex

-br %3 -2pass -if %1 -of %2

%1 = input filename
%2 = output filename
%3 = bit rate in bits/sec



The only thing that I'm thinking it might be is the %3, seeing how the nero encoder passes the -br parameter as bits per second, so 128 kbps would be -br 128000 .  You could be getting encodes that are at .128 kbps (128 bits per second), and winamp is puking.  Do the files play in foobar2000 or any other player?

My nero aac standalone encoded files play fine in winamp.

Oh, and getting a new mp3 plugin from rarewares shouldn't matter at all; this is aac / mp4 / m4a, not mp3.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-11 19:07:44
Ivan, thanks for all your teams work and giving this out for free.

My only suggestion is that if possible, support ALAC with the same enc/dec -- while we know it's an Apple format, it would be pretty kickass you have to admit. Hopefully licencing doesnt get in the way of that potential road.

-Joe


ALAC Each one of those would be enough to switch to something else. There is exactly ZERO chance that we will ever support it in any way (not that we even could, because as I already stated, it's proprietary). Please, take a look at FLAC or Wavpack and leave alone the horrible abomination that is ALAC.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: gaekwad2 on 2006-05-11 19:33:03
Found te bug. is has nothing to due with the encoder.
If i extract the .wav and run the commandline myself, the files playbacks perfectly.

What version of CDex did you use?

I tried 1.60 from rarewares with different bitrates but couldn't get Winamp to barf.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-11 20:56:10
If that is of any help,  our PNS and IS powered modes at 64 and 80 kbps are done, and they have been sent to tuning process

So expect maximum squeeze of LC-AAC for those bit-rates in the next couple of weeks
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Gambit on 2006-05-11 20:58:54
Off-topic posts split here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44520). No more of that, please.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-11 21:03:54
if this off topic let me know.


but i remember distinctly the lowpass in 16kbps hev2 being just under 15khz, what happened to this to make it a pitiful 10khz? they both sound pretty good for the bitrate, but i much prefer the higher frequency of the older nero.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: DARcode on 2006-05-11 22:21:13
Currently with Foobar - but command line tagging will come very soon.
Great news! Thanks for the superb work! Can't wait for it.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: The Sheep of DEATH on 2006-05-11 22:59:02
If that is of any help,  our PNS and IS powered modes at 64 and 80 kbps are done, and they have been sent to tuning process

So expect maximum squeeze of LC-AAC for those bit-rates in the next couple of weeks

Awesome, thanks!  This is really appreciated 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-11 23:17:40
Currently with Foobar - but command line tagging will come very soon.

one question, maybe allready asked, why is it that it does nothing and then it suddenly finishes? would be better to see a sinning simbol, or something. or at least one:

"Working, please wait ..."
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jevinsweval on 2006-05-12 00:07:53
Any help with the album art? I want to encode all my FLAC files for my shiney new iPod!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ckjnigel on 2006-05-12 04:49:37
Our very own "optimus" (Stanley Huang in Shanghai), whose home in HydrogenAudio has been http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=36870&hl= (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36870&hl=) , has released a new version of his Media Coder, 0.3.9, with built-in support for this Nero encoder. View the changelog and click for a Sourceforge download mirror from http://mediacoder.sourceforge.net/changelogfullpack.htm (http://mediacoder.sourceforge.net/changelogfullpack.htm) .
I think Stanley deserves his own MediaCoder home here in HA.
Ver 0.3.9 works beautifully for me; output is *.m4a.  The program places just the neroEncAac.exe file in its default codecs folder, but you can copy over from the Nero download the neroEncAac_sse2.exe and point to that file in "File>Settings" -- if that works with your CPU.
Thanks, Stanley!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-12 07:37:44

Currently with Foobar - but command line tagging will come very soon.

one question, maybe allready asked, why is it that it does nothing and then it suddenly finishes? would be better to see a sinning simbol, or something. or at least one:

"Working, please wait ..."


I already added a nice progress display a few days ago
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: adamjk on 2006-05-12 11:21:02

Currently with Foobar - but command line tagging will come very soon.

one question, maybe allready asked, why is it that it does nothing and then it suddenly finishes? would be better to see a sinning simbol, or something. or at least one:

"Working, please wait ..."


I already added a nice progress display a few days ago

Many thanks, but where this version is available?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-12 15:36:09


I already added a nice progress display a few days ago

Many thanks, but where this version is available?


Available on the next update.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sven_Bent on 2006-05-12 19:28:15

Found te bug. is has nothing to due with the encoder.
If i extract the .wav and run the commandline myself, the files playbacks perfectly.

What version of CDex did you use?

I tried 1.60 from rarewares with different bitrates but couldn't get Winamp to barf.


my version is 1.51 but my bug was caused by the ID3 tag that CDex adds to the file.
Disable the id3 tag and the files should playback perfectly.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Axon on 2006-05-12 20:41:55
Super high level question:

Is there a set of test results to compare this encoder against LAME, in particular at high bitrates? Can we safely use the last published set of results for Nero's encoder?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-12 20:56:31
Super high level question:

Is there a set of test results to compare this encoder against LAME, in particular at high bitrates? Can we safely use the last published set of results for Nero's encoder?


It has had several important bugfixes as well as quality improvements[1] since then. I know we always say this but it's true!

[1] <nitpick>TOS 8 violation!</nitpick>
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Daijoubu on 2006-05-12 23:01:10
On a P3 933Mhz, the nero encoder acheived 5.4x (36 secs) while CT+dimzon CLI (25 secs) one encoded at 7.8x (timed with a stop watch...)

3:16 song, CBR 64kbps HE-AAC

Gonna try with a longer track on my A64 3200+ (SSE2) later
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: manuelator on 2006-05-13 03:49:23
If you want to reconvert yo aac (or m4a or mp4) audio to wav mono use ffmpeg with the aac codec and do:

ffmpeg.exe -i 2.mp4 -ac 1 test.wav  easy
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jevinsweval on 2006-05-13 22:45:27
How do we add album art?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sofronis on 2006-05-14 02:16:49
I found an interesting sample (it’s an artificial sound of a vehicle) taken from the Star Wars Episode III movie. I was able to ABX it all the way up to Q 1 (~420kbps) using some cheap Philips speakers (didn’t have my headphones around). The problem is located in the left channel, at the beginning of the track (0 - 0.4 sec), where there is some sort of distortion on those high frequency (~12khz) short “clicks”. If you find it hard to ABX, try a lower quality setting (for example Q 0.4) which will accentuate the problem, making it easier to spot.

You can find the 48khz stereo track which I used for the encodings (downmixed from a 5.1 channel, ac3 track) here (http://www.geocities.com/georgiosbogosian/Utapau_chase.zip).

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.1
2006/05/14 03:15:21

File A: E:\New Folder\audio test\q 1.mp4
File B: E:\New Folder\audio test\Utapau_chase.wv

03:15:21 : Test started.
03:16:58 : 01/01  50.0%
03:18:02 : 02/02  25.0%
03:19:35 : 03/03  12.5%
03:21:47 : 04/04  6.3%
03:23:13 : 05/05  3.1%
03:26:13 : 06/06  1.6%
03:28:58 : 06/07  6.3%
03:30:17 : 07/08  3.5%
03:32:13 : 08/09  2.0%
03:37:31 : 09/10  1.1%
03:42:17 : 10/11  0.6%
03:48:36 : 11/12  0.3%
03:51:36 : 12/13  0.2%
03:53:02 : 13/14  0.1%
03:55:17 : 14/15  0.0%
03:55:22 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 14/15 (0.0%)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-14 02:38:20
I found an interesting sample (it’s an artificial sound of a vehicle) taken from the Star Wars Episode III movie. I was able to ABX it all the way up to Q 1 (~420kbps) using some cheap Philips speakers (didn’t have my headphones around). The problem is located in the left channel, at the beginning of the track (0 - 0.4 sec), where there is some sort of distortion on those high frequency (~12khz) short “clicks”. If you find it hard to ABX, try a lower quality setting (for example Q 0.4) which will accentuate the problem, making it easier to spot.

You can find the 48khz stereo track which I used for the encodings (downmixed from a 5.1 channel, ac3 track) here (http://www.geocities.com/georgiosbogosian/Utapau_chase.zip).

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.1
2006/05/14 03:15:21

File A: E:\New Folder\audio test\q 1.mp4
File B: E:\New Folder\audio test\Utapau_chase.wv

03:15:21 : Test started.
03:16:58 : 01/01  50.0%
03:18:02 : 02/02  25.0%
03:19:35 : 03/03  12.5%
03:21:47 : 04/04  6.3%
03:23:13 : 05/05  3.1%
03:26:13 : 06/06  1.6%
03:28:58 : 06/07  6.3%
03:30:17 : 07/08  3.5%
03:32:13 : 08/09  2.0%
03:37:31 : 09/10  1.1%
03:42:17 : 10/11  0.6%
03:48:36 : 11/12  0.3%
03:51:36 : 12/13  0.2%
03:53:02 : 13/14  0.1%
03:55:17 : 14/15  0.0%
03:55:22 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 14/15 (0.0%)


Would the fact that it's coming from AC3 be an issue?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: auldyin on 2006-05-16 10:43:31
I am about to try using Foobar 0.9.1 to transcode some wv files to m4a using the new Nero codec. Trouble is I have no idea about command line stuff.

Can any of you chaps tell me the command line for Foobar to transcde my wv files to ~ 128 m4a files.

Sorry to be a bof (boring old fart)

Cheers
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-16 10:45:05
I am about to try using Foobar 0.9.1 to transcode some wv files to m4a using the new Nero codec. Trouble is I have no idea about command line stuff.

Can any of you chaps tell me the command line for Foobar to transcde my wv files to ~ 128 m4a files.

Sorry to be a bof (boring old fart)

Cheers


http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44310 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44310)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: auldyin on 2006-05-16 11:46:29
Quote
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44310 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44310)

Thanks Garf.
I saw that
Quote
-ignorelength -q 0.5 -if - -of %d

but didn't know what this bit meant
Quote
-if - -of


In my ignorance I thought that "something" had to be placed between the "if" and the "of"

Cheers
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-16 12:06:10
Quote
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44310 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44310)

Thanks Garf.
I saw that
Quote
-ignorelength -q 0.5 -if - -of %d

but didn't know what this bit meant
Quote
-if - -of


In my ignorance I thought that "something" had to be placed between the "if" and the "of"

Cheers


if = input file
of = output file

you'll notice there's an "-" inbetween, which means "standard input". This system avoids writing a temporary file and is supported by foobar2000.

So, it means, take input from standard input, output to %d (filled in by fb2k)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: auldyin on 2006-05-16 13:54:35
Cheers Garf!!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: euphonic on 2006-05-16 16:08:29
Just a little suggestion, to have minimum OS requirements listed on http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/Nero_Digital_Audio.html (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/Nero_Digital_Audio.html)
Specifically, so that folks like myself and others earlier in the thread who likewise downloaded the programme will know a unicode-capable OS is required. Looking at http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/Nero_D...quirements.html (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/Nero_Digital_System_Requirements.html) gives a misleading impression.

Cheers.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: towolf on 2006-05-23 13:06:40
Sounds really promising, wish I could give it a try. How long till the UNIX version? Can you elaborate on that?
Thanks a lot for the generous offer.

Either

1 Nero Month.

or

When it's done


Just wondering, compared to the moon-related one, is the Nero Month longer or shorter?
Or are we even in the second conditional already?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LaserSokrates on 2006-05-23 15:18:07
I think that "1 Nero Month" and "When it's done" is pretty much the same, at least for the customer.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-24 16:58:31
I was wondering if a dev could take a look at a tagging problem that I've been having:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44454 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44454)

Basicaly, if I take a Nero-encoded file and tag it with AtomicParsley Foobar can't read it, but if I encode the same wav with iTunes then tag with AP, all is well.

Of course, if tagging gets bundled into the executable, this problem goes away and I won't have to try to rely on programs that try to "douche" foobar2000 tags.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-24 17:00:12
We will issue a new update in the few days, which will among other things also include a command line tagger.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: alfa156 on 2006-05-24 17:09:00
sorry for the perhaps lame question but is there a free frontend we could use?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-24 17:35:02
sorry for the perhaps lame question but is there a free frontend we could use?

its called command prompt
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-05-24 18:03:39
sorry for the perhaps lame question but is there a free frontend we could use?


dbPowerAmp, Foobar2000, and apparently one is in development over at doom9.org.  Look upward in this thread for more info.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Maurits on 2006-05-25 13:02:36
We will issue a new update in the few days, which will among other things also include a command line tagger.

Will this solve all the 'non-compliant tagging' disputes that several developers in the AAC/M4A world seem to blame eachother for?

And is it true Nero writes the tag at the end of a file? 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: wylistener on 2006-05-25 13:24:54
We will issue a new update in the few days, which will among other things also include a command line tagger.


Will that commandline tagger enable the single mp4 feature such as CUE sheet, album art, etc?  The feature stated in the first post of this thread is:

"* Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!"
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-05-25 13:29:30

We will issue a new update in the few days, which will among other things also include a command line tagger.


Will that commandline tagger enable the single mp4 feature such as CUE sheet, album art, etc?  The feature stated in the first post of this thread is:

"* Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!"



Signs point to yes.  But, as always, wait for a dev to say anything before you take that as fact.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AstralStorm on 2006-05-31 21:21:51
Great codec. Vorbis can't come close even with latest aoTuV mods until about
-q -1 vs -q 0.2. Then it's a tie.
I mean that audio at 11kbps is even fairly listenable.
(unlike some Garf's experiments with Vorbis at lowest bit rates)

Are SBR+PS responsible for such good results?

I wonder which one's better at higher bit rates, like ~160 kbps. (or Vorbis -q 5)
Probably neither...

Do you have even more up your sleeve?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-05-31 22:37:36
Great codec. Vorbis can't come close even with latest aoTuV mods until about
-q -1 vs -q 0.2.

Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-06-01 13:41:36
New Version (1.0.0.2) is out, get it from:

http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php)

Quote
Version Number: 1.0.0.2

Release Date: 18/05/2006
New Features:

    * neroAacTag.exe for Nero Digital Audio Tagging
    * Nero AAC Encoder
      - Now writes mpeg-4 tags at the beginning of the MP4/3GP files
      - Now supports multiple input files (-if) and produces a multichapter
        MP4 file when more than one input file is present
      - Backwards compatible signalling of SBR and PS Audio Object Types
        (also when LC is used for encoding) for improved 3GPP
        Compatibility
      - Added progress display
    * Nero AAC Decoder
      - changed to new faster AAC/HE-AAC/HE-AAC v2 decoder
      - Added support for the backwards compatible signalling and
        corresponding behaviour


Version Number: 1.0.0.0

Release Date: 01/05/2006
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-06-01 13:45:06
New Version (1.0.0.2) is out, get it from:

http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php)

Quote

Version Number: 1.0.0.2

Release Date: 18/05/2006
New Features:

    * neroAacTag.exe for Nero Digital Audio Tagging
    * Nero AAC Encoder
      - Now writes mpeg-4 tags at the beginning of the MP4/3GP files
      - Now supports multiple input files (-if) and produces a multichapter
        MP4 file when more than one input file is present
      - Backwards compatible signalling of SBR and PS Audio Object Types
        (also when LC is used for encoding) for improved 3GPP
        Compatibility
      - Added progress display
    * Nero AAC Decoder
      - changed to new faster AAC/HE-AAC/HE-AAC v2 decoder
      - Added support for the backwards compatible signalling and
        corresponding behaviour


Version Number: 1.0.0.0

Release Date: 01/05/2006




...and there we are.    The features of the new tagger should be interesting and very, very useful.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: wylistener on 2006-06-01 14:04:59
New Version (1.0.0.2) is out, get it from:

http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php)

Quote

Version Number: 1.0.0.2

Release Date: 18/05/2006
New Features:

    * neroAacTag.exe for Nero Digital Audio Tagging
    * Nero AAC Encoder
      - Now writes mpeg-4 tags at the beginning of the MP4/3GP files
      - Now supports multiple input files (-if) and produces a multichapter
        MP4 file when more than one input file is present
      - Backwards compatible signalling of SBR and PS Audio Object Types
        (also when LC is used for encoding) for improved 3GPP
        Compatibility
      - Added progress display
    * Nero AAC Decoder
      - changed to new faster AAC/HE-AAC/HE-AAC v2 decoder
      - Added support for the backwards compatible signalling and
        corresponding behaviour


Version Number: 1.0.0.0

Release Date: 01/05/2006



So how do I use the neroAacTag.exe commandline tagger to enable the single mp4 feature such as CUE sheet, album art, etc? The feature stated in the first post of this thread is:

"* Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!"
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-06-01 14:12:39
- You can feed encoder now with multiple PCM WAV files (check out the release notes) - output will be the multichapter file

- You can then use the tagger to set the metadata, and optionally also add cover art in the file (front/back cover, etc...)

Please check the command line tool's help.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: .halverhahn on 2006-06-01 14:49:32
New Version (1.0.0.2) is out, get it from:
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php)

Hvala lepo!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Wedge on 2006-06-01 15:10:13
Thanks a bunch for this. Any plans(date) for a linux binary?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: wylistener on 2006-06-01 16:12:06
- You can feed encoder now with multiple PCM WAV files (check out the release notes) - output will be the multichapter file

- You can then use the tagger to set the metadata, and optionally also add cover art in the file (front/back cover, etc...)

Please check the command line tool's help.


But feeding it multiple files doesn't make sense.  I take CD, rip it to a single WAV+CUE.  I now have ONE single 500mb WAV file that has an associated CUE sheet that shows where all the track points are.

What you're saying is I need to split my single WAV file into separate WAVs per song and then feed that back into neroAacEnc.exe with the new “-if” option. And then I have to write some customer parser (C program, PERL, whatever) to parse the CUE file for “TRACK” and “INDEX” meta and feed that to neroAacTag.exe?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-06-01 16:37:23
Thanks a bunch for this. Any plans(date) for a linux binary?


Have you been able to get NeroAacTag to work with Wine? I just get a "Could not update MP4 file" error.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Maurits on 2006-06-01 16:44:29
- Now writes mpeg-4 tags at the beginning of the MP4/3GP files

Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-06-01 16:51:28
Yes, direct cuesheet parsing is a good idea - it will be added in the next revision.

Quote
Have you been able to get NeroAacTag to work with Wine? I just get a "Could not update MP4 file" error.


We will look into this - Linux Version is also coming soon so I guess that will be a native solution for it.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: binkgle on 2006-06-01 18:20:14
when encoding with eac, do i direct the encoder to neroaacencoder_sse2.exe or neroaactag.exe if i want tagged m4a's?  same question for foobar, i guess...
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-06-01 18:55:21
when encoding with eac, do i direct the encoder to neroaacencoder_sse2.exe or neroaactag.exe if i want tagged m4a's?  same question for foobar, i guess...



Neroaactag.exe doesn't encode, it only tags.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LaserSokrates on 2006-06-01 19:52:03
My Settings in EAC for encoding and tagging with nero are:
user- defined encoder, file ending .m4a
Program used:
Code: [Select]
C:\Windows\system32\cmd.exe

additional commands:
Code: [Select]
/c C:\path\to\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.425 -if %s -of %d && C:\pat\to\Neroaactag.exe %d -meta:artist="%a" -meta:album="%g" -meta:track="%n" -meta:title="%t" -meta:genre="%m" -meta:year="%y"


You might want to change the paths according to your personal preference
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-06-01 21:32:19
just updated MAREO (4.0.1 now) to include the configuration option for the tagger.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Waterfall on 2006-06-01 21:40:43
If that is of any help,  our PNS and IS powered modes at 64 and 80 kbps are done, and they have been sent to tuning process

So expect maximum squeeze of LC-AAC for those bit-rates in the next couple of weeks


Ah, I've been waiting for this release!!! Sadly, I can only play LC-AAC on my portable

What switches do I use to encode at these powered modes?

And which switches should I use with -lc to get the best results?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-06-01 21:52:07
Does the new tagger set iTunes-style in addition to Nero tags? If so, does it duplicate data in the Nero tags, or only use the Nero tags for the meta-data that can't be held in iTunes tags?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: binkgle on 2006-06-01 22:35:08
My Settings in EAC for encoding and tagging with nero are:
user- defined encoder, file ending .m4a
Program used:
Code: [Select]
C:\Windows\system32\cmd.exe

additional commands:
Code: [Select]
/c C:\path\to\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.425 -if %s -of %d && C:\pat\to\Neroaactag.exe %d -meta:artist="%a" -meta:album="%g" -meta:track="%n" -meta:title="%t" -meta:genre="%m" -meta:year="%y"


You might want to change the paths according to your personal preference


thx, i'll give it a shot
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: ssjkakaroto on 2006-06-01 23:51:02
thx a lot for the update nero team!
any particular reason for this change Ivan?
Quote
-Now writes mpeg-4 tags at the beginning of the MP4/3GP files
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: al_iguana on 2006-06-02 00:00:24
thanks to the Nero team, this gets better and better, and is now my encoder of choice.

for the tagging in EAC, i would use -meta:track="%n/%x"  which gives track 02/11 etc (at least in Foobar. Track number/of doesn't show up in iTunes for some reason). Tagger is very fast, and very welcome
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-06-02 00:17:27

Thanks a bunch for this. Any plans(date) for a linux binary?


Have you been able to get NeroAacTag to work with Wine? I just get a "Could not update MP4 file" error.


Nevermind. It's just because Wine won't let an app modify a file that's outside of the Windows sandbox. I'll have to look into that.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: dano on 2006-06-02 00:25:14
for the tagging in EAC, i would use -meta:track="%n/%x"  which gives track 02/11 etc (at least in Foobar. Track number/of doesn't show up in iTunes for some reason). Tagger is very fast, and very welcome

You should use -meta:track="%n" and -meta:totaltracks="%x"
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Creature on 2006-06-02 06:01:22
New Version (1.0.0.2) is out, get it from:
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php)

I'm just encoded file with new neroaacenc... neroaacenc.exe -q 0.425 -lc -if xxx.wav -of xxx.m4a
CoolEdit recognized xxx.m4a as a AAC-HE and it's sounded like a average AAC-HE...
I'm think it is a side effect of "Backwards compatible signalling of SBR and PS Audio Object Types
(also when LC is used for encoding) for improved 3GPP Compatibility"
... but why it's affect the playback quality of winamp/cooledit?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: limbo on 2006-06-02 08:09:01

New Version (1.0.0.2) is out, get it from:
http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php (http://www.nero.com/nerodigital/eng/down-ndaudio.php)

I'm just encoded file with new neroaacenc... neroaacenc.exe -q 0.425 -lc -if xxx.wav -of xxx.m4a
CoolEdit recognized xxx.m4a as a AAC-HE and it's sounded like a average AAC-HE...
I'm think it is a side effect of "Backwards compatible signalling of SBR and PS Audio Object Types
(also when LC is used for encoding) for improved 3GPP Compatibility"
... but why it's affect the playback quality of winamp/cooledit?



...and I've just discovered that the new version produces .m4a that my Shuffle won't play, whereas previous version with the same settings did. This evening I'll try experimenting with the command line switches and tagging to see if it makes a difference. Can anyone else with a Shuffle verify this? I tried various -q and used the recommended command line settings for foobart2000.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: i000 on 2006-06-02 09:45:43
Quote
...and I've just discovered that the new version produces .m4a that my Shuffle won't play, whereas previous version with the same settings did. This evening I'll try experimenting with the command line switches and tagging to see if it makes a difference. Can anyone else with a Shuffle verify this? I tried various -q and used the recommended command line settings for foobart2000.


will check it ASAP, but first try running mp4creator -optimize *. m4a (get it at rarewares.org). the shuffle won't read files which have the tag data at the end.

Which version of foobar did you use to produce your files? foobar2000 0.9 does tagging when converting but it attaches them to the end

Marcin
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: limbo on 2006-06-02 11:52:39
Quote

...and I've just discovered that the new version produces .m4a that my Shuffle won't play, whereas previous version with the same settings did. This evening I'll try experimenting with the command line switches and tagging to see if it makes a difference. Can anyone else with a Shuffle verify this? I tried various -q and used the recommended command line settings for foobart2000.


will check it ASAP, but first try running mp4creator -optimize *. m4a (get it at rarewares.org). the shuffle won't read files which have the tag data at the end.

Which version of foobar did you use to produce your files? foobar2000 0.9 does tagging when converting but it attaches them to the end

Marcin


I'll try it this evening. I'm using 0.9.1, which is what worked with the previous version of the nero encoder. (I should just mention that iTunes displays and plays the files fine.) I'll also try encoding without foobar, to see if it is causing the problem.

I'm keen to get this working, because the Nero encoder sounds excellent to my ears.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Squeller on 2006-06-02 13:20:04
I've never seen such a brilliant progress display before

Anyway, I like the codec, the results have surprising quality and, imporatnt to me: Searching is extremely fast.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: menno on 2006-06-02 15:23:32
I'm just encoded file with new neroaacenc... neroaacenc.exe -q 0.425 -lc -if xxx.wav -of xxx.m4a
CoolEdit recognized xxx.m4a as a AAC-HE and it's sounded like a average AAC-HE...
I'm think it is a side effect of "Backwards compatible signalling of SBR and PS Audio Object Types
(also when LC is used for encoding) for improved 3GPP Compatibility"
... but why it's affect the playback quality of winamp/cooledit?


Old FAAD2 just reads that info incorrectly, nothing to worry about, the file is LC
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: limbo on 2006-06-02 21:47:15
Quote

...and I've just discovered that the new version produces .m4a that my Shuffle won't play, whereas previous version with the same settings did. This evening I'll try experimenting with the command line switches and tagging to see if it makes a difference. Can anyone else with a Shuffle verify this? I tried various -q and used the recommended command line settings for foobart2000.


will check it ASAP, but first try running mp4creator -optimize *. m4a (get it at rarewares.org). the shuffle won't read files which have the tag data at the end.

Which version of foobar did you use to produce your files? foobar2000 0.9 does tagging when converting but it attaches them to the end

Marcin


Marcin, you're brilliant!  mp4creator -optimize did the trick. I'll go that route.  Out of interest, I noticed that with the "unoptimized" files, that the Shuffle would finally play each one after a pause of several minutes. Not sure why the shuffle needs to read the tags, since it has no where to display the info.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: binkgle on 2006-06-03 00:42:53

My Settings in EAC for encoding and tagging with nero are:
user- defined encoder, file ending .m4a
Program used:
Code: [Select]
C:\Windows\system32\cmd.exe

additional commands:
Code: [Select]
/c C:\path\to\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.425 -if %s -of %d && C:\pat\to\Neroaactag.exe %d -meta:artist="%a" -meta:album="%g" -meta:track="%n" -meta:title="%t" -meta:genre="%m" -meta:year="%y"


You might want to change the paths according to your personal preference


thx, i'll give it a shot


this isn't working for me, i get a message saying that the external compressor returned an error.  any ideas on why this might be?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: skelly831 on 2006-06-03 01:28:23
this isn't working for me, i get a message saying that the external compressor returned an error.  any ideas on why this might be?

Are you typing yuor paths correctly?, if your paths to the encoder and tagger have spaces (like having C:\Exact Audio Copy\neroaacenc.exe), you need to put the whole path in quotes.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: binkgle on 2006-06-03 02:32:00

this isn't working for me, i get a message saying that the external compressor returned an error.  any ideas on why this might be?

Are you typing yuor paths correctly?, if your paths to the encoder and tagger have spaces (like having C:\Exact Audio Copy\neroaacenc.exe), you need to put the whole path in quotes.


there we go, that was the issue.  thanks so much
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Creature on 2006-06-03 03:41:26
Old FAAD2 just reads that info incorrectly, nothing to worry about, the file is LC

Not just info, faad decoded & new neroaacdec decoded raw pcms differs by values... That values can't be described as a round errors... and this difference audible for me (at least @ -q 0.5), MP4 created by neroaacenc v1.0 and decoded by old&new neroaacdec and faad tied within acceptable round errors... I don't understand why bring this.. "signalling" thing for AAC-LC... iTunes properly encoded & decoded AAC-LC, mono as a mono, stereo as stereo without any "signalling". Why not use more compatible way for this like a Apple did?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: fanbanlo on 2006-06-03 06:44:19
help... I'm trying to convert WMA -> WAV -> AAC by piping ffmpeg -> nero's CLI encoder...

I tried with nerodigital 1.0.0.2, and here's my result.:
Code: [Select]
C:\ffmpeg>ffmpeg -i INPUT.wma -acodec pcm_s16le -f wav - | neroaacenc_sse2 -q 0.
28 -ignorelength -if - -of output.mp4

FFmpeg version CVS, Copyright (c) 2000-2004 Fabrice Bellard
  configuration:  --enable-theora --enable-mp3lame --enable-libogg --enable-vorb
is --enable-faad --enable-faac --enable-xvid --enable-x264 --enable-mingw32 --en
able-a52 --enable-dts --enable-pp --enable-gpl --enable-memalign-hack --enable-a
mr_nb --enable-amr_wb
  libavutil version: 49.0.0
  libavcodec version: 51.1.0
  libavformat version: 50.0.0
  built on Jan 29 2006 03:34:22, gcc: 4.0.2
Input #0, asf, from 'INPUT.wma':
*************************************************************
*                                                           *
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder *
*  Copyright (C) 2006 Nero AG                               *
  Duration: 00:41:10.4, start: 0.608000, bitrate: 20 kb/s
  Stream #0.0: Audio: wmav2, 22050 Hz, mono, 20 kb/s
Output #0, wav, to 'pipe:':
  Stream #0.0: Audio: pcm_s16le, 22050 Hz, mono, 352 kb/s
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0.0 -> #0.0
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide                            *
*                                                           *
*  Package build date: May  1 2006                          *
*                                                           *
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.   *
*                                                           *
*************************************************************
[color=red]ERROR: could not parse WAV file[/color]
size=  106376kB time=2470.0 bitrate= 352.8kbits/s
video:0kB audio:106376kB global headers:0kB muxing overhead 0.000040%


Problem with piping?  'cause I tried:
> ffmpeg -i input.wma -f wav temp
> neroaacenc_sse2 -q 0.28 -ignorelength -if temp -of output.mp4

and it works... Nero's problem or XP's piping problem?

Thank you.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: dummptyhummpty on 2006-06-03 11:33:56
Sweet! This was worth the wait. I've got it working except how do I set the iTunes compilation filed to true or false? I tried -meta-user:compilation="true" or ="false" but that did not work. Any ideas? Thanks!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: dano on 2006-06-03 11:44:04
-meta-user:itunescompilation=1
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: dummptyhummpty on 2006-06-03 11:52:36
-meta-user:itunescompilation=1


Thanks! And 0 for if it is not one?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: i000 on 2006-06-03 12:07:26
Quote
Out of interest, I noticed that with the "unoptimized" files, that the Shuffle would finally play each one after a pause of several minutes. Not sure why the shuffle needs to read the tags, since it has no where to display the info.


It does not, the big ipod also does not read tags, everything is stored in db files, but The shuffle knows which track it is playing - you can sync it with last.fm via amarok (i do it that way). If you are using iTunes there is also a problem with streaming back-tagged m4a files. When you are on windows use tag&rename to tag your files it's the only one working for me. On linux no solution (exept tagging and optimizing)

btw. does anyone know a method to optimize so it does not change its creation time (mp4creator does it through a temp file) i need it because amarok rea-dds optimized files to your collection.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: dano on 2006-06-03 12:36:59

-meta-user:itunescompilation=1


Thanks! And 0 for if it is not one?

If it's no compilation then the field should not be used at all or removed, but maybe setting it to zero has the same effect.

It does not, the big ipod also does not read tags, everything is stored in db files, but The shuffle knows which track it is playing - you can sync it with last.fm via amarok (i do it that way). If you are using iTunes there is also a problem with streaming back-tagged m4a files. When you are on windows use tag&rename to tag your files it's the only one working for me. On linux no solution (exept tagging and optimizing)

btw. does anyone know a method to optimize so it does not change its creation time (mp4creator does it through a temp file) i need it because amarok rea-dds optimized files to your collection.

Mp3tag v2.36 now also puts the atoms at the beginning and it also has the optimize feature.
It should also keep the creation time.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sven_Bent on 2006-06-03 16:04:12
The chapters support is just wonderfull.

but as someone mentioned. it would be nice to be able to rip into on .wav and then refer to the cue sheet for th chapter info.

wouldn't that also be more precise regarding where to put the chapters points ?

How does chapter support work in winamp ?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: torok on 2006-06-04 05:25:10
Here's a little writeup I did on getting this all to run under Linux, including ReplayGain:

http://pkulak.com/articles/18 (http://pkulak.com/articles/18)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Waterfall on 2006-06-04 18:23:32
Is it possible to write into .3gp with this encoder?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Teetrinker on 2006-06-04 19:33:26
Is it possible to write into .3gp with this encoder?
Use MP4Box after encoding.

>MP4Box -add neroAacEnc.mp4#1 out.3gp
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sven_Bent on 2006-06-04 19:46:07
is there a way to make it use more cpu pwoer to improve quality.

psytell encoder once had such a switch  believe it was -production

beacuse wit the speed it as nowm i would gladly pay up to 50% more encoding time for a "5-10% more quality"


Also SMP support ?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AstralStorm on 2006-06-06 01:18:58
is there a way to make it use more cpu pwoer to improve quality.
psytell encoder once had such a switch  believe it was -production
beacuse wit the speed it as nowm i would gladly pay up to 50% more encoding time for a "5-10% more quality"


Don't even mention that antique. ;-)

It's not easy to trade CPU power for better encoding. The only thing off the top of my head is using better, slower quantizer and having a variety of them, like LAME.
Anything else is just tuning and won't use more CPU.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2006-06-07 01:42:52
is there a way to make it use more cpu pwoer to improve quality.

psytell encoder once had such a switch  believe it was -production

beacuse wit the speed it as nowm i would gladly pay up to 50% more encoding time for a "5-10% more quality"


Also SMP support ?


Use a higher setting, and ABX.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: audioflex on 2006-06-08 06:03:56
why is PNS non activated still?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: G B Rao on 2006-06-09 14:00:27
Given a file encoded with the Nero encoder, is it possible to find out which version of the encoder was used to encode it ?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: adamjk on 2006-06-09 14:22:36
Given a file encoded with the Nero encoder, is it possible to find out which version of the encoder was used to encode it ?

Open file in Foobar2000 and check properties of file. There will be displayed date of compilation. Even using notepad you can do it using "Find" function (string "nero").
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: G B Rao on 2006-06-10 04:57:39
OK, thanks a lot.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: elwoodthegreat on 2006-06-12 19:45:00
Has anyone been able to stream hinted mp4 files created with the nero encoder using Darwin Streaming Server?

The errors I get from Quicktime when connecting is "-5402 Bad Data"
And from VLC I just get "Unable to open"
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: sven_Bent on 2006-06-21 07:15:54
the song encodde from tis utiltity seem to get the end cut off by the ipod

The files plays perfectly in winamp.
But wit playback on the ipod, the last couples of seconds or so is missing. (pretty annoying)
i used the following command line

neroAacEnc_sse2.exe -br 128000 -2pass -if i <input file>.wav -of <output file>.m4a
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: stephanV on 2006-06-21 11:27:03
It is funny that the same thing happens with LAME...

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=42538 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=42538)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: elwoodthegreat on 2006-06-21 19:10:52
I fixed my problem with nero encoded and hinted mp4 files not being streamed by Darwin Streaming Server.

Although the encoder still has a problem, I just did the encoding without adding hinting and added it with mp4creator.

I hope they fix the encoder so I don't have to use another application to accomplish what the nero encoder claims it does.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Waterfall on 2006-06-28 01:28:22
Just tried latest Nero Recode. Is there HE v2 option for the soud?

It works for audio encoding. What about video with SBR+PS?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Firon on 2006-06-28 01:44:53
I've seen a few videos with 5.1 HE-AAC v2, though I don't think the videos were encoded/muxed with Nero. It's possible to do, at least.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LI-Greg on 2006-07-04 19:13:21
Have the latest ver, and am having difficulty using REACT and the neroaactag app.

REACT file is:


!Description=Tagged FLAC, mp3 and mp4 files with RG album and track tags

!destdir1=@musicdir@\FLAC\$cdartist$\$album$
!destdir2=@musicdir@\MP3\$cdartist$\$album$
!destdir3=@musicdir@\MP4\$cdartist$\$album$
!destdir4=@musicdir@\MP4-Q\$cdartist$\$album$


!dest1=@destdir1@\$track$ - $title$
!dest2=@destdir2@\$track$ - $title$
!dest3=@destdir3@\$track$ - $title$
!dest4=@destdir4@\$track$ - $title$


!Various-dest1=@destdir1@\$track$ - $title$
!Various-dest2=@destdir2@\$track$ - $title$
!Various-dest3=@destdir3@\$track$ - $title$
!Various-dest4=@destdir3@\$track$ - $title$

echo.> "@dest1@.tmp"
@encdir@\Tag.exe --nocheck --ape2 -t "ARTIST=@artist@" -t "ALBUM=@album@" -t "TRACK=@track@" -t "TITLE=@title@" -t "YEAR=@year@" -t "GENRE=@genre@" -t "TOTALTRACKS=@numtracks@" -t "FREEDB=@freedbid@" -t "CRC=@crc@" "@dest1@.tmp"
move "@source@" "@dest1@.wav"

@encdir@\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.5 -if "@dest1@.wav" -of "@dest3@.mp4"
@encdir@\Neroaactag.exe "@dest3@.mp4" -meta:artist="@artist@" -meta:album="@album@" -meta:track="@track@" -meta:title="@title@" -meta:genre="@genre@" -meta:year="@year@"

@encdir@\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.95 -if "@dest1@.wav" -of "@dest4@.mp4"
@encdir@\Neroaactag.exe "@dest4@.mp4" -meta:artist="@artist@" -meta:album="@album@" -meta:track="@track@" -meta:title="@title@" -meta:genre="@genre@" -meta:year="@year@"


if @islast@==1 (
  move "@eaclog@" "@destdir1@\eaclog.txt"
  move "@trackscuesheet@.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Gow on 2006-07-05 01:01:12
Have you tried the setup used in the mp4 REACT config and just modified it from mp4 to m4a?

Code: [Select]
@encdir@\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.5 -if "@source@" -of "@dest1@.m4a"
set compilation=false
if "$cdartist$"=="Various" set compliation=true
@encdir@\AtomicParsley.exe "@dest1@.m4a" --writeBack --compilation %compilation% --artist "@artist@" --album "@album@" --tracknum "@track@/@numtracks@" --title "@title@" --year "@year@" --genre "@genre@" --comment "@comment@; id: @freedbid@"


It works when I tested it with REACT.  Also, I would post this question in the REACT thread as it is more related to something Synthetic Soul could answer than Nero.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LI-Greg on 2006-07-05 03:24:15
Have you tried the setup used in the mp4 REACT config and just modified it from mp4 to m4a?

Code: [Select]
@encdir@\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.5 -if "@source@" -of "@dest1@.m4a"
set compilation=false
if "$cdartist$"=="Various" set compliation=true
@encdir@\AtomicParsley.exe "@dest1@.m4a" --writeBack --compilation %compilation% --artist "@artist@" --album "@album@" --tracknum "@track@/@numtracks@" --title "@title@" --year "@year@" --genre "@genre@" --comment "@comment@; id: @freedbid@"


It works when I tested it with REACT.  Also, I would post this question in the REACT thread as it is more related to something Synthetic Soul could answer than Nero.



Yes, I did try the mp4 setup that comes with REACT.

I will try the other forum, thanks!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rbrito on 2006-07-05 06:52:40
Could we have a native i386/Linux version of the encoder?

For better "logistics" for Ahead/Nero, I think that a statically linked version of the executables would be adequate.

Just for your information, I'm using Debian GNU/Linux testing (etch) on my machine.


Thanks in advance, Rogério.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LI-Greg on 2006-07-05 17:17:03

Have you tried the setup used in the mp4 REACT config and just modified it from mp4 to m4a?

Code: [Select]
@encdir@\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.5 -if "@source@" -of "@dest1@.m4a"
set compilation=false
if "$cdartist$"=="Various" set compliation=true
@encdir@\AtomicParsley.exe "@dest1@.m4a" --writeBack --compilation %compilation% --artist "@artist@" --album "@album@" --tracknum "@track@/@numtracks@" --title "@title@" --year "@year@" --genre "@genre@" --comment "@comment@; id: @freedbid@"


It works when I tested it with REACT.  Also, I would post this question in the REACT thread as it is more related to something Synthetic Soul could answer than Nero.



Yes, I did try the mp4 setup that comes with REACT.

I will try the other forum, thanks!




Actually... this doesn't work either.

If I substitute Atomicparsley with the Neroaactag.exe it works.
When I use AtomicParsley to tag, I get errors on playback as someone else in this thread did.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: arpeggio on 2006-07-05 18:05:11
If I substitute Atomicparsley with the Neroaactag.exe it works.
When I use AtomicParsley to tag, I get errors on playback as someone else in this thread did.


Then why not stick to NeroAacEnc + NeroAacTag ? They're a great couple together.

I also use REACT and all of my M4A config files are with NeroAacEnc + NeroAacTag.
Works like a charm!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LI-Greg on 2006-07-05 19:04:23

If I substitute Atomicparsley with the Neroaactag.exe it works.
When I use AtomicParsley to tag, I get errors on playback as someone else in this thread did.


Then why not stick to NeroAacEnc + NeroAacTag ? They're a great couple together.

I also use REACT and all of my M4A config files are with NeroAacEnc + NeroAacTag.
Works like a charm!


Ah, but that's the issue, when I use NeroAacEnc and Nero AacTag, I get The file name in the title, the track # in the aritist field, and all the rest are blank.

Otherwise, it's great.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Gow on 2006-07-06 03:50:23
Ah, but that's the issue, when I use NeroAacEnc and Nero AacTag, I get The file name in the title, the track # in the aritist field, and all the rest are blank.

Otherwise, it's great.



May I suggest an alternative to REACT that I just tried.

Mareo: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=44559&hl= (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44559&hl=)

Works with all the major codecs, mp3, mpc, ogg, aac (iTunes and Nero), wavpack, ape, flac...

Try that out and see if it works better as an all-in-one solution for you.

It can also be setup to be used with more than one CD ripper.

- Gow
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LI-Greg on 2006-07-06 03:58:11

Ah, but that's the issue, when I use NeroAacEnc and Nero AacTag, I get The file name in the title, the track # in the aritist field, and all the rest are blank.

Otherwise, it's great.



May I suggest an alternative to REACT that I just tried.

Mareo: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....topic=44559&hl= (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44559&hl=)

Works with all the major codecs, mp3, mpc, ogg, aac (iTunes and Nero), wavpack, ape, flac...

Try that out and see if it works better as an all-in-one solution for you.

It can also be setup to be used with more than one CD ripper.

- Gow



Just when I was getting the hang of REACT. 

LOL

but thanks, I will give it a try.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rbrito on 2006-07-08 10:45:06
Linux is actually on the way


Hi there, Ivan & Co.

I know that the post above is is more than two months ago, and, just as a reminder  , could you release a Linux version, which, like you said, "is on the way"?


Thanks, Rogério.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-07-08 11:51:18

Linux is actually on the way


Hi there, Ivan & Co.

I know that the post above is is more than two months ago, and, just as a reminder  , could you release a Linux version, which, like you said, "is on the way"? 


Thanks, Rogério.


Each time someone whines, programmer motivation for this particular project drops
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rbrito on 2006-07-09 08:49:04

Linux is actually on the way

[Ivan] (...) could you release a Linux version, which, like you said, "is on the way"? 


Each time someone whines, programmer motivation for this particular project drops


The real intention of that post was not to be interpreted as someone "whining".

I was, more likely, thinking that my post would be interpreted as "hi, Nero folk, your product has attracted the attention of people not only from the Windows world, but also from other Operating Systems (*nix, MacOS X etc)".

Hope this clears any potential confusion that my previous message might have generated.


Regards, Rogério.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Jebus on 2006-07-11 17:41:44
This is a fantastic tool, thanks so much for your work!

I have noticed a potential bug...

Using just "-q 0.5" (or nothing at all) should provide a low-complexity file, around 160 kbit/s. At least this is what iTunes says I'm getting.

Using "-q 0.5 -lc" seems to be giving a file at around 220 kbit/s! Why is it any different? Aren't they both LC profile?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: haregoo on 2006-07-11 21:46:47
@Jebus

This is intentional design. Check this post (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44283&st=50).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jimmy69 on 2006-07-13 12:53:58
Just wondering how everyone finds out what the command lines are for different codecs.  I just can't figure out what im meant to type.  The main reason I would like to know what to do is because I coudn't encode into the new nero aac using eac.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: LaserSokrates on 2006-07-13 13:09:54
In most cases, it is
Code: [Select]
path/to/your/encoder --help
or
Code: [Select]
path/to/your/encoder -help
at least when on *nix, on Win, it's similiar, but with backslashes.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: arpeggio on 2006-07-13 13:39:21
Just wondering how everyone finds out what the command lines are for different codecs.  I just can't figure out what im meant to type.  The main reason I would like to know what to do is because I coudn't encode into the new nero aac using eac.

If you want NeroAac to do both encoding and tagging, you should do the following:

Be sure to have <NeroAacEnc.exe> and <NeroAacTag.exe> in the C:\Program Files\Exact Audio Copy folder. You may have your own preferences to store these files, then change the program paths in de codes accordingly.

Select User Defined Encoder and point the path for the encoder to  C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe
Set file extension to  .m4a

In the commandline box you should enter
Code: [Select]
/c C:\"Program Files\Exact Audio Copy"\Nero\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && C:\"Program Files\Exact Audio Copy"\Nero\neroaactag.exe %d -meta:artist="%a" -meta:album="%g" -meta:track="%n" -meta:title="%t" -meta:genre="%m" -meta:year="%y"


You should be careful with quotes in the program paths. If the program path contains spaces, you have to put this part of the program path between quotes. <cmd.exe> needs thie quotes in the right place otherwise it will not work.

The commandline above will produce .m4a files with a quality level -q 0.5  You may change this number to your needs.

Cheers!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: woody_woodward on 2006-07-19 01:20:45
I finally got around to checking out this encoder.  I could not believe my ears regarding how good the sound was.  This has been my first experience with this format.  Why, oh why, isn't there more hardware and software support for this format?  I've been sticking with MP3 because it plays on everything, everywhere.  But now....  As Jimmy Carter would say "I have lust in my heart."
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Jebus on 2006-07-19 01:26:36
I finally got around to checking out this encoder.  I could not believe my ears regarding how good the sound was.  This has been my first experience with this format.  Why, oh why, isn't there more hardware and software support for this format?  I've been sticking with MP3 because it plays on everything, everywhere.  But now....  As Jimmy Carter would say "I have lust in my heart."


Probably because, as you put it, everyone has been sticking to MP3. Anyhow - get an iPod!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: optimus on 2006-07-21 18:22:55
As this is not an open source encoder, I really hope there are can be more builds for various CPUs (esp. build for AthlonXP).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: bubka on 2006-07-21 19:10:38
As this is not an open source encoder, I really hope there are can be more builds for various CPUs (esp. build for AthlonXP).

doesn't later AthlongXPs support SSE2?

or are those just the first K8s

optimus: nice work on mediacoder, keep up the avi to dvd mpeg2 conversion, it seems to be a pretty fast transcoder so far!!!
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Jebus on 2006-07-21 20:09:45

As this is not an open source encoder, I really hope there are can be more builds for various CPUs (esp. build for AthlonXP).

doesn't later AthlongXPs support SSE2?

or are those just the first K8s

optimus: nice work on mediacoder, keep up the avi to dvd mpeg2 conversion, it seems to be a pretty fast transcoder so far!!!


Athlon XP added SSE (vs vanilla Athlon), but it was the first Athlon 64s that included SSE2.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-07-23 09:51:45
As this is not an open source encoder, I really hope there are can be more builds for various CPUs (esp. build for AthlonXP).


Just use the non-SSE2 build.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sagittaire on 2006-07-31 12:16:04
Just use the non-SSE2 build.


Your non-SSE build is buggy: lc, he, hev2 switch doesn't work with all RC mode (quality, bitrate, 2 pass). The output file is always he-aac output.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-07-31 16:32:39
Quote
Your non-SSE build is buggy: lc, he, hev2 switch doesn't work with all RC mode (quality, bitrate, 2 pass). The output file is always he-aac output.


Cannot reproduce / user error.

Please provide more information.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Maurits on 2006-07-31 17:35:30
Your non-SSE build is buggy: lc, he, hev2 switch doesn't work with all RC mode (quality, bitrate, 2 pass). The output file is always he-aac output.

IIRC there is a bug in the latest Foobar Final reporting many AAC files as HE-AAC, even if they aren't. It's fixed in the beta's.

How did you test it?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Sagittaire on 2006-08-01 08:34:44
Quote

Your non-SSE build is buggy: lc, he, hev2 switch doesn't work with all RC mode (quality, bitrate, 2 pass). The output file is always he-aac output.


Cannot reproduce / user error.

Please provide more information.


I found the problem:

CoreAAC detect always AAC+SBR stream but libfaad2 detect correct stream type (lc, he or hev2)

It's really curious because CoreAAC detect correctly LC or HE with
- your previous version of neroAacEnc.exe
- your old Nero AAC encoder and all the other AAC encoder (QuickTime, Faac, winamp ... etc etc)
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: menno on 2006-08-01 09:59:01

Quote

Your non-SSE build is buggy: lc, he, hev2 switch doesn't work with all RC mode (quality, bitrate, 2 pass). The output file is always he-aac output.


Cannot reproduce / user error.

Please provide more information.


I found the problem:

CoreAAC detect always AAC+SBR stream but libfaad2 detect correct stream type (lc, he or hev2)

It's really curious because CoreAAC detect correctly LC or HE with
- your previous version of neroAacEnc.exe
- your old Nero AAC encoder and all the other AAC encoder (QuickTime, Faac, winamp ... etc etc)


FAAD2 handles the extended audioSpecificConfig incorrectly.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Artefacto on 2006-08-09 03:05:31
I replaced the May 1 build and regretted it:

Code: [Select]
C:\Programas\allow\Exact Audio Copy>naac -lc -br 140 -2pass -if "X:\ARQ\Strappin
g Young Lad - City [1997]\Strapping Young Lad - 01 - Velvet Kevorkian.wav" -of "
X:\ARQ\Strapping Young Lad - City [1997]\Strapping Young Lad - 01 - Velvet Kevor
kian.mp4"
*************************************************************
*                                                          *
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder *
*  Copyright © 2006 Nero AG                              *
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide                            *
*                                                          *
*  Package build date: May 26 2006                          *
*                                                          *
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.  *
*                                                          *
*************************************************************

First pass:  processed 76 seconds...
ERROR: could not open AAC encoder

C:\Programas\allow\Exact Audio Copy>naac -lc -br 140 -if "X:\ARQ\Strapping Young
 Lad - City [1997]\Strapping Young Lad - 01 - Velvet Kevorkian.wav" -of "X:\ARQ\
Strapping Young Lad - City [1997]\Strapping Young Lad - 01 - Velvet Kevorkian.mp
4"
*************************************************************
*                                                          *
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder *
*  Copyright © 2006 Nero AG                              *
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide                            *
*                                                          *
*  Package build date: May 26 2006                          *
*                                                          *
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.  *
*                                                          *
*************************************************************

ERROR: could not open AAC encoder

C:\Programas\allow\Exact Audio Copy>naac -lc -q 0.3 -if "X:\ARQ\Strapping Young
Lad - City [1997]\Strapping Young Lad - 01 - Velvet Kevorkian.wav" -of "X:\ARQ\S
trapping Young Lad - City [1997]\Strapping Young Lad - 01 - Velvet Kevorkian.mp4
"
*************************************************************
*                                                          *
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder *
*  Copyright © 2006 Nero AG                              *
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide                            *
*                                                          *
*  Package build date: May 26 2006                          *
*                                                          *
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.  *
*                                                          *
*************************************************************

ERROR: Could not create temporary file
-----> (comment) There was a correct output file though

C:\Programas\allow\Exact Audio Copy>naac -br 140 -2pass -if "X:\ARQ\Strapping Yo
ung Lad - City [1997]\Strapping Young Lad - 01 - Velvet Kevorkian.wav" -of "X:\A
RQ\Strapping Young Lad - City [1997]\Strapping Young Lad - 01 - Velvet Kevorkian
.mp4"
*************************************************************
*                                                          *
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder *
*  Copyright © 2006 Nero AG                              *
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide                            *
*                                                          *
*  Package build date: May 26 2006                          *
*                                                          *
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.  *
*                                                          *
*************************************************************

ERROR: no valid SBR configuration found
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Garf on 2006-08-09 07:10:06
I replaced the May 1 build and regretted it:


Why? I am sure the May 1 version fails in a similar way.

The error is the user not reading the manual.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: shackbu on 2006-08-10 01:20:49
Select User Defined Encoder and point the path for the encoder to  C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe
Set file extension to  .m4a

In the commandline box you should enter
Code: [Select]
/c C:\"Program Files\Exact Audio Copy"\Nero\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && C:\"Program Files\Exact Audio Copy"\Nero\neroaactag.exe %d -meta:artist="%a" -meta:album="%g" -meta:track="%n" -meta:title="%t" -meta:genre="%m" -meta:year="%y"




I am using the command line specified above which appears to produce the file correctly; however the file has not tags and when I try to play it with foobar 0.9.1 i get the following error:

Code: [Select]
Unable to open item for playback (Error parsing MP4 file : invalid or missing mvhd data):


followed by the path to the file.

Any ideas for a relative noob?

Thanks
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Artefacto on 2006-08-10 17:44:39
I replaced the May 1 build and regretted it:


Why? I am sure the May 1 version fails in a similar way.

The error is the user not reading the manual.


I'm afraid that comment wasn't particularly useful. By manual do you mean "-help"? I had a foobar diskwrite preset (2 pass) that used to work. I didn't use it for a while and it's possible that something was accidentally changed in the interim, but I definitely don't get this "ERROR: could not open AAC encoder", esp when it works anyway...
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rootkit on 2006-08-11 11:46:31
Quote
neroaacenc -if mvi.wav -of mvi.mp4 -he -q 0.15
*************************************************************
*                                                          *
*  Nero Digital Audio Reference MPEG-4 & 3GPP Audio Encoder *
*  Copyright © 2006 Nero AG                              *
*  All Rights Reserved Worldwide                            *
*                                                          *
*  Package build date: May 26 2006                          *
*                                                          *
*  See -help for a complete list of available parameters.  *
*                                                          *
*************************************************************

Assertion failed: (m_size <= (u_int64_t)0xFFFFFFFF), file .\mp4atom.cpp, line 712

This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way.
Please contact the application's support team for more information.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: riderforever on 2006-08-20 23:01:09
Select User Defined Encoder and point the path for the encoder to  C:\Windows\System32\cmd.exe
Set file extension to  .m4a

In the commandline box you should enter
Code: [Select]
/c C:\"Program Files\Exact Audio Copy"\Nero\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && C:\"Program Files\Exact Audio Copy"\Nero\neroaactag.exe %d -meta:artist="%a" -meta:album="%g" -meta:track="%n" -meta:title="%t" -meta:genre="%m" -meta:year="%y"




I am using the command line specified above which appears to produce the file correctly; however the file has not tags and when I try to play it with foobar 0.9.1 i get the following error:

Code: [Select]
Unable to open item for playback (Error parsing MP4 file : invalid or missing mvhd data):


followed by the path to the file.

Any ideas for a relative noob?

Thanks



Same problem for me. I'm using EAC with those options, and when I try to open the m4a with foobar 0.9.3.1 I got ->

Code: [Select]
Unable to open item for playback (Data truncated)


Notice that if I use Foobar to convert a wav into a m4a using neroAacEnc I can play it with success, and that the file which Foobar can't open can be played by iTunes without any problem.

Is there a bug in foobar, maybe? 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: foosion on 2006-08-21 12:52:00
Please make sure that EAC is not configured to write ID3v2 tags to the converted files.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: riderforever on 2006-08-21 15:55:04
there was the "Add ID3 tag" option selected!   

now it works fine!
Thank you foosion, you're the man 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rmittal on 2006-09-06 08:06:43
Hi, I just downloaded the neroAacEnc encoder and used it to encode (transcode) some music files (which was previously encoded to mp3 (lame) with the option as V0 (320kbs vbr)) with the Q=0.5 switch.

I have two questions regarding neroAacEnc :-

First one is that what would be better for transcoding the above files (I want to transfer them to my walkman phone so want to save some space and I don't have the looseless format of the above) lame with the option V2 (original encoding with LAME) or neroAacEnc with the option Q=0.5 as both of them give roughly the same files sizes.

My second question is when I encode a file using neroAacEnc with option Q=0.5, I get a resulting bitrate of  175kbps for a particular file. Now if I again encode the original file with the option ABR 2 pass encoding with the bitrate of 175kbps, will both the encoded file have the same quality, if not which file should sound better.

Thanks.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-09-07 05:43:01
Hi, I just downloaded the neroAacEnc encoder and used it to encode (transcode) some music files (which was previously encoded to mp3 (lame) with the option as V0 (320kbs vbr)) with the Q=0.5 switch.

I have two questions regarding neroAacEnc :-

First one is that what would be better for transcoding the above files (I want to transfer them to my walkman phone so want to save some space and I don't have the looseless format of the above) lame with the option V2 (original encoding with LAME) or neroAacEnc with the option Q=0.5 as both of them give roughly the same files sizes.

My second question is when I encode a file using neroAacEnc with option Q=0.5, I get a resulting bitrate of  175kbps for a particular file. Now if I again encode the original file with the option ABR 2 pass encoding with the bitrate of 175kbps, will both the encoded file have the same quality, if not which file should sound better.

Thanks.


the Q settings use the psymodel to get consistant quality throughout the song at varying bitrates.  2-pass encoding with a -Q switch is pointless and should not be used.  Where 2-pass encoding IS useful, however, if when going for a certain bitrate using the -br switch.  However, while the bitrate will average around your chosen value, the quality will vary.  Going with a -Q switch will give you theoretically better quality; whether you can tell the difference is another story. 
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rmittal on 2006-09-07 07:42:52
Any answers for my first question.

Thanks
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: stephanV on 2006-09-07 07:57:22
I think you will have to try that out for yourself. There is not many supporting evidence that either one would be better for transcoding.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-09-07 13:06:35
Any answers for my first question.

Thanks


I have an iPod, so I personally would use Nero AAC.  However, MP3 is more compatable across the board with all kinds of players, and recent listening tests show that the quality of AAC and LAME MP3 at portable-type bitrates are rather comparable at this point in time.  Not sure if there's much evidence right now which format is "better" for transcoding.  Just give both a try with your ears and see which one you like more.  They should honestly be rather interchangable at the bitrates you're going for.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: rmittal on 2006-09-08 07:26:14
I think I will use Nero AAC for the time being.

Anyway thanks to all who helped.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Tinu on 2006-09-16 21:41:12
I was testing out the new gapless playback support for the "old" 5G iPod (you get this with upgrading to iTunes 7 and then letting iTunes upgrade the iPod firmware to version 1.2).

Results:
- When I import a CD anew with iTunes (to format AAC), I get perfect gapless playback on the iPod (as far as I can hear).
- When I import the CD with EAC / Nero AAC encoder (1.002) and then load the files via iTunes to my iPod, the playback is almost, but not entirely, gapless. It's easy to tell where the track boundaries are, since there seems to be a few milliseconds of silence in-between.

Does anyone have an idea as to why "perfect" gapless playback on an iPod doesn't seem to be possible with the Nero AAC encoder?

Thanks! Martin
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: [JAZ] on 2006-09-17 11:23:58
You should find comments and basically, that what you say is true in this thread :

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....c=48231&hl= (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=48231&hl=)

It is not a flaw in the nero encoder. It is a non-feature of the iTunes 7/iPod. Basically, it is using its own tags to identify correctly the gap and skip it. Creating  a file with iTunes does add this information (Because it is available at the time of creation), in Nero, it just can guess it, and it seems it either doesn't do it, or does a bad guessing.
For LAME mp3 files, there are reports by users that its gapless information is recognized by iTunes. Seems that it is in iPod too, but i can't assert that.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Tinu on 2006-09-17 15:09:28
Quote
' date='Sep 17 2006, 11:23' post='431905']
Creating  a file with iTunes does add this information (Because it is available at the time of creation), ...

Does this imply that I can never have perfect gapless if I do a track by track rip and then encoding (such as EAC does)? Does this also imply that I can't rip a gapless CD track by track to a lossless format (e.g. flac), and later encode to say AAC and still get "perfect" gapless playback? Because in both cases the "time of creation" is long past.

Or is it - in the end - a matter of reverse-engineering the iTunes private tags for gapless and adding them to the Nero encoder (or tagger)? If so I would of course like to see this happen sooner or later  .

It's not only that I trust the Nero encoder more than the Apple one, it is also that I trust EAC (plus AccurateRip) much more than iTunes.

Thanks! Martin

P.S. If I use plain EAC/Lame track by track (i.e. none of the gapless features of Lame, since they don't work in track by track mode) I get - as far as I can hear - perfect gapless playback on my iPod (I didn't test iTunes).
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: [JAZ] on 2006-09-17 19:10:18
flac files are lossless, which implies it reconstructs the data as it was when it was input, exactly. If the cd is ripped correctly, there's no difference between cd -> flac -> other and cd -> other. So yes, you can have gapless even if encoded to flac first.

hopefully, the problem with iTunes gapless tags will be temporary, and a common method will be choosen soon.

About your experience with lame encodings... they understand the lame gapless information.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: riderforever on 2006-10-23 08:48:34

We will issue a new update in the few days, which will among other things also include a command line tagger.


Will that commandline tagger enable the single mp4 feature such as CUE sheet, album art, etc?  The feature stated in the first post of this thread is:

"* Store Entire Audio Album in a Single .mp4 File with all the Features of an Audio CD embedded inside, but at a fraction of the space!"


I've tried this function using foobar: I've selected a bounch of flac files and then
Convert -> Convert to album images with Cuesheets or Chapters

It works fine and it's recognized from foobar, but once importing that file into iTunes 7.0.1 it appears as a single file without any chapter. Anyway I think that's a known issue.

But the question is: how to embed album art in that file? Do you think that format is going to be implemented in some mobile device (like Sony Ericsson Walkman series)? That could be a way to gain a gapless playback with devices that don't support it natively.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: SweetLow on 2006-10-27 19:05:54
Win 9x support for ver. 1.0.0.2
http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/neroaac_9x.zip (http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/neroaac_9x.zip)
It will be better if Nero developers make this job, but...
Nonetheless, thanks to them for they effort in free tools creation.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Wedge on 2007-01-02 16:15:26
Any news regarding a linux version?
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: j7n on 2007-01-02 21:07:48
Quote
Win 9x support for ver. 1.0.0.2
http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/neroaac_9x.zip (http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/neroaac_9x.zip)

404 Not Found.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: artooro on 2007-01-02 22:08:32
A Linux version would be absolutely wonderful. OSX has Apple's encoder, Windows has Apple's and Nero, all Linux has right now is faac which kind of sucks right now.
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: Antonski on 2007-01-03 11:39:33
Quote
Win 9x support for ver. 1.0.0.2
http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/neroaac_9x.zip (http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/neroaac_9x.zip)

404 Not Found.


Take it from here:
http://people.overclockers.ru/SweetLow/record4 (http://people.overclockers.ru/SweetLow/record4)
Or use Google
~
Title: Nero Releases FREE Reference Quality MPEG-4 Audio Encoder
Post by: SweetLow on 2007-02-12 18:59:15
http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/neroaac_9x.zip (http://sweetlow.at.tut.by/download/neroaac_9x.zip)
Win 9x support.

Updated for Version 1.0.7.0 - 2007-02-12