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Topic: Lossless Playback (Read 14808 times) previous topic - next topic
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Lossless Playback

Hi All

I want to start a discussion about routing the music-data lossless to your stereo.

As many of you I use a lossless codec (FLAC, ripped with EAC).

But what is lossless if I can't be sure to get from Winamp lossless to my external Stereo-D/A-Converter.

I'm using a soundcard with optical out to my DAC. But I'm not sure if Windows change the signal (e.g. in the Mixer) all the way from my HD --> Winamp --> Soundcard.

I also know that many soundcards - even if they provide a digital out - change things in the signal (resampling, digital volume leveling, other filters, ....:-(

Does anyone have an idea to get lossless (trough Winamp) to an external DAC.

I would prefer a solution for longer distances (e.g. Ethernet or USB).
Let's say a Ethernet-Soundcard or a USB-Soundcard with a perferct Digital out (SPDIF)

I searched the web for some devices. Found M-Audio (USB-SPDIF-Converter). But this thing looks quite cheap ....?

Or the "Squeezebox". But this cannot be used with winamp as master player.

Looking forward to your ideas

Olaf

Lossless Playback

Reply #1 –
Your requirements are a bit confusing. You want a long distance solution, but yet you want to maintain control at the PC. That doesn't make much sense. If you were in your living room downstairs, that idea would force you to run upstairs to the PC room every time you wanted to change the song. But, if that's how you want it, try the JVC RX-D702 - a home theater receiver it comes with a USB dongle that installs itself as a generic USB speaker on your PC, and wirelessly transmits audio output to the living room. Because it outputs the PC audio, it works for any PC application, period.

The best solution, in my opinion, remains the Sonos Digital Music System, which supports MP3, AAC, WMA, OGG and FLAC and has a wireless color LCD controller, thus enabling you to control the audio from anywhere in the house, period. It also supports playlists. Sounds like you have the cash for it, so check it out.
EAC>1)fb2k>LAME3.99 -V 0 --vbr-new>WMP12 2)MAC-Extra High

Lossless Playback

Reply #2 –
Quote
But what is lossless if I can't be sure to get from Winamp lossless to my external Stereo-D/A-Converter.

I also know that many soundcards - even if they provide a digital out - change things in the signal (resampling, digital volume leveling, other filters, ....:-(

Does anyone have an idea to get lossless (trough Winamp) to an external DAC.


Olaf
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



You are correct in that Windows changes the output with something called Kmixer. What you want is Bit-Perfect. Bit-perfect can bypass Kmixer using either ASIO or Kernel Streaming both of which are supported in Winamp using plugins. Your soundcard will have to support bit perfect and there are a few cards out there that support this. The one I use and probably one of the more popular is the Chaintech AV710 which is not only a solid card but retails for around $23.00 at [a href="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=29-120-103&depa=1]Newegg[/url]. There is a thread over at AVS forums Bit Perfect Thread That goes into detail on how to configure bitperfect using Winamp or Foobar and which sound cards support it along with a much better explanation of bypassing the Kmixer, etc.

I have been using ASIO bit perfect output with FLAC files for the last 2+ years and am extremely happy with it.
 

Lossless Playback

Reply #3 –
He want bit-perfect playback, tried kernel streaming?

May want to google this sound card Chaintech AV710, affordable

Lossless Playback

Reply #4 –
Hi LanJAckal

Quote
Your requirements are a bit confusing.


In the first momen, it sounds confusing. But it's not.
My keyboard and the monitor is in the living-room. But the PC is at the other side of the wall (because there you can't hear the fan and the Harddrives.)

Now I need a cable (or wireless) all around the room the get to the stereo.

Thanks for the link to jvc. But it's not what I'm looking for. JVC is a multichannel receiver including DACs. Not High end at all.

Just looking for a usb-2-sfdif converter or ethernet instead of usb. Then any DAC of the HiFi segment can be used.

Maybe Sonos is doing this. What do you mean with "it supports playlists". Can I just use Winamp and use the Sonos-thins as an external Soundcard?

Olaf

Lossless Playback

Reply #5 –
Step 1: I checked the "bit perfect Thread" and installed the ASIO driver-winamp-plugin to bypass the mixer. Worked so far, but couldn't proove the "bit-trueness" yet.

Lossless Playback

Reply #6 –
Quote
Just looking for a usb-2-sfdif converter or ethernet instead of usb. Then any DAC of the HiFi segment can be used.

Maybe Sonos is doing this. What do you mean with "it supports playlists". Can I just use Winamp and use the Sonos-thins as an external Soundcard?


Wow, you just dismissed one of the best multichannel receivers on the market as not being high end. Stringent requirements indeed. Visit Sonos' website (link in my previous post) for information on the system. It streams the data from the PC, so the PC never actually touches the audio - the Sonos system does all the playback work. You might want to pay close attention to the specs - I'm not too sure if the system is what hardcore audiophiles would term hi-fi. As for playlists, it supports .m3u, .pls and .wpl listings (stored on the PC), thus allowing you to play all your Winamp playlists on the device.
EAC>1)fb2k>LAME3.99 -V 0 --vbr-new>WMP12 2)MAC-Extra High

Lossless Playback

Reply #7 –
Hi again

I really don't want to offend anybody. I'm sure the JVC is an excellent device. It's just not what I'm looking for, because it's multi-channel with integrated DACs. I just need 2 channels and therefore want to spent the whole money in 2 excellent channels only.

Winamp-Sonos: I'm not so familar with these playlists. If Sonos uses this playlist, does this mean, that I have to make playlists in Winamp and starting playback in Sonos? - Then it's not what I'm looking for.

But If it means that I can start playing, stopping, etc. in Winamp and use Sonos as output-device it may be what I'm looking for. This is because it's very comfortable to operate on a normal-sized-screen where also the album-art from the actual song is shown, etc.

Yesterday, I wrote an Email to Sonos to find out, if their digital output is "bit-true" (e.g. makes no further signal processing like resampling,....,  if the volume is set to max... Waiting for the answer next week......


I browsed the web and found this: Cosecant USB DAC

It's kind of an external USB Soundcard with integrated Tube-DAC. According to the description, it's refuced to the max and therfore no extra signal processing takes place.
Is there someone around here having experence with these devices?


Olaf

Lossless Playback

Reply #8 –
Quote
...
My keyboard and the monitor is in the living-room. But the PC is at the other side of the wall (because there you can't hear the fan and the Harddrives.)
...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=341337"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Keyboard is maybe wireless, but I suppose you have a cable running from the PC to the monitor, i.e. from one room to the other (a passage in the wall??). Can't u run along it another cable (digital or analog as you prefer) for the audio signal?

Sergio

EDIT: A quick look at the Cosecant USB DAC made me shivering... smells "Audiophile" from a mile...
Sergio
M-Audio Delta AP + Revox B150 + (JBL 4301B | Sennheiser Amperior | Sennheiser HD598)

Lossless Playback

Reply #9 –
Hi Sergio

Quote
Can't u run along it another cable (digital or analog as you prefer) for the audio signal?


Yes, I made a made passage. But the location of the Monitor and the stereo is not the same.

Quote
EDIT: A quick look at the Cosecant USB DAC made me shivering... smells "Audiophile" from a mile...


Yes, it does smell Audiophile

Unfortunetly there is still a gap between audiophiles and "pc-philes". Seems to be a gap similar to analog-fans (vynil) and digital-fans (cd). (But this is another discussion)

The point is to get both world together (all the possibility of pc-convenience) with the paranoid audiophile "bit-true" requirement.
Thats what I want.

Olaf

Lossless Playback

Reply #10 –
The Cosecant USB thingy's maker has some other amps on his site that are rip-offs of other people's DIY designs I've seen elsewhere.

It sounds like a usb soundcard, stripped of its casing and with rewritten firmware..

Lossless Playback

Reply #11 –
Look at this. Interesting? I think there are wireless alternative as well. Try google "spdif extender" or "AES/EBU extender".

Sergio
Sergio
M-Audio Delta AP + Revox B150 + (JBL 4301B | Sennheiser Amperior | Sennheiser HD598)

Lossless Playback

Reply #13 –
Quote
Hi,

Check One Transport to Rule Them All
http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/one-tra...le-them-all.php

Audiophiles Embrace the Hard Drive
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/har.../harddrive.html

Also, maybe You should drop Winamp.

regards,
Matjaz[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=341665"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


From the second link:

Quote
The main problem with all CD playback to my ears is the lack of natural life and energy. Sure there are dynamics but it is a sort of manufactured wooden dynamic that after a while has my body tensing up rather than relaxing into the music.


Quote
AA contributor Ralph (identified with an 'M' as a manufacturer) had this to say: "We built a transport that reads the CD (every last bit on it too) and stores it on hard drive. The machine runs under Linux with none of the latency issues that other computer-based servers have.


Quote
Good old reliable PCI connection sounds great to me especially when vibration damping and appropriate shelf/power cords are used for the PC (as strange as it sounds).
(emphasis is mine)


'nough for me... 
Sergio
M-Audio Delta AP + Revox B150 + (JBL 4301B | Sennheiser Amperior | Sennheiser HD598)

Lossless Playback

Reply #14 –
Quote
Step 1: I checked the "bit perfect Thread" and installed the ASIO driver-winamp-plugin to bypass the mixer. Worked so far, but couldn't proove the "bit-trueness" yet.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Cmachine,

If you want to test Bit-Perfect output one way is to play DTS file and if your getting Bit-Perfect you will hear the audio if not it will soundlike white Noise. Ive got a link to some DTS below.......

[a href="http://www.kellyindustries.com/sounds.html]DTS Files I[/url]

DTS Files II

Lossless Playback

Reply #15 –
Quote
If you want to test Bit-Perfect output one way is to play DTS file and if your getting Bit-Perfect you will hear the audio if not it will soundlike white Noise. Ive got a link to some DTS below.......


That's right, and here you can read someone who confirms that it works with Winamp and the ASIO plugin, while others reply how it could be done on Linux as well.

While on the subject, and since you know to be knowledgeable, which D/A equipment would you suggest for taking the s/pdif output?  I mean decent quality, but none of the "snake-oil" audiophile stuff (no offense intended, but to me any DAC more expensive than an Arcam CD player is most likely snake-oil).  Or would you recommend some A/V amp with a quality DAC for its s/pdif input?

TIA

Lossless Playback

Reply #16 –
It seems what you really need is an Apple Airport Express that supports FLAC and Winamp instead of Apple Lossless and iTunes...  regretably, there is no beast.  You want a big remote digital output.

If you can handle SlimServer instead of Winamp, the Squeezebox is probably as close as you get.  Wireless.  FLAC friendly.

I also know many that stream lossless to their high-end stereos using Roku SoundBridge M2000.  But they either use AIFF (uncompressed) with iTunes or WMA Lossless with Windows Media Connect.

But both of these solutions are really aimed at decoupling you from your PC... not just remote audio jacks.

Lossless Playback

Reply #17 –
I still think that the Gefen Digital Audio Extender is the right solution for you.

With this you'll have an application-independent extension of your digital audio card SPDIF output.

I've seen that Geffen also makes DVI or VGA extenders for your LCD monitor in case you want to move it to a further location.

This is just theory, anyway, as I don't have any first hand experience with Geffen's products. Anybody does?

Sergio
Sergio
M-Audio Delta AP + Revox B150 + (JBL 4301B | Sennheiser Amperior | Sennheiser HD598)

Lossless Playback

Reply #18 –
i didn't get from your post if you are also looking for an DAC or if you already have one. if you need one you should check out the rme adi2 (www.rme-audio.de). it supports AES/EBU. i use AES/EBU connection from my soundcard to the dac in my audio room (of course bitperfect with foobar+KS over m-audio revo)

works excellent with 35meters of cable

Lossless Playback

Reply #19 –
I would use this external soundcard: Terratec Aureon 7.1 FireWire review at Tom's Hardware Guide and place it in a convenient spot between the PC and the amp. It is a high quality external soundcard/DAC with a remote control, a headphone amp and even a phono preamp.

The maximum length of a standard IEEE 1394 FireWire segment is 4.5 meters (15 feet), but up to 16 cables can be daisy chained with FireWire hubs or other FireWire devices.

Lossless Playback

Reply #20 –
Quote
i didn't get from your post if you are also looking for an DAC or if you already have one. if you need one you should check out the rme adi2 (www.rme-audio.de). it supports AES/EBU. i use AES/EBU connection from my soundcard to the dac in my audio room (of course bitperfect with foobar+KS over m-audio revo)

works excellent with 35meters of cable
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=341979"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks very much, this is the kind of thing I'm thinking about buying.... at aroud 550 Eur I think it fits my budget.

Now, how do you think it would compare to the DACs inside your average "hifi" A/V amps  from Yamaha / Denon / JVC etc?  (aside from the fact that the adi2 seems to be plain vanilla stereo and doesn't do any of the multichannel stuff like DTS; not that I really care in my case).

Lossless Playback

Reply #21 –
Check out www.xitel.com

I used Hi-Fi link which transfers from USB to analog output. The Pro Hi-Fi link also has digital output.

I now use Slimdevices Squeezebox with Slimserver. The Squeezebox has digital outputs.

Lossless Playback

Reply #22 –
Hi all

Thanks very much for all your answers and links.   

It will take a while to read all the links and answers you sent to me...

I'll let you know what I think of all the devices

Best regards
Olaf

Lossless Playback

Reply #23 –
I tried to play this DTS-File with winamp.

Just noise. With or without the ASIO Plugin for Winamp.
Can anyone explain me whats the thing behind "bit-true" and this file????
Is it that if it's not bit true, that something is "scambled" in this file that the output is just noise? How does this work?

Assume there is all bit-true to my DAC. And the DAC is a classical oversamplig Device (e.g. 8x oversampling). Will I hear noise or music with DTS?



Quote
While on the subject, and since you know to be knowledgeable, which D/A equipment would you suggest for taking the s/pdif output?



Hi f2000
There are tons of DAC's when you browse the web. It's very difficult to recommend a specific device because I should have listened to all of them to make a fair recommendation - and of course, I didn't.

It also depends of your needs if you want an amp with integrated DAC or a CD-Player with additional digital in to use its DAC or if you want stereo only or 7.1 or 5.1 or ......

Olaf

Lossless Playback

Reply #24 –
Quote
Thanks very much, this is the kind of thing I'm thinking about buying.... at aroud 550 Eur I think it fits my budget.

Now, how do you think it would compare to the DACs inside your average "hifi" A/V amps  from Yamaha / Denon / JVC etc?  (aside from the fact that the adi2 seems to be plain vanilla stereo and doesn't do any of the multichannel stuff like DTS; not that I really care in my case).
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=342128"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


i compared with Sony XA30ES, Sony XB790 SaCD, Tascam DA-20mkII (as converter only) and the DACs of my M-Audio Revo.
i have to say that the ADI-2 beats them all. i was always able to find out which one the ADI-2 is in a blind test. it procudes a very clear and transparent sound. especcially on well recorded hihats and cymbals it's pretty easy to hear the adi-2 out. it doesn't colorize the sound in any way in my opinion. it doesn't sound overly warm or equalized, it's pretty analytic to my ears, which i appreciate as i don't want my dac to color anything. to me this is just a device that has to do a job and this job is to try to be as close as possible to the original - digital - source.
i think it's really worth the money because it has got a lot of professional features which you often don't get when buying a dac from some "high fidelity brand" that comes in a well designed chassis and all that stuff (you know what i mean)...
rme has also got a good support. you probably don't know this manufacturer but their devices are pretty widely used among audio professionals/studios etc.

i know it's not liked here to claim such things without a abx test but you asked me and i don't have the time to do an abx test at the moment.