HydrogenAudio

Lossy Audio Compression => AAC => AAC - General => Topic started by: al_iguana on 2006-05-04 19:32:27

Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: al_iguana on 2006-05-04 19:32:27
can anyone recommend a string to get this working in EAC? Please?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: gaekwad2 on 2006-05-05 00:17:34
can anyone recommend a string to get this working in EAC? Please?

-q 0.5 -if %s -of %d
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: al_iguana on 2006-05-05 06:45:34
aha, thanks. i missed out the %s (doh!)
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: rudefyet on 2006-05-05 08:18:52
so is the latest encoder included in Nero 7 or do I have to install the software linked above?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Latexxx on 2006-05-05 09:53:40
so is the latest encoder included in Nero 7 or do I have to install the software linked above?

You don't even need Nero 7 to run that software. So I'd say just use the new program and leave Nero alone.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-05 10:13:53
Just to clarify, what are the options to set for the foobar CLI interface (0.83 and 0.9x)

I'm thinking stuff like 16/24 bit, floating point, accurate length and tagging issues.

And please write in large and coloured text "do not use 2pass with pure VBR mode it makes no sense". Or disable that combination in next release.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 11:50:07
so is the latest encoder included in Nero 7 or do I have to install the software linked above?


Nero has a slightly older version of the encoder above, but it is safe to use if you for example feel uncomfortable using a command line utility. There are no significant quality differences.


Just to clarify, what are the options to set for the foobar CLI interface (0.83 and 0.9x)

I'm thinking stuff like 16/24 bit, floating point, accurate length and tagging issues.


Options given are for 0.9.x, I'll clarify that. The encoder will accept any input format.

For 0.8.3, you can enable accurate length, or disable it and use "-ignorelength". As far as I understand, the latter option is actually preferred.

There are some reports that 0.8.3 might have broken MP4 tagging, so using 0.9.x is recommended.

Quote
And please write in large and coloured text "do not use 2pass with pure VBR mode it makes no sense". Or disable that combination in next release.


We will probably just disable it. I certainly didn't anticipate that people would try to do that!
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: benc on 2006-05-05 12:18:12
Code: [Select]
                Note that the above switches (-lc, -he, -hev2) should not be
                used; optimal AAC profile is automatically determined from
                quality/bitrate settings when no override is specified.


By default, what quality/bitrate settings result in LC/HE/HEv2 profile being used?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: The Link on 2006-05-05 12:22:02
By default, what quality/bitrate settings result in LC/HE/HEv2 profile being used?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....55&#entry386255 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=43996&st=25&p=386255&#entry386255)
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 12:32:27
By default, what quality/bitrate settings result in LC/HE/HEv2 profile being used?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....55&#entry386255 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=43996&st=25&p=386255&#entry386255)


Sorry, but this was changed in the meantime based on test feedback.

Currently, the switching is at <40kbps (PS enabled) and <85kbps (SBR enabled).

The quality levels are -q 0.16 and -q 0.31 (from memory, may be wrong).

Note that this all may change from update to update as we change or improve various parts of the encoder, so relying on this is not a good idea. ("The Link" already unwillingly demonstrated this  )

This is also only valid for stereo. Mono and multichannel work differently yet again.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-05 12:46:34
Mhmm floating point input, nice
thx
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Niphlod on 2006-05-05 13:58:54
Sorry, but this was changed in the meantime based on test feedback.

Currently, the switching is at <40kbps (PS enabled) and <85kbps (SBR enabled).

The quality levels are -q 0.16 and -q 0.31 (from memory, may be wrong).





whoooooo , that's what I wanted .... settings are right (0.159 = ps enabled, 0.309 = sbr enabled) ......


Note that this all may change from update to update as we change or improve various parts of the encoder, so relying on this is not a good idea. ("The Link" already unwillingly demonstrated this  )


if you change this "parameters" can you put it in the readme.txt or in a changelog ?

thanks in advance

    <-- nero acc devs
  <-- users
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: smok3 on 2006-05-05 15:42:51
i cant seem to find that 'quality <-> bitrate' table anymore? (were quality switches changed as well?)
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-05 15:54:27
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44310 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44310)
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: smok3 on 2006-05-05 16:04:59
oh, tnx.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Sagittaire on 2006-05-05 21:10:13
Possible to add switch for wav input chanel order like for example faac. It's very usefull setting.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Shandra on 2006-05-06 13:40:54

can anyone recommend a string to get this working in EAC? Please?

-q 0.5 -if %s -of %d



Thanks to Nero for that decission (releasing the encoder for free) :up: !

So far I used nero_fends as a command line tool together with my nero6 dlls - and I am more than glad to switch now to the new encoder version - only question is - how can I tag the files via EAC? So far I was used to just provide the tags through the command line and those switches am I missing now.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: al_iguana on 2006-05-06 19:11:10
I'm a Lame --preset extreme kind of guy normally, what would be an similar setting in Neroenc? .6 ? or is that too much?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: BinaryTB on 2006-05-06 19:21:14
I'm a Lame --preset extreme kind of guy normally, what would be an similar setting in Neroenc? .6 ? or is that too much?

I would like to know as well.  The jump between .5 and .55 seems a bit high, or maybe it was just the music I selected.  Don't know where standard or extreme would actually land.  Or the previous AAC Normal/High settings.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: tycho on 2006-05-06 22:13:47


can anyone recommend a string to get this working in EAC? Please?

-q 0.5 -if %s -of %d



Thanks to Nero for that decission (releasing the encoder for free) :up: !

So far I used nero_fends as a command line tool together with my nero6 dlls - and I am more than glad to switch now to the new encoder version - only question is - how can I tag the files via EAC? So far I was used to just provide the tags through the command line and those switches am I missing now.


Get AtomicParsley (http://atomicparsley.sourceforge.net/). Make sure to download v0.8.0, and not the latest one (buggy).

File extension: .m4a

Program used for compression:  c:\WINDOWS\System32\cmd.exe

Additional command line options:
    /c c:\Encoders\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && c:\Encoders\AtomicParsley.exe %d --writeBack --artist "%a" --album "%g" --tracknum "%n/%x" --title "%t" --genre "%m" --year "%y"
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: al_iguana on 2006-05-06 22:53:51
could we use this AtomicParsley to tag from EAC? I can't get EAC to insert the tags.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: kwanbis on 2006-05-06 23:00:45
take a look at MAREO, it works fine with the conbination.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: al_iguana on 2006-05-07 11:36:51
the Atomic Parsley method (above) works fine. I couldn't get Mareo to tag.... It would encode the Flac, encode the mp4, then say something about "file already exists" when it comes to tagging.

But we're going off topic, apologies

When I encode a file using -q .55 (latest Nenc), the files show up as CBR in Foobar. Is this normal? I thought they were VBR? (or is that a bug in foobar?)

-- edit

it must be something with the output codecs. I installed the in_mp4 from rarewares in Winamp and now its showing it as a vbr

sorry, just checking that I wasn't doing anything wrong
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-07 13:27:31
When I encode a file using -q .55 (latest Nenc), the files show up as CBR in Foobar. Is this normal? I thought they were VBR? (or is that a bug in foobar?)


Which foobar2000 version?! As far as I know it doesn't even display that...but yes, -q is definitely VBR.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: M on 2006-05-07 15:12:24

When I encode a file using -q .55 (latest Nenc), the files show up as CBR in Foobar. Is this normal? I thought they were VBR? (or is that a bug in foobar?)


Which foobar2000 version?! As far as I know it doesn't even display that...but yes, -q is definitely VBR.

... and similarly, when I encode using -cbr, looking at the bitrate indicator in Winamp (using the MP4 input plugin for Winamp plugin found at RareWares (http://www.rarewares.org/mp4.html)) the bitrate still fluctuates by a few kbps either direction of the target.

Same question: Is this normal? I thought they were "CBR"?

The plugin in question shows up as "AudioCoding.com MPEG-4 General Audio player: 2.1 beta compiled on Jul 9 2004." (Is there a later version?)

    - M.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Shandra on 2006-05-07 15:32:08
Program used for compression:  c:\WINDOWS\System32\cmd.exe

Additional command line options:
    /c c:\Encoders\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && c:\Encoders\AtomicParsley.exe %d --writeBack --artist "%a" --album "%g" --tracknum "%n/%x" --title "%t" --genre "%m" --year "%y"


Thanks! (&Yikes - though about writing a simple c app. wich wraps to nero and then some tagger - wasn't aware that you can call cmd with more than one task)

About Lame and comparison - I also use Lame with ap_extreme, faac I used to call with -q 120 (though I had checked in that time lame extreme vs. faac q 100 with foobars abx tool and strange was that I couldn't differ mp3 from wav or faac from wav on various samples, but mp3 compared to aac was in the 85% range - apart from that it amused me I have given it no further thoughts so far) and later nero (6) LC normal (again with mentioned result in abx) so I think I will stay with .5 until I have the time to do some testing again for myself (or the better-then-mine ears here on the forum have come up with some new recommended settings sticky  ).
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-07 16:12:08


When I encode a file using -q .55 (latest Nenc), the files show up as CBR in Foobar. Is this normal? I thought they were VBR? (or is that a bug in foobar?)


Which foobar2000 version?! As far as I know it doesn't even display that...but yes, -q is definitely VBR.

... and similarly, when I encode using -cbr, looking at the bitrate indicator in Winamp (using the MP4 input plugin for Winamp plugin found at RareWares (http://www.rarewares.org/mp4.html)) the bitrate still fluctuates by a few kbps either direction of the target.

Same question: Is this normal? I thought they were "CBR"?


CBR in ISO AAC means 'VBR within the bit-reservoir limits' where bit reservoir size is known and defined by the standard.

In theory, it would be possible to make AAC perfect 'CBR' (where every frame is exactly the size of the desired bit-rate) but that would make no sense for this purpose.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: audioflex on 2006-05-07 16:34:48
how would i turn on PNS?

this is a tool i would very much like to use like in the older nero versions, the lowpass is much too low on lc-aac, and pns fixes it.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: The Sheep of DEATH on 2006-05-07 19:19:10
how would i turn on PNS?

this is a tool i would very much like to use like in the older nero versions, the lowpass is much too low on lc-aac, and pns fixes it.

Whether or not PNS completely "fixes" it is a matter for debate, but these options (as I've remarked in the larger command-line thread), appear to be hidden from the user and unavailable for modification, unfortunately.  What do you think of my request for an "advanced options" category including the options to enable such things as PNS and lowpass frequency?  It seems you are having a problem quite similar to mine
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Spaceboy on 2006-05-09 21:29:09
Quote
Get AtomicParsley (http://atomicparsley.sourceforge.net/). Make sure to download v0.8.0, and not the latest one (buggy).

File extension: .m4a

Program used for compression:  c:\WINDOWS\System32\cmd.exe

Additional command line options:
    /c c:\Encoders\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && c:\Encoders\AtomicParsley.exe %d --writeBack --artist "%a" --album "%g" --tracknum "%n/%x" --title "%t" --genre "%m" --year "%y"



For some reason I can't seem to get this working with the above config.  EAC finishes copying temp wav file to hard drive, then Nero Encoder window pops up and immediately closes.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: baloor on 2006-05-10 04:10:12
Quote


Get AtomicParsley (http://atomicparsley.sourceforge.net/). Make sure to download v0.8.0, and not the latest one (buggy).

File extension: .m4a

Program used for compression:  c:\WINDOWS\System32\cmd.exe

Additional command line options:
    /c c:\Encoders\neroAacEnc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && c:\Encoders\AtomicParsley.exe %d --writeBack --artist "%a" --album "%g" --tracknum "%n/%x" --title "%t" --genre "%m" --year "%y"



For some reason I can't seem to get this working with the above config.  EAC finishes copying temp wav file to hard drive, then Nero Encoder window pops up and immediately closes.


Change the additional command line option /c at the begining there to /k
This will keep the command window open while you troubleshoot and will allow you to see what error is returned.

Be sure to have followed the advice and use AtomicParsley 0.8.0. Apart from the latest release being a bit buggy, the command --writeBack has been deprecated and will return an error using the above command line example.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Spaceboy on 2006-05-11 01:26:31
Fixed
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: =trott= on 2006-05-16 08:45:49
There are some reports that 0.8.3 might have broken MP4 tagging, so using 0.9.x is recommended.


In fact it seems that 0.9 has broken mp4 tagging too. It writes the tags at the end of the file instead of at the beginning. The result is that importing the files into several music players is verrrry slow, it's not possible to stream the aac files using itunes and some programs can not read the tags.

After running mp4creator -optimize (which moves the tags to the beginning as far as I understand it) these problems disappear.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-16 08:57:54

There are some reports that 0.8.3 might have broken MP4 tagging, so using 0.9.x is recommended.


In fact it seems that 0.9 has broken mp4 tagging too.


False.

Quote
It writes the tags at the end of the file instead of at the beginning.


That's legal.

Quote
The result is that importing the files into several music players is verrrry slow, it's not possible to stream the aac files using itunes and some programs can not read the tags.

After running mp4creator -optimize (which moves the tags to the beginning as far as I understand it) these problems disappear.


Why not ask the authors of those broken programs to fix their software instead of trying to hide the problem?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: anaxamander on 2006-05-16 13:09:22
In fact it seems that 0.9 has broken mp4 tagging too.

False.


Actually fubar2000 0.9x does improper tagging. And Nero seems seems to be implementing it as well. foobar2000 0.8.x does the better job of tagging - 'compliant' would be the word to use.

Why not ask the authors of those broken programs to fix their software instead of trying to hide the problem?

Okay, I'll bite.

Dear Nero Developer(s):

As author of your freeware encoder cli program, please fix your broken piece of software. Your manner of tagging files is incompatible with the ISO Base Media File Format.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-16 13:16:28
Quote
As author of your freeware encoder cli program, please fix your broken piece of software. Your manner of tagging files is incompatible with the ISO Base Media File Format.


Could you please pinpoint us to the part of the ISO 14496 that you believe we are breaking, especially with regards to the position of the MOOV atom in the physical file?

Thank you very  much in advance.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: sony666 on 2006-05-16 14:19:18
Anyone who would not like to see "advenced options" please make yourself heard
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: jarsonic on 2006-05-16 14:31:48
My guess is that iTunes puts the tags at the beginning of the file to aid in / simplify streaming, the same way that ID3v2 tags are at the beginning of files to allow for easier streaming.  Now, I'm not saying that Nero is obligated to change where their mp4 tags are in the file, because it doesn't seem to be against the standard.  However, it would be nice to have an option to put the tag at the beginning of the file, if only to allow for streaming in iTunes.  I only care a little bit, but my girlfriend complains that she can't listen to the songs in my iTunes library from her computer.

I know additional switches are being frowned upon (and I understand why, Garf), but truthfully it might be a useful one to consider.  It doesn't affect the quality of the file, either way; it's more akin to the switch embedding album art.  Am I wrong? 
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-16 14:40:53
Quote
My guess is that iTunes puts the tags at the beginning of the file to aid in / simplify streaming, the same way that ID3v2 tags are at the beginning of files to allow for easier streaming.


MP4 file should not be streamable, there are MPEG-4 streaming protocols that deal with streaming of the MPEG-4 content.

Comparing ID3v2 and MPEG-4 atom-based-tags is useless - these are two completely different things.

One advantage of the tags at the beginning of the file is easy access from the software that does not need to know about mpeg-4 file format too much.

But in order to store tags at the beginning you:

- Either have to rearrange the file when the encoding is done (and that means you need double the space of the file on the disk, and also it takes time in case of large files) ;  note that every modification of the file in the future that alters tags would mean that the file must be optimized again

- Or, leave some space at the beginning, for tags - this is OK, but it means sacrificing some storage space a priori

Quote
I know additional switches are being frowned upon (and I understand why, Garf), but truthfully it might be a useful one to consider. It doesn't affect the quality of the file, either way; it's more akin to the switch embedding album art. Am I wrong? smile.gif


We will think of this problem and try to find a solution acceptable for all.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: anaxamander on 2006-05-16 14:50:00
Quote

As author of your freeware encoder cli program, please fix your broken piece of software. Your manner of tagging files is incompatible with the ISO Base Media File Format.


Could you please pinpoint us to the part of the ISO 14496 that you believe we are breaking, especially with regards to the position of the MOOV atom in the physical file?

Thank you very  much in advance.



It isn't the position of the moov atom. Currently, its the last 80 bytes or so - until you implement tagging when it will balloon in size. Those last 80 bytes where you try to implement fubar2000's tagging scheme is the problem.

Specifically:
• Your 'meta' atom moov.udta.meta.tags.meta is in direct violation of the file format. From the documentation:

Code: [Select]
8.44.1 The Meta box 
8.44.1.1 Definition
Box Type: ‘meta’
Container: File, Movie Box (‘moov’), or Track Box (‘trak’)
Mandatory: No
Quantity: Zero or one
A meta box contains descriptive or annotative metadata.  The 'meta' box is required to contain a ‘hdlr’ box
indicating the structure or format of the ‘meta’ box contents.  That metadata is located either within a box
within this box (e.g. an XML box), or is located by the item identified by a primary item box
[snip]
aligned(8) class MetaBox (handler_type)
extends FullBox(‘meta’, version = 0, 0) {
HandlerBox(handler_type) theHandler;
[snip]
}

So your meta box is non-compliant with four (4) parts of the 'meta' atom specification:
1-improper placement (your meta is in not in the enumerated containers).
2- you are missing the required 'hdlr' box.
3- versioning of your meta atom is wrong (though 3 is less a violation since its a renegade atom).
4-lemme count the 'meta' atoms. I should have ZERO or ONE. I have 'moov.udta.meta' (Oh, that's my limit of 1... oh, just for fun I'll keep on looking...) 'moov.udta.meta.tags.meta' (oh dear, that's 2).

• Your atoms/boxes after your improper meta are NOT atoms/boxes as defined in the ISO Base Media File Format. As an example, take your tool atom (moov.udta.meta.tags.meta.tool - hopefully you see a double-meta there). The specification defines an atom as (edited for clarity):

class Box {
unsigned int(32) size; //number of bytes in this box, including all its fields and contained boxes
unsigned int(32) type = boxtype; //four printable characters
}

The atom directly after 'meta' is 'tool'. But... if you have a 32-bit number for size... what is 0x00000474 ? 1140 bytes. But you don't have 1140 bytes after that to EOF - that 0x74 is coming from the 't' in 'tool' because you WROTE A 24-BIT NUMBER. The 'tool' atom you intended to write became  the 'ool ' atom (with a NULL at the end). Just count by 4's after meta.

That's 5 times you've broken compliance. In 80 bytes no less!

The entire file format is based off that 4byte-4byte specification. It isn't reassuring that Nero's freeware encoder is in violation of the ISO Base File Format specification. And if you follow down the fubar2000's path like a lemming - there are things in 'tags' which I assume are trying to be atoms. So, how does one pack 'artist' into 4bytes. Bitpacking? And what about the duplication - artwork being embedded twice? Is Nero going to be fubar2000's lemming? Nero has the duplicate tool/encoder tags, will Nero be duplicating everything? I say, will Nero be duplicating everything?
--------
Additionally, you want to spread this tagging manner to the 3GP world. There is nothing in THAT specification that says anything about iTunes-style metadata being in their file format (search for the word 'asset' to find their way of storing metadata). So while it isn't forbidden, no 3GP device will show any metadata because it isn't properly stored. And, you won't find support for that in libmp4v2, so please consider not trying to tag 3GP (and later or derivative) files.

MP4 file should not be streamable, there are MPEG-4 streaming protocols that deal with streaming of the MPEG-4 content.

Uh, they CAN be streamable. How do you think iTunes streams mp4 over an airport connection? But when the receiving device has no 'moov' atom at the beginning to tell it what its bitrate... or anything is, the device can't decode it. I also think that when you tag with libmp4v2 in its default manner, you will prevent the iPod Shuffle from playing your files. It has been discussed in in this forum.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: menno on 2006-05-16 15:45:46
Quote
moov.udta.meta.tags.meta


You seem to have parsed the file incorrectly. You combine 2 things here

1: moov.udta.meta (iTunes compatible tag)

2: moov.udta.tags.meta (tagging that foobar2000 also uses)

The "tags" box is directly under the "udta" box. "tags" is not specified in 14496 so any parser will just skip it, along with the "meta" box inside.

What parsers will do with the iTunes tag is not completely clear to me, now that "atom" also seems to be defined in 14496. But a parser should know that "meta" should not be found under "udta" and would have to skip it.

BTW, I cannot find that specification for the "meta" box anywhere. Do you have an exact MPEG document number where you found this?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: menno on 2006-05-16 15:55:51
EDIT: hmm was looking at wrong part
But anyway, you don't know how the "tags" atom is specified, so you can't say that there is incorrect data in there.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: anaxamander on 2006-05-16 16:18:25
You are right in that it's not moov.udta.meta.tags.meta, its moov.udta.tags.meta. I typed incorrectly.
EDIT: hmm was looking at wrong part
But anyway, you don't know how the "tags" atom is specified, so you can't say that there is incorrect data in there.


I can say that if I were to literally follow the file structure and find every atom in the file, I would find 2 'meta' atoms. I don't care so much because I've accommodated the non-compliant data. But more bad news for you - it's that 14496 coming back at you.  If you want to go creating your own atoms, then there is another part of the specification (and mpeg4ra.org) which deals with that too:

Code: [Select]
6.2 Metadata Structure (Objects) 
6.2.1 Box
Type fields not defined here are reserved. Private extensions shall be achieved through the ‘uuid’ type.

I can't find 'tags' in 14996 or at mpeg4ra - its be a private extension. That should be a uuid atom then Sony PSP for example uses uuid atoms for their private extensions. Nero/fubar2000 does not. So that's more violations (you are using a 'reserved' name; you 'tags' atom isn't a uuid type).

As your colleague stated:
Why not ask the authors of those broken programs to fix their software instead of trying to hide the problem?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: menno on 2006-05-16 17:12:22
You are right in that it's not moov.udta.meta.tags.meta, its moov.udta.tags.meta. I typed incorrectly.

EDIT: hmm was looking at wrong part
But anyway, you don't know how the "tags" atom is specified, so you can't say that there is incorrect data in there.


I can say that if I were to literally follow the file structure and find every atom in the file, I would find 2 'meta' atoms.


No, only one. You would only find two if you would assume that every atom always contains more atoms (because you don't know the "tags" atom) and that is of course not true.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Csound on 2006-05-16 18:33:47
Quote
Anyone who would not like to see "advenced options" please make yourself heard


I don't think it's necessary...  The encoder works well enough for me at every bitrate I've tested.

As for recommended settings, I actually use the -q1 quality mode a lot. Why? In this mode I think it comes close to lossless quality at less than half the bitrate of a lossless files. The music sounds very well balanced, it doesn't suffer from the thin bass like Itunes AAC have, and it also sounds pretty involving for a lossy encoding. The bitrates seems to lie around 380 kbps in this mode but I have no problems playing the files on my portable devices, even my mobile phone plays them without exceptions. Great!

The only thing I'm curious about is if the bitrate really "max out" when using -q1 VBR mode? I know the encoder can go as high as 465 kbps but is this range really used in -q1 mode? If I listen critically the music looses some "scale" and "air" compared to to the original so if the encoder has higher potential than is being used today I would like to see an even better -q1 mode in the future (without having to use CBR 465 kbps...) I know many will see this as overkill but to me it's an alternative to lossless compression that is much less portable in comparison...

Thanks for a great encoder NERO!
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: menno on 2006-05-17 08:18:40
If you want to go creating your own atoms, then there is another part of the specification (and mpeg4ra.org) which deals with that too:

Code: [Select]
6.2 Metadata Structure (Objects) 
6.2.1 Box
Type fields not defined here are reserved. Private extensions shall be achieved through the ‘uuid’ type.

I can't find 'tags' in 14996 or at mpeg4ra - its be a private extension. That should be a uuid atom then Sony PSP for example uses uuid atoms for their private extensions. Nero/fubar2000 does not. So that's more violations (you are using a 'reserved' name; you 'tags' atom isn't a uuid type).

As your colleague stated:
Why not ask the authors of those broken programs to fix their software instead of trying to hide the problem?


On another forum for your (assuming that you are the author of AtomicParsley) software, I found the following message:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=3641462 (http://sourceforge.net/forum/message.php?msg_id=3641462)

I'm wondering why:

1: you feel the need to assume that "tags" has child atoms (mistake in your tool?)

2: "chpl" does play by the rules according to you (or are you just talking about the child atoms again)

3: "meta" in "udta" is correct for iTunes metadata? (ok didn't get that from that message, but still wondering  )


I do not disagree that technically an uuid should be used, but I can't imagine it giving any problems anywhere in the future. No parser will skip a file because it has an unknown atom type.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: stephanV on 2006-05-17 08:48:57
Quote
In this mode I think it comes close to lossless quality at less than half the bitrate of a lossless files. The music sounds very well balanced, it doesn't suffer from the thin bass like Itunes AAC have, and it also sounds pretty involving for a lossy encoding.


Quote
If I listen critically the music looses some "scale" and "air" compared to to the original so if the encoder has higher potential than is being used today I would like to see an even better -q1 mode in the future (without having to use CBR 465 kbps...)

Eh? Have you read the TOS and especially #8?

I normally wouldn't ask for this if settings were different, but for a setting like -q 1, I think this is rather important.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Csound on 2006-05-17 09:44:01
Quote
Eh? Have you read the TOS and especially #8?


I have now...  Sorry for this mistake. I'm new to the forum and rushed in without reading TOS.

Quote
I normally wouldn't ask for this if settings were different, but for a setting like -q 1, I think this is rather important.


It's important to me too. I've done a lot of testing, blind A/B switching and more over the years with many different encoders. In the case of Nero AAC I have compared -q1 with -br 465 and -CBR465 to original PCM in depht and there are noticable differences between them on every level if you use analytical equipment. I am curious how the -q1 mode works in detail since I would like to validate my "subjective" experiences with some hard facts. The file sizes differ but that's not really evidence enough...
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Ivan Dimkovic on 2006-05-17 09:57:56
Your "analytical equipment" is probably difference signal analysis?

Of course, these files differ because AAC is a lossy codec, and quantization will differ for these two files.

But, what is important is that - at this bit rate, you can be pretty sure that -br 465 and -q 1.0 will (we are talking about stereo files, right?)  have "noise" well below the human masking threshold.

So, both files should be pretty transparent to your ears
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Csound on 2006-05-17 12:04:12
Quote
So, both files should be pretty transparent to your ears


Yes, they are pretty transparent to my ears. That's the reason I joined this forum, to follow the progression of a already pretty good lossy AAC encoder. 

I'll try to make my subjective listening experiences presentable in a more objective way in the future.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: BinaryTB on 2006-05-22 18:59:24
I read/searched, but couldn't find an answer.  But was there ever a consensus on what to arguments to use with the command-line encoder for iPod compatibility AND to keep the file size low?

e.g.
-lc forces LC, but has a higher bitrate
leaving out -lc keeps the bitrate much lower, but may or may not be an LC AAC file

Strange enough, both files at Q0.5, but bitrates varying a lot.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-22 19:01:19
Just use -lc and tweak the -q setting until you get the kind of bitrate you like.

The bitrate only increases because the quality scale has a different base. The encoder doesn't suddenly get less efficient or anything.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Maurits on 2006-05-22 19:55:38
What is meant by iPod compatibility? Just to force LC profile I suppose? There are no compatibility issues are there?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: BinaryTB on 2006-05-22 20:04:29
The bitrate only increases because the quality scale has a different base.

I don't understand what that means exactly, but just to clarify, Q0.5 with and without -lc should sound the same, but the bitrates would just vary?

What is meant by iPod compatibility? Just to force LC profile I suppose? There are no compatibility issues are there?

Yup, I think iPods only do LC right now.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Garf on 2006-05-22 20:11:39

The bitrate only increases because the quality scale has a different base.

I don't understand what that means exactly, but just to clarify, Q0.5 with and without -lc should sound the same, but the bitrates would just vary?


No. When you force -lc, the quality scale shifts, and Q0.5 doesn't have the same meaning as without -lc.

Basically, -q0.5 means "encode at some constant quality level". But when you force the encoder to LC mode, "-lc -q0.5" means "encode at some other constant quality level". The reasons for this are explained at length in other threads here.


As I stated already in my first answer, just lower the -q setting till you get the bitrates you want again.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: rudefyet on 2006-06-19 07:40:51
so what would the best setting for ~128kbps be?

I would assume 0.4, but foobar2000 has 0.41 = ~130kbps, so I'm a tad uncertain
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Garf on 2006-06-19 07:45:55
so what would the best setting for ~128kbps be?

I would assume 0.4, but foobar2000 has 0.41 = ~130kbps, so I'm a tad uncertain


If you want 128kbps, use "-br 128000". VBR never guarantees a given bitrate.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=44310 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44310)
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Jebus on 2006-07-11 22:02:51
So just to clarify, using -q 0.5 without -lc will still be perfectly iPod compatible, because (at least right now) 0.5 is not using HE anyhow, correct?

And if I want to find the equivalent with -lc enabled, all I need to do is find a -q setting that gives the same bitrate on the same file, and it should be of identical quality to the -q 0.5 file without -lc? Nothing else will be going on there? Different lowpass for example?

I think this is a confusing design decision, while I understand the reasoning.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: TheQat on 2006-07-13 23:09:33
I'm using this command line with EAC:

Code: [Select]
/c e:\nero_digital_audio\win32\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && e:\nero_digital_audio\Neroaactag.exe %d -meta:artist="%a" -meta:album="%g" -meta:track="%n" -meta:title="%t" -meta:genre="%m" -meta:year="%y"


and it is producing m4a files that give the error:

Code: [Select]
Could not load info (Unsupported format or corrupted file (moov box not found)) from:
"E:\Documents and Settings\Benjamin Miller\My Documents\My Music\iTunes\glassjaw\Glassjaw  - Mu Empire.m4a"


when I attempt to add them to my foobar playlist. I have no idea what to do about this problem.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can provide the specs of my computer if needed.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: audioffile on 2007-12-20 01:36:52
There is a link to this thread in the HA wiki. I am wondering if that link shouldn't point to the sticky instead of this thread. 

Also, all the wiki pages on AAC are all locked for editing. I'm a total noob to the wiki  but i thought the whole idea was that anyone could edit/contribute. What's the deal? 

Sorry if this isn't the place for this post, but I'm not sure where else to ask this question.

EDIT: Figured it out on my own (found the wiki forum) sorry for the post in the wrong place.
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: arfken on 2008-01-04 18:34:41
I'm using this command line with EAC:

Code: [Select]
/c e:\nero_digital_audio\win32\neroaacenc.exe -q 0.5 -if %s -of %d && e:\nero_digital_audio\Neroaactag.exe %d -meta:artist="%a" -meta:album="%g" -meta:track="%n" -meta:title="%t" -meta:genre="%m" -meta:year="%y"


and it is producing m4a files that give the error:

Code: [Select]
Could not load info (Unsupported format or corrupted file (moov box not found)) from:
"E:\Documents and Settings\Benjamin Miller\My Documents\My Music\iTunes\glassjaw\Glassjaw  - Mu Empire.m4a"


when I attempt to add them to my foobar playlist. I have no idea what to do about this problem.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I can provide the specs of my computer if needed.


I know that this post is old, but I was having precisely the same problem when I encoded using the latest Nero AAC encoder, and I seem to have found what the problem was. I am using the command line from the sticky-thread about recommended Nero AAC settings, but I kept getting this "moov box not found" error over and over again. iTunes just refused to play it, and Quicktime said it was a format that it did not understand. The problem was that I had the "Add ID3 tag" option in EAC checked by accident, and unchecking it and redoing the rip/encode fixed the problem. I have searched for quite a while on HA and on Google, but nobody seemed to post a solution, so to anybody out there experiencing it, just something to try. 
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: audioffile on 2008-01-05 23:43:30
Quote
Code: [Select]
Approx. average bitrate <-> Quality table

Bitrate          Quality
~15                 0.05    
~32                 0.15
~63                 0.25
~99                 0.35
~146                0.45
~197                0.55
~248                0.65
~299                0.75
~350                0.85
~401                0.95


For stereo, right? Multichannel would be higher?
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: Synaptic Line Noise on 2013-05-20 14:31:31
The command line options in the sticky (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44310) are incorrect. It should be %source% and %dest%. You can mouse over the input field in EAC to show the new options.

The new options are here:

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...ression_Options (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=EAC_Compression_Options)
Title: Nero AAC Recommended Settings
Post by: db1989 on 2013-05-20 14:46:04
It might be easier to consult my table specifically documenting placeholders and comparing them between versions of EAC:
http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?ti...AC_placeholders (http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=EAC_placeholders)
I could edit the OP, but so could Garf, and I think it best to leave it to him.