HydrogenAudio

Hydrogenaudio Forum => Site Related Discussion => Topic started by: Jan S. on 2009-05-16 23:58:27

Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Jan S. on 2009-05-16 23:58:27
We have had a number of episodes where some member decides to delete all his posts by removing the content. This can often deface threads as there is now parts of the discussion missing and we end up having to spend a lot of time cleaning up.
To avoid this regular members can now only edit their posts in the first hour. Developers can still edit their own posts without restrictions.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: 2E7AH on 2009-05-18 18:34:04
Maybe the regular user should have the option to modify his post with appending the edit data, while not being able to change the original post
The reason for asking this is that maybe sometimes regular user don't want to popup the topic in forum, just by editing minor or not so relevant thing

[edit] but still having the option to edit the post (like me right now)
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Jan S. on 2009-05-18 18:42:04
What you suggest is not possible with the forum software. If something really needs editing regular users will have to contact a moderator.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: lvqcl on 2009-05-18 21:32:08
Does this restriction applies to upload forums? If yes, is it possible to remove this restriction for them?
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Jan S. on 2009-05-18 21:52:09
Yes. No.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Alex B on 2009-05-20 11:13:28
I just stumbled on this restriction when I tried edit a typo (it is just a missing article, nothing very important.)

However, I have a few times edited things like changed image or sample links in some of my replies that I consider important and valuable for the community (for instance, in posts that contain my personal test results or codec comparison tables for Sebastian Mares' listening test threads).

I am not personally happy about this new restriction, though I understand very well the reasoning and need for it.

I wonder if it could be possible to add a new user category that would allow long time members who can be considered as important contributors to edit their posts. Members like Sebastian Mares would definitely belong to this category and perhaps some "less important" guys like me could then request this status.

Thanks for your attention.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: carpman on 2009-05-20 16:44:57
I agree with Alex B, for slightly different reasons.
I'm not a developer, but I released an auto-rating formula for foobar2000, which has different release versions etc. It would be embarrassing for me to have a "developer" status (I'm no programmer), but I will need to make first post edits for release changes and additions. So would it be possible to either do what Alex B suggested, or provide rights on a per thread basis (in my case I'll only need editing rights for one thread).

Thanks,

C.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Yirkha on 2009-05-20 20:45:23
We've also talked about another possibility regarding this - use the [! Report] button next to the post and send the changes to a moderator.
I know many reasons why it isn't optimal, how silly it feels, and even that the report form specifically says it's not for this usage, but we're not here only to ban people after all.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Axon on 2009-05-21 03:09:37
This does blow - I've wanted to do corrections 1-2 days after a post - but I'm comfortable with the ask-a-mod workaround.

Any chance that the edit limit be extended to something like 5 days?
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Yirkha on 2009-06-05 21:19:32
Related quote from a random other thread:
Can't edit my post, so I have to make a new reply.
(additional info follows)
Although some people might take this as a limitation, it's a good thing in this situation.
The original post was from 5 hours ago, so if it was just edited, people would blindly miss the added part, because the the topic would not appear in the recent topics list again.
ETA: And moderators can merge the posts later if needed anyway.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: chrizoo on 2010-02-07 21:01:48
We have had a number of episodes where some member decides to delete all his posts by removing the content. This can often deface thread as there is now parts of the discussion missing and we end up having to spend a lot of time cleaning up.
To avoid this regular members can now only edit their posts in the first hour. Developers can still edit their own posts without restrictions.


while I understand the abovementioned intentions, I think more harm is done than prevented! You say "This can often deface thread". This happens occasionally. How about the every-day defacing of threads now, due to missing editing. For example see my own thread here, which I wanted to update as the discussion folds out :

Hi everyone.

[text of OP]

....................................................................................................
.........

I will update this section with pros/cons for both sides:

single album file

PROS:
  • little gain of HDD space/reduction of fragmentation (little relevance to me, personally)

CONS:

standalone files

PROS:
CONS:

Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: chrizoo on 2010-02-07 21:05:22
And why don't you just ban the offenders and undelete the postings in these rare occasions. Why do you want to punish everyone for a few bad apples ?!?
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: greynol on 2010-02-07 21:25:33
Creating threads where the original post will change to reflect what is being discussed is not an everyday occurrence.

Furthermore, these types of posts are actually discouraged in favor of contributing to our wiki which can be edited by anyone that requests an account.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: greynol on 2010-02-07 21:27:09
undelete the postings

Not currently possible.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: chrizoo on 2010-02-07 21:38:05
undelete the postings

Not currently possible.


see:

We have had a number of episodes [...] and we end up having to spend a lot of time cleaning up.


Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: chrizoo on 2010-02-07 21:45:34
Creating threads where the original post will change to reflect what is being discussed is not an everyday occurrence.
But is intelligent. And useful for subsequent readers years afterwards... (instead of harvesting bits of arguments in a 7 page thread). Besides, the alleged reason for this restriction (users gone rogue and deleting all own postings) is by all means not an everyday occurence either.

So my question is still: Why do the moderators want to punish everyone for a few bad apples ?!?


Quote
Furthermore, these types of posts are actually discouraged in favor of contributing to our wiki which can be edited by anyone that requests an account.
The OP (which is summarized to reflect the whole thread's outcomes / knowledge) can be copied or at least be used as a starting point for a wiki entry. And just because a wiki article is written doesn't mean it's useless to summarize a forum thread. Plus, it is helpful WHILE the thread is written, to have a good overview of the main arguments.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: greynol on 2010-02-07 21:51:46
But is intelligent. And useful for subsequent readers years afterwards...
...assuming the people will actually read them rather than just asking the same question over again.  No offense, but the post you authored is discussed on almost a weekly basis and will probably continue to be discussed on almost a weekly basis despite what appears to be an attempt on your part to create some kind of go-to de-facto topic.  Again, that's what the wiki is for.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: greynol on 2010-02-07 21:54:28
see:
We have had a number of episodes [...] and we end up having to spend a lot of time cleaning up.

Fine, not without a lot of effort and still not always possible.  Take it from me, chrizoo, I've taken on the task of doing this before.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: tpijag on 2010-02-07 21:58:10
Exactly

This is an anonymous, albeit, moderated discussion forum.

I will wade through posts if I decide for myself whether it is worth the effort to continue.

What I will not do is trust some random OP and their executive summary as to the salient points subsequently discussed.


terry
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: chrizoo on 2010-02-07 22:23:35
But is intelligent. And useful for subsequent readers years afterwards...
...assuming the people will actually read them rather than just asking the same question over again.  No offense, but the post you authored

when I said "is intelligent and useful for subsequent readers" I meant the principle in general. Not my posting specifically. And not my posting at all.

I think for the purpose of this thread, all of this is off-topic anyway, but since you mention it, I will reply:
Quote
... is discussed on almost a weekly basis
yes, thanks to the links you posted I've realized that now. I use the search function, but don't forget that you are in the business for a long time and know your way around ... people like me sometimes don't even know how to formulate a title for my *OWN* thread ... so let alone finding similar other threads


Quote
...assuming the people will actually read them rather than just asking the same question over again. No offense, but the post you authored is discussed on almost a weekly basis and will probably continue to be discussed on almost a weekly basis
yes, but you don't realize that your attitude only fosters this very same situation you denounce.


Quote
despite what appears to be an attempt on your part to create some kind of go-to de-facto topic.  Again, that's what the wiki is for.
on a Wiki there is no interactive discussion with an intense exchange as here. Considering a group-brainstorming (just that for this topic it has been done already). Plus:
Quote
The OP (which is summarized to reflect the whole thread's outcomes / knowledge) can be copied or at least be used as a starting point for a wiki entry. And just because a wiki article is written doesn't mean it's useless to summarize a forum thread. Plus, it is helpful WHILE the thread is written, to have a good overview of the main arguments.



Take it from me, chrizoo, I've taken on the task of doing this before.
of course I believe you. i just thought my quote might be of interest to you.

Anyways, I would hope you re-consider this restriction in favour of an alternative answer to this problem.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: chrizoo on 2010-02-07 22:33:34
What I will not do is trust some random OP and their executive summary as to the salient points subsequently discussed.
nobody forces you, terry. It is additional very helpful information, but if you want to skip it, just skip it.

Sometimes, when reading a thread I come to a posting somewhere at the end, that kind of summarizes the main points and I'm very thankful for this.
Plus - as I said - it's not just useful for subsequent readers but also for those who contribute to the thread WHILE it is written, so as to have an overview what has already been said - in a concise form. I don't count the number of times when points get repeated three and more times ....

Anyway, I think I've said more enough on that subject. Do whatever you want, I just wanted to give my point of view. Because it is sad that everyone is punished by this limitation of expression just because of a few "bad posters" (who nevertheless had contributed information worth its weight in gold . Most of the forums I know don't need to resort to these measures, and even if they do, they usually exempt the first posting.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Akkurat on 2010-02-07 23:30:03
Quote
[random OP and their executive summary] is additional very helpful information

Well, it depends.. if it really summaries the topic correctly.. which might be hard due to e.g. subjectiveness and lack of knowledge.

Wiki is Wiki, forum is forum, anyone is free to discuss Wiki topics here in the forum, be it existent or to-be-created Wiki pages. I don't think that we need a mix-up of those. Forum is for discussing. Consensus can be made in the "end" of the discussion and then transferred to Wiki. My 2c's.

Also you have to understand that updates to posts don't fire up email notifications nor RSS updates! This is important. Who has the time to manually watch over what gets changed and not?! This would be a problem if we want to correct possible false statements. Even with this 1 hour edit limit, one sees user comments how they've missed edits to previous posts.

Personally I don't like (late) edits to posts at all.. though I've rights to do those as a developer. 1 hour is good enough IMHO.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: chrizoo on 2010-02-07 23:39:28
Akkurat,

your points are valid and I agree with them, but since you seem to reply to me, they are mute/off-topic because I only pled for modification rights concerning the thread's first posting, not in general.

And as far as "Wiki is Wiki, forum is forum" is concerned, that's not an argument, just the way you want things to be, but you have pointed that out yourself anyway.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Akkurat on 2010-02-08 04:32:49
your points are valid and I agree with them, but since you seem to reply to me, they are mute/off-topic because I only pled for modification rights concerning the thread's first posting, not in general.

Certainly not OT. All of my points apply to first posts as well as any subsequent posts. Also look at the topic name. Off-topic?

And as far as "Wiki is Wiki, forum is forum" is concerned, that's not an argument, just the way you want things to be

It's how I like it to be, and it's how many many others want it too. And it's an argument IMHO. These web applications have been created to satisfy a need and this is the current way they operate. Let's look at what wiki and forum actually mean today. "A wiki enables documents to be written collaboratively" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki#Characteristics), while "An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum). What's the difference? "Wikis, unlike conventional forums, typically allow all users to edit all content, including each other's messages" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum#Comparison_with_other_Web_applications).

You're basically looking for a feature in a forum software that already exist in wiki: a talk page (also known as a discussion page) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page) (+ a wiki page of course to accompany that). I haven't seen nor participated in any HA wiki discussions. I guess mainly because we have this wonderful forum to satisfy that need much better.. and AFAIK, there are only few that have wiki rights. Here's the dedicated wiki forum (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showforum=36) here in HA. Note that there was only 3 topics that had posts made to last year. Dunno why. Is HA wiki so good, or are people not interested, or don't they know about it?

As for your point of:
...it's not just useful for subsequent readers but also for those who contribute to the thread WHILE it is written, so as to have an overview what has already been said - in a concise form. I don't count the number of times when points get repeated three and more times ....

I believe that the discussion itself presents the actual content much better than a "one-sided", have to quote tpijag, "executive summary" in the first post. Also, I believe that it's the participants responsibility to check out what is being discussed before launching into action. Seriously, how do you properly participate in a discussion if you only have read the summary?! Who do you answer to? Or do you just post general stuff based on what you read from the summary? It's like participating in a book reading club when you've read an abstract of a book while others have read the full story.. I hate analogues but there it is.

Note that I'm not against trailing summaries at all. Unfortunately the reality is that people do not write those. Trailing summary is ok because it's always a "new" post to all and easier to address.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Jan S. on 2010-02-08 12:39:57
and AFAIK, there are only few that have wiki rights.


More than 200 people now and everybody else that asks.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Akkurat on 2010-02-08 15:35:44
and AFAIK, there are only few that have wiki rights.

More than 200 people now and everybody else that asks.

That's more than I imagined. Then again, what is it, ~1-2% of "active" users of HA? (counted about 20% (too much?) of all registered users as "active") Interesting, thanks for the tidbit.

EDIT: page break, quotes added.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: pdq on 2010-02-08 15:53:10
20% would be nearly 16,000 active members. That does sound very high. Or were you considering active to include people who occasionally read posts but do not necessarily post themselves?

Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Akkurat on 2010-02-08 16:13:59
I got about 13000 (20% of 65963), anyways, it sounds too high, though I guess I was thinking just like you wrote. 20% was mostly a feeling, sorry, not very scientific.  With 5% of active users, the wiki rights group would be (only?) ~6%. Going OT with this.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: ExUser on 2010-02-08 16:35:09
For comparison (and contributing to the off-topicness, but it's a relevant stat), all top 200 posters have 520 posts or more.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: pdq on 2010-02-08 17:33:00
Unless I am reading it wrong, the number of members with >= 100 posts is more than one thousand. 
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2010-02-08 17:46:09
The other defensive move (which I prefer over an edit ban TBH) is when you reply to someone, quote the relevant part.

If the other person subsequently changes their original post, they look foolish.

Works consistently well across the whole net.

Cheers,
David.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: pdq on 2010-02-08 18:21:12
Unfortunately you don't know when a person is going to edit his post, so this defensive move may result in a lot of unnecessary quoting.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: klonuo on 2010-11-08 16:50:03
Hm, I thought to post about this restriction, but it seems all I wanted to say is covered and admins don't want to backup from their positions

Anyway, I wanted to say this: prolong limit to at least 1-2 day (posted by Axon) and disable this restriction to already limited upload forum (posted by lvqcl)

Related quote from a random other thread:
Can't edit my post, so I have to make a new reply.
(additional info follows)

I see this kind of posts when new users gets surprised, as this restriction feature is nowhere to be seen. So you probably should inform users upon account creation with their rights, as after 1h they'll lose control over what they posted (from now on owned by HA inc), obviously unpopular give it away rights to change your own post
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: greynol on 2010-11-08 17:39:59
Posting here is a privilege, not a right.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: klonuo on 2010-11-08 17:53:22
Even in elite forum I would like to know that I can't edit my own posts 1h after submitting - it's more like priviledged mailing list
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: greynol on 2010-11-08 17:56:46
People are encouraged to read stickies before posting and this topic is a sticky, so....
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: klonuo on 2010-11-08 19:14:32
Sticky in "Site Related Discussion" forum is not something regular user reads, but can be discovered as I did

Editing own posts should be considered as helpful to forum maintainers/owners and general users, as I don't see it as malicious act, which is mostly discussed here ("guilty until proven innocent"  ). On contrary, I can imagine that some posts could be more perceptible if users would not have this restriction. After all, it's clear when post is edited by appended line in that post, history of changes can be tracked at administrator side (I believe), but also even by end-user with RSS.

Is there other forum out there with this philosophy?

I don't believe much that I can change this, as I'm just a user and it's older than me, and going back to previous state is just something no one does, but IMHO it's backward step which makes more troubles than solves trouble.
Perhaps you know best
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Akkurat on 2010-11-08 19:24:47
Quote
history of changes can be tracked at administrator side (I believe), but also even by end-user with RSS

Slightly OT, but not every post is published in RSS (when there's more than 1 post to the same topic within TTL (=5mins here)).

I like the policy and I don't think that it makes much trouble to users.. wouldn't we see more complaints in that case?
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: greynol on 2010-11-08 19:28:28
Your belief that a history of changes can be tracked might be at odds with reality, but I don't know the answer.  Perhaps it is not a valid excuse, but I am not an administrator.

Anyway, blame it on those who spoiled it for the rest of you by defacing the forum through petty temper-tantrums.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: klonuo on 2010-11-08 19:29:59
Quote
wouldn't we see more complaints in that case?


If you see it as make-up feature not present in any other forum, I guess not
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: ojdo on 2010-11-08 20:25:50
You probably don't see so much complaints because they tend to be futile in this forum, thanks to strict moderation. 

I can live with the restriction, but I second the suggestion to allow unlimited editing on the upload forum again, so that everyone who publishes some configurations/scripts there can easily maintain a helpful first post, just like plugin developers can.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: greynol on 2010-11-08 20:28:34
Jan already said that this wasn't possible.  Those who want to make changes can always PM a moderator or administrator.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Zarggg on 2010-11-10 20:22:20
After all, it's clear when post is edited by appended line in that post, history of changes can be tracked at administrator side (I believe), but also even by end-user with RSS.

I cannot speak specifically to this forum, but in general, most forum databases do not store a "history of changes" like MediaWiki does without being specifically modified to do so. It's just not part of the forum software paradigm. To prevent an exponentially increasing database size, only the "current" text of a given post is stored.
Title: New restriction: users cannot edit posts after 1 hour
Post by: Soap on 2010-11-10 21:38:00
I love the feature.  The is nothing more frustrating as a moderator than a poster who retracts statements through malice or not.

The frustration of trying to repair a thread maliciously broken is self evident.  But there is also the more subtle problem of the non-malicious edit which breaks the flow of a conversation, if not context itself.  On a board where there is an expectation that users search before posting there needs to be assurance that conversations remain intact. 

This one IP Board feature alone has made me want to move Rockbox away from SMF.