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Topic: Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"? (Read 20434 times) previous topic - next topic
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Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

How come no one recommends the following as the "best/purest" setting for LAME?  Joint stereo just doesn't cut it for some music tracks.  Sure the music may sound a little better in some areas because of the few extra bits provided by using joint stereo but at a 320 cbr will you really be missing much using true stereo?  To me true stereo separation is critical and I wonder why the insane preset doesn't include it as the default.  To me the insane preset with the following overrides are what should be used.

--alt-preset insane -ms -d -c

Or would it be better to define the complete command line avoiding the insane preset all together, since the preset was probably designed for joint stereo in mind and might not give the same type of quality when used with the "-ms" (stereo) setting.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #1 –
just read a bit about JS and pure Stereo. Pure Stereo is just a waste of bits as you can't hear ANY difference to the JS mode Lame uses!

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #2 –
I would have to disagree here.  I can tell the difference between joint stereo and pure stereo on some music tracks, even at this bit-rate.  Joint stereo will not always give you the same results as with true stereo.  As for wasted bits, at 320 cbr there's already a lot of wasted bits just because the encoding is being done at a constant bit-rate.  I use my mp3s on a high end stereo system so maybe I'm over critical about the overall sound quality of my mp3s, I would use a lossless compression but I also use my mp3s with the newer iPod's so it's easier to only have to worry about one audio format.  I will admit that LAME probably has the best joint stereo implementation out there but it's still not the same as true stereo.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #3 –
The joint stereo mode used by Lame is Middle-Side stereo. This mode does not reduce stereo separation, unlike the Intensity Stereo mode implemented by some other encoders.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #4 –
PureDreams, I am sure you can give us some examples where --alt-preset insane has worse stereo image than -h -b320 -m s.
Please encode the original wav problem samples with flac and post the links here. Thank you

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #5 –
Quote
I would have to disagree here.  I can tell the difference between joint stereo and pure stereo on some music tracks, even at this bit-rate. 

Please provide us a lossless clip where you can support this statement with ABX results, as stated in the HA Terms of Service #8
Furthermore, you could try to put up the effort to read the FAQ and use the search function to find threads like this one.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #6 –
First off, I wasn't expecting such negative feedback - but the one post above did provide some interesting information about the joint stereo that LAME uses.  Please be reminded, I'm not saying that joint stereo produces a lesser quality sound vs true stereo but rather I can tell a difference in the stereo imaging on some music tracks.  Also note, I'm playing my music back on a high end stereo system (over $5,000) so what I may hear and what you hear are two different things depending on the equipment used.  But just as a side note, when I went speaker shopping for the setup I have now the difference in sound from a $1,000 speaker (each) to a $2,000+ speaker (each) can be heard at the same volume levels.  Also, stereo imaging is hearable across the entire sound spectrum, it's just less noticeable at the lower frequencies.

I don't concern myself with graphs or numbers so I won't be able to provide that kind of information.  But I will find a few music tracks (just the sections that are noticeable) and will post the raw wave file (in ape format), along with a mp3 joint and mp3 normal stereo setting.  I'll post the samples later this week when I have more time to find a music track that has the most trouble with joint stereo, as far as stereo imaging is concerned.

But to clarify things...I'm using the following setting

--alt-preset insane -ms -d -c

and NOT these, as someone else posted and then reposted by someone else (didn't the person read the original posting?).

-h -b320 -m s

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #7 –
Why does it seem that every new member to this forum have to disagre with the preset in of of there 5 first post ?
and still lack the ability to do probber abx testing.

A god advise i have always followed was to read in a forum at least a month before making statments.
Many times you can learn alot by setting youself in listen mode for the first month.
Sven Bent - Denmark

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #8 –
Yay. You seem to have succeeded in making all the newbie mistakes all at once.

1) Not reading the FAQ or using the search function, causing you to ask something that has been asked about 1000 times already.

First of all, there's a thread marked 'Read before posting', I suggest you actually do that:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/show.php/act/...t/ST/f/1/t/7516

Specifically the section: "Why is joint stereo better than pure stereo ?"

That should already answer your question to a large extent.

2) Claiming a commandline is  'better' without any evidence whatsoever to support your statement. And no, what you think (which was wrong) what it does is not sufficient. Not only is it foolish and certain to provoke harsh responses, it's also in violation of the forum rules.

3) Reminding everyone that you have a really expensive setup that consequently surely must be better than what everyone else has and thus magically allowing you to hear things noone else can hear. It's the best way to never ever get taken seriously. You only forgot to mention you have a PhD and thus surely are also smarter than anyone else here.

4) Exposing yourself at never having seriously tested what you are recommended, making you look like a total fool. Hint: the -d switch doesn't work as you describe, in fact it's entirely the opposite. This was changed in LAME but not in the documentation. Of course, if you had actually TESTED what you recommend you would have figured this out. Since you haven't tested what you recommend, why should we take you seriously?

5) Recommending normalization. Normalization is in general a very bad idea to do, simply because it doesn't accomplish anything, contrary to what you may think.

You weren't expecting negative feedback? Think again.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #9 –
I've been reading and searching the posts for over a week before I decided to become a member - wish they wouldn't ask for your e-mail address during sign-up, always worried about getting more junk mail.  I understand that LAME uses a different flavor of joint stereo during higher bit rates.  But Mid/Side Stereo is not stereo image lossless if used with a lossy encoding format like mp3.  It's used to gain more bits so the encoding can be of a higher quality.  The cost is loss of stereo imaging/separation on some music tracks.  Unlike most, I'm willing to give up a bit of sound quality during those times for true imaging - at least if I'm using 320 cbr.  But as a side note, Mid/Side Stereo can provide true stereo imaging if used with a lossless format and implemented correctly, such as with the ape file format (Monkey Audio - uses Mid/Side Stereo during it's lossless compression).

Listed below is an interesting read, for those that care to dig deeper.

Joint Stereo - The Myths ... and The Realities

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #10 –
Quote
I've been reading and searching the posts for over a week before I decided to become a member - wish they wouldn't ask for your e-mail address during sign-up, always worried about getting more junk mail. 


You will not receive any mail unless you ask for it (e.g. resending your password if you forget it).

Quote
I understand that LAME uses a different flavor of joint stereo during higher bit rates. 


You do not understand and you are wrong. LAME does not support Intensity Stereo, it always uses Joint Stereo LR/MS switching, and does so at both low and high bitrates.

Quote
But Mid/Side Stereo is not stereo image lossless if used with a lossy encoding format like mp3.


This is actually correct. But what you are completely failing to realize is that this is also the case for forced stereo. The loss in imaging results from the encoder failing to properly encode the Side channel. But the exact same effect exists in full stereo coding when the encoder artifacts in one channel and not in another. There is no advantage of forced stereo over mid side stereo at all here. In fact, in most cases forced stereo is more likely to do this, because it is a less efficient encoding method for most sounds.

LAME APS uses advanced switching code to determine the encoding type that is least likely to artifact, taking into account that a loss of stereo imaging is to be avoided at all costs.

It's not clear to me from your posting whether you understand this, but Joint Stereo means that both Mid-Side stereo and Left-Right stereo are used, whatever one is most appropriate for the sound being encoded.

Quote
It's used to gain more bits so the encoding can be of a higher quality.


Completely correct.

Quote
The cost is loss of stereoimaging/separation on some music tracks.


In most cases it will be exactly the opposite.

Note that I say in most cases. It will be possible to find clips where JS switching fails, but there will be more where Forced Stereo is worse, _including_ in stereo imaging.

Quote
Listed below is an interesting read, for those that care to dig deeper.

Joint Stereo - The Myths ... and The Realities


It's a very good explanation, maybe it should be added in the FAQ. Would you mind reading it? You certainly don't sound like you did. The author is specifically recommending to use Joint Stereo over forced stereo.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #11 –
Quote
How come no one recommends the following as the "best/purest" setting for LAME?  Joint stereo just doesn't cut it for some music tracks.  Sure the music may sound a little better in some areas because of the few extra bits provided by using joint stereo but at a 320 cbr will you really be missing much using true stereo?  To me true stereo separation is critical and I wonder why the insane preset doesn't include it as the default.  To me the insane preset with the following overrides are what should be used.

--alt-preset insane -ms -d -c

Tssk...
This matter has already been researched to great extents, and it turns out you can tweak LAME much further.

Here's a quote from the relevant post (that was me):

Quote
After lots of intensive research, I found this near-optimal VBR cmd line that performs brillantly on both difficult samples and regular music !

Here it is:

lame.exe -V2 -q9 --resample 48 --interch 1 -md -p --allshort --notemp --nores -k --strictly-enforce-ISO
--nspsytune --ns-bass 850 --ns-alto 1000 --ns-treble -2500


As you will see, 48kHz VBR double-mono is the way to go. Not a single bit is shared between the 2 channels, because we don't trust joint-stereo. Also the psymodel is disabled, because...  well, who needs it anyway.

Cheers

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #12 –
Quote
Here it is:

lame.exe -V2 -q9 --resample 48 --interch 1 -md -p --allshort --notemp --nores -k --strictly-enforce-ISO
--nspsytune --ns-bass 850 --ns-alto 1000 --ns-treble -2500

Thanks, I will have to check that commandline out ... 

@PureDreams

You will be taken seroiusly the moment you provide hard evidence and test samples where stereo imaging suffers due to M/S encoding over separated full stereo.

Hard evidence means that you will encode your test sample two times ... standard --alt-preset insane and your preferred commandline with -ms ... then you will decode both samples and do some blind testing (aka ABX) on your high end equipment ... post the two samples (compressed with a lossless format) here and you will see that anyone interested will take care of your "problem" instead of giving you a negative feedback ...
The name was Plex The Ripper, not Jack The Ripper

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #13 –
> Yay. You seem to have succeeded in making all the newbie mistakes all at once.

I consider this an unacceptable response from a moderator of the group.

> 1) Not reading the FAQ or using the search function, causing you to ask something that has been asked about 1000 times already.
>
>First of all, there's a thread marked 'Read before posting', I suggest you actually do that:
>
>http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/show.php/act/...t/ST/f/1/t/7516
>
>Specifically the section: "Why is joint stereo better than pure stereo ?"
>
>That should already answer your question to a large extent.

No where do I see it mention the effects of overriding the insane preset with stereo in the section you've named above.  It's well known that lower bit-rates benefit greatly by using joint stereo.  But at 320 cbr you are dealing with a very high quality encoding and at that level imaging is paramount.  Even Dibrom has stated that - "Now, that's not to say the --alt-presets are perfect. I certainly know they aren't. But they also don't have some massive flaw in regards to stereo image which is present to the degree some people imply. In fact, the only case I've seen which I put any credence in is the few isolated cases which Wombat has found (and provided samples for I might add). I will eventually attempt to address these few samples, but note that these are exceptional cases, not common cases, and as far as I can tell, they are completely unrelated to the other complaints being made. "  I wasn't stating that the preset was seriously flawed but I have noticed on a few music tracks that there have been imaging problems.

> 2) Claiming a command line is 'better' without any evidence whatsoever to support your statement. And no, what you think (which was wrong) what it does is not sufficient. Not only is it foolish and certain to provoke harsh responses, it's also in violation of the forum rules.

I never claimed that the command line I listed was "better".  I just asked why wasn't "-ms" used during the insane setting because it provides true stereo separation/imaging all the time, at the cost of a bit in audio quality.  As mentioned above, even Dibrom has stated that under rare cases imaging has been effected.

>3) Reminding everyone that you have a really expensive setup that consequently surely must be better than what everyone else has and thus magically allowing you to hear things noone else can hear. It's the best way to never ever get taken seriously. You only forgot to mention you have a PhD and thus surely are also smarter than anyone else here.

What kind of response is this?  If one were to listen to music on a pair of $40 computer speakers then you'll probably never know the difference.  Stating that I'm using higher end equipment does matter, and yes there is a difference.  If I was using cheap stuff people would say "must be your cheapo speakers" get better ones.  I take my music seriously by listening to it, since that's what matters - no PhD required.  Btw, would you take someone's view more seriously because they have a PhD but rarely listen to music or someone that listens to a lot of music often?  I surely wouldn't buy equipment because the "specs." said it was best, I would use the product to determine it's quality.

>4) Exposing yourself at never having seriously tested what you are recommended, making you look like a total fool. Hint: the -d switch doesn't work as you describe, in fact it's entirely the opposite. This was changed in LAME but not in the documentation. Of course, if you had actually TESTED what you recommend you would have figured this out. Since you haven't tested what you recommend, why should we take you seriously?

Again, nice response from a moderator.  Hmm...now I'm suppose to be psychic and know the source code by heart since the documentation doesn't mention the change.  The "-d" switch isn't a part of the mp3 standard but considering that there could be an increased quality benefit I use it.  Btw, there's no need to test what one actually uses for their entire music collection.

>5) Recommending normalization. Normalization is in general a very bad idea to do, simply because it doesn't accomplish anything, contrary to what you may think.

Normalizing does wonders for me - it keeps me from constantly adjusting the volume when I'm listening to music.  Normalization is the only way to deal with this issue unless you have software/hardeare that scans the music before playback and adjust the volume for you.  Sure, normalization can cause music to be cut off at the high or low end, but that's a very rare case and if used incorrectly.

> You weren't expecting negative feedback? Think again.

No, but now you have mine.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #14 –
We should collect all these threads in a "newbie mistakes" forum, then when another one shows up, just forward them to it. Maybe once they realize how irrational the other (virtually identical) threads sound, they will realize their error.

Look, PureDreams... ABX means double-blind testing. We firmly believe you are the victim of placebo. Prove us wrong! Joint Stereo has long been considered PERFECT by this community because NO ONE has been able to ABX a difference.

If you refuse to do this testing, then this thread will be locked, and you will most likely be banned. Those are the breaks, my friend.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #15 –
Quote
Normalizing does wonders for me - it keeps me from constantly adjusting the volume when I'm listening to music. 

Does anyone need any further evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about? Please browse forum, read, learn (especially from http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/ in normalisation case) THEN discuss.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #16 –
Quote
No where do I see it mention the effects of overriding the insane preset with stereo in the section you've named above. It's well known that lower bit-rates benefit greatly by using joint stereo. But at 320 cbr you are dealing with a very high quality encoding and at that level imaging is paramount.

Wrong. Very low bitrates can benefit greatly from intensity stereo (which is not implemented in LAME).
On the other hand, mid-side stereo brings benefits at any bitrate.
Btw the article you mentioned does contain the correct info !

If you use full-stereo you decrease coding efficiency by 30-40% on average. Again if you think you heard an issue at 320kbps, please provide evidence.

Quote
What kind of response is this? If one were to listen to music on a pair of $40 computer speakers then you'll probably never know the difference. Stating that I'm using higher end equipment does matter, and yes there is a difference.

Having high-end equipment does matter, but you must still do proper (ie: rigorous) tests. A careful blind test on $40 headphones may have more value than just thinking you heard a difference in a recording studio.

Having very good equipment doesn't prevent one from being misled by his/her feelings. Especially when seeking very subtle differences.

Quote
Again, nice response from a moderator. Hmm...now I'm suppose to be psychic and know the source code by heart since the documentation doesn't mention the change. The "-d" switch isn't a part of the mp3 standard but considering that there could be an increased quality benefit I use it. Btw, there's no need to test what one actually uses for their entire music collection.

Why even bother with source code or command-line tweaking in the first place ? If the -d switch actually brought improvements, if would be part of the --alt-preset switches.  These presets were introduced for a reason.

By the way, it's possible that mid-side stereo will actually improve quality (but I don't know if this is implemented in LAME). Here's a quote from Ivan Dimkovic, about mppenc:

Quote
Apart for using to reduce bit-rate, when channels contain similar energies in frequency domain, M/S coding is also used to avoid so-called "stereo unmasking" artifacts that can happen when you encode two channels separately. This second usage is IMO more important.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #17 –
Quote
Look, PureDreams... ABX means double-blind testing. We firmly believe you are the victim of placebo. Prove us wrong! Joint Stereo has long been considered PERFECT by this community because NO ONE has been able to ABX a difference.

Umm.. I'd really abstain from this kind of declarations.
In lossy audio few things if anything is perfect. And there certainly have been people ABXing differences in certain area (for example mid/side vs l-r pre-echo etc.), but what is better and in which situation is not so simple at all.

That said, insane uses by default quite a lot of left-right frames. Anybody who thinks there's a problem with mid/side narrowing the stereo field, should first check for example with encspot if the encoder is even using mid/side frames at those positions where the listener thinks mid/side is to blame (it could be that mid/side would be infact needed..) Then start doing the standard ABXing etc...

Anyway, keep it calm people so that this thread doesn't need to be locked.
Juha Laaksonheimo

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #18 –
I would also like to add that if you wish to list hardware used, listing it as "$2000 speakers" also does not cut it.  I have setup complete systems that hit the $1500 mark that outperform $10,000 systems in terms of quality, sound reproduction, imaging, etc.  So $$$ ist not quality guarantee.  If you wish to espouse your system, give a listing of the system in question.

Also, if you are serious enough to use 320 CBR, you might as well go lossless.  The filesize difference is not going to be that much, and you don't sacrifice any quality.
In Case Of Bose, Break Glass
Flac yuo in teh ASIO!

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #19 –
Quote
> Yay. You seem to have succeeded in making all the newbie mistakes all at once.

I consider this an unacceptable response from a moderator of the group.


You clearly have STILL not read the forum rules, which SPECIFICALLY address this in rule 8.

Even if there was not rule 8, I'd still consider my response entirely appriate.

But I'm obviously biased. If you still think my reaction is unappropriate and uncalled for, feel free to complain to the forum administrators (JohnV and Dibrom) and I will accept whatever they have to say on this.

Quote
No where do I see it mention the effects of overriding the insane preset with stereo in the section you've named above. 


I quote the first post in thread 2:

Quote

5. Joint stereo is needed even at bitrates of 320kbps to achieve the best sound quality in some critical cases.


Now, that wasn't very hard, was it?

Not to mention the last thread talks exclusively about using -ms with --alt-preset extreme, which is also a very high bitrate setting.

Quote
Even Dibrom has stated that - "Now, that's not to say the --alt-presets are perfect...


Yes. Notice how this exactly corresponds to my statement that there exist EXCEPTIONS where forced stereo outperforms joint stereo in imaging. But they're EXCEPTIONS because they're in the general it is the other way around.

Quote
I never claimed that the command line I listed was "better".  I just asked why wasn't "-ms" used during the insane setting because it provides true stereo separation/imaging all the time


This isn't necessarily true, as I explained above. You are assuming that -ms automatically gives you a better stereo image, which is incorrect.

Quote
What kind of response is this?  If one were to listen to music on a pair of $40 computer speakers then you'll probably never know the difference. 


That is an assumption you make. I'd personally recommend headphones over anything for detecting stereo imaging issues, but people disagree here. In any case low grade equipment does not necessarily mean that you'll not be able to spot defects, as experience has indicated many times.

Quote
Stating that I'm using higher end equipment does matter, and yes there is a difference.  If I was using cheap stuff people would say "must be your cheapo speakers" get better ones. 


Good luck finding examples on the board. You'll have to look long and hard. Hint: Problems that occur on low grade equipment are generally worse on high end equipment.

Quote
If I was using cheap stuff people would say "must be your cheapo speakers" get better ones.  I take my music seriously by listening to it, since that's what matters - no PhD required.  Btw, would you take someone's view more seriously because they have a PhD but rarely listen to music or someone that listens to a lot of music often?  I surely wouldn't buy equipment because the "specs." said it was best, I would use the product to determine it's quality.


Likewise, I don't care at all who you are and what your equipment is. I care whether you present evidence that can support your claim, and if your statements are correct and making sense.

Quote
Again, nice response from a moderator.  Hmm...now I'm suppose to be psychic and know the source code by heart since the documentation doesn't mention the change.  The "-d" switch isn't a part of the mp3 standard but considering that there could be an increased quality benefit I use it.  Btw, there's no need to test what one actually uses for their entire music collection.


Yes, this seems to be the root of the problem. You're just doing stuff _assuming_ you're right and know what you're talking about without _bothering_ to even _check_ whether you're right at all.

Quote
Normalizing does wonders for me - it keeps me from constantly adjusting the volume when I'm listening to music.  Normalization is the only way to deal with this issue unless you have software/hardeare that scans the music before playback and adjust the volume for you.  Sure, normalization can cause music to be cut off at the high or low end, but that's a very rare case and if used incorrectly.


I see other people have already cleared up this horrible misunderstading, so I will not comment further on it.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #20 –
Chastity, what always astonishes me, is how people would not trust a particular codec (ie: they use switches that the developers themselves will never recommend), yet they still use (and trust) the very same codec as soon as they "tweaked" it, and encode everything with it...

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #21 –
That part of it doesn't bother me, since I am not the one listening to that file, unless they upload it somewhere. 
In Case Of Bose, Break Glass
Flac yuo in teh ASIO!

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #22 –
Quote
If you refuse to do this testing, then this thread will be locked, and you will most likely be banned. Those are the breaks, my friend.

The thread might be locked if there is no evidence provided and the discussion repeats itself. But PureDreams said he would provide some samples, therefore the thread should not be locked.

But banning a user usually occurs if he/she ignores warnings repeatedly.

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #23 –
Quote
But PureDreams said he would provide some samples,

Just out of curiosity, is there an identified sample in which "real stereo (-ms)" will do better (one of those "exceptions" mentioned)?

In thinking Jimi Hendrix...

edited for clarity of question (not that it matters much anyway...I found the answer)
I'm the one in the picture, sitting on a giant cabbage in Mexico, circa 1978.
Reseñas de Rock en Español: www.estadogeneral.com

Why doesn't the insane preset use "-ms"?

Reply #24 –
come on everybody!  let's all get on the newbie bashing wagon!