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Topic: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect (Read 27620 times) previous topic - next topic
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Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

I noticed something strange in regard to the Realtek HD Audio Driver. Specifically the "Default Format" setting (tab) in the Realtek HD Audio Manager. Namely, when I play music using Foobar, in WASAPI Exclusive mode, in theory, it should make no difference (in terms of sound) which setting I select in that tab in the Realtek console/manager. However, I can hear clear differences in sound depending on the setting.

For example, if I play a 16-bit/44.1 kHz (lossless) file in Foobar, I notice a clearly audible difference between selecting "16 Bits, 44100Hz (CD Quality)" option in the Realtek console (which matches the file being played), and, say, "24 Bits, 192000 kHz (Studio Quality)" (which is the highest available option). Now, I could go on and say which of these settings gives "better" sound in my opinion, but I am baffled as to why there are any differences at all, given that I'm not playing music in Shared mode.

The only thing I am able to infer from this experiment is that the Realtek driver (or some other software) somehow still gets involved in the sound path, even though Foobar is outputting in WASAPI Exclusive mode. And it might be that that software is doing some sort of processing of the audio (maybe resampling?), which affects the sound.

Does anybody have any explanation for this? Has anyone noticed the same thing or something similar?

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #1
The only thing I am able to infer from this experiment is that the Realtek driver (or some other software) somehow still gets involved in the sound path, even though Foobar is outputting in WASAPI Exclusive mode.

Being in exclusive mode does not magically avoid the need to resample if the source and destination sample rates do not match.  It also doesn't necessarily disable any other DSPs built into the audio driver or playback device. 


Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #2
Being in exclusive mode does not magically avoid the need to resample if the source and destination sample rates do not match.  It also doesn't necessarily disable any other DSPs built into the audio driver or playback device. 

OK, which "source" and "destination" sample rates are you referring to? I mean, if the sound card supports the sample rate of the file being played, there shouldn't be a problem. The Realtek Manager itself, in that settings tab, says the following: "Select the sample rate and bit depth to be used when running in shared mode." So clearly, they also say that this setting shouldn't matter in exclusive mode, yet somehow it does.

But, anyway, I have no idea whether resampling is what causes these differences in sound, it was just my speculation.

Also, I don't have any DSPs enabled, either in Foobar, Windows, or Realtek.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #3
Also, I don't have any DSPs enabled, either in Foobar, Windows, or Realtek.

If this is true, then the audio will sound the same.  Probably something is enabled if you hear an obvious difference.

My advice would be to get a loopback cable, run RMAA and see what that setting actually does. 


Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #4
Does Realtek HD Audio system resample 44.1kHz data to 48kHz data at some point (dsp/driver) ?
Do you hear the difference if you set the sample rate to 48kHz either through Windows panel or through resampling plugin in foobar2k or play a 48kHz file?

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #5
In my experience realtek DACs thankfully support 44.1 kHz natively without resampling required, also through WASAPI.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #6
I noticed something strange in regard to the Realtek HD Audio Driver. Specifically the "Default Format" setting (tab) in the Realtek HD Audio Manager. Namely, when I play music using Foobar, in WASAPI Exclusive mode, in theory, it should make no difference (in terms of sound) which setting I select in that tab in the Realtek console/manager. However, I can hear clear differences in sound depending on the setting.

For example, if I play a 16-bit/44.1 kHz (lossless) file in Foobar, I notice a clearly audible difference between selecting "16 Bits, 44100Hz (CD Quality)" option in the Realtek console (which matches the file being played), and, say, "24 Bits, 192000 kHz (Studio Quality)" (which is the highest available option). Now, I could go on and say which of these settings gives "better" sound in my opinion, but I am baffled as to why there are any differences at all, given that I'm not playing music in Shared mode.

The only thing I am able to infer from this experiment is that the Realtek driver (or some other software) somehow still gets involved in the sound path, even though Foobar is outputting in WASAPI Exclusive mode. And it might be that that software is doing some sort of processing of the audio (maybe resampling?), which affects the sound.

Does anybody have any explanation for this? Has anyone noticed the same thing or something similar?

Just so I'm clear...is it your intention to use the soundcard DAC, or are you trying to output digital data to an outboard DAC?




Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #7
In my experience realtek DACs thankfully support 44.1 kHz natively without resampling required, also through WASAPI.

OEMs can customize the implementation and the drivers a bit.  My sister's Windows 8.1 HP laptop had some odd driver based filtering at it's default 48 KHz rate going on, changing the rate disabled it and upgrading it to Windows 10 seemed to actually disable the filtering permanently.

Codec chip is more or less of what it is actually.  As I said it's possible for some features with a codec chip to never be implemented at all by an OEM despite the codec chip having complete support for them.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #8
Unlike those ancient AC97 onboard devices, modern VIA and Realtek HD audio codecs should support 44.1 and 48k and their multiples natively.

However, even if it really reamples, unless the resampler's quality is bad the process is supposed to be transparent. Try to install KB2653312 if you are using Windows 7 in order to fix the resampler quality issue.

In your example, if you set your device at 192k and play a 44.1k file, resampling is required otherwise the audio will be played at wrong speed and pitch.

Bit depth on the other hand doesn't matter, you don't need to explicitly set your device to 16-bit when you play a 16-bit file and you can always use 24-bit even if you play a 8-bit file.

If the problem persists and you suspect the Realtek driver is the culprit, try to uninstall the Realtek driver and use Microsoft's default HD Audio driver.

Regarding the so-called exclusive mode, when I am playing a 48k file using foobar's WASAPI exclusive mode, my X-Fi's control panel still shows the master clock is running at 44.1k. I am pretty sure it not a bug that the control panel failed to update the info since my card needs 1-2 seconds to switch its master clock but it doesn't happen with WASAPI exclusive mode. If I use foobar's ASIO plugin, the card will mute 1-2 seconds when switching sample rate and the master clock in my X-Fi control panel will also change.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #9
My motherboard uses Realtek ALC887, it has an optical output so I tested it with my X-Fi. I didn't install the Realtek driver and only used the Microsoft one. In both WASAPI event and push mode, the output is not affected by shared mode settings. The recording is always bit-perfect with no sign of resampling or bit-depth reduction even if I choose 16-bit when playing a 24-bit file.

I also tested the analog outputs. The output is not affected by shared mode settings as well. Looks like the Realtek is more compatible with WASAPI than my X-Fi. Maybe it is due to the fact that the X-Fi has an independent hardware mixer.

I attached the analog results, not the digital ones because they are just identical with the original test signals. The Realtek device refused to play 88.2k files and my X-Fi can only record up to 96khz so I only tested 44/48/96k.


Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #10
Just so I'm clear...is it your intention to use the soundcard DAC, or are you trying to output digital data to an outboard DAC?

Yes, I use the onboard DAC.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #11
Regarding the so-called exclusive mode, when I am playing a 48k file using foobar's WASAPI exclusive mode, my X-Fi's control panel still shows the master clock is running at 44.1k. I am pretty sure it not a bug that the control panel failed to update the info since my card needs 1-2 seconds to switch its master clock but it doesn't happen with WASAPI exclusive mode. If I use foobar's ASIO plugin, the card will mute 1-2 seconds when switching sample rate and the master clock in my X-Fi control panel will also change.
My motherboard uses Realtek ALC887, it has an optical output so I tested it with my X-Fi. I didn't install the Realtek driver and only used the Microsoft one. In both WASAPI event and push mode, the output is not affected by shared mode settings. The recording is always bit-perfect with no sign of resampling or bit-depth reduction even if I choose 16-bit when playing a 24-bit file.

I also tested the analog outputs. The output is not affected by shared mode settings as well. Looks like the Realtek is more compatible with WASAPI than my X-Fi. Maybe it is due to the fact that the X-Fi has an independent hardware mixer.

Interesting observations, bennetng. From what you say, it looks to me like the default Windows driver is even better than Realtek's own. I have just tried uninstalling the Realtek driver and using the default Windows one, however, I ran into some different problems with it, such as jack connection not being detected, wrong jack mappings, etc., and I don't see the ability to configure that, so I believe I will have to use the Realtek driver...

In your example, if you set your device at 192k and play a 44.1k file, resampling is required otherwise the audio will be played at wrong speed and pitch.
Yes, but, as I mention in an earlier post, Realtek's console says that this setting is only used when running in shared mode. So if I play a file in Exclusive mode in Foobar, WASAPI should connect directly to hardware and set the appropriate clock/sampling rate, circumventing whichever sampling rate is set in the Realtek console. No?

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #12
Quote
Interesting observations, bennetng. From what you say, it looks to me like the default Windows driver is even better than Realtek's own. I have just tried uninstalling the Realtek driver and using the default Windows one, however, I ran into some different problems with it, such as jack connection not being detected, wrong jack mappings, etc., and I don't see the ability to configure that, so I believe I will have to use the Realtek driver...
You can try ASIO4all and see if it can bypass Realtek driver's processings while preserving the functions you need.

Quote
Yes, but, as I mention in an earlier post, Realtek's console says that this setting is only used when running in shared mode. So if I play a file in Exclusive mode in Foobar, WASAPI should connect directly to hardware and set the appropriate clock/sampling rate, circumventing whichever sampling rate is set in the Realtek console. No?
Right, in my tests exclusive mode is not affected by shared mode settings.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #13
I haven't been here in ages, but a recent switch to computer based audio has brought me back.  Realtek DAC's run at 48 khz.  Their documentation refers to frames which are apparently 1/48000 of a second.  When processing 48.1 khz only 147 samples are processed for every 160 fames.  Every 11 or 12 frames one is left empty.  I suppose if one doesn't like it they can resample in Foobar2000.

In the exclusive mode the output setting in Windows audio properties is ignored.  I see this with the colored LED on my Dragonfly 1.2 DAC changing with the sample rate of the file played.  (Dragonfly is defalut audio, Foobar2000 output is set to WASBI event Dragonfly.)  Likewise, when attempting to play a 192k file the dragonfly will not process it unless it is down sampled to 96k or lower without regard to what is set in the Windows audio properties.  My system has an ALC 283 in it and the Realtek driver is installed.

 

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #14
Just noticed it is ALC892 instead of 887 after I searched my previous posts. I recorded the actual audio and performed null tests and pretty sure there is no resampling at 44.1k. In exclusive mode if a sample rate is not supported it won't play (e.g. 37.8khz for playstation xa) and it resamples in other modes. The effect of resampling is easily measurable.

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,110708.msg913134.html#msg913134

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #15
Just noticed it is ALC892 instead of 887 after I searched my previous posts. I recorded the actual audio and performed null tests and pretty sure there is no resampling at 44.1k. In exclusive mode if a sample rate is not supported it won't play (e.g. 37.8khz for playstation xa) and it resamples in other modes. The effect of resampling is easily measurable.

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,110708.msg913134.html#msg913134


37.8 KHz is a pretty odd sample rate, but not surprising as a lot of game consoles and even portables have that going on with the use of uncommon rates.  I wouldn't expect anything to really support it hardware wise.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #16
I haven't been here in ages, but a recent switch to computer based audio has brought me back.  Realtek DAC's run at 48 khz.  Their documentation refers to frames which are apparently 1/48000 of a second.  When processing 48.1 khz only 147 samples are processed for every 160 frames.  Every 11 or 12 frames one is left empty. 
You said you've been away for a while. Are you sure you don't mean the (now very old) AC97 sound cards?
The nowadays common Realtek HD audio is said to support at least 44.1, 48 and 96 kHz (and a lot of them 192 kHz as well).
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #17
Is there a software I can use to check the sound path on my system?

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #18
Hey guys, just thought I'd let you know that I have found a way around the problem I mentioned in the first post. I have found an alternative WASAPI output plugin for Foobar, and now I no longer notice any difference, no matter which "shared mode" setting I select.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #19
That plugin looks promising however does not play on my system (W10, ALC 892). Also event/push mode seems not to be directly selectable. This is not to say that the standard plugin does not need updating - latest version is from 2013.


Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #20
That plugin looks promising however does not play on my system (W10, ALC 892).

Have you tried setting Foobar to output 32-bit? If you're hearing white noise when using 24-bit, that might help.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #21
Yes after I set to 32bit it works now!

But my sound card does (as the others) support 24 bit only. So I wonder why this setting is neccessary.


Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #22
And to add it works but rarely there are slight glitches during WASAPI playback. Not the case with current WASAPI plugin.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #23
And to add it works but rarely there are slight glitches during WASAPI playback. Not the case with current WASAPI plugin.
Try setting "Endpoint buffer size (samples)" to something like 5000 for 44.1 kHz tracks, and more for higher sampling rates. The settings are located under Preferences -> Advanced -> WASAP2 -> Driver Endpoint Config. What's also nice about this plugin is it has a pretty verbose console output, so it's easier to see what's going on under the hood.
Yes after I set to 32bit it works now!

But my sound card does (as the others) support 24 bit only. So I wonder why this setting is neccessary.
Seems like the "default" WASAPI plugin automatically converts to 32-bits (with 24-bits valid). Realtek chips seem to not support 24-bits (24 valid) format, at least mine (ALC 888) doesn't.

Re: Realtek HD Audio Driver - "Default Format" effect

Reply #24
Realtek chips for sure support 24 bit through WASAPI. Actually the opposite is true - 32 bit is not supported at the DAC level (as for the most other DAC - 32 bit is pointless for playback/recording).

I will try to see the console, as tampering with buffer settings can be tricky.