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Topic: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone (Read 38954 times) previous topic - next topic
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Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #25 –
Hi all,
I'm not aware of the O2 amp, could someone point me in the right direction? I have had the HD800's for about a year now and found that they took plenty of running in to curb a slightly bright treble character, there's a fine line between detail and fatigue! I did go for the Sennheiser upgrade cables a few months ago which gave the sound quality an overall improvement in focus, yes I know these are subjective statements but I don't know how else to describe the improvements.
One question, I run the HD800's from the headphone socket of my Arcam A38 amp, but I think I could get more out of the phones by going for a dedicated headphone amp - does anyone have any recommendations with a budget of about 1500GBP? Sennheiser themselves have launched recently a couple of headphone amps which could be an ideal choice, the HDVD800 in particular looks interesting, I'd be really glad to hear any users feedback on this model.
Thanks.

Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #26 –
Quote from: saratoga on
Quote from: stv014 on
Quote from: saratoga on
If the argument was that higher impedances should be used, keep in mind that doubling the impedance from 8 to 16 ohms and using an amp made for 8 ohms only reduces your volume by 6dB, and perhaps not even that depending on the output impedance.  If a 16 ohm design works well, its not very hard to use it with existing equipment.  Lower impedance is much harder though.


Doubling the speaker impedance at identical efficiency actually only reduces the volume by 3 dB, because it halves the power output in the worst case.


My mistake.  It is indeed 3 dB.


The difference is 6 dB because doubled impedance means half the current flow.  Half the current all other things being equal is a 6 dB loss.

Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #27 –
It's hard to take anecdotal claims about break-in seriously when they are accompanied by anecdotal claims about cables. Of course this forum does not accept subjective claims about sound quality when they are not supported with objective evidence in the way of double-blind test results.  This is clearly stated in our rules and we fully expect all of our members, new or old, to follow them.

Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #28 –
Quote from: greynol on
It's hard to take anecdotal claims about break-in seriously when they are accompanied by anecdotal claims about cables. Of course this forum does not accept subjective claims about sound quality when they are not supported with objective evidence in the way of double-blind test results.  This is clearly stated in our rules and we fully expect all of our members, new or old, to follow them.


Thanks for the heads up Greynol, I have duly noted your comments.

Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #29 –
Admission that it is is possible that you simply got used to the sound of the headphones (you were the thing being broken-in) and that the increased focus with the cable swap was due to placebo effect would be even better.

Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #30 –
Quote from: tunamayonaisesalad on
Hi all,
I'm not aware of the O2 amp, could someone point me in the right direction?

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/07/o2-headphone-amp.html
In your case, probably best obtained here:
http://epiphany-acoustics.co.uk/products-p...hone-amplifier/
(They also make one with the no less respectable USB DAC board named ODAC built-in, model EHP-O2D.)

Quote from: tunamayonaisesalad on
I have had the HD800's for about a year now and found that they took plenty of running in to curb a slightly bright treble character, there's a fine line between detail and fatigue!

Then your HD800s may actually be more to your liking with a bit of extra output impedance. Probably somewhere between 22 and 100 ohms. Fairly easy to add to an existing low-impedance output externally, much harder the other way round. I prefer HD580s on ~75 ohms, too.

Quote from: tunamayonaisesalad on
One question, I run the HD800's from the headphone socket of my Arcam A38 amp, but I think I could get more out of the phones by going for a dedicated headphone amp - does anyone have any recommendations with a budget of about 1500GBP?

That's an awful lot of money for just a headphone amp. You could easily get a Violectric HPA-V200 for that (or maybe two, or an extra DAC-V800). Or about 15 EHP-O2s.

Arcam actually give a meaningful spec for the A38 headphone output (it's rare enough for a manufacturer to do so), with a maximum level of 1.6 Vrms into 600 ohms and an output impedance of 4.7 Ohms. That's close enough to 0 ohms for a HD800, and ought to suffice for more than generous 115+ dB SPL. IOW, pretty much all you'll ever truly need for a HD800. Just needs some kind of contraption to play around with extra series resistance. A piece of protoboard with a headphone jack and a nice 8-pin DIP socket soldered on plus some cabling comes to mind.

Quote from: tunamayonaisesalad on
Sennheiser themselves have launched recently a couple of headphone amps which could be an ideal choice, the HDVD800 in particular looks interesting, I'd be really glad to hear any users feedback on this model.

I've looked at its specs last year. Fixed 43 ohm output resistance - a few more choices would've been nice in this price class. Wide range of gain settings, up to values that strike me as rather excessive. Bit thin in the low-gain department in return - even unity gain may be perfectly sufficient already. (Standard CD player output level is 2 Vrms - that's more than on your Arcam!) Heaps of power and very low distortion, as expected. A whole bunch of connection options, with a fully-featured DAC being included as well. Costs about as much as a good headphone amp + DAC, too...

Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #31 –
Quote
Then your HD800s may actually be more to your liking with a bit of extra output impedance. Probably somewhere between 22 and 100 ohms. Fairly easy to add to an existing low-impedance output externally, much harder the other way round. I prefer HD580s on ~75 ohms, too.
If you like the sound with series resistance, that's fine...

But, note that headphone manufacturers test & specify their headphones with a (nearly) zero impedance source.    That way, the manufacturer can guarantee that everybody is getting the same sound (as long as they are using a "good" device/amplifier.) 

If the manufacturer agrees performance is better with a series resistor, it's easy to add a resistor internally and the Sennheiser engineers are smart enough to figure that out!  (Some manufacturers may do that, but I've never heard of it being done, nor have I ever heard of a manufacturer recommending a series resistor.)

If you have the impedance curve (impedance vs. frequency) you can calculate/predict what any series resistance will do the frequency response curve.  But, adjusting the response by varying the source impedance is a random & limited way of altering the frequency response... So, if you want to alter the frequency response, I recommend an equalizer (or regular 'ol bass & treble controls).

Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The difference is 6 dB because doubled impedance means half the current flow.  Half the current all other things being equal is a 6 dB loss.


However, doubling the impedance at identical current doubles the power (P = I^2 * R), increasing it by 3 dB. Therefore, there is overall a 3 dB decrease in power output.

Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #33 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
But, note that headphone manufacturers test & specify their headphones with a (nearly) zero impedance source.    That way, the manufacturer can guarantee that everybody is getting the same sound (as long as they are using a "good" device/amplifier.)


A high impedance source also increases the distortion of dynamic headphones, as shown here, for example. While the effect might not necessarily be audible in the majority of cases, why add it if it is easily avoidable ?

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #34 –
Think this thread is kinda old but adding to it might be more useful than starting a new thread.

I'm considering purchasing the HD800 and am trying to figure out if my current integrated amp (Marantz PM6003) would have sufficient output at the headphone jack to drive the headphones.

I managed to find out that the headphone output of the PM6003 is rated at 160mW (32ohm load), and the specs are caveated with (when speaker rated output set to 8ohm load).

Just a little confused with all the figures. Based on the quantitative specs that I've managed to find out, would this be sufficient to drive the HD800 well?

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #35 –
Unless you know precisely how loud you like to listen (in dB SPL) or unless you have some other reference such as another pair of headphones with known specs that's not getting loud enough, the only way to know is to try it.

Even if you know the dB level you're shooting for, it can be tricky because of the poor relationship between peak levels and perceived loudness.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #36 –
Quote from: akagi on
Just a little confused with all the figures. Based on the quantitative specs that I've managed to find out, would this be sufficient to drive the HD800 well?

Plug it in, see if it's loud enough.  If it is, you're probably ok. 

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #37 –
Contrary to audiophile mythology, 300 ohm Sennheisers are pretty easy to drive.  You should have plenty of power from any decent mains-powered unit.  A bigger question is the output impedance of your PM6003.  If you find that the Sennheisers have too much lower midrange/upper bass, this may be part of the problem (in addition to Sennheiser's "house sound").

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #38 –
Quote from: theriverlethe on
Contrary to audiophile mythology, 300 ohm Sennheisers are pretty easy to drive.  You should have plenty of power from any decent mains-powered unit.  A bigger question is the output impedance of your PM6003.  If you find that the Sennheisers have too much lower midrange/upper bass, this may be part of the problem (in addition to Sennheiser's "house sound").

Hmm the specs that I found don't seem to have any output impedence listed. I did some research and it seems that a general rule of thumb is that the ideally the output impedance would be 1/8th of the headphone's rated impedance? hence with a 300ohm unit like the HD800, there should be (i guess) some headroom?

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #39 –
Yes, you'd probably have to go over 50 ohms on the output to start noticing a difference, but I've heard of old receivers with higher than 300ohms output impedance on the headphone jack.

Edit:  I have a headphone amp with a 120 ohm output, and it's a fairly subtle effect.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #40 –
I received this advice from a tech support person '...we would recommend an external headphone amplifier for headphones with an impedance higher than 160 ohms for audiophile listening since the amp does not feature an impedance switch for headphones.'

hmm what would an impedance switch do? add or subtract resistors to manage the impedance values?

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #41 –
I'm guessing your Indian friend has no idea what he's talking about.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #42 –
This article from nwavguy may help:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.ca/2011/09/more-power.html

See "Power Specified At A Lower Impedance" and "CALCULATE SPL FROM VOLTAGE".
I got 2.26V as the max voltage out of an amp specified at 160mW (32ohm load).
using the 103 dB/V sensitivity that nwavguy lists for the HD600, that gives 110 dB peak. The HD800 and HD600 sensitivities are about the same according to innerfidelity.

Assuming the above is correct, that should be loud enough.

Remaining questions: what is the noise floor of the headphone jack? what is the output impedance of the amp?
Here is an HD 800 frequency response graph with 0, 100, and 200 ohm amp impedance, showing the bass boost you'll get with high output impedance:
http://cdn.innerfidelity.com/images/141117_Meier_OutputImpedance_Graph_HD800ImpedanceChangeWithOutputImpedance.jpg
(source: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance)

General comment, I've be using an HD600 for over a decade, and don't really worry about what it's plugged in to.
A macbook pro is what I use 99% of the time and it gets loud enough for me, there's no audible noise floor, and afaik the output impedance is a few ohms so there's no forced bass boost. If I listened to a lot of high dynamic range classical I might need to add an inexpensive  headphone amp.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #43 –
Quote
hmm what would an impedance switch do? add or subtract resistors to manage the impedance values?
I would assume it adjusts the level/gain. 

Higher impedance headphones tend  to need more voltage for the same loudness because it takes more voltage to get a given amount of power (Watts or milliwatts) with a higher impedance load.  i.e. If you double the impedance and keep the voltage the same, the power is cut in half.  But, it all depends on the sensitivity/efficiency of the particular headphones...    It's not always  the case that a lower impedance headphone is louder than a higher-impedance headphone.

There's no need to adjust the output impedance of the amplifier...  The amplifier's source impedance can't be too low...  It should be low relative to the load (headphone) impedance.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #44 –
You MIGHT want an amp with more headroom on the volume knob, if you listen to a lot of dynamic music that's often 20-30dB down.  I second the suggestion to just try it.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #45 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
hmm what would an impedance switch do? add or subtract resistors to manage the impedance values?
I would assume it adjusts the level/gain. 

Higher impedance headphones tend  to need more voltage for the same loudness because it takes more voltage to get a given amount of power (Watts or milliwatts) with a higher impedance load.  i.e. If you double the impedance and keep the voltage the same, the power is cut in half.  But, it all depends on the sensitivity/efficiency of the particular headphones...    It's not always  the case that a lower impedance headphone is louder than a higher-impedance headphone.

There's no need to adjust the output impedance of the amplifier...  The amplifier's source impedance can't be too low...  It should be low relative to the load (headphone) impedance.

Thanks Doug, I'll probably just give it a try. The amp still works well after many years so that's still my first choice. :)

Appreciate the inputs on this topic, at the least I learn a little more each time I post.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #46 –
Registered just to post here.

I know this thread is friggin old but this is the most relevant thread I found including HeadFi(I guess no one runs it through a STX/II or don't dare to admit or even ask about it).

So I just bought a pair of HD800S today and running them through my STXII with Burson V5-D opamps. Definitely hearing an upgrade from my previous headphones(HD25II>R70x>HD700). I have the gain setting set to High gain (64-300) as the volume is high enough. Using them at Windows volume 10-20 for music/movie and 30 for Rainbow Six Siege. Not using ASIO and EqualizerAPO anymore as I'm using HD700 for a few days before this.

Was previously using ATH-R70x(470ohm) on Extra high gain(300-600) with similar volume settings 10-20 for music/movie and 30 for R6S.

I have read through the thread and believe that most of you said that the STX is sufficient and further upgrade for the amp is open for discussion. I must agree that the STXII does work well albeit mine being more of a $400 soundcard with the Burson V5 opamps.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #47 –
I can't comment on the Sennheisers but when i hear Burson OP amp my 'boutique crap' bell rings. At least earlier models had poor technical performanmce against generic mass produced OP amps.
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #48 –
The practice of OpAmp swapping is dubious to start with, particularly when done by the layman with no appreciation of the actual operating conditions within the circuit at hand.

But it is especially dubious when the OpAmp drives headphones. The circuit conditions encountered here place higher demands on output drive capability and stability with various loads (partly capacitive and inductive). The effect could be supersonic oscillations, which may only have an indirect and non-obvious effect on audible performance. Ascribing sonic properties to such conditions would be inappropriate, because they mistake a faulty condition for the normal case.

Anyone who insists on trying different OpAmps in a headphone amp needs to be armed with an oscilloscope and should look at the behavior of the circuit under actual loading conditions. The over-reliance on one's audiophile ears is definitely misguided here, and also smacks of arrogance.

And this doesn't even start to address the question of how to do a proper blind test to compare headphones.

Re: Amp for Sennheiser HD800 headphone

Reply #49 –
Quote from: pelmazo on
The practice of OpAmp swapping is dubious to start with, particularly when done by the layman with no appreciation of the actual operating conditions within the circuit at hand.

Agreed. The good news is so much modern gear is SMT and swapping parts in a SMT device is pretty non-trivial.

It is often mission impossible to obtain better sound quality as the original op amp was sonically transparent in the first place.

Quote
But it is especially dubious when the OpAmp drives headphones. The circuit conditions encountered here place higher demands on output drive capability and stability with various loads (partly capacitive and inductive). The effect could be supersonic oscillations, which may only have an indirect and non-obvious effect on audible performance. Ascribing sonic properties to such conditions would be inappropriate, because they mistake a faulty condition for the normal case.

Audiophilia seems obsessed with anything that sounds different, and they do their bogus listening evaluations (their work is so inherently flawed that it isn't even a test!) so badly that they almost always come up with the results they want.

Quote
Anyone who insists on trying different OpAmps in a headphone amp needs to be armed with an oscilloscope and should look at the behavior of the circuit under actual loading conditions. The over-reliance on one's audiophile ears is definitely misguided here, and also smacks of arrogance.

Letsee, it is reasonable to do all the work it now takes to swap an op amp on a SMT circuit board and not be absoultely biased into believing that I haven't just conquered the world of audio? ;-)

For a good example of a workmanlike op amp swap, please look here:

UCA 202 upgrade part 1

UCA 202 upgrade part 2

Quote
And this doesn't even start to address the question of how to do a proper blind test to compare headphones.

Actually this is about headphone amps, and that comparison is just a matter of electrical switching the headphone cable sires:

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