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Topic: Bluetooth lossless (Read 932 times) previous topic - next topic
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Bluetooth lossless

Qualcomm adds Bluetooth Lossless Audio to deliver CD quality 16-bit 44.1kHz lossless audio quality over Bluetooth with the introduction of Qualcomm aptX Lossless audio technology.

aptX Lossless features & specifications:

  • Supports 44.1kHz, 16-bit CD lossless audio quality
  • Designed to scale-up to CD lossless audio based on Bluetooth link quality
  • User can select between CD lossless audio 44.1kHz and 24-bit 96kHz lossy
  • Auto-detects to enable CD lossless audio when the source is lossless audio
  • Mathematically bit-for-bit exact
  • 3-microphone Qualcomm
  • aptX Adaptive works in conjunction with Qualcomm Bluetooth High Speed Link technology to help deliver the required sustainable data throughput. Designed to work seamlessly together, these technologies deliver rates beyond 1Mbit/s yet smoothly scale down to 140kbits/s in congested RF environments to minimize any audio dropouts or glitches for a consistent and reliable listening experience.
  • Bluetooth Low Energy
  • Bluetooth 5.3
    • Bluetooth Data Rate:
      • 3 Mbps EDR
      • 2 Mbps EDR
      • 1 Mbps BR

https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2021/09/qualcomm-adds-bluetooth-lossless-audio-technology-snapdragon-sound

https://www.qualcomm.com/products/application/audio/qualcomm-s3-sound-platform

https://www.qualcomm.com/products/application/audio/qualcomm-s5-sound-platform

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #1
Designed to work seamlessly together, these technologies deliver rates beyond 1Mbit/s yet smoothly scale down to 140kbits/s
Not lossless. Classic.
Helix 5.2.1 -X2 -A1 -U2 -V150 -HF2 (maikmerten you are POG)
lossyFLAC Standard

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #2
Designed to work seamlessly together, these technologies deliver rates beyond 1Mbit/s yet smoothly scale down to 140kbits/s
Not lossless. Classic.

Did you read the other links? With the new sound platform at Bluetooth 5.3 is now posible! :)

The first new is when Qualcomm launched the codec, the following are updated products that can handle the other data rates.

I almost can't wait for all Bluetooth equipment upgrade to 5.3 or upper version and for all Bluetooth audio products support lossless audio.

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #3
Did you read the other links?
Yes :)

It can't be lossless if it's a scalable codec that aims for connection quality.

Also it's pure logic that you need 2mbps speed for transmitting lossless 16/44.1 because your link needs to be ready to transmit signal that can't be compressed at all (stereo white noise), and that's 1.4 mbps, + you need headroom for connection stability during this kind of signal. If they claim 1mbps as maximum bitrate for a codec, you may be perfectly sure it's not lossless. And when it's "scalable"...

Also, I'm not hyped. Why would you even need lossless in a Bluetooth? It's a perfect area for TOS#8 compliance, people should do that.

Also, screw Qualcomm, they're greedy dorks who are responsible for making AAC being considered as a bad quality codec in Android infrastructure.
Helix 5.2.1 -X2 -A1 -U2 -V150 -HF2 (maikmerten you are POG)
lossyFLAC Standard

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #4
Why would you even need lossless in a Bluetooth?

Because Spotify, YouTube and many songs that I have are lossy. When I playback these by Bluetooth sound awful.

It can't be lossless if it's a scalable codec that aims for connection quality.

Unfortunately, it is need a adaptive codec when are too far or are much noise by other 2.4Ghz devices like Bluetooth connections, Wi-Fi and so on.

I am not Qualcomm fan. But if they already sell a product that is lossless or can be lossless depending by connection quality or environmental noise, it would be fraud post a product like these and it would be illegal.

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #5
When I playback these by Bluetooth sound awful.
Are you sure you're not violating TOS#8 here? Every BT codec I personally know avoids generation loss pretty much successfully. SBC, aptX series and LHDC avoid it by design because they're all subband, LDAC avoids it because of very high bitrate, and AAC-LC is... I don't know the details, but it doesn't do generation loss as well... SOMEHOW

Unfortunately, it is need a adaptive codec when are too far or are much noise by other 2.4Ghz devices like Bluetooth connections, Wi-Fi and so on.
I know that, it's technically reasonable to make a scalable codec for Bluetooth. Thing is - you can't call codec lossless if it is scalable. "Yeah it's lossless but only sometimes, only on quiet passages and only when 2.4 ghz devices are not around"? That's not how it works, lossless is lossless.

I am not Qualcomm fan. But if they already sell a product that is lossless or can be lossless depending by connection quality or environmental noise, it would be fraud post a product like these and it would be illegal.
They have already been selling aptX HD claiming it's 24 bit but it's actually not. It's their style because nobody cares (and nobody shouldn't actually, you need good lossy for BT, not lossless).
Helix 5.2.1 -X2 -A1 -U2 -V150 -HF2 (maikmerten you are POG)
lossyFLAC Standard

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #6
It sounds really awful when you convert from lossy audio to another lossy format. This has been written and debated endlessly here.

I have a Belkin Bluetooth to TRS device that only supports SBC and it sounds horrible connected to my LG stereo when I play Yanni Live at The Acropolis in FLAC from my Android.

In my "classic" VW Golf 2003 with my Pioneer CD stereo via the AAC of my Android the old reloaded programs from iVoox sound horrible, which were originally in RM, MP3 or WMA no higher than 192kbps.

My FLAC files through my Android's AAC Bluethoot sound fine on my car stereo.

I've never had a chance to test Qualcomm or Sony Bluetooth codecs.

Fortunately, now the devices have enough space for lossless audio files and the Bluetooth bandwidth can now be taken advantage of since with version 5.3 it includes beamforming and the devices can negotiate which communication channel to use to avoid problems in the connection.

As far as I know, Bluetooth and Wi-Fi connections downgrade the version of the connection to the equipment working with the oldest version .

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #7
This has been written and debated endlessly here.
No, it hasn't.

My FLAC files through my Android's AAC Bluethoot sound fine on my car stereo.
Phone model?

Anyway let me clarify the thing - BT codecs do NOT downgrade quality in a generation loss way. There's no reason to avoid throwing lossy files at them just because BT codecs are also lossy, they do not downgrade quality in the way you may think. Storing lossless music on a phone for avoiding BT codecs recompression artifacts is just another audiofoolery ritual. And when you say you hear "awful sound" because you play lossy through lossy, you violate https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=TOS_8 . Trust me, you're not the only guy on this forum using Bluetooth audio.
Helix 5.2.1 -X2 -A1 -U2 -V150 -HF2 (maikmerten you are POG)
lossyFLAC Standard

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #8
Yes, I remember old posts here about comparing between lossy codecs and I read many that tell this about lossy conversion between lossy codecs. FB2K warns when someone wants to convert between lossy codecs.

Yes, I have read the Terms of Service here when I created my account here. Moderators are free to determine if I am not following you and can take the best course of action.

 I just want to share my knowledge, I find this to be a great forum with good information and I can contribute.

Please, it is to learn and debate, not to talk about whether or not someone cares the TOS. Going off topic to mention to me that I don't follow the terms of service is also considered a violation of the TOS. I appreciate you mentioning it to me but it is not to publish it for everyone, better say it in private and report it to the moderators if you consider it pertinent.

Now, how do you propose to do a double blind test from my hardware?  And even if I could do it, that would only show that I am capable and that this product would be an excellent option for me.

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #9
Now, how do you propose to do a double blind test from my hardware?
Use a Bluetooth receiver that can work as USB-DAC, use a sound interface capable of accurately recording the signal from analog inputs, record all possible variants and then just ABX them through FB2K as usual. I have written all of the posts above because I do have all this stuff and I have done my tests.

I was saying about TOS#8 because you're completely wrong about your approach towards "lossy to lossy" conversion.

P.S. What's your phone model that plays AAC "fine"? Android phones being able to encode AAC through Bluetooth with decent sound quality are pretty much exotic.
Helix 5.2.1 -X2 -A1 -U2 -V150 -HF2 (maikmerten you are POG)
lossyFLAC Standard

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #10
In some cases lossless codecs are required for playback.  Do the test with the fatboy.wv file here, once I tried it with the maximum configuration of each format that FB2K can natively support and in all of them it is wrong except WavPack.

I can't test it on every device to listen if there are any differences because some only have Bluetooth.

 

Re: Bluetooth lossless

Reply #11
Do the test with the fatboy.wv file
Opus 192 kbps through SBC gives 100% transparency on fatboy, I can say that for sure.
Helix 5.2.1 -X2 -A1 -U2 -V150 -HF2 (maikmerten you are POG)
lossyFLAC Standard