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Topic: [SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit) (Read 9520 times) previous topic - next topic
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[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Hi.
When I compare:
44K: I hear hiss in drums.
192K: hiss sound will be filtered.

Please explain, thanks.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #1 –
Before the other guys get on your case I would ask you PLEASE to include a bit more information.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #2 –
OK, sorry.
specs:
win 7 64.
speaker: Logitech Z313
sound: ALC272
player: foobar2k v1.1.5 (default settings).
everything is up to date.
sample types: lossy & lossless.


[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #3 –
I am sorry, but you didn't say anything.

In what format is original drum sample, how did you get 192 kHz sample, and how did you get 44.1 kHz sample? Which one of them is lossless, and which one is lossy? Which sound card do you have, and what output properties are set up in Control Panel?
Error 404; signature server not available.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #4 –
lossy: mp3: 128kbps, 44khz, 16 bit
lossless: 44khz, 16 bit.
sorry, i forgot: realtek HD ALC272.
foo output settings: renderer: realtek hd audio
realtek settings: like win 7 settings. all effects are off.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #5 –
So its still not really clear what you're doing but I'll take a shot.  Are you playing the same file with your PC set to resample to different sampling rates and finding that some work better then others?

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Nothbeve on
lossy: mp3: 128kbps, 44khz, 16 bit
lossless: 44khz, 16 bit.
sorry, i forgot: realtek HD ALC272.
foo output settings: renderer: realtek hd audio
realtek settings: like win 7 settings. all effects are off.



Looks like you have no clue of what you're doing.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Batman321 on
Quote from: Nothbeve on
lossy: mp3: 128kbps, 44khz, 16 bit
lossless: 44khz, 16 bit.
sorry, i forgot: realtek HD ALC272.
foo output settings: renderer: realtek hd audio
realtek settings: like win 7 settings. all effects are off.



Looks like you have no clue of what you're doing.

@Batman321:
That seems a bit snippy and premature.  English may not be their first language, and they may not have much experience posting on forms when asking for help.  So far we just have a lack of information which is not enough to judge their level of aptitude towards audio only their level of aptitude when posting on this board.

@Nothbeve:
Are you:
  Comparing 2 files?
  Are the files of the same sample?
  If so, how were these files generated?
  Did you make the files?
  Were they both generated using the same equipment?
  If it's one file what changes are you making in your software to hear the difference?
  When you say "hiss" is it a constant hiss while playing the file or does it happen only when the drum is struck?
  Do other files give you the same 'hiss'?
   

If the file is not copyrighted can you post it somewhere where others can access it?

(if it is copyrighted, is he allowed to post a sample of it? How long can the sample be (i think that's in the TOS someplace)

Also, some drum sounds can just sound hissy (brushes are used to get this effect, i think (note: i'm not a drummer). I've heard that effect used in jazz a lot.

Thanks
Music lover and recovering high end audiophile

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #8 –
@ saratoga: i just want to know: is 192khz really better than 44khz?
i listen to wide range of rock, rnb, drums & base & electronic music (most mp3, min: 128k, max 320k) & compare 44k to 192k (drm free of course).
do you have any moderate post-grunge, alt rock/metal, punk & rnb samples (moderate kick, bass & drums), (lossless only please)?

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Nothbeve on
@ saratoga: i just want to know: is 192khz really better than 44khz?

It's not, unless you are a dog, a cat, a bat, a dolphin, a rat, or another animal with high-frequency hearing limit above 20 kHz.

Quote from: Nothbeve on
(most mp3, min: 128k, max 320k)

I bet the difference between 128 kbps mp3 and 320 kbps mp3, although in many cases hardly noticeable, is much more likely to be perceived than difference between 44.1 and 192 kHz sampling (assuming that the conversion has been done properly).
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #10 –
do you have any 20khz, 24/32 bit sample?

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #11 –
Did you actually read our rules when you registered, specifically #8?
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3974

@BearcatSandor, the one about which you are inquiring is #9.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Nothbeve on
Hi.
When I compare:
44K: I hear hiss in drums.
192K: hiss sound will be filtered.

Please explain, thanks.


I knew they would be asking tons of questions...They really all seem to be a bunch of ok guys...but they are VERY serious about their rules(which are there to make things better for a newbie coming in with questions) If you post here with the proper info and you are following the TOS.(rules)You will find MANY people willing to help.The help you receive is top notch and COMPLETELY UNBIASED...One hell of a great resource . I suggest you do a search and find out what has been posted in the past on this website concerning bit rate above 16/44. What I have read so far has really opened up my eyes AND EARS.
Peace

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #13 –
Funny thread 

I don't know if I dreamt it or I really did read this #!@

Gargamel, please don't bite me

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #14 –
Quote from: greynol on
@BearcatSandor, the one about which you are inquiring is #9.

Thanks. I knew i had seen that somewhere and it was further down in the expansions on the rules.

As far as the 24/192 making a audible difference or not, i'd think that the bit depth and the bit rate would be two separate issues as to whether a difference was detectable.  I have read (perhaps here) that it's better to *work* in 24-bits but that upon playback it may not make a difference.

I've also read that even though we can't consciously hear past 20 khz, the ear does react at those higher frequencies and therefore it has an effect on how we perceive sound if those sounds are captured in the recording (and presumably played back on tweeters that can reproduce it).  I have not read of any scientific studies of it, i've just seen things like "it is said that...scientists say.." with no citations ever given.

If it is true that 48, 96, 192 makes a difference to how we perceive/feel about the music, who's to say that it's the sound making that difference and not how we feel about that rate or the test we're in.

So it's up to you Nothbeve whether your perception of it making a difference (true or not) is worth the hard drive space and cpu cycles.  I wish we had firm answers on this, but since this is probably the 100th thread on this form about it, i don't think we do.

I still don't know the answer for me.  I'll be 39 soon, so i imagine it will be less and less of an issue for me anyhow :")

Music lover and recovering high end audiophile

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #15 –
Quote from: BearcatSandor on
As far as the 24/192 making a audible difference or not, i'd think that the bit depth and the bit rate would be two separate issues as to whether a difference was detectable.

Obviously, because they determine boundaries for different parameters of the signal: the bit depth for the dynamic range, and the sampling frequency (not bit rate, which is a different story) for bandwidth.


Quote from: BearcatSandor on
I have read (perhaps here) that it's better to *work* in 24-bits but that upon playback it may not make a difference.

Or - even better - in 32-bit float. The reason is that with multiple editing operations rounding error may accumulate to audible levels if you work in 16-bit. 24-bit provide a safety margin for that, 32-bit float also protects against clipping resulting from exceeding 0 dBfs in the processing chain.


Quote from: BearcatSandor on
I've also read that even though we can't consciously hear past 20 khz, the ear does react at those higher frequencies and therefore it has an effect on how we perceive sound if those sounds are captured in the recording (and presumably played back on tweeters that can reproduce it).  I have not read of any scientific studies of it, i've just seen things like "it is said that...scientists say.." with no citations ever given.


There were at least two papers, first author Oohashi. They showed differences in EEG patterns and in perception depending on presence of content above 22(or so) kHz. I am not sure if anyone has ever replicated this result.

Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #16 –
If the OP is hearing differences it is due to a bad resampling implementation or something else that was either broken or poorly designed.  There is nothing about a 44.1kHz sample rate that prohibits it from giving the same sonic accuracy to human ears as something higher, unless those human ears can hear beyond 22kHz and the content being played actually has energy beyond that and is not being masked by energy in lower frequencies.

16 vs. 24 is not as cut-and-dry, though anyone claiming night and day differences can and should be summarily dismissed, IMHO.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #17 –
Quote from: pawelq on
Quote from: BearcatSandor on
I have read (perhaps here) that it's better to *work* in 24-bits but that upon playback it may not make a difference.

Quote from: pawelq link=msg=0 date=
Or - even better - in 32-bit float. The reason is that with multiple editing operations rounding error may accumulate to audible levels if you work in 16-bit. 24-bit provide a safety margin for that, 32-bit float also protects against clipping resulting from exceeding 0 dBfs in the processing chain.

If one works in 24/32 bit because rounding errors might accumulate to the level of audibility, couldn't they also occur when writing back out to 16-bit?

Quote from: BearcatSandor on
I've also read that even though we can't consciously hear past 20 khz, the ear does react at those higher frequencies and therefore it has an effect on how we perceive sound if those sounds are captured in the recording (and presumably played back on tweeters that can reproduce it).  I have not read of any scientific studies of it, i've just seen things like "it is said that...scientists say.." with no citations ever given.


Quote from: pawelq link=msg=0 date=
There were at least two papers, first author Oohashi. They showed differences in EEG patterns and in perception depending on presence of content above 22(or so) kHz. I am not sure if anyone has ever replicated this result.

Thanks! I'll see if i can find those papers and read them.
Music lover and recovering high end audiophile

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #18 –
Quote from: pawelq on
There were at least two papers, first author Oohashi. They showed differences in EEG patterns and in perception depending on presence of content above 22(or so) kHz. I am not sure if anyone has ever replicated this result.

First: That paper never showed audability of frequencies higher than 22kHz (or so)
Second: The EEG patterns changed only after 20 seconds. (You get hit by my fist and fall down after 20 seconds  )
Third: There was a fixed pattern in witch the participants got their stimulus. Where it would be better to have a truly random pattern.

No one has ever repeated the results exept Mr Oohashi.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #19 –
I donno how i screwed up the quoting tags above but what i wanted to ask was:

If one works in 24/32-bit because rounding errors might accumulate to the level of audibility using 16-bit, couldn't they also occur when writing back out to 16-bit? If so doesn't that make 24-bit media more desirable?
Music lover and recovering high end audiophile

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #20 –
Quote from: BearcatSandor on
If one works in 24/32 bit because rounding errors might accumulate to the level of audibility, couldn't they also occur when writing back out to 16-bit?

There won't be any rounding errors, though there is error associated with the loss of resolution resulting from the loss of bit-depth.  This error will only accumulate if the process of bit reduction is done more than once.

This is also where dither comes into play which removes any correlation between the error and the signal by adding noise, reducing any possible audible distortion.  It is generally understood that this added noise actually improves perceived dynamic range and may only be heard during faint levels of audio, if at all.  This noise is at the least significant bit requiring large amounts of gain to be heard, enough gain that prolonged exposure to a full-scale signal would undoubtedly cause permanent damage to your hearing.  Furthermore this noise can be shaped so that it falls in a band of frequency where your ears are less sensitive, making it all the more difficult to detect.

There is also the question as to whether the bits being discarded actually contain something other than noise that is not correlated to the actual audio signal.

As usual I welcome any correction/simplification to what I have written by anyone better versed at this than I am.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Dirk95100 on
No one has ever repeated the results exept Mr Oohashi.

Did he even successfully repeat his own results at a later time?

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #22 –
sorry, but i only trust traditional method: listening with headphone.
new test: lossless track: 44khz, 16 bit stereo. (foo resampler, sony earbud)
renderer: 24 bit.
result:
22khz: bad quality, of course.
32khz: sound quality is ok.
44khz: a bit wider range of high frequency, somewhat noticeable comparing with 32khz.
48 to 192khz: distortion cut (looks like high dithering).

i always focus on high frequencies (like drums). (tees tees effect)
most of people hear low frequencies very good, but high...
please upload your high quality lossless samples.
thanks

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #23 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Dirk95100 on
No one has ever repeated the results exept Mr Oohashi.

Did he even successfully repeat his own results at a later time?


The role of biological system other than auditory air-conduction in the emergence of the hypersonic effect

This Wiki page sums it up nicely.

Propper bad science that hypersonic effect if you ask me. But lots and lots of audio professionals eat it like hot cake.

[SINA/CPKTV-LIKE NONSENSE] Comparing 44KHz with 192KHz (24 Bit)

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Nothbeve on
sorry, but i only trust traditional method: listening with headphone.

Sorry, but we only trust methods compliant with this post:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=16295

If you cannot comply then please consider using another forum.

Quote from: Nothbeve on
please upload your high quality lossless samples.

Why are you asking us for samples, seeing that you are the one who is having the problem?  Shouldn't you be the one providing samples???