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Topic: DVD-R vs. CDR (Read 19406 times) previous topic - next topic
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DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #25 –
Quote
Taiyo Yuden from 98 (Sony) --> No C2 errors, small rate of C1 errors (Max 60, ave 1.07).

Sony seems to [have] be[en] a decent brand.  The actual Sony manufactured discs are similar rates from similar ages...

Quote
Verbatim DataLifePlus (MetalAzo) --> the last 5 minutes where unreadable inmediately after burn.
This test was done in January 2003 with a LiteOn 32123S.

The older Lite-ons (<40x)?  have problems with the DataLifePlus discs.  I know my 24x one does, and someone reported a while back that the 'Grade B' Datalife discs actually gave lower error rates.

Maybe there is a firmware to upgrade?  I'll have a sniff

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #27 –
Quote
Has anyone reported any dead DVDR's yet?

That is the real question.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #28 –
Quote
Pio: any dead TYs yet?

Not to my knowledge, but I left Afterdawn, CD Freaks and CDR Labs a bit, recently.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #29 –
Quote
That is the real question.

The fact that upon a quick glance around, I cannot find any reports of any (other than standard 'didnt burn it right - dont work' stuff).  This is a very good sign in itself; as Pio stated, some CDR's die within days / weeks. We'd have heard about it if DVDR's had already gone belly-up.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #30 –
would'nt Flash memory be the most reliable storage medium? I know it would be expensive though. DVD-RAM is the most reliable disc storage medium, its protected in a case and offers very good defect mangement and can be used like a Hard Drive, and i think there is double sided DVD-RAM which holds about 9.6 gb ?

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #31 –
Quote
would'nt Flash memory be the most reliable storage medium? I know it would be expensive though. DVD-RAM is the most reliable disc storage medium, its protected in a case and offers very good defect mangement and can be used like a Hard Drive, and i think there is double sided DVD-RAM which holds about 9.6 gb ?

protected in a case? how is that? i have a maxell DVD-RAM here, and it looks like a DVD-R/RW ... why would it be more reliable?

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #32 –
More reliable becus its in a case!!! you can take it out of the case though and DVD-RAM was designed to be the most reliable. This from  taken from another site.

Although a tremendous amount of data is packed into a small space, you shouldn't experience any problems with scratches and other physical damage. In the first place, the media is packaged in a tough plastic cartridge. The Type 1 media remains in that cartridge forever; the Type 2 can be removed and can be used in some dual purpose CD/DVD drives. But more importantly, the DVD error correction is said to be 10 times better than that used with CDROM's. When used for backup, where there would be no reason to ever remove the media from the cartridge, errors should be effectively non-existent.

Because of the extreme expected life (100,000 writes is 273 years of daily backup!), media cost should be far lower than tape (which typically will survive only a few hundred writes) - in fact, these units could pay for themselves in just a few years in many locations.

Looks like a big floppy -> http://www.digital-photography.org/DVD-RAM...ProDirect_2.jpg

blueray disc -> http://www.cdrinfo.com/Images/Uploaded/max...luRay_discs.jpg

Some info here http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/S...%2DRAM&Series=0

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #33 –
Since I'm quite pleased with how my cdr's have served me (since 1998), with close to <5 media failed over more then 1000 burnt, I want to know just one thing:

On a theoretical level only, if I would store 2 discs, one is cdr, the other dvd-r, in an normal storage condition (aka, no scratches, no extreme conditions like exposure to sunlight, etc) and both media's are of the same production quality, will the dvd-r will perform worse/better/or the same as the cdr will?
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

- Abraham Lincoln

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #34 –
hard to say. even if the only difference is dye degradation there's more than simply that to consider. The DVD's "pits" and track is smaller and more closely spaced, so 'per area' it is more susceptible to dye degradation. But it also has more data redundancy in its error correction scheme than the CD does.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #35 –
Quote
I know it would be expensive though. DVD-RAM is the most reliable disc storage medium, its protected in a case

dvd-ram is not always in a case.  they have regular discs also.  just clarification.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #36 –
Here's some interesting information about the topic from Australian Personal Computer Magazine - tests and technical/economical backgrounds.

One intersting detail (out of many):
Quote
The discs were tested with a CD Associates CIDA3000, a high-end analyser used in the CD manufacturing industry.
Horlings said the three bad brands, all Dutch generics, have an exceptionally high error rate corresponding with the location of logos and other graphic elements printed on the disc.
Let's suppose that rain washes out a picnic. Who is feeling negative? The rain? Or YOU? What's causing the negative feeling? The rain or your reaction? - Anthony De Mello

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #37 –
Quote
Has anyone reported any dead DVDR's yet?

Memorex DVD-Rs. one bad experience with an entire 5-pack, but will never buy their DVD-Rs again.

i bought a 5 pack just when DVD-Rs were dropping in price (woo! $6 a disc! what a deal!), i'd say fall/winter; none readable today. one even failed as the lead-in was being written.

all the others burnt around the same time (yeah, my sorry ass using my friend's DVD burner ), Sony, Fuji, TDK (possibly fakes), a near smooth diagonal line in CD Speed a month or so ago. all burnt at 1x on an A04. the only thing to note would be that all i burnt were DVD-Videos, but that shouldn't make a difference. they're burnt no differently AFAIK than data, unlike VCD/SVCD which is burnt with less ECC but with an extra 100 megs gained.

now that i have a standalone DVD player that can read just about anything thrown at it (an Apex AD-1201 and fugly as hell) i don't have to worry so much about buying specific media, but i was buying Verbatims (for school projects) and Accu 1x (Lead Data when read by DVD Decrypter) as cheapies for any other DVD-Video. I still buy Accu but am trying out Ritek G03 for DVD-Video and other stuff i don't entirely mind losing, and Ritek G04 (4X) for Important Stuff

just so you know, it's prolly best to only burn 3.8 gigs or so, that's where cheapies tend to get unreliable (if the disc isn't entirely, anyways), and on the very rare occasion (like 1 in 20 or 30) the 4X Riteks.

as for Prodisc, i've heard enough to make me not want to use them, no to mention the video production company i'm interning at has had a few bad discs (even mastered a movie on one of them and couldn't figure out what the DVD duplicator robot keep spitting discs onto the floor).

www.dvdrhelp.com > dvd media >> taken with a grain of salt, of course.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #38 –
I've gotten into the habit of adding an MD5 checksum file to every disc I burn. I always run the MD5 check after the burn process to make sure everything is OK.

Most of the bad CDRs I have had were probably bad right from the start,  so maybe this will protect me from that. I hope.
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #39 –
Partial solution -- buy only high quality CD-R (and DVD-R) media at premium prices, perhaps in bulk to save some money (best sources are online, imo).  Chances are, this media will last longer and have lower error rates.  If your data is important to you... what can I say...

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #40 –
If someone wants the results of the last c't mag review, they tested DVD+R/RW's and DVD-R/RW's with an expensive hardware tester.

All DVD+R media is more or less good, because of the rather strict testing conditions of Philips Licensing. Most of the DVD+Rs/DVD+RWs available are manufactured by Ricoh, followed by Taiyo Yuden. Mitsubishi also makes some (Verbatim), which are usable too.

DVD-R discs are much more diverse. On one hand, good results from Mitsubishi (Maxell DVD-RW 2x) or TDK (TDK DVD-RW 2x) media, but shockingly bad results from Princo (Princo DVD-RW 2x) or Mitsui (MAM DVD-R 4x). Add to that that even media that is recommended by several drive manufacturers has completely different results in three different drives (bad burn / very good burn / very bad burn, for instance). It seems that the firmwares of some drives are not very optimized yet.

Also, c't found out that especially DVD+RW's should be recorded very even and not partially. If it's always burned only partially, the drive can't adjust the write strategy accordingly (Running-OPC), because the dye properties of previously written vs. previously unwritten parts of the disc are too different. Also, 1000x rewrite is a myth, since the error rates are way beyond spec after that. Realistic is 500x rewrite.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #41 –
have you actually sat there and burned/erased a disc 1000 times?

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #42 –
my worst experience with shitty cdrs was with PLATINUM. they were partialy or completely unreadable a few month after burning them. my best experience was a VERBATIM, burned 6 years ago and not one damaged sector today.
i do also think about getting a dvd burner soon, so it interests me too, how reliable dvd+/-rs are. not how many scratches they tolerate before they can't be read anymore, but how long the material stays readable..

-andy-

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #43 –
Quote
have you actually sat there and burned/erased a disc 1000 times?

Yes, they did, with all DVD+RW's and DVD-RW's, with 400 MB of data burned 1000 times each.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #44 –
Chip, a PC magazine in Germany had a test of 4x DVD in 11/2003.
They made tests in a climatic chamber to simulate a 3 year aging (100h at 80°C and 85% air moisture).
They measured the inner, center and outer area of the DVDs and compared the errors when the DVD was fresh and after 3 years.
Unfortunately they don´t have the complete test from the magazine online, but the charts.

CHIP DVD chart
uncheck "nur Top Ten anzeigen" or click  "alle" inthe left lower corner to see all results.

The values column under "Messtech." are representing the reliability.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #45 –
Quote
They made tests in a climatic chamber to simulate a 3 year aging (100h at 80°C and 85% air moisture).
They measured the inner, center and outer area of the DVDs and compared the errors when the DVD was fresh and after 3 years.

We must not trust these kind of tests. We saw that for CDRs, they lead to a lifetime estimation up to 50 times the real number.

They give 70 to 200 years, while CDRs can often last less than 4 years.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #46 –
Quote
I've gotten into the habit of adding an MD5 checksum file to every disc I burn. I always run the MD5 check after the burn process to make sure everything is OK.

Most of the bad CDRs I have had were probably bad right from the start,  so maybe this will protect me from that. I hope.

could you explain how you do this?

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #47 –
I have the directory structure setup on the hard drive. I use some MD5 software to scan every file and every directory, which then creates the MD5 file in the directory root. I burn that file to the DVD with everything else.

After the burn is done, I run that MD5 file, from the DVD, and it scans thorugh every file on the DVD and verifies it.

Kinda slow. A full DVD will take about 10 minutes to verify on my system.

Without plugging any particular software, this is one I have used for this:

http://www.irnis.net/soft/acsv/acsv_main.gif

Edit: URL
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #48 –
Quote
(...) shockingly bad results from Princo (Princo DVD-RW 2x) or Mitsui (MAM DVD-R 4x).

Oh damn, I wish I'd read that before I ordered a pack of exactly those Mitsui discs a couple of weeks ago.

That'll teach me to automatically assume "Mitsui = TEH QUALITEY" without any research in the future...
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.

DVD-R vs. CDR

Reply #49 –
Quote
All DVD+R media is more or less good, because of the rather strict testing conditions of Philips Licensing. Most of the DVD+Rs/DVD+RWs available are manufactured by Ricoh, followed by Taiyo Yuden. Mitsubishi also makes some (Verbatim), which are usable too.

Err.... Not that I doubt your results or anything, but I was under the impression that Taiyo Yuden made DVD-Rs, not DVD+Rs.