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Topic: o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2 (Read 19607 times) previous topic - next topic
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o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Hi, guys!
I want to buy DAC+AMP instead of internal sound card of my lenovo y500. I'm looking at jds labs o2+odac or schiit modi2+magni2.
My earphones are CIEM with 10 BA drivers per ear with sensitivity (500 Hz): 111 dB/mVt and impedance(500 Hz): 16.5 Ohm, and they were designed for sources with near zero impedance. Also, I have ATH-M50s and DT990 Pro 250Ohm as well.
How do you think which combo will be better for these cans?
I like Schiit M&M because of their appearance:) But I never heard or used any of these.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #1 –
It depends on what you want to achieve. What is wrong with the output built into the Lenovo? Or what would be wrong with something much less expensive like this?

http://www.adj.com/audio-genie-pro

As long as you do not state what your intentions are and what is wrong with your current setup, it is hard to give any solid piece of advice.

Music: sounds arranged such that they construct feelings.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #2 –
Quote from: ktf on
It depends on what you want to achieve. What is wrong with the output built into the Lenovo? Or what would be wrong with something much less expensive like this?

http://www.adj.com/audio-genie-pro

As long as you do not state what your intentions are and what is wrong with your current setup, it is hard to give any solid piece of advice.


The main reason why I want external solution is that, it seems, lenovo output has high impedance and with my CIEMs it sounds "bassless" (looks like bass rolloff). With other headphones I hear no difference. So I'm looking to solution with very low output impedance.

Never heard about Audio Genie Pro...

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #3 –
Quote from: PDVJAM on
I want to buy DAC+AMP instead of internal sound card of my lenovo y500.


Why?

Quote
I'm looking at jds labs o2+odac or schiit modi2+magni2.


I'm looking for a good description of the problem.  Good solutions proceed from good requirements.

First and foremost is a good description of what is subjectively wrong with your current situation.

You seem to be saying that one problem is that your CIEM's sound bassless, but without information about how they work with an actual low impedance headphone amp, that's just a free floating data point.

Usually a high source impedance headphone amp interacts with the typical bass impedance rise in most headphones to create excessive bass. This suggests that a low impedance source might be less than helpful.

OTOH a headphone jack that has small blocking capacitors (happens sometimes) usually works in the exact opposite direction and rolls off the bass with low impedance phones. This time the low impedance source headphone amp can work brilliantly and address the lack of bass.

Since we have no actual impedance curve for the phones or source impedance info for the laptop we have little but speculation to work with.

Quote
My earphones are CIEM with 10 BA drivers per ear with sensitivity (500 Hz): 111 dB/mVt and impedance(500 Hz): 16.5 Ohm, and they were designed for sources with near zero impedance.


The above less helpful than it could be because CIEM is in this context an acronym for Custom In Ear Monitors.  It would be nice to have an impedance curve, instead of a one frequency spec.

However the one frequency spec supports your idea that a headphone amp designed to drive low impedance headphones could be a good idea. But the evidence is weak.

Quote
Also, I have ATH-M50s and DT990 Pro 250Ohm as well.


That's a pretty diverse group of headphones to drive. I have ATH-M50s and find them easy enough to drive.  A lot depends on your preferred listening levels.

Quote
How do you think which combo will be better for these cans?
I like Schiit M&M because of their appearance:) But I never heard or used any of these.


A good, reasonable cost (under $50) high performance, highly convenient starting point might be a Topping NX-1 headphone amp working with the audio interface in your laptop.  The NX-1 leverages the OK audio interface in your laptop with a headphone amp that provides some gain for use with the high impedance phones (DT 990)  and a robust low impedance source for the ca. 16 ohm phones.

To me, $50 is pin money, but $300 is not.

If you need to provide power line power to the NX-1, a separate generic USB power supply will do the job. It runs for about 100 hours or more between recharging. It is a solid brick of a device, sort of like the modern version of a monoblock (although it is stereo).

I actually have several of these in use with both portable players and desktop PCs.  I don't happen to use any headphone amp at all with my Lenovo laptop because it works well all by itself  with the Sennheiser HD 380 headphones that I generally use with it.

There is a technical review of the NX-1  here: Toipping NX-1 Headphone amp review link

There is also a NX2 with a built in USB DAC. I can't find any technical reviews so its mystery meat as far as I'm concerned.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #4 –
Either O2 or Magni2 would work.

What's important, since you have such different head/earphones, is that you have a gain switch. With low gain you have a usable volume control with sensitive IEMs, with high gain you can blow your ears even with the DT990s.

I'm not sure if you really need a DAC.
"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #5 –
The ODAC/O2 vs. a brand that damages headphones. . . tough choice.
FLAC -> JDS Labs ODAC/O2 -> Sennheiser HD 650 (equalized)

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #6 –
Hah, I think they have circumvented the problem of large DC outputs a while ago by adding muting relays.

Here:
Quote
So you probably cheaped out and left the protection off this amp, or something stupid like that, right?
No. Magni 2 and Magni 2 Uber have relay mute for delayed startup and fast shut-down. You can leave your headphones plugged in all the time.

!!
"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #7 –
Quote from: xnor on
Hah, I think they have circumvented the problem of large DC outputs a while ago by adding muting relays.


If the Magni board has protection relays, they seem well disguised:



Why they would be needed escapes me.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #8 –
SMD relays do not look like those chunky transparent relays.

Here's why their amps need them:
Schiit Asgard on/off cycle K702 [youtube]

and: nwavguy blog (read the first 6 bullet points or so)
"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #9 –
O2 will also output DC if you have the batteries removed (typical for units with ODAC installed in the same cabinet) and power it down by unplugging the AC brick. If you do it the way it's supposed to be done, via the power switch, it's fine.

BTW, Magni does indeed seem to have a relay: It's the black device labelled "K1".

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #10 –
Quote from: 4season on
O2 will also output DC if you have the batteries removed (typical for units with ODAC installed in the same cabinet) and power it down by unplugging the AC brick. If you do it the way it's supposed to be done, via the power switch, it's fine.

BTW, Magni does indeed seem to have a relay: It's the black device labelled "K1".



Yes, on second look that appears to be a standard modern PC board mounted relay, logically mounted by the headphone jack.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #11 –
G5V-2_0911-11924.pdf
"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #13 –
Depends who you ask, rational or irrational people.
"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #15 –
Those schiit dac+amp solutions look nice for the money. It certainly would be a nice improvement over the laptop audio output. You could try some chinese brands like Little dot or Audio-gd, but it will be a little bit more expensive.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #16 –
Quote from: xnor on
Depends who you ask, rational or irrational people.


Here's a good recent example:

Slate: "I, Audiophile"

Quote
"First, most A/B boxes have their own sound, due to poor circuitry; it’s not a pure listening test."


While it is even just on its face an unreasonable hyper-generality, I see it as the consequence of fallacious education from biased sources, not irrational thinking.

I suspect this guy's head would explode if we told him about A/B tests that don't involve any A/B boxes at all. ;-)

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #17 –
Quote from: MusicExp on
Those schiit dac+amp solutions look nice for the money.


I don't see it. Schitt does seem to put a lot of parts into boxes that run around $100. I see mostly overkill and boutique engineering. The big tip off: all those bottles. :-(

Quote
It certainly would be a nice improvement over the laptop audio output.


Reality is that computer headphone jacks that are in the same technical zip code as the headphone jack on a $30 Sansa Clip still seem to be pretty rare.  This is a $1.98 problem to solve, but not many people want to step up to it.

Quote
You could try some chinese brands like Little dot or Audio-gd, but it will be a little bit more expensive.


I don't think that any of that anti-science junk addresses the most important audible problem with most headphone jacks: source impedance. It seems to be fashionable to diss relevant products like the NX-1. I guess it just doesn't cost enough.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #18 –
I haven't seen anyone dissing the NX-1 here.
There are many products with low source impedance. There is a selection ranging from €20 to €2000+ products.
But desktop headphone amps are usually a bit more expensive due to the power supply, larger case, ...

Both O2 and Magni 2 are relatively cheap.

As for performance, the Magni 2 seems to produce more distortion, but audibility - as always - depends on your headphones and ears.

"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #19 –
Quote from: xnor on
I haven't seen anyone dissing the NX-1 here.


It is only implied - when some say try this instead, especially when the this is unvarnished golden ear BS such as the "Chinese Brands" that were mentioned.  Nothing wrong with the Chinese per se as they also make lots of good stuff like the NX-1.

Quote
There are many products with low source impedance. There is a selection ranging from €20 to €2000+ products.


All true. It is sad that we are still waiting for even ca. $100 audio interfaces from people who often know better (Asus) that claim to support headphones to fail reasonable goals for source impedance.


Quote
But desktop headphone amps are usually a bit more expensive due to the power supply, larger case, ...


USB power supplies are under $5 postpaid and they turn anything USB powered into the equivalent of those that plug into AC.  From what I can see the Schitt products we have been talking about depend on an outboard power unit.

Quote
Both O2 and Magni 2 are relatively cheap.


Or 4x the cost of fine alternatives.

Quote
As for performance, the Magni 2 seems to produce more distortion, but audibility - as always - depends on your headphones and ears.


Given the actual measured distortion levels, which are orders of magnitude less than audibility or the distortion in the best headphones, the above looks like a head-on collision with TOS 8.  To make it clear, neither of these Headphone amp products have enough nonlinear distortion for its audibility to be up to your headphones or ears. That seems to imply for one that there are headphones or ears whose resolving power would make a difference. In reality, not so much!

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #20 –
"you could try .." sounds more like an additional suggestion to me.

On the last point, are you assuming that the manufacturer's specs are correct and done with an appropriate load? There are other measurements on the net that show much higher THD compared to an O2, but they were made by a bozo so I won't even link to them.
"I hear it when I see it."

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #21 –
Personally, from reading his blog and reading about the rationale for the O2 (and ODAC), I would trust NwAvGuy and his design. I would also trust measurements he posted, showing that the O2 is indeed a Very Nice Headphone Amp.

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #22 –
Quote from: xnor on
"you could try .." sounds more like an additional suggestion to me.

On the last point, are you assuming that the manufacturer's specs are correct and done with an appropriate load? There are other measurements on the net that show much higher THD compared to an O2, but they were made by a bozo so I won't even link to them.


No, I remember Scamp's tests.  They were utterly boring - nothing wrong, lots of leading zeroes, and everything done right.

Interesting that nobody else seems to remember them. Blinded by all the hype surrounding the O2?  ;-)

o2+odac VS schiit modi2+magni2

Reply #24 –
Quote from: IgorC on
Here it is http://stuff.caudec.net/rmaa/Topping_NX1.htm
It has similar measurements comparinng to O2/ODAC.


While with load ( Denon D2000 25 ohms)
http://stuff.caudec.net/rmaa/O2_ODAC-D2000.htm 
http://stuff.caudec.net/rmaa/Topping_NX1-Denon_AH-D2000.htm

General performance:
ODAC - "Very Good"
NX1 - "Good"



I guess some people want to make a vieled claim that they can hear 0.025 % THD.  Not enough leading zeros?  Oops, thats just numbers. Where's the DBT?