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Topic: Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo (Read 28454 times) previous topic - next topic
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Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #75 –
Quote from: danvolker on
First, it appears virtually all sound engieers work exclusively with 24 bit sound, and it is unliklely any on HA could find one who does quality work, that could not hear the difference between 24 bit and 16 bit.

The main reason why they use 24 or 32 bit file sis to avoid cumulation of rounding errors. This is because what they do is multi-stage processing, not just storing and playback.

Quote from: danvolker on
Second, the sound engineers use wave format, not flac or wmal, or any other compressed format.

If you work with multiple files, like they do, it is more important to open them quickly than to have them small. In other words, it is more important to save the time of compression/decompression that to save disk space. This is why programs like Audition save additional information even along with wave files - just to speed up loading and siplaying. In the storage-and-playback context of a typical person the decompression time is a negligible factor.

Quote from: danvolker on
in other words, if a wave sounds different than a flac ( on a $100,000 stereo), but a wave form comparison shows that the two formats are identical,
This is plainly not possible, unless the listener is subject to prejudice or delusions. Otherwise, how two perfectly identical things can be perceived differently?
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #76 –
Dan, a WAV file is a sequence of 1s and 0s, like this:

Code: [Select]
A: 010110101011010100010101010101010101010110101010101011010101010110101101010101010101010...


A lossless Flac file is a compressed representation of this wave like:

Code: [Select]
0110111010110101010100101010100101110101010101...


If person A in possession of WAV file X makes a Flac file Y out of it and gives it to person B, person B does not need any other information than this Flac file to completely reconstruct the original WAV file X on his computer. B can go to A and ask him, hey I've got this WAV Y now, can you compare it to your WAV X, please? And A will find that every bit in X is identical to every bit in Y.

A Flac player does nothing else now than converting the Flac sequence in realtime back to a WAV sequence and pipe that to audio out.

You can't imagine how laughable all your statements are in the eyes of anybody who has at least understood that there is nothing else than sequences of bits in computersystems with nothing "in between" and identity between sequences means identity in its most naive form: 0=0 and 1=1

Computers would not work without this being true.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #77 –
Where's your ABX results, Dan?
Where's your ABX results, Dan?
Where's your ABX results, Dan?
Where's your ABX results, Dan?
Where's your ABX results, Dan?
Where's your ABX results, Dan?
Where's your ABX results, Dan?

Nobody actually cares about what you have to say or think about this community.
Nobody actually cares about what some audio engineer buddies of yours do when it comes to a completely different aspect of audio (ie recording, instead of archiving and playing).
All anyone cares about here is your ABX tests. Please, by all means provide procedurally correct ABX results from your multi-million dollar stereo system that back up any of your claims and we will all shut up, and crown you as an audio god. That's all you have to do. 

Quote from: shakey_snake on
We'll know after Dan has done a procedurally correct ABX test...

*waits for Jesus to come back*
Ht this rate, might beat you to the punch.


[edit] changed you to your, lol
elevatorladylevitateme

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #78 –
Let's stay calm. Just let him ask one of his admired recording engineers for a 24-bit WAV file. Then let him convert this to a flac file and erase his copy of the WAV. Then decode the Flac back to WAV and give it back to his admired engineer for comparison with the original.

He'll see then who was right and who was just the "everything is just believe systems"-belief-system-and-mine-is-right fool.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #79 –
Quote from: danvolker on
I spent some time last weekend speaking with a friend who has been doing mastering for muscians for over 20 years, primarily in jazz and piano--and only artists that are meticulous about the mastering process and sound quality. From this discussion, there are a few issues which "fly in the face" of HA "wisdoms". :-)
First, it appears virtually all sound engieers work exclusively with 24 bit sound
True.

Quote
...and it is unliklely any on HA could find one who does quality work, that could not hear the difference between 24 bit and 16 bit.
False.

Quote
Second, the sound engineers use wave format, not flac or wmal, or any other compressed format.
In all fairness to the "faithful of the flac belief systems", this may be more about the existing mastering equipment, and potential problems with any codec or file format other than wave, for the best sound gear , than it is about how these guys think about the sound of a lossless file, but the essential point here, is that the most critcal listeners--the "sound engineers", the guys who get paid for this, DO NOT USE LOSSLESS FILES FOR PLAYBACK.
I fear you may have a poor understanding of this point. Everyone on HA uses .wav files for the same stage in processing - i.e. the part where the audio must exist as individually accessible samples. No one would seriously suggest working with anything else when the task at hand is to change/process the audio.

Quote
Third, it appears to me that quite a few of the HA persuasion, are far more comfortable with waveform comparision tests, than with actual listening tests for music quality comparisons....
A wav file is a digital file on a computer. If you encode it to FLAC, and then decode it (which you must do in order to play it back) you get the same bits back. The onus isn't on anyone here to prove that the same bits sound the same - the onus is on anyone who claims that the same bits sound different to prove this is the case, and to find out why.

Quote
there is a geek-factor at work here, where the down-trodden can attempt to buoy themselves up over the bane of their existense, the more affluent audiophiles--or audiophools as these geeks like to describe them...
Ah, insults - coupled with the even more insulting assumption that no one at HA is affluent, no one at HA has a decent stereo, no one at HA really knows anything about audio etc.

This is just trolling.


Quote
Recording engineers won't really talk about an issue like this, as they see it too ridiculous to waste their time on.
Recording engineers rely on the equipment that "geeks" make and sell to them. If the equipment made identical bitstreams through identical DACs sound different, this wouldn't be something "too ridiculous to waste their time on" - it would be serious cause for alarm.

Quote
As I said, geeks love proving they are not inferior. And they have so much to prove :-)
Ah, insults again.

Quote
4th, and this is my preception of HA ....it would appear that more than half, maybe even more than 75% of HA posts are being made by people that listen to Ipods or mp3 players at least a few times per week....I find this renders their  comments about music quality to be ridiculous, since it is impossible for an Ipod playing mp3 files to play music  accurately--if these guys don't get bothered by the inaccurate music on the mp3 players, then they are not critical listeners--or at least not the kind of critical listener I would listen to for advice on music quality.
It's interesting that you discount the opinions of probably 90%+ of the potential buying public. Not a great plan for commercial success. Ironic too that, in mine and many other people's experience, actual musicians often have the worst audio equipment. They know what a real violin sounds like because they play one, but they get all the musical information they need for enjoyment from the poorest stereo.

Quote
There are a few main players on HA that should be respected, as I have read some good advice from them--but there are far too many others who appear to just be downtrodden geeks, with a hatred for anything better than they have.
No, a dislike for the unscientific approach of self proclaimed audiophiles whose concentration on imagined and insignificant "improvements" has all but killed the industry, stopped real improvements becoming anything but niche experiments, and largely ignored or poured scorn the biggest increase in consumer access to music in a century.

Cheers,
David.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #80 –
Quote from: danvolker on
If you are a proffessional, then you should know most sound engineers believe they can hear the difference between 24 bit and 16 bit music...this issue goes beyond the studio, because if they can hear it at the studio, then it can be heard on a very high quality stereo.

Well, I'm an audio engineer (tooting my own meaningless horn), and I can't hear the difference between 16-bit and 24-bit. The reason I use 24-bit during recording and processing is not because I can hear the difference, but because by working with the highest bit depth possible, I can minimize noise and distortion introduced during processing. The reason other engineers prefer to work with 24-bit audio is for precisely the same reason. The reason digital processors and plug-ins operate in a 24-, 32-, 48- or even 64-bit precision space is for precisely the same reason.

Quote from: danvolker on
I don't think the geek squad here knows enough to design tests that will really prove much of anything, beyond what listening tests can show

We don't have to "design tests". All we have to do is run a program capable of running ABX trials between two samples. There are literally half a dozen applications out there that allow us to do precisely this. It's actually just that simple.

Most of us here fully understand the science of bit depth and we fully understand the technical advantages. Odds are that a good majority of us are more familiar with the technical merits than most audio engineers (whom you universally seem to hold in such high esteem, which shows a blatant naivety). What we also understand -- and quite well, I might add -- is that the chance that 24-bit can be discerned from 16-bit with real program material is minimal to non-existent regardless of the "caliber" of playback equipment, which you erroneously seem to believe is the sole determinator of one's worth.

Quote from: danvolker on
If they come as a wave file when I buy one, it will stay a wave file. If I get one which is a flac or wmal, I will still be quite happy, but would be happier with the original wave :-)

This is only because you've fallen victim to a ridiculous manner of thinking in which placebo is allowed, and even encouraged, to dominate your own perception. Such thinking is not only absurd but is indeed pure lunacy. If you have clear knowledge that two things are identical yet continue to cling to a fantasy that one of those identical things is different, that's lunacy. If such thinking seems perfectly acceptable to you, I suggest seeking out a qualified mental health professional. And, no, I'm not joking.

What's fantastically amusing about all this is that you haven't even demonstrated to us, nor to yourself, an ability to discern an MP3 or AAC of any quality from lossless! Knowing this, however, you still cling to the nonsensical notion that WAV is in any way audibly different to FLAC? How could any rational person ever hope to wrap their heads around such a stubborn and errant way of thinking?

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #81 –
Quote from: shakey_snake on
Where's you ABX results, Dan?

Exactly!

He promised a week ago he'd provide some, instead he's come back to reinforce his clueless beliefs by hijacking another thread with off-topic discussion.  What does the 16 vs. 24 argument have to do with FLAC vs. WAVE?

EDIT: That was a rhetorical question.  The off-topic posts have since been moved to this discussion.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #82 –
Wow that post by danvolker deserves demerit points for in-your-face trolling. It is easy to identify a troll post, because it is so unreal and outrageously untrue that it's going to take forever to categorically refute it, and he himself knows that to be true. A word of advice for those who are going to try correct him, remember not to get sidetracked by his taunts.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #83 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: shakey_snake on
Where's you ABX results, Dan?

Exactly!

He promised a week ago he'd provide some, instead he's come back to reinforce his clueless beliefs by hijacking another thread with off-topic discussion. 
If I had to speculate, I'd guess is that he did some ABX testing during the last week or so and didn't like the result. Probably couldn't swallow his pride and decided to turn his tail and run from the dogs.

We really are brutal around here to the claims of audio hobbyists, but really rightfully so.

Last summer, my Dad's doctor told him that he needed to exercise.  So he bought new bicycles for him and my Mom. Now my Dad, in more than one way, thinks (or at least acts like) he is some sort of expert about riding bikes. He has a custom fit  helmet, and these gloves that he wears, he has this electronic gizmo that monitors how fast he iss riding and guesses how many Calories he's burning. Next summer he told me he's joining a "biking club". And he feels like he's an expert.

Sometimes, people do the same thing with audio. They drop a lot of money on stereo equipment and think it makes them an expert. They feel like the $$$ that they are spending directly correlates to their own ability to hear. Then they get in social circles with other people who blow a wad on equipment and they learn a lingo and they suddenly feel like their consumerism makes them special.

Dan is obviously one of these guys. No amount of reason and scientific inquiry will ever be able to compete in this guy's mind with the special feeling he gets from his $400 foam X's he bought to elevate his interconnects off the ground.

Such uncritical hobbyism paints a rather depressing picture of the hollowness of western society.
elevatorladylevitateme

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #84 –

Quote
It's interesting that you discount the opinions of probably 90%+ of the potential buying public. Not a great plan for commercial success.


The vast majority of the American public has chosen to buy cars equivalent to the ford focus, the chevy impala, and a bunch of other mass market automobiles....the quality of cars that are made for the largest number of consumers is low., like the cost of these cars, relative to the cost of cars made for consumers looking for high quality cars.

The "masses" will eat more meals at Burger King than the wealthy will eat at 5 star restaurants, but this has nothing to do with quality or good decisions.

Music is similar. Unfortunately, music has de-evolved since the 70's, both in creativity and in consumer interest in quality sound. Today we have more listeners with mp3 players, than there were home stereos playing music back in the 70's, but the vinyl recordings of the 70's had far more quality potential for playback than the mp3's --which are used for the majority of downloads today.

So as mp3's have become the "FAST FOOD" of music, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to assist this new world in it's RIGHT to be "supersized". 


Regards,
Dan

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #85 –
How many times does danvolker have to break TOS#2, TOS#5 and TOS#8 before being banned? He seems to be getting a much easier ride than many do when they first arrive and spout horse shit through total ignorance. Logic seems to have no place in his 'special' world. 

Cheers, Slipstreem. 

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #86 –
Yes, Dan we realize not eating fast food makes you feel "special".

Unfortunately, the claims of quality, which are verifiable, that come from that specialness are ludicrous.

ABX results or GTFH.



[edit]changed form to from
elevatorladylevitateme

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #87 –
I don't think that he's a troll. He has got this Don Quixotesk, wimpy stubbornness that only people have, who substitute their ego with some special belief set, which guarantees them endless battle: commonly agreed facts. In his case his ego's insignia are his "superior" audio equipment, where especially the parts, that only his trusted salesman and he believe in (but probably not the "so called experts"), are indeed the most important elements of the whole story. It's a common common guy strategy to separate oneself from other common guys by owning different objects and putting some religion onto them. In his cases the masses of iPod listeners are his stage. I wonder what his problem is. Maybe he's compensating a complete lack of muse or taste and this is his substitution.

To outsiders the effects are almost identical to trolling but I believe for him its genuine fight.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #88 –
It's easy enough to test, Dan.

Take your favorite highly-prized pristine 24-bit recording of vinyl and make an mp3 out of it using Lame 3.98 -V0 or -b320.  See if you can differentiate them in a blind test.  After reading your posts, it sounds like it should be easy for you.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #89 –
Quote from: rpp3po on
To outsiders the effects are almost identical to trolling but I believe for him its genuine fight.

I'm not as certain. When he first came here, he seemed genuinely interested in learning, and I think we (myself included) were more than happy oblige. It seemed as if he accepted it and appeared genuinely interested in learning more until his "switch flipped" and began his crusade to not only troll but to directly insult us. He seems fairly angry that HA doesn't permit the expression of invalid and unsubstantiated thinking and is attempting to "bite back".

I think any additional effort spent attempting to educate would be effort wasted (and won't benefit this thread directly), but I also think that Dan's various claims and comments, and our replies, should probably be split into a new thread if anyone is still interested in trying.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #90 –
They can probably be tacked on to the other one I had to split for the same reason, you know, the one that Dan abandoned?

UPDATE: It is done!

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #91 –
I don't know why dan is refusing to provide any evidence to back up his claims besides "I can hear it."  big deal, anyone can say that.

but this is the real stumper... if someone doesn't think flac decodes to the same bits as wav does before playback (yes even linear pcm wav has a trivial decoding step), that's easy to prove and shove in everyone's face... we're waiting.

if someone does agree it's identical, but they can still somehow hear the difference between two identical things, then why don't they think they can hear the difference between wav and wav?  why don't they distrust zip files to arbitrarily change data in ways they can detect?  etc etc

(threads like this make me want to get into the "high-end" equipment business.  just look at the margins you can get and your customers just have to be convinced, they will even refuse to objectively test your marketing claims!)

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #92 –
Quote from: greynol on
They can probably be tacked on to the other one I had to split for the same reason, you know, the one that Dan abandoned?

UPDATE: It is done!


Link plz.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #93 –
To clear up any remaining confusion, this is the discussion that Dan abandoned a week ago.
The topics from which this discussion came to be can be found in the topic sub-title: 66100 and 65947.

The second installment (from Topic ID #65947) begins here:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=617588

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #94 –
Quote from: danvolker on
5th and final, HA as a group, should be offering a wealth of knowledge in regards to sound cards, downloaded music, and how to plan for the big changes that are coming in music distribution over the next 10 years....but instead, the geek force within it,  is running rampant, seemingly with a group mission to champion the mediocrity of mp3 music and the search for cheapest "playback equipment", as opposed to a search for "the best" equipment for playback.

I hate to disillusion you, Dan, but I have been reading HA since its beginning, and r3mix before that, and I can tell you that from the start HA has been mainly focused on audio compression, mainly lossy but also lossless. Naturally other audio-related topics come up and are discussed, but that doesn't mean that audio compression isn't still the main topic of interest here.

If you came here expecting something different then you are sure to be disappointed.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #95 –
I think I didn't miss the spot sensing some crusade against hostile, fact based belief systems. He already told us in another thread that he is active poster in the scuba community:

Search Google for dan volker, 2nd hit... 

So maybe we could end this kindergarten thread (my posts included  ). It doesn't take us anywhere technically insightful.

Music that sounds good on a really good home stereo

Reply #96 –
You guys really have great patience. Actually this thread seems to look enjoyable now.