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Topic: What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware? (Read 15917 times) previous topic - next topic
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What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #25
You mean that you actually tested something like Sennheiser 555 or 595 on a PC with and without an external amp and you hear no difference? Or just theoretically?
Remember that I don't even have a headphone jack, only the line-out that is designed to work with powered PC speakers.
The X-Fi definitely has amplified output, not just line-out. If it hadn't, your headphones would play very quiet (due to high ouptut impedance on the unamplified line-out).
For the external amp - I have tried listening to some pieces through CD player (Denon DCD-755AR) with integrated headphone amp if this counts.  I couldn't spot any difference from a bare soundcard (Xonar DX). (Using Sennheiser HD 215)

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #26
@uart: Well, if that's the case, I'll check it out

@others: So it seems that headphone amps are a pretty controversial topic  For example, the article on Wikipedia clearly states that they can improve both volume and sound quality. I'm not saying that Wikipedia is right, but the statement is there, unchallenged. Anyway, I'm not going to buy an amp unless I can test it and there is a clear difference that justifies the price

@Slipstreem: I'm a total noob, but I still don't quite get that impedance stuff. You say that the impedance of the output should be significantly lower than the impedance of the 'phones. If that's the case, low-impedance 'phones should be harder to drive than high impedance ones. It's harder to have a significantly lower impedance of the output if the impedance of the 'phones is already low, isn't it?

@CSMR: Volume control is a new factor here  Can you explain why digital volume control is very bad?

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #27
@uart: Well, if that's the case, I'll check it out

@others: So it seems that headphone amps are a pretty controversial topic  For example, the article on Wikipedia clearly states that they can improve both volume and sound quality. I'm not saying that Wikipedia is right, but the statement is there, unchallenged. Anyway, I'm not going to buy an amp unless I can test it and there is a clear difference that justifies the price

@Slipstreem: I'm a total noob, but I still don't quite get that impedance stuff. You say that the impedance of the output should be significantly lower than the impedance of the 'phones. If that's the case, low-impedance 'phones should be harder to drive than high impedance ones. It's harder to have a significantly lower impedance of the output if the impedance of the 'phones is already low, isn't it?

@CSMR: Volume control is a new factor here  Can you explain why digital volume control is very bad?



Digital volume control is not necessarily bad. If your digital mixer is working at 16 bits resolution and you're operating at a low mixer level then it will increase the relative amount of quantization noise. Shouldn't be a problem at 24 bit though.

Personally I prefer to use headphones with in-line volume control and just run my mixer output volume settings at maximum (and obviously adjust the volume down to the desired level with the inline control). If you already have phones without inline volume control then you can by it as a separate (plug in series) unit.

I find this gives the best SNR in most circumstances. It also has the added bonus of generally increasing the impedance seen by the soundcard output. My phones for example are about 32 ohms when the inline volume is at max (which I never need to use in normal listening) but more like about 400 to 500 ohms when adjusted to my typical listening levels.

Of course an amplifier can improve the sound if your soundcard output doesn’t have enough grunt to drive your phones properly. The most common anomalies that you’re likely to get if you’re trying to drive a load with impedance too low for the design of the amplifier (which is effectively what would be happening if you were driving phones with an output not properly designed to drive them) are :

1. Lack of  available volume (easily discerned by user)
2. Higher nonlinearities and distortion
3. Possible compromise of low frequency response.

If you have one or more of these problems due to your soundcard’s output trying to drive too lower impedance then yes an amplifier will help, otherwise not. The power required to drive headphones however is not that high and there is no good reason why a decent soundcard should have such poor headphone driving capabilities that a separate headphone amp is needed.

I’m only using onboard audio which is usually consider the poorest option and it’s driving my headphones just fine (at least I’m getting plenty of volume and no noticeable noise problems).

Tell you what, when I get the time I’ll test my frequency response both with and without the phones connected, which should give me a pretty good indication. If possible I’ll even do a full loopback test and see if any nonlinearities get significantly worse with the headphones connected. (Actually with the latter I actually expect it will get a little worse, distortion is typically a function of load impedance, but I don’t expect it will be significant enough to concern me). I Guess I’ll have to do the test and see.

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #28
Ok, here are the results from RMAA for my onboard sound out, with and without headphones connected.

I ran three loopback tests. The first was with the headphones connected and the in-line volume set at my normal listening level. The second was with the phones connected and the in-line volume set somewhat higher than I normally listen at. The final test is with only the loopback connected.





The graphs below are associated with the measure of (in order),


1. THD (total harmonic distortion)
2. Frequency Response
3. Dynamic Range.
4. IMD (intermodulation distortion)
5. Noise Floor
6. Stereo cross-talk.










BTW. I've had to spead this over two posts as apparently the forum software wouldn't allow me to post 7 images in the one post. See next post for more details.

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #29
Here are the rest of the images.










Graphs 1 and 2 (frequecy response and THD) are by far the most telling. Clearly the lower frequency roll off is dominated by the ouput impedance. As execpted the performance of onboard audio is not exaclty great here, though it is acceptable at the impedance corresponding to my normal volume settings. It would very likely be unacceptable however if I was using low impedance phones without the in-line volume control.

The THD graph also shows up something I mentioned in an earlier post. When you're working the sound card's coupling capacitors hard, as is the case when you're driving a large low frequency signal into a low impedance load, then you can get a significant increase in distortion. A better quality sound card would probably fair better here, though once again the results are acceptable to me at my normal listening settings.

There is nothing significant worth mentioning about the noise floor and dynamic range result with/without the phone loading. With the cross-talk results it's clear that either the phones or inline volume control are providing an addition path for cross-talk but this is largely irrelevant (or not of any concern to me at least).

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #30
I'm sure this question has been asked many times before, but I can't find any answer.

I'm not really an audiophile, but I do care about sound quality to some extent. My problem is that I don't want (and probably don't need) high-end equipment that costs thousands of dollars, but I'm not satisfied with the most basic stuff either - and I don't really know where the "middle ground" is for me. I'm listening to music only on headphones connected to my PC (the files are either FLACs or 320 kpbs MP3s) and I don't want to change that. Right now I'm using Philips SBC HP890 headphones connected directly to a Creative X-Fi Xtreme Audio sound card (actually, it's a rebranded Audigy SE). I don't listen to jazz or classical music, only "popular" stuff (mostly indie rock). I feel satisfied with my current setup, but I've never heard anything better, so I can't compare. My question is - is that setup sufficient for someone like me? Will buying slightly more expensive stuff make a difference that even an untrained ear can hear? For example, I think that audiophiles are using a headphone amp between the PC and the headphones - will that make a big difference?

Thanks in advance for all your suggestions


My Setup:
Asus Xonar sound card + Marantz stereo amp PM7001 (denon, marantz or any big HIFI brand between $300 to $800 is reasonable) and some nice speakers for $600 to 800. depends really I have B&W bookshelf speakers which are fantastic.

I use this setup for my computer (hifi) and gaming and movies. sounds amazing! souround is nice but for me to many cables

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #31
Contents of post moved to previous reply. Mods please remove

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #32
Shouldn't be a problem at 24 bit though.

Yes, assuming an ideal 24 bit sound card. Take 24bit integrated sound and bump up the noise floor by 30db or whatever volume reduction you need and it can be a problem.
Good graphs btw, they address the amplification issue pretty well.

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #33
Assuming your sound card at least has inaudible noise and a flat response on it's line out when driving high impedance loads(which is what loop back simulates), then simply using for example, a Behringer Xenxy 808 mini-mixer, as the headphone amp on the line out, will solve the under-load problems as listed here. The 808 has a +/- 18 V supply, and a powerful headphone output stage. It can drive any dynamic headphone with ease, whether it is a Grado SR60 or an AKG K1000. Due to the inexpensive price, it is a high value solution. In addition, you get all kinds of added functionality such as good quality stereo balanced and phantom powered mic pres(if you ever want to play around with decent mics/recording) and various line inputs.

-Chris

 

What's a "reasonable" PC audio hardware?

Reply #34
Again thanks for all your help  As I've said, I'm going to select my new headphones first, and then check whether I need to buy something more. However, your answers lead me to even more questions since I'm really a noob when it comes to audio, digital or otherwise, but I'll just start a new topic for that