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Topic: Timbre matching speakers (Read 7227 times) previous topic - next topic
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Timbre matching speakers

Hi all,

I need some advice. What determines tonal matching in a HT system? Like a front speaker and a center speaker?

I'm looking at buying the 684 floor standing speakers and they have two center speakers, the HTM61 and the HTM62. A local dealer told me that the smaller center would be a better tonal match because it would match the size of the drivers in the 684 floor stander.

Is this correct? Is timbre matching determined by sizing the drivers in the center and floor stander, or is there a more scientific explanation than that?

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #1 –
The big factors affecting the timbre of an audio system are speaker placement/alignment and frequency response. Those things aren't directly related to the diameter or the driver. Larger drivers are more easily designed to produce deep bass, but you can't usefully predict anything about the sound using only the diameter of the driver.

However, that leads me to something else.  If the drivers are the same size and the same manufacturer, it is possible that the drivers in the speakers are in fact identical. Identical drivers for all of the full-range channels is definitely something you want. If you mix and match drivers, you could run into a situation where the timbre of a sound changes depending on the channel it's on. It's not clear to me if the drivers in question are identical drivers,  or two different drivers that happen to be the same size.

The center speaker might be the most inconsequential, since IIRC it is mostly used for speech in movies, and doesn't tend to move around in the sound field. But, unless you have a specific reason not to, I'd go for the same drivers in all of them  (but the sub, of course).

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #2 –
Quote from: slks on
The big factors affecting the timbre of an audio system are speaker placement/alignment and frequency response. Those things aren't directly related to the diameter or the driver. Larger drivers are more easily designed to produce deep bass, but you can't usefully predict anything about the sound using only the diameter of the driver.

However, that leads me to something else.  If the drivers are the same size and the same manufacturer, it is possible that the drivers in the speakers are in fact identical. Identical drivers for all of the full-range channels is definitely something you want. If you mix and match drivers, you could run into a situation where the timbre of a sound changes depending on the channel it's on. It's not clear to me if the drivers in question are identical drivers,  or two different drivers that happen to be the same size.

The center speaker might be the most inconsequential, since IIRC it is mostly used for speech in movies, and doesn't tend to move around in the sound field. But, unless you have a specific reason not to, I'd go for the same drivers in all of them  (but the sub, of course).


The salesman said that the larger center has a FST driver and the bigger floor standing speakers, the 683s, also have FST drivers, so it would therefore be a better match tonally. My 684 floor standing speakers do not include the FST driver, so his logic is that the the FST driver in the HTM61 won't gel with my non-FST driver 684 speakers.

I'm not sure if the driver makes a difference as far as tonally matching the sound is concerned. But I know he also brought up driver size as a potential issue, which I gather now is not really true.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #3 –
The salesman is correct, that they should sound alike.  Ideally, you'd have 5 (or 7) identical speakers.    But, for space & aesthetic reasons the center speaker often has a different shape and the rear speakers are often smaller.

Maybe you can bring one of your existing speakers to the showroom, or maybe you can take both center speakers home, and do a side-by side comparison of the sound.





BTW - My speakers are mis-matched.  My left & right front "giant speaker stack" is home built (with a pair of 15-inch subwoofers that I also built).    My center speaker is a pair of cheap speakers that I had laying around.  My rear speakers are also rather large (15-inch woofers) that someone gave me.    My plan is to build a new center speaker, but I can't make it match my left & right speaker because they were built many years ago and the components are no longer available.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #4 –
The best way to achieve good timbre matching across the front is to use three identical speakers. It's what I do and indeed was a requirement of the original THX certification. Only after great pressure from marketers did they relax that, but the actual importance for sound quality itself never went away.

Since you have,  and should use, Audyssey XT individual ch. EQ, the need for an identical center is lessened in your particular  instance, but if the best possible front soundstage imaging and localization is your goal, there is no substitute.

I've personally heard incompetent hi-end salesmen poo-poo Audyssey as being best turned off, because it contradicts their other sales goals and general audio mythology agenda, but I hope you haven't fallen for such nonsense.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #5 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
The salesman is correct, that they should sound alike.  Ideally, you'd have 5 (or 7) identical speakers.    But, for space & aesthetic reasons the center speaker often has a different shape and the rear speakers are often smaller.

Maybe you can bring one of your existing speakers to the showroom, or maybe you can take both center speakers home, and do a side-by side comparison of the sound.


But does that mean that because my speakers don't include the FST driver that they won't sound alike? I thought B&W 600 series center speakers were designed to be a tonal match for all of the 600 series speakers.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #6 –
From a cursory look at the B&W product brochure, it appears as if the dealer is correct; the 684 tower speakers do not use the 'surround-less' "FST" midrange design. Your best bet for center channel speaker voice matching is usually to acquire the unit that has very nearly the closest midrange/tweeter driver types.

In this case, since the HMT62 appears to use exactly the same midrange and tweeter drivers as the HMT684, while the HMT61 uses the same mid & tweets as the pricey HMT683, the HMT62 is surely the one to get. Assuming you buy the 684s.

Be aware that this situation involves the virtually unprecedented phenomena of a speaker salesman recommending the less expensive speaker, so you can rest well assured that you are getting excellent advice and that the salesman will soon be out of a job or bankrupted. Maybe give him a tip on the way out the door.

Buy now before you're up-sold to a package of seven Nautliuses and have to take out a third mortgage!

Also, while I'm sure B&W will tell you that every speaker they've ever made is matched and physically perfect down to the sub-micron scale, keep in mind that there are three main types of lies -  lies, damn (or filthy) lies, and marketing (interchangeable with propaganda).

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #7 –
Good advice above. Each speaker manufacturer has their idea of what constitutes the 'right' sound, so sticking with the same brand for the whole surround set-up is likely to give you a better result than just going by driver size. Going with speakers from the same range of the same brand - even better.

I've given up on surround myself. I had some decent results with multichannel where I last lived, but it's more tricky where I am now. Doing it in my current (smaller and more irregular-shaped) living room layout was just too much hassle so I put my money into an integrated 2-channel amp and two good speakers instead of spreading that same money over 5 or 7 cheaper units.

When it stops being fun, you have to know when to stop the fiddling and the complexity and just aim for a simpler kind of pleasure.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #8 –
Quote from: mzil on
Since you have,  and should use, Audyssey XT individual ch. EQ, the need for an identical center is lessened in your particular  instance, but if the best possible front soundstage imaging and localization is your goal, there is no substitute.

I've personally heard incompetent hi-end salesmen poo-poo Audyssey as being best turned off, because it contradicts their other sales goals and general audio mythology agenda, but I hope you haven't fallen for such nonsense.

Is there evidence that such a product actually improves the sound? Floyd Toole in his book pretty much shows that the brain is very good in handling reflections (even adapts to the room) and that audio processing is mostly useful for problematic bass frequencies.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #9 –
Quote from: drfisheye on
Quote from: mzil on
Since you have,  and should use, Audyssey XT individual ch. EQ, the need for an identical center is lessened in your particular  instance, but if the best possible front soundstage imaging and localization is your goal, there is no substitute.

I've personally heard incompetent hi-end salesmen poo-poo Audyssey as being best turned off, because it contradicts their other sales goals and general audio mythology agenda, but I hope you haven't fallen for such nonsense.

Is there evidence that such a product actually improves the sound? Floyd Toole in his book pretty much shows that the brain is very good in handling reflections (even adapts to the room) and that audio processing is mostly useful for problematic bass frequencies.


Audyssey XT, developed by the inventor of THX, Tomlinson Holman, uses a microphone placed at the main seated position, which does three things:

- it introduces a digital delay so the arrival time of the 5.1 (or more) speakers' direct sound is time aligned (in phase).
- it precisely level matches the speakers
- it introduces a sophisticated EQ, especially to the bass/sub, to compensate for one's room acoustics and speaker/sub placement, individually per speaker, either for just that one seated position or for an averaging of up to 8 different seated positions so it addresses the entire family of listeners sitting about the room.

There are some systems which are said to address room reflections, but this isn't one of them (except to say that the perceived frequency response at a given location in the room is from both the direct and the reflected sounds combined together). It also provides some manual override controls, including an interesting one which doesn't EQ the main front speakers at all, but instead EQs all the other ones in the system to mimic the front main speakers' response, instead of adjusting all to a target response.

Additionally, since Audyssey knows your seated positions' actual SPL for a given volume knob setting (because it measured it) it also can more intelligently apply the proper equal loudness contours [and dynamic range compression] specifically tailored to one's particular setup/room position, if one chooses.

The only third party evaluation of it effectiveness and/or preference by listeners in a double blind study [that I know of] is here:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=15154

[Don't take my inclusion of that link as my tacit endorsement of the test methodology used, however, I'm just saying it's the only published study I know of on the matter.]

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #10 –
Quote
But does that mean that because my speakers don't include the FST driver that they won't sound alike? I thought B&W 600 series center speakers were designed to be a tonal match for all of the 600 series speakers.
I have no idea what FST does to the sound or how significant it is.    That's why I suggested you listen side-by-side.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #11 –
Quote
Is there evidence that such a product actually improves the sound? Floyd Toole in his book pretty much shows that the brain is very good in handling reflections (even adapts to the room) and that audio processing is mostly useful for problematic bass frequencies.
I don't want to drift too far off topic, but processing can only do so much with bass reflections.      At standing wave nodes where sound waves are canceled there's not much you can do because it essentially takes an infinite amount of power an really big woofers to overcome the cancelation.    At an antinode where waves build-up you can remove the bump with EQ. 

That's why people install bass traps.  If you can reduce the bass reflections, you can reduce the cancelation of certain frequencies while reducing the e build-up at other frequencies for smoother overall bass.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #12 –
My friend has paradigm studio 20s bookshelves and a flipping huge center speaker the cc690 :

http://audiovisualinfo.com/wp-content/uplo...-studio-202.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q...5WYEHMhCmw-1wKQ

And he tells me his center is perfectly timbre matched and he finds the dialog intellgibility to be fantastic in his room. When asked why he bought the huge center, he told me that the model down, the smaller 590 center had nasal dialog issues, a midrange congestion.

No such issues with the cc690. He just wanted the best center speaker, and short of an identical studio 20 for timbre matching, he found the c690 center to give the best results. Do you think in his case that the results could be great given the difference in size between the bookshelves and center?

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #13 –
Something else I was wondering about, if the center speaker is placed in a different postiion to the left and right speakers then the frequency response will be different in that spot. But the content played in the center speaker will also be a little different to what is played in the left and right. Am I correct?

If so on both counts then why do people recommend identical speakers for all three speakers? I understand that identical speakers should give the best timbral consistency, but I just think the way movies are mixed and with the content being a little dissimilar in all channels, that the need for identical speakers is not as important as some make it out to be

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #14 –
Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
Is there evidence that such a product actually improves the sound? Floyd Toole in his book pretty much shows that the brain is very good in handling reflections (even adapts to the room) and that audio processing is mostly useful for problematic bass frequencies.
I don't want to drift too far off topic, but processing can only do so much with bass reflections.      At standing wave nodes where sound waves are canceled there's not much you can do because it essentially takes an infinite amount of power an really big woofers to overcome the cancelation.    At an antinode where waves build-up you can remove the bump with EQ. 

That's why people install bass traps.  If you can reduce the bass reflections, you can reduce the cancelation of certain frequencies while reducing the e build-up at other frequencies for smoother overall bass.

By strategically placing 4 subs and time align them you can eliminate some big problems. This is of course not a cheap solution, since you need 2 or better 4 subs, and complex measuring and processing.

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #15 –
Quote from: mzil on
- it introduces a digital delay so the arrival time of the 5.1 (or more) speakers' direct sound is time aligned (in phase).

I'm no expert, but time aligning 5 speakers can't be done without moving the speakers? As soon as you have 2 aligned with a delay, other ones will be un-aligned. And moving your head a few inches will also screw up the alignment relative to your head.

As for the tonal matching; if the speakers are neutral they are matched. If they are not, then you can't really do anything. A speaker is much more than a driver, thus driver matching in itself won't help. Look at the complex frequency response graphs of speakers, full of little and not-so-little peaks and dips; no way that different speakers would have the same frequency response. (Since 'timbre' would be the sound resulting of the complex frequency response.)

Timbre matching speakers

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Yahzi on
Something else I was wondering about, if the center speaker is placed in a different postiion to the left and right speakers then the frequency response will be different in that spot. But the content played in the center speaker will also be a little different to what is played in the left and right. Am I correct?

If so on both counts then why do people recommend identical speakers for all three speakers? I understand that identical speakers should give the best timbral consistency, but I just think the way movies are mixed and with the content being a little dissimilar in all channels, that the need for identical speakers is not as important as some make it out to be


With movies you're probably right.  With music it's a bit different...

I have different speakers at all 4 channels  (mains, center, rear fill, height fill) and with a EQ/room treatment and using generally decent (flat-ish) speakers, I have no audible timbre issues.  I'm sure others could say the same.  It may not be trivial for some setups but making good choices is probably good enough