Hey, I am hoping that someone has tried both and has an honest opinion. I have christmas money and wish to buy an MP3 player, I was wandering which is better, the Sansa Fuze or the Ipod Touch. I only really care about sound quality and any opinions however slight about audio quality would really help. I really don't want any price value opinions though as I want an honest opinion about only sound quality. Thank you! The stock headphones don't matter, I have sennheiser cx 300 ii's and hd 485's. I will put lossless or high bit rate audio on it. Thank you, all help much appreiciated,
Sam.
Hey, I am hoping that someone has tried both and has an honest opinion. I have christmas money and wish to buy an MP3 player, I was wandering which is better, the Sansa Fuze or the Ipod Touch. I only really care about sound quality and any opinions however slight about audio quality would really help.
Both are generally transparent when driving all but very exotic headphones.
What about through a decent hi fi system? I have an £800 hifi system that I might use it on sometimes, my headphones are £80 sennheisers, would I notice a difference with these do you think? Thanks a lot for your help
Anyone else have any opinions, much appreciated
Hi and welcome to Hydrogenaudio.
In case you haven't taken the opportunity, it is expected that all members read, understand and explicitly follow our Terms of Service (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3974). I mention this because the question you are asking falls directly under the purview of rule #8.
Unless someone can demonstrate an audible difference through means acceptable by this forum, it is to be assumed that they sound identical.
It is sometimes suggested that if differences are expressed only as opinions, often qualified by things like YMMV, then they are somehow acceptable and immune to TOS #8. This is absolutely not the case.
Hi and welcome to Hydrogenaudio.
In case you haven't taken the opportunity, it is expected that all members read, understand and explicitly follow our Terms of Service (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3974). I mention this because the question you are asking falls directly under the purview of rule #8.
Unless someone can demonstrate an audible difference through means acceptable by this forum, it is to be assumed that they sound identical.
It is sometimes suggested that if differences are expressed only as opinions, often qualified by things like YMMV, then they are somehow acceptable and immune to TOS #8. This is absolutely not the case.
Sorry, It doesn't have to be merely based around opinion. Hardware differences in the sound card that produce more clear higher frequencies due to its architectural structure are equally what I wanted. I just felt that everything is based around opinion in the end.
Yours Sincerely,
Sam.
I would hope they aren't based around opinion.
Please allow me to rephrase. One cannot express differences as opinions in order to get around TOS #8. This is just a somewhat common excuse that is given. To put it more concretely, there really isn't anything that allows one to skirt TOS #8.
If you wish to claim audible differences then you must provide objective evidence.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. One cannot express differences as opinions in order to get around TOS #8. To put it more succinctly, there really isn't anything that allows one to skirt TOS #8.
If you wish to claim audible differences then you must provide objective evidence.
Ok, sorry, I interpreted the rule to mean that all those who put forward a statement about sound quality must back it up with evidence. However, I did not state either way, and thus, expected that it was the rule that applied to those who replied with an opinion. Because I personally didn't state a view, then I felt I did not need evidence, as I didn't make a statement about it. What should I do now then?
You did nothing to break the rule, rather it was directed at those who might consider replying.
It was also mentioned so that you may understand that people aren't allowed to present information that isn't also supported through objective means.
My bad for using the word "you" in my last response.
Ah, ok, I am so sorry, I guess there is little chance of reply then if it has to be supported by objective means. The demographic has to be rather small then narrow it down to this forum... Haha, sorry to waste your time.
Sam.
People often provide frequency plots and other graphical data for hardware to help indicate if someone might hear differences, which is OK so long as this isn't provided as evidence that people do hear differences. TOS #8 explicitly states that graphs are inadmissible, but this was more directed towards lossy codec development than hardware.
What about through a decent hi fi system? I have an £800 hifi system that I might use it on sometimes, my headphones are £80 sennheisers, would I notice a difference with these do you think? Thanks a lot for your help
I can't really tell you what you'll perceive, but given that both of these devices have pretty close to 16 bit limited SNR and a uniform frequency response, I consider it unlikely. That said, you can read a very detailed comparison of the theoretical differences between a Clip+ and Touch here:
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/sansa-clip-measured.html (http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/sansa-clip-measured.html)
The Clip+ and Fuze (v2) use identical internal hardware aside from the screen. I consider the screen unlikely to change the audio, but something to keep in mind.
That's amazing, thank you. What you presented there was a fascinating read that has made my decision. I am going for the fuze, it has better statistics in that document and seems to be a great player. Thank you so much!
What you presented there was a fascinating read that has made my decision. I am going for the fuze, it has better statistics in that document and seems to be a great player.
I think the most reasonable conclusion from that link would be that both players are so good there is little difference between them.
I don't know, I feel that making a conclusion from there that the clip+ is better in terms of audio quality in the sense of interpretation/ perception is rather valid due to the nature of the points that the clip wins on and vice versa with the touch. (Based on his conclusion/ summary and then interpreted the results from that)
The Clip+ and Fuze (v2) use identical internal hardware aside from the screen. I consider the screen unlikely to change the audio, but something to keep in mind.
Just in passing, I seem to remember that in the early days of the iPod Touch people did hear noise that was attributable to the screen--so it's certainly unlikely that a different screen would have an effect, but not impossible.
I have an iPod Touch 4, and no noise whatsoever. It's a great player, and in fact I would consider these two players totally different categories. For one, the Touch is more expensive, and is a mini computer in on itself. Which means more updates and different ways to play music. For instance, for the car I use FlickTunes, which is a front-end for the music app which lets you control it with gestures. Also, Airplay and 3rd party iPod USB/dock support might be an advantage. Like I said in another thread, I was also surprised pleasantly with the iOS update which fixed the Sound Check availability on the USB Direct output. OTOH, the inbuilt music app sucks horribly (for ex. no good landscape mode or hardware buttons).
Maybe compare it to one of the Samsung Galaxy players? In that case, hardware-wise the Samsungs are more feature rich, but you can't compete with the ground Apple has already gained all these years with features like iPod control/connections and 3rd party hardware, or Airplay, for example.
I have also an Android phone, and I use the Touch exclusively for music and video, and the Android phone for phone and google stuff, but bear in mind that my phone is one of the less powerful ones.
I don't know, I feel that making a conclusion from there that the clip+ is better in terms of audio quality in the sense of interpretation/ perception is rather valid
We have TOS#8 is to remind people that this is not true:
Acceptable means of support are double blind listening tests (ABX or ABC/HR) demonstrating that the member can discern a difference perceptually, together with a test sample to allow others to reproduce their findings. Graphs, non-blind listening tests, waveform difference comparisons, and so on, are not acceptable means of providing support.
If you want to talk about perception, you have to actually test perception. The reason no one bothers to do such tests is that a quick look at those results would tell you that the output is essentially identical, and thus you'd have to be crazy to expect to hear a difference
The clip+ does suffer in terms of noise during disk access or CPU with both normal or rockbox firmwares. I have now got used to it, but the effect is still there.
The clip+ does suffer in terms of noise during disk access or CPU with both normal or rockbox firmwares. I have now got used to it, but the effect is still there.
To what level does it suffer from noise? Is it only at low volume levels that it is there or is it there all the time because I have heard that the audio can hiss at low volumes in these players, I am not sure if it's true though.
The clip+ does suffer in terms of noise during disk access or CPU with both normal or rockbox firmwares. I have now got used to it, but the effect is still there.
But to my knowledge only with certain hardware revisions. I haven't noticed any problem, whereas a colleague, who bought a brand new one on Amazon, hears it.
The clip+ does suffer in terms of noise during disk access or CPU with both normal or rockbox firmwares. I have now got used to it, but the effect is still there.
But to my knowledge only with certain hardware revisions. I haven't noticed any problem, whereas a colleague, who bought a brand new one on Amazon, hears it.
Ah, ok, I am looking at the fuze V2, I wander if that will have it. I hope that it can't be heard when playing through my hifi, that would be annoying.
But to my knowledge only with certain hardware revisions. I haven't noticed any problem, whereas a colleague, who bought a brand new one on Amazon, hears it.
I've not seen any hard information that shows the noise issues are associated with any particular hardware version/revision. It might just be the result of QA in component sourcing and assembly, not related to specific versions. I don't know. Even if it could be directly associated with specific versions there is no way as a purchaser (or retailer) to make any distinction.
I bought my Clip+ from Amazon UK just over a year ago and it has obvious noise issues. Previously I had a Fuze v2, bought from Amazon UK in 2009, and that had some noise but it was barely noticeable. These are CPU or memory access noises, not a background hiss. Clip+ and Fuze have no hiss or hum during playback, but they can have an array of buzzes, pops, squeaks and crackles on pause, resume, volume change and, if eq is used in Rockbox, a good loud click on track changes too. If you were to somehow abx these players or compare frequency response and distortion data there's no reason you'd ever notice these problems because most tests and testers don't seem to be looking for them; the audio playback is essentially beyond criticism in those terms and under any normal test procedure. But you might find those impressive test results and reports were the result of measuring everything
except the players' most obvious imperfection. Apparently there are also many Clip+ players which don't exhibit any kind of noise problems so it's pot luck.
On the basis that if I broke/lost my 8GB Clip+ it would cost £30 to replace it while an iPod Video used, or a Classic new, would cost between 5 and 7 times that amount, I'd spend the £30. Personally I'd prefer the Clip+ over the Fuze because the wheel controller on the Fuze is very prone to wear and/or damage, at which point it may become unuseable, or at least very annoying to use, and also it's much too easy on the Fuze to have the microSD card pop out of the slot without you noticing; try finding one of those outdoors in the street, on the bus, in the grass, on the beach, at night.....
Some things to consider:
Older sansa's had separate volume controls for line out vs headphone out (line out through the charging/data port) so you don't have to adjust when you switch between phones and your stereo. I expect the latest Fuze does the same. The clip uses a basic USB connection, not the custom sansa port, so no line out.
Various models have different maximum output voltage, so may not be able to match other appliances feeding your stereo.
I am going to get the fuze v2 or at least this is the one I am thinking of, not the clip The fuze has line out but I have a question, what's the difference between the headphone input and the line out? To me, they both send sound from the mp3 player so I don't understand. Is the lineout a separate cable and not the usual line out (computer) size, is it a special one? Like ipods, i.e unique.
Also, sorry, may seem simple but what is the maximum output voltage? Does it need to match the hifi system? If I am using the amp from the hifi. Please explain, I have no idea, sorry,
Thanks,
Sam.
I am going to get the fuze v2 or at least this is the one I am thinking of, not the clip The fuze has line out but I have a question, what's the difference between the headphone input and the line out? To me, they both send sound from the mp3 player so I don't understand. Is the lineout a separate cable and not the usual line out (computer) size, is it a special one? Like ipods, i.e unique.
Thanks,
Sam.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=92595 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=92595)
Also, sorry, may seem simple but what is the maximum output voltage?
Check the section "maximum output" in the link to the clip+ tests I posted above. The FuzeV2 and Clip+ are identical in this regard.
I am going to get the fuze v2 or at least this is the one I am thinking of, not the clip The fuze has line out but I have a question, what's the difference between the headphone input and the line out? To me, they both send sound from the mp3 player so I don't understand. Is the lineout a separate cable and not the usual line out (computer) size, is it a special one? Like ipods, i.e unique.
Thanks,
Sam.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=92595 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=92595)
Also, sorry, may seem simple but what is the maximum output voltage?
Check the section "maximum output" in the link to the clip+ tests I posted above. The FuzeV2 and Clip+ are identical in this regard.
I have checked it, very interesting but I have a question, I am a newbie at this and was wandering what maximum output needs to be to provide decent quality through a hifi amplifier. I will plug it into my amp which are connected to hifi speakers. The clip+1 (Fuze v2 too..) has a max output of 489 mv and the ipod touch 474mv. Will the Fuze be sufficient for a hifi amp? What is needed. Sorry, I don't understand it's importance, all help would be much appreciated,
thanks,
Sam.
I have checked it, very interesting but I have a question, I am a newbie at this and was wandering what maximum output needs to be to provide decent quality through a hifi amplifier.
It doesn't really matter that much in practice, but a couple hundred mV should be fine. You can always use line out on a fuze which should work fine as well.
And the line out bypasses the Fuze's amp and utilizes the hifi's amp, making it sound much better. Thank you! Sudden clarity in my mind from a hell of a lot of distortion. So now all I need to do is find a line out cable that I could buy for the fuze when I buy them together. Great, does this make the fuze merely a data storage then by using line out as it bypasses the fuze's amp?
And the line out bypasses the Fuze's amp and utilizes the hifi's amp, making it sound much better.
Its not going to impact quality.
Great, does this make the fuze merely a data storage then by using line out as it bypasses the fuze's amp?
Aside from the differences discussed in the thread I linked, it doesn't really do much else difference for you.
In the forum you posted, most people said it would be unprocessed audio allowing it to be processed by the hifi amp rather than the player. Therefore I thought it would sound better going through a £300 amp than going through a £30 fuze too. I am a little confused sorry. How would I connect the lineout to the hifi if it didn't have a direct input, would using RCA audio cable or would that be worse quality? If I had an AUX should it provide beneficial audio over the RCA.
Therefore I thought it would sound better going through a £300 amp than going through a £30 fuze too. I am a little confused sorry.
You're not going to improve anything. We're talking about the output of an mp3 player. This is so trivially good enough that improvement is essentially impossible.
How would I connect the lineout to the hifi if it didn't have a direct input, would using RCA audio cable or would that be worse quality? If I had an AUX should it provide beneficial audio over the RCA.
Figure out what connectors your stereo has, then buy something that can connect to either of the ports on the mp3 player. AUX/RCA/etc are all fine.
Ok, i've been reading some more and I have one last question, with AUX input from line out, does the amplifier process the audio or is it the fuze. I understand that the fuze already has amazingly clear output of audio but I was just wandering as I can choose between RCA from the headphone out or AUX from the lineout.
Ok, i've been reading some more and I have one last question, with AUX input from line out, does the amplifier process the audio or is it the fuze.
Theres an amplifier in fuze. If you use headphones, its the only one. If you use amplified speakers, theres another before the speakers. Amplifiers don't really process sound, they just make it louder.
Ah, ok thanks, so if I connect it to my CD player instead which is in turn connected to my amp, then would the CD player process the sound?
Ah, ok thanks, so if I connect it to my CD player instead which is in turn connected to my amp, then would the CD player process the sound?
What model CD player do you have which has a line-in?
http://www.hyperfi.co.uk/marantz-cd6003-pl...tock-p-892.html (http://www.hyperfi.co.uk/marantz-cd6003-player-black-cd6003-bstock-p-892.html)
The Marantz CD6003.
http://www.hyperfi.co.uk/marantz-cd6003-pl...tock-p-892.html (http://www.hyperfi.co.uk/marantz-cd6003-player-black-cd6003-bstock-p-892.html)
The Marantz CD6003.
You sure about that?
http://marantz.co.uk/uk/Products/Pages/Pro...roductId=CD6003 (http://marantz.co.uk/uk/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?Catid=HiFi&SubCatId=SACDCDPlayer&ProductId=CD6003)
http://www.hyperfi.co.uk/marantz-cd6003-pl...tock-p-892.html (http://www.hyperfi.co.uk/marantz-cd6003-player-black-cd6003-bstock-p-892.html)
The Marantz CD6003.
You sure about that?
http://marantz.co.uk/uk/Products/Pages/Pro...roductId=CD6003 (http://marantz.co.uk/uk/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?Catid=HiFi&SubCatId=SACDCDPlayer&ProductId=CD6003)
Not really, will the USB in have full audio quality from lineout? I certainly have USB, it's a hard place to look because it is in a closed cabinet.
Not really, will the USB in have full audio quality from lineout? I certainly have USB, it's a hard place to look because it is in a closed cabinet.
USB audio is a port for plugging in your iPod (but not iPhone according to the product page). It transfers the audio digitally over USB and (assumedly) uses the CD DAC if you're using the Marantz's analog outputs and passes through if you're using the Marantz's digital out.
This is a completely different thing than the analog line-level connections discussed elsewhere in this thread.
Not really, will the USB in have full audio quality from lineout? I certainly have USB, it's a hard place to look because it is in a closed cabinet.
USB audio is a port for plugging in your iPod (but not iPhone according to the product page). It transfers the audio digitally over USB and (assumedly) uses the CD DAC if you're using the Marantz's analog outputs and passes through if you're using the Marantz's digital out.
This is a completely different thing than the analog line-level connections discussed elsewhere in this thread.
I'm fairly confused, the usb can also be used for the fuze right? It has a line out (from fuze) to usb cable which I assumed I could plug in a work fine, much like the ipod. Which is the best way for me to play audio files from a fuze on my hifi then? Best in terms of quality of sound etc... Sorry, please help, thanks.
That's exactly one of the things I was talking about before in this thread. That USB connection is one of the advantages of iPods. It is not meant to be used with the Fuze.
Some of these components that have USB iPod inputs though, can read MP3, WMA and/or AAC files from a usb stick/disk. If the Fuze can be read as a disk, it might work only for those types of files (I haven't seen one that does any lossless codec). Nothing is guaranteed unless you stick with the explicit specifications of your device.
That's exactly one of the things I was talking about before in this thread. That USB connection is one of the advantages of iPods. It is not meant to be used with the Fuze.
Some of these components that have USB iPod inputs though, can read MP3, WMA and/or AAC files from a usb stick/disk. If the Fuze can be read as a disk, it might work only for those types of files (I haven't seen one that does any lossless codec). Nothing is guaranteed unless you stick with the explicit specifications of your device.
Ah, ok, sorry, I see. It says it can read MP3, WMA etc... I guess WMA Lossless or MP3HD (Lossless) which are both compatible may work however it doesn't say it supports flac so I might have to go with MP3 or WMA lossless if I wanted lossless (Which I do). Should the audio of the usb be the same as from RCA or AUX?
Ah, ok, sorry, I see. It says it can read MP3, WMA etc... I guess WMA Lossless or MP3HD (Lossless) which are both compatible may work however it doesn't say it supports flac so I might have to go with MP3 or WMA lossless if I wanted lossless (Which I do). Should the audio of the usb be the same as from RCA or AUX?
No, it says it can read WMA / MP3 / AAC
off of CDsAnd even that does
not mean WMA lossless or MP3HD.
It might play those off of USB (as was mentioned above) but that is not explicitly stated in the specs. WMA / MP3 / AAC are mentioned under "CD compatibility".
I understand you are new at this, but many of these replies are due to you not reading completely.
London to a brick, if it says "MP3" or "WMA" it means the lossy versions. Without reasonably doubt, if it could accept lossless files it would state that, as it's selling to the bottom end of the audiophile market.
Should the audio of the usb be the same as from RCA or AUX?
No. USB is a digital "pipe". RCA is a connector type. AUX is an input label.
AUX is most likely an analog line-level input.
RCA is used for just about anything.
USB is never analog.
iPods (and only iPods at this time?) can transmit decoded audio digitally over USB.
iPods can also mount like an external hard drive and transmit undecoded audio files over USB. Sandisk players (and even thumb drives) can do this as well.
The CD player in question claims to play from iPods over USB. It does not claim to play from UMS / MSC (USB Mass Storage / Mass Storage Class) devices like dumb thumb drives and Sandisk players in USB mode. But I'm not saying it doesn't. It would be an easy test.
I'm not even sure why it's necessary or even preferable to connect the player to the CD player. With that kind of money one could have a nice modern input-friendly receiver. But in any case, as per the original question of this thread (except for the "sound quality only" part), I would say no contest; for all that's been discussed so far, iPod Touch 4 wins IMO. The thing is that it's pricier, but if those two players are only ones being considered, I see practically no advantage to the Fuze. Again, maybe if one is anti-Apple, a Samsung Galaxy player could be a much better choice.
iPods can also mount like an external hard drive and transmit undecoded audio files over USB.
I'm pretty sure iOS devices, at least the latest ones, don't do this. Are you sure other iPods do?
Oh, what the hell, I'll just give the easy answer. The iPod Touch 4, connected via USB to that CD player, will be able to play lossless ALAC, decoded and transmitted digitally. THAT's what you want, but what people here are telling you, is that there are more economical or simpler ways to achieve similar sound.
Ah, ok, sorry, I see. It says it can read MP3, WMA etc... I guess WMA Lossless or MP3HD (Lossless) which are both compatible may work however it doesn't say it supports flac so I might have to go with MP3 or WMA lossless if I wanted lossless (Which I do). Should the audio of the usb be the same as from RCA or AUX?
No, it says it can read WMA / MP3 / AAC off of CDs
And even that does not mean WMA lossless or MP3HD.
It might play those off of USB (as was mentioned above) but that is not explicitly stated in the specs. WMA / MP3 / AAC are mentioned under "CD compatibility".
I understand you are new at this, but many of these replies are due to you not reading completely.
I read that MP3HD was compatible with MP3 players and is works with all devices that are compatible with MP3. Equally, if it could play that audio format through CD then I didn't see why it couldn't play them through other means, sorry if I annoyed you.
Oh, what the hell, I'll just give the easy answer. The iPod Touch 4, connected via USB to that CD player, will be able to play lossless ALAC, decoded and transmitted digitally. THAT's what you want, but what people here are telling you, is that there are more economical or simpler ways to achieve similar sound.
Soap,
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/sansa-clip-measured.html (http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/sansa-clip-measured.html) was posted earlier, the Fuze V2 has the same components as the clip+, it, from it's test, show that the clip+ is a very similarly audio capable player, winning in some audible tests and losing in others but it's rather close. You said it could player ALAC lossless decoded and transmitted digitally (The Ipod), but I was wandering what the difference between decoded audio digitally transmitted over USB and transmitting undecoded audio files over usb and play them on the hifi (assuming they will even if they may not because we don't know yet). You also said "USB is a digital "pipe". RCA is a connector type. AUX is an input label", ok, I understand they are different but they are all separate inputs on my hifi, would going through AUX or RCA give worse quality sound from my lineout on my fuze? Sorry.
I read that MP3HD was compatible with MP3 players and is works with all devices that are compatible with MP3
Yes, but these devices can read only
lossy part of a MP3HD file.
I didn't see why it couldn't play them through other means
Because it doesn't know about FAT/NTFS/... filesystems and cannot read files from USB sticks? Just a guess.
Soap,
[...]You said it could player ALAC lossless decoded and transmitted digitally (The Ipod), but I was wandering what the difference between decoded audio digitally transmitted over USB and transmitting undecoded audio files over usb and play them on the hifi (assuming they will even if they may not because we don't know yet).
I said that, btw. If that CD player could decode ALAC or other lossless formats (which I could bet the house it can't) it would be the same. But now we're almost sure that it can't decode lossless, and we're not sure that it can read files from a USB disk/stick. You're asking the wrong questions, you've been warned about TOS #8 before. The drawbacks for me (and I think lots of people) of playing directly from a disk/stick is that the interface is almost always awful, and lack of options like Sound Check or Replay Gain. Another advantage of iPod direct USB connection is that you can usually control the music with your device's remote.
You also said "USB is a digital "pipe". RCA is a connector type. AUX is an input label", ok, I understand they are different but they are all separate inputs on my hifi, would going through AUX or RCA give worse quality sound from my lineout on my fuze? Sorry.
You misunderstand this. AUX is just the name of an input. It can have RCA connectors, or 3.5mm stereo, or whatever else. RCA is a
physical type of connector. It can be used to pass analog or digital audio, analog video, and other stuff. USB is a protocol for digital connection that uses its own type of connectors. Besides the iPod, audio over USB (as in LPCM) is not used anywhere else that I know, at least not in the consumer space.
Just buy an ipod and be done with it. The Apple kit isn't always the best or the cheapest, but it usually does the right thing without being complicated. In your situation thats probably the best option.