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Topic: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs? (Read 4954 times) previous topic - next topic
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Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Hello,

I have an old collection of MiniDiscs that I would like to digitise, here are some questions I have in mind:

1) Would if be better to do that through optical connection that analogic ?
2) Is optical = digital ? Hence, somehow "lossless" ?
3) What sound card with optical input would you recommend? (Thinking of soundblaster Z or RXR)
4) If digital/lossless, does the choice of the soundcard actually matter?
5) Any recommandation for a MiniDisc player with optical output ? I guess I could get some Sony MZ-1

Thank you go your help.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #1 –
With "optical" I assume you mean S/PDIF through optical. Whether you use optical or S/PDIF via coax, doesn't matter, really.
Both have benefits and drawbacks, but they're not related to the quality you'd get.

  • 1) Yes.
  • 2) it is digital in the S/PDIF case, but there data might be lossy compressed beforehand, as it is the case with MiniDisc (using ATRAC compression).
  • 3) I generally prefer external USB sound cards, which one in particular I can't say, I use them mainly for output purposes. My Behringer USB sound card does a good job, it also has a S/PDIF optical out (no input, though).
  • 4) Not really, except for the ultra "Wun Hung Lo" ones from china. A 1.2 USD sound card dongle might just break after five seconds or have a ton of other issues. So stay away from that. But in general: any decent quality soundcard will do just fine.
  • 5) I can't say. I used to have a Technics MiniDisc deck, and I used that for recording onto and playback.

Just understand, that MiniDisc is not lossless! The compression format is called ATRAC and has gone through various versions.

Ref.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_Transform_Acoustic_Coding

On a personal note: I love MiniDisc! Just about the best looking and fun format to handle. Too bad it didn't stand the test of time and was overtaken by solid state.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #2 –
There's a lot of things that could be on a MiniDisc.  ATRAC obviously, in various lossy forms, but also lossless ATRAC and Hi-MD.  Probably you will just take whatever decoded audio your player gives you and save it in a more modern format, but knowing the audio format you have might throw up more options.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #3 –
Thank you.

2) I know that MD can be lossy, but I never used their lossy algorithm. I always used the original MD format which if I got it right was identical to CD. Yet, even if they were lossily compressed, I'm talking of personal/friends recordings for which those MDs are the original source.
4) What I really meant was: will they all give identical quality or may some be better than others? I'm actually looking for the best possible result I can get.

I loved the MD object too, but, as I used them as some kind of (personnal) production tool, I got extremely disappointed when they announced digital transfer from MD to PC ... and I realised that this could only be done through some proprietary program which wouldn't let the user export the transfered sound in any standard format. I mean I would have loved something like Exact Audio Copy but for MD. Later I stopped recording and later MD had died.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Thomas C. on
2) I know that MD can be lossy, but I never used their lossy algorithm. I always used the original MD format which if I got it right was identical to CD. Yet, even if they were lossily compressed, I'm talking of personal/friends recordings for which those MDs are the original source.
Unless your MDs were recorded with a Hi-MD recorder, the audio format must be lossy. A traditional MD (approx 300MB) has less capacity than a Hi-MD (1GB) and non Hi-MD capable recorders can only have 292kbps lossy compressed ATRAC audio at best.

FYI
https://www.sony.net/Products/ATRAC3/overview/index.html

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #5 –
Ah, what I was using was "Stereo SP" (as mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc ). Which isATRAC. I always thought is was similar to CD becaused they made 74 and 80 min MDs, as for CDs. Thanks for the info.

Anyway, I'm now just looking for the optimal way to get them to .wav of .flac or something standard.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #6 –
Hello,
Quote from: Thomas C. on
I loved the MD object too, but, as I used them as some kind of (personnal) production tool, I got extremely disappointed when they announced digital transfer from MD to PC ... and I realised that this could only be done through some proprietary program which wouldn't let the user export the transfered sound in any standard format. I mean I would have loved something like Exact Audio Copy but for MD. Later I stopped recording and later MD had died.

Do you have a MD player with an USB port ? From what I have googled, you can transfer ATRAC files with SonicStage and decode them with FFmpeg.

    AiZ

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #7 –
Digital SPDIF transfer should work fine. I think the sound card should be able to lock onto the incoming sample rate from the external device to avoid clicks or resampling. I don't know how it is handled in current consumer sound cards; I suspect they may run off an internal clock always to make the design simpler. In my E-MU and M-Audio sound cards, I can select between internal and external clock source in the control panel application.

Sounds cards (probably all of them) should ignore the serial copy management bits, which prevented digital connection from being usable between two MD decks.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: AiZ on
Do you have a MD player with an USB port ? From what I have googled, you can transfer ATRAC files with SonicStage and decode them with FFmpeg.

Quite interesting, I have MZ-R55 (no USB), but I see that some players indeed have USB. Now, if I remember well, I'm not sure is SonicStage works with Win 10 or Win 7, but I could manage to get some Win XP system. I should investigate this tomorrow.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Thomas C. on
Ah, what I was using was "Stereo SP" (as mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiniDisc ). Which isATRAC. I always thought is was similar to CD becaused they made 74 and 80 min MDs, as for CDs. Thanks for the info.

Anyway, I'm now just looking for the optimal way to get them to .wav of .flac or something standard.
As I've said in my previous post, liked using MiniDisc, mainly for their very good quality for their size. Older MiniDisc recorders usually recorded in ATRAC1, later ones at lower qualities in ATRAC3. Hi-MD was a rather new invention. ATRAC lossless was kindof a special case, and not all players were able to record that. It greatly limited the capacity.

ATRAC Advanced Lossless was introduced in 1999 and then improved over the years.

You can obviously encode them to FLAC, but given they're already lossy you could technically use a high-quality lossy codec, as you wouldn't exactly lose a lot of information.

But your question was about the playback stage: When you're not absolutely sure it's ATRAC lossless, there's no reason to assume it is, it's almost certain, one of the lossy profiles have been used. Playback with S/PDIF be it optical or coax is fine either way. Also, when you're looking for a MiniDisc player: check out the decks that have been intended for home stereo use, not only portable Walkmans. Some of them are dirt cheap, and just like CD players, they very often come with an optical out. Some of them even contain an ASIO DAC and can be connected to a computer via USB.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Thomas C. on
Quite interesting, I have MZ-R55 (no USB), but I see that some players indeed have USB. Now, if I remember well, I'm not sure is SonicStage works with Win 10 or Win 7, but I could manage to get some Win XP system. I should investigate this tomorrow.
Well, NetMD was a thing where you could load music onto the player via USB.
It was one-way, though, you couldn't download the music off of the player via USB.
As I understand it, those were one of the last attempts at getting a little more life out of those players, now that MP3 player began flooding the markets.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #11 –
The only MD recorder that is able to upload from old MDs via USB to the PC (while using SonicStage) is the Sony MZ-RH1 -> http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MZ-RH1.html

You can find it on eBay for fairly steep prizes. Why the high prize? Because of exactly that feature. Some models before it are also able to upload via USB - but only if it was an analogue recording.

SonicStage will run on Windows 10. It's problematic but it works. You can find the software in its latest variant (and suggestions to install it) here -> http://forums.sonyinsider.com/

If you don't mind spending countless hours, any soundcard with an SPDIF input will do. But the input should ideally be 44.1 kHz to avoid resampling. I bought some simple internal 60 Euro soundcard able to do 44.1 kHz-based samplerates especially for that. On the MD side, the only portable that ever featured a digital output was the MZ1. Since it was the first model ever it is pretty rare and consequently fetches high prices on eBay. I would buy the stationary MDS-JE 500/510/520/530, all of them are pretty cheap on eBay and all of them have a digital output.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #12 –
When talking decks, I'd go for a Sony MDS-S500. Not even that expensive right now, and I think only released in Japan.
If those MiniDiscs are really prescious to you, and if you're OK importing from Japan, I'd take a look at an S500

http://www.sony.jp/audio/products/MDS-S500/
https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%BD%E3%83%8B%E3%83%BC-SONY-MDS-S500-MD%E3%83%87%E3%83%83%E3%82%AD/dp/B0001CPPUM

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #13 –
Why MDS-S500 rather than another one?

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Thomas C. on
Why MDS-S500 rather than another one?
Overall quality. It's from the end of the production line, and in case of MiniDisc, the technology kinda peaked when it was made obsolete by MP3-players. So getting one from the end of its era, is easier, and you end up getting a device that actually isn't that old. It supports all the MiniDisc standards that were available up to the end.

It is not (yet) a collector's item. It's not super-cheap, but priced, such that it is quite affordable still.

It has all the digital input and outputs that you need, specifically S/PDIF input and output.

It has both an ADC and DAC, so you can use it even as a digital recorder. It also comes with a USB interface, so I think it works with NetMD. Maybe you can use the USB interface for other stuff too, like remote control from the computer etc. Would be nice to see how hackable it is! ¦)

The biggest drawback - as I said - is that it was only released in Japan. So the total number of produced devices will be quite low, and it'll have to be imported from Japan, unless you can find someone who imported a device years ago, and is now selling them new-old-stock or used.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Cavaille on
You can find it on eBay for fairly steep prizes. Why the high prize? Because of exactly that feature. Some models before it are also able to upload via USB - but only if it was an analogue recording.

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,101080.msg835527.html#msg835527

I think that's why someone said SonicStage doesn't work, maybe due to the fact I was using the MZ-RH1.

I can confirm SonicStage works on Win7 x64 as well, when the x64 driver is properly installed.

I don't own the MZ-RH1, I used it in a restoration studio. MZ-RH1 can rip MDs via USB really fast.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: polemon on
Overall quality. It's from the end of the production line, and in case of MiniDisc, the technology kinda peaked when it was made obsolete by MP3-players. So getting one from the end of its era, is easier, and you end up getting a device that actually isn't that old. It supports all the MiniDisc standards that were available up to the end.

Nope. It doesn't support HiMD. You seem to be under the impression that the last one built is the best. Its ATRAC version wasn't more advanced compared to, say, a JE 530. Type-S didn't change the ATRAC1 encoding algorithm compared to Type-R, only the decoding for ATRAC3. Digital in/outputs were available on older models as well. The same for ADC/DAC. So why did you recommend it? Remember, the OP asked for copying already recorded MDs, not to create new ones.

Quote from: polemon on
It also comes with a USB interface, so I think it works with NetMD. Maybe you can use the USB interface for other stuff too, like remote control from the computer etc. Would be nice to see how hackable it is! ¦)

MiniDisc was always proprietary technology. To hack it is close to impossible as Sony never released details out of fear that people might circumvent the built-in digital rights management. Do you know how long it took to make NetMD available for Linux because of that? In addition, you forget that it is obsolete technology and that only a very small number of people is interested in it anymore. Besides, for playback-only NetMD is utterly worthless.

Quote from: polemon on
The biggest drawback - as I said - is that it was only released in Japan. So the total number of produced devices will be quite low, and it'll have to be imported from Japan, unless you can find someone who imported a device years ago, and is now selling them new-old-stock or used.

Precisely the reason why other devices are a more sensible approach.
marlene-d.blogspot.com

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #17 –
What I guess I should look for is a device with both USB and optical output so I can try SonicStage, and if that doesn't work I can get a soundcard and fallback on optical output.

Again, as it's digital, I guess any playback device will output the same.

j7n's comment about soundcard clock had me a bit confused ... I guess soundcard's dont advetise on that kind of settings and that's not the kind of settings I'm used to play with.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Thomas C. on
j7n's comment about soundcard clock had me a bit confused ... I guess soundcard's dont advetise on that kind of settings and that's not the kind of settings I'm used to play with.
You need a soundcard capable of external sync, or slave to your MD player. A soundcard with 44.1k support and optical SPDIF input is not guaranteed to be bit-perfect. I demonstrated the effect of unsynced recording in this thread:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/digital-distortion.2059/#post-55543

Regardless of audibility, unsynced SPDIF transfer is not bit-perfect, it may either suffer from clicking/dropout if the soundcard is not capable of resampling, or the recording is resampled, even on a 44.1k to 44.1k transfer since the clock speed of the MD player and the soundcard is not synced.

Apart from the suggested soundcards from j7n, my X-Fi Titanium HD (discontinued?) is also capable of synced optical SPDIF recording, which is called "bit-matched" by Creative.

Of course, there are other soundcards or USB interfaces with synced SPDIF support, you should either download the product manual from the manufacturer's website, send a email to the product support, or ask a question on their forums and specify your needs.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #19 –
If it were me, I'd prefer a digital transfer, but it's not the end of the world if you have to make an analog connection.   As long as your soundcard isn't noisy you should be able to get very good quality.     

It's going to be converted to analog when you play it, there's a good chance it was originally an analog recording, and an additional digital-to-analog-to-digital conversion should be OK.   The BIG weakness/limitation to analog was the medium (records & cassettes).

If you can't get digital to work and you're getting too much noise from your soundcard's line-in, you might consider getting a USB audio interface with line inputs.

Re: Advice about dematerialising MiniDiscs?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Cavaille on
Nope. It doesn't support HiMD. You seem to be under the impression that the last one built is the best. Its ATRAC version wasn't more advanced compared to, say, a JE 530. Type-S didn't change the ATRAC1 encoding algorithm compared to Type-R, only the decoding for ATRAC3. Digital in/outputs were available on older models as well. The same for ADC/DAC. So why did you recommend it? Remember, the OP asked for copying already recorded MDs, not to create new ones.
No, I'm not under the impression that the last one is the best, far from it. But it is reasonably priced. Especially when the use is gonna be pretty limited. The older models are actually more expensive, and that was one big consideration. If the Op has no HiMD discs - which are quite rare anyhow - then there's no sense in getting a HiMD capable player.

Quote from: Cavaille on
MiniDisc was always proprietary technology. To hack it is close to impossible as Sony never released details out of fear that people might circumvent the built-in digital rights management. Do you know how long it took to make NetMD available for Linux because of that? In addition, you forget that it is obsolete technology and that only a very small number of people is interested in it anymore. Besides, for playback-only NetMD is utterly worthless.
Depends on where you look. With the USB interface I was more getting at controlling the device over USB, which is relatively easy to reverse-engineer. I did that myself with VCDS devices used for interfacing the ECU on cars. VCDS is also about as proprietary as you can get, but it was still reverse engineered. With obsolete technology, it's the same thing. There are plenty of people who create and develop on the C64, mainly demos but the same group still develops hardware for those things.
Being a hardware design engineer myself, creating devices which work with older locked-in technology is fairly common.

Quote from: Cavaille on
Quote from: polemon on
The biggest drawback - as I said - is that it was only released in Japan. So the total number of produced devices will be quite low, and it'll have to be imported from Japan, unless you can find someone who imported a device years ago, and is now selling them new-old-stock or used.

Precisely the reason why other devices are a more sensible approach.
Well, whatever. I only tried to help.