Here's the sitch. I myself use foobar2K and my friends are all impressed by me using a laptop as a media server.
So now I need to set one up for one of my friends. However, I think f2K is too tweako for him by several orders of magnitude.
He's not a computer oriented guy, his main exposure is using a desktop for email, word processing and such.
He DOES know how to rip his CDs and encode them to properly tagged FLAC files (I configured EAC for him, thougjh I may
switch him to dbPoweramp).
Is there a really easy-to-use alternative to F2k? Like an iTunes that plays flacs? Because I don't want to
have to do constant IT support for his music server after it's set up. Ideally it should
-- play FLAC files
-- be able to scan a drive/folder and update the music library automatically
-- display album art (finding and downloading automatically would be nice too), and basic track information (title, album, artist, date, tracknumber)
-- allow EASY creation of playlists
-- allow tag/filename editing (this is secondary to the other functions)
Mediamonkey?
The latest free version now does folder monitoring, I believe...
http://www.mediamonkey.com/ (http://www.mediamonkey.com/)
Really, I don't see why a set-up installation of foobar2000 would not suit that need, other than the "automatically download album art" part. I install it on even my most computer-illiterate friends' computers and they have no problems at all.
foobar2000 is very simple, and takes incredibly little time to produce incredibly efficient and easy results.
Is there a really easy-to-use alternative to F2k? Like an iTunes that plays flacs? Because I don't want to
have to do constant IT support for his music server after it's set up. Ideally it should
-- play FLAC files
-- be able to scan a drive/folder and update the music library automatically
-- display album art (finding and downloading automatically would be nice too), and basic track information (title, album, artist, date, tracknumber)
-- allow EASY creation of playlists
-- allow tag/filename editing (this is secondary to the other functions)
Even though I'm a tweako type, I use WinAmp and find the UI to be really good right out of the box. I set it up with the "Big Bento" skin and "XP Noir" color scheme. I use the Steve Monks kernel streaming plugin for bit-perfect output. The playlist features are very flexible, much more than I ever use. There is a really nice youtube tutorial video on WinAmp playlists here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0inMFRga18). The skin shown is Big Bento with XP Noir colors. It does tag editing I think, but I use MP3Tag for that. One minor annoyance I had was the context menus were "skinned" (not standard Windows context menu appearance) and I couldn't see the highlight bar of the skinned context menus. This was default behavior as of 5.55. The way to get standard Windows context menus is to do: Winamp -> Prefs -> Media Library -> Appearance tab, uncheck "Use skinned menus". See this thread (http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=303699) for more info.
> Is there a really easy-to-use alternative to F2k? Like an iTunes that plays flacs?
J. River Media Center is what I use. It has a nice user interface that is somewhat like iTunes.
The user interface can use browser panes like iTunes or cover art (like iTunes.) A user can do the UI tailoring with menu commands - much easier and better documented than Foobar.
The J. River forums provide good information on use. Ask a questyion on the MC 14 forum and you can get advice from experienced and knowledgeable users.
MC 14 is not free. there is a free 30 day trial and there is an audio only free version (Media Jukebox) based on MC 12. (I still use MC 12 on my dedicated audio PC so Media Jukebox is a reasonable alternative.
Bill
Like iTunes and Foobar, it
I've been using J. River Media center for 3 1/2 years now. I recommend it as an easy-to-use secure ripper/tag
Must add one more criterion -- it has to work in Windows 7.
Really, I don't see why a set-up installation of foobar2000 would not suit that need, other than the "automatically download album art" part. I install it on even my most computer-illiterate friends' computers and they have no problems at all.
foobar2000 is very simple, and takes incredibly little time to produce incredibly efficient and easy results.
What's your preferred method of creating playlists?
Another vote for Winamp. Plays FLAC (and most other formats) straight out of the box, looks nice with default skins etc, etc
+1 for mediamonkey, the free version has just enough features and it can do everything winamp can do plus more, considering it uses the installed winamp engine
What's your preferred method of creating playlists?
Ctrl-N. Drag and drop/copy&paste from album list, facets or explorer. Autoplaylists from album list and facets. What does foobar2000 lack that you're trying to do?
foobar2000 is very simple, and takes incredibly little time to produce incredibly efficient and easy results.
Illogical playlist creation and the very incredible ease and simplicity with which they can be deleted may not suit the user in question.
VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/) is a possible candidate.
Free, unrivalled cross format support (check it out, it's the best), support for APE, ID3 and Vorbis tags, it plays video as well so album art etc is no problem, small desktop footprint and clear simple, scalable UI. Check it out. Looks ideal.
I love foobar, but from his post, he is looking for something that is more user friendly.
Foobar requires some reading and installing of plugins and files for performing conversions and the like.
I think he is looking for something with a better GUI and easy menus for changing settings; like iTunes but able to play FLAC instead of their knockoff ALAC.
PS
Illogical playlist creation and the very incredible ease and simplicity with which they can be deleted may not suit the user in question.
I don't get this complaint at all. I hardly see what's unintuitive about its playlist creation. Furthermore, if they're that critical, you can trivially make backups.
Once it's set up, there's nothing hard about foobar2000 at all. The only hard parts are in the configuration, and even that's only as hard as it has to be.
I do not get at all where foobar2000 is not "user-friendly". I've installed it on so many people's computers it's not even funny, and none of them have ever griped once about it being difficult. Sometimes they don't know how to to X so I set it up or show them, and the problem's solved. Often they remark: "Wow, that's easy!"
Don't get me wrong Canar. I think foobar is a wonderful product. Truly marvellous.
You start out with something simple then when it occurs to you to want something extra you go find,install, configure and use it yourself. So not only do you end up with something unique to your own needs which you understand completely but it's an enriching and educational journey along the way. In that respect, considering what you can do with it, you are right. It's simple and elegant. Playlists out of the box? I've seen Spotify so I don't think so.
The OP himself uses foobar but his specific request for his friend on this occasion was something else. I still thing he should check out VLC before trying to convince himself foobar would be best after all. but likesay your mileage may vary, product may contain nuts.
+1 for media monkey, tried it again after a year or so break and I'll never go back to WMP.
Illogical playlist creation and the very incredible ease and simplicity with which they can be deleted may not suit the user in question.
I don't get this complaint at all. I hardly see what's unintuitive about its playlist creation. Furthermore, if they're that critical, you can trivially make backups.
Once it's set up, there's nothing hard about foobar2000 at all. The only hard parts are in the configuration, and even that's only as hard as it has to be.
I do not get at all where foobar2000 is not "user-friendly". I've installed it on so many people's computers it's not even funny, and none of them have ever griped once about it being difficult. Sometimes they don't know how to to X so I set it up or show them, and the problem's solved. Often they remark: "Wow, that's easy!"
But generally it's easier -- or at least more intuitive or 'discoverable' for a newbie -- on iTunes.
In fact I've installed f2k one one friend's computer, which is why I'm looking for another player for my next one. Showing them how to do X is not as attractive to me as using software that is designed to let newbies figure out how to do X themselves (with a useful help function).
At risk of embarrassing myself, I've been using f2k for several years on a couple of computers, played with code in it , installed components , transcoded stuff, masstagged, etc. But typicaly I listen to music with my whole album list loaded into the playlist, with Shuffle tracks enabled, so I'm not often making playlists. When I do, I'm often confounded. Frankly I've never even
heard of 'facets', never used autoplaylist intentionally, don't know what Ctrl-N does (I assume it creates a new playlist?), haven't used 'explorer' I don't think, and have generally found making playlists from album list to be tedious as best and maddening at worst. I especially hate f2k's tendency to want to replace a current displayed playlist with whatever I click (I don't used tabbed playlists). Conversely I've spent 15-30 minutes compiling a playlist in f2k using album list or 'add to playlist' only to have it wiped out by an errant click. I've also been tripped up by not SAVING the playlist sometimes.
Don't get me wrong, I *love* foobar 2000. I know how good it is. I realize my problems with it include my own ignorance and lazy practice and a case of read the frickin' manual (though, oops there isn't one, or at least, not a complete one, and not one with consistently clear instructions) and of course not all of these roadblocks are peculiar to f2k. But compared to my friend I'm a computer guru and a f2k 'power user' and I'm still perplexed regularly. User-friendly, f2k ain't, though to its credit it never claims to be.
That sort of sums up my experience with fb2k as well. I've been a Winamp guy from long back and still use the old-style interface. To me playlists are files and I treat them as such.
For me fb2k is a wonderful tool for RG, splitting, joining and decoding mp3; but that's about it. Reading posts like this (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=76630) gives me a headache and is a real turn-off. I'm pretty much used to the tools that I use and chose them because they have the ability to do what I want without having to learn new syntax and lingo.
PS (OT): It isn't just fb2k, I feel the same way about REACT: too complicated to be approachable; especially when I have a system that works just fine for my current needs.
Not to throw fuel on the fire but I just feel a need to say something after skimming the past few posts.
If the thread starter wants something other than foobar2000, that is fine and there are plenty of options out there (none of which I would personally recommend). But I do feel that it's a real travesty that the person that will actually be USING the product isn't playing a role in the choice. Always being a Tech savvy person (CE/CS degree) I'm familiar with "helping" people make choices and "just setting things up" which always leads to constant calls/IM's/emails/etc. about how to do something. Furthermore I seem to be the go to person across all my friends/family/GF/GF family/etc. for just about everything. My advice is to stop. Tell them no or lie if you have to. You have to let them sink or swim eventually.
Now, onto my real issue with what has been said. The REAL main reason people have a hard time stepping into foobar is that they are just so use to WMP or iTunes or even to some extent winamp. The first time I ever used iTunes I was pulling my hair out. This was before I had ever used foobar. All previous experience with computer media players was with old school winamp around 2000 (Napster days) and a program called GoldWave which was only slightly a player (more of an editor). Eventually I found my way around iTunes, but still to this day I find the interface to be horrible (to put it lightly). For most people though they have used it for so long (most likely to apple/ipod/store conformity) it is just second nature and they don't stop and think/question if there is a better way. People just conform. The only other reason I think it can be intimidating to new users is the context menu IMO contains WAY to much and it's stuff 90%+ of people will NEVER need.
When I first started using foobar, I was enticed by the fancy configurations that you see posted and I decided to dive into the deep end with no knowledge. That was probably the wrong approach. Basically I spent most of my time hitting a road block and having to look for information. It was mostly due to my unfamiliarity of the application and certain keywords. Today, I would say a much better approach is to work with the default installation and avoid the fancy stuff (especially with how nice the new default UI is).
Looking at your requirements foobar hits all of them with only one real extra needed for automatic album art (I'd add the biography plugin that can provide artwork from last.fm. You don't even need Column UI, just follow THIS (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=70955&view=findpost&p=670827) post).
As for this playlist stuff I'm reading, I just don't get what people are complaining about. There are a lot of different ways you can create playlists in foobar. Lets go through a few:
File -> New Playlist/Load Playlist/Save Playlist
Right Click Song(s) -> Utils -> Save as Playlist
Select Song(s) -> Drag to Playlist Manager (if no pane access View->Playlist Manager)
Right Click anywhere in Playlist Manager -> Create New (or Ctrl+N)
Library Search (if no pane access Library->Search) -> click "..." to Create (auto)playlist (can also drag/drop to playlist manager)
These are just the ways I know/remember. There are no doubt other ways as well. And furthermore, you can create any context menu option you want REALLY easily in the preferences->Display->Context Menu or you could add a custom button anywhere you wanted by right clicking a toolbar->customize buttons->add button. So basically I'm saying if you can't figure out how to create a playlist from your songs, you aren't trying very hard. Personally I find the Search -> Create playlist to be the most powerful and elegant one stop shop way to handle my music. Even more than using facets (which is the genre/artist/album style thing from iTunes I never used) or whatever else. I mean I can search by genres, ratings, artists, albums, etc. easily and create playlists, all without using a mouse or taking my hands off the keyboard.
Now this issue with deleting playlists...another one I don't get. If you delete a playlist (which from my experience is NOT that easy because it seems to me the only place you can actually delete them is playlist manager) foobar doesn't even completely delete it! Just right click in the playlist manager->restore and it will be right there. And as already mentioned, you can save a playlist, which again has multiple ways to access, and put it where ever you see fit.
Finally I will say that foobar is of course not perfect and I do agree that there are certain things I personally would do to make it more familiar on first install. For instance I would at least have the "cursor follows playback" checked which I don't think is by default and can be very annoying. I would have the "library viewer selection playlist" disabled by default because, although it can be an interesting feature that some will find nice, I feel most people will dislike it and it is certainly not familiar when coming from another player. Let them get their feet wet and THAN discover the feature. Don't remember if there is a similar feature for the album list panel, but if so I'd disable it as well. I'd also like to see some change to the "playlist switcher" that can be added to toolbars. For instance I'd personally like to drop the need for a playlist manager pane and incorporate delete/move/rename/create into the switcher simply because I'm a minimalist. And finally I'd make a strong effort to create a universal help for syntax insertion. Like when you type tag syntax (ie. %artist%, %title%, etc.) in a bar it would make attempts to auto complete which would help new users, and even a button on the side to click and bring up a list of all tags you can insert (something like filters in wireshark for those that have used that unrelated app).
As for VLC, I've used it for music before. It's ok at best. The album art for me never worked correctly...EVER. The interface isn't really all that well setup for audio IMO. Things just aren't well organized for audio and if you try it for any extended period of time you will see what I mean. Plus I found certain settings I wanted required changing the menu to advanced mode, which than becomes very large and I would end up having to search google to find where things were...which is what you probably don't want since they'll just call you before they even bother searching online. I wouldn't use it for audio, but it can do the job. For video, I love it.
Sorry for the rambling, but it made me feel better.
I don't see much of a problem with foobar2000 (but you might want to wait until the proper 1.0 release).
About interface clutter: The whole interface is customizable, so make it as minimalist and practical, then export the whole theme. The context menu is customizable(in the beta) and generally the only issue with interface clutter is that people are unwilling to search through every option. Fix it so they don't have to!
About customization: Everybody wants to customize sooner or later, and this is up to personal preference. Also, no two music players are alike, so it is just impossible to have a player that will match your taste exactly. The differences in keyboard shortcuts always bug me, but almost all modern players have customizable shortcuts. foobar has more easily accessible options than many other players. Its interface is not intuitive in some places, but this beats many others who have options all over the place in multiple menus.
About help systems: foobar2000 is a bit lacking in this respect, since its help system is not self-contained (I have to check online to figure out what some options mean). I would suggest explaining the basic options and leaving the rest to this forum. Of course, there are certain little-known interface actions, such as double-clicking the status bar, dragging files onto a new playlist tab, customization of file properties display, custom columns and groups, crossfade options etc. which would be totally unknown to new users. However, I find the level of unpredictability in iTunes, WMP, and MediaMonkey higher than in foobar and Winamp. AIMP is somewhere in the middle, but between these options I think you will find that foobar is the only one which keeps everything less than 5 steps away (except for the album art thingy)
About video players: They are a bonus if music is not all that you want to play. In addition, they have a very compact interface when not playing videos. Other than that, there's not much that can be done (in my opinion, since I have never used VLC for music). Hence if you need to play music, use a music player. foobar2000 plays music.
I thought Foobar was very difficult to set up and avoided it. But then I found this guide: http://techie-buzz.com/media-tools/how-to-...sic-player.html (http://techie-buzz.com/media-tools/how-to-turn-foobar2000-into-a-super-music-player.html). I went to http://browse.deviantart.com/customization...ar2000/#order=5 (http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/skins/media/foobar2000/#order=5), and installed the theme DarkOne v1.6. So now there is nothing difficult about it, and it is better than anything else out there.
Sorry for the rambling, but it made me feel better.
dude, your entire post sounded exactly like what I would've said... so in that case, I'll just say foobar2000 +1 and leave it at that .
really, though, I started using it when I bought my first laptop (IIRC, over 7yrs ago) and needed a simple yet feature-rich application to manage/listen to all my music, and I can't say I've ever felt any qualms about its being the best application for my needs... even now that I've been an OS X user for going on 2yrs, I'm still using foobar2000 via Crossover (which works like a charm, by the way) and have yet to find another application that matches its simplicity/configurability and minimalist out-of-the-box design- not to mention it's the easiest way I've found in OS X to edit tags, add ReplayGain info, and convert to formats other than QuickTime AAC. and go figure- it's a Windows app.
and please- if someone's really that un-savvy with technology that they "accidentally delete a playlist" and as a result decide to give up on an application, I'm one to think that they shouldn't be allowed near a computer... what a weak argument if I ever heard one.
and please- if someone's really that un-savvy with technology that they "accidentally delete a playlist"
That would be me.
and as a result decide to give up on an application,
And yet I did not give up on foobar2k; quite the opposite. What is wrong with me?
I'm one to think that they shouldn't be allowed near a computer... what a weak argument if I ever heard one.
Ah, I'm seeing the Jimmy Fallon 'IT Helpdesk Guy" sketch from SNL in my head now.
This thread is amusing.
Bloke writes in to ask if anyone can recommend a music player a bit more straightforward to use and logically closer to current best in class than foobar. The potential user has no interest in customisation. He just wants to use it straight out of the box.
Half the respondents insist he is wrong and insist foobar actually is the most appropriate solution anyway. Often including long and detailed descriptions of techniques they have devised to suit their own personal preferences. It really is the simplest and most logical they argue.
Meanwhile over in the foobar forum itself. A genuine n00b writes in to say he has used iTunes or WinAmp or something similar and recently decided to give foobar a try but is having a little trouble with some of the differences in design philosophy he cannot answer by reference to the existing documentation. 'Could someone please help?'
The irony is of course that some clever clogs inevitably writes back, quick as a flash, that foobar is not meant for casual users and that if he cannot work it out for himself then foobar is obviously not for him and he should try iTunes or WinAmp or whatever instead. Er yeah right kthxbye.
Haha, totally. @krabapple, have you looked at songbird? It looks like an itunes that plays flacs.
Thanks, but I've decided the easiest path for me is to tell my buddy he has no right to even be using a computer.
KIDDING. Seriously, this thread's suggestions have been very helpful, and no disrespect for f2k was intended by suggesting that it is isn't the MOST user-friendly player app out there. Now if you'll excuse me I have to get back to figuring out what's wrong with my code in my f2k Graphical Browser configuration.
I'm just completely confounded by krabapple's reasoning and was trying to get more input.
If a playlist gets wiped, Ctrl-Z undoes the change, just like always. If you accidentally completely delete the playlist altogether, even
that is recoverable. Autoplaylists are as easy as right-clicking in the album list.
haven't used 'explorer'
My Computer? Files and folders? WTF.
I don't know how much more obvious you can get with the playlist metaphor than tabs, too. Even browsers are built around them these days.
Regardless of whether someone uses iTunes or foobar, if they don't know how to do something, they need to find out. While foobar's help might not be as extensive as say iTunes', all it really takes is asking me, in the case of friends.
I was asking for information, that's all. I
know it works fine for noobies because I've experienced how simple it is for them, how awed they are by how it just works, how trivial it makes even hard tasks. These are not technical folks. They're completely non-technical. Yet foobar2000 makes everything so straightforward that I've never seen them go back to iTunes or Winamp yet.
I'm not drinking the haterade. Use what makes you happy. I was just looking for valid arguments that can't be solved trivially, and I haven't found any yet, so I'm content.
and please- if someone's really that un-savvy with technology that they "accidentally delete a playlist"
That would be me.
and as a result decide to give up on an application,
And yet I did not give up on foobar2k; quite the opposite. What is wrong with me?
I'm one to think that they shouldn't be allowed near a computer... what a weak argument if I ever heard one.
Ah, I'm seeing the Jimmy Fallon 'IT Helpdesk Guy" sketch from SNL in my head now.
I never said there was anything wrong with you, nor were you included in my "keep away from the computer" statement, but there is some amount of familiarization that has to occur with anything computer-related, software or otherwise, and since you missed the point of my statement the first time through, I'll reiterate- anyone who will shrug aside an application just because of doing something simple like accidentally closing a playlist, and
not attempt to figure out what went wrong or if there is a way to undo the change, really needs to either gain a little motivation or steer clear of computers (since, as I said, computers take at least
some effort to use and figure out). where you determined that I included you in this statement, or that you need to tell your buddy to steer clear of computers, is beyond me.
but I digress- as Canar said, use what makes you happy, and since this thread is about your buddy, and it's clear that you prefer to introduce him to anything but foobar2000, all I can do is wish you and him the best of luck with whatever app you end up deciding on.
it's clear that you prefer to introduce him to anything but foobar2000
What an inflamatory an unnecessary remark.
Enough with the fanboy zealotry already (this is not just pointed at you jmcguckin).
I Think Foobar is the way to go, but I second media monkey and may be songbird
Enough with the fanboy zealotry already (this is not just pointed at you jmcguckin).
To be fair, the first post in this thread wasn't the most even-handed either.
From someone who is ambivalent about the topic at hand, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the initial post. I do see a lot of people getting defensive, however. RonaldDumsfeld hit the nail right on the head.
I think this is one occasion where we will have to agree to disagree.
PS: Again, I have nothing but complete respect for foobar2000 and admiration of those who have spent endless hours making it what it is.
PPS: And to be fair, I do know exactly how you guys feel whenever I see people saying EAC is a nightmare to configure.
Enough with the fanboy zealotry already (this is not just pointed at you jmcguckin).
To be fair, the first post in this thread wasn't the most even-handed either.
What it unfair about saying that I use F2K, yet don't consider it the most user-friendly music player out there (or even of the ones I've used)? Because that's all my first post implies about F2K. Has F2K ever striven to be the most user-friendly app for this purpose? I'd say not, it's goals are different (and also admirable). But it could be our definitions of 'user friendly' just differ.
Meanwhile over in the foobar forum itself. A genuine n00b writes in to say he has used iTunes or WinAmp or something similar and recently decided to give foobar a try but is having a little trouble with some of the differences in design philosophy he cannot answer by reference to the existing documentation. 'Could someone please help?'
The irony is of course that some clever clogs inevitably writes back, quick as a flash, that foobar is not meant for casual users and that if he cannot work it out for himself then foobar is obviously not for him and he should try iTunes or WinAmp or whatever instead. Er yeah right kthxbye.
If you'd do me the honour of pointing this out, I'll go deal with him myself. foobar is certainly accessible to casual users, though like all software, there are different approaches to solving problems and obviously some people would rather use their desired way to solve a problem instead of using these different approaches.
Like an iTunes that plays flacs? Ideally it should
-- play FLAC files [Yes]
-- be able to scan a drive/folder and update the music library automatically [Yes]
-- display album art [Yes] (finding and downloading automatically would be nice too) [Yes], and basic track information (title, album, artist, date, tracknumber) [Yes]
-- allow EASY creation of playlists [Yes, but not exactly sure what your criteria is]
-- allow tag/filename editing (this is secondary to the other functions) [Yes]
Songbird might be a perfect fit. It is very simple and easy to use, yet does everything you describe out of the box. To keep the interface extra clean, make sure to uncheck all unnecessary plug-ins during installation. The only potential problem I'm aware of is some people report performance issues with very large libraries.
What it unfair about saying that I use F2K, yet don't consider it the most user-friendly music player out there (or even of the ones I've used)? Because that's all my first post implies about F2K. Has F2K ever striven to be the most user-friendly app for this purpose? I'd say not, it's goals are different (and also admirable). But it could be our definitions of 'user friendly' just differ.
The issue is that other than automatically downloading album art, there's nothing in the list of requirements you make that foobar2000 doesn't do as effectively and user-friendly as any other music app, and it's certainly a sight easier than a lot of apps.
Given your first post, foobar2000 is really quite a good fit, you just don't seem to be familiar enough with its feature set to know some of the obvious answers (such as playlist creation).
You just seem to have this pre-conceived notion that it will not work for the application, which has proven itself to be false in my experience a couple dozen times. This seems bizarre for someone actually looking for the best tool for the job.
User-friendliness is actually a very pointed goal of foobar2000 and is a constant topic of discussion in the relevant IRC channels.
But hey, just write me off as another zealot fanboy...
What it unfair about saying that I use F2K, yet don't consider it the most user-friendly music player out there (or even of the ones I've used)? Because that's all my first post implies about F2K. Has F2K ever striven to be the most user-friendly app for this purpose? I'd say not, it's goals are different (and also admirable). But it could be our definitions of 'user friendly' just differ.
The issue is that other than automatically downloading album art, there's nothing in the list of requirements you make that foobar2000 doesn't do as effectively and user-friendly as any other music app, and it's certainly a sight easier than a lot of apps.
That F2K can
do lots of neat stuff doesn't mean it's necessarily
user-friendly...much less the *most* user friendly choice, which, if you'll note, is what I'm asking for in the thread subject. If you seriously believe F2K to be that, just say so. I think F2K is a great Swiss Army knife as media players go but *useful* is not the same things as user-friendly.
Given your first post, foobar2000 is really quite a good fit, you just don't seem to be familiar enough with its feature set to know some of the obvious answers (such as playlist creation).
And here I am , using it for a couple of years, still not quite on top of at least one fundamental function. Before visiting this thread again, for giggles, I just spent another few minutes at it, playing with various options for making playlists. Hilarity ensued-- including disappearance (overwriting) of an incipient playlist..'and they said it couldn't happen'.
Actually, I have an inkling what might be wrong (aside from just not needing to make playlists often enough in the past, to sit down and figure it out). Think I'll post a screen cap of my longstanding configuration, and maybe you'll see why I'm having a problem. It will be a new thread on a different subforum.
You just seem to have this pre-conceived notion that it will not work for the application, which has proven itself to be false in my experience a couple dozen times. This seems bizarre for someone actually looking for the best tool for the job.
User-friendliness is actually a very pointed goal of foobar2000 and is a constant topic of discussion in the relevant IRC channels.
I wouldn't know about IRC, I only know my experience with it as a very sympathetic user, and what comments I've seen here on HA about F2K's target user, over the course of a couple of years. User friendliness seems a late-come goal at best, whereas for a long time it was secondary or even tertiary to F2K's main thrust. That said, I applaud that all along F2k
could be got up and running with just a download and install (though even there you get choices which might daunt the naive user). Adding "Quick Setup' was a real move forward as well. But a comprehensive non-jargony help function/resource is still needed...as are help buttons that actually bring up help when you click them ...as well as immediate relief like mouseover popups explaining what an 'NG Group' is for example, or what a playlist vs a playback queue entails. You see where I'm going with this? The average user wants computery stuff to be as 'intuitive' as possible and when it isn't they want quick enlightenment. Apple's made a nice fortune off of these ideas.
Btw, one thing I've left out of this terribly fascinating discussion so far is that I
do have a couple of other friends who already have F2k experience via me. One took my recommendation two years ago to use it. After two years, he says he's ready to move on to something a bit less..intense. Btw, he's a PhD physicist btw and works in designing medical imaging devices and software. The other is in real estate, not a computer guy except for having to use Office and email at work; I set up F2K for him at home, loading my own fcl to make it easy (for me). But god forbid he ever accidentally (or on purpose) changes anything. Unlike my physics friend, there's little chance my RE friend could have set F2K up himself and about zero chance he could ever troubleshoot it on his own if a problem arose. Anecdotes aren't evidence but there you go, obviously my experinece has been different from yours in this area. Some more context: Like me, these are guys in their late 40s. They didn't grow up with video games, even, much less home computers. My generation missed all that by a year or two at least. I was definitely an early adopter among them, and even I didn't seriously pay attention to computers until around the time the Lynx browser came out.
Btw, did I mention that regardless of all this, I truly like and admire F2K for all the amazing stuff I *have* figured out how to do with it, and still use it as
my player of choice?
But hey, just write me off as another zealot fanboy...
Not my words. But you do seem
offended . Which was absolutely not what I was trying to do.
Rather than repeating the same line of arguments that Canar has used (which I agree with almost completely), have you looked at musicbee (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=70820)?
I can't say I've used it extensively, but for a brief time its development sparked my interest as something to recommend for people who try fb2k and for whatever reason don't like it (however dumb their arguments ).
It seemed to pretty much be an iTunes that plays FLAC.
My impression about the ultra pro fb2k angles is this:
IMO the fb2k developers have put in a great deal of work trying to make it more appealing to the non-technical. But I don't think it can (or even should be trying to) really compete with a good "out of the box", simple player (that said, I don't think anyone's written one yet - MusicBee, MusikCube (v.2 when/if it comes out) and MediaMonkey are probably the closest). The simple database based players currently out there aren't that good IMO, and fb2k is very good but too flexible/powerful to ever really be simple.
@ Canar, shakey_snake, anyone who knows fb2k inside out can make anything that needs to be done sound simple, but it's only simple because they already know how to do it. Properly simple software doesn't require a support forum.
So I can totally see where Krabapple's coming from, I was looking for exactly the same thing for the same kind of person (i.e. the kind of person who doesn't want to hear "and if you get stuck register @ xxx.com and ask them, they're really helpful"), and I never found anything that I could enthusiastically recommend. Like I say MusikCube v.2 (http://code.google.com/p/musikcube/) when it finally comes out, but their development is frighteningly slow.
C.
If you seriously believe F2K to be that, just say so.
I think so.
Think I'll post a screen cap of my longstanding configuration
Hilarity ensued-- including disappearance (overwriting) of an incipient playlist..'and they said it couldn't happen'.
Click on the playlist view (the one with the files) and hit Ctrl-Z. Files should reappear.
The feature that you seem to be struggling with here is the Library Viewer Selection Playlist. When it was created, it was enabled by default. Now it is disabled by default, for the very reasons you are showing right now. The setting can be changed at Media Library > Library Viewer Selection Playlist > Enabled.
But a comprehensive non-jargony help function/resource is still needed...as are help buttons that actually bring up help when you click them
This is wiki content. If you are confused by part of it, you could request a change or even change it yourself. I'm kind of a jargony guy, as are a lot of us. If you could give help improving documentation, I'm sure we'd all love it.
...as well as immediate relief like mouseover popups explaining what an 'NG Group' is for example, or what a playlist vs a playback queue entails.
"NG Group" is not a Default UI term. The queue is functionality most users do not need but some users want. Playlists are well-understood and playback queues are well-understood by those that want them. WMP also has this functionality.
One took my recommendation two years ago to use it. After two years, he says he's ready to move on to something a bit less..intense.
This is a "normal" user to you? My mom (housewife, 50s) uses foobar2000. My sister uses iTunes because she avoids what I like by default. My dad (carpenter, 50s) uses foobar2000. My grandma (retired, 70s) uses foobar2000. A bunch of girls I know use foobar2000 thanks to me. Lots of guy friends. My cat used foobar2000 once, though I doubt it was intentional. She turned it off.
But hey, just write me off as another zealot fanboy...
Not my words.
No, they're mine. And I am! And I'm actually kinda okay with being a zealot fanboy, though I really try hard to not be overly annoying. *waves a foobar2000 flag*
Another idea 1by1 (http://mpesch3.de1.cc/1by1.html)
All suggested players can't handle embedded cue sheets AFAIK, foobar can
and please- if someone's really that un-savvy with technology that they "accidentally delete a playlist"
That would be me.
I don't know about intentionally deleting it, but most of the other ways of wrecking a playlist (which I do often!) are sorted simply by clicking undo.
I thought Foobar was very difficult to set up and avoided it. But then I found this guide: http://techie-buzz.com/media-tools/how-to-...sic-player.html (http://techie-buzz.com/media-tools/how-to-turn-foobar2000-into-a-super-music-player.html). I went to http://browse.deviantart.com/customization...ar2000/#order=5 (http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/skins/media/foobar2000/#order=5), and installed the theme DarkOne v1.6. So now there is nothing difficult about it, and it is better than anything else out there.
What I'd like would be to download a single file (or archive), double click it (or something in it), and just have that lot set up for me. For example. Without any further input from me.
Cheers,
David.
Hmm.. I find Foobar the easiest to use of the 4 or 5 I have installed in Windows. Amorak is my overall favorite (Linux) but didn't work for me on windows the last I tried... that was their first shot alpha release, so maybe ok now.
amarok.kde.org
As stated a few posts above, J-River Media Jukebox MC 12 is an alternative, if you're looking for an iTunes type app that plays flacs...My prefered player is f2k, however am starting to really like MediaMonkey...It's nice that we have plenty of choices out there,eh!..
@ Canar, shakey_snake, anyone who knows fb2k inside out can make anything that needs to be done sound simple, but it's only simple because they already know how to do it. Properly simple software doesn't require a support forum.
2 things:
1) All software requires some sort of support forum because what is incredibly simple to one person isn't for everyone. I personally find iTunes incredibly frustrating to use, for example.
2) The hardest thing about fb2k (that might make what you are saying somewhat true) is the fact that fb2k is modular by design and sometimes users may need to install components that don't come in the default install package. However, http://www.foobar2000.org/components (http://www.foobar2000.org/components) goes a long way to making that about as easy as it's going to get.
But there's lots of simple stuff fb2k does extremely well, and in line with windows style guidelines which can't be said for most media players (like even WMP, for instance). In fact most software regularly used on Windows probably doesn't use the recommended interface metaphors, which is probably what makes fb2k confusing for some. I see that as a general Windows problem, though, not a fb2k one.
As for more anecdotal evidence, my wife uses fb2k+foo_upnp to play our music on her laptop all the time, without incident.
There's a lot things fb2k is good at, but I've had my biggest problems explaining this. It's difficult to explain metadata handling if people have some very obscure thoughts even about what files and folders are. Ever keep in mind there are people out there (and there are many of them) who cannot distinguish between the audio player and an audio file, because they are kind of overchallenged by the whole computer thingie)
Finally, I end up making things working via explorer and double click. And giving them wmp, because it has biiig buttons, gives them useless visual fx, speaks their language and they can ask someone else just in case... BTW why do fb2k folks often feel offended so quickly? At least this is my impression.
Personally I have my biggest problems with wmp, I'm always searching for functionalities. For me it is confusing, but for others wmp seems to work.
I don't think fb2k has to attract computer n00bs. Because from experience this is equivalent with loss of freedom. An old discussion. fb2k should be targeted against the techies. Period.
This post (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=42111&view=findpost&p=369198) is a great example of iTunes not making any sense or being easy, whatsoever.
The people interested in "easy" don't even know what ID3 means and would never have such a problem, let alone seek help for it.
I'm more looking at the user interaction metaphors.
1) "select tracks"
-ok people should be able to do this, although some people don't know how to select multiple items from a list using Crtl+click or shift+click. But iTunes has a lasso, right? Any dullard should be able to use that.
2)go to advanced->
- WTF, really? If you want to preform an action on something you just selected, why would that action be in the main menu? Isn't the purpose of a context menu to provide commands based on the context of what is selected?
Secondly, why is this menu called "advanced"? What does that description even tell someone looking for something? Here's what it tells me: "OK I need to look in other menus first, but if what I want to do is considered unlikely (but I need to do this right now, so it can't be too unlikely, right?) I should look in "Advanced". So let me hunt now..."
Look, to me this really seems like PC people trying to convince Mac people that Windows is really very simple. It seldom happens, and I don't suspect it's happening here.
Hopped in here to recommend MusicBee, but looks like someone already beat me to it. It's rather new so may not have all the esoteric features some other players have, but it's not from a lack of trying from the author's side. He's been working really hard & puts out beta releases often.
It's got some handy features for newbies like when new tracks are found by the folder monitoring mechanism those tracks appear in an inbox so they can be easily tagged & what-not before being permanently added to the library.
It should be on your short list of players to look at, krabapple.
As for more anecdotal evidence, my wife uses fb2k+foo_upnp to play our music on her laptop all the time, without incident.
Isn't this comment a bit sexist?
Hopped in here to recommend MusicBee, but looks like someone already beat me to it. It's rather new so may not have all the esoteric features some other players have, but it's not from a lack of trying from the author's side. He's been working really hard & puts out beta releases often.
It's got some handy features for newbies like when new tracks are found by the folder monitoring mechanism those tracks appear in an inbox so they can be easily tagged & what-not before being permanently added to the library.
It should be on your short list of players to look at, krabapple.
it is, thanks, along with Media Monkey and Songbird. VLC, not so much (I have tried that ). Heck I could even install both of them AND f2k and then walk my friend through all three, and let him pick which one feels 'right'. Think I'd better bring a few beers along for that.
So far I notice no one recommending Winamp (which back in the days before Foobar, was one I used fairly often.) Any particular reason? I see it does handle flac files nowadays, which it did not when I was a user.
So far I notice no one recommending Winamp (which back in the days before Foobar, was one I used fairly often.) Any particular reason? I see it does handle flac files nowadays, which it did not when I was a user.
Please see post #4 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=76776&view=findpost&p=671965).
The feature that you seem to be struggling with here is the Library Viewer Selection Playlist. When it was created, it was enabled by default. Now it is disabled by default, for the very reasons you are showing right now. The setting can be changed at Media Library > Library Viewer Selection Playlist > Enabled.
Actually I'm not dealing with the Library Viewer Selection Playlist here; I'm using an Album List Panel that I have permanently in my GUI, not the *other* Album List that pops up when I select Menu-->Library-->Album List (the latter is the one that creates a playlist called 'Library Viewer Selection'). I think my problem actually comes from this: the two Album Lists do not work the same way. Each has its own settings. The popup AL allows Ctrl-click selection of multiple items,but the Album List
Panel, as best I can tell, does not. Moreover with 'auto send to playlist' enabled' in AL Panel settings (as it is in my config), the AL Panel sends a clicked item from the Panel to a 'Library View' playlist (not 'Library Viewer Selection'). Clicking another AL Panel item
replaces the first selection, it does not
add to it. Very frustrating. Just disabling 'auto send to playlist' renders AL Panel all but useless to me as currently configured. What it seems I need to do is disable 'autosend to playlist' and then change the double-click action to 'add to playlist'. Then I can add items one at a time to a growing playlist.
(tried it) Ahh, that works...double clicked items are added sequentially to the Default playlist without overwriting. But it would still be nice to be able to select
multiple items in AL Panel at once then send them all to playlist. Can that be done?
But a comprehensive non-jargony help function/resource is still needed...as are help buttons that actually bring up help when you click them
This is wiki content. If you are confused by part of it, you could request a change or even change it yourself. I'm kind of a jargony guy, as are a lot of us. If you could give help improving documentation, I'm sure we'd all love it.
I would love to have the time to do it.
"NG Group" is not a Default UI term. The queue is functionality most users do not need but some users want. Playlists are well-understood and playback queues are well-understood by those that want them. WMP also has this functionality.
Sorry, meant 'NG Playlist". And as for playlist vs playback queue, I think it's optimistic to expect a naive user to knows the formal term(s) to articulate the functionality he/she wants, and their definitions. I usually 'learn by trying it' in such cases. In the case of queues, I learned that whatever a playback queue is in f2k, there seemed to be a limit to the number of tracks I could add to it, so I left it alone. I'm still not clear on what the purpose of it is, vs a playlist.
So far I notice no one recommending Winamp (which back in the days before Foobar, was one I used fairly often.) Any particular reason? I see it does handle flac files nowadays, which it did not when I was a user.
Please see post #4 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=76776&view=findpost&p=671965).
Thanks, I should have reviewed the thread again rather than rely on memory.
Actually I'm not dealing with the Library Viewer Selection Playlist here; I'm using an Album List Panel that I have permanently in my GUI, not the *other* Album List that pops up when I select Menu-->Library-->Album List
So you're using Columns UI? You realize that it's somewhat different in user-interface than what's installed by default, right?
But it would still be nice to be able to select multiple items in AL Panel at once then send them all to playlist. Can that be done?
Using the Default UI, yes. And you don't have to use "Send to Playlist" or anything. You can simply drag and drop.
I would love to have the time to do it.
I wish I could grant you that time.
Sorry, meant 'NG Playlist".
Still, Columns UI. Doesn't exist in Default UI.
I'm still not clear on what the purpose of it is, vs a playlist.
I've argued quite passionately that there is little purpose, but some people disagree. There are a few edge cases where it's handy, apparently. I just make playlists and play them. It's there mostly because users coming from other software want it, and it allows a few little tricks like setting up a switch between playlists.
Well, I never create playlists. I don't have the time or interest to do it. I thought musicip was pretty cool because it did an ok job of creating playlist on the fly, but anyway...
Maybe that is one reason I haven't really like fb2k. Is it playlist centric? I do like the iTunes/winamp columns to sort through the library and find songs I want to play.
I would consider myself an advanced PC user, and usually go back and try fb2k about once a year. It is getting better, but its not user friendly.
I use mediamonkey the most. I think Helium Music Manager is a good product as well.
Thanks, I should have reviewed the thread again rather than rely on memory.
I've been running Winamp on my music player HTPC, and based on the comments here I decided to give MediaMonkey another try. I tried it a couple of years ago, and either it's been improved a lot, or I just didn't "get it" the previous time I tried it. I am really liking the way this thing works. Configuration seems somewhat easier yet more flexible than Winamp. The Steve Monks kernel streaming Winamp plugin works with it too, so I get my gapless, bit-perfect playback. Also, it appears to have pretty powerful tag editing. I like that you can run it "un-skinned", as I much prefer standard Windows appearance to skinned applications. I may end up switching over now.
Edit: I just discovered another good thing about MediaMonkey. Winamp with the kernel streaming plugin, when configured for gapless playback, has a bug. It was discussed in this forum a while back. If you press the "stop" button in the middle of a track, then play another one, a buffer does not get flushed, and left over remnants of the data from the stopped song will briefly play before the new song starts. This problem doesn't seem to occur with MediaMonkey. I think I'm hooked .
Rather than repeating the same line of arguments that Canar has used (which I agree with almost completely), have you looked at musicbee (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=70820)?
I can't say I've used it extensively, but for a brief time its development sparked my interest as something to recommend for people who try fb2k and for whatever reason don't like it (however dumb their arguments ).
It seemed to pretty much be an iTunes that plays FLAC.
In case that somebody wants to give MusicBee a try, I would recommend the weekly updated (http://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?board=6.0) beta releases instead of main download link (stable). They are full of new features implemented by user requests. I've never seen such fast development and bug fixing.
Highly recommended.
All suggested players can't handle embedded cue sheets AFAIK, foobar can
But you're not sure, right?
Another easy to use player is AIMP2. You find it at http://www.aimp.ru/ (http://www.aimp.ru/). It has a wide codec support, including flac.
I've tried to start a pool about the favorite music player/organizer but it appeared that I don't have rights to do it.
The last such pool is from 2003 (total Foobar domination) so maybe it would be interesting to see what's the situation now?
I've sorted the suggestions in this topic by popularity, maybe this list can be used in the pool?
Foobar2000: 9
MediaMonkey: 9
MusicBee: 5
Songbird: 4
WinAmp: 3
iTunes: 2
J. River Media Center: 2
MusikCube: 1
Windows Media Player : 1
Helium Music Manager : 1
Amarok: 1
AIMP2: 1
i use foobar myself, but also have media monkey installed for when others are using my pc. A large amount of my rips are to flac images tho and media monkey as well as songbird( last time i tried) did not seem to support them out of the box. Do any of the other players mentioned offer this now?
MusicBee (http://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=551.0)
I was too humored by the flames getting tossed back and forth between the VLC and f2k "fanboys" along with the 3 or so simple 1 liner MediaMonkies (one of which was me and my 2 cents). See this thread progress into what is has has been crazy but I'm glad some of the opinions helped out- thats what counts
This is crux of the OPs question.
Is there a really easy-to-use alternative to F2k?
A really good answer to this question is Spotify (http://www.spotify.com/en/products/overview/)
In fact if your mates are so lazy they cba to do it themselves and think you are so gullible you'll do it for them it gets you out of an onerous heldesk support responsibility. It's also very good advice.
Someone else has professionally ripped, tagged, filed. secured and normalised pretty much every tune you already own plus a few more. The interface has been state of the art, best practise nailed. Album art automatic, its fast enough to preview tracks like you would with a stylus in a vinyl shop, almost any functionality available via 3rd party plug ins, light footprint, Gush Gush etc etc. You can even take it with you to any PC with the software installed!!
I know I'm being more than a trifle supercilious here. The OP asked for FLAC and quite clearly intended his friend to use his own local music. Also Spotify is Europe only atm and even then there is sometimes a waiting list for the Free service. Still think it warrants a mention though. Particularly for the type of consumer in question.
I have been collecting music in all formats now for nearly half a century and was initially sceptical and only tried it as a gimmick and because it was free but now 6 months down the line it's just too good an idea and totally what people want that even if Spotify itself fails a similar global juke box is an inevitability. All the music. None of the hassle.
I've made a poll here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=76851) because this discussion fascinates me.
Edit: and I split Squeller's post off to that poll, as it is related.
So far I notice no one recommending Winamp (which back in the days before Foobar, was one I used fairly often.) Any particular reason? I see it does handle flac files nowadays, which it did not when I was a user.
I think that the lack of recommendations for Winamp is not a sign that there is anything inherently wrong with that player. I think everyone just figured if you knew about foobar2000 then you most likely already knew about Winamp. It's near ubiquitous. *EVERYONE* knows about Winamp.
In case that somebody wants to give MusicBee a try, I would recommend the weekly updated (http://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?board=6.0) beta releases instead of main download link (stable).
Thanks for pointing out the beta releases. I meant to do so in my original post, but forgot.
Another easy to use player is AIMP2. You find it at http://www.aimp.ru/ (http://www.aimp.ru/). It has a wide codec support, including flac.
I recommend that anyone who wishes to try AIMP2 to proceed with caution. The last RC build I tried out (downloaded directly from www.aimp.ru) set off my firewall as the AIMP2 executable was trying to contact a web site called 007guard.com, a known malware propagating web site. i'd have written it off as a fluke except the subsequent RC build had the same behavior. I haven't tried the final release yet to see if this damnable behavior remains.
I think mediamonkey is one of the easiest to use.
While I freely admit that I'm a MM fanboy, I also openly admit that its not perfect and that I use a number of other tools in conjunction with it (dbpoweramp ripper, musicbrainz tagger, foobar for some of its unique/advanced features, cuetools, etc).
FWIW, I went with Media Monkey. My friend seems happy with it so far.