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Poll

File sharing

Unauthorized file sharing is not good for the music world.
[ 8 ] (15.1%)
Unauthorized file sharing is good for the music world.
[ 28 ] (52.8%)
Tough to say, it probably equals out.
[ 17 ] (32.1%)

Total Members Voted: 70

Topic: What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music? (Read 24941 times) previous topic - next topic
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What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #50
Agreed, GAO study is more general, but nonetheless acceptable for music piracy IMHO. It's "sizable", but not "measurable"

Are you saying that there can be accurate method for estimating music piracy impact on economy (or music industry, perhaps)?

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #51
No. What makes you think that? Maybe we are talking about different things here. Miscommunication? I've been talking about the studies, not (primarily) about the reports (and in GAO case, it's not just reports) that the studies, well study.  The studies itself are different, and like I said, even only with the reports, the end result is not the whole beef. I'm still perplexed why you posted and said that the GAO study is the "same"* as the completely different (and very small when compared) "Down the EU Piracy Rabbit-hole" study. Both GAO and "rabbit-hole" studies come to similar end result: criticizing piracy estimates. But so what, the studies are not the same. E.g. the "rabbit-hole" has this very interesting thing in it (a bit of a beef ), according to the author: "I've heard that [the studied report] findings influenced some of the MPs voting on the Digital Economy Act".

* As in: GAO study made "rabbit-hole" study redundant?

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #52
And what of old(er) music!
Does Pink Floyd miss the money from DSoTM?
Is buying this vs unauthorized downloading going to generate more Pink Floyd music?
How about Dean Martin for example?

If not, where do you draw the line?

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #53
Good point GHammer, I made this poll "general" on purpose so that the individual voters could bring up issues such as these. Another point that I don't think has been mentioned, I have some friends who live in countries that don't acknowledge copyright laws at all. There are more places than some might think that either don't recognized American copy right laws or they don't recognized any copyrights or patents at all.

My poll basically is, Unauthorized file sharing is it good or bad for the music world? For one it's up to us to decide what the "music world" is, you could look at it from the consumers perspective or from the artists perspective, or even from the industries perspective. And what's good for one might not be good for the others.

I think ultimately I wonder, will "unauthorized file sharing" lead to good changes for music, audio and information, or will it lead to bad changes? Will artists somehow figure out a way to thrive? Will consumers lose interest in artists because of the over-stimulation potential of file sharing. The long term evolution is hard to predict. Either way their is no doubt in my mind that even if it came to pass that not a single dollar is made from music in the future, that wont't stop artists from creating.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #54
My stepson was introduced to file sharing by his uncle many years ago and he now has a very large music collection that he paid nothing for. Much larger than mine. His friend then showed him how he could download free games for his xbox and he now has a very large collection of those. From what I understand there needs to be some kind of "mod" to the xbox in order for it to play some of these downloaded games. He has a friend that will do this for a modest fee. So there are obviously people making money on modding the xbox (probably other game consoles too) so that kids (and adults too I'm sure) can play free games on them. Now I know the topic is related to music but there has been some off-topic conversation on this subject as well.

The point I guess I'm trying to make is, when I was a kid I had to spend my hard earned money on albums/45s. There was no such thing as file sharing, or the internet for that matter. I still have to spend my hard earned money on entertainment. We are trying to teach this to our kids, my own kids try to download free music too and it is very hard to block these protocols. So my take on this is not so much what are the artists (and I include the people who write the software for games) losing in all this, but what is it doing to our youth?

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #55
I think artists have a right to decide how they produce their music, but that they're stupid if they think they can beat the internet. An intelligent artist in the 21st century needs to learn how to work WITH the internet, and that doesn't mean making up imaginary rules. It's not enough to whine 'it isn't fair' when there's nothing you can do to stop people. It's like a King telling me I can't hunt any animals on his land, and then getting mad that it happens anyway since his land is so vast.

Honestly, I don't really even know why artists still work with record labels. The internet makes it so cheap to produce yourself, and you'll never get a good deal with a record label even after you've gotten past the stage of 'prospect/hopeful.'

I'll continue to pay artists I like, because I want to encourage them to produce more work, but I'm not going to cry a river for record labels that are becoming obsolete. The new business should be in renting professional quality recording equipment to hopefuls, advertising for up and coming bands, and servers. If that means less ugly pieces of plastic being sold, I don't really think I'll miss them.

Really though, most broadcasting companies have even realised this, and have their episodes on the internet with ads on the site to make money. Why is an industry where it is a million times easier to create goods having trouble picking up this trend?

Quote
The point I guess I'm trying to make is, when I was a kid I had to spend my hard earned money on albums/45s. There was no such thing as file sharing, or the internet for that matter. I still have to spend my hard earned money on entertainment.

You didn't have libraries? You didn't lend things to friends? I realise the internet is much more prolific and destroys a previously viable industry, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think it's a fact of life. What effect is that going to have on your kid? I dunno, but I don't see any reason to believe it would be negative.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #56
what is it doing to our youth?


This is *exactly* why I say that this is not a technology problem.  Though of course the thieving behavior is not exclusive to minors.

I'll never forget when I was working in IT.  A department hired a group of contract programmers to work on-site for a specific application with a database backend and web-based front-end.  None of these contractors were older than about 25.  They came round asking where we kept "the software", because they just needed to borrow the discs and would bring them back once every contractor's computers were loaded up.  You wouldn't believe the list of server, app, and database software they wanted "to borrow".  It would have been on the order of, even with some existing volume discounts, like $5000 per machine.  They looked kinda dumbfounded when we told them to go to their department and make a purchase order.  As if *paying* for software was an uncommon thing.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #57
Miscommunication?

Maybe.
About which EU study are you talking about? Your linked blog is talking about EU report (which seems to be product of study of course), and lack of EU analysis on the subject. Are you considering that blog a study?

MPAA, RIAA.. etc reports brought GAO study on them, which also matches that EU report example IMO
Does GAO makes future studies redundant? - I haven't said that, nor I think that's the case, but it opens future for other studies based on different reports which will base their findings on more sane data, experienced by above mistakes

Hey, what am I talking about

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #58
Good point GHammer, I made this poll "general" on purpose so that the individual voters could bring up issues such as these. Another point that I don't think has been mentioned, I have some friends who live in countries that don't acknowledge copyright laws at all. There are more places than some might think that either don't recognized American copy right laws or they don't recognized any copyrights or patents at all.

My poll basically is, Unauthorized file sharing is it good or bad for the music world? For one it's up to us to decide what the "music world" is, you could look at it from the consumers perspective or from the artists perspective, or even from the industries perspective. And what's good for one might not be good for the others.

I think ultimately I wonder, will "unauthorized file sharing" lead to good changes for music, audio and information, or will it lead to bad changes? Will artists somehow figure out a way to thrive? Will consumers lose interest in artists because of the over-stimulation potential of file sharing. The long term evolution is hard to predict. Either way their is no doubt in my mind that even if it came to pass that not a single dollar is made from music in the future, that wont't stop artists from creating.


I'm sorry to say that I find that I am set in my listening ways. I like folks from the 60s 70s and 80s. I have minor exceptions from later times, but out of my collection 429 of 919 artists are from those decades. It's unlikely that unauthorized file sharing is going to impact my music world unless I decided to partake of the 'free' music. Then it would be a benefit to me.

Do I think there will be another Beatles or the like? Nope. Not because of the economics of file sharing. Because there are far too many outlets competing for attention. And far too many people who live in there little iPod world listening to what they listen to alone. There isn't going to be AM radio's audience and disk jockeys who take a chance on playing a band.

The one thing that record companies brought to the table in the old days was marketing. And that market doesn't exist any longer. It would be impossible to command the attention that Elvis, The Beatles, U2 got in their time. I'd wager that any of them would never see 30% of the attention they got simply because of how fragmented things are today.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #59
OTOH, luckily for EU people, ACTA can't easily pass through EU Commission, but it will need to go through EU Parliament
Thanks God, no US savers here

I just parsed my daily dose of RSS and there were some bad news:

Quote
New to this draft is an option, clearly targeting European law, that would explicitly allow Internet disconnections
[on DMCA in ACTA]: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/20...cta-is-here.ars
Quote
Our own investigation shows that several of the most controversial provisions have been tweaked for the better, though problems remain. Let's take a look.

More:
Quote
Perhaps ACTA's most unfortunate provision is the imposition of "secondary liability." This obscure provision of copyright law holds that a business, such as a manufacturer or Internet provider, should be liable for a third party's copyright infringement.


Still... court order is required before your digital devices got searched at the borders. Have anyone experienced this visiting US?

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #60
but what is it doing to our youth?

Youth & culture? Reinforces "me-want-everything-now-and-for-free"?

I don't really even know why artists still work with record labels.

Maybe it's still attractive enough because labels have lots of resources, knowhow, connections (marketing, distribution, etc.), ?, and in "one package"? EDIT: Micromanaging might be just too much for an artist/band. [edit end] I don't know exactly.. but I guess labels do something right too, otherwise they would've fallen ages ago.

Are you considering that blog a study?

Sorry for the late reply, have been exhausted by other things. Yes. It's a study (albeit very small). What else? We agree that both of those quotes/summaries we posted included "criticism of piracy estimates". But to me the quotes, studies, the reports/studies/sources the studies study are different to me as a whole. Hopefully this makes sense, It seems that I've problems to describe what I mean. Anyways, I think that it's not fruitful to continue this. At least I can't think of anything else to say to this.


Interesting to see that the "don't know" and "not good" options have got more votes in the poll. Especially the "don't know", I guess I expected to see more clear "black/white" result.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #61
Interesting to see that the "don't know" and "not good" options have got more votes in the poll. Especially the "don't know", I guess I expected to see more clear "black/white" result.
More votes than what?  Current vote are:

Good: 15
Not good: 7
Tough to say, it probably equals out : 12

I think there's quite a difference between "don't know" and "Tough to say, it probably equals out".  Personally I think there are both positives and negatives. I certainly know people who just stopped buying music.  I also believe that YouTube videos and using file sharing to trial music can be a good thing, in the same way that borrowing albums from a friend can be a good thing, if you then buy subsequent albums and pay for concert tickets, tee-shirts, etc.  So, sometimes they benefit, sometimes they don't.

but what is it doing to our youth?

Youth & culture? Reinforces "me-want-everything-now-and-for-free"?
Totally agreed.  Although it's not just the youth.  In a similar vein, we have so many people indebted to credit card companies because they seem to think that they deserve brown goods right now, whether they can afford them or not.  I guess the kids are just learning from us.
I'm on a horse.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #62
Quote
I don't know exactly.. but I guess labels do something right too, otherwise they would've fallen ages ago.

I chalk that up to tradition, and laziness. I mean, there's the old business saying "I'd rather have a little of a lot, than all of a little," but I really don't think it applies to this industry anymore. I think it's just people excited to say they've made it, and the traditional mark of that is getting a contract (although as anyone in this industry knows, that means nothing. It's sold out concerts and fans that tell you you've made it).

I think the start up cost of a band is really minimal if they just utilize the internet. I think that basically the thing they're doing right is not what they're doing, but just people in general being ignorant of their options because the options are so new... There's no footsteps to walk in yet. You wait, in 30 years when there are footsteps to walk in everyone will be doing this via internet.

Quote
Totally agreed. Although it's not just the youth. In a similar vein, we have so many people indebted to credit card companies because they seem to think that they deserve brown goods right now, whether they can afford them or not. I guess the kids are just learning from us.

And for this we're blaming the internet? I don't think the internet teaches irresponsibility. It's like blaming laptops for college/university students not doing well because they are playing games on them and not paying attention to the lecture. If they didn't have laptops they'd just be doodling on paper or finding some other way to waste their tuition. You can't blame technology for human ethics. I'd like to know what's so bad about the 20-25 year olds of today that have had the freedom the internet offers, since you think it's such a bad thing. They seem like a group of pretty hard working nice people to me. If you're talking about your teenager being irresponsible, then I'd say that's pretty much how teenagers have been in every generation. That's more to do with brain development still in action than anything else.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #63
More votes than what?

Whoops, than when I last checked the votes.

Although it's not just the youth.

Yes, that was my meaning too behind that "& culture", it should have included "in general".

And for this we're blaming the internet?

I don't think anyone here blamed the interwebs nor technology.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #64
And for this we're blaming the internet?
I don't think anyone here blamed the interwebs nor technology.
Agreed; I certainly never implied that (although I'm not sure of SnTholiday's position).  File sharing is not the cause of, but merely a tool for, this behaviour.  Still, let's not that stop a good rant, eh?
I'm on a horse.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #65
LimeWire goes down http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64C0UP20100513

Quote
...expert witnesses, Dr. Richard Waterman of the Wharton School, who testified that a random sample of 1800 files turned up copyright infringement in 93% of them, including 43.6 percent of copyrighted files owned by the plaintiff record labels. Based on the results, Dr. Waterman concluded that "98.8 percent of the files requested for download through LimeWire are copyright protected or highly likely copyright protected, and thus not authorized for free distribution."

also on doom9 forum news: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1399651#post1399651

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #66
It may look like I'm trying to push this topic but I'm not trying - it's already on top  I just read this from another blog, so it's like couple of days old:

Quote
Jagger: ...people only made money out of records for a very, very small time. When The Rolling Stones started out, we didn't make any money out of records because record companies wouldn't pay you! They didn't pay anyone!
Then, there was a small period from 1970 to 1997, where people did get paid, and they got paid very handsomely and everyone made money. But now that period has gone.
So if you look at the history of recorded music from 1900 to now, there was a 25 year period where artists did very well, but the rest of the time they didn't.

What are your thoughts on unauthorized file sharing of music?

Reply #67
Calling file-sharers "pirates" is like calling jaywalkers "crosswalk rapists".