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Topic: LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2. (Read 6068 times) previous topic - next topic
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LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

So far i've been using LAME 3.98.2 at -V2 for over 2 weeks now. But after a while i found some tracks from my lossy collection that are easy to ABX at V2 and sometimes easy to spot artifacts with my iPod earbuds  . Sadly most of the artifacts i've spotted is regression from 3.97.

An example:

LAME 3.98.2 -V2

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.8
2009/07/25 12:14:44

File A: C:\Music\Albums\ohGr - SunnyPsyOp\02. maJiK.mp3
File B: C:\Rips\Music\ohGr - SunnyPsyOp\02. maJiK.flac

12:14:44 : Test started.
12:15:01 : 01/01  50.0%
12:15:06 : 02/02  25.0%
12:15:10 : 03/03  12.5%
12:15:13 : 04/04  6.3%
12:15:19 : 05/05  3.1%
12:15:24 : 06/06  1.6%
12:15:30 : 07/07  0.8%
12:15:36 : 08/08  0.4%
12:15:44 : 09/09  0.2%
12:15:54 : 10/10  0.1%
12:16:00 : 11/11  0.0%
12:16:08 : 11/12  0.3%
12:16:14 : 12/13  0.2%
12:16:18 : 13/14  0.1%
12:16:26 : 14/15  0.0%
12:16:29 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 14/15 (0.0%)

Nasty distortion at 1:00.

Any way i made a edit version and will soon upload it for anyone else wanting to try the sample out. For some reason the artifact moved on the edit.

LAME 3.98.2 V2 (Edit)

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.8
2009/07/25 12:32:49

File A: C:\Temp\Samples\maJiK (Edit).flac
File B: C:\Temp\Samples\maJiK (Edit) -V 2 LAME 3.98.2.mp3

12:32:49 : Test started.
12:33:04 : 01/01  50.0%
12:33:13 : 02/02  25.0%
12:33:16 : 03/03  12.5%
12:33:20 : 04/04  6.3%
12:33:24 : 05/05  3.1%
12:33:29 : 06/06  1.6%
12:33:34 : 07/07  0.8%
12:33:38 : 08/08  0.4%
12:33:43 : 09/09  0.2%
12:33:48 : 10/10  0.1%
12:33:53 : 10/11  0.6%
12:33:57 : 11/12  0.3%
12:34:02 : 12/13  0.2%
12:34:10 : 13/14  0.1%
12:34:17 : 14/15  0.0%
12:34:26 : 15/16  0.0%
12:34:27 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 15/16 (0.0%)

Distortion at 0:07.

LAME 3.97 -V 2 --vbr-new

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.8
2009/07/25 12:34:41

File A: C:\Temp\Samples\maJiK (Edit).flac
File B: C:\Temp\Samples\maJiK (Edit) -V 2 --vbr-new LAME 3.97.mp3

12:34:41 : Test started.
12:35:03 : 01/01  50.0%
12:35:14 : 01/02  75.0%
12:35:24 : 02/03  50.0%
12:35:29 : 02/04  68.8%
12:35:33 : 02/05  81.3%
12:35:39 : 03/06  65.6%
12:35:44 : 04/07  50.0%
12:35:49 : 05/08  36.3%
12:35:54 : 05/09  50.0%
12:36:00 : 06/10  37.7%
12:36:03 : 07/11  27.4%
12:36:09 : 08/12  19.4%
12:36:15 : 09/13  13.3%
12:36:27 : 10/14  9.0%
12:36:32 : 11/15  5.9%
12:36:38 : 12/16  3.8%
12:36:46 : 13/17  2.5%
12:36:53 : 14/18  1.5%
12:37:01 : 14/19  3.2%
12:37:14 : 15/20  2.1%
12:37:15 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 15/20 (2.1%)

Sounds better then 3.98.2.

LAME 3.98.2 vs LAME 3.97 (Sample)

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.8
2009/07/25 12:38:08

File A: C:\Temp\Samples\maJiK (Edit) -V 2 --vbr-new LAME 3.97.mp3
File B: C:\Temp\Samples\maJiK (Edit) -V 2 LAME 3.98.2.mp3

12:38:08 : Test started.
12:38:18 : 01/01  50.0%
12:38:22 : 02/02  25.0%
12:38:26 : 03/03  12.5%
12:38:30 : 04/04  6.3%
12:38:34 : 05/05  3.1%
12:38:39 : 06/06  1.6%
12:38:43 : 07/07  0.8%
12:38:49 : 08/08  0.4%
12:38:53 : 09/09  0.2%
12:38:59 : 10/10  0.1%
12:39:03 : 11/11  0.0%
12:39:06 : 12/12  0.0%
12:39:12 : 13/13  0.0%
12:39:18 : 14/14  0.0%
12:39:23 : 15/15  0.0%
12:39:29 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 15/15 (0.0%)

LAME 3.97 version sounds better. File B had noticable distortion at 0:07.

I will post some more ABX logs and samples possibly this weekend or early next, depending how much time i have.

EDIT:

MaJiK sample
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #1
Do you test it with  3.99a1? Maybe this regression is gone... I hope...
Living forevermore, leaving today, back to my place, I've got: Nothing to say!

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #2
How about with the ancient 3.90.3?
"Listen to me...
Never take unsolicited advice..."

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #3
How about with the ancient 3.90.3?



It usually doesn't work that way . Problems with VBR are typical to all versions - sometimes better or worse depending.  In my experience V1 brings some improvements where v3 / v2 have trouble. A high ABR setting or b320 can also provide headroom. Given that space is no longer at such a premium it might make some sense to use V1 or even --abr 287 -h for extra security.

@/mnt: I am interested if a setting like --abr 287 -h will soften or even eliminate these issues ?
wavpack hybrid 256k -hx4

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #4
anyone else with great ears here for testing this sample and confirm the results of mnt?
FB2K,APE&LAME

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #5
Could you give me a heads up on the settings you used? I'm using 3.98.2 via XLD with the following settings: -V 0 -q 2

I haven't noticed any artefacts yet - in fact, I've found it as good if not better than Apples own AAC encoder.

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #6
No great ears here, but I tested the sample using 3.98.2 -V2 and couldn't hear the problem.

@/mnt:
Is there a problem with -V0?
I'm also interested in the result of shadowking's ABR proposal.
lame3995o -Q1.7 --lowpass 17
opus --bitrate 140

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #7
This question may be odd (and ot), but could someone please give me a hint where to download 3.97, preferrably the bundled version? -- Thank you.


LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #9
Some more examples:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.8
2009/08/03 09:35:43

File A: E:\Music\Albums\Rage Against The Machine - Evil Empire\02. Bulls On Parade.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Bulls On Parade (V2 LAME 3.98.2).mp3

09:35:43 : Test started.
09:36:04 : 01/01  50.0%
09:36:10 : 02/02  25.0%
09:36:18 : 03/03  12.5%
09:36:32 : 03/04  31.3%
09:36:36 : 04/05  18.8%
09:36:43 : 05/06  10.9%
09:36:47 : 06/07  6.3%
09:36:55 : 07/08  3.5%
09:37:01 : 08/09  2.0%
09:37:12 : 08/10  5.5%
09:37:17 : 09/11  3.3%
09:37:35 : 10/12  1.9%
09:37:40 : 11/13  1.1%
09:37:44 : 12/14  0.6%
09:37:48 : 13/15  0.4%
09:37:52 : 14/16  0.2%
09:37:56 : 15/17  0.1%
09:38:02 : 16/18  0.1%
09:38:09 : 17/19  0.0%
09:38:13 : 18/20  0.0%
09:38:17 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 18/20 (0.0%)

Precho at 0:37 - 0:38. Transparent on LAME 3.97 at V2 --vbr-new.

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.8
2009/08/03 09:39:47

File A: E:\Music\Albums\Skinny Puppy - Ain't It Dead Yet\08. One Time, One Place.flac
File B: C:\Temp\One Time, One Place (V2 LAME 3.98.2).mp3

09:39:47 : Test started.
09:40:00 : 01/01  50.0%
09:40:05 : 02/02  25.0%
09:40:10 : 03/03  12.5%
09:40:14 : 04/04  6.3%
09:40:19 : 05/05  3.1%
09:40:23 : 06/06  1.6%
09:40:30 : 07/07  0.8%
09:40:42 : 08/08  0.4%
09:40:47 : 09/09  0.2%
09:40:58 : 10/10  0.1%
09:41:05 : 11/11  0.0%
09:41:20 : 12/12  0.0%
09:41:22 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Flanging warbling type artifact at 1:15. Sounds fine on LAME 3.97 at -V2 --vbr-new.

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.8
2009/08/03 19:21:10

File A: E:\Music\Albums\ohGr - SunnyPsyOp\01. HiLO.flac
File B: C:\Temp\HiLO (LAME 3.98.2 V2).mp3

19:21:10 : Test started.
19:21:30 : 01/01  50.0%
19:21:34 : 02/02  25.0%
19:21:45 : 03/03  12.5%
19:21:51 : 04/04  6.3%
19:21:59 : 05/05  3.1%
19:22:04 : 06/06  1.6%
19:22:11 : 07/07  0.8%
19:22:19 : 08/08  0.4%
19:22:24 : 09/09  0.2%
19:22:28 : 10/10  0.1%
19:22:36 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)

Wet precho at 1:18.  This track is ABXable with 3.97 (at the start) though.

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.4 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.8
2009/08/03 19:29:55

File A: C:\Temp\HiLO (LAME 3.98.2 V2).mp3
File B: C:\Temp\HiLO (LAME 3.97 -V2 --vbr-new).mp3

19:29:55 : Test started.
19:30:30 : 01/01  50.0%
19:30:37 : 02/02  25.0%
19:30:42 : 03/03  12.5%
19:30:46 : 04/04  6.3%
19:30:51 : 05/05  3.1%
19:30:59 : 06/06  1.6%
19:31:06 : 07/07  0.8%
19:31:11 : 08/08  0.4%
19:31:15 : 09/09  0.2%
19:31:26 : 10/10  0.1%
19:31:31 : 11/11  0.0%
19:31:36 : 12/12  0.0%
19:31:37 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)

Both versions sound abit different at the start, but the annoying precho at 1:18 is not present on the 3.97 encode.

In my experience V1 brings some improvements where v3 / v2 have trouble. A high ABR setting or b320 can also provide headroom. Given that space is no longer at such a premium it might make some sense to use V1 or even --abr 287 -h for extra security.

@/mnt: I am interested if a setting like --abr 287 -h will soften or even eliminate these issues ?

I agree that V1 does make improvements.

I could try them at ABR, but those issues do go away at -V1 and -V0 most of the time.

@/mnt:
Is there a problem with -V0?
I'm also interested in the result of shadowking's ABR proposal.

I will give the ABR setting a go.

Most of my regression issues do go away at V0, but the bitrates that LAME 3.98.2 produces at V0 is HUGE (256 - 300 most of time).
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #10
Thanks for testing at -V1 and -V0, /mnt.
I'm glad to hear that the most of the problems are gone with -V0.
Extremely high bitrate can be tamed by using -Y, or --lowpass 16.0 or 16.7 or 17.5 according to personal preference, and/or using mp3packer on the Lame results.
I'm looking forward to your very high bitrate ABR results.
lame3995o -Q1.7 --lowpass 17
opus --bitrate 140

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #11
Just a quick question, are you still using that Sound Blaster Audigy SE quick googling found you mentioned? If so, it would be best if you used 48 kHz resampling when you test.


LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #13
Just a quick question, are you still using that Sound Blaster Audigy SE quick googling found you mentioned? If so, it would be best if you used 48 kHz resampling when you test.

I using a Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Gamer now, which Creative replaced the Audigy with due to the Audigy's imfamus 48khz resampling issue. Sadly this sound card sounds worse on Vista without using Kernel streaming and WASAPI, yes i know no ABX to prove but i like to know a good way to ABX both software and hardware mixers under Vista.
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

LAME 3.98.2 regression issues at V3 - V2.

Reply #14
I've had a quick go at --abr 287 -h, and so far those tracks seems to be transparent. I will do a retest on ABR tommorow night.

Also i've done a sample of one of the tracks which has 1:00 - 1:30 edited onto wav. Am not sure if the artifact will appear though.

One Time, One Place (Live) [Sample]
"I never thought I'd see this much candy in one mission!"

 
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