HydrogenAudio

Lossy Audio Compression => MP3 => MP3 - Tech => Topic started by: MrDrew on 2007-11-04 05:42:57

Title: Sample Shows LAME 3.97 -V2 (old vbr) better than -V2 --vbr-new
Post by: MrDrew on 2007-11-04 05:42:57
It’s been awhile since I’ve given LAME a critical listen, and today I came up with some interesting results with an old sample (GBTINC):

Link to GBTINC Sample (http://klenk.s3mi.com/audiotest/gbtinc.flac)


I can easily ABX this sample with LAME 3.97 with:  -V2 --vbr-new

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.1 report
foobar2000 v0.9.4.5
2007/11/04 00:24:59

File A: C:\gbtinc_397_v2new.mp3
File B: C:\gbtinc.wav

00:24:59 : Test started.
00:26:39 : 01/01  50.0%
00:27:07 : 02/02  25.0%
00:27:30 : 03/03  12.5%
00:28:37 : 04/04  6.3%
00:29:00 : 05/05  3.1%
00:29:58 : 06/06  1.6%
00:30:08 : 07/07  0.8%
00:30:19 : 08/08  0.4%
00:30:45 : 09/09  0.2%
00:31:14 : 10/10  0.1%
00:31:28 : 11/11  0.0%
00:31:36 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/11 (0.0%)



For curiosity’s sake, I tried the same sample but this time without  --vbr-new.  I thought it sounded better, and an ABX confirms:

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.1 report
foobar2000 v0.9.4.5
2007/11/04 00:39:17

File A: C:\gbtinc_397_v2new.mp3
File B: C:\gbtinc_397_v2.mp3

00:39:17 : Test started.
00:40:07 : 01/01  50.0%
00:40:31 : 02/02  25.0%
00:40:40 : 03/03  12.5%
00:40:56 : 04/04  6.3%
00:42:32 : 05/05  3.1%
00:42:42 : 06/06  1.6%
00:42:56 : 07/07  0.8%
00:43:18 : 08/08  0.4%
00:43:45 : 09/09  0.2%
00:44:12 : 10/10  0.1%
00:44:20 : 11/11  0.0%
00:44:28 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/11 (0.0%)



So... I guess with this sample at least --vbr-new isn't so great.  I'm curious as to what others think.
Title: Sample Shows LAME 3.97 -V2 (old vbr) better than -V2 --vbr-new
Post by: enVias on 2007-11-04 06:13:20
I'm pretty sure it's already known that there are a few rare cases where vbr old is better than vbr new

P.S. Love the track that's sampled from, Sy & Unknown are great.
Title: Sample Shows LAME 3.97 -V2 (old vbr) better than -V2 --vbr-new
Post by: MrDrew on 2007-11-04 06:28:51
I'm pretty sure it's already known that there are a few rare cases where vbr old is better than vbr new


You're 100% right on that.  Haha, I should have said "ANOTHER sample where vbr old is better than vbr new"

P.S. Love the track that's sampled from, Sy & Unknown are great.


Yeah, I'm a big fan too!  Gotta love the happy2bhardcore cd's  =P
Title: Sample Shows LAME 3.97 -V2 (old vbr) better than -V2 --vbr-new
Post by: /mnt on 2007-11-04 11:01:47
I found a sample a month ago that LAME 3.90.3 APS and -V 2 --vbr-old to be transparent while -vbr-new does poor even at -V 0 --vbr-new. Also I have found a few tracks on my music collection that perform better on LAME 3.90 then LAME 3.97.

V0 --vbr-new Killer Sample:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=58152 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=58152)
Title: Sample Shows LAME 3.97 -V2 (old vbr) better than -V2 --vbr-new
Post by: sld on 2007-11-04 16:13:12
I hope I'm not getting the feeling that people would rather tolerate slower encodes with --vbr-old rather than help improve the sound quality of --vbr-new.
Title: Sample Shows LAME 3.97 -V2 (old vbr) better than -V2 --vbr-new
Post by: MrDrew on 2007-11-04 16:37:01
I found a sample a month ago that LAME 3.90.3 APS and -V 2 --vbr-old to be transparent while -vbr-new does poor even at -V 0 --vbr-new. Also I have found a few tracks on my music collection that perform better on LAME 3.90 then LAME 3.97.

V0 --vbr-new Killer Sample:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=58152 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=58152)


That's a great sample!  My hope is that changes can be made from all these samples to improve upcoming lame builds.  How are you finding -V 2 --vbr-new overall with lame 3.97 (and the 3.98 betas)?  So far, with the exception of a few sporadic samples... I'm finding quality to be pretty good.

I hope I'm not getting the feeling that people would rather tolerate slower encodes with --vbr-old rather than help improve the sound quality of --vbr-new.


I'd 100% rather help improve --vbr-new.  My hope is that finding problem samples for --vbr-new will help the lame developers to use those samples to make positive changes to --vbr-new.  From past listening tests on HA it appears that --vbr-new is already of better quality than --vbr-old.  If the relatively few problem samples for --vbr-new can be fixed, it will surely increase quality even more 
Title: Sample Shows LAME 3.97 -V2 (old vbr) better than -V2 --vbr-new
Post by: /mnt on 2007-11-04 16:53:54

I found a sample a month ago that LAME 3.90.3 APS and -V 2 --vbr-old to be transparent while -vbr-new does poor even at -V 0 --vbr-new. Also I have found a few tracks on my music collection that perform better on LAME 3.90 then LAME 3.97.

V0 --vbr-new Killer Sample:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=58152 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=58152)


That's a great sample!  My hope is that changes can be made from all these samples to improve upcoming lame builds.  How are you finding -V 2 --vbr-new overall with lame 3.97 (and the 3.98 betas)?  So far, with the exception of a few sporadic samples... I'm finding quality to be pretty good.

I hope I'm not getting the feeling that people would rather tolerate slower encodes with --vbr-old rather than help improve the sound quality of --vbr-new.


I'd 100% rather help improve --vbr-new.  My hope is that finding problem samples for --vbr-new will help the lame developers to use those samples to make positive changes to --vbr-new.  From past listening tests on HA it appears that --vbr-new is already of better quality than --vbr-old.  If the relatively few problem samples for --vbr-new can be fixed, it will surely increase quality even more 


Here is some tests I did that LAME 3.97 -V 2 --vbr did worse then LAME 3.90.3 and most of the time LAME 3.98b did the same or better then LAME 3.90 (APS) at --vbr-new (V2).

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=58061 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=58061)
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