HydrogenAudio

CD-R and Audio Hardware => Audio Hardware => Topic started by: Rush82 on 2019-10-27 14:25:49

Title: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-27 14:25:49
The playback of m4a format on several files have a gap at 3:10(minutes and seconds)or suddenly the track stops to switch to the following song. 
In addition to this, car radio doesn't recognize all folders/artists inside usb pen(only 180 about an overall of 230).
I'm using a 128gb usb pen and qaac 2.67 codec, 44,1khz 16bit, true variable bitrate quality 100(by dbpoweramp).
What can I do to have a normal playback?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: saratoga on 2019-10-27 14:33:24
Embedded AAC decoders tend to have poor compatibility in my experience, especially with encoders other than iTunes. Try some Apple files and see if they work better?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-27 14:45:47
I have just ended to encode my music collection by qaac codec in the hope It was the trouble(before It was aac fdk). I wouldn't like to make it again. Other alternatives? Do you suggest other car radios?
 
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Roseval on 2019-10-27 15:10:09
M4A is a container. In your case it contains AAC.
I had more or less the same problem with android media players.
Songs missing, tags missing, etc.
I'm afraid Saratoga is right, the decoder is poor.
Kenwood says MP3, WMA, AAC, WAV, FLAC
Take any none-AAC format.
I suggest high bit rate MP3 if you want a lot of tracks on a 128 gB stick
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-27 15:47:46
Could I re-encode my whole collection by Itunes?
aac qaac>aac itunes
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Roseval on 2019-10-27 16:25:14
Bit unclear to me as I don’t use iTunes
My workflow:
- almost all audio I have is lossless
- make a playlist
- choose the desired format conversion in the media player
- the media player (MusicBee) transcode (on the fly format conversion) to a portable
An example: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MusicBee/MusicBee_Sync.htm
Wouldn’t be surprised if iTunes can do the same
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-27 16:43:53
Thanks. I'll take a look.
What about other car radios?
Is It a trouble of all car radios theoretically able to playback aac/m4a files?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Roseval on 2019-10-27 18:22:18
Can't tell you
Had bad luck with Android / AAC
In the car I use Bluetooth to play the audio on my portable.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-27 19:14:20
No luck about Sony and now Kenwood.
I'll try Pioneer and Alpine since Jvc is very similar to Kenwood.
In case I'll post some feedback.
Thanks for replies.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2019-10-27 19:58:35
I've been using a Kenwood KMM-BT304, which looks somewhat similar to yours, and I didn't notice any issues with AAC playback (qaac). Although I only tried USB playback for a little while, I mostly use Bluetooth now.
Did you try updating the firmware? Different USB stick?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-27 21:17:36
It seems interesting. Are you sure you used qaac? Which program did you use to make qaac?
Firmare is already updated. I made test with two usb sticks.
Could you test further qaac inside usb stick? I have 230 folder/artists inside my usb stick.
Let me know.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2019-10-27 21:41:30
Yes, qaac converted with Foobar as m4a files. I don't have 230 folders to test right now, but I can try playing your problematic files.

BTW, I remember on a completely different car radio there were problems with mp3s that had a disc number in the tags. Maybe check that there isn't anything weird or unusual in your files.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-28 15:31:50
Thanks for courtesy.
I have tried removing tags from m4a/aac files: no difference, same problems.
I'm waiting for your feedback.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: saratoga on 2019-10-28 16:08:08
Good AAC compatibility usually means something running Apple, Android or Windows. AAC is a complicated, relatively high memory format which embedded decoders tend to struggle with. Rockbox is better than average but even then there are files we can't decode.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-29 10:26:06
Surprising, since AAC was born in 1997(according to wikipedia).
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2019-10-29 16:19:47
Well, I was able to reproduce the "gap at 3:10" bug, even with my own files. At first glance it seems to be related to either the file size or the track length (smaller files don't have this bug).
I probably didn't notice this bug before, but it's also possible it was introduced with one of the firmware updates.

I'll send an email to Kenwood, but I'm not holding my breath for a fix.

Let us know if you find a solution or a different car stereo that doesn't have this problem.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-29 18:46:01
Thanks for feedback and email.
For my car radio there is european and asian firmware.
Could I flash asian one?
Asian firmware is "te1806k.krm" while european one is "te1803k.krm".

Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2019-10-30 12:44:16
I've no idea. I doubt it would do anything to fix this issue, though.

BTW, Kenwood support replied to me and said they will look into it.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-10-30 16:05:42
Thanks for help.
Did you warn them about tracks suddenly stop to switch to the next one too?
In the meantime  I have returned Kenwood Kdc-bt530u and ordered an Alpine UTE-92BT.
We'll talk for feedback.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-11-01 08:15:44
Report for Alpine UTE-92BT.

Pros:
1)Audio quality is amazing.
2)m4a/aac playback is PERFECT!!! No gaps, no tracks suddenly stop to switch to the next one.

Cons:
1)Only subfolders(albums) are shown. No main folders(artists)!!!
2)Car radio doesn't recognize/show all subfolders(albums) inside usb pen.

What a pity!!!
I'm going to return it.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-11-01 08:53:11
I'm going to order Pioneer DEH-S510BT or MVH-S510BT.
We'll talk for feedback.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: DVDdoug on 2019-11-01 15:55:53
The "modern way" is Bluetooth and a phone (or iPod or other audio player with bluetooth).

I have an iPod classic and two vehicles with iPod docks.    I chose that solution because at the time the iPod was a "standard interface" and anything with an iPod dock would "just work".     I installed a stereo in my van with an iPod dock and I got an iPod dock adapter for the factory stereo in my Honda.  
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2019-11-02 22:31:18
Yeah, when I was buying a new 1DIN unit last year I learned that the market is basically stuck in the past with little effort to innovate or polish the products. Software which just barely covers the specs on the box, but forget about gapless playback or ReplayGain or variable playback speed, sane folder navigation... As for the hardware, it's usually tiny plasticky buttons and crappy displays. 2DIN isn't much better, either. Can't get full Android unless you order some sketchy unit from China.

So Bluetooth seem to be the sanest option, as long as it connects reliably, which is not a given (I had issues with an older Alpine unit). And then you still run into problems like the volume on the phone suddenly dropping, because of "hearing safety" measures...
I better stop ranting now.

Let us know about the Pioneer.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-11-04 07:58:21
Thanks for comprehension.
I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-11-10 17:01:17
Report for Pioneer DEH-S510BT.

Pros:
1)Not as good as Alpine UTE-92BT but anyway great audio quality.
2)m4a/aac playback is PERFECT!!! No gaps, no tracks suddenly stop to switch to the next one.
3) All folders(main=artists; subfolders=albums) are shown.

Little Cons:
1)search modality could be better(I have to push "up arrow for" 2-3 seconds to show folders list).
2)when I turn off and on the engine the car radio takes a bit to recognize usb pen.

I have organized my music collection by 3 levels.
1)First level: alphabet letters for corresponding artist
2)Second level: artist folders
3)third level: album folders
Now It's easier browsing between folders.

I suggest to try it.

PS: all m4a/aac files made by dbpoweramp and codec qaac 2.67.


Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-11-14 10:42:17
How can I add "Solved" in the topic title?
How can I do a little change to the topic title, too?
Let me know.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-12-08 22:45:56
Kenwood released a new firmware for KDC-BT530U.
https://www.kenwood.com/cs/ce/receiver/firmware/2019/2019b/eng.html
Playback problems may be fixed.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2019-12-15 19:18:09
New firmware is a joke.
All like before.
Don't waste time!!!
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2019-12-16 23:07:36
Yeah, I doubt this fw update is related to these bugs. No new fw for my model either.
Kenwood support have told me that they confirmed the "silence gap" bug and passed it to the design team, but they didn't say anything about a fix yet.

BTW, if you have some reliable way to trigger the "track stops to switch to the following song" bug let me know. Unless I give them the exact steps/conditions to reproduce the bug, they won't work on it.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: saratoga on 2019-12-16 23:49:03
The company selling you the stereo is just repacking the SOC vendor's decoders, so even if they wanted to help you, they can't actually change anything about how audio decodes.  You're stuck with what the hardware supports. If that isn't good enough, you should buy a different unit.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2019-12-17 14:40:52
You might be right. I still want to see what they say about it and if they replace it with something that works properly or give money back. Not sure what rights I have as a customer in a case like this.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: saratoga on 2019-12-17 18:54:42
If you aren't happy with it, take it back to wherever you bought it and ask for you money back.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2020-03-16 17:18:36
A new firmware update came out on March 5th and it seems to fix the AAC "silence gap" bug. At least I couldn't reproduce it anymore, when I tested it briefly.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-03-31 15:58:13
A new firmware update came out on March 5th and it seems to fix the AAC "silence gap" bug. At least I couldn't reproduce it anymore, when I tested it briefly.
Do you own a Kenwood KMM-BT304?
Does It recognize now all folders/subfolders?
Could you test further?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2020-04-01 10:44:14
Yes, KMM-BT304.
I don't know about the folder/subfolder thing, because I don't know exactly what the problem was.
I can test it, if you give me more detailed steps to reproduce the issue. What's the folder structure (drive root\folder\subfolder\song.m4a)? Is the problem with too many folders or too many subfolders? Does the problem occur when trying to navigate the folders/subfolders or during playback, when it goes from one folder to another automatically?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-04-11 20:58:35
Yes, KMM-BT304.
I don't know about the folder/subfolder thing, because I don't know exactly what the problem was.
I can test it, if you give me more detailed steps to reproduce the issue. What's the folder structure (drive root\folder\subfolder\song.m4a)? Is the problem with too many folders or too many subfolders? Does the problem occur when trying to navigate the folders/subfolders or during playback, when it goes from one folder to another automatically?
Folder structure is root\folders(artists)\subfolders(albums)\songs.m4a. The problem concerns the fact that not all folders(artists) are shown: only 180 about 230. The issue happens when I try to browse whole folders(artists).
There is also the trouble that some tracks suddenly stop to switch to the following songs.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2020-04-14 11:15:24
So I ran a little test. Since I don't have 200+ folders of music ready to fit on a USB, I converted individual songs into folders, like so: root\[folder with song title]\song title.m4a. In total 203 folders/songs.
What I noticed is that it messed up the playback order a bit, but it did seem to play all of them. Alphabetically, it skipped the first 30 or so, but then those skipped songs eventually showed up somewhere in the middle.
So if I didn't check in the middle I might think that they were gone and that is only shows around 170 folders total, which is close to around 180 you mentioned.
Is this how it works for you too, or are they completely missing and you can't find them anywhere? It is a bit cumbersome to navigate the folders with those buttons, so I don't blame you if you didn't check.

There is also the trouble that some tracks suddenly stop to switch to the following songs.
If you have a reliable way to reproduce this (or specific tracks/albums that always do this) I can try it.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-04-19 18:00:18
"So I ran a little test. Since I don't have 200+ folders of music ready to fit on a USB, I converted individual songs into folders, like so: root\[folder with song title]\song title.m4a. In total 203 folders/songs.
What I noticed is that it messed up the playback order a bit, but it did seem to play all of them. Alphabetically, it skipped the first 30 or so, but then those skipped songs eventually showed up somewhere in the middle."

You get this because you didn't sort songs. You have to sort them cause It is used fat32 file system on usb pen.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-04-19 18:08:38
"So if I didn't check in the middle I might think that they were gone and that is only shows around 170 folders total, which is close to around 180 you mentioned.
Is this how it works for you too, or are they completely missing and you can't find them anywhere? It is a bit cumbersome to navigate the folders with those buttons, so I don't blame you if you didn't check."

I've always sorted folders(artists) and therefore subfolders(albums) to get alphabetic order. They lacked last folders(artists) and consequent subfolders(albums): It showed from A to P, and nothing from Q to Z.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-04-19 18:11:36
"If you have a reliable way to reproduce this (or specific tracks/albums that always do this) I can try it."

Here you are three albums to test, with and without tags:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ildT1Tq3H9yWJXV8OQ90A5EhsR89Pq21/view
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2020-04-20 14:53:14
You get this because you didn't sort songs. You have to sort them cause It is used fat32 file system on usb pen.
Not sure what you mean. They appear sorted alphabetically when I open the USB drive on my PC.

Here you are three albums to test, with and without tags:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ildT1Tq3H9yWJXV8OQ90A5EhsR89Pq21/view
Any specific track that does this? Otherwise it could take me a while.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-04-24 10:34:50
"Not sure what you mean. They appear sorted alphabetically when I open the USB drive on my PC."

On pc they are sorted cause you use ntfs filesystem(windows), hfs+ or apfs(macos) or ext4(linux) that show sorted songs.
The usb pen you use is formatted by fat32 filesystem that doesn't support automatic sort by itself.

"Any specific track that does this? Otherwise it could take me a while."

I don't rembember exact tracks. In any case, are few.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: saratoga on 2020-04-26 05:32:52
You get this because you didn't sort songs. You have to sort them cause It is used fat32 file system on usb pen.
Not sure what you mean. They appear sorted alphabetically when I open the USB drive on my PC.

It sounds like your device is playing the files in the order they're listed in the actual file table.  Almost nothing does this since it is very stupid, but sometimes crappy embedded devices are that stupid.  You can test with this software, which can write files to the file table in alphabetical order:

https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/95721/FAT-32-Sorter

If that changes the order they play, then your device is playing files in file table order.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2020-04-26 18:36:28
That was it, yes.
It seems the file table gets messed up over time, with writes to the drive. A quick format can help as well. (BTW, typing dir in Command Prompt also shows the file table order.)
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-05-07 19:20:59
That was it, yes.
It seems the file table gets messed up over time, with writes to the drive. A quick format can help as well. (BTW, typing dir in Command Prompt also shows the file table order.)
Have you tried google drive files?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2020-05-07 21:06:24
No, sorry. I haven't been driving much lately, so I didn't have a chance to play through them. If you know which specific files are problematic it would be faster.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-05-09 18:00:28
No, sorry. I haven't been driving much lately, so I didn't have a chance to play through them. If you know which specific files are problematic it would be faster.
Most of tracks are affected. Try with tags ones.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-05-29 10:10:19
Thanks to the help of Brand I can say 3:10 gaps and tracks suddenly stop bug seem to be fixed.
Now, It remains not all folders recognized bug. Can anyone try?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2020-05-30 17:54:17
Yeah, I've played through 2 out of 3 of your test folders and didn't notice any skips or stops.

I also got around to trying the folders thing and there does seem to be a limit. In my case it recognized 310 (309 ignoring the top one) out of 1080 total folders.
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Rush82 on 2020-06-03 14:22:31
Yeah, I've played through 2 out of 3 of your test folders and didn't notice any skips or stops.

I also got around to trying the folders thing and there does seem to be a limit. In my case it recognized 310 (309 ignoring the top one) out of 1080 total folders.

Thanks a lot for the feedback.
We are close to the target. Why don't you warn Kenwood again?
Title: Re: Playback troubles(m4a format) on Kenwood car radio(kdc-bt530u)
Post by: Brand on 2020-06-10 14:01:19
I contacted Kenwood again and they pointed me to this page, which lists some specs/limitations, for example the 999 folders limit:
https://www.kenwood.com/cs/ce/audiofile/index.php?model=KMM-BT304&lang=english (https://www.kenwood.com/cs/ce/audiofile/index.php?model=KMM-BT304&lang=english)

So I tried with a different set of files, with around 600 folders and it still didn't show them all. But this time it topped at 347. So the 310 from before is not a hard limit and something else is going on.

Anyway, I don't think I'll bother with this anymore. It's not something that affects my use case and it's just a mild curiosity at this point.
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