HydrogenAudio

CD-R and Audio Hardware => CD Hardware/Software => Topic started by: jayess on 2012-09-04 05:44:37

Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-04 05:44:37
CD's!!!!!!!!!! Obviously the way to go.


You're absolutely correct, CD's are the way to go, but they aren't the perfect solution either. Most of my collection was bought used and I'm always shopping for new (used) stuff, but it's crazy to see how bad CD's deteriorate. That old stuff from the 80's and 90's, especially the discs with the chrome tops, hold them up to a light source and it's crazy to see how many of them have pinholes, which means there's no longer any music in that hole. And I'm talking about discs that in many cases don't have a scratch on them.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-04 06:13:10
There was never any "music" in the spot where the pinhole is to begin with. The data is distributed.

There's a post somewhere on the forum about how large a hole can theoretically be before error-free data can no longer be recovered.

Feel free to google CIRC if you feel so inclined.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-04 13:23:30
There was never any "music" in the spot where the pinhole is to begin with. The data is distributed.

There's a post somewhere on the forum about how large a hole can theoretically be before error-free data can no longer be recovered.

Feel free to google CIRC if you feel so inclined.


Really?

Then why do these "pinhole" discs always fail Accuraterip or otherwise get poor rip scores?

The clue is when they start doing frames during ripping.

Furthermore, until I created a database that I could access when shopping I made the mistake of buying more than one copy of several discs (at least 25 or so) mistakenly, not realizing I already had it. That happens if you try to keep 2,000 titles or so in your head. And the results of getting to test two identical discs, one with pinholes and one without, is the pinholes are in fact degradation.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: Porcus on 2012-09-04 13:30:29
Then why do these "pinhole" discs always fail Accuraterip or otherwise get poor rip scores?


Because a CD with its reflective layer damaged, seldom is ruined just at a single tiny spot and nowhere else, and if so should be, then most of us would just be happy about the AR match rather than looking for pinholes?
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-04 13:48:38
Then why do these "pinhole" discs always fail Accuraterip or otherwise get poor rip scores?


Because a CD with its reflective layer damaged, seldom is ruined just at a single tiny spot and nowhere else, and if so should be, then most of us would just be happy about the AR match rather than looking for pinholes?


As I understand it, a CD is made up of minutes, seconds, and frames, with 75 frames being equal to one second of music. And CD players treat errors (pinholes, scratches that don't cause skips etc.) as silence, so by just putting a pinhole disc in a player, you're not going to hear the errors. On the other hand, with Accuraterip looking for every single CRC, then pinholes start becoming quite obvious from my experience.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2012-09-04 14:35:32
Feel free to google CIRC if you feel so inclined.
He might get on better googling CRC?

You're unlikely to get just one pinhole, and it's unlikely that every actual gap is easily visible - so by the time you can see pinholes in your CDs, it's possible there are uncorrectable read errors too (due to clusters of gaps that the error correction can't fix).

That said, my first CD, manufactured by PDO in 1988 (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/bronzed.asp) is visibly wrecked - yet all but one track passes AccurateRip (track 5 out of 10, interestingly - even though the damage is mostly starting at the edge and progressing inwards).

Cheers,
David.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-04 15:45:24
He might get on better googling CRC?

If he could be bothered to do even that much.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-04 16:10:31
He might get on better googling CRC?

If he could be bothered to do even that much.


I did run some Google searches Greynol and they produced nothing more than "opinions."

I have this question for you: I give you two identical CD's of which you can keep one for your music collection, one has pinholes and one doesn't, which one would you keep (or be willing to pay for)?

Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-04 16:28:09
I have this question for you: I give you two identical CD's of which you can keep one for your music collection, one has pinholes and one doesn't, which one would you keep (or be willing to pay for)?

Your question is completely irrelevant to the fact that you still don't have the faintest idea how data is organized on a CD.

I'd like to think the article in wikipedia would have been a result.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-04 16:29:51
I have this question for you: I give you two identical CD's of which you can keep one for your music collection, one has pinholes and one doesn't, which one would you keep (or be willing to pay for)?

Your question is completely irrelevant to the point that you still don't have the faintest idea how data is organized on a CD.

I'd like to think the article in wikipedia would have been a result.


About those CRC's...

"Hold the CD up to a light. If you can see light through scratches or pinholes in the label, you have label-side scratches.

This damage cannot be repaired. The reflective layer has been removed. No optical pickup, no matter how good it is, can ever read data without a reflective layer present.
"

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs)
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-04 16:31:51
CIRC

I didn't know Logitech was in charge of wikipedia.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-04 16:38:06
CIRC

I didn't know Logitech was in charge of wikipedia.



There was never any "music" in the spot where the pinhole is to begin with. The data is distributed.


Which is it?
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-04 16:39:10
There is no contradiction in describing Cross-Interleaved Reed-Solomon Coding as data being distributed. There is no contradiction in saying music does not exist at a fixed point either.

At this point I don't care what you choose to do with this information, just leave it out of this discussion.  I suggested you research the concept on your own time in order to keep the discussion from getting bogged down with debate, especially one fueled with anecdotes. Yet we got this anyway.


My take on the actual topic at hand: Aren't itunes purchases DRM-free?  Regardless, buyer be aware!
(EDIT: No longer relevant due to thread split)
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: 2Bdecided on 2012-09-04 19:25:00
About those CRC's...

"Hold the CD up to a light. If you can see light through scratches or pinholes in the label, you have label-side scratches.

This damage cannot be repaired. The reflective layer has been removed. No optical pickup, no matter how good it is, can ever read data without a reflective layer present.
"

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs)
That's explaining that you can't polish those label-side scratches away (as opposed to read-side scratches, that can often be polished away). It's not saying whether the error-corrected data will be recoverable or not. (though presumably you wouldn't get the polish out unless there were read errors).

As greynol says, you really need to understand how CDs work. They are designed so that a single reasonably narrow radial scratch is perfectly recoverable. It does not change the output audio data at all. It is undetectable on the digital output of a CD player.

Cheers,
David.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-04 20:22:55
About those CRC's...

"Hold the CD up to a light. If you can see light through scratches or pinholes in the label, you have label-side scratches.

This damage cannot be repaired. The reflective layer has been removed. No optical pickup, no matter how good it is, can ever read data without a reflective layer present.
"

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs)
That's explaining that you can't polish those label-side scratches away (as opposed to read-side scratches, that can often be polished away). It's not saying whether the error-corrected data will be recoverable or not. (though presumably you wouldn't get the polish out unless there were read errors).

As greynol says, you really need to understand how CDs work. They are designed so that a single reasonably narrow radial scratch is perfectly recoverable. It does not change the output audio data at all. It is undetectable on the digital output of a CD player.

Cheers,
David.


We're not discussing it in the context of playing the music, we're discussing it in the context of ripping the music. How is error correction going to replace something that isn't there? Sure, it can create silence in place of the error and blend it into the track, but again where is the data that was in what is now a pinhole?
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: [JAZ] on 2012-09-04 21:53:16
We're not discussing it in the context of playing the music, we're discussing it in the context of ripping the music. How is error correction going to replace something that isn't there? Sure, it can create silence in place of the error and blend it into the track, but again where is the data that was in what is now a pinhole?


You really should read the information you're told to read.

For each 8 bits stored in a CD, there is 14 pits/valleys, and this data is not stored in a strictly sequential way.

No one is saying that data can be recovered in every case. What is being said is that the CD layer (i.e. the physical data on a CD) was designed from the begining to be fault tolerant.
Later on, with CD-Data, this was improved and added still more data recovery tools (Which is the reason why an 80 minutes CD stores only 740MB while 80 min * 60min/sec * 176.4KB/s =  807.5MB)
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: db1989 on 2012-09-05 00:09:31
Split as a great example of why ToS5 exists, I think.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-05 02:30:01
For each 8 bits stored in a CD, there is 14 pits/valleys, and this data is not stored in a strictly sequential way.

That's EFM, not CIRC. There is no redundancy for error correction there, rather it is there to prevent pit-land combinations that may be confused with other pit-land combinations. CIRC is where there are two levels of redundancy, the second of which, IIRC is distributed.  Again(!) this distribution is done to protect against radial scratches and, yes(!) those pesky pin-holes.

When the data can't be recovered, linear interpolation is done (different from silence, despite what armchair experts will tell you).  When interpolation can't be done then silence is substituted until data can be acquired again.

Do with this as you will.


Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: Glenn Gundlach on 2012-09-05 04:46:06
About those CRC's...

"Hold the CD up to a light. If you can see light through scratches or pinholes in the label, you have label-side scratches.

This damage cannot be repaired. The reflective layer has been removed. No optical pickup, no matter how good it is, can ever read data without a reflective layer present.
"

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs)


You know you're being kind of snotty. Greynol is trying to get you to find out how the data is arranged on a CD. You seem to think it's like an LP so a hole is a gap in the data. It is but unlike the LP, there is redundancy built in. I seem to recall in the early days one of the tests was how big a hole could be drilled in a CD before you lost data and it was around 1/8 of an inch - a lot bigger than your pinholes. Would I be willing to buy a disc with visible pinholes? It wouldn't bother me at all.

If you bother to look up and understand how a CD works, you'll find it was done by pretty smart people for use by pretty careless people. The discs are quite tolerant of abuse on the bottom side (where it's played from ) and the label side is more fragile though I've only wrecked one disc in 29 years. BTW ALL the discs I bought in the '80s still play fine. The oldest is from April '83.


Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-08 23:34:34
About those CRC's...

"Hold the CD up to a light. If you can see light through scratches or pinholes in the label, you have label-side scratches.

This damage cannot be repaired. The reflective layer has been removed. No optical pickup, no matter how good it is, can ever read data without a reflective layer present.
"

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Repairing_damaged_CDs)


You know you're being kind of snotty. Greynol is trying to get you to find out how the data is arranged on a CD. You seem to think it's like an LP so a hole is a gap in the data. It is but unlike the LP, there is redundancy built in. I seem to recall in the early days one of the tests was how big a hole could be drilled in a CD before you lost data and it was around 1/8 of an inch - a lot bigger than your pinholes. Would I be willing to buy a disc with visible pinholes? It wouldn't bother me at all.

If you bother to look up and understand how a CD works, you'll find it was done by pretty smart people for use by pretty careless people. The discs are quite tolerant of abuse on the bottom side (where it's played from ) and the label side is more fragile though I've only wrecked one disc in 29 years. BTW ALL the discs I bought in the '80s still play fine. The oldest is from April '83.




And you're being rather dense, along with some others. As I said, the discs with pinholes can't pass muster when it comes to ripping them with Accuraterip verification. You guys can sing and dance all day about "playing the discs," but again, that's not the issue. The issue is ripping music with no loss of data due to pinholes.

Let's see you back up your claim. Rip a music CD, record the Accuraterip results, then drill a 1/8" hole, or better yet multiple holes, in it and record the results again. Post the whole thing in a Youtube video. That'll get my attention and prove you guys are doing more than blowing air into a paper bag.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-09 00:04:29
If you go back to your original post you will see that I addressed your erroneous assumption about how data is laid out on a CD.

Instead of being gracious about the correction, you've decided to play a game of bait and switch.

It isn't us who are looking dense in this discussion, just as sure as you aren't able to rip some of your discs.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-09 01:32:00
You guys can sing and dance all day about "playing the discs," but again, that's not the issue. The issue is ripping music with no loss of data due to pinholes.

We made no distinction between ripping and playing because there is no distinction.  The data doesn't magically rearrange itself because the disc was put into a cd-rom drive.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: Tahnru on 2012-09-09 03:05:39
That would depend on if you were using the ASIO, Wasabi, or Direct Sound driver.


None of these technologies has anything to do with RAID.

Let's be honest here, what are you looking for?  Are you avoiding doing research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-interleaved_Reed%E2%80%93Solomon_coding) because of pride?  Are you just lazy and can't be bothered to understand the questions you're asking?

There is no real discussion happening here.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: EagleScout1998 on 2012-09-09 03:06:15
Not that it would add anything important to the debate, but I have, in the past, accurately ripped CDs with pinholes. The fact that they are present doesn't automatically render the disc a coaster.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 03:14:07
Not that it would add anything important to the debate, but I have, in the past, accurately ripped CDs with pinholes. The fact that they are present doesn't automatically render the disc a coaster.


My own personal experience: since I've started doing the so-called light test inspection for holes instead of just looking for scratches, my failure rate on buying used discs has went to zero. And I buy a lot of them; probably at least 50 per month.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-09 03:19:52
Yawn.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=407445 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=46060&view=findpost&p=407445)

PS: If you can't recover error-free data from a disc, you might consider blaming your drive instead of pretending to know how data is written on a disc.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 03:24:25
Yawn.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=407445 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=46060&view=findpost&p=407445)

PS: If you can't recover error-free data from a disc, you might consider blaming your drive instead of pretending to know how data is written on a disc.


"Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for CIRC) in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings."

Snore...
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-09 03:26:14
Common sense would suggest you remove the unnecessary closed parenthesis...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIRC)

See that that wasn't right and then try some disambiguation...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIRC_%28disambiguation%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIRC_%28disambiguation%29)

...and then choose the one that you've been told.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-interle...-Solomon_coding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-interleaved_Reed-Solomon_coding)

Of course it's much easier to pretend that there isn't some article out there that actually addresses the point you're afraid to concede.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 03:27:27
Yawn.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=407445 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=46060&view=findpost&p=407445)

PS: If you can't recover error-free data from a disc, you might consider blaming your drive instead of pretending to know how data is written on a disc.


All well and good, but I'm still waiting to see a video of someone drilling holes in a disc and then ripping the data.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: mjb2006 on 2012-09-09 06:52:50
jayess, I will try to explain, although you really could just read about CIRC elsewhere, as has been suggested multiple times.

The audio samples on the CD aren't written "raw" and sequentially into the pits and lands. If they were, then you'd be right to assume any unreadable spot, be it due to a pinhole or not, would likely be an unrecoverable loss. But in reality, before being turned into pits and lands, the samples are interleaved with other info (timecode, secondary data streams, sync data), so it's not even guaranteed that every pinhole is necessarily "on a sample".

On top of that, and more importantly, all this data is further subjected to CIRC coding, which bloats the data slightly to add some checksum-like codes (to oversimplify a little), and shuffles everything kind of like a deck of cards. The bits for a given sample are thus spread out over a wide area; they're not concentrated in a single spot. The result is that there can be random, occasional tiny errors, as well as completely unreadable bursts of pits and lands, even a straight-up gap of over 2 millimeters, and yet the original info encoded therein can be fully recovered through some virtual sudoku, 100% accurately.

Sure, larger or more frequent holes may exceed the error correction capability of CIRC and result in some undecodable samples. But usually, a significant scratch won't affect a continuous span of samples; rather, it will affect single samples spaced somewhat far apart. In a real CD player, these samples can usually be easily interpolated (e.g. as being halfway between adjacent, undamaged samples) and the result may not be 100% correct, but will be audibly indistinguishable from error-free data. Only when samples can't be interpolated, in the most severe cases, do you get audible glitches during playback. In a CD drive, during DAE (ripping), interpolation isn't normally attempted, so it's quite possible for a lightly damaged disc to play just fine but not rip error-free. "Secure" ripping software can compensate for this, to a degree, with various re-reading strategies.

There's more to know, but hopefully this helps you understand why you shouldn't consider pinholes to be a major threat to the integrity of the music encoded on the disc.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: [JAZ] on 2012-09-09 12:26:17
Yup. Not to mention the user-error in mentioning Wasabi (Winamp 3/5 API for skins and new plugins) versus WASAPI (Audio API in Windows Vista/7/8).



He insists on mentioning an extreme case (which can happen, I had an old Data CD damaged by a young nephew of mine, when he tried to "draw" with a pen on the label side and made several lines where one could see through).
"pin holes visible when looking to a light" compared to this is minimal.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 13:55:50
jayess, I will try to explain, although you really could just read about CIRC elsewhere, as has been suggested multiple times.

The audio samples on the CD aren't written "raw" and sequentially into the pits and lands. If they were, then you'd be right to assume any unreadable spot, be it due to a pinhole or not, would likely be an unrecoverable loss. But in reality, before being turned into pits and lands, the samples are interleaved with other info (timecode, secondary data streams, sync data), so it's not even guaranteed that every pinhole is necessarily "on a sample".

On top of that, and more importantly, all this data is further subjected to CIRC coding, which bloats the data slightly to add some checksum-like codes (to oversimplify a little), and shuffles everything kind of like a deck of cards. The bits for a given sample are thus spread out over a wide area; they're not concentrated in a single spot. The result is that there can be random, occasional tiny errors, as well as completely unreadable bursts of pits and lands, even a straight-up gap of over 2 millimeters, and yet the original info encoded therein can be fully recovered through some virtual sudoku, 100% accurately.

Sure, larger or more frequent holes may exceed the error correction capability of CIRC and result in some undecodable samples. But usually, a significant scratch won't affect a continuous span of samples; rather, it will affect single samples spaced somewhat far apart. In a real CD player, these samples can usually be easily interpolated (e.g. as being halfway between adjacent, undamaged samples) and the result may not be 100% correct, but will be audibly indistinguishable from error-free data. Only when samples can't be interpolated, in the most severe cases, do you get audible glitches during playback. In a CD drive, during DAE (ripping), interpolation isn't normally attempted, so it's quite possible for a lightly damaged disc to play just fine but not rip error-free. "Secure" ripping software can compensate for this, to a degree, with various re-reading strategies.

There's more to know, but hopefully this helps you understand why you shouldn't consider pinholes to be a major threat to the integrity of the music encoded on the disc.


so it's quite possible for a lightly damaged disc to play just fine but not rip error-free.

That's what I've been saying all along and it seems to keep drawing disagreement for some reason. If you don't buy used discs with scratches or pinholes, there is no problem ripping them.

There is a couple of good vids on CD error correction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHRR-8Q2DHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHRR-8Q2DHE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHRR-8Q2DHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHRR-8Q2DHE)

I still standby my point that while a player can correct (quiet) these errors during playback of music, it frequently can't correct the data to make perfect rips that match Accuraterip.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: Porcus on 2012-09-09 14:07:06
so it's quite possible for a lightly damaged disc to play just fine but not rip error-free.


It is also quite possible for a damaged disc – so damaged that quite a few physical pits are completely destroyed – to not only play just fine, but to rip error free, to precisely the same bitstream as a pristine copy of the same disc.


I still standby my point that while a player can correct (quiet) these errors during playback of music, it frequently can't correct the data to make perfect rips that match Accuraterip.


You still seem to think that “correct” = “quiet”? It isn't.
– Interpolating an error is done to make it less annoying, less audible, or at best, less likely to be audible. 
– Correcting an error means that bit(s) on the CD are wrong, yet the rip is perfect in the sense that it would match any comparison of the resulting files with ones read from a pristine disc. 


This is the difference between “you are wrong, so STFU”, and “you are wrong, here's the fix, now you are right”. A CD has information to do the latter, but only to a certain extent. Kinda like this thread, I'd say.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 15:17:33
so it's quite possible for a lightly damaged disc to play just fine but not rip error-free.


It is also quite possible for a damaged disc – so damaged that quite a few physical pits are completely destroyed – to not only play just fine, but to rip error free, to precisely the same bitstream as a pristine copy of the same disc.


I still standby my point that while a player can correct (quiet) these errors during playback of music, it frequently can't correct the data to make perfect rips that match Accuraterip.


You still seem to think that “correct” = “quiet”? It isn't.
– Interpolating an error is done to make it less annoying, less audible, or at best, less likely to be audible. 
– Correcting an error means that bit(s) on the CD are wrong, yet the rip is perfect in the sense that it would match any comparison of the resulting files with ones read from a pristine disc. 


This is the difference between “you are wrong, so STFU”, and “you are wrong, here's the fix, now you are right”. A CD has information to do the latter, but only to a certain extent. Kinda like this thread, I'd say.


I'm going to post some tests I'm doing right now when I finish in a new thread, so the pictures and data isn't buried from people seeing it. But basically, I put two identical copes of an old, chrome top, Elton John CD on a scanner to show the holes, and then I'm going to rip both copies with three different drives and post the results and pictures.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: [JAZ] on 2012-09-09 17:09:54
As for your images and results posted in here : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=96900 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=96900)

1) Why do, both discs, have holes in almost the same positions? (Concretely, top part. Is that a consequence of the scanner not being clean?)
2) Do you realize that they are different pressings? (At least, different discs).
3) With two of the drives, you get good AR results with CD1 but not with CD2, and the third drive reports failure with both discs.

It would be interesting to find out what is the difference. Take the same ripped track from each CD and verify if the content is different as a whole, or just different in some places. (I'm not sure what to recommend for this, HEX editor with fc /b , audio editor and invert signal... Both have its pros and cons)

If it is really on very concrete parts of the track, then we could determine it's a rip failure. Else, it's obviously not a failure in ripping but something else.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: mjb2006 on 2012-09-09 17:34:34
OK, but if a particular disc/drive/ripper/rip-option combo has trouble with a disc that has only pinholes (no other dust or scratches), how do you know it was the pinholes? What makes a disc unreadable isn't necessarily visible to the eye, and isn't even necessarily indicative of a fault on the disc; different drives handle different types of defects better than others.

I have a CD here (made by Discovery Systems) that has no pinholes or scratches; it looks absolutely pristine, but has some kind of manufacturing defect (I can only assume) which make most of its tracks unreadable in any drive or player. If it somehow acquires some pinholes down the line, I'd obviously be mistaken if I attributed the disc's problems to them.

And as has been stated, pinhole-laden discs sometimes do rip without error. I have one like this, myself. So even without understanding the details of the CDDA format and its error-correction capabilities, it's clearly a mistake to assume that pinholes guarantee a disc contains "holes in the music" or that it won't rip and play 100% error-free.

If you have a choice between getting a disc with pinholes and getting one without, then surely, why take the risk with the pinholes? Nobody is saying otherwise. We're just saying you're wrong to assume pinholes guarantee problems.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 17:34:51

As for your images and results posted in here : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=96900 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=96900)

1) Why do, both discs, have holes in almost the same positions? (Concretely, top part. Is that a consequence of the scanner not being clean?)
2) Do you realize that they are different pressings? (At least, different discs).
3) With two of the drives, you get good AR results with CD1 but not with CD2, and the third drive reports failure with both discs.

It would be interesting to find out what is the difference. Take the same ripped track from each CD and verify if the content is different as a whole, or just different in some places. (I'm not sure what to recommend for this, HEX editor with fc /b , audio editor and invert signal... Both have its pros and cons)

If it is really on very concrete parts of the track, then we could determine it's a rip failure. Else, it's obviously not a failure in ripping but something else.


I did clean the scanner with a damp LCD cloth and then a paint brush.

Both discs say they are "MCAD 6321"

But they do report a difference in the number along the opening:

MCAD-6321-5T by JVC for disc 1

MCAD-6321 A60524JB MFG by UNI on disc 2

I saved each rip folder with the disc number and drive; I'll play around with some track comparisons in Foobar.

An ugly question is if these discs are actually different and DBPoweramp can't differentiate that, then the Accuraterip numbers are what? Worthless?
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 17:38:21
OK, but if a particular disc/drive/ripper/rip-option combo has trouble with a disc that has only pinholes (no other dust or scratches), how do you know it was the pinholes? What makes a disc unreadable isn't necessarily visible to the eye, and isn't even necessarily indicative of a fault on the disc; different drives handle different types of defects better than others.

I have a CD here (made by Discovery Systems) that has no pinholes or scratches; it looks absolutely pristine, but has some kind of manufacturing defect (I can only assume) which make most of its tracks unreadable in any drive or player. If it somehow acquires some pinholes down the line, I'd obviously be mistaken if I attributed the disc's problems to them.

And as has been stated, pinhole-laden discs sometimes do rip without error. I have one like this, myself. So even without understanding the details of the CDDA format and its error-correction capabilities, it's clearly a mistake to assume that pinholes guarantee a disc contains "holes in the music" or that it won't rip and play 100% error-free.

If you have a choice between getting a disc with pinholes and getting one without, then surely, why take the risk with the pinholes? Nobody is saying otherwise. We're just saying you're wrong to assume pinholes guarantee problems.


A fair question at this point in regards to ripping accurately and without error is "to what degree?"

A disc with pinholes could give you a confidence of 5, but a truly perfect one would probably be much higher.

Both of these discs obviously have holes, but one is able to achieve a score of 4 and the other is a 1.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: EagleScout1998 on 2012-09-09 17:55:59
Quote
A disc with pinholes could give you a confidence of 5, but a truly perfect one would probably be much higher.


That's not how confidence works. The confidence of 5 means that 5 other people ripped the exact same CD (same pressing) and got the exact same result.

Moreover, the new version of AccurateRip does recognize different pressings, as evidenced by your ripping log.

Quote
Track 1: Ripped LBA 37 to 24940 (5:32) in 1:21. Filename: F:\Elton John\Sleeping with the Past\01 Elton John - Durban Deep.wav
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 4) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 0E9887A1 AccurateRip CRC: C8D19798 (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-0012b4fa-00948737-810b3c0a-1]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 4 [CRCv2 c8d19798]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 19 [CRCv1 9c42d4c7]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 22 [CRCv1 ff5f40ca], Using Pressing Offset -278
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 12 [CRCv1 7c6c2fa3], Using Pressing Offset -685
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 18:03:11
Quote
A disc with pinholes could give you a confidence of 5, but a truly perfect one would probably be much higher.


That's not how confidence works. The confidence of 5 means that 5 other people ripped the exact same CD (same pressing) and got the exact same result.

Moreover, the new version of AccurateRip does recognize different pressings, as evidenced by your ripping log.

Quote
Track 1: Ripped LBA 37 to 24940 (5:32) in 1:21. Filename: F:\Elton John\Sleeping with the Past\01 Elton John - Durban Deep.wav
AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 4) [Pass 1]
CRC32: 0E9887A1 AccurateRip CRC: C8D19798 (CRCv2) [DiscID: 010-0012b4fa-00948737-810b3c0a-1]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 4 [CRCv2 c8d19798]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 19 [CRCv1 9c42d4c7]
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 22 [CRCv1 ff5f40ca], Using Pressing Offset -278
AccurateRip Verified Confidence 12 [CRCv1 7c6c2fa3], Using Pressing Offset -685



Ok, so what about when it says 5 other people got a 5, but 12 others didn't?

Again, if we have no way of knowing who had what pressing as we are seeing, what good is all this?

I generally make a decision to keep a disc that has the best numbers or seek a replacement for discs that have bad numbers.

And why isn't the "error correction" fixing all these bad rips?

And how do I know about all these different pressings and which are which without having all these different ones?

This stuff is a headache.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: EagleScout1998 on 2012-09-09 18:30:32
I sense another thread split.....

Confidence numbers have nothing to do with the physical condition of the disc. A pristine disc can have the same confidence number as one with scratches. If you are using confidence numbers to judge which discs to keep and which to replace, then STOP! You are throwing your money away.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-09 18:40:58
I know it's cruel but this has got to be the funniest epic FAIL I've seen in a long time!
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 18:47:22
I know it's cruel but this has got to be the funniest epic FAIL I've seen in a long time!


Should we drill that hole now?
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-09 18:53:47
Go right ahead.

Is it time to end this silly troll-fest (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=96903) yet?
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 18:56:54
Go right ahead.

Is it time to end this silly troll-fest yet?


Well so far in our discussions you've resorted to name calling and now you're on the "troll fest" trip.

I think this stuff is pretty educational for people that are not as versed as some of the pros in here to show them the nuances of ripping music.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-09 19:03:31
The education never had to go farther than the very first reply to your post.

Regarding my insensitive, gross and brutal name calling, I'll let the readers judge for themselves. I gave up on appealing to your honesty and common sense several posts ago.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-09 19:20:37
The education never had to go farther than the very first reply to your post.

Regarding my insensitive, gross and brutal name calling, I'll let the readers judge for themselves. I gave up on appealing to your honesty and common sense several posts ago.


Here's one for the road Greynol, not a scratch on this Jimmy Buffett CD...and I can rip it, but it sure ain't accurate! Or so it says.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/86975222@N06/.../in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/86975222@N06/7964315194/in/photostream)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/86975222@N06/.../in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/86975222@N06/7964366366/in/photostream)

Enjoy your Sunday!
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-10 00:36:39
I sense another thread split.....

Confidence numbers have nothing to do with the physical condition of the disc. A pristine disc can have the same confidence number as one with scratches. If you are using confidence numbers to judge which discs to keep and which to replace, then STOP! You are throwing your money away.

I'm not sure I'm following your logic. If a disc scores basically a zero because it fails to match any other discs, then it basically has a quality problem, does it not? And scratches do not necessarily mean the disc cannot be accurately read, especially if they run from the inside out, versus following the track data path.

Wasting money isn't really an issue. I buy most of my CD's used and probably average $1 per disc, so I'm more concerned about having a good, accurate disc more than anything else. Even if you have to buy the same disc more than once to get a good one at $1 apiece, it's still a bargain over the new price. Of course in extreme cases on difficult to find, expensive discs, you can use select tracks off of each that had high rip scores to make a good copy.

Anyway, check out this wild ride on this good-looking disc.

Code: [Select]
dBpoweramp Release 14.2 Digital Audio Extraction Log from Sunday, September 09, 2012 02:50 PM

Drive & Settings
----------------

Ripping with drive 'E:  [HP      - DVD Writer 560r ]',  Drive offset: 6,  Overread Lead-in/out: No
AccurateRip: Active,  Using C2: No,  Cache: 1024 KB,  FUA Cache Invalidate: No
Pass 1 Drive Speed: 10,  Pass 2 Drive Speed: 10
Bad Sector Re-rip::  Drive Speed: 10,  Maximum Re-reads: 34

Encoder: Wave -compression="PCM"

Extraction Log
--------------

Track 1:  Ripped LBA 37 to 14897 (3:18) in 0:43. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\01 Jimmy Buffett - Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 3)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 8BFBA961    AccurateRip CRC: 89C22EA2 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-1]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 3 [CRCv2 89c22ea2]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 a7fee69]

Track 2:  Ripped LBA 14897 to 32312 (3:52) in 0:46. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\02 Jimmy Buffett - Wonder Why We Ever Go Home.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 07C3F084    AccurateRip CRC: F81C40E1 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-2]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 f81c40e1]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 faf9d8a4]

Track 3:  Ripped LBA 32312 to 55807 (5:13) in 0:57. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\03 Jimmy Buffett - Banana Republics.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 937C9D6C    AccurateRip CRC: 6BAAD552 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-3]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 6baad552]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 a0138975]

Track 4:  Ripped LBA 55807 to 76660 (4:38) in 0:46. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\04 Jimmy Buffett - Tampico Trauma.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: A89641CF    AccurateRip CRC: D2B3DE70 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-4]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 d2b3de70]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 e9b66725]

Track 5:  Ripped LBA 76660 to 94352 (3:55) in 0:37. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\05 Jimmy Buffett - Lovely Cruise.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 25505A1C    AccurateRip CRC: D01BC61C (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-5]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 d01bc61c]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 2d63dff6]

Track 6:  Ripped LBA 94352 to 113170 (4:10) in 0:37. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\06 Jimmy Buffett - Margaritaville.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 24379F6B    AccurateRip CRC: EF81C8B0 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-6]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 ef81c8b0]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 d3f61b30]

Track 7:  Ripped LBA 113170 to 129930 (3:43) in 0:31. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\07 Jimmy Buffett - Miss You So Badly.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: AB8E3C19    AccurateRip CRC: 6BC446F3 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-7]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 6bc446f3]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 99ec0891]

Track 8:  Ripped LBA 129930 to 155430 (5:40) in 0:45. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\08 Jimmy Buffett - Biloxi.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 67E464DF    AccurateRip CRC: F5890647 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-8]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 f5890647]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 6c4db65a]

Track 9:  Ripped LBA 155430 to 170365 (3:19) in 0:25. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\09 Jimmy Buffett - Landfall.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 7D6C722D    AccurateRip CRC: 742F997C (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-9]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 742f997c]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 e117176e]

Track 10:  Ripped LBA 170365 to 189137 (4:10) in 0:31. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\10 Jimmy Buffett - Woman Goin' Crazy on Caroline Street.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 8)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 372A7168    AccurateRip CRC: 610BB901    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-10]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 610bb901]

Track 11:  Ripped LBA 189137 to 200805 (2:35) in 0:18. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\11 Jimmy Buffett - My Head Hurts, My Feet Stink and I Don't Love Jesus.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 8)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: ED2D2C18    AccurateRip CRC: 02B38C7F    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-11]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 2b38c7f]

Track 12:  Ripped LBA 200805 to 215687 (3:18) in 0:23. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\12 Jimmy Buffett - The Captain and the Kid.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 8)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 65ADC0F2    AccurateRip CRC: 4429587D    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-12]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 4429587d]

Track 13:  Ripped LBA 215687 to 231547 (3:31) in 0:24. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\13 Jimmy Buffett - Big Rig.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 8)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 85C32B43    AccurateRip CRC: B3D937A5    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-13]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 b3d937a5]

Track 14:  Ripped LBA 231547 to 243777 (2:43) in 0:18. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\14 Jimmy Buffett - Defying Gravity.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 06F36C88    AccurateRip CRC: 1C6CCCA7 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-14]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 1c6ccca7]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 23d9e82c]

Track 15:  Ripped LBA 243777 to 260255 (3:39) in 0:24. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\15 Jimmy Buffett - Havana Daydreamin'.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 6ADDA8A5    AccurateRip CRC: 6584A7CD (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-15]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 6584a7cd]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 7a6cd144]

Track 16:  Ripped LBA 260255 to 272735 (2:46) in 0:17. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\16 Jimmy Buffett - Cliches.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 8)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 653D5B1C    AccurateRip CRC: 819C5210    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-16]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 819c5210]

Track 17:  Ripped LBA 272735 to 288705 (3:32) in 0:22. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\17 Jimmy Buffett - Something So Feminine About a Mandolin.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: A152B2C7    AccurateRip CRC: 89C471E0 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-17]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 89c471e0]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 808ae8d8]

Track 18:  Ripped LBA 288705 to 306500 (3:57) in 0:24. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\18 Jimmy Buffett - Kick It in Second Wind.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 8)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: 4222328D    AccurateRip CRC: C0FA48CB    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-18]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 c0fa48cb]

Track 19:  Ripped LBA 306500 to 320642 (3:08) in 0:19. Filename: F:\Jimmy Buffett\Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes-Havana Daydreamin'\19 Jimmy Buffett - This Hotel Room.wav
  AccurateRip: Accurate (confidence 2)    [Pass 1]
  CRC32: E5AEFFBD    AccurateRip CRC: AB7DB4B3 (CRCv2)    [DiscID: 019-003376ce-02c7f7f5-0510b313-19]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 2 [CRCv2 ab7db4b3]
  AccurateRip Verified Confidence 8 [CRCv1 15aa726]

--------------

19 Tracks Ripped Accurately
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: EagleScout1998 on 2012-09-10 00:48:35
Quote
If a disc scores basically a zero because it fails to match any other discs, then it basically has a quality problem, does it not?


Once again, the confidence numbers have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the physical condition of the CD. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nadda. Zero.

The confidence number are not "rip scores". They are specific to AccurateRip. It tells you that "x" number of people ripped the exact same CD and got the exact same result. That's it. A confidence number of 5 is every bit as reliable as a confidence number of 200.

If the disc does not have an AccurateRip match, it could mean that the disc has not yet been submitted to the AccurateRip database. If that's the case, then what you want is a Secure rip (indicated by a green check mark).
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-10 06:26:37
A confidence of 1 is just as reliable as a confidence of 200 provided that it wasn't you own previous submission.

If it was your submission than it is no less reliable an indicator than a successfully secure rip.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: Porcus on 2012-09-10 09:22:03
The poster states that the CDs are bought 2nd hand, and then there could now and then show up a false positive “1”, for the obvious reason. I would certainly be suspicious over a used CD with AR matches of twenty except at one track. (BTDT ... and here I'd say that dBpoweramp is a bit too careless about not invoking secure mode, but that is another discussion.)

I've also seen a CD – Pink Floyd: “Pulse”, where The Great Gig In The Sky (disc #2 track #5) had about half the AR confidence as the other tracks – 80-ish vs 160-ish, IIRC. I can only guess that this indicates a manufactoring error, and I can only guess that it would be hard if not impossible to tell from the CD alone (without an authoritative data source) what is most likely “the right” bit stream.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-10 14:22:04
The poster states that the CDs are bought 2nd hand, and then there could now and then show up a false positive “1”, for the obvious reason. I would certainly be suspicious over a used CD with AR matches of twenty except at one track. (BTDT ... and here I'd say that dBpoweramp is a bit too careless about not invoking secure mode, but that is another discussion.)

I've also seen a CD – Pink Floyd: “Pulse”, where The Great Gig In The Sky (disc #2 track #5) had about half the AR confidence as the other tracks – 80-ish vs 160-ish, IIRC. I can only guess that this indicates a manufactoring error, and I can only guess that it would be hard if not impossible to tell from the CD alone (without an authoritative data source) what is most likely “the right” bit stream.


I've come to view Accuraterip as a guide rather than the definitive and final source. I've probably ripped at least 4,000 CD's and I've seen a lot of strange things. In the last couple of weeks I've seen a few discs that were nearly all 2's and then had some numbers like 17 on a track. That made me wonder what happens if people only rip a favorite song, does it get submitted to the database?

Buying used CD's is a great way to go as long as you're careful. I picked up a Tanita Tikaram CD yesterday for $2. The cheapest copy for sale on Amazon was over $11 used. Of the six CD's I bought yesterday everything had faint scratches, but no pinholes, and it all ripped successfully with good numbers.

My proverbial Canary in the Coal Mine scenario is when a secure rip begins to rip frames - that disc is toast for me and gets replaced when the opportunity presents itself.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-10 14:32:16
This is an intersting thing to rip:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Studio-Reco...eppelin+box+set (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Studio-Recordings-Led-Zeppelin/dp/B000002IWP/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1347283605&sr=1-2&keywords=led+zeppelin+box+set)

Common sense would make you think that these discs would differ slightly or drastically from their regular, original albums, but Accuraterip treats each one as just a regular Led Zepplin album and is unable to distinguish this set apart.

I just purchased an Elton John SACD remastered in 2009 or so and Accuraterip stated it was from 1973.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: Porcus on 2012-09-10 14:49:13
As if AccurateRip contains metadata ...
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-10 15:00:32
As if AccurateRip contains metadata ...


Give us your play by play list of what happens (in plain English) from the time you open up one of the Accuraterip rippers and insert a CD and end up with a finished rip.

That's the kind of stuff that helps the newbies learn.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-10 15:09:06
The poster states that the CDs are bought 2nd hand, and then there could now and then show up a false positive “1”, for the obvious reason.

Because errors from pinholes are notoriously consistent, to the point that ripping with different drives gives the same result.  Give me a break!

here I'd say that dBpoweramp is a bit too careless about not invoking secure mode

That doesn't matter since a later match becomes secure by definition.  A later submission that doesn't match kicks the entry with a confidence 1 into limbo, along with itself.  They stay in limbo until a subsequent match comes along.  Your concern is a non-starter.

I would certainly be suspicious over a used CD with AR matches of twenty except at one track.

As was just explained, at least the track won't have a confidence of 1.  Just like you, I would be suspicious to see a track with a confidence that was less than 20 by a significant amount, however.

I generally include (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=ef5e5a120633f945848941696e1162a2&search_in=posts&result_type=posts&highlite=%2B%2Bbug+%2Bdefect) the exception about manufacturing defects and bugs in ripping software, but to suggest these bugs will be exploited by random damage is arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  Let's not lose sight of the topic at hand.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-10 15:10:21
Accuraterip stated it was from 1973.

No it didn't!

Give us your play by play list of what happens (in plain English) from the time you open up one of the Accuraterip rippers and insert a CD and end up with a finished rip.

Start a new topic for that, but before doing so maybe do a little research first.  This is not new territory.

I'll allow discussion of AR numbers as they relate to submissions from discs with pinholes.  Any reply that does not directly address the topic as it is titled will trigger thread closure.  Anyone who wishes to address any of the off-topic discussion that has been generated in this thread is free to open a new topic.
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: jayess on 2012-09-10 15:20:03
Accuraterip stated it was from 1973.

No it didn't!
[/quote]

That gets back to the play by play thing. When you insert a CD, the ripper obviously is using something to identify it.

What?

I've always believed that "what" to be the numbers on the inner ring of the CD.

Is that correct?
Title: Pinholes in the metallic layer of a CD no longer contain music
Post by: greynol on 2012-09-10 15:24:43
Discussion closed.

Anyone who wishes to resume this discussion with material that is on-topic can request that it be reopened via PM.