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Topic: Amp power AVR vs Power amp (Read 28583 times) previous topic - next topic
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Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #25
Speaker impedance is not dependent on signal level.

To your other question, the concern is the amplifier's ability to handle transient peaks. THD measurements are measured using a continuous tone.

Backing up to the beginning, what prompted you to think you need a new power amp?  From reading the discussion I'm under the impression you don't need one.  Rather, it sounds like you've been sucked into the idea that you will achieve audio bliss by buying a new amp from reading things on the web by sources that are highly questionable


But aren't pure tones more difficult to handle than musical signals? I thought bench tests stress amps out far more than in a typical home environment. So if the distortion is low in a bench test, it probably would be lower in reality using typical music in a home?
I
I thought about a power amp because some people told me my amp wouldn't be sufficient to drive my speakers to their fullest extent. I've never owned a dedicated power amp, so I'm trying to understand the technical aspects which might help me to understand what I'm missing, assuming I am missing anything.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #26
Could you explain what you mean by "it is the same whether the music is loud or soft"? I'm not entirely sure what you mean in your second sentence. English is not my first language, so I'm trying to understand this as best I can.


Let me try. We are talking about four different things here - power, voltage, current and impedance. They are all related. Power is what counts, and is the result of voltage multiplied by current (P = U * I), so a result of both voltage and current. Current depends on voltage and impedance (this is Ohm's Law), current is voltage divided by impedance (I = U / Z). If you combine the equations, you get P = U * I = U * (U / Z) = U²/Z - thus power depends on the square of the voltage divided by the impedance. The impedance doesn't depend on power, voltage or current, but varies with frequency in a complex way. It is usually specified as a "typical" or "average" value over the frequency range, or at some specific frequency (so typically 4 or 8 ohm).


Okay, but watts are watts? Volts are volts? You don't get better quality current? Or is it all the same?

You mentioned impedance does not depend on power or current. But I thought low impedances required more current? My speakers have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms but it dips down to 3.4 ohms.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #27
Re: driving your speakers to their fullest extent
Is your system not loud enough for you?  Do you hear distortion when it is turned up to be as loud as you'd ever listen?

The answers to these questions are far more important than understanding the relationship between voltage, current, impedance and power.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #28
Okay, but watts are watts? Volts are volts? You don't get better quality current? Or is it all the same?


Not all devices are of equal quality.  These calculations are just to figure out if a given device is able to drive a spaker without being overloaded.  It may or may not provide good quality audio (although generally most amps aren't bad if used within their design load).

You mentioned impedance does not depend on power or current. But I thought low impedances required more current? My speakers have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms but it dips down to 3.4 ohms.


Impedance is an intrinsic quality of the material.  It depends on the position of atoms and such. 

If the impedance is lower, you will have more current for a given voltage (I=V/Z).

Edit:  Z= impedance

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #29
Re: driving your speakers to their fullest extent
Is your system not loud enough for you?  Do you hear distortion when it is turned up to be as loud as you'd ever listen?

The answers to these questions are far more important than understanding the relationship between voltage, current, impedance and power.


I don't hear any audible distortion when the volume is raised. Does that mean my amp is driving the speaker fully? More power can't improve the sound at the levels I listen at? I don't listen very loud.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #30
Okay, but watts are watts? Volts are volts? You don't get better quality current? Or is it all the same?


Not all devices are of equal quality.  These calculations are just to figure out if a given device is able to drive a spaker without being overloaded.  It may or may not provide good quality audio (although generally most amps aren't bad if used within their design load).


So there is such a thing as good quality wattage and bad quality wattage? If amps are not being driven beyond their limits would the quality of wattage still matter?



Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #31
So there is such a thing as good quality wattage and bad quality wattage?


Not really.

Quote
If amps are not being driven beyond their limits would the quality of wattage still matter?


No. As long as you don't drive the amp or the speakers to clipping (And you would hear it), and still get sufficient volume, you are fine. Stop worrying!

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #32
So there is such a thing as good quality wattage and bad quality wattage?


Not really.

So something like this :




Okay, well then good.  I don't want to spend money for no reason. I think the only question that remains for me is what clipping would sound like. I wouldn't know either way and I certainly don't want to test that theory out on my own system. Are there test signals that I could listen to that are clipped, or allow me to experience what clipping can sound like with audio signals?

Thanks for the replies everyone!!

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #33
If you have an audio editor you can easily produce a piece of music with any degree of clipping you want simply by amplify it different amounts beyond 0dBfs (before playing it). Once the signal is clipped, it will be clipped no matter how softly you play it.

While this will be clipping, and will sound bad if you take it very far, it will not sound quite the same as clipping produced by driving a high power amplifier beyond its limits and especially by driving speakers beyond their limits.

Playing a clipped signal at low to moderate volume will not hurt anything, except maybe your aesthetic senses, but actually driving the amplifier or speakers into very much clipping can be very hard on them.

By hard on them, I mean blowing out the output transistors or damaging the speaker coils.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #34
If you have an audio editor you can easily produce a piece of music with any degree of clipping you want simply by amplify it different amounts beyond 0dBfs (before playing it). Once the signal is clipped, it will be clipped no matter how softly you play it.

While this will be clipping, and will sound bad if you take it very far, it will not sound quite the same as clipping produced by driving a high power amplifier beyond its limits and especially by driving speakers beyond their limits.

Playing a clipped signal at low to moderate volume will not hurt anything, except maybe your aesthetic senses, but actually driving the amplifier or speakers into very much clipping can be very hard on them.

By hard on them, I mean blowing out the output transistors or damaging the speaker coils.


I know if I listen to music with VLC player and turn the volume in VLC to 140% the sound becomes distorted, especially during peaks while wearing headphones. Is that what I could expect while an amp clips?

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #35
I don't know what VLC may be doing. I hate speculating like medieval monks who argued about how many teeth a donkey had vs how many a horse had, and considered it an intellectual sin to actually look and see. If I want to know whether something I hear is due to data clipping , or any other particular attribute, I want to look at it and see what I'm working with.

Using an audio editor in the manner I described allows that. Using 140%, whatever that means, might produce clipping but might do something else. If the result is unpleasant, then the result is unpleasant is about as exact as one can get without further investigation. Someone who believes he/she is very familiar with the sound of clipping might say "ah, clipping" -- and maybe they would be correct, but they would still be guessing if that was all the information they had.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #36
Not unlike comparing a waveform clipped with a wave editor to clipping caused by a power amp running out of headroom(?).

My educated guess would be that increasing the volume in VLC beyond 100% will sound far closer (identical) to what you are suggesting doing with a wave editor than what an actual AVR will sound like when over-driven.  Then again, maybe you have a 5Y3 plugin for your wave editor.  Not that your average AVR has a tube rectifier, but I thought I'd exaggerate a little to make my point.

@Rich B,
Increasing the volume of VLC beyond 100% should give you pretty good indication of what clipping sounds like in a general sense.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #37
Just wanted to ask, I used one of the SPL calculators to find out how much power I need roughly, and it's not much at all. I bought myself an SPL meter and the loudest that I listen is about 94 dB. Any louder and its a little uncomfortable for me.

Do SPL calculators take room gain into account? If not, how much added gain could I expect in an open-plan room?

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #38
The meter measures what it measures at the location being measured.

Do you know how many watts are required to produce this 94 dBSPL?  I'm betting it's in the single digits.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #39
If I remember correctly it was 15 watts into 8 ohms. Which means 30 watts into 4 ohms and 45 watts into 3 ohms (speakers have a minimum 3.4ohm dip according to the B&W spec sheet).

Concerning room gain, I assume the SPL calculator does not take that into account. Which means the figures I'm looking at are probably lower than they are in reality?

How much gain +- could I expect from the room that the SPL calculator would not add to the figures? 6 dB? 8 dB? Just a ballpark figure.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #40
How much gain +- could I expect from the room that the SPL calculator would not add to the figures? 6 dB? 8 dB? Just a ballpark figure.


6 dB is a good rough estimate.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #41
I think the only question that remains for me is what clipping would sound like.


Do you know dubstep?


I know if I listen to music with VLC player and turn the volume in VLC to 140% the sound becomes distorted, especially during peaks while wearing headphones. Is that what I could expect while an amp clips?


Yes, exactly.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #42
If I remember correctly it was 15 watts into 8 ohms. Which means 30 watts into 4 ohms and 45 watts into 3 ohms (speakers have a minimum 3.4ohm dip according to the B&W spec sheet).

Those look like peak figures to me and the impedance should not be a factor.  What is the crest factor?  What is the distance?  What is the efficiency of the speaker?

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #43
If I remember correctly it was 15 watts into 8 ohms. Which means 30 watts into 4 ohms and 45 watts into 3 ohms (speakers have a minimum 3.4ohm dip according to the B&W spec sheet).

Those look like peak figures to me and the impedance should not be a factor.  What is the crest factor?  What is the distance?  What is the efficiency of the speaker?


Sensitivity is 90 dB 1W/1M. Seated distance is 4 meters. I have no idea what the crest factor is. But the figures I gave you are peak figures. I listen to stereo music, Blu-ray, satellite etc which I imagine would have a high crest factor.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #44
It is amazing to think that a garden variety AVR could sound as good as a top-end integrated amp if the only ingredient involved was to ensure low distortion.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #45
I've been extremely satisfied with a 60W Yamaha RX-460 in a small to medium-sized room since I bought it in 1994.

Wikipedia should tell you all you want to know about crest factor.  I am also curious as to why you are providing such vastly different power levels.  If I wanted to know how much voltage or current was needed to drive your speaker at a specific frequency it would matter but I was only interested in power.  I was asking you to consider how much power was required for typical nominal listening levels in order to get a better feeling for what this stuff really means.

I'm glad to see that you now realize that you don't need a new amplifier.

EDIT:
BTW, my 60W receiver?
It's 60W @6 Ohms. At 8 Ohms it's rated @55W.
If I were to use the amp to drive a 6 ohm speaker at 90 dBSPL @1m with a 1kHz tone, it would deliver the same power as if it were driving an 8 Ohm speaker at 90 dBSPL @1m with a 1kHz tone, provided the speakers had the same efficiency.

 

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #46
It has been determined in ABX tests, overs the past several decades, that people cannot tell any difference between the most expensive amplifiers and the least expensive that meet minimum hifi specs (essentially everything approaching $100 on up). There are many in the audiophile circles that like to dispute these tests, mainly on emotional considerations, but that doesn't change the results.

From what I've read, it seems the aspect that is most likely to be noticeable as a difference is frequency response, the amplifier not being linear at either the very low or very high audio frequencies. This is not a problem that plagues modern equipment save perhaps cheap boom boxes and children's games.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #47
There will also be phase differences.

While I have a BSEE, I do not consider myself an expert power amplifier design, nor would I qualify myself an enthusiast.  I will say that I am enthusiastic about guitar amps, especially the kinds that use output tubes that are played at levels to where these tubes are over-driven.

I do not believe it is at all controversial to say that different topologies can sound different, especially when saturated.  Using tubes for rectification can also have a pronounced effect.  It is my understanding that this effect is mainly due to phase response.

I am in no way trying to suggest that competently designed power amplifiers will sound different when operating within their rated specifications, regardless of the topology, assuming they are designed to deliver a flat response.

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #48
I've been extremely satisfied with a 60W Yamaha RX-460 in a small to medium-sized room since I bought it in 1994.

Wikipedia should tell you all you want to know about crest factor.  I am also curious as to why you are providing such vastly different power levels.  If I wanted to know how much voltage or current was needed to drive your speaker at a specific frequency it would matter but I was only interested in power.  I was asking you to consider how much power was required for typical nominal listening levels in order to get a better feeling for what this stuff really means.

I'm glad to see that you now realize that you don't need a new amplifier.

EDIT:
BTW, my 60W receiver?
It's 60W @6 Ohms. At 8 Ohms it's rated @55W.
If I were to use the amp to drive a 6 ohm speaker at 90 dBSPL @1m with a 1kHz tone, it would deliver the same power as if it were driving an 8 Ohm speaker at 90 dBSPL @1m with a 1kHz tone, provided the speakers had the same efficiency.


Okay, but what happens if a speaker has a thumping 40 Hz bass line? Are the SPL calculator figures thrown out the window? There is no specific frequency range that is specified with the calculator that I am aware of. So how would that change things as far as power needed? If I only need 30 watts using a 1kHz tone I would imagine the situation would be very different using dynamic musical signals with deep bass content. Am I wrong?

Amp power AVR vs Power amp

Reply #49
It depends on the efficiency of your speaker at your frequency of interest and the room acoustics.

I don't think you want to be anywhere near a speaker playing a 1kHz tone at 30 watts.