Holland - Pim fortuin

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Holland - Pim fortuin

2002-05-06 20:24:57

Well guys, u may have read it in the news. In holland, Pim Fortuin has been shot. I know it has nothing to do with audio, but I had to say it anywhere... Its really a sad thing. If u dont know him: he is a doctor in sociology, who has been writing columns and books about our government for years. He decided, the end of last year, to compete in our elections this year.
He quickly became the thirt party in the polls, which meant he whould be in the government (in holland, there are always cooperations of partys who rule the land, because no-one is big enough to do it on his own - the poldermodel).
He was very populair among alot of people - he was not such a politician, but 'fresh', said what he thought, was clever (he was a good debater, trown them all out
and now. he's dead. someone shot him, for still unknown reason. U know, this is bad for our democracy. maybe alot didnt agree with him, but everybody has the right to enter the elections, to say wat he wants. thats a thing we really vallue very high.

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #1 – 2002-05-06 21:14:49

"Fortuyn has provoked public indignation by calling for the Netherlands' borders to be closed to immigrants and by describing Islam as a 'backward' religion."

There are few people I would be less sad about having been killed.

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #2 – 2002-05-06 21:33:52

We live in a democracy. everyone should have the right to say whatever he wants. to think whatever he wants. Although I didnt agree with him either, it is absolutely wrong that this happened. It is indermining the right of free speach, wich is fundamental to our modern society. If we dont fight this, we will fall back to a dictatorial regime, to communism like it isn in china, and was in russia. and thats deeply bad.

that closing of the borders was, as he said, the last exit, he first simply wanted to restrict the amounts of immigrants, which are the reason of alot problems in holland. You cant blame them for being poor, but it is a fact that their low social-economical status is the reason for a lot of trouble - like criminalisation of the younger immigrants. He was for integration - they must be part of the society. alot of immigrants also voted from him!!!

About the islam, well, he has said short before he died - 'one might say they are just behind'. And you cant say he's wrong on that, at least a big part of the muslims is quite 'behind', at least if you look from the western eyes (wheter that is right or wrong is another discussion...)

But again, that has nothing to do with the fact that this is an attack on democracy and freedom... which i deeply regret.

thereby, the politics in holland are really boring. he was lighting them up... a bald gay, professor, who says controversial things - has enourmous ideas about the (in)efficiency of our government (which is really disastrous) - he was really nice to look at, when debating with the other politicians.

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #3 – 2002-05-08 22:54:52

Quote

Originally posted by Jospoortvliet
we will fall back to a dictatorial regime, to communism like it isn in china, and was in russia. and thats deeply bad.

Please do not equate dictatorial regime with communism. Dictatiorial regims are often a byproduct of extremist politics, but that is as much true of left wing (communism) as it is for right wing (similar to Pim Fortuyns Party). Plenty of examples for the latter too.

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that closing of the borders was, as he said, the last exit, he first simply wanted to restrict the amounts of immigrants, which are the reason of alot problems in holland. You cant blame them for being poor, but it is a fact that their low social-economical status is the reason for a lot of trouble - like criminalisation of the younger immigrants. He was for integration - they must be part of the society.

You cannot integrate people if you do not allow them to enter the country.

Moreover, integration needs to come from both sides. Any idea why many immigrants have a low social-economic status? Try applying for a job as a stranger. Oops. Guess you're SOL.

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alot of immigrants also voted from him!!!

Fairy tale/Urban legend. They are a very small minority.

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About the islam, well, he has said short before he died - 'one might say they are just behind'. And you cant say he's wrong on that, at least a big part of the muslims is quite 'behind', at least if you look from the western eyes (wheter that is right or wrong is another discussion...)

It's good that you point it out. The muslims can say just as well our society is behind. Equalizing strange with inferior is easy but wrong.

Quote

thereby, the politics in holland are really boring. he was lighting them up... a bald gay, professor, who says controversial things - has enourmous ideas about the (in)efficiency of our government (which is really disastrous) - he was really nice to look at, when debating with the other politicians.

A politicians capability has nothing to do whatsoever with his looks, the way he talks, or what ideas he comes up with. It is about what they realistically can actually accomplish. Void promises are no good. It's the hypocresy of right-wing parties that they blame the others to make them, yet, their propaganda is no better.

The big popularity and appeal of extremist right-wing parties like Fortuyns is exactly the appeal of the leaders. Now Fortuyn is gone, his party is essentially as good as dead too. They do not have a policy or a programma, they have a leader with promises to sell. Whether there is actually anything behind those promises is another matter.

The immigrants issue is used to have someone to blame. This is why it's also common to all extreme-rightist parties. If you blame it on someone else, you're in the clear, and you don't offend potential voters. Just get rid of the 'problem' (i.e. immigrants) and your life will be better!

It's an easy message. Don't fall for it. THINK

--
GCP

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #4 – 2002-05-09 01:31:53

What you say about his politics might all be true.

But yet, I think it's missing the main point: A politician has been shot, probably because somebody disagreed with his views.

In a democracy, it's not up to a politician to decide what is right or wrong - it's up to the people.

When a politician comes along and suggests something that is wrong in the eyes of others, then it's the job of other politicians to explain why it is wrong. Having the opponent executed is not the democratic solution. (I am NOT implying here that any other politician might secretly be happy about this tragedy).

And when elections come along, the people tell the politicians what they think of them. In a strong democracy, this usually works. Most bad examples we have in history (ie Germany in the early 30s) took place in undeveloped democracies.

In a nutshell: You might not mourn over the loss of a particular politician, but you should mourn over the loss of freedom and democracy.

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #5 – 2002-05-09 09:15:52

Quote

Originally posted by Amadeus
What you say about his politics might all be true.
But yet, I think it's missing the main point: A politician has been shot, probably because somebody disagreed with his views.

Of course I do not condone shooting someone because you disagree with his views. It's contrary to all values a democracy stands for.

If the killer tried to silence Fortuyns views, he will have failed badly. Fortuyn has now become a martyr for the right-wing parties. Killing someone never kills his views.

--
GCP

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #6 – 2002-05-09 13:51:23

Quote

Originally posted by Garf

Please do not equate dictatorial regime with communism. Dictatiorial regims are often a byproduct of extremist politics, but that is as much true of left wing (communism) as it is for right wing (similar to Pim Fortuyns Party). Plenty of examples for the latter too.

Imho, the idea after communism is great, but it does inevitable lead to supression of the individual. And I really value my freedom (of speach, etc) very high.
But, you are right that this is a byproduct.
Thereby, it is wrong to state that Pim Fortuyn was right-wing. He wasnt... Alot of his oideas where quite 'left', like bringing a few big companies back under the rule of the government.

Quote

You cannot integrate people if you do not allow them to enter the country.

Moreover, integration needs to come from both sides. Any idea why many immigrants have a low social-economic status? Try applying for a job as a stranger. Oops. Guess you're SOL.

He wanted to allow people who where on the flee, but he wanted to try to help them as much as possible in the neighbourhood of their own country. It is useless to fly them throughout the world - they should remain where they are, and be helped there.
There by, he wanted to solve the problems with the current immigrants, by spreading them over the population, instead of allowing them to form "ghetto's". thats why alot of immigrants also voted for him... He did not refuse to talk about integraionproblems (as most other politicians, esp. the left, did), but wanted to solve it, and had also ideas about it. He was a professor in sociologie, after all, and had done research after this problem...

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Fairy tale/Urban legend. They are a very small minority.

sorry, not. in Rotterdam, where his party gained in 35% of the votes, from nothing, alot immigrants voted for him (50% of the people of Rotterdam ARE immigrants, he whould have never reached 35% without them).

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It's good that you point it out. The muslims can say just as well our society is behind. Equalizing strange with inferior is easy but wrong.

Of course, it is a etnocentric thought. But their current culture is in a lot of ways comparable to the european, in the middle-ages (just before the age of the great thinkers in the 17th century, the 'verlichting' (illimination?) in dutch.)

Quote

A politicians capability has nothing to do whatsoever with his looks, the way he talks, or what ideas he comes up with. It is about what they realistically can actually accomplish. Void promises are no good. It's the hypocresy of right-wing parties that they blame the others to make them, yet, their propaganda is no better.

He talked about problems, while the other politicians denied their existence. Thereby, he had alot ideas about change. Maybe he whouldnt be able to solve the problems, but the other politicians already proved they where unable to solve them, so alot people thought he deserved a chance.

Quote

The big popularity and appeal of extremist right-wing parties like Fortuyns is exactly the appeal of the leaders. Now Fortuyn is gone, his party is essentially as good as dead too. They do not have a policy or a programma, they have a leader with promises to sell. Whether there is actually anything behind those promises is another matter.

- he wasnt right-wing, and esp. not extremist. And I think every new party, whithout a good party-structure, depends on (several) important people within the organisation. He was indeed crucial, 'Lijst Pim Fortuyn' won't do much good.

Quote

The immigrants issue is used to have someone to blame. This is why it's also common to all extreme-rightist parties. If you blame it on someone else, you're in the clear, and you don't offend potential voters. Just get rid of the 'problem' (i.e. immigrants) and your life will be better!

U dont live in a place with alot of immigrants... (neither do I, but I know some people who do. And the problems ARE THERE, and the are there because of the immigrants.)
Of course the immigrants aren't that bad, but their social-economical status, bad knowledge of our language, problems with their muslim-being, - it all results in problems. They should, as fortuyn said, not be removed or send back (like the extremistic right-winged politicians want!!) but helped, and if necesairy, forced, to integrate.

Quote

It's an easy message. Don't fall for it. THINK

its indeed easy to say there are problems (strange the others thought it not 'political correct' to point to the problems) but he has solutions, too...

Quote

--
GCP

Jos

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #7 – 2002-05-09 13:53:23

Quote

Originally posted by Amadeus
What you say about his politics might all be true.

But yet, I think it's missing the main point: A politician has been shot, probably because somebody disagreed with his views.

In a democracy, it's not up to a politician to decide what is right or wrong - it's up to the people.

When a politician comes along and suggests something that is wrong in the eyes of others, then it's the job of other politicians to explain why it is wrong. Having the opponent executed is not the democratic solution. (I am NOT implying here that any other politician might secretly be happy about this tragedy).

And when elections come along, the people tell the politicians what they think of them. In a strong democracy, this usually works. Most bad examples we have in history (ie Germany in the early 30s) took place in undeveloped democracies.

In a nutshell: You might not mourn over the loss of a particular politician, but you should mourn over the loss of freedom and democracy.

This is something I agree with fully. THATS the point. I whould never have voted for Pim, although I simpatized with alot of his ideas, but he should have never been shot...

J

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #8 – 2002-05-09 23:09:32

Quote

Originally posted by Jospoortvliet

U dont live in a place with alot of immigrants... (neither do I, but I know some people who do. And the problems ARE THERE, and the are there because of the immigrants.)
Of course the immigrants aren't that bad, but their social-economical status, bad knowledge of our language, problems with their muslim-being, - it all results in problems. They should, as fortuyn said, not be removed or send back (like the extremistic right-winged politicians want!!) but helped, and if necesairy, forced, to integrate.

This post doesn't look good, maybe you should rephrase?

<ironic mode>

* I have a friend whose brother once met a muslim, so trust me I know my stuff....

* Islam is a big problem. We shouldn't allow people to be muslims.

* If we force people to learn our habits they will soon realise how far superior the dutch/western european/whatever culture and language are and convert immediately and all problems go away.

</ironic mode>

But that's just my slightly biased interpretation.

regards,
Erik

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #9 – 2002-05-10 08:44:48

hehe I know its not all that black-white, and in fact im more used to defend the immigrants (against ppl like my brother and father, who whould rather send them all back instead of letting them integrate).
But I have learned, over the time, that the problems immigrants create are there, and that must be said, before there can be something done...
Again, these ppl aren't anything worse than we are, i dont believe in racism, but the way immigrants raise their kids leads to alot problems in our modern community. also, their intolerant views against other religions is a fact, one can't deny.
the 'western' religions, as Pim wrote in one of his books, are infected by our western filosofy of modernism, and they dont pose a threat to the democracy. but extremism, whetere muslim, hindoe or christian, IS a threat. and, because christianity has been much more influenced by modernism, and the muslims not, they pose a threat... thats what Pim said, and I think he is right. I whouldnt say 'dont let them in', but I whould say - learn them to obey our laws, let them be 'poisoned' by the modernism in our culture, and they will abandon their extremistic and problematic vieuws.

hehe... wanted to make a short post... but whatever

He, and dont see it wrong: im not a racist, not against immigrants , but one must be realistic: there ARE problems, and if we dont find a way to solve them, there might in the end be raids agains muslims / christians, and problems like they have in india, israel, serbia... Do we want that???
No... I believe good education (of our own children, and of immigrants) can solve the problem... But I think the Islam IS a problem in this, as long as it has not been domesticated, and integrated in our way-of-thinking.

*love*

J

Holland - Pim fortuin

Reply #10 – 2002-05-10 08:47:09

Oh, and sorry for my english... my translator crashes every time i start it, dunno why, but that doesnt improve my writings And this is a rather complex subject, so now ya all can see how bad my english actually is

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