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Topic: Recommendation on buying a DAC (Read 8086 times) previous topic - next topic
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Recommendation on buying a DAC

Hello,
I need to buy a 2 channel DAC with Toslink input and XLR outputs.
The price is really different from apparetely identicall spec dacs.
However, I read on ths forums that most modern AD converters produce the same quality. So I'd like to know how much should i spend in a DAC, recomendations in not overpriced dac's and if it is possible examples of dacs that are kinda snake oils.
Thanks in advance

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #1 –
I can't tell you how much to spend, but your instincts right.  The electronic component costs are not that high for a good DAC (especially when the parts are purchased in high-quantities).  Look at the specs, try to get a feel for build quality, and ignore the nonsense!!!

Labor and distribution costs can be 10 or 20 times as much for something made in small quantities the USA or Europe, compared to something mass-manufactured in China and mass-distributed.  Then, you get into things like quality of components, QA & testing, and overall build quality.    So...  a company that charges you more might not be "ripping you off"...  their costs may actually be higher.    But, just because their costs are higher doesn't guarantee that a $500 DAC is going to sound any better than a $5 soundcard. 

And yes, there is a lot of snake oil in audiophile marketing, and you can get ripped off!  And, since the high-end stuff is sold in smaller quantities the manufacturer/distributor has to make more money on each unit.  Plus,  in this market higher price often means more demand!   

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #2 –
Excellent explanation from DVDoug in the post above.

Assuming when you say TOSLINK what you mean is optical S/PDIF the product in the link below will meet your requirements. Provided you can afford to spend the equivalent of £400.

RME BabyFace

RME gear is inexpensive by audiophile standards but towards the top end in the semi-pro market. It is pretty much a standard. What you pay for over and above the likes of M-Audio, MOTU, Berhinger etc is not only professionally acceptable audio quality and excellent engineering but bullet proof reliability and, crucially, long term support. Particulary as regards drivers.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #3 –
RME Adi-2

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #4 –
Benchmark DAC or DAC PRE

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #5 –
To give you some idea the Benchmark products cost between 2x & 3x the equivalent RME competition. Probably for the reasons explained by DVDdoug in post #2.

Looks decent mind and might match your furniture better.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #6 –
Quote from: garym on
Benchmark DAC or DAC PRE

I was checking benchmark dac1. However it was the one that made me think about so different prices.
Could you tell me any of the advantages of this dac in comparision with mid-end range dac's?
Thanks

@Ronald, yes i was meaning Toslink and spdif. Sry
That dac seems ok for me, just one more question:
Can I use that dac without plug it  into a pc?  I mean  digital source-> Dac -> powered speakers

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #7 –
Quote from: PaJaRo on
Quote from: garym on
Benchmark DAC or DAC PRE

I was checking benchmark dac1. However it was the one that made me think about so different prices.
Could you tell me any of the advantages of this dac in comparision with mid-end range dac's?
Thanks


Sorry, not much help. I did some research about 3 years ago on various DACs and ended up buying the Benchmark I DAC (the version before the current version that also adds USB connection). One requirement was the XLR balanced outputs. I've been very pleased with it, but I can't claim it is better than any newer DACs that may be half the price.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #8 –
Quote from: PaJaRo on
Quote from: garym on
Benchmark DAC or DAC PRE

I was checking benchmark dac1. However it was the one that made me think about so different prices.
Could you tell me any of the advantages of this dac in comparision with mid-end range dac's?

No DACs I've seen have specs that indicate that they don't deliver high quality sound. My bet is that the only difference between reasonably priced DACs (except for functionality) is their 'sound signature' — that is, whether they colour the sound by altering the frequency respons on the analog side, or not.

The Benchmark DAC is known (and measured) to be dead neutral. Some other DACs are known to 'soften' or 'warming' the sound by adding bass and/or softening the treble.

There's some affordable Chinese DACs with XLR outputs, like the Matrix mini-i and the Citypulse DA7.2 (both with pre and headphone amp; the latter remote controlled). I've got a Matrix, and it's solid and (at least to my ears) reasonably good sounding. Sound is on the bright side, which I interpret as 'neutral'.

The Matrix has USB, AES/EBU (XLR), coax S/PDIF (BNC with RCA adaptor) and TOSlink inputs, coax (RCA) S/PDIF digital and XLR and RCA analogue outputs. AD1955 chips.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #9 –
Colorization is none of a DAC's responsibilities. Insert equalization into your playback chain if you need that.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #10 –
Quote from: googlebot on
Colorization is none of a DAC's responsibilities. Insert equalization into your playback chain if you need that.

That's my opinion exactly.

Many people tend to prefer equipment that 'warms' the sound though.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #11 –
Thanks for all replies, so far
Quote from: Hansen on
There's some affordable Chinese DACs with XLR outputs, like the Matrix mini-i and the Citypulse DA7.2 (both with pre and headphone amp; the latter remote controlled). I've got a Matrix, and it's solid and (at least to my ears) reasonably good sounding. Sound is on the bright side, which I interpret as 'neutral'.

The Matrix has USB, AES/EBU (XLR), coax S/PDIF (BNC with RCA adaptor) and TOSlink inputs, coax (RCA) S/PDIF digital and XLR and RCA analogue outputs. AD1955 chips.


I am worried about the analog otuput materials quality (usually I don't trust chinese quality). I think different outputs/cables (analog) could make quite a  big difference in sound quality. So, different prices on dacs could have something to do with that.

Just guessing, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #12 –
Quote from: PaJaRo on
Quote from: garym on
Benchmark DAC or DAC PRE

I was checking benchmark dac1. However it was the one that made me think about so different prices.
Could you tell me any of the advantages of this dac in comparision with mid-end range dac's?


There is probably no sonic or audible advantage to Benchmark products over cheaper solutions.  However, Benchmarks products are supposedly very well built, engineered to perform extremely well (as far as measurements are concerned), and it's just a solid product all around.  From what I've seen and heard they seem like they have good support as well.  Some of the employees are members on this forum and they are obviously designing their products based on good engineering and testing principles, not audio fantasy.

I suppose all that makes Benchmark stuff more expensive.  I don't own any of their products myself as I can't bring myself to spend USD $1K+ on a DAC.  But if I could...

Quote
I am worried about the analog otuput materials quality (usually I don't trust chinese quality). I think different outputs/cables (analog) could make quite a big difference in sound quality. So, different prices on dacs could have something to do with that.

Just guessing, please correct me if I'm wrong.


Nowadays most electronics are made in or around China.  Benchmark stuff is manufactured in the USA, but their connectors, components, and everything in the devices is probably made in China.  If the Chinese can send satellites into space and make a cell phone that can survive in my pocket for 4 years, they are obviously perfectly capable of making DAC components that will last.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #13 –
Quote from: odigg on
If the Chinese can send satellites into space and make a cell phone that can survive in my pocket for 4 years, they are obviously perfectly capable of making DAC components that will last.

Digital components are cheap, and it's the same stuff that sits in cheap gear from China and the more expensive types. There might be bigger differences on the analoue side — but then it's a big question whether anyone really can hear the difference between 'good' and 'very good'.

No doubt Benchmark has higher development costs than the typical Chinese manufacturer — but then what the Chinese do is the same thing the Japanese did 40 years ago: To copy the design of some Western model as faithfully as possible.

The Chinese will certainly cut down on expenses by selling directly through eBay or the factory's own web shop, with no marketing except reviews on web forums, and no Western vendors that adds to the price.

As for build quality, the Chinese and the 'American' or 'European' product might very well be made at the same Chinese factory. And if my Matrix breaks down after 3 years, it's still a 'better buy' than a Benchmark that lasts for 20...

Whether the Matrix can match the Benchmark on sound quality, I don't know, as I've never compared them directly. It would be interesting to se a true blind test between cheap and expensive DACs though.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Hansen on
There might be bigger differences on the analoue side — but then it's a big question whether anyone really can hear the difference between 'good' and 'very good'. ... Whether the Matrix can match the Benchmark on sound quality, I don't know, as I've never compared them directly. It would be interesting to se a true blind test between cheap and expensive DACs though.


I would be very surprised if somebody could obtain a positive result between an EMU 0404 (or even 0202) USB and the best Benchmark DAC, let alone a dedicated DAC like the Matrix mini-i.  If somebody did get a positive result, I would say that DAC is junk.

One quibble I have with a lot of DACs (including the Matrix mini-i) is that a lot of people rave about them but nobody actually measures them.  A measurement (which would take all of 5 minutes using RMAA) would speak volumes as to the quality the product.  Nobody does this and there have been enough well reviewed and respected "audiophile" products that have been shown to be junk in a proper technical analysis.

Benchmark provides measurements in their manual.  Even stereophile has measured the DAC 1 and states how good it is.

Quote
As for build quality, the Chinese and the 'American' or 'European' product might very well be made at the same Chinese factory. And if my Matrix breaks down after 3 years, it's still a 'better buy' than a Benchmark that lasts for 20...


Benchmark is a bit of a different company in that they make Pro-Audio eqiupment they also market to home consumers.  People who work in Pro Audio want products that are rugged, reliable, and that come with good support.  Imagine the frustration, headache, and money lost if your DAC fails during a recording session.

Many home audio consumers are happy to buy an *relatively* inexpensive product that breaks in a few years.  That gives them the option to buy something new with whatever latest technology is out there.

I don't know if everybody would agree with you that the Matrix is a better buy.  Some people want their stuff to last 10+ years, or at least know they can repair the product if it breaks in 5 years.  Not everybody wants to go through the hassle of sorting through all the marketing and chaff every few years.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #15 –
Quote from: odigg on
I don't know if everybody would agree with you that the Matrix is a better buy.  Some people want their stuff to last 10+ years, or at least know they can repair the product if it breaks in 5 years.  Not everybody wants to go through the hassle of sorting through all the marketing and chaff every few years.

I generally agree. But I could buy the Matrix just to check it out, without worrying about it's durability. I couldn't do that with a Benchmark 8 times the price.

Anyway, if I needed a separate DAC for my main set-up, I would save to buy a Benchmark — but I would be perfectly content with my Matrix, or one of my other inexpensive DACs, until I got it...

As for measurements, even with amateur equipment they're far more accurate than the human ear. Even if there's measurable differences, chances are they're not audible. Subtle (measurable but not audible) differences might be relevant in a studio environment, but hardly for home users — unless they've got every other aspect of sound reproduction, including room acoustics, under control.

What Stereophile measured on the Benchmark, by the way, was it's analogue performance. On the digital side, they just trusted the manufacturer.

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #16 –
Quote
Can I use that dac without plug it into a pc? I mean digital source-> Dac -> powered speakers


Yes.
 

Recommendation on buying a DAC

Reply #17 –
What are people's ideas on Cambridge Audio DACMAGICs?
hi