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Topic: Which bookshelf passive speaker? (Read 14966 times) previous topic - next topic
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Which bookshelf passive speaker?

I am using a pair of Spendor s3/5 speakers on a long shelf with Sonos 55wpc Connect Amp and Sonos Sub on the floor between the two and I am quite happy with how they sound with one exception - given the low sensitivity levels of the speakers - about 82dB - they don't go loud enough for my needs at times. For up to moderately loud levels, they are excellent.
I would like to continue to use the Sonos gear, so I am looking for passive shelf mounts with the following criteria:
1. Significantly higher sensitivity, in the region of 87dB or above.
2. Good performance from 100hz to about 16khz. Below 100 hz, the Sub will take over, and above 16khz, I can't hear anything. In particular the speaker should have good midrange/vocal reproduction of acoustic music, mostly jazz. Essentially, in the 100hz to 16khz range it should do justice to well recorded tracks from a 55 wpc into 8 ohms and 100wpc into 4 ohm amp. From 100hz to 16 kHz, the speakers should not dip below 4 ohms.
3. Budget up to USD 1000 for the pair.
4. Usual listening distance is 15-20 feet.
I will audition, but any assistance in helping me make a shortlist will be greatly appreciated.
PS: I should add that the Sub is able to integrate with the speakers at about 50% of its clean max output, so that ought not to be a constraint.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #1 –
I have looked at quite a few candidates, but all I have seen go down to significantly lower levels than 100hz, which would not only be a waste in my case, but would probably involve compromises at the price point for above 100hz sound quality. The Spendors are specified to go down only to 90 hz - what I am looking for is a similar speaker with higher sensitivity.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #2 –
What are your limitations on size/dimensions of prospective speakers?

Some of the most efficient speakers have quite large and/or numerous drivers, so this is probably an important criterion to specify.
For reference, at one time I was using 10" EPI Magnus 3-ways as 'shelf speakers' - they were on a shelf, but it was a pretty large shelf.

Furthermore, speakers with the ability to transduce frequencies below 90Hz are not necessarily less desirable for producing the frequencies that you're most interested in than more limited designs. Speakers with integrated subwoofers should obviously be avoided, but a speaker capable of outputting 110Hz with fantastic efficiency is very likely to be able to handily put out 85Hz, and may still in fact be more efficient at 110Hz or even 200Hz than a speaker that cannot play below 90Hz with any appreciable output.

Judging by your description, you're most interested in speakers that are highly efficient over most of the audible range. Will you be incorporating a filter in the high frequency range to prevent the amp and/or speakers from producing 18KHz, say? I mention this because certain high efficiency designs may incorporate 'super-tweeters' to improve their efficiency in the highest frequency bands. That said, jazz (excepting maybe some fusion) doesn't tend to have an overwhelming amount of very high frequency content...

Also, you will likely find a fair amount of 4 ohm (and even 6, possibly 8) nominal speakers that can drop below 4 ohms at different points; this shouldn't actually be a big deal for most amps.

What kind of SPL's are you looking for? Horn loaded piezo drivers tend to be very efficient; do you like the Klipsch "sound"?

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #3 –
Long-time KEF coaxial fan here. Well worth checking out, IMO.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Audible! on
What are your limitations on size/dimensions of prospective speakers?

speaker capable of outputting 110Hz with fantastic efficiency is very likely to be able to handily put out 85Hz, and may still in fact be more efficient at 110Hz or even 200Hz than a speaker that cannot play below 90Hz with any appreciable output.

Will you be incorporating a filter in the high frequency range to prevent the amp and/or speakers from producing 18KHz, say?

Also, you will likely find a fair amount of 4 ohm (and even 6, possibly 8) nominal speakers that can drop below 4 ohms at different points; this shouldn't actually be a big deal for most amps.

What kind of SPL's are you looking for? Horn loaded piezo drivers tend to be very efficient; do you like the Klipsch "sound"?


The speaker size is a limitation - the Spendors are compact bookshelfs and I can go a couple of sizes up to a regular or largish shelf mounted. But not something like a Harbeth C7 - the C is for Compact, but these are way to large for my shelf and need stands to give of their best.
I have no problem with speakers that go below 90 hz, as long as they do the job above 90hz just as well as speakers that don't, at the price point. It is just that since the Sub can cross over from 50hz to 110hz in 10 hz steps, anything below 90 hz will not be used. I don't plan to install filters and I don't need responses above 20khz - why pay for what won't be heard, given the price point constraint?
As for impedances, the Connect Amp is a good amp within its limits - 55wpc into 8 and 100wpc into 4. When impedances dip much below 4, protection circuitry kicks in quite early. Of course if the sub 4 ohms depths are plumbed at below 90hz, it should not matter.
I am not familiar with Klipsch, but I can put a recommended model on the audition short list. I am not sure what SPLs the Spendors are delivering just now - I'd say about 20% louder perceived sound levels should do the trick.
Quote from: JabbaThePrawn on
Long-time KEF coaxial fan here. Well worth checking out, IMO.

Yes, KEF is on the short list already - I have used them in the past. The LS50 is out of reach, I was looking at the Q300.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: JabbaThePrawn on
Long-time KEF coaxial fan here. Well worth checking out, IMO.


I have a pair of Q15s that I have had for a long time.

The weakness of the Q-series drivers  is that the woofer cone forms part of the waveguide for the tweeter, and it moves quite a bit unless you high pass it fairly aggressively (say 80 Hz) . As the larger part of the tweeter waveguide moves around it changes the operational parameters of the tweeter in ways that are abundantly measurable and audible.  if one measures the properties of the tweeter while moving the cone around with say a 9 volt battery, this becomes apparent.  Another good argument for having a subwoofer.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: KumarK on
The speaker size is a limitation

Then you should specify those limits, including weight.

Quote from: KumarK on
Yes, KEF is on the short list already - I have used them in the past. The LS50 is out of reach, I was looking at the Q300.

The Q100 is the better Q series choice. The first order filter/cone damping does not sufficiently suppress the larger Q300 woofers upper breakup, as it does with the Q100. This is first hand info, not hearsay.
The R100 better yet and in your price range...although in India.....
The main problem I see, is no clear high pass for the speaker. Sonos mentions a "80hz crossover" subwoofer output. What does that mean, a fixed 80hz low pass? If so, the sats get a full range signal?
I too would recommend the KEFs, but only if high passed. Without, I would look at something like the JBL Studio 530...unless dimension issues. Then maybe the new Infinity Ref 153.
If there are any pro audio shops around, you could try auditioning some passive monitors, including the inexpensive, but quite good Behringer B2030p.
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #7 –
JBL LSR6300 Studio Monitors perhaps
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?  ;~)

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #8 –
How adjustable is the Sonos sub? I have no experience with the brand at all.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
Then you should specify those limits, including weight.


The Q100 is the better Q series choice. The first order filter/cone damping does not sufficiently suppress the larger Q300 woofers upper breakup, as it does with the Q100. This is first hand info, not hearsay.
The R100 better yet and in your price range...although in India.....
The main problem I see, is no clear high pass for the speaker. Sonos mentions a "80hz crossover" subwoofer output. What does that mean, a fixed 80hz low pass? If so, the sats get a full range signal?
I too would recommend the KEFs, but only if high passed. Without, I would look at something like the JBL Studio 530...unless dimension issues. Then maybe the new Infinity Ref 153.
If there are any pro audio shops around, you could try auditioning some passive monitors, including the inexpensive, but quite good Behringer B2030p.

Noted thanks. I am looking at dimensions of HWD, in mm of about 350/200/300, that of one speaker I plan to listen to, the Dali Zensor 3. It weighs 6.3 kilos, but that can be higher till 10 kilos. So can dimensions, to the extent of 10%.
The Sonos amp crossover is 80hz for third party subs. But with the Sonos Sub, one can choose crossovers from 50hz to 110hz, in 10hz steps, based on main speaker behaviour. The amp then passes on the chosen frequency and above to the main speakers.
Quote from: 2tec on
JBL LSR6300 Studio Monitors perhaps

I will see if I can get to see JBL too.

Quote from: JabbaThePrawn on
How adjustable is the Sonos sub? I have no experience with the brand at all.

See above.
And thanks for the inputs.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: 2tec on
JBL LSR6300 Studio Monitors perhaps


High performance but pricey.

The LSR 305 and 308 have a good rep based on a short time in the marketplace. They are IMO take-offs on the Behringer B2030 and B2031 which are available in both active and passive versions. JBL says theirs are better, of course and they might be.

It has been said that Ullie laid off the development team for the B2030 and B2031 not that long after they finished those projects, so it remains to be seen where any upgrades or sequels will come from.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #12 –
Not sure if they are available in KumarK's territory, but Q Acoustics speakers seem to punch above their weight and are keenly priced too.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
The Q100 is the better Q series choice. The first order filter/cone damping does not sufficiently suppress the larger Q300 woofers upper breakup, as it does with the Q100. This is first hand info, not hearsay.

Any idea how true the claimed 86dB sensitivity of the Q100 is? My Spendors are quoted to be 84, but Stereophile measured them to be 81.5, and I can believe that seeing how the 55wpc Sonos amp deals with them. If 86 for the Q100 is valid, it will be a good step up and should meet my needs, but if it is significantly lower in reality, I won't see much change in sound levels.
On the other hand, the well reviewed Dali Zensor 1 was measured by Stereophile to be 88dB, against a spec of 87. With a Sub passing at 100/110 hz, they might do very well too.
I am also looking to see where I can find the Behringer 2030Ps - Behringer seems to have more quality issues than some others, but there is less to go wrong with passives, and further dilution of risk since unlike many Hifi makes, they are sold as a single speaker too.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #15 –
Reading a little more about the 2030P - if the claimed flat measurement from 70hz and up is valid, why would one want to spend more than about USD 200 for the pair if the sound levels delivered were adequate? And with a claimed sensitivity of 89dB, they should fill a medium sized room with 55 wpc too. What would be the benefit of spending more, and a lot more in some cases, in terms of sound levels and sound quality? Why would any much more expensive passive speaker deliver more in a room than they would, up to the sound levels they are designed to deliver even for just music listening? Is the extra money for just better looks?
They seem hard to find though.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: KumarK on
Any idea how true the claimed 86dB sensitivity of the Q100 is? My Spendors are quoted to be 84, but Stereophile measured them to be 81.5, and I can believe that seeing how the 55wpc Sonos amp deals with them. If 86 for the Q100 is valid, it will be a good step up and should meet my needs, but if it is significantly lower in reality, I won't see much change in sound levels.
On the other hand, the well reviewed Dali Zensor 1 was measured by Stereophile to be 88dB, against a spec of 87. With a Sub passing at 100/110 hz, they might do very well too.

the KEFs are close, but that's a voltage sensitivity and they are essentially 4ohm speakers. They should be a bit louder than the Spendors.
The Dalis appear to eschew any baffle loss correction filter (hence the saddle below 1kHz), so they would be louder yet and the shelf placement will more than compensate for any LF roll off due to the lack of baffle step filter. Complete lack of directivity control will probably result is slightly more diffuse imaging, though I can't imagine your getting much of that with bookshelf placement.
A pic of your setup, again, would be helpful. What about the R100?

Quote from: KumarK on
Reading a little more about the 2030P - if the claimed flat measurement from 70hz and up is valid, why would one want to spend more than about USD 200 for the pair if the sound levels delivered were adequate?

Plain non-bling all business looks, lack of grill, poor street cred. RichB would be appalled. Automatic loss of audiophile card.
Hard to find...in India? Bit surprised by that.

cheers,

AJ


Loudspeaker manufacturer

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: ajinfla on
the KEFs are close, but that's a voltage sensitivity and they are essentially 4ohm speakers. They should be a bit louder than the Spendors.
The Dalis appear to eschew any baffle loss correction filter (hence the saddle below 1kHz), so they would be louder yet and the shelf placement will more than compensate for any LF roll off due to the lack of baffle step filter. Complete lack of directivity control will probably result is slightly more diffuse imaging, though I can't imagine your getting much of that with bookshelf placement.
A pic of your setup, again, would be helpful. What about the R100?


Hard to find...in India? Bit surprised by that.

cheers,

AJ

Are they 4ohms speakers? - KEF states 8.
The R100s run to about USD 1100 a pair here, the Q100s are half of that. I hate spending more when less will suffice for my needs.
I have two set ups, I will take pics and post tomorrow.
As you will see in the smaller set up I am checking out the Dali Zensor 1 and so far, they sound fine. At USD 350 the pair here, decent value for the money.
The Behringers are currently out of stock, resupply said to be happening soon. Poor street cred doesn't matter to me now, just the job it does/can do for a lifetime of maybe ten years. Rest is trivial.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #18 –
Want cheap? Secondhand NHT Super Zero. I've got a pair running in my office and they play loud enough to draw complaints from the nearby factory. Good, clean sound, and with a little work on the crossover (there's an odd hole between woofer and tweeter), it's an LS3/5A beater.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #19 –
Two photos attached. The first is of the set up for the dining area, where the Dali Zensors being auditioned are visible. The second is of the living area where apart from adults, a large dog and a small granddaughter are also active so I have to keep things out of their way. Current speakers there are ten year old Quad 11Ls, and there is a Sonos Sub on the floor behind the chair.
Both set ups are fed by visible Sonos 55wpc amps, and in the case of the living room, LF below 110 hz is looked after by the Sub. There, to the right is open area, which is perhaps why room nodes aren't a big issue there.
Uh...how do I insert jpgs here?

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: KumarK on
Uh...how do I insert jpgs here?


I use Photobucket, though there are many similar free storage sites. Upload you pics there, then use Insert Image button and paste the address up to the .jpg (or other type) part, truncate any remainder.

If you can audition the Behringers once restocked, great, otherwise it seems the Dalis may work for you.

cheers,

AJ
Loudspeaker manufacturer

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #21 –


Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #22 –
The Dalis seem fine where they are - I am looking to see if I can improve on the sound from the Quad 11Ls with an alternative - if I find something audibly better, those can move to my TV room where SQ isn't as important for my needs.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #23 –
Have you considered the Paradigm Studio 20 v5? That is what I have and I'm very happy with the performance so far.

Which bookshelf passive speaker?

Reply #24 –
We've been auditioning some floor standing speakers lately. One of the best IMHO was the Martin Logan Motion 20. They make a bookshelf version of it called the Motion 15 that fits your price range. I really liked the air motion transformer tweeter they had, lots of detail without ever being too harsh.

e: In case anyone is curious as to what I auditioned, full list:

Canton Vento 870
B&W 684
B&W 683
Martin Logan Motion 20
Elac 247.2
Quadral M40
Focal Aria 926
KEF R500

The KEF R500 was very good overall, but I would've bought the Motion 20 of the lot. My friend will pick up the Motion 20 and der KEF R500 next weekend and we're gonna do some more listening tests at his home. Anyway, try to listen to Motion 15s if you can.
Blubb