Whats is the worst mastered CD [your opinions] ??
I've noticed there has been a few post where people have complained about how bad some cd's are, so I've only posted this to find out the general opinion in the forums.
I am just curious thats all
Dok Lorenz
Whats is the worst mastered CD [your opinions] ??
I've noticed there has been a few post where people have complained about how bad some cd's are, so I've only posted this to find out the general opinion in the forums.
I am just curious thats all
Dok Lorenz
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=242645")
That's a tough one. But I'm going to base my answer partly on 'expectation' of the company producing the album.
Tierney Sutton : Dancing in The Dark
Not considering the annoying standard compresison on the vocals....this CD has many audible distortions(on headphones) on the peak passages of the piano/voice found in several songs. Inspection of the waveform after hearing these annoying static/fuzzy sounds revealed many clipped peaks. It's not like I have not seen/heard worse examples, but......
The real reason this poorly matered CD bothers me is that it is a Telarc release. I suppose I expect to never find such examples of distortion on a CD released by a company that specifically markets itself as a sound quality oriented one:
[a href="http://www.telarc.com/about/history.asp?mscssid=5BWRX80C168W8M9KVKPXGXUFJ81M2MPE]http://www.telarc.com/about/history.asp?ms...KPXGXUFJ81M2MPE[/url]
Here is a zip file(552kb) with a couple of samples(44.1/16 wave):
http://www.linaeum.com/downloads/misc/tsut...t10_samples.zip (http://www.linaeum.com/downloads/misc/tsutton_t10_samples.zip)
-Chris
EDIT: Added samples.
I know there's a thread on the forums already dedicated to "slovenly" mastering.
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication is always on the top of many peoples lists.
I was really disappointed with how "Full Moon" from Brandy was mastered. I love her voice and i like several songs off that album, but this CD just sounds like a wall of noise, only interrupted for the song change every few minutes. It's not the worst mastering ever, but since i'd just love to hear it in better quality, it's the one i'm most annoyed with.
Deep Purple - Deepest Purple (Best Of)
They tried to remaster the tunes, and they sound so thin and crappy. My vinyls sounded better.
Tie:
Audioslave - Audioslave
Rush - Vapor Trails
Opeth - My Arms, Your Hearse
Opeth - Morningrise
These two Opeth albums are really good, but they could have sounded much better, and then (from what I've read) they really got screwed over during the recording the mastering (the producer kept turning down the acoustic guitars, which was against the band's wishes)
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon (The newest release.. the Hybrid SACD one)
The CD layer on this one really ruined this album..
[Edit added one album]
Foo Fighters - One By One
John Mayer - Heavier Things
Tie:
Audioslave - Audioslave
Rush - Vapor Trails
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242659"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know about the Audioslave (I havent listened to it) but Vapor Trials was easily the worst mastered album of 2002. Their albums have always tended to be poorly mastered but Vapor Trails was a new low.
Of all my albums, it's a three-way tie for horridness:
Rush - Vapor Trails (2002)
Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers - The Last DJ (2002)
Audioslave- Audioslave (2002)
2002 is really the last year that I was buying new CD's in any quantity until the past few months, when I acquired a SACD/DVD-A player. The only reason why I opened up the door for these questionable "hi-res" formats is for the better mastering (and to a lesser extent, multichannel capability), not the increased sampling rates. So far, the handful of SACD/DVD-A's I've bought really do sound great, but it's probably just a matter of time before somebody boinks the hell out of them, too.
It's sad how the industry suckered me into investing in the new format(s). They purposely screwed up a perfectly good product (CD) as to get people who actually care about sound quality to buy the latest thing. Luckily, there's still a ton of older releases on CD that haven't been butchered (yet), so I doubt my SACD/DVD-A collection will ever get very big.
Rush - Vapor Trails
RHCP - Californication
Audioslave - Audioslave
these are the 3 loudest/worst sounding cd's i have.
Tie:
Audioslave - Audioslave
Rush - Vapor Trails
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242659"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know about the Audioslave (I havent listened to it) but Vapor Trials was easily the worst mastered album of 2002. Their albums have always tended to be poorly mastered but Vapor Trails was a new low.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242708"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Their 2004 EP,
Feedback is perhaps a hair bit better, but I'd say that it sounds pretty similar in terms of production/mastering to Vapor Trails. So, the trend continues
Nevermore - Enemies of Reality
It's a shame that such a great band would put out a cd that sounds so horrible compared to all previous releases. This album has the worst mastering of anything I have personally listened to. It even makes Animositisomina look good. Stick with their earlier (brilliant) work if you can.
Agreed, Audioslave is awful.
Probably the worst track I've heard in a while was Eminem's Lose Yourself. I think in the studio that snare drum was intentionally squashed just to the breaking point (why they didn't just use an authentic 303 eludes me), but after mastering it's all just painful. I think this may have been intentional--the white noise effect of the 'music' makes his voice sound more hypnotic. Replaygain_track_gain of -9.93 dB.
While Peter Gabriel's initial analog to CD transfers sounded amateurish at best, his recent remasterings have been excellent, as have his digital albums. The remastered Passion soundtrack clocks in at +0.87.
Agreed, Audioslave is awful.
Hmm. Assuming the Rhapsody online version is the same as the CD version; I definately see why several people seem to think this album is a bit 'loud'. The track 'Show Me How To Live' reminded me of Soundgarden's 'Outshined' track from the album 'Badmotorfinger'. The voice and guitars are pretty similar - but the Soundgarden track did not seem to compress the voice or most of the instruments nearly as much as this AudioSlave track -- which BTW, this Audioslave track sounded to me like about the amount of cmopression used for TV commercials. IMO, it was horrid.
I remember when I was a kid and first heard a CD vs. the radio version of a song -- I remember myself wondering why the CD sounded so much better(besides the static, etc.). Later, I found out that radio broadcasts are typically heavily compressed. It's kind of hard to believe that today most of the CDs sound like the 'radio' version which I hated due to this hyper-compression. It's just unbelievable......
(http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif)
-Chris
EDIT: Added statisical analysis.
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication would have to be the worst mastered CD as far as volume goes for me. It clips like crazy and is way too loud.
Audioslave - Audioslave is up there with Red Hot Chili Peppers since it is distorted a lot.
Lamb of God - As the Palaces Burn was compressed as well, however, the compression was not all that bad and was not what bothered me about the album. The album just seemed flat to me. No real dynamics in the audio that gave the music life. I'm not talking about difference in volume I just mean the drums didn't stand out amongst the guiters, etc. The mixers could have done a bit better job with the equalizer on that album in my opinion. Now on their latest album, "Ashes of the Wake", the mixers did a much better job with the equalizer
What about Iron Maiden's "Dance Of Death"? I don't know how bad it is compared to the other albums mentioned here, but I still think it is bad. What do you folks think?
Tie:
Audioslave - Audioslave
Rush - Vapor Trails
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242659"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know about the Audioslave (I havent listened to it) but Vapor Trials was easily the worst mastered album of 2002. Their albums have always tended to be poorly mastered but Vapor Trails was a new low.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242708"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Their 2004 EP, Feedback is perhaps a hair bit better, but I'd say that it sounds pretty similar in terms of production/mastering to Vapor Trails. So, the trend continues
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242733"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What about Iron Maiden's "Dance Of Death"? I don't know how bad it is compared to the other albums mentioned here, but I still think it is bad. What do you folks think?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242757"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
@Cygnus XI-- Feedback is louder than Vapor Trails, but I think the mastering was done a bit better and does "clip" as harshly.
@rohangc-- Dance of Death is horrible, but imo, Maiden has never had the world's best production/mastering. Kevin Shirley did do a decent job on Brave New World though.
Uncle Kracker - No Stranger to Shame: This one is the worst I've heard yet. I like the music, but the clipping is so bad that I just can't enjoy listening to it. In fact, it just makes me angry to think about how good it could've been.
Heart - Jupiter's Darling: This one sounds almost just as bad. Serious clipping. I can't listen to it either.
Well, I have a huge collection of local music that was recorded, mixed and mastered by non-professionals. =D Good music, but a lot of it sounds like junk. Probably the one local album that should have sounded good was 12 Rods - Lost Time. It is a loud album, but more offensive is the horrible EQing, presumably to eek out every last decibel. It's all mids, very little bass or highs. Sample (http://www.analogy.grickle.org/music/12Rods/12%20Rods%20-%20Twenty%20Four%20Hours%20Age.mp3).
And people actually pay huge money to record at their studio!
As for professional albums... Queens of the Stone Age, Songs for the Deaf. Worst album in my personal collection.
Has anybody listened to ***hole by Gene Simmons yet? It's really loud, -12 dB replaygain for the album and -14 dB on the title track. It's not that bad really, exept that they made it as loud as they possibly could. Quieter songs with piano on them sound strange and there's highly audible clipping everywhere.
I could try to provide samples if anybody is interested, but I'm on a 56k connection at the moment so lossless would be difficult...
Their 2004 EP, Feedback is perhaps a hair bit better, but I'd say that it sounds pretty similar in terms of production/mastering to Vapor Trails. So, the trend continues
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242733"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I might have ears of tin now, thanks to all of that heavy metal in the 80s, but I didn't think Feedback was nearly as bad as Vapor Trails. I've only listened to it once or twice though and there was background noise.
I just don't get it with Rush...they must know that no one is pleased with the mastering on their albums and yet nothing changes.
Another vote for RHCP - Californication. The bad compression and clipping everywhere is really unacceptable.
Deep Purple - Deepest Purple (Best Of)
They tried to remaster the tunes, and they sound so thin and crappy. My vinyls sounded better.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242655"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to agree on The Deep Purple. Black Knight has a 'farty' clipping sound on one channel. I don't know what they were thinking when they remastered this.
Also, I agree with the guy who posted about the two Opeth albums - they sound bad compared to "Blackwater Park" . I wouldn't say it is the worst mastering I've ever heard, though - far from it.
Some other disappointments for me:
Nick Cave & Bad Seeds - Henry's Dream (Vinyl)
Cynic - Focus (CD)
All 'Cradle of filfth' albums (CD)
McCoy Tyner - New York Reunion (SACD)
Note, I'm NOT criticising the music here - I was just disappointed with the sound.
I have to agree on The Deep Purple. Black Knight has a 'farty' clipping sound on one channel. I don't know what they were thinking when they remastered this.
Also, I agree with the guy who posted about the two Opeth albums - they sound bad compared to "Blackwater Park" . I wouldn't say it is the worst mastering I've ever heard, though - far from it.
Some other disappointments for me:
Nick Cave & Bad Seeds - Henry's Dream (Vinyl)
Cynic - Focus (CD)
All 'Cradle of filfth' albums (CD)
McCoy Tyner - New York Reunion (SACD)
Note, I'm NOT criticising the music here - I was just disappointed with the sound.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242815"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, Just listening To "New York Reunion" again, its only the SACD layer that seems to have a problem - random super-low frequency (like several Hz) fluffing about on one channel of track 3. The CD layer sounds fine (actually it sounds great). So I guess it is not really a mastering problem, but perhaps a problem with the SACD encoding or my SACD player, So I would like to retract that one from the list. Thanks
I can't believe nobody mentioned St. Anger by Metallica yet. The drums sound like garbage cans, the guitars sound completely over-processed and very muddy, and all dynamic range is squashed. It's by far my worst-sounding CD.
Two other CDs from my collection come to mind:
Foo Fighters - One By One: the distorted bass drum sound is just awful.
Slipknot - Vol. 3: The Subliminal Verses: waaay too loud, lots of clipping.
Has anybody listened to ***hole by Gene Simmons yet? It's really loud, -12 dB replaygain for the album and -14 dB on the title track. It's not that bad really, exept that they made it as loud as they possibly could. Quieter songs with piano on them sound strange and there's highly audible clipping everywhere.
I could try to provide samples if anybody is interested, but I'm on a 56k connection at the moment so lossless would be difficult...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242781"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm listened that crap and sounds horrible, lot of clip.
The 3 worst that I listened
1) Metallica - St. Anger
2) RHCP - Californication
3) Rush - Vapor Trails
I haven't buy a CD since 1998, but at job (I'm radio DJ) I listen a lot of CD everyday and all of then are poorly mastered, for me is a pain in the ears have to listen rock/pop in the last years.
Hahaha... you guys must be joking... or do you all know just those few albums and do you parroting one after another just to look being in?! You seem to know everything about nothing.
Just my 2 cents.
I can't believe nobody mentioned St. Anger by Metallica yet.
St. What? Metalli-who? Seriously, though, I don't know many old-time Metallica fans who actually bought that album (or anything after Load, for that matter), so that's probbaly why nobody is mentioning it. Or maybe people just want to forget about it? Metallica has bigger problems beyond crappy mastering, and despite the fact that I bought my first Metallica record in 1988, I don't plan on making St. Anger (or any other post-Black album) a part of my collection.
And actually, their history of bad mastering goes back much further than St. Anger...
...And Justice For All sounds quite bad, but for very different reasons.
St. Anger is bad...but not that bad.
forgot to mention another cd
System of A Down by System of A Down is also VERY loud/Badly Mastered
Hahaha... you guys must be joking... or do you all know just those few albums and do you parroting one after another just to look being in?! You seem to know everything about nothing.
Just my 2 cents.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242828"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Erm... what's your point?
I did buy those three CDs I mentioned, and I did think they sound horrible before I read about them on HA. I don't know what you're insinuating...
I can't believe nobody mentioned St. Anger by Metallica yet. The drums sound like garbage cans, the guitars sound completely over-processed and very muddy, and all dynamic range is squashed. It's by far my worst-sounding CD.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242826"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suggest getting the release that includes the DVD where they play the album live in the practice room, and making yourself an audio CD of that. Lars plays a much less awkwardly-tuned drumset and it's an overall better sound.
I can't believe nobody mentioned St. Anger by Metallica yet. The drums sound like garbage cans, the guitars sound completely over-processed and very muddy, and all dynamic range is squashed. It's by far my worst-sounding CD.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242826"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suggest getting the release that includes the DVD where they play the album live in the practice room, and making yourself an audio CD of that. Lars plays a much less awkwardly-tuned drumset and it's an overall better sound.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242848"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I know. I almost always play the ripped audio from the DVD instead of the original audio CD. But since the OP asked for badly mastered CDs, I had to mention this one.
Hi, for me this is the worst mastered album:
LENNY KRAVITZ - Greatest Hits
Dynamic range is extremely low, and the sound is very distorted.
Deep Purple - Deepest Purple (Best Of)
They tried to remaster the tunes, and they sound so thin and crappy. My vinyls sounded better.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242655"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to agree on The Deep Purple. Black Knight has a 'farty' clipping sound on one channel. I don't know what they were thinking when they remastered this.
Also, I agree with the guy who posted about the two Opeth albums - they sound bad compared to "Blackwater Park" . I wouldn't say it is the worst mastering I've ever heard, though - far from it.
Some other disappointments for me:
Nick Cave & Bad Seeds - Henry's Dream (Vinyl)
Cynic - Focus (CD)
All 'Cradle of filfth' albums (CD)
McCoy Tyner - New York Reunion (SACD)
Note, I'm NOT criticising the music here - I was just disappointed with the sound.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242815"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I must admit I hate what they've done to black night on my Deep Purple - In Rock [1995 Anniversay Edition] it just sounds muffled, so I prefer to listen to the Vinyl my dad has instead. I'm not one of these vinyl is better than CD crowd but if they dont make the CD version any good i'll gladly listen to the vinyl version instead.
Dok Lorenz
What about Iron Maiden's "Dance Of Death"? I don't know how bad it is compared to the other albums mentioned here, but I still think it is bad. What do you folks think?
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242757"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can't say as i've not brought the album yet, but since I have all the early albums I wanted upto Fear Of The Dark [exc. live ones] I'm happy with what i got since i more of the old stuff they did.
Dok Lorenz
Their 2004 EP, Feedback is perhaps a hair bit better, but I'd say that it sounds pretty similar in terms of production/mastering to Vapor Trails. So, the trend continues
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242733"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I might have ears of tin now, thanks to all of that heavy metal in the 80s, but I didn't think Feedback was nearly as bad as Vapor Trails. I've only listened to it once or twice though and there was background noise.
I just don't get it with Rush...they must know that no one is pleased with the mastering on their albums and yet nothing changes.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242792"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Blame Atlantic....
I can't believe nobody mentioned St. Anger by Metallica yet. The drums sound like garbage cans, the guitars sound completely over-processed and very muddy, and all dynamic range is squashed. It's by far my worst-sounding CD.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242826"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suggest getting the release that includes the DVD where they play the album live in the practice room, and making yourself an audio CD of that. Lars plays a much less awkwardly-tuned drumset and it's an overall better sound.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242848"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
After my first listen of St. Anger, threw the dvd and and was amazed at how much better this sounded. Made a nice little audio cd out it, and that's all I've ever listened too.
There was a parody of St. Anger going around on the 'net for a while. The funniest part of it was the picture that went along with it showing a metal folding chair miced up and used for the "snare drum" sound. =D
Hi, for me this is the worst mastered album:
LENNY KRAVITZ - Greatest Hits
Dynamic range is extremely low, and the sound is very distorted.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242859"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I only heard one track from that one, the new song "Again", and the distortion is awful. If you're saying they did that to all of the tracks, that CD would get my vote as well.
The worst one I own is "Honkin' on Bobo" by Aerosmith. I was realy happy to see it on the shelves because I think it is a good idea, but it is so loud and poorly mixed that I can't listen to it. There is no texture to the music at all. It just sounds like a wall of noise.
Anybody want it?
I have to agree in regards to Nevermore-Enemies of Reality. The album sounds like it was encoded with old school Xing mp3 and copied back to cd, i couldn't believe how bad it sounded when i heard it.
Metallica-And justice for all was an album that could've been done better, the bass is completely clobbered in that album, of course from what i hear its because the bassists wasn't present during post-production.
How about most old school black metal, Immortal coming to mind for there first 3 or 4 albums.
Flotsam and Jetsam - No place for disgruise, could use some work.
Emperor - Into the nigthside eclipse, such a shame, its so good
Covenant of Norway - In times before light, atleast until they re-released it
the list goes on....
I would like to add 2 albums to this horror show:
The Strokes - "Room on Fire": clipping, compressed to death => unlistenable
Oasis - "(What's the Story) Morning Glory": an early example (1995) of how to ruin music; very tiring "wall of sound"-sound .
Their 2004 EP, Feedback is perhaps a hair bit better, but I'd say that it sounds pretty similar in terms of production/mastering to Vapor Trails. So, the trend continues
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242733"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think there's a qualitative difference between the two albums.
Vapor Trails sounds like a mistake--there's audible clipping and the 'dynamics' don't bear much relationship to the music.
Feedback, however, is just intentionally loud--the dynamics have all been squashed, but there's little clipping and the loudness bears a relationship to the music.
Feedback is still particularly fatiguing to listen to, but at least it sounds intentional.
Metallica-And justice for all was an album that could've been done better, the bass is completely clobbered in that album, of course from what i hear its because the bassists wasn't present during post-production.
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It could be been done better but on my current system I find it quite listenable (I love the album as a whole). It was hard work to listen to on my older (cheaper) system.
Oasis - "(What's the Story) Morning Glory": an early example (1995) of how to ruin music; very tiring "wall of sound"-sound .
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242897"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There was a documentary on the making of Definitely Maybe in the UK a few weeks ago. The producer was interviewed and claimed he was one of the first to completely ruin the dynamics of a CD and push everything into the red and seemed to be proud of that fact.
Hi, for me this is the worst mastered album:
LENNY KRAVITZ - Greatest Hits
Dynamic range is extremely low, and the sound is very distorted.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242859"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I didn’t realise until I bought the original 1993 Album Are You Gonna Go My way at the weekend and compared the title track. On the Greatest Hits the guitar doesn’t sound the same; the notes are a blurred mush. I have now ordered all his early CDs and may make my own version of Lenny’s Greatest Hits using these.
I thought Morcheeba Parts of the Process sounded flat and compressed. Probably OK in a noisy bar.
I also noticed they even try to Remaster full digital recordings from the 80s and 90s. MJ Bad and Madonna Like a Virgin were 16bit Digital recordings. I can’t see them squeezing anything more out of these tapes. I guess they just put them through a compressor and or turn the treble up.
Another DDD CD is Original Dire Straits Brothers in Arms. I prefer this to the Remastered as it has more life even if its slightly too bright (I sometimes turn the treble down 1 click on this CD). The remastered 1996 CD sounds like a noise reduced analogue tape. Am I the only one who prefers the original?
holy resurrected thread, batman!
...that is a pretty cool idea, tho, to make your own master of a best-of album using original releases (although, that could be pricey $$$ )
later
Is there anyone who has a copy of Jack Johnson -In Between Dreams? I haven't checked the RG value for this album, but it has to be the LOUDEST album I've ever listened to?...If anyone has it, could you post the value, thanks
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication would have to be the worst mastered CD as far as volume goes for me. It clips like crazy and is way too loud.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242752"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was gonna say the same... such a shame cause the songs are amazing... but the clipping is so bad I returned the album!!! no joking
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication would have to be the worst mastered CD as far as volume goes for me. It clips like crazy and is way too loud.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=242752"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was gonna say the same... such a shame cause the songs are amazing... but the clipping is so bad I returned the album!!! no joking
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=320568"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Cool! What did you say? And how did they respond?
Interpol - Antics
Some tracks have -12dB w/ replaygain and just sound awful compared to hearing them live.
-Joe
Staind - Break the Cycle
Garbage - Bleed Like Me. It's so compressed and so badly mastered that I had to check my cable connections because I thought I was getting only mono audio... Album gain: -11.78 dB. Track gains: from -7.1 dB to -13.2 dB.
I also have to add Lemon Jelly - '64-'95. Not only is it compressed, it also sounds like it was mastered with 96 kbps MP3 samples.
while talking about all those bad mastered albums i want recommend you some healing for your ears: Thomas Newman - Road To Perdition Soundtrack
albumRG level: -1,86db
well recorded
good dynamics
sounds stereo and not mono like many albums these days do
Sleater-Kinney, "The Woods": Album gain is -13 db, and the album peak is 1.31. When foobar is set to scale down tracks that clip after replaygain it gets even more reduction.
This is actually the first album I've bought that has this kind of extreme compression... I don't buy much "mainstream" rock. It's ugly; I can't listen to it with headphones. On speakers it isn't as bad.
The funny thing is that I think this was another one of those "conscious choice" things, because there is a heavy layer of distortion on even the quiet parts. I'm sad though, I like them because there are so few girls doing real rock, and it's a shame that her voice gets so distorted.
My Chemical Romance - Three Cheers For Sweet Revenge definitely does not sound all that great, sounds very flat, especially compared to hearing them live. Kind of a shame really since their first CD sounds a hell of a lot better and is not nearly as loud.
RHCP Californication is horrible, Oasis Morning Glory is pretty bad, Powerman 5000 - Transform is pretty loud and distorted, Slipknot Vol 3, most of System of a Down's stuff... the list goes on and on.
Its too bad artists are ruined by poor mastering.
My wife bought Avril Lavigne's album "Under My Skin" recently. Easily takes top spot in our collection, lot's of clipping and distortion.
Is there anyone who has a copy of Jack Johnson -In Between Dreams? I haven't checked the RG value for this album, but it has to be the LOUDEST album I've ever listened to?...If anyone has it, could you post the value, thanks
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Jack Johnson's albums:
AG -5.29 dB: Brushfire Fairytales (2002)
AG -7.93 dB: On And On (2003)
AG -6.85 dB: In Between Dreams (2005)
So his latest album really isn't that bad compared to many new albums, or even his previous ones.
My pet hate in the loudness race is remastering destroying the sound of older albums.
This has become so bad, that I'm now wondering if there are any newer releases from mainstream artists that aren't clipped or over-compressed.
That could be the topic of a very short thread.
The newest release I've heard that was recorded and mastered by people who took pride in their work is Five For Fighting, "America Town" in 2000.
Sleater-Kinney, "The Woods": Album gain is -13 db, and the album peak is 1.31. When foobar is set to scale down tracks that clip after replaygain it gets even more reduction.
This is actually the first album I've bought that has this kind of extreme compression... I don't buy much "mainstream" rock. It's ugly; I can't listen to it with headphones. On speakers it isn't as bad.
The funny thing is that I think this was another one of those "conscious choice" things, because there is a heavy layer of distortion on even the quiet parts. I'm sad though, I like them because there are so few girls doing real rock, and it's a shame that her voice gets so distorted.
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Yeah this is true. The distortion is really bad. But it's an amazing record nontheless. I kinda just accepted it and listened to the rockingness. All I did was imagine that they did it for artistic effect. Or something stupid to that effect. But I can enjoy it at least.
I do the same with pretty much everything I listen to though, so I guess that doesn't count for much.
Gwen Stefani's latest, whatever its called?
System of a Down - Mezmerize
AG: -11.6
especially on "Radio/Video" you can very easily hear clipping....
Tie:
Audioslave - Audioslave
Rush - Vapor Trails
...Vapor Trials was easily the worst mastered album of 2002. Their albums have always tended to be poorly mastered but Vapor Trails was a new low.
Their 2004 EP, Feedback is perhaps a hair bit better, but I'd say that it sounds pretty similar in terms of production/mastering to Vapor Trails. So, the trend continues
I'd say that
Rush In Rio worse than
Vapor Trails and
Feedback... so, yes - the trend continues.
Other recent "dis-honorable mentions":
The Mars Volta -
Frances The Mute (2005);
Deloused In The Comatorium (2003)
Owsley -
The Hard Way (2003)
Prince -
Musicology (2004)
U2 -
How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb (2004)
Audioslave -
Out Of Exile (2005)
the list could go on and on...........
Staind - Break the Cycle
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Agreed.
For You has such an annoying clipping and distortion, what makes it worse is that it starts right after a track with a soft ending and then the distorted guitar comes in and nearly breaks your ear.
Fozzy - All that remains (2005)
Album gain: -10.50 db
Very scratchy, crowded, annoying with headphones. Songs are not bad at all. Shame.
Immediately coming to mind are:
Audioslave - Audioslave
RHCP - Californication
Queens of the Stone Age - Songs for the Deaf
Metallica - St. Anger
and Pearl Jam's Binaural sounds pretty bad, but for different reasons.
Audioslave - Audioslave
But at least Like a Stone is a really good song and sounds wayyyy better than the rest of the songs.
Slayer - South of Heaven (remastered @199x-200x)
Maybe not the worst, but harsh treble and obvious artifacts. Ex: the bass drum in the first track makes the other instruments "breathe" because of over-compression.
P.S. I just ordered a used copy of the 1988 version for 2 bucks More on this later
Prince - Musicology. Replaygain values are ~ -10 dB throughout.
When It Falls - Zero 7
This is supposed to be chillout music, but thanks to the overcompression is anything but. I regret buying this. Unfortunately I bought it at a store closing, so can't even return it.
-Rajas
I'm shocked that my old 11 month old post has recently generated some vigourous discussion, I should be honored but since I dont have golden ears and unfortunatley I dont have the time to really find out what a badly masterered CD sounds like or how to abx etc etc but my philosophy is if it sounds good to my ears then is doesnt matter too much wot setting i use, unless i did illegal sharing [as if, why share decent rips with muppets that cant be arsed to make a decent rip themselves. Also yes its illegal because i'm denying artists [greedy record labels] money but heck i actually buy CD's but if i cant rip with my pelxtor[with EAC] its goes back to the shop and i tell em too ]
There is one thing I really appreciate is HA.org because you guys collectively have taught me more in 1yr than anyone can appreciate, I don't always follow exact guidelines but I do follow what's right for me and this is what marks out HA from the rest, I can follow others experiences and use my own judgement [It was one reason i donated]. So keep up the high standards and i'll try not to post something that ends up being discussed 11 months later LOL.
Wow, so its not just me - I can't stand listening to When it Falls, either. It just sounds wrong.
Sleater-Kinney - The Woods is my current favorite example of overcompression. I'm all for fuzz when its supposed to be powerful rock, but this just sticks out as digital clipping. If this was mastered on analog, it probably would have been bearable. Its sad, wonderful album at that.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Radiohead - Hail to the Thief. I've had people argue both ways with me, but to me, I can't stand the lack of dynamics in 2+2=5 especially. The drums might as well be tin cans.
Iron Maiden "A Real Live One." Even fans think it sounds awful.
Other recent "dis-honorable mentions":
U2 - How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb (2004)
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Wow this a Recording Of The Month in Stereophile!!! With four stars in sound... Are you sure?
[a href="http://stereophile.com/recordingofthemonth/205rotm/]Check this[/url]
Well, is your opinion, I would also add REM's Reveal maybe for the antipiracy system they used...
I should be honored but since I dont have golden ears and unfortunatley I dont have the time to really find out what a badly masterered CD sounds like or how to abx etc etc
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Just for educational reasons, describe your sound system. You don´t need golden ears to know what a bad sounding record is, specially if you hear a good one first...
Well, is your opinion, I would also add REM's Reveal maybe for the antipiracy system they used...
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What kind of antipiracy system? I have that album too and succesfully ripped it with EAC.
edit: By the way, I'm listening to U2's
How to dismantle.. again and I agree with esa372 that it is over-compressed and I think I hear clipping in the last part of Miracle Drug for example. This album is a great example of a good mix, recording and performance that is harmed in the mastering stage.
Hoobastank - The Reason
I gotta give props to Red Hot Chili Peppers' Californication CD.
Parallel Universe is just horrendous, not to mention the distorted pops and clicks that seem to be everywhere on the album.
Other recent "dis-honorable mentions":
U2 - How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb (2004)
Wow this a Recording Of The Month in Stereophile!!! With four stars in sound... Are you sure?
Check this (http://stereophile.com/recordingofthemonth/205rotm/)
I didn't find the four stars, but this was in the body of the text:
Producer Steve Lillywhite and a bevy of engineers have labored to give this disc's sound the kinds of space and detail that are rare in rock records.
Hmmm.... "space and detail", eh? They must be listening to a different pressing than the one I have!
Waveform of
Vertigo:
(http://66.49.140.133/assets/ha/vertigo01.png)
Smashy, smashy!
(http://66.49.140.133/assets/ha/vertigo02.png)
This album is a great example of a good mix, recording and performance that is harmed in the mastering stage.
This is what happens so often these days... A good band makes a good recording of good music, only to have it sonically brutalized by the mastering process.
Ah, well... sign 'o' the times...
probably the worst mastered album I have:
Oasis - What's the story morning glory? (obviously a remaster) -12.52dB album gain
the cliipping is so scratchy and harsh, its unlistenable in a few areas, particularly the title track, morning glory, with a whopping -13.03dB reduction
Have you ever heard new album of Limp Bizkit (The Unquestionable Truth Part I)? This is the worst remastered album, that I ever heard. It sounds like it was remastered from very low quality mp3 (like 96kbps).
Other are Metallica - St.Anger, Slipknot - The Sublimal Verses, first album of System Of A Down.
probably the worst mastered album I have:
Oasis - What's the story morning glory? (obviously a remaster) -12.52dB album gain
the cliipping is so scratchy and harsh, its unlistenable in a few areas, particularly the title track, morning glory, with a whopping -13.03dB reduction
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Indeed, when I bought that album (I was 15 years old or so) I noticed these weird distortions through the entire album. I didn't know about clipping, compressing and limiting back then.
edit:
What's the Story.. is probably the worst mastered CD I have in my collection.
I have to add Faith No More - King for a Day Fool For a Lifetime. It's especially easy to hear in second track (Ricochet). Another Static-X's new album - Start A War. I'm not sure of it, because I have this album only on mp3 230-250VBR, but I can hear that there is no high frequency (like 18khz) and high frequency are disorted.
edit: i forgot to add Smashing Pumpking Greatest Hits. There is small amount high frequency (sounds like on crappy stereo) and without dynamics. Many songs are clipped.
Now this is some serious clipping, Laura Pausini - Viveme (https://lsc.fie.umich.mx/~legg/audio/clipping.mp3) (https 'cause the uni will block mp3 transfers ), the song belongs to this album (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006419R8/qid=1124560313/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7938035-5125625?v=glance&s=music&n=507846). The thing that shocked me the most is that instruments are not the problem, is her voice that's clipping.
Disclaimer: I do not own the original CD and have no way of really prove the source clips. I decided not to buy it after listening to several different mp3s at different bitrates that had the clipping, which leads me to the conclusion that the source is in fact clipping.
I somehow fail to hear the clipping on that single piece. How can it be distinguished?
The most annoying are:
from 7 to 9 seconds and from 18 to 21 seconds. Listen to her voice, and how it distorts badly.
Now this is some serious clipping, Laura Pausini - Viveme (https://lsc.fie.umich.mx/~legg/audio/clipping.mp3) (https 'cause the uni will block mp3 transfers ), the song belongs to this album (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006419R8/qid=1124560313/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7938035-5125625?v=glance&s=music&n=507846). The thing that shocked me the most is that instruments are not the problem, is her voice that's clipping.
Disclaimer: I do not own the original CD and have no way of really prove the source clips. I decided not to buy it after listening to several different mp3s at different bitrates that had the clipping, which leads me to the conclusion that the source is in fact clipping.
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Wow
This one is really awful .
I think a misuderstanding is prevalent in this thread. Several albums mentioned, namely those by Oasis and The Strokes are purposely pushed to the limit and beyond with gain, compressed vocals, etc. This is evidenced easily merely by listening to the voices; Liam Gallagher's voice certainly has some grit with or without compression, but the effect only improves upon his strength, and the same is true for Julian Casablancas. The "problems" with these CD's are not due to faulty mastering, they are very much intentional, and, to my ears, desireable.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Radiohead - Hail to the Thief. I've had people argue both ways with me, but to me, I can't stand the lack of dynamics in 2+2=5 especially. The drums might as well be tin cans.
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That one's a weird one, actually. For one, I wish I could get my hands on one of those pre-mastered acetates of the thing (check radioheadcds.com), as the pre-release tracks that leaked often sounded a bit better (barring the MP3 compression) than the versions on the actual album. Additionally--and I'm not around my CD to check my recollection here--I think some songs may be worse than others. IIRC, "We Suck Young Blood" had a lot of dynamic range.
I can't believe nobody mentioned St. Anger by Metallica yet. The drums sound like garbage cans
lol thats exactly how I described it when I first heard it
Green Day - Insomniac always seemed very loud to me
I think a misuderstanding is prevalent in this thread. Several albums mentioned, namely those by Oasis and The Strokes are purposely pushed to the limit and beyond with gain, compressed vocals, etc.
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Maybe the distortions are intentional, but in the case of Oasis I really don't like them (especially the distortion on the drums). I don't know if it is digital clipping, a choking compressor/limiter or otherwise, but I think it's awfull.
So, I don't think there's a misunderstandig here. Of course a lot of rock & roll bands try to emulate old tape distortions and saturation with their sound, and that's fine, but in the case of What's the story.. I think it's just too much.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Radiohead - Hail to the Thief. I've had people argue both ways with me, but to me, I can't stand the lack of dynamics in 2+2=5 especially. The drums might as well be tin cans.
That's an example of an album where I can live with the intentional reduced dynamics, I think it is part of their sound. Even distortion sounds good when it's made by Radiohead
I can't believe nobody mentioned St. Anger by Metallica yet. The drums sound like garbage cans
lol thats exactly how I described it when I first heard it
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That specific drum sound has nothing to do with the final mastering, but with the tuning of the snare drum.
Texas Is The Reason
the songs themselves are great, but the sound quality just sux.
Green Day - Insomniac always seemed very loud to me
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It is loud, but I think they didn't go overboard with it. I always thought that album was done pretty well for a punk record. It doesn't make my ears bleed when I listen to them and you can actually hear the vocals, guitar, bass, AND drums without difficulty.
Regarding What's the Story...
I get an album gain of -9.00, but the album's hard limited at -3 db. Normalizing would give a replaygain of around -12. I guess they realized if they normalized, the CD would be way too hot for 1995 standards, so they decided to just not use the top 25% of the 16 bit sample range. This tells us that the mastering decision was made to achieve a certain sound, and not for absolute loudness.
Of course, many people think that sound absolutely sucks.
Noel himself said in an interview this spring that he doesn't like the sound of Definitely Maybe or What's the Story any more. "Trebly" he called them... heh... that's not the worst of the problems, mate.
Dream Theater. I've not seen anyone mention their stuff yet, which maybe means that not many people listen to them. A prog-metal band who prides themselves on their technical proficiency (deservedly so, though many of their songs seem written to show off that proficiency). But many of their albums are mastered really loud.
The worst-sounding of them all is 1997's "Falling Into Infinity". The album gain is around 8.5 if I remember correctly, so not extremely loud compared to other hard rock, but the sound is so obviously compressed, very badly. It can be a pain to listen to on a number of songs, which isn't true for msot of their other albums, even other ones that are mastered just as loud or louder. It's really a curious thing for a band who likes to think of themselves as appealing to audiophiles.
The "problems" with these CD's are not due to faulty mastering, they are very much intentional...
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The problem is that
all of this "faulty mastering" is intentional. I believe all of the aforementioned CDs sound exactly the way they were intended to sound.
Dream Theater. I've not seen anyone mention their stuff yet, which maybe means that not many people listen to them. A prog-metal band who prides themselves on their technical proficiency (deservedly so, though many of their songs seem written to show off that proficiency). But many of their albums are mastered really loud.
The worst-sounding of them all is 1997's "Falling Into Infinity". The album gain is around 8.5 if I remember correctly, so not extremely loud compared to other hard rock, but the sound is so obviously compressed, very badly. It can be a pain to listen to on a number of songs, which isn't true for msot of their other albums, even other ones that are mastered just as loud or louder. It's really a curious thing for a band who likes to think of themselves as appealing to audiophiles.
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I disagree. Loud, yes, but some of their stuff I use for reference material (granted older than new). ToT and Octavarium are quite loud. However, IaW and SFaM are wonderfully mastered and rather high up there on my list. I wouldn't know about FII.
The problem is that all of this "faulty mastering" is intentional. I believe all of the aforementioned CDs sound exactly the way they were intended to sound.
Intended by the engineers, artists, labels, all? I don't think all of the artists intended them to sound this compressed, but probably don't have much of a say due to contracts.
The only benficial result of this topic(besides avoiding particular CDs if the reader is so inclined) would be to find out exactly why specific CDs sound the way they do. I have, I believe, made it clear that Oasis and Strokes albums have been recorded to sound the way they do. It is senseless to gripe about the way the music's authors decide to record it. It is reasonabe and possibly beneficial to complain if a record is ill-mastered by a careless or meddling engineer. Certainly the majority of problem records have this to blame. So, does anyone know if CDs mentioned earlier(Californication is an infamous example) have the former or the latter to blame? Record companies will listen to consumer complaints if they are given the right way. Audio enthusiasts are only increasing in number and, thanks to websites like this one, knowledge; one thing is certain: we want audio quality. MP3 popularity, in a way, has helped consumers in general by familiarizing us with bitrates, sample rates, etc., even though it has(in general) lessend our listening experience. Is there some sort of group that listens to and reviews CDs with an ear for their mastering quality? If a particular company has a reputation for poor discs, they should be told so by consumers like us(I hope . . .) who regard such releases with the utmost of disdain. They are businesspeople; if a few dollars more in mastering expenses will make them more sales, they'll bite. They just need to be convinced of the demand.
I have never been able to sit through St. Anger. Its ugly and in a bad way not an artistic one.
I have never been able to sit through St. Anger. Its ugly and in a bad way not an artistic one.
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I still haven't sit through even one song on that album.
I have never been able to sit through St. Anger. Its ugly and in a bad way not an artistic one.
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You're just no friend of trash cans.
Last week I borrowed the CD "Eagles - Hotel California", a new digitally remasterd CD transfer. (www.warnerremasters.com is printed on an adhesive label on the CD)
The CD sounds ugly overcompressed to my ears.
Replay Gain confirms my claim. An Album Gain of -7,5 dB is quite a high value for a rock album which was originally recorded in 1976.
I've gotta chime in about Oasis here. Number one, that is most definitely the sound they want. On the Definitely Maybe DVD they actually claim that the producer or whoever it was is the first one to do 'brick wall' mastering, which works beautifully on that album.
Another thing i see alot in this thread is people complaining about the distortion and guitars making your ears bleed on a rock album. YES! Thats what its all about.
It brings me to What's the Story Morning Glory, and the dynamics that DO exist on that album. I will never forget, I bought that cd, like so many other people, for Wonderwall when it came out. I will never forget putting it in, hitting play, and hearing much to my surprise, Wonderwall as track one, only really quiet. So I turned it up really loud to what sounded right and then that BLIP BLIP followed by the wall of Marshalls from Hello completely blew me away, and I had just cranked it. Leave it up that loud. That is beautiful in my opinion.
edit: to make this post on topic, I do think Heathen Chemistry from Oasis is mastered pretty bad.
I'd imagine there's a few Depeche Mode fans here, yes? Well if you haven't bought their new album already, think twice. I wish I'd saved my money. I've read a lot about over-compression but never really appreciated what a negative effect it can have until I listened to Playing The Angel. It just sounded flat from beginning to end. Being used to previous albums such as Violator or Black Celebration soothing my audio senses, I wasn't prepared for what was about to be inflicted on my ear drums. To say I was disappointed is an understatement.
There's digital clipping within the first second of track 5, Precious (released as first single from album)...
[a href="http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=depecheprecious0013ys.jpg" target="_blank"]
I'd imagine there's a few Depeche Mode fans here, yes? Well if you haven't bought their new album already, think twice. I wish I'd saved my money. I've read a lot about over-compression but never really appreciated what a negative effect it can have until I listened to Playing The Angel. It just sounded flat from beginning to end. Being used to previous albums such as Violator or Black Celebration soothing my audio senses, I wasn't prepared for what was about to be inflicted on my ear drums. To say I was disappointed is an understatement.
There's digital clipping within the first second of track 5, Precious (released as first single from album)...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=335805"][{POST_SNAPBACK}] (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=depecheprecious0013ys.jpg)
Wow...pretty ugly.
Dream Theater. I've not seen anyone mention their stuff yet, which maybe means that not many people listen to them. A prog-metal band who prides themselves on their technical proficiency (deservedly so, though many of their songs seem written to show off that proficiency). But many of their albums are mastered really loud.
The worst-sounding of them all is 1997's "Falling Into Infinity". The album gain is around 8.5 if I remember correctly, so not extremely loud compared to other hard rock, but the sound is so obviously compressed, very badly. It can be a pain to listen to on a number of songs, which isn't true for msot of their other albums, even other ones that are mastered just as loud or louder. It's really a curious thing for a band who likes to think of themselves as appealing to audiophiles.
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replaygain_album_gain = -9.70 dB for Falling Into Infinity. It's actually louder than any of their newer ones, which are also too loud. The music's good though so I do my best to overlook it I suppose.
Uh well I listen to a lot of progressive metal and a lot of it is newer so a lot of it is mastered too loud anyway. Not sure of any particular one that sounds worst.
Have you ever heard new album of Limp Bizkit (The Unquestionable Truth Part I)? This is the worst remastered album, that I ever heard. It sounds like it was remastered from very low quality mp3 (like 96kbps).
Other are Metallica - St.Anger, Slipknot - The Sublimal Verses, first album of System Of A Down.
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I had a roomate who downloaded that song, i thought it was some crappy 96kbps encode or something, but thats how it sounds on the CD...
im no audiophile like the other people on this site, but i just recently listened to metallica - 'and justice for all' again. that album is a production debacle. the guitars are thin, there are no dynamics, the bass guitar doesn't exist, and the drums have little kick. just the sound of the album gets tiresome after a while. couple that with songs that are too long, and justice is one of the most boring, hard-to-listen-to albums i own. the songs are good on an individual basis, but to listen to the album the whole way through is a struggle. metallica's first 4 albums (and st. anger) severly need remastered by an expert.
Yeah, metallica - st anger. All instruments were recordered all in one (in live). Original CD sound like SBR 80 kbit AAC. Some new bands have no money to record their first CD at high quality and may be audio tecs of 80´s weren´t good but metallica has made a lot of tours in America and Europe during 20 years. Producer of Metallica Bob Rock was a bass player and man who mixed all material at the same time. . Bad job.
My "newest" badest release is Anita Baker's "My Everything", distorts all the way through. Very unusual for a "jazz"-album.
(http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=23534293&s=143456&i=23534275)
im no audiophile like the other people on this site, but i just recently listened to metallica - 'and justice for all' again. that album is a production debacle. the guitars are thin, there are no dynamics, the bass guitar doesn't exist, and the drums have little kick. just the sound of the album gets tiresome after a while. couple that with songs that are too long, and justice is one of the most boring, hard-to-listen-to albums i own. the songs are good on an individual basis, but to listen to the album the whole way through is a struggle. metallica's first 4 albums (and st. anger) severly need remastered by an expert.
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Really? are you sure you didn't get a remastered version?
Over here it sounds just fine, in fact I think the sound is quite clear. The drums do sound with little kick if compared to current
beat recordings, other than that I believe that's the sound they intended.
About the length of the songs I too think it is fine, as long as they are fine songs that do not fall into the repeat over and over again the same shit, just try to imagine listening a 5 minute song by Britney Spears!!, much less listening to epic songs like Estranged (GNR) or Orion (Metallica).
Just my 0.02
Type O Negative -- October Rust
Remy Zero -- Golden Hum (love the album but it's badly mastered and overproduced)
Suede -- Dog Man Star (also like it, but it doesn't exactly sparkle sound-wise)
I had one that stands out from fifteen years ago (I was a youngish teenager): the self-titled Firehouse album -- it had exceptionally awful production, even to someone who didn't know what the word meant.
There are albums that have *weak* production, but it's not necessarily compressed/clipped production. High compression is just frustrating...
check out Finedisc, they don't have much content but want members to tell them what they want remastered. Free to join too. They say if they get lots of requests they will try and get permission to remaster .
some local band (no idea who did the mastering job), sounds horrible in more than one sense (track RG is tipically -20 dB).
Sleater-Kinney, "The Woods": [...]
This is actually the first album I've bought that has this kind of extreme compression... I don't buy much "mainstream" rock. It's ugly; I can't listen to it with headphones. On speakers it isn't as bad.
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Yeah this is true. The distortion is really bad. But it's an amazing record nontheless. I kinda just accepted it and listened to the rockingness. All I did was imagine that they did it for artistic effect. Or something stupid to that effect. But I can enjoy it at least.
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Sadly I can't stand it because of the sound. I really like Sleater-Kinney, but I don't think I have listened to "The Woods" more than twice.
It was produced by Flaming Lips' Dave Fridmann, and it really hurts to see these people comitting such horrible crimes.
I'd imagine there's a few Depeche Mode fans here, yes? Well if you haven't bought their new album already, think twice. I wish I'd saved my money. I've read a lot about over-compression but never really appreciated what a negative effect it can have until I listened to Playing The Angel.
ugh, i second that one too. what a letdown. rush, as previously discussed - vapor trails has some okay songs on it but everything is so smashed
one album i haven't seen mentioned is Keane - Hopes and Fears ... being a piano based band one would at least have some small hope there'd be some dynamics in the record, but nope, it's a complete 2x4 when viewed in an audio editor.
sucks that label management and the people pushing the money are the ones who decide how it sounds, in the end. as an avid music fan and audio engineer myself, just like everyone here i'd love to see dynamics come back into music, but all the labels care about is selling more records to kids picking up the latest my chemical romance album, or what have you. clipping is trendy!
i'd say "it can only get worse" but at this point mix engineers might as well just put the master section through a distortion box and have it overwith.
I'd like to add the Megadeth Remaster of "Youthanasia". It just sounds totally bad. I wish they'd just kept the original sound. Another thing is the EMI copyprotection, but that doesn't belong here.
You should definitely hear it before buying it.
Cheers
micmac
...sucks that label management and the people pushing the money are the ones who decide how it sounds, in the end. as an avid music fan and audio engineer myself, just like everyone here i'd love to see dynamics come back into music, but all the labels care about is selling more records to kids picking up the latest my chemical romance album, or what have you. clipping is trendy!
I posted about this on a Depeche Mode forum, along with this LINK (http://brianstagg.co.uk/p_t_a_clipressed/) but it seemed like many of the their fans, having been starved of new material, were delighted with the album. They couldn't hear or see (looking at the flattened waveforms) anything wrong, and were excusing it as deliberate....apparently DM were going for a new harder sound, the clipping was 'intentional' distortion! Real cutting edge stuff If the masses can't appreciate what they loose through squashed dynamics the situation can only get worse. It's becoming essential to audition new music - even if it's by a favourite artist - just to ensure the recording is of a quality worth paying for. Or at least keep the receipt....the CD will probably be copy 'protected' and you can claim it won't play on your system
worst in my personal collection is Evanescence - Fallen
"Bring me to life" clicks and pops almost like it was recorded from a crappy MP3
"My Immortal" has lots of background distortion
Other than that, all my Staind albums disappoint me, along with SOAD Toxicity and Mesmerize
anything by the offspring(come on for the most part the cd's listed have nothing on the crap sound on the offsprings albums)
worst offenders are ixnay on the hombre and smash, but the older self titled and ignition albums are rather crap aswell(but they were tiny tiny releases). Their newer stuff is kinda better sounding but not by all that much, but ofcourse the new songs are just crappy songs anyways.
I updated my article, to show a comparison between the CD and vinyl editions of same album...
p_t_a_clipressed (http://brianstagg.co.uk/p_t_a_clipressed/)
thats why i think we should support this new company Finedisc. They tell me if their members request a remaster of a CD and there is enough interest they will look to do a remaster version... but they need to know it will be worth the time and effort to do it. so lets join them and support this and get CD's we want to hear in good qualityformat.
http://www.finedisc.com/ (http://www.finedisc.com/)
By reading the first page of their site, I'm not too convince. Basically they make is sound like they are leaving out the mastering phase all together. This is NOT a good thing.
Yeah, it
sounds reads to good to be true. They describe it as some sort of magical one-pass DSP that will remaster a finished recording. Ain't gonna happen. Maybe they can slightly 'enhance' a recording, but...
The improvements you hear on a FINEDISC CD such as 'live-like' ambience, deeper sub-basses, warmer mid-tones, crisp, clear highs ... were all in fact generated naturally, from within the original signal, recorded at source. They were always there. The FINEDISC FORMAT digs them out to reveal a more defined separation of instrumentation, clearer vocals, enhanced outlines, and an improved 3D feel.
The type of blurb you'd expect from an
audiophile snake oil salesman But they do say "Hearing is Believing!" so perhaps I'm just being too cynical.
There are CD's that are just loud, but the
Guilty Gear XX soundtrack is an example of a CD (well, in this case two CDs) mastered in so many wrong ways. It's obvious that there was no actual work done at all when transferring the songs from the game to two CDs, as not only are the tracks still in the order they appear in the sound test with no regards to arranging them in an album-listening fashion making a large portion of them flow extremely awkwardly with each other (it's so bad I have to re-arrange the tracks in order to listen to it all the way through), but the volume levels fluctuate all over the place (something which shouldn't be happening in-game either). And the louder ones are, as you might have guessed, too loud. Looking at the waveform it's obvious there was no limiting or compression done at all; the tracks just hard clip (like on quite a few other CDs, see: Manowar -
Louder than Hell). On some songs (notably "Momentary Life" (Baiken) and "Suck a Sage" (Chipp Zanuff)) the clipping is so frequent you can hear audible crackling in the sound. To make matters worse, they often max out way below full-scale, making the effect even more severe.
Here's some auravisual picks from the CD's worst offender, Biaken's stage (click the image to see the full, vile shot):
(http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/images/ggx_baikenstage_clip1_thumb.png) (http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/images/ggx_baikenstage_clip1_full.png) (http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/images/ggx_baikenstage_clip2_thumb.png) (http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/images/ggx_baikenstage_clip2_full.png) (http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/images/ggx_baikenstage_clip3_thumb.png) (http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/images/ggx_baikenstage_clip3_full.png)
30 second sound sample (listen closely!) (http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/audio/ggxx_baikenstage_distortion.mp3)
Obligatory ReplayGain stats:
Title: Peak: Gain:
------------------------------------------------- --------- ------
[101] Feedback.mp3 33543.979 -8.6
[102] Noontide.mp3 34340.864 -9.44
[103] Keep Yourself Alive 2.mp3 34241.544 -10.57
[104] Holy Orders (Be Just or Be Dead).mp3 34526.331 -10.4
[105] Blue Water Blue Sky.mp3 35044.196 -10.54
[106] Writhe in Pain.mp3 34346.009 -8.78
[107] Feel a Fear.mp3 33930.412 -9.56
[108] Burly Heart.mp3 37855.887 -9.96
[109] Suck a Sage.mp3 34358.231 -10.79
[110] The Original.mp3 34268.414 -8.42
[111] Make Oneself.mp3 34814.427 -10.93
[112] Momentary Life.mp3 34807.841 -10.38
[113] Fuuga.mp3 33969.504 -9.98
[114] A Solitude that Asks Nothing in Return.mp3 35024.83 -8.97
[115] Liquor Bar & Drunkard.mp3 33098.531 -8.9
[116] Babel Nose.mp3 34071.478 -9.34
[117] Bloodstained Lineage.mp3 34811.38 -8.39
[201] Awe of She.mp3 33897.087 -10.17
[202] A Simple Life.mp3 35326.296 -8.65
[203] Havent you got Eyes in Your Head.mp3 33755.103 -8.18
[204] Good Manners and Customs.mp3 33995.424 -8.89
[205] Kagematuri (Dark Ritual).mp3 32568.771 -8.93
[206] Nothing Out of the Ordinary.mp3 33319.78 -7.96
[207] Existence.mp3 33555.808 -7.32
[208] The Midnight Carnival.mp3 33101.316 -7.05
[209] Till Next Time.mp 33998.635 -8.68
[210] Boom Town Blues.mp3 35396.616 -7.44
[211] Missing.mp3 29995.172 -4.31
[212] D.O.A.mp3 33101.84 -6.41
[213] VS.mp3 31728.402 -8.44
[214] GO FOR IT!!!.mp3 30963.466 -8.18
[215] Game Over.mp3 30494.458 -7.69
[216] Pride and Glory.mp3 32489.964 -6.9
[217] Meet Again.mp3 26880.967 -7.41
[218] Primal Light.mp3 30898.323 -6.34
[219] Calm Passion.mp3 30742.249 -6.81
[220] Walk in the Dust.mp3 26647.069 -2.05
Album Gain: -9.74
Again, note the major discrepancies in gain values considering that most of the tracks are similar in arrangement, and that some of the more intense tracks ("The Midnight Carnival", "Meet Again") have absurdly low gain values in comparison to other tracks.
A completely abysmal rush job. A great game like GGXX deserves better than this.
FAKE EDIT: Also take note that the last three tracks are remixed versions of the ending music tracks from
Guilty Gear X, none of which appear in GGXX itself, gameplay or sound test. While this is a nice treat in itself, mysteriously enough three story mode-exclusive tracks ("Fatal Duel", "No Mercy" and "Still in the Dark") that DO appear in the gameplay and the sound test (though in their original, non-remixed GGX forms) are absent from the OST, despite there being plenty enough space left on both discs to hold them.
EDIT: For an audible example of the OST's severe track volume discrepancies I made two clips from the game's battle music tracks:
Dizzy stage ("Awe of She") (http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/audio/ggxx_clip_dizzystage.mp3)
I-No stage, Arcade mode final battle ("The Midnight Carnival") (http://kuuenbu.no-ip.org/audio/ggxx_clip_i-no_arcademodefinalbattle.mp3)
EDIT 2: I also forgot to mention the obscenely long silences between all the tracks, like the "mastering engineer" put all the tracks in Nero and didn't bother to remove the preset 2-second pre-track gaps.
Perhaps the worst mastered CD's are Sony/BMG with their hidieous DRM. just a thought
For crushed dynamics
Banco da Gaia: You Are Here (2004)
Porcupine Tree: Deadwing (2005)
Röyksopp: The Understanding (2005)
For bad sound:
Brian Eno: Taking Tiger Mountain by strategy (1974) [even the 2004 remaster is brittle and nasty]
801: Live (1976) [the 1999 remaster was done poorly with uneven track volume and EQ, and an inexcusable master fade chopping off the last climactic seconds of the final song]
new album of korn has a lot of clippings, but dynamics aren't totally squashed.
For crushed dynamics
Porcupine Tree: Deadwing (2005)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=345725"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Buy the DVD-A and rip the 5.1 mix! +1.08 albumgain
new album of korn has a lot of clippings, but dynamics aren't totally squashed.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=345733"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It hasn't been even released yet...
new album of korn has a lot of clippings, but dynamics aren't totally squashed.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=345733"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It hasn't been even released yet...
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=345825"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
but you can download it
Some of the worst mastering i ever heard was done to the song "Wyclef Jean - Industry" from the album "The Preacher's Son". Whenever the bass line comes in, the overall volume decreases for a short moment, like with the peak limiters they use on radio stations. Very unpleasant to listen to, mastering-wise (i like the song!).
One I haven't seen mentioned is Van Halen III. Yeah, the songwriting's not up to par and most people don't care for Gary Cherone, but the production and mastering is just crap. It would be much more listenable if they hadn't killed it in post.
As far as Oasis, I haven't listened to them in years, but I know exactly what people are referring to - and I definitely believe it was intentional, and is part of the appeal... the first track of What's The Story just blows your head back with the aforementioned "wall of sound".
Yeah, Porcupine Tree has some loud albums. I'm going to get both In Absentia and Deadwing on DVD-A to compensate, as they are both award winning masters.
I don't know how many people listen to fantasy/power metal here, but man, those are some compressed CDs. Rhapsody comes to mind. Their CDs have no dynamics whatsoever. Demons & Wizards is bad too with a -10 dB on "Chrimson King." It is such a shame since many of these bands have incredible musicians that would benefit from good recordings.
Yeah, Porcupine Tree has some loud albums. I'm going to get both In Absentia and Deadwing on DVD-A to compensate, as they are both award winning masters.
I don't know how many people listen to fantasy/power metal here, but man, those are some compressed CDs. Rhapsody comes to mind. Their CDs have no dynamics whatsoever. Demons & Wizards is bad too with a -10 dB on "Chrimson King." It is such a shame since many of these bands have incredible musicians that would benefit from good recordings.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=346061"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As I just posted over in the metal topic I think Kamelot's The Black Halo sounds pretty good... but I've never been a big Rhapsody/Dragonforce/Sonata Arctica/anything that's not Kamelot guy.
Edit: On-topic, Cold's 13 Ways to Bleed On Stage is probably the most well-composed nu metal album I've heard (not that that's saying a lot) but its dynamics are home to more squash than my lunch last Thursday and it features the world's first clip-solo.
Edit: I apologize for the squash joke.
Soad's Hypnotize.
AG -11.91db
Totally wasted record. Shame for such a great band.
/edit: Added a screen of Kill Rock'n'Roll
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8357/soadhypnorock9ge.th.jpg) (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soadhypnorock9ge.jpg)
Kyuss - And the Circus Leaves Town
Terrible
God, Hypnotize by a long shot. Great songs but I can't listen to them, all the clipping is driving me crazy.
Soad's Hypnotize.
AG -11.91db
Totally wasted record. Shame for such a great band.
/edit: Added a screen of Kill Rock'n'Roll
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8357/soadhypnorock9ge.th.jpg) (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soadhypnorock9ge.jpg)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=349220"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
that's strange....my copy of Hypnotize RG's at
-11.47dB and peaks at 0.999969
Soad's Hypnotize.
AG -11.91db
Totally wasted record. Shame for such a great band.
/edit: Added a screen of Kill Rock'n'Roll
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8357/soadhypnorock9ge.th.jpg) (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soadhypnorock9ge.jpg)
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=349220"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Honestly, I'd consider SOAD to be one of the few bands where loud, distortion-filled sound actually fits the music. It's kind of hard to explain, really; you just kind of have to "get" what the band is about to understand.
Maybe so, but clipping is NEVER good.
What about U2's Beatiful Day? It's totally awful!
I really liked Daft Punk in the past, especially the stuff on the Homework album and what they did in and around that time (great singles & remixes). Discovery was ok, but nothing special and then not that long ago came the huge dissapointment that was Human After All. Since this is a mastering thread let me just say that whatever good musically was on it (not much really) got destroyed by the awful mastering. In my book too loud is always too loud and with that necessarily a bad thing, but coupled with DP's heavily (re)sampled, filtered and processed sound it's even worse, as all the otherwise barely if at all audible processing artifacts become very loud and you find yourself swimming in an ocean of distorted noise - yuck. Definitely a tiresome listen if there ever was one.
I'm guessing this last album didn't sell all that well (not surprised at all if that's in fact the case), since they're already coming out with a collection titled "Musique Vol.1 1993-2005" to be officially released in april (if nothing else this collection is a nice showcase of how they've gotten progressively & considerably worse with each album). Fortunate enough to have a copy already, I compared the first track on it also titled Musique, with a copy of it from a single released in 1996. I decided to do this because the trax on this collection lifted from their early releases which I like and own all on cds and/or vinyls sounded considerably worse than I remembered. As you're able to see from the screenshots, my ears and "audio memory" didn't play any tricks on me...
Musique in 1996
[a href="http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=musiqueoriginal3ca.png" target="_blank"]
Fortunate enough to have a copy already,...[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=375127"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The mastering on their Human After All remixes disc is very awful, too. Track 1 has a RG value of about -3, the next track -10. I almost destroyed my speakers
hmm, I think the vast majority of albums mentioned here are absolutely *meant* to sound the way they do. An obvious exception is Californication - surely the band didn't want the kind of clipping we end up with?
Audioslave? yeah meant to be overloud. sad? perhaps.
Oasis - we can blame this all on Oasis, I do remember from back in the day being shocked by how much louder their CDs were than everyone else. I think they sound fine for what they are.
Lenny Kravitz. hmm i only have his greatest hits and i can't say i was ever bothered by the sound, but if people tell me the distortion wasn't their on the orignal albums, then that sucks i guess, but hey at least the fans are getting something *new* for their money
Metallica ...And Justice For All - this is just poor production, not bad mastering. The album has always been noted for having no bass guitar etc.. I can't comment on St. Anger as i don't do new metallica.
Sleater-Kinney, the Woods - I love this album and all its distortion.
The Strokes? surely that distortion is part of their signature sound? people would probably whinge if they released a clean sounding record.
Someone mentioned Pearl Jam Binaural - are you seriously whinging that they decided to record some binaural songs rather than normal stereo?! My ears tell me it's nicely mastered.
Whatever...
Look their best customers are the ones who shun P2P to ensure that they get the best quality. I am one of those. Probably I am mad spending money, but I do not care. However I take no shit. I bought one Audioslave CD. The self-titled one, and I can tell you that that was the last one. The same goes for the Strokes. In fact to save myself disappointment I avoid hearing anything they put out. Not that difficult since I shun the radiostations, whose demise will be my best day of my life. I hate their 10 song long playlist.
Triza
John Mayer - Heavier Things
Seconded. I thought there must be something wrong with my setup when listening to it. Awful.
All Black Metal albums
All Black Metal albums
Yes, i was wondering why did't anyone mention it. Especially early BM like Bathory, Mayhem. Yesterday i was listening to Zyklon B - Blood must be shed. Man, awful band, awful music, awul mastering, just a waste of time and material used to print this piece of sh*t.
But poor mastering here is used mostly to hide the lack of abiltity of these 'musicians'.
But newer black-metal (symph-black) like Dimmu Borgir is not so bad (i mean the mastering, the music is still horrible )
U2 - How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb - So very loud, mp3gain minus 12.00 on some tracks
All Black Metal albums
Yes, i was wondering why did't anyone mention it. Especially early BM like Bathory, Mayhem. Yesterday i was listening to Zyklon B - Blood must be shed. Man, awful band, awful music, awul mastering, just a waste of time and material used to print this piece of sh*t.
But poor mastering here is used mostly to hide the lack of abiltity of these 'musicians'.
You may like it or not but Bathory's Hammerheart is a masterpiece of Black Metal. Do you imagine it to be lacquered and smooth like Mozart or Chris de Burgh? However I don't think it is mastered that way due short cash. That sounding is inherent atmosphere of that genre.
this is an easy question: the remastered version of "Einstürzende Neubautens" Kollaps
it really ruins the album completely
There are lots of bad ones, but the worst I think are the two latest System of A Down cd's. I just can't listen to either one all the way through. You know what we need? A database of cd replaygain values. Just replaygains, nothing else (well, you'd need to know exactly what cd you're referring to).
Worst mastered...hmm..
Therapy? Albums are all quite loud, the loudest one i own is the newest one, 'Never Apologse, Never Explain', Albumpeak 11,32, loudest song: Rock you Monkeys, peak 12.21
There's only a single song in my whole therapy?-collection that's below 89 db, 0,65 below...
Ok, it's not the kind of music you usually listen quietly but hell, there's no need to produce music that loud...
There overall peak and track peak of the Album 'suicide pact, you first' is at 1.0, no headroom, not a bit.
I don't think that it's the band's fault but I think it's a hard piece to bite
You know what we need? A database of cd replaygain values. Just replaygains, nothing else (well, you'd need to know exactly what cd you're referring to).
Thats a very cool idea. Something similar to accurate rip.
Well, I dont like latest Bob Marley`s delux editions.. Sounds kinda thin to me...
There's only a single song in my whole therapy?-collection that's below 89 db, 0,65 below...
is that 'Diane'? it's the only therapy song i know, and i can't imagine it to sound as loud. although nothing surprises me anymore...
All Black Metal albums
Yes, i was wondering why did't anyone mention it. Especially early BM like Bathory, Mayhem. Yesterday i was listening to Zyklon B - Blood must be shed. Man, awful band, awful music, awul mastering, just a waste of time and material used to print this piece of sh*t.
But poor mastering here is used mostly to hide the lack of abiltity of these 'musicians'.
You may like it or not but Bathory's Hammerheart is a masterpiece of Black Metal. Do you imagine it to be lacquered and smooth like Mozart or Chris de Burgh? However I don't think it is mastered that way due short cash. That sounding is inherent atmosphere of that genre.
Hammerhart is still black metal? I don't know that album, but it's folower 'Twilight of the Gods', was pretty far from anything called black metal and such a brutal album as 'Return...' was.
i've heard 'Twilight' from some poor 128k mp3's but the songs sounded so bad, that it had to be several times transcoded or an extremely poor mix, i can't decide. (and i can't decide if i didn't liked it because of the bad sound, or is it just simply boring)
AFAIK 'Twilight...' is considered to be a well produced Bathory album, but again i didn't have the opportunity to hear the original. But 'Return...' sounded quite horrible
(yeah, i listen to a lot of music)
@molnart
Funny thing i see your avatar here. I have many "The Mission" CDs and they are partial painfully bright mastered!
Children has that much high highs it bursts your ears listening on a hifi system with live characteristics.
All Black Metal albums
Yes, i was wondering why did't anyone mention it. Especially early BM like Bathory, Mayhem. Yesterday i was listening to Zyklon B - Blood must be shed. Man, awful band, awful music, awul mastering, just a waste of time and material used to print this piece of sh*t.
But poor mastering here is used mostly to hide the lack of abiltity of these 'musicians'.
You may like it or not but Bathory's Hammerheart is a masterpiece of Black Metal. Do you imagine it to be lacquered and smooth like Mozart or Chris de Burgh? However I don't think it is mastered that way due short cash. That sounding is inherent atmosphere of that genre.
Hammerhart is still black metal? I don't know that album, but it's folower 'Twilight of the Gods', was pretty far from anything called black metal and such a brutal album as 'Return...' was.
Hmm. To be accurate, I have to say it is a 'waypoint' between 'Return' and 'Twilight...' with lot of scandinavian mythology included. By the way, it seems to me 'Twilight...' you talk wasn't transcoded. While it is not Black Metal it still have coars sound.
@molnart
Funny thing i see your avatar here. I have many "The Mission" CDs and they are partial painfully bright mastered!
Children has that much high highs it bursts your ears listening on a hifi system with live characteristics.
i just simply love the cover art of that album. it's a really nice picture, nothing more.
in fact i don't really remember the mastering now, but i know 'carved in sand' sounded too quiet. and i haven't heard their other albums, so you may be right
Has anyone heard the new Flaming Lips? Yikes! Is that bad mastering or an intention (both?)? Anyone have comments on it as well? They are considered Pop, so maybe that's why the mastering is so overbearingly loud to the point of in-your-face distortion?
I can excuse the mastering of the new Flaming Lips album. Even though I'm sure the loudness race had something to do with the -11 dB Replaygain values, it doesn't completely ruin the sound as it would, say, a classical album. The Flaming Lips have used distortion artistically before, as in Slow Nerve Action:
http://beta.yousendit.com/transfer.php?act...D3DF7FD0A78BAE4 (http://beta.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=BD3DF7FD0A78BAE4)
So the distortion doesn't worry me too much, but the dynamic range compression is excessive. Even the quiet tracks get a -8 dB Replaygain value. The compression is especially apparent in introduction of The W.A.N.D.. It's just clapping and guitar until 0:24, when the bass and drums come in, and you can hear the level of the guitar drop way down, an effect of the dynamic range compression.
When I saw this thread bumped to the first page I thought, bingo! I'll post about the new Flaming Lips album. Seems I don't need to but I'll add my two penneth anyway.
It sounds awful and I'm absoloutely gutted. Yoshimi was such a great album. Not perfect sonically but nowhere near as bad as Mystics. Too loud, too much distortion due to bad engineering.
Yoshimi and the new album's loudness are actually quite similar:
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a188/slks/flaminglips.png)
The Soft Bulletin wasn't much better, either.
Oh, Flaming Lips' Dave Fridmann did it again. He also clippressed S-K's The Woods to death before. This man's a threat! LOL
LOL! Yoshimi was actually tolerable in it's mastering (as a whole) since there were a few songs where not all of the song was clipped to death; this resulted in the mastering seeming very intentional and actually artful, especially since many songs dealt with machines (etc.). But now, with the new one....sigh.... Every song is painfully distorted, not only with the low end, but in almost all places. I listen to music where mastering gets a quite a few complaints often, from Glitch (but I love most mastering in the genre) to Industrial to old Jazz and Pop, and this is one that I just can't get through because of the mastering!
Look at The WAND!!
(http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/375/untitled11mj.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Here is a small sample from the album for your displeasure:
Yeah Yeah Yeah Song, sample (http://www.daefeatures.co.uk/files/TooLoudYeahYeahYeah.wv)
@komplexnous: Omg, what are those spikes at the beginning of the song?!?!
@evereux: sounds like their instruments are broken...
Some of the worst are:
The Be Good Tanyas: Chinatown
Sarah McLahlan: Afterglow
Beth Orton: Comfort Of Strangers
They are not only subject copy protection damaged audio track but also have naff cd mastering/pressing by EMI. Run them through EAC on maximum repair settings then burn it back onto a CD-R to hear them like they should have been.
The bad mastering/pressing was confirmed to me when Nettwerk posted me a replacement non-CP CD of Chinatown which revealed to me that many of the errors on the disc were just down to poor mastering/pressing.
As for "Comfort Of Strangers" even after restorting it with EAC it sounds like you are listening to it with ear plugs in!, Califonication by the Chillis is awful you can hear clipping throughout most of the tracks and many Iron Maiden recordings have a tinny speaker sound. Did they really have to use a school kid who was on work experience to man the recording decks? Egad.
David
Going back in time a bit here, but the first (AAD) CD release of "Foxtrot" by Genesis is an absolute horror. Virtually no dynamic range, horrendous tape hiss, a general "muddy" quality with mushy distorted treble in fact it sounds like the CD was made from a badly recorded worn-out cassette. It's so bad as to be un-listenable - thankfully I still have my LP copy.
Other AAD CDs I've heard have no such problems - the AAD release of "Argus" by Wishbone Ash and early Tangerine Dream CD releases all have excellent mastering including live concert recordings like "Richochet" by TD.
The current fashion of "digitally remastering" older analog recordings for CD release just seems to compound the problem - most I've heard degrade rather than improve the original. Just like many new CD releases, far too much compression, overuse of latest "kewl" effects plug-ins etc. Very disappointing.
BRILLIANT THREAD!
Gotta agree here... ... most digitally resquashed ... eh remastered stuff sounds awful and the original album is lots better. I too paid about 10 bucks more for the Swedish original release of Bjorks Icelandic-language "Gling glo" album, and I must say I do not regret it! Soothing RGs ... (ok it's jazz and cannot be compared with "half deadly compressed" mainstream pop wares...)
My warmest thanks also go to that guy who showed me that I should consider buying a turntable again!! I was almost giving up that thought, because I regarded it as "old fashioned, " but recent album releases have shown that there CAN be a change in dynamics, by using vinyl!
Cool! The new DM album track has about the same spectrum like some song recorded back in 1993 - that's how it should be!
Something else:
No one who does not own the original CD or non-encoded rips [WAV] of a CD should EVER judge about replay gains!!
That's serious folks! With a good (!)(no, not winamp) audio playing and cataloging software like Foobar2000, you are able to MODIFY a replay gain to your own wishes! So that guy who just gets the album as a torrent or downloading it as a .rar/.zip archive might already get a version with *other* replay gains!
Moreover, do not forget that there is a less known option called --noreplaygain in LAME.
[...] there is a less known option called --noreplaygain in LAME.
Virtually nothing supports LAME's replaygain info anyhow.
[...] there is a less known option called --noreplaygain in LAME.
Virtually nothing supports LAME's replaygain info anyhow.
That's nice to know - thanks for the heads-up!
very bad masters are
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication and Stadium Arcadium
Labels should put a warning sticker on albums mastered by Vlado Meller.
very bad masters are
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication and Stadium Arcadium
Labels should put a warning sticker on albums mastered by Vlado Meller.
No, Vlado Meller should put a warning sticker on the CD that the label forced him to destroy the dynamics.
I recently managed to 'acquire' 192kbps mp3s of a pre-master version of Californication. It has better dynamics and resultant lower RG values, and much less clipping. However, I still think it was mixed/EQ'd a bit odd.
I recently managed to 'acquire' 192kbps mp3s of a pre-master version of Californication. It has better dynamics and resultant lower RG values, and much less clipping. However, I still think it was mixed/EQ'd a bit odd.
Keep in mind that those MP3s are transcodes. The 'unmastered' (rather, it's just better mastered) version leaked from Warner Bros. as 160 Kbps MP3 files. The files you have were converted to CD for distribution, then re-ripped at 192 Kbps.
But I agree, it is a lot better, which just makes the CD sound even worse.
Two immediately come to mind:
Feist - Let It Die
Smashing Pumpkins - MACHINA/The Machines of God
The Feist album has some pretty bad clipping on the singer's voice, and this is not that kind of music. The Pumpkins album might be more intentional, but I remember right after buying it listening to it and immediately ejecting it to see that it was in fact the real CD.
Two CDs by GIGI D'Agostino:
Tecno Fes vol. 2 (many tracks have audible annoying clipping, looks like they were just amplified to "200%")
L'Amour Tojours [spelling]
There's only a single song in my whole therapy?-collection that's below 89 db, 0,65 below...
is that 'Diane'? it's the only therapy song i know, and i can't imagine it to sound as loud. although nothing surprises me anymore...
ah, sorry for the little late reply, haven't seen the quote
I have two (Therapy?) versions of diane:
the 4:59 long from 'Infernal love' (1995) has -4.47 dB trackgain with foobar (89 dB as reference)
the 4:00 long from 'so much for the ten year plan' (2000) which is something like a 'best of', -1,10 dB trackgain and the peak at 0,67 (which is a surprise for me now..)
and it's damn surprising for me that the album gain is around 7 at both albums the 1995 and the 2000.
well, others, especialy the latest ones have album gains of -9 to -11, so I can't say that they haven't taken part at the loudness race.
The mastering itself... well, i would say it's Therapy?-style
Edit:
I didn't listen too much to the quality-aspects until now but it's obvious thatsome if not many of theire song's are awfully mixed or mastered. I just listened to 'theme from Delorean' from the album Shameless. Hell, it makes me cry. At first I heard very obvious clipping at around 1:40 to about 1:50, especially at the vocals, but after listening closer and looking at the wave I recognised that the whole damn song is clipping. Shame on those studios for 'Shameless'.
Just my opinion, but Stadium Arcadium is mastered alot better than Californication or By The Way. While I haven't looked at it in an editor yet, there's alot less audible distortion.
Just my opinion, but Stadium Arcadium is mastered alot better than Californication or By The Way. While I haven't looked at it in an editor yet, there's alot less audible distortion.
It is better that Californication and By The Way I agree, but that isn't saying much at all, because those CDs are varying degrees of terrible.
I think one problem that perhaps doesn't receive much attention is the excessive limiting that really stuffs the high frequencies. Any cymbal crashes are harshly limited which makes them sound splashy and hissy high frequency distortion.
I encourage anyone interested in Stadium Arcadium to purchase a vinyl copy. It has been mastered by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray who normally master reissues of Jazz and rock albums.
The transfer was performed all analog from the 30 I.P.S. master tapes.
Anything by Beyonce, for example "Check on it".
Yes, the song sucks to begin with, but it's mastering is even worse.
(http://leif.cx/temp/beyonce.gif)
The song goes crunch-crunch from beginning to end, but clips even more towards the end. Kick drum just slaughters everything else, although the voice clips all by itself in some places.
Now why bother pointing out a mainstream R&B track, which we could have guessed would be this poorly mastered?
Because this track went 5x platinum, and there's a whole generation of kids growing up listening to this, liking it, and thinking this is what music is supposed to sound like!
///Leif
Anything by Beyonce, for example "Check on it".
(...)
Because this track went 5x platinum, and there's a whole generation of kids growing up listening to this, liking it, and thinking this is what music is supposed to sound like!
The problem is that kids are growing up thinking that Beyonce is music. This is exactly the case where bad mastering is deserved. The ideal mastering for Beyonce would be however no mastering (constant hiss)
The song goes crunch-crunch from beginning to end, but clips even more towards the end. Kick drum just slaughters everything else, although the voice clips all by itself in some places.
It seems to just be a standard procedure for R&B albums that the bass drum is clipped. I guess it sounds "C00L" on cheap boom boxes, and car stereos with waytoobigthannecessary sub woofers.
Wow... I've never seen anything like this (http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2596/iangillan3uz.png).
album: Gillan's Inn by Ian Gillan (2006).
Apparently they squashed it and replaygained it afterwards.
Oh, i forgot to mention that it sounds awful.
Nevermore - Enemies of Reality
It's a shame that such a great band would put out a cd that sounds so horrible compared to all previous releases. This album has the worst mastering of anything I have personally listened to. It even makes Animositisomina look good. Stick with their earlier (brilliant) work if you can.
Remixed and remastered "Enemies of Reality" came out in march 2005.
Virgin Prunes - If I die, I die - 2004 Remaster
Album peak is 1.542267... it sounds really horrible.
The "Very Best" of Prince.
A lot of tracks clip, not only in bass regions but in voices as well (for example Get Off...)
Wanted to return the CD to the store, starting babbling about "how it clips" and the store clerk watched me with a face just short of open-mouthed drooling...
Now why bother pointing out a mainstream R&B track, which we could have guessed would be this poorly mastered?
Because this track went 5x platinum, and there's a whole generation of kids growing up listening to this, liking it, and thinking this is what music is supposed to sound like!
Maybe some guys in the states should start a class action lawsuit in the states, claiming they destroyed their precious B&W Nautilus (or equivalent) speakers playing this record, for lets say $1 million per person, because their speakers aren't made anymore...
Think that would invert the trend?
The "Very Best" of Prince.
A lot of tracks clip, not only in bass regions but in voices as well (for example Get Off...)
Is that a recently remastered compilation?
I think the company (is it Warner Bros.?) are currently remastering all his albums. That compilation could be an example of what's to come...
I think the company (is it Warner Bros.?) are currently remastering all his albums. That compilation could be an example of what's to come...
It was in the "cheap price" basket, released 2001.
Just checked per-file gain on Track 14: -4.07db, track peak 0.774933
Don't have a wave editor to look at it though.
Just messing around w/ some cds I have that sound funky and found this one
Adema - Unstable...the song is Betrayed Me has a -11.2 track gain
(http://www2.turbosonoma.com:8080/betrays.jpg)
sad thing is I could pick out hundreds of songs from my cd collection that are just as bad, if not worse
I just bought another copy of Ozzy Osbourne's blizzard of oz, not noticing it was remastered. Oh God its awful. I needed to replace a skipping copy but I would rather listen to skips than this. The drums are horribly clipping. Makes my decent infinity speakers sound like a boombox. Don't ever buy that cd!
oh yeah californication is really bad too but I'm just the 100th person to say that
I just bought another copy of Ozzy Osbourne's blizzard of oz, not noticing it was remastered. Oh God its awful. I needed to replace a skipping copy but I would rather listen to skips than this. The drums are horribly clipping. Makes my decent infinity speakers sound like a boombox. Don't ever buy that cd!
...not to mention that the original bass and drum tracks by Daisley and Kerslake were replaced with recordings by Trujillo and Bordin.
The worst one for me is Rage Against The Machine -- Renegades. Most of the kick drums are all squashed, especially on track number 4, Renegades of Funk. It's brutal. What really sucks is that the songs are awesome, and they're ruined.
The worst one for me is Rage Against The Machine -- Renegades. Most of the kick drums are all squashed, especially on track number 4, Renegades of Funk. It's brutal. What really sucks is that the songs are awesome, and they're ruined.
That's another CD mastered by Vlado Meller.
He has completely destroyed what is excellent music. I can't fathom how or why studio executives allow CDs like that to be released, it obviously demonstrates that they don't care about the quality of the product that they sell.
oasis - whats the story morning glory
just listen to "champagne supernova" and you know what i mean.
track gain -13.52db
Nightwish - Once (2004)
Not so clipped (by Audacity graph) and album RG "just" -8.82 dB but sound (especially of drums) impossible distorted.
I can't listen more 3 songs in headphones.
oasis - whats the story morning glory
just listen to "champagne supernova" and you know what i mean.
track gain -13.52db
I think that is another album mastered by Vlado Meller.
My copy doesn't have a mastering credit, but I know on Meller's webpage that he is listed as mastering the SACD.
...not to mention that the original bass and drum tracks by Daisley and Kerslake were replaced with recordings by Trujillo and Bordin.
Really? I had no idea not even the same tracks? why would they do that? I knew something was off but I had no clue they were different recordings!
Why can't I know information like this before throwing my money away?
Here is comparison of the wave forms for three songs from the Red Hot Chili Peppers album Stadium Arcadium.
The top waveform is from the mastering performed for the vinyl version. The bottom waveform is a comparison of the same tracks to the CD version.
For more information see the original post by the vinyl mastering engineer Steve Hoffman here (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=84600).
first thread i read here and it makes me realize how little i understand mastering
since the mastering of the latest chili peppers cds are so bad, i must ask, has anyone checked out the remasters of all their 80s albums they released a couple of years ago?
that could be a whole other thread right there, worst remastered cds...
If you are interested in the 1980s RHCP albums, I recommend finding the original CD versions. The 2003 remastered versions have just been compressed heaps.
Here is the ReplayGain by album for most RHCP albums and compilations. As you can see the 2003 remastered versions of the 1980s albums require a much larger correction factor to get the sound back to 89 dB, which means they are much louder.
(http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/9789/replagainsmall9pv.jpg)
The Mars Volta's albums are compressed to hell, but they don't really sound bad. Almost fits the music, although it is overdone.
After my first listen of St. Anger, threw the dvd and and was amazed at how much better this sounded. Made a nice little audio cd out it, and that's all I've ever listened too.
I did the same thing with Sade's
Lovers Live. Lovers Rock (the CD) is so awful I can't imagine the reasoning behind mixing and mastering it the way they did. Audible clipping aplenty (the opening of King of Sorrow especially), and a generally harsh, thuddy sound that would be better suited to rap than Sade.
On the flipside,
Lovers Live sounds incredible. It's very clean and natural sounding, and plenty of snap and impact when necessary. I don't care if it's using a lossy compression scheme, it's WORLDS better than the CD. Thank you Dolby Labs for mandating levels and headroom.
Lizz Wright's
Dreaming Wide Awake is a disappointment too. It's a jazz/pop CD and it is grossly overcompressed.
Stop, the second track, has very noticeable compression on the drum kit and/or the bass. It's a wonderful record, but the questionable mastering definitely mars it.
I myself also made a cd out of the DVD of St. Anger. Much more listenable in my opinion.
I did the same thing with Sade's Lovers Live. Lovers Rock (the CD) is so awful I can't imagine the reasoning behind mixing and mastering it the way they did. Audible clipping aplenty (the opening of King of Sorrow especially), and a generally harsh, thuddy sound that would be better suited to rap than Sade.
I recently found a copy of an original (1984) CD pressing of Sade's first album Diamond Life, the first track Smooth Operator has a peak of just 60%! Surely this counts as bad CD mastering as well, becuase it is using hardly any of the 16 bit resolution of the CD format.
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1091/smoothoperatorwd3.jpg)
Sadly, the remastered version is probably the opposite extreme...
I recently found a copy of an original (1984) CD pressing of Sade's first album Diamond Life, the first track Smooth Operator has a peak of just 60%! Surely this counts as bad CD mastering as well, becuase it is using hardly any of the 16 bit resolution of the CD format.
I wonder if older CDs used the same master as an LP. That might explain their insanely low levels.
I recently found a copy of an original (1984) CD pressing of Sade's first album Diamond Life, the first track Smooth Operator has a peak of just 60%! Surely this counts as bad CD mastering as well, becuase it is using hardly any of the 16 bit resolution of the CD format.
Hardly any? Actually, it's using somewhere between 14 and 15 bits of resolution of the 16 available, which isn't all that horrible.
-brendan
And besides, maybe there's a peak closer to 100% somewhere else on the album. In the old days it wasn't assumed that every track on an album should peak at the same level.
Title track to Steve Miller 'Fly Like An Eagle', first CD issue, versus the newly released 'anniversary edition' (not the worst by any means, but oh so typical)::
Fly Like an Eagle (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/showpost.php?p=2927619&postcount=14)
Without a doubt Slayer - Christ Illusion. It's possibly the most clipped album ever produced. It is really unlistenably bad and I really like Slayer . There's clipping *everywhere*, every singly drum beat is horribly clipped as are all the heavy passages. Here are two random examples:
. I truly hope they release an audiophile's version of this album because I cant listen to this.
This one gave me a shock. Hypocrisy - Warpath (2005). The ReplayGain track gain is -13.41 dB. Album gain is even more insane: -14.09 dB.
(http://www.devir.de/temp/hypocrisy.png)
What is that? Music, or noise?!?!
I guess they call it metal, deathmetal actually (listen yourself, not that song but some others: http://www.hypocrisy.tv/) (http://www.hypocrisy.tv/))
One could think they know what they are doing, one of those guys is producing some well known metal bands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tägtgren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tägtgren)
Metal is so often mastered like crap it's not funny. I know some friends that can hear the clipping distortion in metal and believe that it's just the musicians performing so loud that it distorts and see that as a desireable thing in music.
Metal is so often mastered like crap it's not funny.
So true. That's what really spoils this genre for me. Metal (or generally music with a thick layer of distorted guitars) is really prone to compression-related sound issues while electronic music is far less affected.
Metal is so often mastered like crap it's not funny.
So true. That's what really spoils this genre for me. Metal (or generally music with a thick layer of distorted guitars) is really prone to compression-related sound issues while electronic music is far less affected.
I wouldn't necessarily say that about metal, not any more so than any other genre. Obviously anything as popular as Slayer will probably be affected, but there are tons of great metal recordings. Ulver's Bergtatt for instance has this faded and distant sound but on a mastering level is not overcompressed at all and, for what they tried to do, is fantastic. Many others like Arcturus' The Sham Mirrors or Opeth's Still Life are of the loud-but-good variety.
Then there's Darkthrone, but, you know...
A lot of random small band demo tapes are pretty damned bad.
I've heard that the Electric Light Orchestra 2 CD was poorly remastered...anyone have proof of this? I don't actually own it yet, so...
Personally, I think Rage Against the Machine is kind of badly mastered. I noticed it is consistent in every album, so most likely it's just the way they want to sound like, but I kinda don't like how it's set up even though I love Rage Against The Machine. I think their guitars, drums, and bass are too loud compared to the vocals. Sometimes I have a really hard time making out what the lyrics are because everything is louder than the vocals.
Pulse Demon by Merzbow has an album gain value of -18 dB, the loudest CD I know of.
Haha, I thinks someone should point The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/23/bob_dylan_digital_sucks/) to this thread.
Surprised nobody has mentioned Monster Magnet's Powertrip album
I love the music, I hate the clipping.
Sheryl Crow's self titled CD had poor dynamic range, to my ears. That spoiled the enjoyment of some truly great music to me.
how about the new mastodon record? like i said earlier, i dont really know much about mastering or recognizing bad mastering or whatever, but i think im starting to with that. so many points in the album where it distorts, and actually kinda hurts to listen to. shame since the music is great.
My collection of CDs span from original purchases in 1984 (I have several hundred from that period) to the present day. It's amazing how much "louder" the CDs are today from the ones from 1984-85.
I think at the time the mastering was so important so as not introduce distortion (and returns) of then still relatively rare CDs. Most of the earliest CDs in the USA were made and imported from Japan and Germany and there were difficulties of high-rejection and "waiting in line". CDs had to compete against half-speed mastered records and other high quality analog sources and were mastered so that there weren't problems that would cause still-skeptical audio reviewers to say: "see there! CDs are worse than records". The point of all this is that at the time the music companies cared about ensuring the CDs were problem-free.
Even so, companies discovered how inadequate the production masters were for many CDs - thus the "rematered" term over and over. One great fallout of all of this is that many record companies finally organinzed, properly stored, and used the original precious masters.
As 45's were usually mastered to sound "good" in portable and car radios, I suspect CDs are mastered to sound "good" (loud) when imported into low-powered portable devices.
Just my opinions.
I hope The Breeders - Last Splash gets remastered somewhere in the near future. I recently found this CD again after not listening to it for over ten years.
I had forgotten that it sounded so bad and at first couldn't believe my ears. I actually listened to a friends copy and downloaded one to hear if it wasn't just my copy. It wasn't.
Just got an amazing CD recently. Thing is, the mastering is horrible. The Music's self-titled album is simply impossible to listen to without ReplayGain.
One track, "Float", is particularly bad. ReplayGain's track gain is -13.07. The end of the track literally sounds like noise.
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/719/cliporamaoe8.gif)
I also bought their second CD "Welcome to the North" but have not listened to it yet (I've only heard mp3 samples); hopefully it's better, seeing as I don't think you can get much worse.
depeche mode playing the angel... the worst mastered cd ever...
there is actually a vinyl flac copy in demonoid dot com...
the torrent has loads of warnings, protests, and texts on loudness war...
i just got one file of it and it really does SOUND MUCH BETTER than the cd
Depeche Mode - Playing The Angel
Quite interesting site - Playing The Angel CD vs Vinyl (http://brianstagg.co.uk/p_t_a_clipressed/)
My first post on this forum. I found this forum precisely because of this thread!
Let's get to it:
Anthrax, Greater of 2 Evils. The wave isn't as brickwalled as that monstrosity above, but still very loud and sounds terrible.
Rammstein--Reise Reise and I'm sure Rosenrot--just LOUD. Herzeleid is soothing in comparison.
Napalm Death--The Code is Red
Despised Icon--Healing Process
Any death metal, grindcore, extreme metal of the last 10 years
EXCEPT: Necrophagist, Epitaph, mastered by Bob Katz, Digital Domain. Sounds awesome!
Beth Orton's "Comfort of Strangers" CD from 2006. Dry, dead sound that only gets worse with good gear. Her other albums are clearly not recorded on state of the art equipment, but they sound musical. This one does not.
Personally, I think Rage Against the Machine is kind of badly mastered. I noticed it is consistent in every album, so most likely it's just the way they want to sound like, but I kinda don't like how it's set up even though I love Rage Against The Machine. I think their guitars, drums, and bass are too loud compared to the vocals. Sometimes I have a really hard time making out what the lyrics are because everything is louder than the vocals.
That's not the mastering, that's the way the songs were mixed.
I thought Rage Against the Machine's self-titled is considered a finely mastered CD. Sounds awesome to me, compared to everything since then. 1992 still had a lot of good recordings.
The loudest albums on my computer:
-12.53 - Oasis - Whats The Story (Morning Glory)
-12.19 - The Who - Ultimate Collection (CD2)
-11.96 - System Of A Down - Hypnotize
-11.94 - Oasis - Be Here Now
-11.71 - The Who - Ultimate Collection (CD1)
-11.68 - System Of A Down - Mezmerize
-11.62 - System Of A Down - Steal This Album
-11.50 - Oasis - The Masterplan
-11.41 - Stereophonics - Language Sex Violence Other?
-11.40 - Goo Goo Dolls - Gutterflower
Other stuff up high there is Out Of Exile by Audioslave, More Oasis, Slayer's Reign In Blood, Bon Jovi's Slippery When Wet (The fact it is a remaster comes to mind), The Black Crowes, Flaming Lips' At War With The Mystics, Godsmack, The Killers, Buckethead's Enter The Chicken, etc.
(Stuff from Nirvana - With The Lights Out ranks up there too, but it seems I have that on track gain instead of album gain)
Not sure if anyone posted this, but put this into the album list panel part of preferences to see your loudest or quietest albums.
%__replaygain_album_gain% | %album%
Really close to 0 change on replaygain is 'Layla and other assorted love songs', along with some Grateful Dead and Phish stuff.
I will share my list
10 Most Compressed Albums I Own
1. RHCP – Californication *-12.86db* (very obvious clipping, hard to listen)
2. System of a Down – Mezmerize -11.66db less of their ballads more loud metal
3. White Stripes – White Blood Cells -11.40db going for very grungy sound?
4. Third Eye Blind – Blue -11.23db very compressed pop music from late 90s
5. Audioslave – Out of Exile -11.18db worse than debut album
6. Jay-Z – The Black Album -11.11db
7. Snow Patrol – Eyes Open -11.10db anyone else surprised by this?
8. Killers – Sam’s Town -11.04db
9. 50 Cent – Get Rich or Die Tryin’ -10.92db "i compress like its my birthday"
10. (tie) System of a Down – System of a Down -10.87db
(tie) Killers – Hot Fuss -10.87db
I wanted to add that you must have the remastered version of Oasis - {What's the Story} Morning Glory? because my version is 9.02db above default replaygain volume.
I don't listen to much classical music or have many cds from audiophile labels, but
3 Most Dynamic albums I own
1. Paul Simon - Graceland -0.17db
2. Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman -0.42db
3. Jimmy Buffet - Songs You Know by Heart -0.58db
9 'Loudest' Tracks I Own
1. Red Hot Chili Peppers – Californication – Parallel Universe -14.17db WOW
2. Jay-Z – Black Album – PSA -13.37db
3. RHCP – Californication – Get On Top -13.29db
4. Dr Dre – 2001 – Let’s Get High -13.18db
5. RHCP – Californication – Otherside -13.07db
6. " - Purple Stain -13.05db
7. " - Easily -12.91db
8. " - I Like Dirt -12.88db
9. " - This Velvet Glove -12.75db
enjoying Regina Spektor - Begin to Hope now
Hi from Italy and sorry for my bad english.
One of the worst listening albums i have is Aerosmith - Nine Lives (original 1997 version) : It's non so loud as Californication, but it's sounds just like mud out of the loudspeakers ! High frequencies are the worst i ever listen !
I thought Rage Against the Machine's self-titled is considered a finely mastered CD. Sounds awesome to me, compared to everything since then. 1992 still had a lot of good recordings.
I agree with you, I think it is a brilliantly mastered CD, by I beleive Bob Ludwig. I even think Evil Empire (1996) (also mastered by B.L.) is very good, even though it is considerably louder than the self titled album. It is around about as loud as I think a hard rock album needs to be.
Sadly Battle of Los Angeles suffers from bad mastering, including audible clipping, and the cover album Renegades is unlistenable because of hack work by Vlado Meller.
I listen to a lot of electronic music on vinyl, only 12" singles where there`s only one tune on each side and mostly thick vinyl. That, and the fact that this music isn`t mastered by any of the big names makes it incredible when it comes to dynamics. Cd`s of pop music really can`t compare; play them on low volume and they sound VERY boring, play them loud and they sound VERY annoying. Modern pop music is made to sound good on standard car speakers and portable radios. I kinda like the californication tune, it`s catchy, but i never listen to it because i don`t like the sound, i`m glad to see there`s more people who agree on this.
Does anyone have any idea if asian cd's or asian versions are mastered any differently?
Aparently Asians typicly like there music to sound clear and un distorted( in general as a people) where as us brits and americans much perfer loud brash distorted loud loud loud crap.
Watching the gadget show here in the uk on Five they testted a UK tuned denon amp and compaired it with a internation version the british version sounded like ( and you guessed it) like modern cd' masters basicly crap! The international version sounded an aweful lot better.
It seems that it's at least posable that western cd's may be remastered and unbuggered for the asian market.
I always thought those rumors were totally full of crap.
Japanese mastering engineers often like to turn up the high treble a whole lot.
how about the new mastodon record? like i said earlier, i dont really know much about mastering or recognizing bad mastering or whatever, but i think im starting to with that. so many points in the album where it distorts, and actually kinda hurts to listen to. shame since the music is great.
Am afraid that Mastodon's latest album Blood Mountain album is a poorly mastered album. A good example on how it is badly mastered is Crystal Skull (Track 2) that got ruined by annoying clicks.
Badly mastered CD's i own:
System Of Down - Hypnotize
Drowning Pool - Sinner
System Of Down - System Of Down (Mastered by The kombucha mushroom people )
Mastodon - Blood Mountain
Slipknot - Vol. 3: The Subliminal Verses
Fear Factory - Transgression (Alot of clicks and the bonus live tracks were from a lossy audio codec source like mp3 @ 32 kbps)
Queens Of The Stone Age - Songs For The Deaf (Well the album title says all , but dam it is too loud)
Ozzy Osbourne - Blizzard Of Ozz [2002 Remaster] (Has to be the worst and well-known remasters ever)
Nine Inch Nails - Further Down The Spiral (Has some wired screeching noises mustly when there is vocals and some tracks are in mono)
Megadeth - Rust In Peace [2004 Remaster] (Had new recordings like the Blizzard Of Ozz remaster, but the sound is good)
Best mastered CD's i own:
Rage Against The Machine - Rage Against The Machine
Metallica - Metallica (It is a shame that Metallica went over-the-top with this album)
Metallica - ...And Justice For All (Sounds great with a good pair of headphones, it is a shame that you can not hear Jason Newsted playing)
Nine Inch Nails - Pretty Hate Machine (Sounds great with a pair good of headphones)
Nine Inch Nails - The Fragile
What annoys me most is the supposed remastering of classics and compressing the hell out of the dynamics. A while back when converting my cd's to flac i noticed a couple of track were damaged on my 1991 released "the very best of the eagles" which i was annoyed with but the cd was mistreated back in the days when the popular belief was cd's were almost indestructable and so it was left lying around most of the time ready for quick play, anyway i digress hehe
So I decided to buy the 2003 "the complete greatest hits" eagles cd thinking it might even sound better, how wrong i was. To show exactly why i have included the wave forms loaded into audicity (nothing altered, exact same scales etc) shows the problem with modern mastering.
Top image 1991 release, bottom 2003 release
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8464/image1jh1.jpg)
Ozzy Osbourne - Blizzard Of Ozz [2002 Remaster] (Has to be the worst and well-known remasters ever)
I've heard at this but accidentally I bought the album "No More Tears" with Bonus Tracks and It sound very bad too. The Ozzy Osbourne "Remasters" are the worse RE-masterings that I've seen.
Bad Masterings That I Own:
U2 - How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb (2004) (4º)
Angra - Temple Of Shadows (2004) (3º)
Deep Purple - Purpendicular (1996) (5º)
AC-DC - Stiff Uper Lip (2000) (2º)
Ozzy Osbourne - No More Tears (1991) (1º: The Worse)
Less Than Jake - Borders and Boundaries
SKA is already loud thanks to piercing trumpets, but with an AG of -7.3 dB I think it's the most ruined in my collection. Too bad the songs are so good.
I think recalls should be issued for things like this.
I'm going for The White Stripes - Elephant
Almost all In Flames
So I decided to buy the 2003 "the complete greatest hits" eagles cd thinking it might even sound better, how wrong i was. To show exactly why i have included the wave forms loaded into audicity (nothing altered, exact same scales etc) shows the problem with modern mastering.
Top image 1991 release, bottom 2003 release
That doesn't look bad to me. You've never used any mastering tools, have you? A lot of people automatically assume that since it doesn't
look exactly the way they want it to, it's automatically bad. What did you judge the album with first, your eyes or your ears? I don't have this album, and it might sound like utter crap...however, a moderate bit of limiting (as evidenced by the waveform) is not enough to cry about. I've seen more limited albums than that sound brilliant.
Red Hot Chili Peppers - 'Californication' is certainly among the worst I've heard.
Top ten album gains in my collection (~900 CDs) right now:
-11.97 Big Generator (Yes, Japanese HDCD)
-11.00 Musicology (Prince)
-10.93 The Gold Experience (Prince)
-10.49 Exodus (NPG)
-10.45 The Rainbow Children (Prince)
-10.31 Motown 1's (Various)
-10.10 Feedback (Rush)
-10.00 Os Mutantes (Os Mutantes)
- 9.91 The Vault (Prince)
- 9.90 The Ladder (Yes)
That Eagles waveform doesn't look so bad to me, either. I've seen worse.
Iggy & The Stooges - Raw Power (1997 Remaster) - -16.85
Yikes. I think we have a winner.
Top ten album gains in my collection (~900 CDs) right now:
-11.97 Big Generator (Yes, Japanese HDCD)
-11.00 Musicology (Prince)
-10.93 The Gold Experience (Prince)
-10.49 Exodus (NPG)
-10.45 The Rainbow Children (Prince)
-10.31 Motown 1's (Various)
-10.10 Feedback (Rush)
-10.00 Os Mutantes (Os Mutantes)
- 9.91 The Vault (Prince)
- 9.90 The Ladder (Yes)
About all that Prince stuff in the aural sledgehammer mastering category, speaking as a reasonably hardcore fan myself, it's sad but true. Starting from the Symbol Album in 1992, his stuff has become progressively more brutally mastered. If he was the one pushing for digital compression (which wouldn't be surprising considering his control freakness), then it's ironic that in "Musicology", there's a line that has something about "throw[ing] CDs out the win-da" cos "we don't need them", implying that vinyl sounds better to him - or maybe it's the nostalgia value? Thankfully his pre-1992 back catalogue hasn't yet been mauled by remastering.
... then it's ironic that in "Musicology", there's a line that has something about "throw[ing] CDs out the win-da" cos "we don't need them", implying that vinyl sounds better to him - or maybe it's the nostalgia value? Thankfully his pre-1992 back catalogue hasn't yet been mauled by remastering.
What makes you think he's referring to vinyl? Perhaps it's a reference to downloading music from the internet? I don't know the track so perhaps there's something I'm missing.
One of the worst mastered records I've listened to so far is Marilyn Manson - Eat Me Drink Me.
I've always liked that Manson's records had been well produced (talking about Antichrist Superstar, Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood) but this new record is a complete joke. It is so overcompressed that it really made my head hurt.
We gotta start a website or something that has a database of replaygain values.
For everything.
That way we'd all have an idea as to whether the mastering is halfway decent or not before buying. IMO, it depends a lot on the style of music, but most stuff will end up seriously compromised if the RG is -7 dB or worse. But if it's a greater than 10 dB attenuation, then I think we can all agree that's not going to sound right, unless it's Merzbow or something.
So yeah. Let's start a website for this. Any ideas on how to set it up?
The website itself is not a big deal. But to make submitting values convenient enough for the average user there should be a player plugin that automatically submits those values.
I had no problems setting up the web site, but I have no clue about network programming in languages other than PHP. Furthermore there should be plugins for more players than just foobar2000. So who's gonna write plugins for Winamp, Amarok and so on?
Because we are talking about albums here I would only use album gain values. So, to submit an album you need the artist's name, the album's name and the album gain value. Of course, that would lead to several duplicates due to typos and sometimes there are different gain values because of different editions that have the same name, like the old 80s original version and the new 2000s remastered version. So in the end you'll have lots of trash in the database.
Alternatively you could make submitting manual and provide additional textfields for the user to specify what version it really is. There could also be a comments section. Then, everything would be more community driven. But the disadvantage might be that you only get three submissions a year because people are too lazy to copy and paste a value to a site each time they listen to an album.
But let's hear what others have to say.
P.S.: Maybe this is better discussed in a new thread.
One of the worst CDs I've ever heard is Sevendust's Animosity. Open up any of the tracks in an audio editor and you'll see incredible amounts of clipping. Plus, the liner notes say it was recorded in a barn and it sounds like it.
The worst one in my collection is Ozzy's 2002 remaster of "Randy Rhodes Tribute". I put my collection in shuffle mode, and any time a song from this album would come on it would scream at me like an annoying commercial-EXTREMELY loud, and no difference whatsoever between the quiet parts and the loud parts. The compression is so bad that the feedback and hum are actually turned up to the top between songs. I expect modern studio music to have no dynamics, but this was a live album and it was recorded in 1981. There was no excuse for this 2002 remaster. My other 3 Ozzy albums- Original "Diary", original "Blizzard", and 1995 "No More Tears", are great, but this was horrible.
Has anyone "Back to Black" by Amy Winehouse? I've heard "Tears Dry on Their Own" and the piano(!) chords, drums, orchestra all sound very very distorted. It's really painful to listen to.
Here's the album gains for what of my music collection I've scanned. It might clue you in as to the mastering on some of the more mainstream stuff there.
http://oceanbase.org/data/files/albumgains.txt (http://oceanbase.org/data/files/albumgains.txt)
Any smart people fancy writing a foobar plugin or something, so "the masses" can produce lists like this?
Any smart people fancy writing a foobar plugin or something, so "the masses" can produce lists like this?
Use this as your "
copy command" (browse foobar2000 prefs):
$ifequal(%tracknumber%,01,%__replaygain_album_gain%' '%album artist%' - '%album%' ['%date%']',)
...and select all your tracks then press Ctrl-C in foobar2000 and Ctrl-V in your favorite text editor.
Unfortunately there's no way to stop foobar2000 from adding a newline for each selected track. So your favorite editor better support search&replace of control characters! If that's the case you only have to replace double linefeeds(+carriage returns) with single ones until there are no blank lines left.
Oh and it helps when you sort the tracks within foobar2000 first, using the "album list" generator (browse foobar2000 prefs):The album list generator doesn't sort very well either... it treats the replaygain album gain values as strings!!! As an alternative you can sort the albums by replaygain album peak:
%__replaygain_album_peak%|%album%[ '['%album artist%']']|[[%discnumber%. ]%tracknumber%. ][%track artist - ]%title%
Well, although this isn't perfect, I doubt that writing a plugin for this is really necessary... I mean what's the use? To post the worst/best mastered album at HA.org? Come on! "The masses" don't know HA.org anyway.
EDIT: I just found out that UltraEdit-32's numeric sort can deal with this list just well. Good luck with your favorite text editor.
Once got a chinese art CD that also had a SACD layer and the 16kHz sweep was that annoying on every track it made me wonder how this 16KHz sweep may sound on SACD
It was of this cheap souvenirs you bring back from holiday.
Huang Quin or something like this.
Has anyone "Back to Black" by Amy Winehouse? I've heard "Tears Dry on Their Own" and the piano(!) chords, drums, orchestra all sound very very distorted. It's really painful to listen to.
Agreed. I really like the album, it is a fun bit of retro production, powerful singing and good songwriting. But the amount of clipping on the tracks is egregious.
Too bad. I also hope that Ms. Winehouse survives her twenties; she might really become something.
I also hope that Ms. Winehouse survives her twenties;
Cruel but true. I liked her better when her skin wasn't inked and she wasn't skinny and drunky.
PPS:
Any smart people fancy writing a foobar plugin or something, so "the masses" can produce lists like this?
Actually not such a bad idea after all... what if we wanted to know the RG values of a certain album? An online database where you can submit these values to would be neat!
BUT because albums can be re-issued by the musicians and record companies, there
must be a way to clearly identifiy the album issue or else we will get very different results for the same set of tracks of many albums.
But a rough and fast implementation could be done by sharing text files of one's music collection created by scripts like the ones above... they only have to be maintained "by hand" and merged into one single text file which can be posted in a forum thread. People replying to that thread can post their albums lists there.
worst in my personal collection is Evanescence - Fallen
"Bring me to life" clicks and pops almost like it was recorded from a crappy MP3
"My Immortal" has lots of background distortion
Other than that, all my Staind albums disappoint me, along with SOAD Toxicity and Mesmerize
Man, I remember listening to that album, and all it seemed to me were buzzing and the lady singing. No melody, no drums, just buzzing.
Weird. Fallen didn't seem that bad to me. I rarely got past the first track, though ("Going Under", which I used to like a lot).
It's not scandalously loud, either. 1.5 dB below Linkin Park's Meteora, 3 dB below Californication (which is still the loudest commercially released album in my collection that isn't of the "harsh noise" genre). As a counterexample to this thread, Nine Inch Nails' Year Zero is about the same loudness as Fallen and actually sounds pretty good.
The worst in my collection has to be:
Hypocrisy "Virus" the 2005 release.
The clipping is so bad throughout the whole album that it had to have been f'd up during mastering, I just can't accept the sound as a "feature" of the album. I haven't heard clipping this bad before, and I've heard some bad mastering done before on the verge of being rated unlistenable and annoying do to the clipping - but nothing before where it's been so obvious in headphones, computer speakers, and home stereo.
The RG values (track-based) of the encoded mp3's:
01. XVI = -5.45 dB
02. Warpath = -13.37 dB
03. Scrutinized = -15.14 dB
04. Fearless = -14.18 dB
05. Carving For Another Killing = -13.61 dB
06. Let The Knife Do The Talking = -13.88 dB
07. A Thousand Lies = -13.69 dB
08. Incised Before I've Ceased = -12.48 dB
09. Blooddrenched = -12.45 dB
10. Compulsive Psychosis = -13.69 dB
11. Living To Die = -14.26 dB
------------------------
Total RG value Album-based:
-14.07 dB
Just got the new F. R. David (yes, who sang "Words" 25 (!) years ago) album called "The Wheel" and it already looks *very* squashed at first glance. I can also hear some clipping throughout the songs, but slighter...(yet I might have been too used to all this)
Dynamics (almost) equal 0.
Album gain -9.58 dB
RG values: (track)
(1) -10.66 dB (2) -9.18 dB (3) -8.74 dB (4) -9.42 dB (5) -8.92 dB (6) -9.49 dB (7) -8.02 dB (8) -7.88 dB (9) -9.65 dB (10) -8.74 dB (11) -8.99 dB (12) -10.47 dB
1 and 12 contain the new "Words" versions; so it looks this has been mastered with the aim (??!) of getting near-zero dynamics to be friendly to some AC radio stations which rarely have big jumps in dynamics because it would (allegedly) irritate car drivers while driving...
Graphically it looks that the album has both been squashed to death by digital stuff AND limited because the 0 dB peaks are rare, so the music (or what has been left of it ) has been lowered in gain again.
It's the same static "block" you can see with really squashed albums; but the height is not aligned to digital zero. Beyond the block (upper/lower edge), there IS some space - but no dynamics!
Saosin - Saosin
My Chemical Romance - Three Cheers for Sweet Revenge
Compression ruins a CD much more than clipping ever will. These two albums are barely clipped, but are so compressed that your ears tire out after just 10-15 minutes of listening to them because of all the boosted mids. Add radio station compressors into the mix, and it sounds like pure static over the airwaves.
Iron Maiden - Dance Of Death (Copy Protected Version)
Iron Maiden - Somewhere In Time (Remastered Version)
They are compressed so much, the dynamics, ehh what dynamics!
Lots of clipping also, I could never make a good MP3 rip from them using LAME!
It just sounds Awful!
The Cult 'Beyond Good and Evil'. Everything is so squashed. And the drums have zero punch, they might as well not even be there.
I think it has to go to Californication. I purchased the album and thought it was defective, returned it to the store they gave me another copy and when it listened it was the same. I actually emailed the red hot chili peppers website which was run by Anthony Kiedis' father back in 1999. I sent a standard email asking why the album sounds like it's clipping. I actually recieved a reply from Anthony's father Blackie. He said the band all listened to the final master together and were happy with it.
WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?????
Definitely Californication. I returned my CD to Amazon and got a refund for it.
Iggy & The Stooges - Raw Power (1997 Remaster) - -16.85
Now some would say that this is crappy mastering, but in this case it seems like the mastering is part of the intention. Iggy wanted it this messy, it wasn't someone after the fact. True that this compression would squash and compact the sound of the album, but this album sounds great. It's not dynamic like other music, but it is not supposed to be.
On another note, I don't have the CD in front of me to calculate the RG, but Guitar Wolf's Jet Generation album is pretty damn loud!
Chris Cornell - Carry On . -10.49 db sounds very bad. Again the deception factor makes it worse. One might expect that a more acoustic driven music may mean cooler mastering, But to the contrary in this case its the opposite. Much louder than his soundgarden albums.
Iggy & The Stooges - Raw Power (1997 Remaster) - -16.85
Now some would say that this is crappy mastering, but in this case it seems like the mastering is part of the intention. Iggy wanted it this messy, it wasn't someone after the fact. True that this compression would squash and compact the sound of the album, but this album sounds great. It's not dynamic like other music, but it is not supposed to be.
That's OK as long as there is a *Warning* for the consumer. Just like very HOT food in resturants, medications, energy drinks, alcoholic drinks - They give you a general idea of 'hotness', alcohol content, caffeinne level etc. We have some choice. Not so with CD's as the problem is hidden under the plastic, album art and modern 'remastering' efforts. We don't know much of the audio quality until the play button is pressed. We do know that in general modern music from 1995 ~ present is affected. At least a gain value on the back cover could save many ears and money.
That's OK as long as there is a *Warning* for the consumer. Just like very HOT food in resturants, medications, energy drinks, alcoholic drinks - They give you a general idea of 'hotness', alcohol content, caffeinne level etc. We have some choice. Not so with CD's as the problem is hidden under the plastic, album art and modern 'remastering' efforts. We don't know much of the audio quality until the play button is pressed. We do know that in general modern music from 1995 ~ present is affected. At least a gain value on the back cover could save many ears and money.
I don't think a warning is appropriate. In all cases, music should be a "try before you buy" situation. There are so many other factors to consider other than mastering. Mastering style is a matter of preference and there is no perfect way. Just as there is nor perfect music. It all depends on your opinion. Trying to rate recordings from RG values seems to me to an pseudo-scientific method of applying value to music. I'd hate to see folks turning their noses up at Raw Power just because it's loud. They're missing out on a great album. In a perfect world, you could get your version of Raw Power mastered to your own preferences, but I think we're a long way off from that.
WHAT ABOUT THE LATEST MARK KNOPFLER ALBUM
I HAD TO REDUCE BASS ON MY IPOD AND BOSE HEADPHONE TO LISTEN TO IT
WHAT A SHAME
Mastering style is a matter of preference and there is no perfect way.
This is true, but you're missing something. I'm sure that
most artists don't finish mixing their album and say "ok sweet, now take what we've worked on and suck the dynamics out of it please." That's what's happening with the loudness war! There are plenty of examples where loudness works in favor of the artist, with bands like Deerhoof, Merzbow, Pig Destroyer, et al. Raw Power is another example. But look at, for example, Red Hot Chili Peppers' newer CD releases. The drums sound as thin as paper, there's no punch! BUT when you check out the vinyl release (specifically the Hoffman mastered Stadium Arcadium), all the sudden the drums have punch and the guitar and bass come to life.
Sure, there are plenty of mastering styles. But I prefer to have my music with dynamics intact and no added distortion. I can also do without wonky EQ choices. But hey, someone somewhere has to approve these releases, so maybe we can take comfort in the fact that somebody did like the way it came out (and maybe that's what you're getting at).
I'd hate to see folks turning their noses up at Raw Power just because it's loud. They're missing out on a great album.
There's a forum I read often that has a general hatred (really, it's hate) for digital maximization. It's beyond the point of logic, really--I've seen many an album snubbed just based on the way the waveform looks, without any thought as to how the music actually
sounds. It's a shame, really, and for two reasons. For one, it's sad that CD mastering has been brought to this state (the CD was originally touted as the first consumer medium to be able to reproduce a recording's full dynamic range), and it's also pretty sad that the bias against said situation has turned so nasty that anything even remotely resembling a loud album gets written off immediately.
Trying to rate recordings from RG values seems to me to an pseudo-scientific method of applying value to music. I'd hate to see folks turning their noses up at Raw Power just because it's loud. They're missing out on a great album. In a perfect world, you could get your version of Raw Power mastered to your own preferences, but I think we're a long way off from that.
The issue is not one simply of mastering appropriate to the music. The issue is that the 1997 remaster sounds, to me, like ass. I posted the ReplayGain value, not because ReplayGain is even a consistent indicator of mastering, but because this number is so outrageous, and in its extreme it tells much of the tale.
The original pressing of the CD has a RG value only about half of what the remaster does, and (again IMHO) sounds much better, doesn't have nearly the bass that the remaster does, but the remaster clips very badly, and sounds like so much static.
Trying to rate recordings from RG values seems to me to an pseudo-scientific method of applying value to music. I'd hate to see folks turning their noses up at Raw Power just because it's loud. They're missing out on a great album. In a perfect world, you could get your version of Raw Power mastered to your own preferences, but I think we're a long way off from that.
Using ReplayGain values is a good way to measure how well an album has been mastered actually. It shows whether an album has been loudness mastered or not. If they really wanted "Raw Power" to clip all over the place they would've just clipped at -6dB and left it how it is. But instead they boosted the volume by 6dB and clipped at 0dB. This shows that the clipping was not introduced as a musical element, but instead just to get the album to be as loud as possible.
ReplayGain values should always be around 0dB. Even if clipping is introduced during mastering for some reason (who knows what mastering engineers might do these days) the album should still be mastered at a proper level.
I think I have a new worst mastered CD ever...
"Thrice - The Alchemy Index Vols. I & II Fire & Water"
The album has a Replaygain value of -8.59dB.. but don't let that deceive you because the album is quite dynamic overall. The loud bits have been pushed way over the edge, though. Clipping for minutes at a time.
While Californication actually sounded like it was mastered with a purpose, to make it as loud as possible sacrificing the music if necessary, this just sounds like it was mastered by an idiot. It just doesn't sound good by any stretch of the imagination.
I can confirm this new trend of clipped audio where RG value isn't dramatic. This is worse than the older loud albums that had some dynamics. I am feeling light headed, fatigued mentally and in also my muscles especially with night listening. I only need to listen for 10 minutes or so before it kicks in. Yesterday night I collapsed on my bed for 40 minutes with heavy fatigue after listening to music. I thought it was mental, but I loaded the tracks into audacity and confirmed my problem. The waveform looks like a wall during those parts that annoy me most. Some tracks are an entire wall.
How many people walk into doctor clinics complaining about fatigue these days - many. I wonder if doctors will eventually ask patients if they are listening to modern music. I have decided to not buy most modern albums anymore and I am selling half of my collection. I am trying to get into more instrumental , soundtrack stuff as well.
Nightwish Dark Passion Play. Previous albums where never great, but this one is the worse. RG is around - 10 making it one of their loudest. the mix sounds squashed and there is static like noise on many tracks. There are many complaints on amazon.com - IMO a disaster.
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Passion-Play-Ni...h/dp/B000URDEB0 (http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Passion-Play-Nightwish/dp/B000URDEB0)
Paradise lost - In requiem. RG is -9. Not the loudest album by a long shot , but one of their loudest so far. I always felt that their releases had some some dynamics. Their current label Century Media has given them a 'goth metal' sound ala nightwish but not as bad. A crowded more fatiguing mix that wasn't there a few years back. Drums sound unnatural in many parts and the bass is a mush.
How many people walk into doctor clinics complaining about fatigue these days - many. I wonder if doctors will eventually ask patients if they are listening to modern music.
I think that Declip should be ported to a DSP. It should restore the waveforms pretty well, and hopefully it could cure most of this modern music.
There is no cure other than proper mastering in the first place. You can dress up the waveform with declipping algorithms after the fact, but you will never get back what you lost. And that doesn't even touch the issue of excessive compression, which is often worse than the clipping.
I've played around trying to fix horribly clipped CDs, using Wave Repair for example, but like other people I haven't found a miracle cure. I'm not even sure that there's any real improvement at all, certainly not enough to make the unlistenable listenable.
It's a real shame the damage that is done, and in my opinion audible clipping is worse than overcompression. Overcompression can make music lifeless and fatiguing, but to me heavy clipping can make it totally unlistenable. It's not hyperbole when I say that it gives me a headache...
My biggest musical disappointment in years (and easily the worst sounding CD in my collection) is the 2007 rerelease of Author Author by Scars. They're one of those lost bands of the post-punk/new-wave era that have had a bit of a revival recently. Musically they were a lot of fun, with clever lyrics and an interesting mix of influences. Unfortunately, apart from the hard to find original vinyl release, the remastered CD is the only option.
Information about the rerelease mentioned work at Abbey Road Studios to clean up the original master tapes, rather than mastering from the vinyl like a lot of similar releases. Everything indicated that they were putting time and care into making it a great release. Yet they ruined it with terrible mastering, making it sound far inferior to the original LP.
Replaygain for the album is -12.55, with the loudest track -14.24. Bear in mind that this is relatively mellow new-wave pop, not thrashy hardcore punk, or a dense wall of noise. Using Wave Repair to find clipped samples, it detects tens of thousands of examples of clipping in every track, worse than any other album I've looked at.
People have mentioned the remastered Raw Power as sounding terrible, and it does have an even higher replaygain value, but in my opinion it's nowhere near as bad. Rough and scratchy sound doesn't matter so much for that kind of garage rock, and from what I remember the clipping wasn't actually that bad. It was heavily compressed, but I don't remember Iggy Pop's vocals breaking up into static and sounding totally unnatural.
Here's a screenshot from Audacity that speaks for itself:
(http://img139.imagevenue.com/loc437/th_08643_ScarsWav_122_437lo.jpg) (http://img139.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=08643_ScarsWav_122_437lo.jpg)
This wasn't a carefully selected bad section; zoom in to a loud bit in any track and you find that level of clipping.
The thing I find mind-boggling is that the person who remastered it (Steve McLaughlin) is highly experienced, in 1995 he won a grammy for Best Engineered Album. Presumably all the compression and clipping was deliberate, but I can't understand why anyone would have wanted it to sound like that...
Surely you don't need to be an ultra-picky audiophile type to notice this kind of thing?
That's about the same as Californication then. Album gain is -12.8dB with the loudest track at -14.1dB.
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8121/screenshot34hi9.png)
Believe it or not, this is the same section of the song in the unmastered version (only available in MP3 at 192k):
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8043/screenshot35wg4.png)
If you were to just look at the first waveform and not know what it was, would you think it was music, or just noise?
Believe it or not, this is the same section of the song in the unmastered version (only available in MP3 at 192k):
Man, thanks a lot for this. I didn't even know that version existed. It sounds so good in comparison... I'm finally beginning to enjoy this album without getting a headache!
Don't know about worst mastered CD but Die Sci-Fi on Wednesday 13's Fang Bang cannot be saved by Replaygain due to clipping present in the track. The actual song hits the max and statics...kind of sucks because it sounds like a good song except for that kerrrch noise at certain points. I hope there is an improvement on his new album but I am not holding my breath.
That's about the same as Californication then. Album gain is -12.8dB with the loudest track at -14.1dB.
The replaygain value may be the same, but I think the clipping on the Scars album is much worse. Hard to believe, but parts of it might even make Californication sound good in comparison.
Perhaps the difference is that there actually appears to be less dynamic range compression on the Scars album. Looking at the files in Audacity, the waveform isn't as much of a solid block as a lot of similarly loud albums. Instead of losing dynamics to quite the same degree, it instead has constant and very obvious clipping distortion, which is even worse in my opinion. An example of how just looking at the replaygain stats and zoomed out waveform doesn't tell you the whole story.
Here are a couple of 15 second FLAC samples ripped from the album.
Scars samples on Rapidshare.com, 3.65Mb in total (http://rapidshare.com/files/62823630/ScarsSamples.rar)
It's been a long time since I attempted to listen to Californication, but I don't remember the distortion being quite as obvious and unpleasant as that.
Oh god yeah you are right. That is just obscene. This uses less compression but loads more clipping. Whoever approved that master must have been deaf, surely that is the only explanation.
It's not a CD but rather a record labels digital offerings..
Here's a few samples from the label 'Quosh Records':
Clip 1 (http://quoshrecords.com/snippets/quosh/qsh082a.mp3)
Clip 2 (http://quoshrecords.com/snippets/quosh/qsh084a.mp3)
Clip 3 (http://quoshrecords.com/snippets/quosh/qsh084aa.mp3)
Even for the type of music it is, the clipping is horrendous. Every single Quosh Records tune is like this (unless you buy the vinyl of course).
It's not a CD but rather a record labels digital offerings..
Here's a few samples from the label 'Quosh Records':
Even for the type of music it is, the clipping is horrendous. Every single Quosh Records tune is like this (unless you buy the vinyl of course).
Yeah those sound bad... but are mp3 releases or wav releases. I buy Quosh Records music from Beatport in wav format and nothing like that sound that loud?
It's not a CD but rather a record labels digital offerings..
Here's a few samples from the label 'Quosh Records':
Even for the type of music it is, the clipping is horrendous. Every single Quosh Records tune is like this (unless you buy the vinyl of course).
Yeah those sound bad... but are mp3 releases or wav releases. I buy Quosh Records music from Beatport in wav format and nothing like that sound that loud?
Yeah, Quosh have released a few tunes onto different services like Trackitdown and Beatport that haven't been crazily mastered like that.. but they're starting to release the loud masters on those sites as well.
Anything you buy directly from the Quosh Records site is mastered like the links in my post though.
Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children OST is really bad. I just can't stand listening to it. It feels very 'thin' and clipping can often be heard in "loud" passages. It was even like this in the movie (indeed, the soundtrack is what I mostly dislike about it)!!
Album Gain is about -11dB. I lent it some time ago and am happy that I didn't pay for it. It's the worst mastered soundtrack I know of.
Believe it or not, this is the same section of the song in the unmastered version (only available in MP3 at 192k):
Man, thanks a lot for this. I didn't even know that version existed. It sounds so good in comparison... I'm finally beginning to enjoy this album without getting a headache!
seconded. i purchased the CD so i have no problems attaining this while still being able to sleep at night this is SO much better to listen to, thanks!
This one really surprised me:
John Lennon & Yoko Ono Double Fantasy
Originally Mastered by George Marino
All titles remastered by George Marino, Summer 2000
It's not overly peak-limited and compressed like more modern recordings, but the some of the tracks are totally clipped. For example, "I'm Losing You" has so much clipping, it's unlistenable:
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/9025/doublefantasyclippinggs4.th.png) (http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=doublefantasyclippinggs4.png)
I don't understand how a professional mastering engineer can be this sloppy.
A little OT- but bad ripping software can cause clipping
I ripped my entire collection with WMP (I figured lossless is lossless so no need for EAC) Most were OK, but a few of my CDs had HORRENDOUS clipping (to the point of hearing skips and squeaks instead of words- extreme clipping showed on wave editors for the unlistenable parts),but Google searches did not show any complaints about those albums. I saw a smudge on the "worst" CD, cleaned it with eyeglasses cleaner, listened, and it was fine. I re-ripped it (with itunes-not EAC but it does have some error checking) and it was fine. I guess I am not the expert I thought I was. Now I'll have to get EAC and re-rip everything again.
I feel like an idiot now.
I don't understand how a professional mastering engineer can be this sloppy.
I've always found it totally mind boggling. It's not like clipping is hard to detect, or that it's only audible to "golden-eared" audiophiles with super expensive equipment. I've never been able to understand how an engineer with pride in his work could be happy with such a defective product.
Maybe I could understand them overdriving metal or punk like that, but I've heard clipping on all kinds of music, even mellow pop these days. For example Tragedy Rocks by The Crimea (indie pop similar to Belle and Sebastian), has an albumgain of -9.56 and pretty heavy clipping (much more than I'd expect considering the loudness). Why would a mastering engineer choose to do that with music that isn't intended to be loud and abrasive?
I wonder how often it's a case of the mastering engineer making that choice, and how often it's totally out of their hands?
Recently I've been a bit obsessed with early 80s post-punk and new-wave bands and I've bought quite a few albums, including recent remasters. The loudness is very inconsistent, ranging from very quiet albums that could have been mastered in the 80s, to some of the most compressed and distorted albums I own.
One thing I found interesting is that the recent albums I bought from certain indie labels didn't suffer from clipping or excessive compression. Here are some albumgain values from CDs I've ripped to my PC:
Cherry Red Records:
Artery - Into the Garden (2006) -4.35db
Glaxo Babies - Dreams Interrupted (2006) -6.14db
Pillows and Prayers (label sampler) (2000) -3.13db
LTM Records:
Ludus - The Damage (2002) -2.49db
The Night Watch (label sampler) (2001) -3.79db
Section 25 - Illuminus Illumina (2001) -3.07db
The mastering credits are different for these CDs, they aren't mastered by a single in-house engineer. The question is why they are all less compressed than the average major label CD released at the same time?
I remember reading an interview with Scott Davies, about the release of the Artery compilation Into the Garden that he mastered. I seem to remember him commenting on the lack of label interference; they just sent him the masters, let him get on with it, and that's what ended up on the CD. Maybe that's the case with all the releases on certain indie labels, and if the engineer is left to do their job they'll typically master the albums with decent dynamics and no clipping.
In comparison, I've heard stories about major labels heavily tweaking releases after the mastering engineer has done his job, or insisting that he makes it as loud as possible. Based on what I know about the music industry, I'm certainly more inclined to blame the record labels for thinking that louder=better and not caring about defects like clipping, rather than blaming incompetent mastering engineers...
A little OT- but bad ripping software can cause clipping
I ripped my entire collection with WMP (I figured lossless is lossless so no need for EAC) Most were OK, but a few of my CDs had HORRENDOUS clipping (to the point of hearing skips and squeaks instead of words- extreme clipping showed on wave editors for the unlistenable parts),but Google searches did not show any complaints about those albums. I saw a smudge on the "worst" CD, cleaned it with eyeglasses cleaner, listened, and it was fine. I re-ripped it (with itunes-not EAC but it does have some error checking) and it was fine. I guess I am not the expert I thought I was. Now I'll have to get EAC and re-rip everything again.
I feel like an idiot now.
I don't think the ripping software per-se caused clipping. Instead, the codec used to encode the ripped wav introduced clipping. Check out mp3gain.
Yeah, I'm sure in most cases the extreme clipression is because of the labels, although I've heard stories about clueless bands specifically asking for a CD louder than x album.
Foo Fighters - One By One
John Mayer - Heavier Things
I do agree.The bass in Heavier Things is really .....maybe should I call it noise?
Anyhow,the rhythm is still good...what a pity...
A recent really bad mastered album is Amy Winehouse's Back to Black. It's terrible, but it's great music though ...
A little OT- but bad ripping software can cause clipping
I ripped my entire collection with WMP (I figured lossless is lossless so no need for EAC) Most were OK, but a few of my CDs had HORRENDOUS clipping (to the point of hearing skips and squeaks instead of words- extreme clipping showed on wave editors for the unlistenable parts),but Google searches did not show any complaints about those albums. I saw a smudge on the "worst" CD, cleaned it with eyeglasses cleaner, listened, and it was fine. I re-ripped it (with itunes-not EAC but it does have some error checking) and it was fine. I guess I am not the expert I thought I was. Now I'll have to get EAC and re-rip everything again.
I feel like an idiot now.
Bad
ripping cannot cause clipping, however bad encoding or normalisation processes can (which may or may not be integrated into the ripping program). A decent normaliser will have the option to dynamically compress the waveform if it clips which is always preferred to saturation, that is if you absolutely have to normalise. I use EAC to rip and automatically encode to FLAC and then I use foobar2000 to Replay Gain scan as an album (I don't think it's possible to scan album gain automatically when encoding tracks with EAC).
Back to Black does sound shockingly bad but I can't actually work out why. It's riddled with clipping but on inspection of the wave form it isn't digital clipping from the mastering process. I wonder if they used a rather harsh analogue distortion filter for the whole album as some kind of effect.
Edit:
I just read over at Steve Hoffman forums that Back to Black has been released in a well mastered form! http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=132410 (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=132410)
However, I have listened and although there is less digital clipping there is still that distortion all over the album which I find sounds bad. But still, at least you can listen to this album at the same volume level as your other CDs now.
Eat To The Beat "Remastered" has to be one of the worst:
Hardest Part for example was -12dB replay gain!
see: Loudness Wars: Satan Is My Sound Engineer
http://www.giantpygmy.net/sections/pause/a...neer_large.html (http://www.giantpygmy.net/sections/pause/archive/20071126_satanismysoundengineer_large.html)
and for comparison between remaster and pre-remastering:
http://www.giantpygmy.net/sections/pause/a...pare_large.html (http://www.giantpygmy.net/sections/pause/archive/20071126_satanismysoundengineer_compare_large.html)
"A visual guide to ruining back catalogues through "remastering" (read compressing the crap out of already well produced music to make it sound louder than the competition - an insane race to the top (in terms of dB) at the expense of the artists' creations)."
It's sad --- I'd like to see a trading/exchange with 2nd hand CD's buy, rip, sell on and only dealing in original mixes - no remasters.
There seems a common theme from the stuff I've heard - it's as though they think to themselves - if I can make the highhat as loud as possible then I've brough some digital clarity to the mix (cos, I know the Ramones were really big on the highhat ). It sounds horrible.
Leave Home Remastered & Expanded by The Ramones is another atrocity.
C.
Has anyone "Back to Black" by Amy Winehouse? I've heard "Tears Dry on Their Own" and the piano(!) chords, drums, orchestra all sound very very distorted. It's really painful to listen to.
Word
I have never herd anything so distorted, I'm not really an audiophile but too me it is just obviouse, I have herd albums that are even louder than that but they don't contain distortion like that, so I can't work out what went wrong there, or how nobody noticed there mistake.
The Klaxons - Myths on the Near Future, however that does respond well to being clipped, reduced and attacked! So do the Coldplay Albums
Yeah, I'm sure in most cases the extreme clipression is because of the labels, although I've heard stories about clueless bands specifically asking for a CD louder than x album.
They should just show them that Youtube video, I think its the best easiest to understand explanation I have ever seen.
It is possible to tag albums on Amazon as "Victim of the Loudness war" I think more people should use it.
Okay, worst mastered cd ever is Clubland X-treme Hardcore 4. 2 out of the 3 CD's are horribly distorted, the other is fine..
Here's a sample of CD1. (http://envias.net/cxh4.mp3)
I contacted the (much respected by me) producer/DJ who mixed CD 1 and asked how he could do this to his music, this is his response:
Hi Patrick
Thanks for the message... I hear what your saying with regards to the CD.
I'm pretty gutted about it myself... When my mix left my studio it was mastered to my spec and sounded fine.
But unfortunately they sent it to a company called 'Factory' and they obviously mastered the master. I'm not sure why the mastering house felt it necassary to do so as it already had a good amount of compression and volume.
Anyway the end result is the distortion.
Apologies if it's ruined it for you but like i said i'm not over the moon about it myself.
I now need to make sure the same doesn't happen to my solo album.
Cheers
Darren
Here's a cool site, don't mind the Finnish as there's plenty of data and images.
http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/anukaa/Lou...udness_War.html (http://kotisivu.dnainternet.net/anukaa/Loudness_War/Loudness_War.html)
http://loudnesswar.tiira.net/ (http://loudnesswar.tiira.net/)
Any chance that we could do a list of what is and isn't available at a hogher quality on Vinyl, ie I hear some records, the Vinyl is just as compressed as the CD like Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not, and others the Vinyl sounds much better like Californication. It could go in the Wiki.
I have to say that now that I have disconnected my Alto HPA6 headphone amplifier which the line outs from my Echo Layla3G went to. It then went to my SM Pro Audio M-Patch 2 which I have also disconnected. I use RCA cables (Canare L-2T2S cable, with TS adapters from the soundcard) straight to my Tapco S8 monitors and now I get crystal clear sound which I have missed for quite some time. All the records that before sounded dull and missed high frequencies are now the absolutely best sounding music I have. All the rest music I have now sound like they've put an 6dB high shelf EQ on it.
I guess that now when the sound is so much better the Pixies' Doolittle will be too bright and harsh. Wait, no, but the vocals in the beginning of Hey sounds a little sharp. Now, all music needs a de-esser.
Have a nice Christmas and a hopefully not too drunk New Years Eve.
We should do a poll and give out awards to the best and worst masterd CD's of 2007, we could have a thread for nomination, then anther for the poll, then I will print out some sarcastic looking certificate and post it to the record company!
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Californication
Welcome to HA!
Did you read the rest of the thread?
I'd have to agree with some of the earlier posts
Metallica - St. Anger is probably the worst mastered CD i've come accross though Slipknot - The Subliminal Verses gives it a good run for its money!
Whats is the worst mastered CD [your opinions] ??
For me it has to be Madonna's "Confessions On A Dance Floor".
The processing is truly dreadful, the worst I have ever heard. Some of the songs have so much compression they sound like wishy-washy MP3s. I took the album straight back to the store and got a full refund.
Having watched Muse on 'Later' a few months back I rushed out (or rather, rushed to Amazon.co.uk) to buy a copy of 'Black Holes ....', pretty much knowing what to expect (the first mainstream release I've bought in over a year - the last was QOTSA's "Lullabys To Paralyze")..
(http://i1.tinypic.com/7xv7gk7.jpg)
Zoom, amplitiude scale at +6dB for clarity;
(http://i12.tinypic.com/865m0i9.jpg)
Yes. it sounds dreadful.
Surprsingly, album-gain is 'only' -10.15 (this track is -10.42), and given the massive amount of clipping that occurs throughout (at 0dB), it would appear that the album was probably well recorded and mastered but has simply been 'normalized' to a +ve value, somewhere around +6dB, immediately prior to glass-mastering to achieve the desired "loudness".
This isn't "mastering", it's an insult, and of course it's by no means unusual.
(edit >> BTW, the track is "Map of the Problematique", but they're all pretty much the same.)
That hurts my ears just by looking at it.
Believe it or not, this is the same section of the song in the unmastered version (only available in MP3 at 192k):
Where is this 'unmastered' mp3 version of Californication available from? Amazon or some other website or the more darker corners of the internet?
My vote would be Rhino's reissues of "Chicago 16" and "Chicago 17." My main complaint with these two reissues is not the sound quality, per se. My main complaint is that whoever was in charge of reissuing these CD's used the "radio edits" of a couple of songs instead of the original album version.
My vote would be Rhino's reissues of "Chicago 16" and "Chicago 17." My main complaint with these two reissues is not the sound quality, per se. My main complaint is that whoever was in charge of reissuing these CD's used the "radio edits" of a couple of songs instead of the original album version.
"The Best of Foghat" does the same thing. It has a 3:56 version of "Slow Ride" (less than half of the song's 8:14 length) with a fade-out/trail-off ending. They took the band's best-known song, a song known and loved for its powerful ending, chopped off the last half, and faded out what was left. Whoever put that song's title on the album's label should be in prison for fraud.
"Map of the Problematique"
Zoom, amplitiude scale at +6dB for clarity;
(http://i12.tinypic.com/865m0i9.jpg)
Yes. it sounds dreadful.
I think we have a winner:
Muse Black Holes and Revelations
?
"Map of the Problematique"
Zoom, amplitiude scale at +6dB for clarity;
Yes. it sounds dreadful.
I think we have a winner:
Muse Black Holes and Revelations
?
I even notice excessive clipping when the video of "Starlight" is played on MTV.
On the other hand, the song is one of the most listened to tracks, according to last.fm (http://www.last.fm/music/+charts/track/). This shows that the "general public" doesn't care. Time to create some awareness!!
This shows that the "general public" doesn't care.
No, most people are unable to say exactly what is bugging them, so they take it as a placebo probably.
This shows that the "general public" doesn't care.
No, most people are unable to say exactly what is bugging them, so they take it as a placebo probably.
I don't think so. Ask a random person about the latest Muse album and they will say it sounds very good (loud and in your face). Nothing is bugging them. Been there, done that.
I don't think so. Ask a random person about the latest Muse album and they will say it sounds very good (loud and in your face). Nothing is bugging them. Been there, done that.
Depressing, isn't it?
I don't think so. Ask a random person about the latest Muse album and they will say it sounds very good (loud and in your face). Nothing is bugging them. Been there, done that.
Depressing, isn't it?
Yeah. I've given up. Others seem more worried about me than my so called loudnesswar.
This shows that the "general public" doesn't care.
No, most people are unable to say exactly what is bugging them, so they take it as a placebo probably.
I think you hit the nail right on the head there thanks for that!
Although someone else reckons most people think it sound good, I cant speak for most people, but before I had herd of the loudness war I was wondering what was going on with the drums in modern music, and I would listen a lot more to stuff that I now know to have more dynamic range and often
skipping tracks that didn't even though I like them automatically without thinking about it!
Even though someone else reckons most people thinks it sound good, this is probably because they have never herd it any better, so a good example is to play them an example of what I think Smells Like Teen Spirit would sound like if released today! (http://ajuk.org/Smells%20like%20shite.mp3)
Anyone heard the new mars volta album "the bedlam in goliath"? The productin is awful and sound waaaay too much compressed. The sound also seem to lack high and bass. It's really irritating after a couple of songs.
I own plenty albums from Black Metal bands in-which the mastering sounds very raw and under produced, but then again that's how they wanted it to sound. The worst I own is easily Platters of Splatter by Exhumed. I don't even think they did any remastering on the album since it's just a compilation really of their early work from demos. Every song (around 50 or so) sounds like a tape demo does.
I'm pretty new to all this terminology, so could someone please explain exactly what is meant by 'clipping'?
As for really loud albums, anyone heard Illinois by Sufjan Stevens? I always have to turn my volume way down when listening to that album.
I'm pretty new to all this terminology, so could someone please explain exactly what is meant by 'clipping'?
As for really loud albums, anyone heard Illinois by Sufjan Stevens? I always have to turn my volume way down when listening to that album.
Digital music files are a representation of the audio waves which make up music.
There are only a finite amount of levels that can be represented by a given file. Clipping occurs when a part of the file is so loud that it has exceeded these levels and therefore has been clipped. When this does happen, part of the wave is flattened out and some of the audio data is lost.
You can visibly see where this has occurred for example in the picture of the Muse track a few posts up.
In terms of audio, it gives an unpleasant crackling static noise which makes tracks 'tiring' to listen to.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio))
I'm pretty new to all this terminology, so could someone please explain exactly what is meant by 'clipping'?
As for really loud albums, anyone heard Illinois by Sufjan Stevens? I always have to turn my volume way down when listening to that album.
Digital music files are a representation of the audio waves which make up music.
There are only a finite amount of levels that can be represented by a given file. Clipping occurs when a part of the file is so loud that it has exceeded these levels and therefore has been clipped. When this does happen, part of the wave is flattened out and some of the audio data is lost.
You can visibly see where this has occurred for example in the picture of the Muse track a few posts up.
In terms of audio, it gives an unpleasant crackling static noise which makes tracks 'tiring' to listen to.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio))
ok, thanks a lot for clearing that up. I did notice the flattening on the Muse track.
I have noticed the crackling static noise but I didn't realise that was the cause of it, or that it was purposeful. Saddening really.
I don't think so. Ask a random person about the latest Muse album and they will say it sounds very good (loud and in your face). Nothing is bugging them. Been there, done that.
Depressing, isn't it?
If you think that BHaR is depressing, take a listen to the leaked HAARP. Unless whoever ripped it did something intentionally stupid, then expect a lot worse.
I think more of you people should be active in reviewing stuff on Ciao, Amazon and iTunes!
What about the good, Franz Ferdinand's first album?
Surley HAARP isn't worse than BHAR, (big muse fan here) the first Muse live album had very little compresion on the CD, and the last DVD wasn't too bad, hopefully the DVD wont be too bad and I'll rip the audio off that.
Surley HAARP isn't worse than BHAR, (big muse fan here) the first Muse live album had very little compresion on the CD, and the last DVD wasn't too bad, hopefully the DVD wont be too bad and I'll rip the audio off that.
The CD and the DVD each cover a different night. Oh well. I was there on saturday and the sound in the Stadium was shocking so the CD might bring back memories
I bought Oasis Definitely Maybe, the Dualdisc version (made in 2004), quite a while go. That was before I learnt abut the loudness war and what remastering really meant!
I saw this CD being mentioned a couple of times in recent posts and mentions the dynamic range has been compressed. For those who have the original 1994 CD, does it looks as compressed as this?
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/lan...isrocknroll.jpg (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/landofarh/Uploads/oasisrocknroll.jpg)
It's the first track off the album and if the original 1994 isn't as bad as this, I might consider buying the original CD instead.
For those who have the original 1994 CD, does it looks as compressed as this?
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/lan...isrocknroll.jpg (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/landofarh/Uploads/oasisrocknroll.jpg)
That's not compressed!
THIS:
http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s...rchanddenm7.png (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot01searchanddenm7.png)
is compressed!
For those who have the original 1994 CD, does it looks as compressed as this?
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/lan...isrocknroll.jpg (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/landofarh/Uploads/oasisrocknroll.jpg)
That's not compressed!
THIS:
http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=s...rchanddenm7.png (http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot01searchanddenm7.png)
is compressed!
It's occupying the whole screen!
So how exactly do you tell compressed? I thought it occurs when the volume of the track stays constant throughout the song?
So how exactly do you tell compressed? I thought it occurs when the volume of the track stays constant throughout the song?
Your sample is compressed, I was tongue-in-cheek.
I bought Oasis Definitely Maybe, the Dualdisc version (made in 2004), quite a while go. That was before I learnt abut the loudness war and what remastering really meant!
I saw this CD being mentioned a couple of times in recent posts and mentions the dynamic range has been compressed. For those who have the original 1994 CD, does it looks as compressed as this?
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/lan...isrocknroll.jpg (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j228/landofarh/Uploads/oasisrocknroll.jpg)
It's the first track off the album and if the original 1994 isn't as bad as this, I might consider buying the original CD instead.
Whats Oasis Vinyl like?
Someone mentioned raising awareness about the loudness war.
I'm hoping to do my part with this:
More info at this thread: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=62225 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=62225)
It's a long shot, but I'm hoping it'll at least help move us in the right direction a little bit.
///Leif
I have a question. Usually if a the CD is reissued, would it be a casualty of the loudness war?
For example, the stone roses
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stone-Roses/dp/B00009YNGI (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stone-Roses/dp/B00009YNGI)
It says this CD was made in 2004 but the original was released in 1989. There doesn't seem to be any mention of remaster or anything so would it be safe to buy the newer pressing?
I have a question. Usually if a the CD is reissued, would it be a casualty of the loudness war?
For example, the stone roses
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stone-Roses/dp/B00009YNGI (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stone-Roses/dp/B00009YNGI)
It says this CD was made in 2004 but the original was released in 1989. There doesn't seem to be any mention of remaster or anything so would it be safe to buy the newer pressing?
I would advice that you listen to the re-issue first and check for any clipping and/or over-compression.
By the way, the new R.E.M. album is also mastered pretty loud (too loud actually). Album gain -10.91 dB. There is a discussion about it on Murmurs.com (http://www.murmurs.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1904967#post1904967), interesting to read people's opinions.
In general, people who don't know about the loudness war do not seem to care. It's loud so it is good right?
What program do I need to get an output like this: http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif (http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif) ?
I would advice that you listen to the re-issue first and check for any clipping and/or over-compression.
So even though it isn't officially re-released or remastered (unlike recently re-released U2 Joshua Tree), there is still a chance of them modifying the original record to create compression and clipping?
Getting a bit difficult to buy CDs these days!
I have been wanting to buy a few Beatles CD, but I read from wikipedia that the mastering techniques on those CDs are outdated and remasters are coming out soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatles_discography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatles_discography) (Under Historical Background)
I have a few other 80s CDs as well and they sound alright to me. So my question is, is it worth waiting for the remasters or should I buy the old 80s masters, just in case the remasters end up with clipping, etc?
In response to the discussion about the mastering of R.E.M.'s Accelerate a nice article is written by Drew Crumbaugh:
http://remring.com/index.php?option=com_co...0&Itemid=26 (http://remring.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=770&Itemid=26)
In response to the discussion about the mastering of R.E.M.'s Accelerate a nice article is written by Drew Crumbaugh:
http://remring.com/index.php?option=com_co...0&Itemid=26 (http://remring.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=770&Itemid=26)
I have Automatic For the People, And I thought the mastering on that is great, they made that as loud as it possible could be without damaging the sound quality. ei making sure there is no barely audible single loud bit bringing the overall volume down then peal level normalising, same goes for alot of other albums from that eara though such as Nevermind, I do have a couple from about that time that are overly quiet though.
I have been wanting to buy a few Beatles CD, but I read from wikipedia that the mastering techniques on those CDs are outdated and remasters are coming out soon.
Yeah, they're outdated -- they retain the full dynamic range of the source tapes. That's so old-fashioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatles_discography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatles_discography) (Under Historical Background)
The wiki is dumb. It fails to take into account that the Stones catalog, for example, was rarely if ever mastered from low-generationmaster tapes, prior to the msot recent catalog remasters. Certainly George Martin put more care into the Beatles on CD, than anyone did on the original Beach Boys , Stones, or Dylan CD releases
I have a few other 80s CDs as well and they sound alright to me. So my question is, is it worth waiting for the remasters or should I buy the old 80s masters, just in case the remasters end up with clipping, etc?
I would buy a set of the current versions, just in case.
What program do I need to get an output like this: http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif (http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif) ?
One that allows you to travel back in time?
In response to the discussion about the mastering of R.E.M.'s Accelerate a nice article is written by Drew Crumbaugh:
http://remring.com/index.php?option=com_co...0&Itemid=26 (http://remring.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=770&Itemid=26)
I have Automatic For the People, And I thought the mastering on that is great, they made that as loud as it possible could be without damaging the sound quality.
I agree the mastering on Automatic for the People is just excellent (so is the mixing, and the music by the way).
It's a shame that their latest album (Accelerate) is a Loudness War Victim, though.
I noticed last years winner of Grammy Award for Best Engineered Album, is also one of the albums picked out on the WP article on the loudness war, is that award based on Vinyl versions?
Opeth - Still Life
Worst mastering ever, good thing they remastered it recently. The remaster came out like, 1 month ago.
Hi, long time reader, first time poster.
I was very unpleasantly surprised with a few recent releases that are awfully mixed and/or mastered.
So here's my current top 5:
1. Duffy - Rockferry. This girl's album is very promoted over here in Poland, with lots of radio and tv presence (the single "Mercy"). I was wondering how this album would sound and... well... it doesn't sound any better compared to listening to the song "Mercy" on radio in mono.
In the first song, it's apparent that they used SO much dynamics compression on the singer's voice it's a pain to listen to. When she sings louder, the only thing that gets louder is the reverberation or echo in the background - sounds really, really bad.
2. Avantasia - The Scarecrow. Their previous releases, The Metal Opera part 1 and 2 were loud, but besides brick-wall hard limiting the dynamics were pretty much ok and each instrument, each singer had it's place. This new release is... well... tragic. A pure example of how to destroy music. I never listened to the whole album in one sitting. I always turn it off after the third track, which starts with a guitar, but when the rest of the band starts playing, instead of getting at least a little bit louder, it actually gets quiter. I could live with that, only if the sound quality was okay... but it isn't. The songs sound, I don't know, flat? The most fascinating thing about this album is that Tobias Sammet, the project leader, is very pleased with the production and said in one of the interviews that the band spent a lot of money to get "good" production...
3. Porcupine Tree - Fear of a Blank Planet. The production is pretty good in overall, but sometimes, due to the loudness war, the drums disappear below the wall of guitars. Thankfully, the DVD-Audio 5.1 mix sounds surprisingly well - and the drums which disappear on the stereo mix, sound very good: properly loud and audible. Steven Wilson even got a Grammy nomination for the 5.1 mix.
4. Antimatter - Leaving Eden. The album may not be as loud as other recent releases, but somebody totally ruined the drums. I don't know if it was during the mastering or during the mixing, but the drums sound... well, they just don't sound You can achieve the same effect using hard limiting at, say, -15dB (I don't know much about audio production, but I like playing with audio editing).
5. Riverside - Second Life Syndrome. I don't know what the band and what the engineers were thinking. I also think this album is not as loud as other rock/metal music nowadays, but... everytime there's some keyboards and guitars at the same time, the drums fade out... it's extremely annoying - the drums' loudness is simply reduced by a lot when everybody in the band is playing at the same time.
That should be it
3. Porcupine Tree - Fear of a Blank Planet. The production is pretty good in overall, but sometimes, due to the loudness war, the drums disappear below the wall of guitars.
You may dislike the sound but it's definitely not related to the loudness war. Just look at the wave form and the ReplayGain values. There's no "clipression" whatsoever.
Steven Wilson even stated this:
I have gradually taken over all the mastering of my projects and this is the first PT album that I have mastered because I was not happy with the way that professional mastering houses were mastering it. There is a tendency to make everything very loud, to try and get volume at the sacrifice of dynamics and too much treble and too much bass and not enough of that warmth in the middle. You know the pressure has been there from record companies to make CD's sound louder because they notionally sound more exciting that way. But over a period of 50-60 mins it really does start to tire your ears out, and that has been a problem with this CD generation, basically your ears get tired quicker.
Source: http://www.caerllysimusic.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d77.html (http://www.caerllysimusic.co.uk/contents/en-uk/d77.html)
3. Porcupine Tree - Fear of a Blank Planet. The production is pretty good in overall, but sometimes, due to the loudness war, the drums disappear below the wall of guitars.
You may dislike the sound but it's definitely not related to the loudness war. Just look at the wave form and the ReplayGain values. There's no "clipression" whatsoever.
Ok, maybe it's not a loudness war issue, but... why are the drums disappearing under the guitars on "Way Out Of Here", during the heavy part in the middle? On the DVD-A 5.1 the drums sound a lot better, and it's not just because it's 5.1 and there's more speakers to put sound in... the effect of disappearing drums does not occur on older stereo releases, so I thought it's a loudness war thing. I have to say I never looked at the waveforms for this album.
Hmm, I think it's a matter of taste here. While the drums in the stereo mix are indeed much less prominent, it contributes to the overwhelming character of the (wall of) sound. It somehow fits to the song. But If you ask me, I also prefer the 5.1 mix.
Nine Inch Nails - 2008 - The Slip
At least it's free.
Cheers, Slipstreem.
Nine Inch Nails - 2008 - The Slip
I downloaded the high resolution version (24-bit, 96 kHz). Album gain is -9.39 dB. The waveforms of the majority of tracks look awful. And they call it audiophile.
By the way, the new R.E.M. album is also mastered pretty loud (too loud actually). Album gain -10.91 dB. There is a discussion about it on Murmurs.com (http://www.murmurs.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1904967#post1904967), interesting to read people's opinions.
In general, people who don't know about the loudness war do not seem to care. It's loud so it is good right?
A bit OT again, but does anyone have the 2005 re-issue of Automatic, the one which includes a DVD? Has the CD been affected by the loudness war?
What program do I need to get an output like this: http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif (http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif) ?
One that allows you to travel back in time?
I think he means a visual output like that. And I'm afraid I don't know, but it would actually be quite interesting to find out (probably not useful, but interesting.) So if anyone what software that is then I'd be interested too, although I guess it wouldn't be too hard to knock one up in Octave or similar.
Nine Inch Nails - 2008 - The Slip
I downloaded the high resolution version (24-bit, 96 kHz). Album gain is -9.39 dB. The waveforms of the majority of tracks look awful. And they call it audiophile.
why is the album gain value an issue? and how can anybody seriously say its the worst mastered cd lol
What program do I need to get an output like this: http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif (http://www.linaeum.com/images/audioslave.gif) ?
One that allows you to travel back in time?
I think he means a visual output like that. And I'm afraid I don't know, but it would actually be quite interesting to find out (probably not useful, but interesting.) So if anyone what software that is then I'd be interested too, although I guess it wouldn't be too hard to knock one up in Octave or similar.
Don't you know Cool Edit?
I am sad to include this one here:
Def Leppard - Song From The Sparkle Lounge
The RG values for a few songs exceed -10dB.
"Hallucinate" starts with just a guitar playing and my Foobar's VU meter is at 0dB almost constantly. Where's space for the rest of the band here?
The Pigeon Detectives - Emergency has an album gain of -11.38. The worst track comes out as -11.98!
What is annoying is that the vinyl is also mastered very poorly (sounds muddled).
Nine Inch Nails - 2008 - The Slip
I downloaded the high resolution version (24-bit, 96 kHz). Album gain is -9.39 dB. The waveforms of the majority of tracks look awful. And they call it audiophile.
why is the album gain value an issue? and how can anybody seriously say its the worst mastered cd lol
The album gain is measured across the whole album, and is designed to give the same gain adjustment to each track, on the assumption that they have been mastered consistently relative to each other. Consider, for example, the effect of using different per-track gains on a continuously-mixed album.
An album gain that strong is pretty darn bad, and suggests that at least several of the individual tracks are worse than that.
The album gain is measured across the whole album, and is designed to give the same gain adjustment to each track, on the assumption that they have been mastered consistently relative to each other. Consider, for example, the effect of using different per-track gains on a continuously-mixed album.
An album gain that strong is pretty darn bad, and suggests that at least several of the individual tracks are worse than that.
But how does loudness translate into bad mastering?! I am certain you can create the lousiest mastering and still get a replay gain of zero. If this was a list of the loudest CDs, then I'd agree with using the gain value to identify them, but this is about how the music SOUNDS... . Is it not?
But how does loudness translate into bad mastering?! I am certain you can create the lousiest mastering and still get a replay gain of zero.
I'm sure you could - but in the wild this is not what is most often seen. There is a strong correlation seen between insane replaygain values and insanely compressed mastering.
So, while you are correct, I think it is not unexpected that outrageous replaygain values are used as a shorthand when discussing "poor" mastering.
I was thinking about this myself the other day. I have a few heavy metal albums with high replay gain values (at or near -9.0dB) that sound really good and don't feel overcompressed.
But when the RG values exceed -9, reaching -10 or even over -12 (Airborne - Running' Wild album - just when I thought the loudness war can't get any further) it's impossible to achieve good mastering. This often results in volume changes of certain instruments when another one starts playing - like keyboards, orchestration or a chorus, can lower the loudness of drums (I hate it especialy, since I love drums) or the guitars, which sounds very annoying.
When an album annoys you, even when you love the songs, it has to be bad mastering
Not only the Airborne shocked me with it's -12dB album gain.
(just take a look at this:
[a href="http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=isthisshitmusictq0.jpg" target="_blank"]
From the CDs I own :
Red Hot Chili Peppers : "Californication"
Foo Fighters : "One by One"
Queens of the Stone Age : "Songs for the Deaf"
I think they are already mentioned here .
All of the Musica Transonic discs that were mastered by Nanjo Asahito. XYOSFBIGKOU is the only listenaable one, and that was done by Yoshide. Here is a sample from the 1st Musica Transonic disc mastered by Nanjo. I can't tell you what it's called cause it's in Greek: 30 sec sample. (http://www.mediafire.com/?ixmn2czyy0f)
I tried to get a refund from the record company (P.S.F.), but all I got was a polite PFO. It really is terrible.
I read in many articles, that the 2006 debut album of the Arctic Monkeys is one of the biggest casualties of the loudness war.
But it isn't that bad, it has only a -9.26dB RG. Yeah, it is bad if you were to be comparing to albums of the 80s and 90s, but I also own CDs from similar genres released before the Arctic Monkeys that have a more negative dB value, like -10 or -11dB!
...not to mention that the original bass and drum tracks by Daisley and Kerslake were replaced with recordings by Trujillo and Bordin.
Really? I had no idea not even the same tracks? why would they do that? I knew something was off but I had no clue they were different recordings!
Why can't I know information like this before throwing my money away?
I know it's late to talk about it but I guess there was confusion.
There are different remastered versions of Blizzard of Ozz (1980). One is from 1995 (22 bits SBM), other 2002 with rewritten drums and bass.
Fear Factory - Transgression (Alot of clicks and the bonus live tracks were from a lossy audio codec source like mp3 @ 32 kbps)
I noticed that too. Previous albums like Archetype, Digimortal, Obsolete and Demanufacture are well done.
I analysed the two tracks that Metallica released as singles from their upcoming new album and I must say that I'm really really disappointed. Mastering-wise they have learned nothing at all since "St. Anger". The RG value of "The Day That Never Comes" is -13.7 dB and "My Apocalypse" doesn't fare much better with -11.3 dB. After TDTNC's introductory phase the peakmeter in foobar2000 moves in a range of about three pixels (refresh rate of 5 ms with zero hold time!). That's far less than 1 dB. Even Hypocrisy's Scrutinized (RG: -15 dB) doesn't behave in such an extreme way.
Edit: Here's a picture of the waveform (http://www.devir.de/temp/metallica-tdtnc.png).
I analysed the two tracks that Metallica released as singles from their upcoming new album and I must say that I'm really really disappointed. Mastering-wise they have learned nothing at all since "St. Anger". The RG value of "The Day That Never Comes" is -13.7 dB and "My Apocalypse" doesn't fare much better with -11.3 dB. After TDTNC's introductory phase the peakmeter in foobar2000 moves in a range of about three pixels (refresh rate of 5 ms with zero hold time!). That's far less than 1 dB. Even Hypocrisy's Scrutinized (RG: -15 dB) doesn't behave in such an extreme way.
Edit: Here's a picture of the waveform (http://www.devir.de/temp/metallica-tdtnc.png).
Ah Rick Rubin...the 'great' producer...I think its time Metallica realised that they have become a legacy act ( a band that writes new albums purely for the sake of touring ie: AC/DC)
I'll have to go with Dream Theater's Greatest Hit ...and 21 Other Pretty Cool Songs. The compression on this compilation is just unacceptable...
At time of writing:
Metallica - Death magnetic
This Metallica album is really bad, quality wise.
(I like the songs much better than St. Anger, though)
This album is as bad as their first single from this album mentioned above.
The single was actually so bad-sounding that iTunes refused to sell it.
And I agree, nobody should have to pay for this crap, mostly clippingnoise.
It's a disgrase to any digital format.
Heavily over-clippressed, which gives wall of noise, and absolutely no dynamics.
Album RG value -13.44dB
Some years ago I thought the LOUDNESS war/race couldn't get any worse...I was wrong.
At time of writing:
Metallica - Death magnetic
This Metallica album is really bad, quality wise.
(I like the songs much better than St. Anger, though)
This album is as bad as their first single from this album mentioned above.
The single was actually so bad-sounding that iTunes refused to sell it.
And I agree, nobody should have to pay for this crap, mostly clippingnoise.
It's a disgrase to any digital format.
Heavily over-clippressed, which gives wall of noise, and absolutely no dynamics.
Album RG value -13.44dB
Some years ago I thought the LOUDNESS war/race couldn't get any worse...I was wrong.
Several days ago, I looked on iTunes and the single was available for sale. What is your source that iTunes initially refused to sell it? (presumably you're referring to TDTNC).
This article:
http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermo...wsitemID=103625 (http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=103625)
I guess they've replaced the old file with a "better" sounding one.
This Metallica album is really bad, quality wise.
I couldn't agree more. The compression is unbearable. Especially TDTNC is catastrophic because you can easily hear the distortion caused by it. I really hope the Japanese SHM-CD release, that I have ordered, will be mastered differently, but I rather doubt it. A last resort would be to buy the vinyl version, just to digitize it. This is really making me mad.
I analysed the two tracks that Metallica released as singles from their upcoming new album and I must say that I'm really really disappointed. Mastering-wise they have learned nothing at all since "St. Anger". The RG value of "The Day That Never Comes" is -13.7 dB and "My Apocalypse" doesn't fare much better with -11.3 dB. After TDTNC's introductory phase the peakmeter in foobar2000 moves in a range of about three pixels (refresh rate of 5 ms with zero hold time!). That's far less than 1 dB. Even Hypocrisy's Scrutinized (RG: -15 dB) doesn't behave in such an extreme way.
Edit: Here's a picture of the waveform (http://www.devir.de/temp/metallica-tdtnc.png).
I heard The Day That Never Comes, which the track gain was over -13db and the mastering is terrible, and I recken the final album will be just as bad. Its a shame since that track itself is a HUGE improvement over Shite Anger and their post Black Album work.
And this yet another example of Rick Rubin going to far in the loudness war. I wish that f****r would stop it, most of the badly mastered CDs I own are produced by him.
At time of writing:
Metallica - Death magnetic
This Metallica album is really bad, quality wise.
(I like the songs much better than St. Anger, though)
This album is as bad as their first single from this album mentioned above.
The single was actually so bad-sounding that iTunes refused to sell it.
And I agree, nobody should have to pay for this crap, mostly clippingnoise.
It's a disgrase to any digital format.
Heavily over-clippressed, which gives wall of noise, and absolutely no dynamics.
Album RG value -13.44dB
Some years ago I thought the LOUDNESS war/race couldn't get any worse...I was wrong.
Dam you Rick Rubin.
Fear Factory - Transgression (Alot of clicks and the bonus live tracks were from a lossy audio codec source like mp3 @ 32 kbps)
I noticed that too. Previous albums like Archetype, Digimortal, Obsolete and Demanufacture are well done.
Their debut album Soul Of A New Machine (orginal release) is a nicely mastered for a Death / Industrial Metal album.
But am not sure about Archetype though and there is plenty of bricked tracks on it such as "Cyberwaste", but it does sound better then Transmission though.
At time of writing:
Metallica - Death magnetic
This Metallica album is really bad, quality wise.
(I like the songs much better than St. Anger, though)
This album is as bad as their first single from this album mentioned above.
The single was actually so bad-sounding that iTunes refused to sell it.
And I agree, nobody should have to pay for this crap, mostly clippingnoise.
It's a disgrase to any digital format.
Heavily over-clippressed, which gives wall of noise, and absolutely no dynamics.
Album RG value -13.44dB
Some years ago I thought the LOUDNESS war/race couldn't get any worse...I was wrong.
It seems that the cd will sound better (clipping-wise) , the RG level should be of about -11 dB vs -13 dB of the previously released singles like TDTNC (that probably comes from a pre-master track).
-11 dB is very loud but much better than -13 dB
It seems that the cd will sound better (clipping-wise) , the RG level should be of about -11 dB vs -13 dB of the previously released singles like TDTNC (that probably comes from a pre-master track).
Sadly not. There is a leaked version of the whole album that in all likelihood has been accidentally sold in France (http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=103902). It has an album gain worse than -13 dB.
It seems that the cd will sound better (clipping-wise) , the RG level should be of about -11 dB vs -13 dB of the previously released singles like TDTNC (that probably comes from a pre-master track).
Sadly not. There is a leaked version of the whole album that in all likelihood has been accidentally sold in France (http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=103902). It has an album gain worse than -13 dB.
I know but fortunately it has been proved that the leaked version doesn't come from the cd...
So, there's still hope then? Well, I wouldn't expect too much. The latest Slayer album, also produced by Rick Rubin, has an album gain of about -12.3 dB.
So, there's still hope then? Well, I wouldn't expect too much. The latest Slayer album, also produced by Rick Rubin, has an album gain of about -12.3 dB.
Yes... Read here, I wrote a topic about it http://www.metallicabb.com/index.php?showt...=83111&st=0 (http://www.metallicabb.com/index.php?showtopic=83111&st=0) I also don't expect too much but a little less clipping diefinetly yes
well Californication was one of the first one's to really grab my head and pound it into a brickwall. the Sunn O))) albums are completely unlistenable. it's just speaker buzz from go to woah.
nevermind
There is a new release of the album circulating. This time it really seems to be a rip of the final CD. They posted a picture of the CD and packaging, which seems genuine. The frequency spectrum also reveals that it has all the frequencies that the encoder (LAME 3.97 V2) preserves. But sadly, the mastering isn't any better in this release at all. Album gain is -13.38 dB and it stills sounds extremely distorted. I'm 99.9% sure that the official release will not differ in any way from this release. If the SHM-CD version is mastered the same (which is highly probable) I will buy the vinyl pressing as a last resort. The CD version is simply unlistenable, unless you like heavy distortion.
Just another bad quality CD from Metallica
(http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/1531/76814981fg4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/1531/76814981fg4.7087c82bae.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=160&i=76814981fg4.jpg)
Metallica - Death Magnetic. By a mile.
This Metallica album is really bad, quality wise.
I couldn't agree more. The compression is unbearable. Especially TDTNC is catastrophic because you can easily hear the distortion caused by it. I really hope the Japanese SHM-CD release, that I have ordered, will be mastered differently, but I rather doubt it. A last resort would be to buy the vinyl version, just to digitize it. This is really making me mad.
Don't get your hopes up, the SHMCD for the last Mars Volta matched the normal release byte to byte as far as music goes (compared EAC logs of the two - same crc on all tracks).
There is a new release of the album circulating. This time it really seems to be a rip of the final CD. They posted a picture of the CD and packaging, which seems genuine. The frequency spectrum also reveals that it has all the frequencies that the encoder (LAME 3.97 V2) preserves. But sadly, the mastering isn't any better in this release at all. Album gain is -13.38 dB and it stills sounds extremely distorted. I'm 99.9% sure that the official release will not differ in any way from this release. If the SHM-CD version is mastered the same (which is highly probable) I will buy the vinyl pressing as a last resort. The CD version is simply unlistenable, unless you like heavy distortion.
Mmh, It seems strange, a lot of version I've found in internet seems to be transcoded from the original wma leaked (that sounds like s...). If you download 6 songs from the original metallica site (using a media catcher) you can see these versions are not so loud (album gain from 6 tracks about -11.8 dB).
Also, try to divide your tracks length by 588 and see if the result is an integer (this means the source is cd)
Mmh, It seems strange, a lot of version I've found in internet seems to be transcoded from the original wma leaked (that sounds like s...). If you download 6 songs from the original metallica site (using a media catcher) you can see these versions are not so loud (album gain from 6 tracks about -11.8 dB).
Also, try to divide your tracks length by 588 and see if the result is an integer (this means the source is cd)
Result is an integer. Mastering is pure crap.
I divided the length in samples of all tracks by 588. All results were whole numbers.
By the way, I just cancelled the order and ordered the vinyl version instead.
I divided the length in samples of all tracks by 588. All results were whole numbers.
By the way, I just cancelled the order and ordered the vinyl version instead.
Tell me it's not true... I cannot stand this f...in' loudness war
I doubt the vinyl is better. I wouldn't be surprised if it is mastered from the CD.
I divided the length in samples of all tracks by 588. All results were whole numbers.
By the way, I just cancelled the order and ordered the vinyl version instead.
Hypothetically, what does this point to?
I'm assuming the worst case is that it was a transcode from a lossy format, but that's not the only reason this would occur, correct?
-brendan
I've been thinking recently that perhaps the best way to stop the loudness war is for CDs to continue to get more and more clipressed until the distortion is so bad that everyone notices it. So when Metallica releases an album which is virtually unlistenable to, they are raising the profile of the problem of poor mastering.
Just a more positive way of looking things!
I doubt the vinyl is better. I wouldn't be surprised if it is mastered from the CD.
Vinyl cannot be mastered as hot as CDs. Even -9 dB is nigh impossible. The latest Slayer album has an album gain of about -7 dB. The CD has -12.5 dB. So at least there will be better preserved transients and less distortion compared to the CD.
Hypothetically, what does this point to?
I'm assuming the worst case is that it was a transcode from a lossy format, but that's not the only reason this would occur, correct?
It simply means that it is highly probable that the initial source is a CD. Apart from that there is no reason to believe that the source for the MP3 encoder is not a CD because the frequency spectrum is not crippled in any way. All frequencies that LAME preserves at the V2 quality preset are there.
I've been thinking recently that perhaps the best way to stop the loudness war is for CDs to continue to get more and more clipressed until the distortion is so bad that everyone notices it. So when Metallica releases an album which is virtually unlistenable to, they are raising the profile of the problem of poor mastering.
Just a more positive way of looking things!
nice ideal but i doubt it. clipression is the norm. the average joe is used to it and even expects it.
I doubt the vinyl is better. I wouldn't be surprised if it is mastered from the CD.
Vinyl cannot be mastered as hot as CDs. Even -9 dB is nigh impossible. The latest Slayer album has an album gain of about -7 dB. The CD has -12.5 dB. So at least there will be better preserved transients and less distortion compared to the CD.
Wrong. There are diverse examples of CD masters being cut to LP. It may require some waveform tweaking or a lowering of levels, but it is quite straightforward from what I understand. (Also, dB means something completely different on LP; +6db is quite possible.)
Note that because of distortion effects and perhaps the occasional pop/tick, the dynamic range may
appear superior on a waveform plot, but a quasi-peak-to-average measurement (or pfpf) can tease out if the overall loudness range is the same or if it is greater.
IMHO, you can thank all the subjectivist audiophiles (JA and Mikey particularly) for promulgating the myth that vinyl as a format is superior to CD, thus giving producers the justified false belief that putting a CD cut on vinyl automatically makes it sound better.
LP's can be cut from CD masters, but isn't there a physical limitation (in terms of the depth of the groove of the record) as to how loud an LP can be?
If there is, as you say there may be, a lowering of the levels in order to put out a recording on LP, doesn't that validate part of what was proposed in the initial post, e.g. that the LP will not sound as distorted/clipped as the CD? Not that the said LP will have a more elastic dynamic range, but that clipping and distortion will be reduced or non-existent?
Words like "superior" carry loaded meanings. LP's were (are) superior to CD's, for example, when it comes to cover art! Otherwise, I think that is too subjective of a term to use in such a discussion.
LP's can be cut from CD masters, but isn't there a physical limitation (in terms of the depth of the groove of the record) as to how loud an LP can be?
If there is, as you say there may be, a lowering of the levels in order to put out a recording on LP, doesn't that validate part of what was proposed in the initial post, e.g. that the LP will not sound as distorted/clipped as the CD? Not that the said LP will have a more elastic dynamic range, but that clipping and distortion will be reduced or non-existent?
No. All that means is that you have quiet music that's clipping instead of loud music that's clipping.
So you're stating that such a CD master is clipped. Wouldn't one make a separate LP master most of the time? Or are you saying that companies do not do that?
So you're stating that such a CD master is clipped. Wouldn't one make a separate LP master most of the time? Or are you saying that companies do not do that?
That's exactly what I'm saying. A vinyl remaster is an added expense that, let's face it, hardly anybody is going to care about anyway. If most people can't identify hypercompression on a CD, the vinyl buyers sure as hell aren't going to spot it on their vinyl. Correctly identifying a hypercompressed vinyl master is dreadfully complicated business - you can't just throw it up on Audacity; you get a lot of false negatives that way.
When the label pays the extra money for a vinyl master, like with
Icky Thump, you can bet your ass that they are going to let you know about it. If they don't, they clearly don't think highly enough of the vinyl mastering to promote it to audiophiles.
All of the recent new vinyl I've bought has, to my ears & my analyses, the same master as exists on CD.
I've prepared a comparison image (http://www.devir.de/temp/slayer-ci-vinyl_vs_cd.png) between the CD and vinyl version of Slayer's Christ Illusion (using the last track "Supremist"). Both files have been normalized to the same volume using ReplayGain. You can see several things:
- Quiet parts don't differ (much), which shows that it's not the turntable that "magically" adds non-existent peaks.
- Loud parts are obviously extremely peak-limited in the CD version while the vinyl version looks quite okay (considering the style of music).
- Whereas the CD version's waveform doesn't indicate a fade-out before 03:25, the vinyl version shows a fade-out about 10 seconds earlier, which also indicates that the peaks aren't added by the turntable.
If Death Magnetic is mastered similarly on vinyl, then it should be quite an improvement over the CD version. The most annoying effect, the heavy distortion, should not exist because the peaks aren't limited to such an extreme extent. Christ Illusion is by the way also produced by Rick Rubin.
What does the track look like when it's zoomed in around a clipped waveform?
Excellent image though. I do wonder if the fades contain any loud percussion like the body of the song does - I would believe that if vinyl distortion does artificially raise the peaks, it would do so for high-acceleration parts (ie loud high frequency stuff like transients).
I'll probably need to prep a few images myself to illustrate what I think are the same masters.
Hancoque, maybe we should split this topic off into a separate discussion of identifying CD/vinyl masters?
Speaking of Metal albums, I have a album called Total Brutal by Austrian Death Machine. So far the mastering on it seems very questionable. Since there's alot of hi-hat and audio clips that sounds like its come from a lossy source. Also looking at the spectrum gram on foobar2000 makes it look it was mastered from a lossy source. Since it looks it has a been through a lowpass filter.
Here is a shoot of a freq analysis on a track from my flac rip, I did with Audacity.
(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/6865/gettothechoppafreqplotkv4.th.png) (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gettothechoppafreqplotkv4.png)
I have uploaded a couple of sample tracks (http://www.sendspace.com/file/nxz13j) from the album.
Some of the tracks seem to be very easy to ABX at V2 on LAME like if it was a transcode and also easy to ABX at q 55 on Nero AAC.
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.5.5
2008/09/08 21:31:03
File A: C:\Music\Albums\Austrian Death Machine\Total Brutal\06. Come With Me If You Want To Live.mp3
File B: C:\Rips\Austrian Death Machine - Total Brutal\06. Come With Me If You Want To Live.flac
21:31:03 : Test started.
21:31:43 : 01/01 50.0%
21:31:47 : 02/02 25.0%
21:32:00 : 03/03 12.5%
21:32:04 : 04/04 6.3%
21:32:10 : 05/05 3.1%
21:32:17 : 06/06 1.6%
21:32:30 : 07/07 0.8%
21:32:42 : 08/08 0.4%
21:32:52 : 09/09 0.2%
21:33:01 : 10/10 0.1%
21:33:06 : 11/11 0.0%
21:33:21 : 12/12 0.0%
21:33:24 : Test finished.
----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)
A popping noise, just over on 0:13. The artifact is also present on Nero AAC at q 55.
Hancoque, maybe we should split this topic off into a separate discussion of identifying CD/vinyl masters?
Yes, this is getting kinda off-topic here. Can you start a new thread?
I've prepared a comparison image (http://www.devir.de/temp/slayer-ci-vinyl_vs_cd.png) between the CD and vinyl version of Slayer's Christ Illusion (using the last track "Supremist")
Those comparison images alone (with no close ups) don't prove much.
example:
(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/7158/50725714cc1.th.png) (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=50725714cc1.png)
to
(http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4595/83453590bd3.th.png) (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=83453590bd3.png)
...with a filter in Audition which shifts the wave form around but causes no audible difference. Here is a close up (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=67366608kg5.png) from the second wave form. You still see the clipping.
Worst mastered album I listened to so far has to be the new Dragonforce album.
The peakmeter almost never moved in it, Replaygain was something like -13db. They really did sound like something like an old Nintendo.
I'll throw in a +1 on Metallica's Death Magnetic album.
After a while, it becomes immensely tiring to listen to. Its ear torture to try to listen to the album more than once in a row, even at moderate volume levels.
A sad way to showcase some of the best material Metallica have written in the last 20 years.
I have the Death Magnetic CD in APE+CUE, RG scan below.
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/f90e7cdb9681c94c23c469c07a42e3de.jpg)
I have the Death Magnetic CD in APE+CUE, RG scan below.
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/f90e7cdb9681c94c23c469c07a42e3de.jpg)
So you own the actual CD? The leak has an album-gain of -13.50db.
Each track on your version seems to be around 2db "cooler" than the leak. Hopefully it's not as fatiguing.
LP's can be cut from CD masters, but isn't there a physical limitation (in terms of the depth of the groove of the record) as to how loud an LP can be?
If there is, as you say there may be, a lowering of the levels in order to put out a recording on LP, doesn't that validate part of what was proposed in the initial post, e.g. that the LP will not sound as distorted/clipped as the CD? Not that the said LP will have a more elastic dynamic range, but that clipping and distortion will be reduced or non-existent?
No. All that means is that you have quiet music that's clipping instead of loud music that's clipping.
IIRC, one physical limitation was in the ability of TTs to track very loud parts of LPs (e.g., the infamous cannon shots of the "1812 Overture"). I presume this is less of an issue with today's TT/cart combos, but couldn't say definitively, as I rarely use that technology these days.
I have the Death Magnetic CD in APE+CUE, RG scan below.
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/f90e7cdb9681c94c23c469c07a42e3de.jpg)
So you own the actual CD? The leak has an album-gain of -13.50db.
Each track on your version seems to be around 2db "cooler" than the leak. Hopefully it's not as fatiguing.
I've just analyzed the same version... and same results
Even if TDTNC still sounds distorted at the end, is better than preovious leaked version
I doubt the vinyl is better. I wouldn't be surprised if it is mastered from the CD.
Vinyl cannot be mastered as hot as CDs. Even -9 dB is nigh impossible. The latest Slayer album has an album gain of about -7 dB. The CD has -12.5 dB. So at least there will be better preserved transients and less distortion compared to the CD.
Wrong. There are diverse examples of CD masters being cut to LP. It may require some waveform tweaking or a lowering of levels, but it is quite straightforward from what I understand. (Also, dB means something completely different on LP; +6db is quite possible.)
Well, then, that means, as Hancoque said, that vinyl cannot be mastered as hot as CDs -- i.e., the hottest CDs will be hotter than any LP can handle, unless the waveforms are tweaked or level is lowered...in which case the LP is still not as 'hot' as the CD!
I don't think he meant 'you can never master an LP at the level of a CD'. As long as the CD is mastered within the level range that LP can do, you can do a 'straightforward' transfer.
i just put on death magnetic in lossless. it's horrible.
IIRC, one physical limitation was in the ability of TTs to track very loud parts of LPs (e.g., the infamous cannon shots of the "1812 Overture"). I presume this is less of an issue with today's TT/cart combos, but couldn't say definitively, as I rarely use that technology these days.
It's still an issue for a lot of carts, but it was more or less alleviated by never hitting that level again
Well, then, that means, as Hancoque said, that vinyl cannot be mastered as hot as CDs -- i.e., the hottest CDs will be hotter than any LP can handle, unless the waveforms are tweaked or level is lowered...in which case the LP is still not as 'hot' as the CD! I don't think he meant 'you can never master an LP at the level of a CD'. As long as the CD is mastered within the level range that LP can do, you can do a 'straightforward' transfer.
Well, yeah, but more fundamentally, "level" means something completely different here. Apples and oranges. CD "heat" means how close the signal gets to 0dbFS, and almost always is modulated through compression and limiting; vinyl "heat" means how high the modulation peaks are relative to NAB 0db (5cm/s?), and is almost always modulated through straight up gain.
As a matter of comparison, though, saying that a CD is "hotter" than the vinyl implicitly means that compression/limiting is being compared here, and not gain. The differences in gain between all the different components of the vinyl system are such that saying that the vinyl sounds louder/softer than the CD is sort of meaningless.
I have the Death Magnetic CD in APE+CUE, RG scan below.
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/f90e7cdb9681c94c23c469c07a42e3de.jpg)
So you own the actual CD? The leak has an album-gain of -13.50db.
Each track on your version seems to be around 2db "cooler" than the leak. Hopefully it's not as fatiguing.
I've just analyzed the same version... and same results
Even if TDTNC still sounds distorted at the end, is better than preovious leaked version
I listen to it more carefully... It sounds like pure s..t hopefully is a promo cd
To sum it up: There are now three versions of Death Magnetic that don't seem to be a transcode:
- LAME 3.97 V2, album gain -13.38 dB
- LAME 3.97 CBR 320 kbps, album gain -12.49 dB
- APE/CUE, album gain -11.16 dB
I have compared them via ABX and could differentiate between them (ReplayGain enabled). The first version has the most distortion and it's very annoying. The second version sounds much better in this regard. The third version is a slight improvement over the second version. The production itself seems to be the same on all three versions, only the amount of compression/limiting varies. Even the third version has audible distortion, but it's much less annoying than the first version, but still too much in my opinion.
Well, then, that means, as Hancoque said, that vinyl cannot be mastered as hot as CDs -- i.e., the hottest CDs will be hotter than any LP can handle, unless the waveforms are tweaked or level is lowered...in which case the LP is still not as 'hot' as the CD! I don't think he meant 'you can never master an LP at the level of a CD'. As long as the CD is mastered within the level range that LP can do, you can do a 'straightforward' transfer.
Well, yeah, but more fundamentally, "level" means something completely different here. Apples and oranges. CD "heat" means how close the signal gets to 0dbFS, and almost always is modulated through compression and limiting; vinyl "heat" means how high the modulation peaks are relative to NAB 0db (5cm/s?), and is almost always modulated through straight up gain.
Granted, but digital 'heat' is not just whether 0dB is reached, but how
often peaks are at or near 0dB. You know, like Iggy Pop remastering his CD to be always 'in the red'
This is certainly going to impact how easily a digital master can be transferred to LP, with playability intact.
I have compared them via ABX and could differentiate between them (ReplayGain enabled). The first version has the most distortion and it's very annoying. The second version sounds much better in this regard. The third version is a slight improvement over the second version. The production itself seems to be the same on all three versions, only the amount of compression/limiting varies. Even the third version has audible distortion, but it's much less annoying than the first version, but still too much in my opinion.
Lars has got to be f*cking with us. He's punishing file sharers for their transgressions. I'm sure of it.
Granted, but digital 'heat' is not just whether 0dB is reached, but how often peaks are at or near 0dB. You know, like Iggy Pop remastering his CD to be always 'in the red' ohmy.gif This is certainly going to impact how easily a digital master can be transferred to LP, with playability intact
Nope! That's what I'm saying in my vinyl mastering thread. It very well may not.
Lars has got to be f*cking with us. He's punishing file sharers for their transgressions. I'm sure of it.
That came to my mind as well, but I don't see how this would benefit the band or label. If people complain about the bad mastering before release and tell others to not buy the album because it sucks quality-wise it would mean less sales.
Unless people keep dissing LAME's sound quality at high bitrates, which is done astonishingly often, especially with this album.
Christ, I just heard a lossless copy of The Day That Never Comes, its still painfully awfull to hear. The track gain was -13.84. Jesus t***y f***ing christ, thats just plain bad and unprofessional mastering, if it was the offical release. And this Ted Jensen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Jensen), won a grammy award for mastering ..................why?.
Anyway the offical music video of the song is on youtube, along with bad acting to go with the piss poor sound. Am shocked that alot of youtubers have bitched about the sound quality, instead of having a flame war with Megadeth fans .
I've been thinking recently that perhaps the best way to stop the loudness war is for CDs to continue to get more and more clipressed until the distortion is so bad that everyone notices it. So when Metallica releases an album which is virtually unlistenable to, they are raising the profile of the problem of poor mastering.
Just a more positive way of looking things!
Well, at least your glass is half full, and I give you props for that. But you're wrong. I've read some things here and there on the internet, and I see a lot of Metallica fans mocking "audiophiles" and telling them to, essentially, 'shut up and listen' to the album and forget about the sound quality (which, incidentally, they think is pretty good). And I've read some favorable reviews by large publications (e.g. Rolling Stone) gushing with praise over the music, with absolutely zero mention of sound quality.
I do my computer listening with Logitech Z-2300's which tend to sweeten the sound of very compressed music for some reason (compared to my "real" amp + speaker setups), and even then, I found Death Magnetic to be completely unlistenable. Shrill, no dynamics, and just like every other Metallica album, you still wouldn't know there's a bassist by listening to the songs.
The only good news that I can see is that we can put this album right up there next to Californication under "famous Rick Rubin produced albums with ear destroying mastering." Ted Jensen, YOU SUCK and you deserve to lose your job and have your Grammy rescinded. My dog is deaf and retarded and she could master Metallica better than you.
Granted, but digital 'heat' is not just whether 0dB is reached, but how often peaks are at or near 0dB. You know, like Iggy Pop remastering his CD to be always 'in the red' ohmy.gif This is certainly going to impact how easily a digital master can be transferred to LP, with playability intact
Nope! That's what I'm saying in my vinyl mastering thread. It very well may not.
As you yourself have said, it will require changing level, or 'tweaking' EQ. I call that an 'impact on how easily a digital master can be transferred".
Anyway the offical music video of the song is on youtube, along with bad acting to go with the piss poor sound.
(http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10220000/10220517.jpg)
"Shoot 'em! Shoot 'em!" (edit: Metallica, of course. I should have watched the whole video before posting. Makes note to self: "Never watch Metallica videos in the first place.")
The new Metallica album's mastering pisses me off to no end. They finally had a shot of doing an album right, and they failed, again.
Anyway the offical music video of the song is on youtube, along with bad acting to go with the piss poor sound.
(http://images.art.com/images/products/large/10220000/10220517.jpg)
"Shoot 'em! Shoot 'em!" (edit: Metallica, of course. I should have watched the whole video before posting. Makes note to self: "Never watch Metallica videos in the first place.")
LOL
Oh god, i miss Beavis and Butthead. Seeing them watching and making fun of music videos was just funny. Espesaly when they were watching Soundgarden's Black Hole Sun music video and Pantera's This Love music video.
It would kinda funny if Beavis and Butthead was still running, and they could re-use the that joke when Beavis (Metallica fan) did not know that it was Metallica on the One music video. And use it on any mordern Metallica video music video.
And -13.38 dB it is. So, the retail release is actually the worst sounding of the three versions that leaked during the last days.
P.S.: And don't be fooled by the ReplayGain values of the MP3 release. The tracks have just been attenuated by 2 dB.
I just easily ABXed the Promo version from the retail version and my ears are far from golden. I'm not sure whether these differences are caused by dynamic compression only.
I just easily ABXed the Promo version from the retail version
Ditto. The differences I found are that the promo version has more treble and less distortion. Overall I found no weaknesses in the promo version compared to the retail version.
I just easily ABXed the Promo version from the retail version
Ditto. The differences I found are that the promo version has more treble and less distortion. Overall I found no weaknesses in the promo version compared to the retail version.
That's unbelievably stupid. As if someone had requested it on the last minute: "Man, the promo wasn't loud enough."
Its a offical, Death Magnetic is the worst mastered CD i have ever own. I just brought the offical retail CD and the album gain is -13.38. It makes Hypotize's mastering on pair with RATM's debut album.
[a href="http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deathmagneticreplaygainay5.png" target="_blank"]. The music on the album is or would be awesome and alot better then some of their modern stuff, but the sound on it is just piss poor.
Yeah shame. Bad for the band, bad for everybody else now there is a new 'standard' (read: low) in loudness to live up to. Its all because of you industry people. Your lack of standards and bad tastes. When I got into audio coding in 2003 there first challenge was normalising audio - not to bully the softer tracks ! . Replaygain was quick and easy. Industry people : What have you done ? Its all your fault at the end of the day blame mp3, this and that .. Its all your fault. To those in other forums still denying this problem and like 'artistic' freedom of volume - you are just as guilty.
I heard a rumor about the digital download version from missionmetallica having a slightly better RG value than the CD. Anyone here bought it?
P.S.: And don't be fooled by the ReplayGain values of the MP3 release. The tracks have just been attenuated by 2 dB.
There are definitely two different masterings around.
This is from the first two minutes of Cyanide.
http://i37.tinypic.com/2vuwwtu.jpg (http://i37.tinypic.com/2vuwwtu.jpg)
From what I understand, the bottom one is from the European promo CD. The top is the retail U.S. Both are from lossless sources.
Death Magnetic mastering engineer passes the buck!
http://www.metallicabb.com/index.php?showtopic=85317 (http://www.metallicabb.com/index.php?showtopic=85317)
I’m certainly sympathetic to your reaction, I get to slam my head against that brick wall every day. In this case the mixes were already brick walled before they arrived at my place. Suffice it to say I would never be pushed to overdrive things as far as they are here. Believe me I’m not proud to be associated with this one, and we can only hope that some good will come from this in some form of backlash against volume above all else.
Probably means the vinyl is hosed too.
Yes, the promo version is definitely the better one. But the download version does not equal the promo version, not that somebody thinks that because of the "better" ReplayGain values.
Death Magnetic mastering engineer passes the buck!
[...]
Probably means the vinyl is hosed too.
Oh jeez, if I'm paying 70 € for nothing, I'm really pissed off! But at least Ted Jensen is admitting the problem. That is *the* argument against all those people who say "we audiophiles" are only imagining things. I really hope that the resistance against the album will be high enough to convince someone to issue a re-release or even a release targeted at audiophiles like a DVD-A release.
Edit: There's a petition for a re-mix or remaster (http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petitions/re-mix-or-remaster-death-magnetic.html).
Ladies and gentlemen, we have vinyl clipping on Death Magnetic.
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost...p;postcount=531 (http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=3785092&postcount=531)
Just chiming in my experience with Metallica's "Death Magnetic" CD.
I actually purchased it for $9.88 earlier today at Circuit City.
Upon ripping with EAC Secure Mode and encoding with LAME 3.98 -V0 here are what I got for the MP3s' RG values using Foobar2000 :
Album Gain value of -13.38 dB
Album Peak value of 1.246632
UPDATE:
Upon listening to the MP3s, I've noticed distortion and possible clipping on track 4, "The Day That Never Comes". I verified that it's also on the audio CD, so it's not a rip-n-encode issue.
UPDATE:
Upon listening to the MP3s, I've noticed distortion and possible clipping on track 4, "The Day That Never Comes". I verified that it's also on the audio CD, so it's not a rip-n-encode issue.
Dude... it's all over the place. But yeah, that track is particularly atrocious.
Just chiming in my experience with Metallica's "Death Magnetic" CD.
I actually purchased it for $9.88 earlier today at Circuit City.
Upon ripping with EAC Secure Mode and encoding with LAME 3.98 -V0 here are what I got for the MP3s' RG values using Foobar2000 :
Album Gain value of -13.38 dB
Album Peak value of 1.246632
UPDATE:
Upon listening to the MP3s, I've noticed distortion and possible clipping on track 4, "The Day That Never Comes". I verified that it's also on the audio CD, so it's not a rip-n-encode issue.
It's not a ripping issue, the whole album is just a very POORLY mastered album produced by Rick Rubin, yet again. Which sounds like it was a mixing issue aswell. I got the same problem with my FLAC rip and LAME V2 (dam i really hate sfb21 boating) transcode.
But am glad that some mainstream listeners are quickly starting to take notice of this awfull mastering trend.
Audacity's graph of Death Magnetic's track #4, "The Day That Never Comes"
[a href="http://www.imagehosting.com/" target="_blank"]
I listened to the GH 3 version of TDTNC and it sounds much better... nearly not distortion at all, listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMbNhV-Tx4o&fmt=18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMbNhV-Tx4o&fmt=18)
I'm still waiting for the album I ordered and I hope to get the good sounding one... let's see...
Audacity's graph of Death Magnetic's track #4, "The Day That Never Comes"
(http://www.imagehosting.com/)
It's so painfull to look at.
And I thought Cyberwaste by Fear Factory was bad.
[a href="http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cyberwastefreqgs7.png" target="_blank"](http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/2826/cyberwastefreqgs7.th.png)[/url]
I listened to the GH 3 version of TDTNC and it sounds much better... nearly not distortion at all, listen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMbNhV-Tx4o&fmt=18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMbNhV-Tx4o&fmt=18)
I'm still waiting for the album I ordered and I hope to get the good sounding one... let's see...
Wow it sounds ALOT more better then the album version, and the track itself looks hard to do later on GH3. Is there really a good sounding retail version, I thought it was only the promo version that sounded better?
I recorded the GH3 track from Youtube in Audition, normalized it, hard-limited it a bit to prevent ReplayGain from producing too relaxed results. The result is a ReplayGain value of about -6 dB. The waveform also looks quite good in comparison to the retail release. Both in the overview and detail view. Where the retail version heavily clips, the promo version also shows distortion (but not CD clipping), but the GH3 version shows absolutely no sign of clipping or heavy limiting at all!
I prepared this animated comparison image (http://www.devir.de/temp/tdtnc-comparison.gif).
I recorded the GH3 track from Youtube in Audition, normalized it, hard-limited it a bit to prevent ReplayGain from producing too relaxed results. The result is a ReplayGain value of about -6 dB. The waveform also looks quite good in comparison to the retail release. Both in the overview and detail view. Where the retail version heavily clips, the promo version also shows distortion (but not CD clipping), but the GH3 version shows absolutely no sign of clipping or heavy limiting at all!
I prepared this animated comparison image (http://www.devir.de/temp/tdtnc-comparison.gif).
It does sound nice.
However, is it the actual song, or have they "digitized" it into a non Redbook audio type form for GH3?
What I mean is are just the notes stored, and then it plays back high quality samples corresponding to the notes and octaves? Something like the old school MOD trackers (i.e. MOD, S3M, XM)?
Just an assumption: They have the different instruments as separate tracks (the download is said to be compatible with the upcoming Guitar Hero World Tour which features additional instruments). If the guitar is played wrong it is either changed to a wrong pitch (long chords) or silenced for a short duration (short notes). I think all that can be done with a simple PCM version of the guitar track. The separation is only there to leave the other instruments intact when one is played wrong. But it might be more complex, though it is not really necessary in my opinion.
Just an assumption: They have the different instruments as separate tracks (the download is said to be compatible with the upcoming Guitar Hero World Tour which features additional instruments). If the guitar is played wrong it is either changed to a wrong pitch (long chords) or silenced for a short duration (short notes). I think all that can be done with a simple PCM version of the guitar track. The separation is only there to leave the other instruments intact when one is played wrong. But it might be more complex, though it is not really necessary in my opinion.
I think that GH3 stuff used multiple tracks metallica gave them before mixing (and they did a wonderful job) ...It seems the most logical explanation
EDIT: for complete information about the GH mix etc... take a look here:
http://damn-games.blogspot.com/2008/09/dea...r-hero-mix.html (http://damn-games.blogspot.com/2008/09/death-magnetic-guitar-hero-mix.html)
Hi,
I've been lurking for a while but thought I'd come out of the woodwork so please bare with me if I I sound a little ignorant at times. I bought Death Magnetic on CD and for the first time on an album I've really noticed the clipping and although I love the album my ears are waving white glags by the end of it. Does anyone have the vinyl version and does it sound better?
Simon
The vinyl version is not better. It shows the same distortion as the CD version (image (http://www.devir.de/temp/tdtnc-vinyl_vs_cd.png)). But the ultimate mix has been finally found. See the post above yours.
I just compared the GH3 Version of Metallicas TDTNC. The differences are enormous. More dynamic, no over-compression, no distortion (except where they belong). With ABX compare and good headphones you switch between two worlds. Especially at the end. Here the Audacity screenshots
CD:
(http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3668/tdtndcdkm4.th.jpg) (http://img357.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdtndcdkm4.jpg)
GH3:
(http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/8591/tdtndgh3au3.th.jpg) (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tdtndgh3au3.jpg)
I'm listening to a "GH3 release" of the album I got through torrent. Immensely better than the absurdly clipped, unlistenable original CD.
Unbelievable
I'm listening to the "Guitar Hero" version right now: UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE.
ReplayGain is - 4,64 dB.
Gentlemen, start your BitTorrent engines.
This shows the sad truth about how much great music we have lost during the last decades. This mastering of the album is an absolute joy to listen to - the new dynamics and (nearly) clipping free sound makes it a completely different and great album.
A lot of people around on the internet has complained about this particular album, so we could hope that this album will be a turning point for the madness.. (especially now that they can listen to how it could sound).
Article about the Guitar Hero version:
"Analysis: Metallica's Death Magnetic Sounds Better in Guitar Hero" (http://blog.wired.com/music/2008/09/does-metallicas.html)Interesting quote:
Sheperd spotted a comment by oneway23 on a Metallica forum that appears to contain a note from head engineer Ted Jensen of Sterling Sound, the company that mastered the album.
"I'm certainly sympathetic to your reaction," read the note, "I get to slam my head against that brick wall every day. In this case, the mixes were already brick-walled before they arrived at my place. Suffice to say I would never be pushed to overdrive things as far as they are here.
"Believe me I'm not proud to be associated with this one, and we can only hope that some good will come from this in some form of backlash against volume above all else."
Since I own the Death Magnetic CD, I don't think there will be too much of stink raised if I get the GH3 version of the album off BitTorrent, since all I'm getting is a better quality version of what should have been the CD in the first place.
This shows the sad truth about how much great music we have lost during the last decades. This mastering of the album is an absolute joy to listen to - the new dynamics and (nearly) clipping free sound makes it a completely different and great album.
A lot of people around on the internet has complained about this particular album, so we could hope that this album will be a turning point for the madness.. (especially now that they can listen to how it could sound).
This is exactly what i have been thinking... We are just too optimistic..
Another article (http://www.tomsguide.com/us/guitar-hero-metallica-death-magnetic,news-2611.html) about the Death Magnetic fiasco on… erm… Tom's Guide.
just listening to the GH3 version.....
a new world for this cd.
I'm listening to the "Guitar Hero" version right now: UN-FUCKING-BELIEVABLE.
ReplayGain is - 4,64 dB.
Gentlemen, start your BitTorrent engines.
Which GH3 version did you DL?
The GH3 version I got was a collection of FLAC recordings totalling about 540 MB because it has two versions of "Suicide and Redemption". One version of S&R is labelled K.H. and the other is labelled J.H.
After using Foobar2000 to convert to LAME 3.98 320kbps CBR, the replaygain for my MP3s of the GH3 version of Death Magnetic shows:
Album Gain = -1.86 dB
Album Peak = 0.947888
For Track #4, "The Day That Never Comes", my GH3 FLAC->MP3 shows
Track Gain = -2.43 dB
Track Peak = 0.8260007
I think the best version is the one in FLAC format and with a sample rate of 48 kHz. The version with 44.1 kHz must be resampled because the Xbox' digital audio output uses 48 kHz.
I think the best version is the one in FLAC format and with a sample rate of 48 kHz. The version with 44.1 kHz must be resampled because the Xbox' digital audio output uses 48 kHz.
Yes! That's the version I have. The person who recorded it to FLAC from Xbox 360 did it with 48 kHz sampling and made sure the volume was set at the highest point without clipping on 99% of the album.
Here is what the GH3 48kHz sampled version of TDTNC (track 04) looks like under Audacity after converting from the FLAC to LAME 3.98 MP3 320kbps CBR:
Track Gain = -2.43 dB
Track Peak = 0.826007
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8551/deathmagnetict04gh3cy2.jpg) (http://www.imagehosting.com/)
I managed to get a FLAC rip of the GH3 version, omfg it's ALOT better. Someone who did the final album mixing should be named and shamed, for messing up a good album.
Also the bitrates at -V2 --vbr-new are very interesting.
Retail version at -V 2
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9485/deathmagneticbitratesv2mn9.th.png) (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deathmagneticbitratesv2mn9.png)
GH3 version at -V 2
(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/2051/deathmagneticgh3bitratezf4.th.png) (http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=deathmagneticgh3bitratezf4.png)
@ /mnt: Could you please post a spectral view from Track 2 of your FLAC-version? I found one on another forum. It's supposed to be from a FLAC-version, but I wonder why there is a hi-cut at about 16 khz:
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9845/ghftrzgfbg1.th.jpg) (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ghftrzgfbg1.jpg)(http://img227.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Otherwise, I'm not sure, what kind of audio-format is used on this GHIII-Games. Is it uncompressed PCM?
@ /mnt: Could you please post a spectral view from Track 2 of your FLAC-version? I found one on another forum. It's supposed to be from a FLAC-version, but I wonder why there is a hi-cut at about 16 khz:
I made a quick freq analysis on Audicty if that helps.
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1034/dmaggh3tr2flacfreqxs4.th.png) (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dmaggh3tr2flacfreqxs4.png)(http://img205.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Otherwise, I'm not sure, what kind of audio-format is used on this GHIII-Games. Is it uncompressed PCM?
I highly doubt that GH3 is using uncompressed audio. Since lossy audio is really a big norm in video games nowdays, because of faster cpus and ogg vorbis. But sometimes video game devs do take lowering the bitrate abit too far, on games such as GTA 4 (Not sure about the PS3 version though) and Doom 3.
Thank you!
I highly doubt that the pic I found is really from a flac-version. Looks like a transcode to me.
BTW: Does anybody know what this is?:
http://cdon.no/musikk/metallica/death_magn...version-4042940 (http://cdon.no/musikk/metallica/death_magnetic_-_phase_ii_version-4042940)
Someone who did the final album mixing should be named and shamed, for messing up a good album.
100% Agree
About your Encspot captures: the best FLAC version I got (48kHz, mentioned above) has 2 versions of Suicide & Redemption, named JH and KH respectively (James Hetfield and Kirk Hammet I guess). I see only one on your GH3 capture.
BTW is it only my imagination or you've got a massive metal collection there? Beware of L.A.R.S.
Napster...baaaad!
BTW: Does anybody know what this is?:
http://cdon.no/musikk/metallica/death_magn...version-4042940 (http://cdon.no/musikk/metallica/death_magnetic_-_phase_ii_version-4042940)
I have no idea, could be a remix album . It does look like it could be a complete different version, or just the same album with bonus tracks.
Someone who did the final album mixing should be named and shamed, for messing up a good album.
100% Agree
About your Encspot captures: the best FLAC version I got (48kHz, mentioned above) has 2 versions of Suicide & Redemption, named JH and KH respectively (James Hetfield and Kirk Hammet I guess). I see only one on your GH3 capture.
I have the exact same FLAC version, as you have describe. At 48Khz and the 2 versions of Suicide & Redemption. I just left out the JH version, when i was transcoding it to Mp3. Those 2 versions seem to be for co-op mode or something like that.
BTW is it only my imagination or you've got a massive metal collection there? Beware of L.A.R.S.
Napster...baaaad!
LOL
I sorta don't have to worry about the Metallicops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb_jLAisPzk) raiding my house, since my music collection is just almost fully legit, expect the GH3 rip of Deth-Mag and a few very rare albums of course. Also my music collection is mostly Thrash, Heavy, and Industrial Metal.
I highly doubt that GH3 is using uncompressed audio.
I dunno. The 48khz FLAC version has frequency response on the cymbals all the way up to 24khz. No lowpassing at all.
It's a bit off topic, but I was wondering - I heard that Guitar Hero is mixing everything in real time, so you can hear that you "played" the "guitar" wrong... is it possible to extract it all separatly and mix it on your own, or just extract the band playing without vocals, and stuff like that?
I highly doubt that GH3 is using uncompressed audio.
The GH3 download size of Death Magnetic is about 1.4 GiB. That would be pretty much for compressed audio.
I highly doubt that GH3 is using uncompressed audio.
I dunno. The 48khz FLAC version has frequency response on the cymbals all the way up to 24khz. No lowpassing at all.
I highly doubt that GH3 is using uncompressed audio.
The GH3 download size of Death Magnetic is about 1.4 GiB. That would be pretty much for compressed audio.
Am sorry to have been pestimestic about the GH3 version being lossy or lossless. But am glad that some game devs are using lossless audio, unlike most game devs that use lossless textures and lossy audio i.e id Software.
Rush - Signals (1982)
Santana - Festival (1976)
very, very bad equalized; sounds like cassete player with dirty head
Kelly Clarkson - All I Ever Need (released March 10, 2009)
After ripping with EAC and encoding to MP3 using LAME 3.98.2, I get the following replaygain settings in fb2k
album gain = -10.83 dB
album peak = 1.205113
Most of the album's songs have track gains of worse than -10 dB,
with several in the high -9.x dB range, and one in the -8.75 dB range
MGMT - Oracular Spectacular
Definately the worst sounding CD I've bought. Apparently they wanted it to sound awful:
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/173...t_to_watch_mgmt (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/17323914/artist_to_watch_mgmt)
"We redid a lot of our songs that sounded too polished," says Goldwasser. "Dave ended up running the tracks through this thing that crushed them and made them sound really gross again. They're a lot better now."
The result is something that I have to turn down to listen to - damn inverse loudness wars!
TT-DR results of the track Time To Pretend:
-----------------------------------------------
Statistics for: Time to Pretend.wav
-----------------------------------------------
left right
Peak value: -0.75 dB --- -0.84 dB
Avg RMS: -5.89 dB --- -5.57 dB
DR channel: 4.03 dB --- 3.32 dB
-----------------------------------------------
Official DR value: DR4
===============================================
It's down there with Californication! I hear the LP is just as bad.
Worst - pretty much all of Muse. Had to sell them back to CD store. NIN the slip has been mentioned I think and I agree. It's actually almost painful to listen to. About Porcupine Tree. In my opinion, Deadwing was Steven Wilson's only poorly mastered CD.
minus - the great northern whalekill!
album gain -11.09 dB, sounds like crap! if my ears were capable of puking i think they would.
I'm not sure if anybody already said this (this is a long thread), but pretty much any of the 2007-2009 Genesis remasters would qualify. By no means were the 1994 versions perfect (apparently such tools as multi-band dynamic compressors didn't exist at the time--the sibilants can pierce eardrums), but IMHO, as a life-long Genesis fan, the new versions are awful. It's like Atlantic/Rhino made a special DAW plug-in that applies as a batch process every single awful aspect of modern mastering (over-zealous dynamic compression, notched-midrange, gratuitous digital affectation, a bath of period-inauthentic digital reverberation) and then ran all the new digital transfers through this plug-in.
Let me put it this way. I could definitely ABX the two.
Here are some other real clunkers:
Edwin McCain - Misguided Roses
Weird Al - Poodle Hat
Andre Previn/RPO - Gustav Holst: The Planets, Op 32 (on Telarc--yes, that Telarc)
Coheed and Cambria - IV
Genesis - Trespass (MCA and Definitive Edition releases; both stink)
Kansas - Point Of Know Return (2002 remaster)
The Who -Quadrophenia (MFSL Gold Disc, MCA 1996, Polydor Japan 1996, MCA 1990, et al; nobody ever got this one right)
Oh, BTW, this is my first post here. Hi everybody!
I managed to get a FLAC rip of the GH3 version, omfg it's ALOT better. Someone who did the final album mixing should be named and shamed, for messing up a good album.
I've made a comparison (http://img9.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=batchclipresultcd.png)with ClippingAnalyzer (http://www.geocities.com/ber-sd/dl_clipping_eng.html) (free, uses Excel).
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2097/batchclipresultcd.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batchclipresultcd.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1418/batchclipresultgh.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batchclipresultgh.png)
The CD version has one of the highest amounts of clipping I've ever seen (Cyanide).
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6799/resultcyanidecd.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resultcyanidecd.png)
Where clipping is reduced possibly by something like a brickwall limiter (The Day Tha Never Comes) it sounds even worse.
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9193/resultthedaythanevercom.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resultthedaythanevercom.png)
In contrast the measurement result for the GH3 version looks absolutely perfect without any clipping and with great dynamic range.
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8318/resultcyanidegh.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resultcyanidegh.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/566/resultthedaythanevercomz.th.png) (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resultthedaythanevercomz.png)
There's new pop stuff out this year from Denmark.
Sanne Salomonsen, a well-known singer in this country, who had released 4 English albums in sequence in a 12-year timespan from 1996 until 2008, is now hitting the market with another album completely in Danish.
There is NOT ONE BAD SONG on this album!!
But the mastering is a true horror. See, we're talking about a mix of pop and pop-rock here!!!
Who does such insanity? Is this ever gonna stop?
RGs follow...
Sanne Salomonsen - "Unico" - 2009 - Genre: Pop/AOR/Pop Rock
(1) -12.67 dB, (2) -11.45 dB, (3) -10.97 dB, (4) -9.43 dB, (5) -11.48 dB, (6) -11.76 dB, (7) -10.20 dB, (8) -11.68 dB, (9) -11.42 dB, (10) -11.05 dB, (11) -11.69 dB, (12) -8.58 dB
Album Gain: -11.46 dB (!) / Album peak: 1.291197
GOOD GOD. Let alone the acrid trebles which are really stinging sharply in the ears sometimes as if there were needles.
Be thankful to the Hi-Fi gods that multiband compressors didn't exist in the mid-90s. That's exactly the reason why the 1999 Rammstein DVD is superior in sound to its end-2000s counterpart, which requires to revert to the alternative ("ancient") sound system in your DVD player to not completely destroy your ears.
But do you know what's really funny?
Ironically enough, track #3 is called "Fantomsmerter" ("phantom limb pain" in English)!! Oh yes, that's possible to occur if you listen to the clippressed album for too long!
The new Dinosaur Jr. - "Farm" is pretty bad. Not quite as bad as the Raw Power Remaster, but at -14.68 for the album, its up there.
The new Dinosaur Jr. - "Farm" is pretty bad. Not quite as bad as the Raw Power Remaster, but at -14.68 for the album, its up there.
Strange, I listened to the album a lot lately (although via an online stream) and didn't notice that. Actually, I thought it sounded pretty good. I guess this is pure rock&roll, no dynamics needed
Anyway, is your RG value calculated from the original CD?
Do I win?
(http://i44.tinypic.com/9arehc.png)
Wow! Track peak 2 times over the limit!
Wow, I didn't know that was even possible
Worst I've seen so far is about -14 dB (1.337644) on some really crappy bootleg
Is this even music?
I think that depends on how you define music. It's noise, but actually one of the better noise albums I've heard, it has some interesting stuff on it, and actually a good amount of variation. Actually I don't think it's badly mastered at all, the whole point is to be overwhelming and ridiculously loud. It's called Artificial Pomegranate by Government Alpha. It's really heavy.
I have the exact same FLAC version, as you have describe. At 48Khz and the 2 versions of Suicide & Redemption. I just left out the JH version, when i was transcoding it to Mp3. Those 2 versions seem to be for co-op mode or something like that.
The difference in the two songs is the solos, with the JH version having a solo by Hetfield, and the KH version having a solo from Hammet.
It's a bit off topic, but I was wondering - I heard that Guitar Hero is mixing everything in real time, so you can hear that you "played" the "guitar" wrong... is it possible to extract it all separatly and mix it on your own, or just extract the band playing without vocals, and stuff like that?
The tracks are all seperated and are simply playing at the same time. The game just makes the track cut out when notes stop being hit.
Am surprised that no one hasn't mentioned Rabies by Skinny Puppy.
The original 1989 version has to be the worst sounding early mastered CD i've ever heard. The CD version was mastered with Dolby B noise reduction by mistake. Which cEvin Key demended it be remastered (why can't Lars Ulrich or James Hetfield do that aswell with Deaf Magnetic ).
Anyway the digital remaster sounds miles better.
I have the exact same FLAC version, as you have describe. At 48Khz and the 2 versions of Suicide & Redemption. I just left out the JH version, when i was transcoding it to Mp3. Those 2 versions seem to be for co-op mode or something like that.
The difference in the two songs is the solos, with the JH version having a solo by Hetfield, and the KH version having a solo from Hammet.
I know that Kirk plays the KH version and James plays the JH version. For some reason i get a rough idea that those versions were for co-op, but i don't Guitar Hero so am not too sure.
...and another way to completely DESTROY great 80s music.
Even though they didn't do it with each and every track, it pi§§es me off that the great part of their best songs have been (mis)treated this way.
System 56 were a nice little new wave alternative band from Cleveland, OH in the first half of the 1980s, consisting of Steve Simenic, Vince Scafiti and Tom Lash.
But again, they forced me to look out for the original vinyl, albeit that prices are quite high due to their rareness.
In 2003 the original record label Detour Records issued a CD re-release of all their vinyl work...and completely DESTROYED it all again!
I like "Metro-Metro" (non-album track) a LOT; but no longer could I sit comfortably when I saw the brick wall these retards mastered from the once-great vinyl:
Track list speaks for itself. (track gains shown; sane values in blue)
01 Brave New Toys -10.96 dB / 02 Rhythm Before Reason -3.10 dB / 03 Through Other Eyes / 04 Hands of a Stranger -9.73 dB / 05 You're only Dreaming -11.29 dB / 06 The Twilight Index +3.58 dB / 07 Metro-Metro -10.76 dB / 08 In The Old World -10.27 dB / 09 Life On A Cool Curve -9.60 dB / 10 The Other Side Of Science -8.81 dB / 11 A Man Needs A Motor -10.45 dB / 12 Shapes Of Things -0.76 dB / 13 The Sounding -9.66 dB / 14 Your Car Is Waiting -10.27 dB / 15 Next To X -9.73
This makes me angry!!!
Why do they always leave this equipiment to the amateurish ones' filthy fingers who just "crank it all up"?!!
I think Death Magnetic by Metallica sounds like crap but according to Ted Jensen who mastered the album said that the mixers are to blame for the quality of the album
Even Ted Jensen, who is credited with mastering DM in the liner notes, admitted on a message board, “Believe me I’m not proud to be associated with this one, and we can only hope that some good will come from this in some form of backlash against volume above all else.” Jensen said the mixers of the album are to blame for the compression problems. Metallica is usually on hand for the mixing stage, but this time around they were away in Europe.
From http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/inde...r-hero-than-cd/ (http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/09/18/fans-complain-after-death-magnetic-sounds-better-on-guitar-hero-than-cd/)
I highly doubt that GH3 is using uncompressed audio. Since lossy audio is really a big norm in video games nowdays, because of faster cpus and ogg vorbis. But sometimes video game devs do take lowering the bitrate abit too far, on games such as GTA 4 (Not sure about the PS3 version though) and Doom 3.
With PS3 and Blu ray you could easily use lossless with all the extra space you get with blu ray especially dual layer.
With PS3 and Blu ray you could easily use lossless with all the extra space you get with blu ray especially dual layer.
Didn't Konami use lossless audio for MGS 4, which ended up filling up a whole blu ray disc.
Next gen consoles are likely to use Blu Ray and multi DL DVDs packs for PCs and ditch the need for low bitrate lossy audio.
I think the Led Zeppellin albums are the worst mastered albums. They are my favorite, but their mastering process could have been better. Plants high vocals always cut off during his encore sessions in his songs, same goes for JP's guitar solos.
U2's "How to Dismantle An Atomic Bomb" (AKA "How to Become Deaf in 5 Seconds"). Most track gains are around -11.50, some closer to -12.00...
There's also The Apples in Stereo's "Velocity of Sound", with some track gains going near -13.00
(Though honestly, it may have been purposely done like that...)
Anyone bought the Dark Side of the Moon cover album by The Flaming Lips yet? ...iTunes...
As it's a Flaming Lips album I bet it's probably horribly squashed again and horribly sounding (no, I mean the mastering and not their interpretation of the original album).
Disney and Media Ventures dropped the ball with the first Pirates of the Caribbean album. Lots of clipping in some tracks. Very rushed and unprofessional for two companies strongly rooted in the media audio business.
Depeche Mode - Playing the angel
(very bad sound)
Royksopp - The Understanding
Royksopp - Melody A.M.
(it seem for me : bad sound)
I posted this recently, and in this topic or a similar one a while back. Number One Son's Lessons (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002G2E92U) is 43:21 of fizz (and thus could be interesting to compare to Rush's Vapor Trails!)
I have the winner right here. As much as I love what this album is, it is horrible to listen to...
Brandon Boyd - The Wild Trapeze
game set match
This is a little off topic but one of the worst produced albums- way back in the analog days- was Physical Graffiti. The analog tape hiss was horrible. They also didn't bother removing the studio "bloopers" . "Gotta get this airplane off--- nah, leave it" "don't make it my dying dying (cough in background) cough". It is a classic and I love it, but the production could be described as "so bad it's good".
I'd imagine there's a few Depeche Mode fans here, yes? Well if you haven't bought their new album already, think twice. I wish I'd saved my money. I've read a lot about over-compression but never really appreciated what a negative effect it can have until I listened to Playing The Angel. It just sounded flat from beginning to end. Being used to previous albums such as Violator or Black Celebration soothing my audio senses, I wasn't prepared for what was about to be inflicted on my ear drums. To say I was disappointed is an understatement.
There's digital clipping within the first second of track 5, Precious (released as first single from album)...
(http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=depecheprecious0013ys.jpg)
4 years no posts, is there a new thread, or is the list just too long now? Anyway FWIW, I got this SACD rip of DM Playing The Angel. Top two are same bottom is CD version(Precious)
[a href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/2cqw2jl88d7aqff/Waveform%20Full.png?dl=0" target="_blank"]Screenshot here[/url]
Can't embed dynamic pages? Dropbox pics? Whatever.
My Entry: All Radiohead Kid A and up, although I have several different vinyl rips of different albums and sometimes, some songs sound better CD. I think it is the rips though because OK Computer, Hail To The Thief, and In Rainbows(PBTHAL's) sound better than CD, even though every now and then CDs can produce low bass hits that vinyl can't.
King of Limbs - This is a quiet subtle album, compression just sounds silly.
Rammstein - Herzleid - Rockin! Sensucht - Eh, listenable. The rest - TRASH (vinyl rips of all sound so much nicer, like Herzleid)
Arcade Fire - All of them.Tapes n Tapes - Walk It OffNew Order - The Singles 2 DiscBenni Benassi - SatisfactionMetallica - Death Magnetic (duh)Ministry - Cover Up and all after Filth Pig, 2000 or so
Alice In Chains - Alice In Chains (on the fence)
M83 - Hurry Up, Were Dreaming usually don't mind his limited sound as it is mostly drones, but this one is more musical and gets squashed under the weight of itself.
Depeche Mode - Violater is not Playing the Angel but it is still a loud, squashed album. I have to admit it doesn't sound all that bad, but the vinyl shows what your missing. Opinions? I have become almost a pureist since 2007 when I found out about all this. So I don't know if I am just looking at waveforms and not listening to music anymore.
NIN - Fragile - present --exception: Audiophile Master of Hesitation Marks (available from NIN.com only when ordered through NIN.com.) It's STILL loud, but shows how much a couple db can make, and the clean electronic nature of it make it very listenable.
Rancid - Out Came the Wolves. ON topic, I think this thread was about which album do you love and was ruined for you? This one wins for me. Note: I didn't even bother trying to listen to or like anything after, esp. Indestructable - GAWD!
NOFX - Pump Up the Valuum - present. I know Punk is suppose to be loud. But go listen to Punk In Drublic and then something new, like War On Errorism, and tell me how loud punk is "supposed" to be...
AFI - Sing The Sorrow (and everything else 1999 and up)
MGMTNice Surprises post 1995:The Faint - Everything has been great until the 2013 record - Doom Abuse. And so we say goodbye to The Faint...
Bloc Party - Silent Alarm Remixed. How did that happen? Original album is loud trash.
GnR - Chinese Democracy. Too bad the music is, eh...
M.I.A - Arular and the second with Paper Planes on it. I have vinyl rips that I made and then returned the LPs to Amoeba for 75% credit. Cheap TT and So so cartridge... Sound decent, but I can't decide if the CDs are actually more bumpin'. Third album - forget it-- trash.
Wolf Parade - Apologies To The Queen Mary
A new one I didn't give thought to before. Must have happened in the recording process clipping from front to back and it sounds like, oh.
Kanye West - Twisted Dark Fantasy. Vinyl and CD. same master for sure. Must be on purpose but it is so bad.
"X&Y" by Coldplay
A really good album, but... Clips, clips and more clips! And very closed sound: Just listen the guitars in "White Shadows" or "Speed Of Sound". Shit!
"First Impressions of Earth" (or "First Impressions of CLIPPING" ) by The Strokes
Yeah, the clipping on First Impressions of Earth is just as bad as the legendary Californication. Every time there's a sustained note, especially on vocals... cringe
The Mountain by the Heartless Bastards. Even the acoustic guitars are clipped. Apparently Howie Weinberg wasn't able to master the album "loudly" enough the first time, so he remastered it. I don't know if that was at the request of the artist, label, or for his own "satisfaction".
Metallica - Death Magnetic
Got the cd and have tried different rips and remasters but it really sucks