HydrogenAudio

Lossy Audio Compression => MP3 => MP3 - General => Topic started by: user on 2002-09-01 20:56:59

Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-09-01 20:56:59
Last update:
2004-08-16


Thanks to westgroveg, we have a brief summary of today's possibilities:



Quote
This thread is always coming backup so here a few extra hints for users
  • Album analyses  calculates track/album values so performing an album analyses is all you need to do.





  • MP3Gain now supports writing changes to ID3 tag so it is 100% lossless, ie. completely reversible.





  • As of LAME 3.96 (track) replaygain values are automatically written to the lame tag,





  • Unlike MP3Gain, values stored in the lame tag need to be applied during playback which requires more CPU processing & the decoder to be aware.





  • Foobar can automatically scan & adjust replaygain values without any need for MP3Gain but of course some of us don’t like this audio player.




  • One more thing, make sure, you tag before using replaygain or instead of your replaygain values being hidden they appear in the comment field for some reason which can be annoying.

[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=234667"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-09-01 21:31:13
Here is a very short and simple description

How to          Stopping Clipping in Mp3 Files for Newbies   

written by westgroveG




This has been answered by Snelg/User (see post above) but I think this will simplify it for beginners.


"Clipping" is when the music hits max volume and gets distorted.

To  permanently remove clipping and keep volume differences between each track on an album you will need Mp3Gain:

http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~djmrob/mp3g...FULLinstall.zip (http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~djmrob/mp3gain/mp3gainFULLinstall.zip)

Open MP3 Gain, adjust:

Options\Each Folder Is Album (tick)

Options\Advanced\Enable Maximizing Features (tick)

Then do an Album/Radio Analyze,
If Any Mp3 file in Mp3gain has a "Y" (yes) under the clipping bar then, Go to the "modify gain" menu, "Apply max no clip gain for album".

If you only want to modify files with clipping and don't care about keeping volume differences between each track on an album you "Apply max no clip gain for each file" instead of "Apply max no clip gain for album".

And that’s it, now your files have no clipping distortion.






What do you do if you want all your MP3's to have the same volume irrespective of the source album?

auldyin


PS.

This would complete the instruction. (I am at work at present and cannot recollect what to do.......its almost automatic now and I'll be damned if I can remember what I did)






Answer by westgroveG


To get all your files to have the same loudness,

Do a Radio Analysis,

In the, Target  “Normal” Volume Field choose the Volume all your selected files will have (default 89dB is recommended),

Then do a Radio gain.


If you would like your Mp3 files to be as close to your Target  “Normal” Volume as possible while maintaining volume differences between each file on an album you simply
Do a Album Analysis instead of a Radio Analysis & a Album gain instead of a Radio Gain.

And if any file still has clipping you should lower the Target  “Normal” Volume value.

B.TW This is Basically answered in the Mp3Gain Help file. If you are unsure of anything else you should probably refer to it first.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-09-01 21:38:02
MP3-CD album-based MP3Gain adjustment for newbies

written by Shadow RD
« on: January 30, 2002, 03:44:40 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made this list up for myself (yeah I'm a bit lame!) and I thought it may lessen questions to Snelg and help others in the process if I posted it:

------------------------------------------------------------
How To Perform Optimised Album-based MP3 Gain Adjustment For Multiple Albums of MP3s for putting onto MP3-CDs
------------------------------------------------------------


(1) Put MP3 files in sub-folders sorted by album

(2) Open MP3 Gain, adjust:
  Options\Each Folder Is Album (tick)
  Options\Add Subfolders (tick)
  Options\Show Path\File (tick)
  Options\Advanced\Performance (tick both boxes)
  Options\Advanced\Enable Maximising Features (tick)

(3) Set Target "Normal" Volume to 89 dB (if not already) 
  - Using 89 dB for the target volume will probably ensure
    that no clipping will happen even for older albums
    with greater dynamic range
  - if clipping does occur with 89 dB you will have to reduce
    the value
 
(4) File\Add Folder - choose folder containing all the album
  subfolders

(5) Analysis\Album Analysis - does MP3 Gain Analysis album
  by album

(6) Modify Gain\Album Gain - normalizes the MP3 Gain of all
  albums relative to each other and as close as possible
  to 89 dB

(7) Order files by Max Noclip Gain column (first do Radio
  Analysis if Replay Gain information is not there
  anymore) and note smallest value in the column

(8) Modify Gain\Apply Constant Gain - select value noted in
    (7) to increase files gain by (if this is 0.0 then do
    not adjust volume)

------------------------------------------------------------
This should ensure that the MP3s of each album are of comparable loudness and that the overall volume level is optimised.

------------------------------------------------------------
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Vincent Kargatis on 2002-09-17 17:39:41
Is there a way to have mp3gain automatically pick the lowest target volume between the chosen target and max no-clip?  I have plenty of really dynamic music, where the peak is normalized, but the average volume is a lot lower than the target.

I know the "real" answer is to set the target to the "lowest maximized volume" in my collection, but I just don't want to set the gain of my whole collection to such a low value (which would be ~70).  I'd rather just occasionally adjust the volume for these outlier cuts. 

But in the meantime, when I'm doing large folder-based radio gain adjustment, I'm wondering whether I must manually unselect these files so they're not pushed into the clipping range.  It's not *that* hard (sorting by radio gain, and deselecting most of the positive ones - those that have low average volumes), but it's still inconvenient.  Just wondering if I'm missing an option...
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Vincent Kargatis on 2002-09-20 10:01:16
Well, no answer, so I assume no.  Anyway, here's what I'm doing, as I mp3gain my collection (taking a while, since there's about 15,000 to do, though I'm doing them by genre folder, so it's not all at once).

- radio-gain-analyze the folder

- sort by radio gain

- select all negatives (-1.5 down)

- manually additionally select the positive radio gains with max-no-clip-gain greater or equal to the radio  [clip(Radio) will not be Y for these]

- apply radio gain

- then manually select all positive radio gain left with 0 < max-no-clip < radio gain

- apply max-no-clip-gain to those

Then I'm done.  Since I'm using 89 as a target, I have a few left over that are dynamic tracks already peak-maximized but lower avg volume, but these I'll live with and adjust manually when listening as desired.  I have some experimental electronica tracks that have peak-maxed avg volumes in the 50s...

The effort's worthwhile - I have noticed a difference while shuffle listening, among the ones done - better volume balance during the listening period.  Thanks, mp3gain authors!
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: westgroveg on 2002-09-29 07:16:35
Quote
Here is a very short and simple description

How to           Stopping Clipping in Mp3 Files for Newbies    

written by westgroveG

Thanks user, about time someone past that MP3Gain stuff over here.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: High Speed Dubbing on 2002-10-10 23:27:24
Thanx for the tutorial, been looking for help for ages
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: holkie on 2002-10-23 12:19:50
Quote
(7) Order files by Max Noclip Gain column (first do Radio
Analysis if Replay Gain information is not there
anymore) and note smallest value in the column

(8) Modify Gain\Apply Constant Gain - select value noted in
(7) to increase files gain by (if this is 0.0 then do
not adjust volume)


Are steps 7 and 8 required/recommended???
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-10-26 09:59:41
I sort never manually songs.

The first 2 posts say all. (The first one from me with content of me and Snelg, and the second one by westgroveG)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: floyd on 2002-10-28 06:53:34
ok..  what about the best settings for mp3 portables?  I have a creative nomad IIc and I'm assuming it doesn't support mp3gain (do any portables?)..  whats the best way to avoid clipping with it?  use wavgain before encoding to mp3?  any help would be appreciated  thanks.

edit: Apparently the Nomad IIc *does* support mp3gain!  I'm surprised, to say the least.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-10-28 09:20:09
mp3gain:
Hardware support is NOT required...

mp3gain makes changes of volume losslessly in the mp3 file.
So every player plays adjusted volume.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: gfly3 on 2002-10-29 03:03:13
i have searched for the answer for this but could not find a clear answer , can i  use mp3gain on my mp3's then convert to wave and burn to cd. i guess my question is,if i use mp3gain on some mp3's is it carried over to the wave when i convert it ? or does this only apply to mp3 players. please forgive if this has already been posted. thanks gfly3
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Snelg on 2002-10-29 13:59:33
Quote
i have searched for the answer for this but could not find a clear answer; can i  use mp3gain on my mp3's then convert to wave and burn to cd?

YES

Clear enough for ya  ?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: gfly3 on 2002-10-29 20:53:21
clear enough !    and a great app. thanks a million.
gfly3
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-19 04:42:07
This looks like just what I need for MP3 discs.  Many thanks to all those involved as well as help here.

Now....  does anyone know of a similar program for .wav files?  I hope so, because rolling the adjustments by hand is a PITA....

TIA.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Jan S. on 2002-11-19 07:03:54
WAVgain: http://www.answermonkey.net/App_WAVGain.htm (http://www.answermonkey.net/App_WAVGain.htm)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: illdie4u on 2002-11-19 08:03:41
Hello,

how fast does mp3gain work? How long would it take me to adjust about 500 files on a PII 350MHz? Am I able to adjust the mp3's directly on an iPod (will try it this evening, think it should work but may be slow)?

Thanks for helping!

bye

illdie4u
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Jan S. on 2002-11-19 13:48:25
It's the analyse that takes the time, not really the gain change.

Anyway, I imagine that it will take a very long time for you to mp3gain all your files... I believe one album takes about ½-1 hour on my 266 k6...
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: CiTay on 2002-11-19 16:36:48
Time to apply AlbumGain on 12 MP3 files (PIII 1.13 GHz with Seagata Barraccuda IV hard disk):

1 minutes 17 seconds
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-20 12:06:08
Now that I've played with MP3Gain, I've got a couple questions......

I've taken a .wav file (loud rock) and normalized its peak to 98.  Then I ran it thru LAME v3.91 --ap-s -V1.  Then I looked at the MP3Gain track analysis, and it said the average volume was 100.4 and that there was clipping, which makes sense if the average is over 100.

1)  First off, when we talk about "peak to 98", just what does 98 measure?  I've always assumed it was 98% of some sort of maximum, which is why you can't go above 100.

2)  How did a file that had been peaked to 98 wind up with a higher average?  Is this function of the MP3 format only being able to express "volume" (what's the correct term here, amplitude?) in increments of 1.5db?  Does this limitation mean that we get "rounding" errors because it can't express 98 whatever precisely, just the nearest value, and that value can be driven above 100?

3)  What's the highest peak value for a .wav file that won't round to above 100?

TIA.

BTW - very interesting stuff here.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-21 13:32:05
Providing the thread with some more information after doing some reading on various web pages....

It's clear that the process of encoding may introduce clipping to the MP3 even if the source .wav had no clipping itself.  This is particulary a problem with CDs that are recorded at near peak volume and heavily compressed (the entire track is loud).

I had done some comparative analysis with a CD of songs that varied greatly in style and compression to take a look at the effect the --alt-presets had on bit rates and files sizes and still had the MP3 files on my hard drive.  These MP3s were created by ripping the CD to .wav files using EAC, and then after they had been written to the drive, running RazorLame on them with LAME v3.90.2 and v3.91 (which produced exactly the same results, so I'm using 3.91 right now) without any mods whatsoever.

I went back and used MP3Gain to do a track analysis on these MP3s and almost every one has clipping, while CEP reports that none of their source .wav files have clipping.  As a side note, I noticed that a couple tracks that clipped with aps and aps-V1 didn't clip with aps-V0, but that's hardly justification for the increased file sizes.  Anyways....

This was pretty eye-opening.  I hardly want to be spending the time creating MP3s and using a process that lends itself to clipping.  To compensate for this, I've gone back and, using CEP, normalized the .wavs by -2db, and then recreated the MP3s.  Now MP3Gain reports that they come in with average volumes nicely in 90s without clipping, and all but one reported that no more gain could be added without clipping.

Some random comments...

o  MP3Gain is now part of my creation process simply to check for clipping, and when possible, to increase to the max volume without clipping.  My MP3s are still loud enough to be played without having the crank the speakers up to max and I know there's no clipping.  A very nice tool.

o  I was blown away by how many clipped MP3s I have, both of my own doing and from others.  I wonder how much this contributes to people complaining about the format.  Maybe my ears suck, but I'm using Sony Digital Headphones and a TB Santa Cruz, and I'm hard-pressed to hear the spots where the music has been compromised; occasionally I can find it (maybe the crispness of a cymbal is a tad lacking), but the other 99.99% of the time it's spot on.

o  I tried using WaveGain on a collection of tracks I'm about to master and burn for a Christmas CD.  After using MP3Gain, it was a huge letdown.  The resulting files were heavily reduced in volume across the board, and made them sound muffled.  And, some of the tracks were way off, especially softer music that was left disproportinately louder than it should have been.  I guess it's back to doing it by hand.

o  I'm just amazed at how poor a job a number of tracks being released on CDs are.  I mean, if a rank amature at this like me can figure out in a few minutes how to eliminate the hiss at the end of a track and hide the adjustment so you can't tell where it starts, and make it sound 1000xs better than the source, why can't the professional who mastered it do this?  Now it's on to learning how to get rid of the stray noises in the middle.  I'll listen to an MP3 and think I've finally found a sample that's produced whooshing or an artifact, only to discover the garbage is on the source, both listening to the CD and to the EAC-ripped .wav.  Maybe I'm just too picky, but, really, isn't this the kind of stuff the mastering pro is supposed to catch and eliminate before production?


Bottom line....  MP3 creation procedure is now...

1)  Rip with EAC.
2)  Trim silence, kill hiss, and smooth fade-outs when necessary.
3)  Normalize peak to -2db.
4)  Encode with LAME v3.91 --a-ps -V1.
5)  Check for clipping in MP3Gain and increase volume if possible.
6)  Listen.
7)  Tag.
8)  Enjoy!  B)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: CiTay on 2002-11-21 13:43:19
I don't agree with 2), 3) and 5) (the latter part!).
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-21 14:17:42
Quote
I don't agree with 2), 3) and 5) (the latter part!).


I'd be interested in reading why you disagree.  It would help me and anyone else reading to make a better decision.

Re #2:  I'm aware that some hold to the position that the MP3 should be an exact reproduction of the source, warts and all.  Since I don't like extended silence, hiss, or fade-outs that drop off the edge of the table, and have the tools to remove them, I choose to.  If the source is good, I leave it alone.  I look at MP3s like the 45s I used to buy when I was a kid.  If I want to listen to the CD, I'll just play that; it's not my intention to create the CD in another format, but rather to have a jukebox-like collection of tunes for future entertainment.  And if I'm making an audio CD, I pull the tracks from the source if I have them rather than decode the MP3 and work with that, for the obvious loss-of-quality issue.

Re #3:  If I don't normalize, my MP3's will clip, as I've just discovered.  I'm aware that this most likely will introduce rounding errors to the samples, which, at least theoretically, means the MP3 doesn't match the source.  I'm more concerned about the effect clipping may have on my listening enjoyment than what are likely to be rounding errors that are imperceptable.  And, I'm not sure why one would object to normalizing a .wav file well within an acceptable range when the process of encoding it to MP3 makes a far greater change to the original source.  Do you feel there's a better value than -2db that would let me achieve the goal of not clipping and, at the same time, minimize or eliminate the rounding errors?  BTW - I should note that if peak is less than -2db, I wouldn't normalize the .wav, but rather boost the volume with MP3Gain.

Re #5:  Why don't you like increasing the volume of an MP3 if it won't introduce clipping?  Does this introduce rounding errors also?  I was under the impression that one can increase and decrease the gain repeatedly without any loss of information because of the way gain is handled in the format - that's what makes it lossless.  If rounding errors are introduced, then this wouldn't be true.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: CiTay on 2002-11-21 15:42:50
Why i disagree...

with 2): For the very reason you mentioned: I want an exact reproduction, in terms of silences and even hiss (it can add that special flavor, think old jazz records). Silence is encoded at 32 kbps, in MPC even lower, so there's no problem.

with 3): You obviously strive to boost the volume as much as possible (without clipping), however, the perceived loudness doesn't depend on the peak volume (compare dynamically compressed music with classical music). While peak normalizing usually adds some 3 dB noise, the loudness gain is maybe <1 dB with today's music productions. And don't forget that the music has already been peak-normalized in the studio.

Don't get me wrong, your goal is honorable. It's sometimes a good idea to lower the volume *before* encoding, because too loud music can indeed cause problems occasionally. But i would do this with WaveGain. It doesn't draw it's conclusions just from the peak values. If you use it right, it's better than normalizing. Try these switches: "--album --log --gain 3 --dither 3 --apply". With --gain, you can raise the reference volume, if it is too quiet for you. Dithering is also a good idea, it pushes the noise to the HF region, where it doesn't interfere. And of course, AlbumGain, to preserve the volume differences (again, the "exact reproduction" thing).

with 5): Why do you always want to increase volume? Many playback systems start to have problems at -3 dB below FS already. The reference volume in ReplayGain was introduced to have a safe, uniform volume level across the board. You put this ad absurdum. But i'm sure, one day you'll discover the great benefit of ReplayGain... 
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-11-21 16:11:37
Not the best way:

Bottom line.... MP3 creation procedure is now...

1) Rip with EAC
2) Trim silence, kill hiss, and smooth fade-outs when necessary.
3) Normalize peak to -2db.
4) Encode with LAME v3.91 --a-ps -V1.
5) Check for clipping in MP3Gain and increase volume if possible.
6) Listen.
7) Tag.
8) Enjoy! 


My better suggestion:

1) Rip with EAC & tag directly to mp3 / mpc, if you want, you can save in same step the original waves, but quite unnecessary, as you could create high quality mp3s / mpcs .....
2) for original reproduction, leave it out, but for purpose, you can do what you prefer...
3) no, no, no (this is my opinion, if mp3 is your goal, as you have written).
4) umm, --alt-preset standard with addition -V1 is nowhere recommended. There are no test sessions made with this. In fact, the alt-preset was optimized as it is, so you do only cause trouble by adding NOT RECOMMENDED  SWITCHES. For higher or lower quality or filesize, choose recommended presets from list !!
5) check for clipping (yes, here, not earlier like in 2, normalizing the mp3 is lossless by mp3gain, so it is better, and otherwise you would have double work, here in mp3gain you can adjust volumes much better than in step 2.)
6) due to step 1, you save work, just configure eac once.
7) Listen & enjoy !


IMHO, you should try to use programs at their best, so you avoid unnecessary work.

My way for mp3:
1. EAC: rip & encode to mp3/mpc & name & tag ; all in one step !!!
2. mp3gain: analysis -> either max. noclip gain for album, or adjusting album gain to 89db, or similar, all depends on music, album, purpose.
3. Listen & enjoy

I don't need 8 steps...
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-21 17:01:06
Quote
with 2): For the very reason you mentioned: I want an exact reproduction, in terms of silences and even hiss (it can add that special flavor, think old jazz records). Silence is encoded at 32 kbps, in MPC even lower, so there's no problem.


I understand your perspective.  For me, the silence issue is one of not wanting a bunch of seconds of silence on the front or back end of the track.  For instance, the first song on the Counting Crows debut album has something like 14 seconds of silence.  That's great for effect when looking at the album as an artistic entity, but if I add that track to a mix MP3 disc and play it in shuffle mode, everyone's going to wonder why the player quit working.  It's not a file size thing, but rather a mixing thing.  When I burn my own mix CDs, one of the important parts is deciding how much silence to put between each track - some tracks have little to none; I want them them to blend together while others needs more silence for the effect I want to communicate.  As for the hiss, I should be clear that I'm only talking about the hiss at the very end of a track, where the song itself is over but the master tape hiss is still audible.  I don't remaster an entire track.  A lot of CDs are just plain lazy in cleaning this up in the mastering process and I find it very annoying that a great song has to end with hiss that sounds like it's from a casette tape copied three times from the original.


Quote
with 3): You obviously strive to boost the volume as much as possible (without clipping), however, the perceived loudness doesn't depend on the peak volume (compare dynamically compressed music with classical music). While peak normalizing usually adds some 3 dB noise, the loudness gain is maybe <1 dB with today's music productions. And don't forget that the music has already been peak-normalized in the studio.


Yes, I understand the difference between peak and average.  I've found that -2db for peak is a number that lets me produce MP3s that don't clip.  I should be clear that I'm reducing the amplitude when I do this, not raising it.  I haven't had a track yet where the peak is more than -2db, and when I do get one, I'll leave it alone, since it don't expect that it would clip on encoding.  The music that's been peak-normalized in the studio is what's producing clipped MP3's because they're highly compressed tracks with a peak of ~ -.5.  I might find this changes the deeper I get into my CDs, but I went back and did an MP3Gain analysis on a bunch of MP3s I'd already encoded and well over half are clipping.

I'll try some more work with WaveGain, but my initial experience with it was less than positive, and this was partially because of how useful MP3Gain is.  It's my understanding that CEP works at 32-bit and dithers down to 16 when it writes the file.  Are we talking about 2 different types of dithering?  And as for balancing the average volume amongst tracks with WaveGain, I didn't see anyway to pick my target without clipping and it gave me an average that was way too low, which I confirmed looking at the stats in AudioGrabber.  But that's for another thread, and to be sure I haven't spent a lot of time with the program.  MP3Gain makes complete sense, and its analysis tool is extremely helpful.


Quote
with 5): Why do you always want to increase volume? Many playback systems start to have problems at -3 dB below FS already. The reference volume in ReplayGain was introduced to have a safe, uniform volume level across the board. You put this ad absurdum. But i'm sure, one day you'll discover the great benefit of ReplayGain...


As I noted above, I'm almost always decreasing the amplitude as compared to the source.  On the rare occasion I didn't need to, MP3Gain has shown that the opportunity to increase it exists.  In the alternative, I could have gone back to source and re-encoded without the -2db normalization and wound up in the same place, and perhaps that would be a better way to handle it.  The only playback systems I'm concerned about are mine, and I prefer to have the source of the music loud enough to not force me to crank up the volume to abnormal levels just to hear it.  What I noticed about WaveGain is that it reduced the amplitude of the tracks so much they sounded like they were recorded under a pillow.

I'll be happy to explore ReplayGain further - after all, it's the foundation for MP3Gain, right?, and I'm very impressed with that, although I do find that the default goal of 89db is a bit too low for my liking, on an individual track basis.  I understand that when the day comes to burn a 100 MP3 disc, there's going to be some softer (on an average volume basis) tracks and that the louder ones will have to come down because raising the softer ones will result in clipping.  And, as has been pointed out, if, down the road, I find my MP3s are too loud, I can run them thru MP3Gain and kick them down a notch or two without any loss of information.


BTW - what does FS stand for?  And what playback systems are you aware of that have problems as amplitude approaches 0db?  Are you saying as average volume moves past -3db, or peak?  I'm assuming it's peak.

I've only seen the math (and it's not in front of me) for a couple days on the relationship between % and db, but I seem to recall that -1db == 81%, and I know from the analysis that AudioGrabber does, most of the tracks I'm working with have an average around this (usually between 65% and 80%).  I'm not trying to pin the VU meter in the red, but I guess, at this point, I don't see the problem with the MP3 itself providing "robust" volume so I don't have to crank the speakers up to 11 just to hear the music.

But I'm here to learn, and I appreciate this discussion.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: CiTay on 2002-11-21 17:27:35
Quote
As for the hiss, I should be clear that I'm only talking about the hiss at the very end of a track, where the song itself is over but the master tape hiss is still audible.


Ah, i'm sorry, i thought you were talking about some kind of noise reduction for whole songs. This is something different then.

Quote
Are we talking about 2 different types of dithering?


My bad again. I meant dithering in conjunction with noise shaping. But don't give up on WaveGain yet, you can do exactly what you need with it (clipping prevention + uniform, but modest, volume reduction)! Experiment with the --gain switch, as explained in the command-line help.

Quote
BTW - what does FS stand for? And what playback systems are you aware of that have problems as amplitude approaches 0db?


Well, many consumer soundcards begin to distort at -3 dB. There was a sample somewhere, for testing with your own system... maybe i'll find it later. "FS" means full scale, BTW. Also, in many CD players, high frequencies can't be reproduced up to full 0 dB; instead, the peaks get cut off during playback. This has been reported in an AES paper IIRC.

Quote
to crank up the volume to abnormal levels just to hear it.


No, there's only one thing that's abnormal: The volume level on today's CDs. A reference volume of 89 dB, as applied by ReplayGain, is an intelligent countermeasure.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-21 17:49:04
Quote
3) no, no, no (this is my opinion, if mp3 is your goal, as you have written).


But if I don't, then my MP3s will almost certainly clip.  I see you're ripping and encoding in one step.  Leaving aside the issue of .wav editing before encoding, how do you prevent clipping in your MP3s?  I'm doing this to reduce the amplitude of the source and prevent clipping, not to increase its amplitude before encoding.


Quote
4) umm, --alt-preset standard with addition -V1 is nowhere recommended. There are no test sessions made with this. In fact, the alt-preset was optimized as it is, so you do only cause trouble by adding NOT RECOMMENDED SWITCHES. For higher or lower quality or filesize, choose recommended presets from list !!


I asked for feedback in the presets thread, and so far haven't received any.  If there hasn't been any testing, how do you know that adding this switch will cause trouble?  I understand that it's not on on the recommended list, but that doesn't mean it therefore causes problems.  As I wrote in the other thread, I remember agreeing with the argument for V1 on the r3mix site, and would like to keep this in the absense of knowledge that it's adversly affecting the encoding.  I did read a message where someone reported swooshing with -V0.  I guess I' m just one of those people who, when told "You're not supposed to do that!", reply, "Why not?"  But this is for another thread.


Quote
5) check for clipping (yes, here, not earlier like in 2, normalizing the mp3 is lossless by mp3gain, so it is better, and otherwise you would have double work, here in mp3gain you can adjust volumes much better than in step 2.)


Well, if your MP3 is clipping at this point, it's already damaged, right?  I mean, if amplitude is an 8-bit signed integer and there are frames where the value is 16384, using MP3Gain to reduce this value won't get back the information that was clipped off during the encoding process, right?  Yes, after you apply the gain change, a second analysis will report no clipping, but that's because you reduced a clipped number.  My goal is to be sure there's never a clipped number in the original MP3; after that, you can move it up and down all you want (as long you as don't clip it in the process), and the changes will be lossless, right?

When you run MP3Gain on your just-created MP3s and see that some are clipped before you apply any changes, how do you feel about that?


Quote
I don't need 8 steps...


Well, I'm all for efficency, too, but all my work is going thru a .wav editor for the reasons I've already explained before it gets encoded, so using EAC to encode and tag isn't an option.  I'll gladly modify what I'm doing as long as it doesn't harm the result.  That's why I want to better understand how gain modification affects .wav files as well as why adding the -V1 switch may affect the quality of the MP3.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-11-21 18:07:46
"If there hasn't been any testing, how do you know that adding this switch (-V1 to aps) will cause trouble? "

erm, misunderstanding, the --alt-presets have been developed and tested over a long time.
It is obvious that developers will have considered of v0, or v1 vs. v2.
If they took v2, they will have had their reasons.

But this belongs to another thread.





" Well, if your MP3 is clipping at this point, it's already damaged, right? "



hmm, probably your misconception of mp3.

As far as today I understood mp3 with mp3gain as follows:

the clipping (higher peaks than 32767) shown in mp3gain is the clipping that would occur AFTER DEcoding to 16bit, 44.1 wave.

So, mp3 saves properly these values above 32767. Only the decoder will cut at 32767.

So, the mp3 itself is NOT damaged, if it contains values above 32767.
(only the decoded wave would be)
So, lowering/increasing the volume lossless (see !)  by mp3gain, you can create mp3s, which don't clip, or even clip after decoding.

you may take a proper mp3 with max gain peak value below 32767.
you can increase the volume losslessly  by mp3gain to values far above from 32767, to 50000 for example, no problem, really.

If you play such mp3, you will know, what clipping is...

Then take this mp3 with values above 50000 and decrease the volume below 32767.

It will sound well again !!!
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-21 20:05:28
Quote
hmm, probably your misconception of mp3


Well, that could well be the case.  That's why I'm here.

I went back and read the help file for MP3Gain, and I misunderstood what the clipping indicator meant.  It actually means that it will clip upon decoding.  But, I think we can agree that an MP3 file isn't of much value until it's been decoded, so we need to adjust it to prevent this.

We can do this one of two ways:

1)  Adjust the .wav file before encoding such that the resulting MP3 file won't clip when decoded.
2)  Adjust the MP3 file after encoding.

I was also mistaken about what was being stored.  The globabl gain value, according the help file, is an 8-bit integer, so this has to be between 0 and 255.  It also explains why the increment of change is 1.5db.  I'm going to read up more on the Global Gain Field, since there has to be some limitation to how much you can increase or decrease the number, (which I hope is addressed in the program), but what's important here is to recognize this increment itself.

So, the question comes down to this: Is it better to adjust the .wav before encoding where the adjustment increment can be virtually unlimited but introduce rounding errors to the original sample values or adjust the MP3 file after encoding where the adjustment increment is rather coarse, but applied to a file created from a "true" source?

Opinions?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-11-21 21:06:56
you know my opinion.

to do it with the least time and work, but result is the closest to original source:

1. eac -> ripping & encoding to mp3 & naming & tagging
2. mp3gain -> analysis -> noclipgain, adjusting averaged volumes to album or title levels.

if you want to work with/on the specific music, you will do it on the waves.
but very likely you have to do still mp3gaining/noclip after encoding to mp3, due to peaks created by encoding to mp3.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: CiTay on 2002-11-21 21:37:46
Here's the file i mentioned before: overloadtest.flac (http://www.citay.de/links/sumo/overloadtest.flac)

Check when your soundcard distorts. Use headphones if you can, and don't turn it up too loud.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: tangent on 2002-11-22 04:29:23
Quote
So, the question comes down to this: Is it better to adjust the .wav before encoding where the adjustment increment can be virtually unlimited but introduce rounding errors to the original sample values or adjust the MP3 file after encoding where the adjustment increment is rather coarse, but applied to a file created from a "true" source?

If you have been around for a while, the forum in general recommends using mp3gain based on the philosophy of not touching the original as much as possible, and I concur.

Regarding -v1 and -v2:
There are many things to adjust which can affect the quality of a VBR encoding, and -v is one of them. -v mainly deals with the position of the ath curve iirc, and is not really the optimal way of scaling VBR presets although it is a quick and easy way. During testings, Dibrom found that going below -v2 is redundant so that is probably around where the real ath lies. In most cases you get larger bitrates but the quality would not be noticable, and the bits are probably better spent in other ways. In some cases, especially when you hit the 320kbps frame limit you may get lower quality where bits are not optimally used.


[EDIT]
Another reason to use mp3gain is that you can be sure that the result will not clip. If you do your own normalizing before hand, you have absolutely no idea how much you need to attenuate by to prevent clipping.
[/EDIT]
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-22 09:45:41
Quote
Here's the file i mentioned before: overloadtest.flac

Check when your soundcard distorts. Use headphones if you can, and don't turn it up too loud.


Thanks.  Got it and the plug-in for winamp.  It sounds like a constant tone that gets louder.  I don't hear any distortion.  Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail what I'm looking for and how to do it, or pointing to a link.  I'm using a TB Santa Cruz with Sony MDR-CD999 headphones.

Thanks.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-22 09:55:01
Quote
If you have been around for a while, the forum in general recommends using mp3gain based on the philosophy of not touching the original as much as possible, and I concur.

Another reason to use mp3gain is that you can be sure that the result will not clip. If you do your own normalizing before hand, you have absolutely no idea how much you need to attenuate by to prevent clipping.


Yes, I'm aware of that perspective, and, in general agree with it.  I need to do more research into the effect the rounding errors have on the samples when applying the adjustment to the .wav file.  I've found, in limited testing to be sure, that an absolute peak normalization of -2db prevents clipping when encoded.  Further testing might reveal this number can be a bit less, as well as that there are tracks where even this isn't enough, although it passed muster on one that was extremely loud and compressed the whole way thru.


Quote
Regarding -v1 and -v2:
There are many things to adjust which can affect the quality of a VBR encoding, and -v is one of them. -v mainly deals with the position of the ath curve iirc, and is not really the optimal way of scaling VBR presets although it is a quick and easy way. During testings, Dibrom found that going below -v2 is redundant so that is probably around where the real ath lies. In most cases you get larger bitrates but the quality would not be noticable, and the bits are probably better spent in other ways. In some cases, especially when you hit the 320kbps frame limit you may get lower quality where bits are not optimally used.


Thanks.  Now we're getting somewhere.  We should probably continue this on the settings thread, so I'm going to go over there.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: tangent on 2002-11-22 10:39:09
Quote
Yes, I'm aware of that perspective, and, in general agree with it.  I need to do more research into the effect the rounding errors have on the samples when applying the adjustment to the .wav file.  I've found, in limited testing to be sure, that an absolute peak normalization of -2db prevents clipping when encoded.  Further testing might reveal this number can be a bit less, as well as that there are tracks where even this isn't enough, although it passed muster on one that was extremely loud and compressed the whole way thru.

This depends on settings used.
-aps should clip very rarely
-ap128 requires 93% normalisation
If you check out the -ap table in the source codes, the recommended --scale decreases as bitrate decreases.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: floyd on 2002-11-22 10:49:14
I got quite a bit of clipping in some Iron Maiden with -ap128, when using the default scale .93.  Total number of clipped samples was reduced from using --scale 1, but still high enough to be audible in places.  I'm not really convinced scale is a parameter the presets should be promoting, when we are at the same time promoting mp3gain as the solution to clipping and volume normalization across tracks/albums. 

Also I don't think that a lot of LAME users even know that --scale is being used in the presets, and probably mp3gain afterward anyway.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: CiTay on 2002-11-22 12:26:57
Quote
Would you mind explaining in a bit more detail what I'm looking for and how to do it

Just listen to it. You shouldn't hear the differential tone at 3.7 kHz. If you do, your soundcard distorts. Bad soundcards already distort at -6 dB, better ones maybe at -2 dB. The sample goes from -12 dB to 0 dB.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-22 12:51:52
Quote
This depends on settings used.
-aps should clip very rarely


Looking at the analysis from the CD I used to test various settings, MP3Gain reports that 11 out of 13 songs are clipping when encoded with --a-ps and --aps-V1.  When encoded at --a-ps-V0, it drops to 9 out of 13.  And that's based on a straight encode of the .wav with absolutely no adjustments made to the source before encoding.  Yes, it's a loud CD of rock Xmas music that seem to be from various sources and not much time was spend mastering them together, and it's just one CD.  But that's the datapoint I have.

I just ran MP3Gain against the same 13 files encoded at --a-pe and it's still 11 out of 13, but the two tracks that aren't clipping are different than the two at aps.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AreteOne on 2002-11-22 12:57:46
Quote
Just listen to it. You shouldn't hear the differential tone at 3.7 kHz. If you do, your soundcard distorts. Bad soundcards already distort at -6 dB, better ones maybe at -2 dB. The sample goes from -12 dB to 0 dB.


Ok. Great.  The first time I tried it I had the volume way down per your warning, so I didn't hear anything until the very end.  After turning it up, I still don't hear anything at first, and then it's a constant sound that gets louder until it stops.  It never distorts.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: CiTay on 2002-11-22 13:01:51
Quote
After turning it up, I still don't hear anything at first, and then it's a constant sound that gets louder until it stops.

You're overcautious. You should make it loud enough to clearly hear the tone at the beginning. My warning about the loudness is not because of your ears, but because of cheap tweeters in PC speakers! The speakers in headphones should be more robust.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: tangent on 2002-11-22 15:56:33
Quote
Looking at the analysis from the CD I used to test various settings, MP3Gain reports that 11 out of 13 songs are clipping when encoded with --a-ps and --aps-V1.  When encoded at --a-ps-V0, it drops to 9 out of 13.  And that's based on a straight encode of the .wav with absolutely no adjustments made to the source before encoding.  Yes, it's a loud CD of rock Xmas music that seem to be from various sources and not much time was spend mastering them together, and it's just one CD.  But that's the datapoint I have.

Since -aps has been tested extensively by Dibrom, what I assume is that clipping does occur with -aps, but are often not audible. To be audible, clipping normally has to occur for quite a few consecutive samples. You can set this threshold for clipping detection in advanced wave editors, but I guess mp3gain doesn't do this and detects all single sample clippings.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: illdie4u on 2002-11-28 07:51:47
Is there any problem if I set the output level in MP3Gain to 92dB instead of the recommended 89dB and MP3Gain says there is no clipping in my MP3 Files? Adjusting them to 89dbB makes them sound 'very' silent on my iPod (don't want to hear my music with the volume control at 60%).

Thanks for helping.

illdie4u
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2002-11-28 07:57:35
if there is no clipping, all is fine.

For those reasons, there you have the possibility to adjust to max. noclip gain.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: illdie4u on 2002-11-28 08:04:18
But for portable reasons I want my whole collection to have almost the same volume, but 'max. noclip gain' won't do this, because every single song gets his maximum non clipping volume, right?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: ronnie_t on 2003-01-05 11:53:44
what mp3-gain program should i use, and where can I download it?
As a newbie, I could not follow the FAQ, because I have the program MP3Gain, but this program doesn't have te same options as discribed in this FAQ (current peak level, radio-gain, options-menu)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Volcano on 2003-01-05 13:48:14
http://www.geocities.com/mp3gain/ (http://www.geocities.com/mp3gain/)

If you wait a few days, you'll get a nice, fresh, tidied-up 1.0 release.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: ronnie_t on 2003-01-05 15:41:56
i use that version, but again, I can't follow this FAQ!
Can I use an older version or does this FAQ need to be re-written?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Bones on 2003-01-05 16:46:36
I just checked out that overload sample.  I used a pair of Grado SR80 phones with a TB Santa Cruz, played using Foobar.  Results were somewhat interesting:

- Without the -6dB limiter, I heard no change in tone.
- With the -6dB limiter, I heard no change in tone.
- With equalizer DSP and limiter, I heard no change in tone.
- With the resampling DSP set to 48KHz, I heard a change in tone near the end of the sample.  Fast and slow mode resampling made no difference.

I guess resampling to 48 is not all it's purported to be.  I don't use the resampler, 'cause I could never hear a difference, but this sample clearly demonstrates that there is one.  I'm not sure how often this sort of artifact would occur in real music with the resampler, but I'll definitely never use it after hearing that.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Volcano on 2003-01-06 14:42:09
ronnie_t:

Quote
Can I use an older version or does this FAQ need to be re-written?


I don't know, I have never read it  MP3Gain includes a nice help file which describes very clearly how to use the program, try that. Although I don't understand how one can find the program that hard to use, to be honest...
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Moguta on 2003-04-26 02:47:20
mp3gain claims to be a lossless change to mp3 files, yet it changes their volume level & I do not see any sort of "undo mp3gain."  Sure, people could use a constant gain of 0.0, but a whole lot of people aren't going to understand that doing that effectively undos the mp3gaining.

Also, would it be worth it to make an option that applies the max gain for no clipping, only to files that would clip after being regularly mp3gained?

Something more technical... how does every standard MP3 player/decoder realize the MP3 gain value stored in the MP3?  Is it some typically unused field in MP3s, or what?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Volcano on 2003-04-26 11:58:34
The current (non-public) beta version of MP3Gain does have an Undo feature - it stores the necessary information in an APEv2 tag. Also, it can store ReplayGain information which is compatible with foobar2000.

And the "don't clip when doing track gain feature" is also already implemented and works beautifully.

I suppose Glen will release it within the next few weeks.

--
Regards,

Dominic Jefferies
Snelg Software Inc.
MP3Gain inofficial spokesman 
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Moguta on 2003-04-26 19:02:25
Sweet!

Actually, a question occured to me... *CAN* the current mp3gain undo gain manually?  Or is the mp3-gain-amount information not recoverable from the MP3 file with the current version?

And I'm still curious how mp3gain manages to work with every mp3 decoder.  What does it modify that every dencoder can recognize?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Volcano on 2003-04-27 16:48:34
Quote
Actually, a question occured to me... *CAN* the current mp3gain undo gain manually? Or is the mp3-gain-amount information not recoverable from the MP3 file with the current version?


If you know the gain changes you applied to the files (you can have MP3Gain save all gain changes to a log file), you can reverse it by manually applying a constant gain of the same value *(-1). If you don't have the logging feature enabled though, you're stuck. (For many modern albums, the original volume is one 1.5 dB step above the max no-clip volume.)


Quote
And I'm still curious how mp3gain manages to work with every mp3 decoder. What does it modify that every dencoder can recognize?


Take a look at the supplied help file, the way MP3Gain modifies MP3 files is nicely explained there. It modifies the Global Gain field of each frame header.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Moguta on 2003-05-09 01:32:24
Quote
I suppose Glen will release it within the next few weeks.

Arg, I'm too impatient!
*paces the room, waiting for the new mp3gain to be released*
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: MadBison on 2003-06-06 00:16:36
I have an Archos Jukebox Multimedia 020. This is a portable MP3 Player.

Does anyone have any suggestions for the use of MP3 Gain for use in levelling for portable MP3 Players like this? I currently have songs at all sorts of levels, and one minute I am straining to listen, next I am nearly deaf from the loudness on the next random song.

I know there is Album Gain, Track Gain, and all sorts of no clip max gain, etc. Really I want one thing only. If I am listening to all of my songs on the player, I want them to sound all about the same volume.

What is the best settings for this? If someone has already come up with some good settings for this, and can share them, I would greatly appreciate it.

On a side note, why is it that some of the CDs I have converted to MP3 have all of the songs recorded as 100% gain in EAC? From reading this thread, it seams that this would be a bad idea. Is it just cheap CD manufacture?

Thank you
David
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Jebus on 2003-06-06 03:38:36
Quote
I have an Archos Jukebox Multimedia 020. This is a portable MP3 Player.

Does anyone have any suggestions for the use of MP3 Gain for use in levelling for portable MP3 Players like this? I currently have songs at all sorts of levels, and one minute I am straining to listen, next I am nearly deaf from the loudness on the next random song.

I know there is Album Gain, Track Gain, and all sorts of no clip max gain, etc. Really I want one thing only. If I am listening to all of my songs on the player, I want them to sound all about the same volume.

What is the best settings for this? If someone has already come up with some good settings for this, and can share them, I would greatly appreciate it.

On a side note, why is it that some of the CDs I have converted to MP3 have all of the songs recorded as 100% gain in EAC? From reading this thread, it seams that this would be a bad idea. Is it just cheap CD manufacture?

Thank you
David

Well, if you simply use album gain, then all your tracks will be approximately the same volume (or at least closer than before) but the quiet songs will still remain quiet as intended, and the loud songs loud. I think this is a better setting than just track gain, because that would make all the songs the same volume, regardless of whether they were supposed to be quiet or not. Of course, using album gain also has the benefit of being able to play back a single album with all its dynamics intact.

So use album gain.. Oh, and don't mess with the 89dB default. It works best.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AlfredSka on 2003-06-06 09:01:01
Quote
- Outdated info, taken down for a complete re-write -

CiTay

Any progress on the rewrite?  I've never used MP3 Gain, and I'd like to make sure I do it correctly if I am to try it out.  Thanks.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: pepe,pepe! on 2003-06-07 01:46:31
I totally agree with Jebus the best way to use mp3 gain is to leave de default level volume so almost any

mp3 won´t clip and to use album gain because every file sounds at it´s natural volume level.


Also I want to say that mp3 gain is very useful if you are an mp3 user, try it, if you haven´t done it yet!
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: RaWShadow on 2003-06-26 22:42:06
I have never used this mp3gain before and was wondering if my soundcard drivers Auto Gain Control does the same thing as mp3gain. here is picture of the option http://www.tolley8.freeserve.co.uk/audio.PNG (http://www.tolley8.freeserve.co.uk/audio.PNG)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: CiTay on 2003-06-26 23:21:13
Quote
I have never used this mp3gain before and was wondering if my soundcard drivers Auto Gain Control does the same thing as mp3gain. here is picture of the option http://www.tolley8.freeserve.co.uk/audio.PNG (http://www.tolley8.freeserve.co.uk/audio.PNG)

Certainly not. Replaygain has to scan the whole file (or an album in AlbumGain mode), it can't work on-the-fly.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: RaWShadow on 2003-06-27 00:25:36
Okay i think i understand now. I read the windows media player 9 help files and it can add volume leveling values to Windows Media files or MP3 files so they all have the same volume level. So mp3gain does the same thing right? and does anyone know what Auto Gain control is in my sound drivers? Thanx
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Jebus on 2003-06-27 00:48:30
Quote
Okay i think i understand now. I read the windows media player 9 help files and it can add volume leveling values to Windows Media files or MP3 files so they all have the same volume level. So mp3gain does the same thing right? and does anyone know what Auto Gain control is in my sound drivers? Thanx

Yeh, WMP9 does essentially the same thing as replaygain (NOT mp3gain), in the sense that it adds tags which contain volume information. MP3Gain adjusts the files instead. I personally prefer to use MP3Gain in album mode and just turn off the WMP9 one because frankly I don't know how good it is, and in addition I want the files to sound the same even on portables (which obviously can't read the WMP9 tags).

The Auto Gain control probably just limits all the tracks to the same peak level, as most normalizers do. Problem is, peak level is a poor indicator of average volume.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AstralStorm on 2003-06-27 00:55:08
Auto Gain Control reduces/increases gain to match some give value
basing on the gain of recently played audio.
Tends to destroy dynamics. It can work in realtime.

ReplayGain reduces/increases gain so that the audio percieved volume is same across tracks.
(Near -6 db at 1kHz, sensitivity of the ear at given frequency computed using A-weighted curve.)
Doesn't destroy dynamics, can't work in realtime.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Raffles on 2003-07-26 01:33:07
Am I right in assuming mp3gain is the same thing as Replaygain in foobar ?

So as an alternative to using mp3gain I can just Replaygain with foobar and get the same results, yes ?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: 12345 on 2003-07-27 19:09:54
Quote
Am I right in assuming mp3gain is the same thing as Replaygain in foobar ?

From what I've understood foo only stores the replaygain info in the database whereas MP3Gain actually alters the global gain field of every frame in the mp3 file.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Pio2001 on 2003-08-16 09:49:01
89 db reference question splitted here  : http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=12315 (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=12315)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Agitator on 2003-12-11 12:55:06
Hi, I have some questions regarding MP3Gain.

Let's say I rip a CD with EAC, encode it with LAME, and then use MP3Gain to adjust it.

As an alternative, I'd rip the CD with EAC, use MP3Gain (or something similar, if MP3Gain doesn't support WAV), and then encode it with LAME.

Would there be any differences between the resulting MP3s?


/Agitator
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Hanky on 2003-12-11 13:14:23
@Agitator,
This has been discussed many times before:
here (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4596)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Agitator on 2003-12-11 13:20:28
Thanks, I looked for something like that, but didn't find it.
Guess I'm blind 


/Agitator
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: PeterGV on 2003-12-24 00:25:15
I've used MP3GAIN for quite a while, and I've studied the open source code a good bit.  I'm no MP3 encoding expert, but I *do* have one observation:

I am very tired of seeing MP3GAIN being described as a "lossless" process -- If you eq a file to be at lower volume than that at which it is originally encoded, using MP3GAIN or anything else, you will of necessity lose the softest pasages.  So, for example, if I take 6db off a recording, anything that was recorded at the level of 6db or less in the original recording will, indeed, be lost.

I fear what people mean when they say MP3GAIN is "lossless" is that it's non-"destructive" of the original file info -- the MP3GAIN process can be reversed.  But this does not make the gain adjustment LOSSLESS.

The assumption here is that MP3GAIN doesn't do any compression... that it does a simple adjustment of the gain (which, from my examination of the code, seems to be correct).  Or, am I missing something?

Thanks,

PeterGV
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Squibbles1092 on 2003-12-24 02:43:37
I just started MP3Gaining my files, but I couldn't find:

Options\Each Folder Is Album (tick)

Or most of the other options listed in the first couple posts..
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AtaqueEG on 2003-12-24 04:34:36
Quote
I just started MP3Gaining my files, but I couldn't find:

Options\Each Folder Is Album (tick)

Or most of the other options listed in the first couple posts..

This option has been gone for quite some time.

You have to load one folder at a time and adjust it.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: TwoJ on 2003-12-24 06:58:16
Actually, not so
If you load up a folder, each subfolder will be treated as a seperate album gain analysis.
Been doing it today - you can run it and check.

if you want to go automatic get case's sweep command utility and put in the command line to mp3gain to do album gain analysis through your files
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Squibbles1092 on 2003-12-24 07:14:32
Ahh. Thanks. I queued up my entire folder with subdirectories of albums. It works perfectly. Each folder is treated as an album.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Jack Comics on 2004-01-12 00:30:51
Quote
- Outdated info, taken down for a complete re-write -

CiTay

It's been seven months since the original information was taken down.  Is there anything new?  Besides leaving the suggested decible setting at 89 dB, are there any MP3Gain recommendations?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: mj-barton on 2004-01-12 07:20:55
Once my semester finals are out of the way.  I'll sit down and experiment with the mp3gain and see what works best.  I'll then hopefully compile everything into a useful tutorial.  Semester finals will be over the friday January 23.  Until them keep posting and hopefully some of the others have experimented. 

Along with EAC, LAME, and MP3Gain is there anything else required to do this? Im putting all the eggs in one basket.  LOL.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2004-01-12 08:40:43
for mp3,
you need EAC, Lame.exe, mp3gain, nothing more, maybe foobar2000 as best player.

Maybe Easylame or razorlame.

About the mp3gain guide:


I am sure, snelg has included all information in his help texts inside the mp3gain program.

If you are unsure how it works,
Just get it and run it over eg. 3 songs as test-album, maybe anotehr testalbum with additional 3 songs, both testalbums in 1 test folder.


If you need assistance, guides are here in 2nd (by westgroveG) and 3rd post, still, the erased 1st post is not needed, just read the 1st page (2nd, 3rd post will be enough).
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Moguta on 2004-01-24 22:11:50
I'm getting an error whenever I use MP3gain...

"Failed to load control 'ImageList' from MSCOMCTL.OCX.  Your Version of MSCOMSTL.OCX may be outdated.  Make sure you are using the version of the control that was provided with your application."

I installed the "full" MP3gain package, I even tried manually deleting MSCOMCTL.OCX & reinstalling it from the full MP3gain installer, but every time I try to run MP3gain that error pops up.  =(

EDIT: I noticed that Speek's MultiFrontend also uses the same OCX library, and also comes with a VB runtime library.  Installing Multi's included MSCOMCTL.OCX still brought up the same problem, but installing the VB runtime files solved the problem completely.

I would've thought that the full MP3Gain install would include everything nessesary to run the program. 
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2004-03-17 20:18:49
somebody requested in PM to me a rewrite of the mp3gain guide, according to new improved mp3gain.

Who wants to  ?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Dr.Karnage on 2004-03-17 21:22:47
Maybe this has already been answered, but should I use the MP3Gain program or could I just use the replaygain scanner in foobar2000?
Which is the better?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AstralStorm on 2004-03-17 21:33:16
MP3Gain is applied to the file - any player (including hardware) will play the file with given gain,
as opposed to Foobar's scanner, which stores replaygain info in the tags:
a player must support it in order to read this gain.

The better is the one that suits your interests.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: HiFiRE on 2004-07-04 02:02:06
Couple questions...

I'm running MP3Gain 1.2.3 and a lot of the options mentioned in the tut are moved/missing, so I did the best I could to MP3Gain all my mp3's to 89dB. At least 80% of my 5k mp3s will have clipping according to this setting. I tried 83dB and little has changed. Should I try lower than 89 or higher?

Secondly, MP3Gain tells me maximizing is bad, so I didn't use it. Maybe this is why I'm getting such severe clipping... I'll fiddle and find out. Should I ignore MP3Gain's warning?

Thirdly, I can't find the radio/audiophile option, is it gone?

One last Q... does winamp need a plugin for replay gain stuffs?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Joelman on 2004-08-11 14:45:34
I'm brand new to this forum, and I hope I'm not repetitive. I apoligize do repeat a question.

I use a 4G ipod, 40Gb which is already loded with tons of my songs (about 70% full). As I understand it, in order to acheive "normalized" volume among my tunes, I ought to run MP3 gain at 89Db on album gain, to maintain the dynamics of each album (Jebus, 6/03). That's fine.

Now, I have all my songs in iTunes and before I discovered the MP3 Gain Program I would adjust the iTunes volume slider for each album, attempting to bring all of my albums to similar levels. Once I run MP3 Gain as described above, should I #1)wipe my iPod and reload it with the newly MP3gained tracks, and/or #2) can I select all of my albums and reset the volume slider to default and have my tracks all be pleasing in volume?

As you can likely tell, I'm not too savvy on the ins and outs of audio. I just don't want to have to leap for the volume on my stereo after every track.

Thanks in advance, and thanks to all who posted in the past. Its all been very informative.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Otto42 on 2004-08-11 15:36:39
Quote
Now, I have all my songs in iTunes and before I discovered the MP3 Gain Program I would adjust the iTunes volume slider for each album, attempting to bring all of my albums to similar levels.

Just out of curiousity, why not enable SoundCheck? That's what it's designed to do. It's not quite as good as ReplayGain, but it's not bad, in my experience.

Quote
Once I run MP3 Gain as described above, should I #1)wipe my iPod and reload it with the newly MP3gained tracks, and/or #2) can I select all of my albums and reset the volume slider to default and have my tracks all be pleasing in volume?

Ideally, you will want to remove the tracks from the iTunes library, make sure none of them have the iTunNorm comment tag in them, and readd them to the iTunes library. This ensures that the new, adjusted volume, will be scanned correctly by the iTunes SoundCheck routine, and that the level adjustments won't be ridiculously off if you happen to enable SoundCheck at some future point.

Of course, clearing the iTunes library and re-importing your music will mean the loss of Playcounts, Last Played time, and Rating information. You can use this little script I wrote to save/restore this information from/to iTunes: http://otto.homedns.org:8888/itunes/SaveRatings.zip (http://otto.homedns.org:8888/itunes/SaveRatings.zip)

Or just use foo_pod instead. It'll convert ReplayGain information from foobar 2000 into correct SoundCheck information on the iPod, without the need to use MP3Gain to modify the actual files.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Joelman on 2004-08-11 15:54:13
Thanks Otto--

Soundcheck has been problematic for me, making some songs far too loud and other soft. I think it might be because my collection spans many genres and some of the CDs are old and mastered lower.

As for foo_pod, I'm not familiar. What does it do and how does it work in layman's terms? Where do I get it? Sorry, as I said I'm not too savvy with any of this stuff.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: odious malefactor on 2004-08-11 16:23:17
Quote
As for foo_pod, I'm not familiar. What does it do and how does it work in layman's terms? Where do I get it?

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....howtopic=19156& (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19156&)

Edit:  Go to the end of the thread for the latest version.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Joelman on 2004-08-11 18:35:49
Quote
Of course, clearing the iTunes library and re-importing your music will mean the loss of Playcounts, Last Played time, and Rating information. You can use this little script I wrote to save/restore this information from/to iTunes: http://otto.homedns.org:8888/itunes/SaveRatings.zip (http://otto.homedns.org:8888/itunes/SaveRatings.zip)


Can I undo once I adjust  Db levels with MP3Gain, and can I import the modified files back to iTunes easily, just by using File>Import and selecting my entire "iTunes Music" file?

Also, is there anything I need to know to run your script?

(Thanks for the foo_pod link, odious malefactor. I'll check it out)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Otto42 on 2004-08-11 21:00:10
Quote
Can I undo once I adjust  Db levels with MP3Gain, and can I import the modified files back to iTunes easily, just by using File>Import and selecting my entire "iTunes Music" file?

Sure. Just import the whole thing.

Quote
Also, is there anything I need to know to run your script?

It's written in the form of an HTML-Application, so you'll need Windows. Just double click to run it. Have iTunes running when you start it up. Beyond that, it's fairly self-explanatory.

It keys off of Song name and Artist and Album, so don't change any of those tags in any of your music between your uses of the Save and Restore functionality, or it won't work.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Joelman on 2004-08-15 19:04:41
Ok, just to be sure ( I have lots of tunes and track info on my iPod and am nervous about wiping my iTunes library and reimporting):

Playcount, Ratings and Last Played Time will be lost, but restored by the script you showed me. How about stuff like EQ presets, Genre, and year? Will I lose those? Also, I use the "Grouping" field for key words and phrases that can be recognized for Smart Playlists, for example, "Cover Song" or "Single". Do they vanish as well when I clear and reimport my tunes after MP3gaining them?

On a side note, does ipod even use the EQ presets you specify in iTunes?

Thank you for your patience and expertise.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Otto42 on 2004-08-15 23:16:37
Quote
How about stuff like EQ presets, Genre, and year? Will I lose those?

EQPresets would be lost. You could modify that script I wrote to save/restore the EQPresets as well though. I don't use them, so I didn't add them to the thing.

Genre and Year are in the file tags, so they would be pulled back in when you import the tunes.

Quote
Also, I use the "Grouping" field for key words and phrases that can be recognized for Smart Playlists, for example, "Cover Song" or "Single". Do they vanish as well when I clear and reimport my tunes after MP3gaining them?

Yep, grouping would be lost. Again, it's pretty easy to modify that script to save/restore that as well. And again, I don't use them, so they are not saved. And Grouping based smart playlist also don't work properly on the iPod, so I don't use them. They work fine if you have the latest iPod firmware, but the Live Updating feature fails on any Grouping-based SmartPlaylist, if you have a 3G or later iPod. Confused yet?

Simpler version: If you have a newer iPod (3rd Gen and above), then the smart playlists can work in real time on the iPod itself. Meaning that if I have a playlist defined as "Last Played is not in the last 2 weeks", and then I play a song from that playlist all the way through, and then go back to the playlist again, the song will no longer be in that playlist. All without syncing to a computer. The iPod is smart enough to remove the song from the playlist after it's played. This comes in very handy for me. However, any Smart Playlist that has a rule using either "Grouping" or "Playlist" breaks this functionality. The smart playlist will not change until it's synced to a computer again. Not critical for most people, but it annoys me so I avoid using those types of rules in smart playlists.

Also, use of the Grouping field is unsafe, as it's probably going to change in the future. Apple seems to have intended the grouping field to define groups of songs that should be played together. Think of Queen's "We Will Rock You" and "We are the Champions".. These songs are nearly always combined. The purpose of the grouping field seems to be to be able to define several songs as part of a single group and thus always play them together, even in randomized playlists and such. This is not yet fully implemented, it seems, but some songs being downloaded from the iTunes Music Store, notably classical works, have had the Grouping fields filled in this fashion. At some future point, they may get this working on the iPod and suddenly you'll find that the songs with the same grouping always play together.

My advice is to use the Comments field for this sort of thing instead, and leave Grouping blank or use it as it seems to be intended, to group songs together.

Quote
On a side note, does ipod even use the EQ presets you specify in iTunes?

Yes and no. If you use the built in EQ Presets, like "Rock" and "Bass Booster" and so forth, then yes, they will transfer and be used on the iPod. For this to work, you need to have the iPod's EQ set to anything other than "Off". Setting it to "Flat" is the most common way to enable the EQ Presets to work.

If you have defined your own custom presets, then the data transfers, but the iPod does not currently use that data (I confirmed this myself through testing). So while it may work at some future point, it doesn't work currently. Everything the iPod needs to do it is there, it's just not doing it yet.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: westgroveg on 2004-08-16 00:28:46
This thread is always coming backup so here a few extra hints for usersI’m to busy to update this guide right now
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user on 2004-08-16 09:32:24
Quote
This thread is always coming backup so here a few extra hints for users
  • Album analyses  calculates track/album values so performing an album analyses is all you need to do.


  • MP3Gain now supports writing changes to ID3 tag so it is 100% lossless.


  • As of LAME 3.96 (track) replaygain values are automatically written to the lame tag,


  • Unlike MP3Gain, values stored in the lame tag need to be applied during playback which requires more CPU processing & the decoder to be aware.


  • Foobar can automatically scan & adjust replaygain values without any need for MP3Gain but of course some of us don’t like this audio player.
I’m to busy to update this guide right now
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=234667"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi westgroveg,
thanks for the brief summary of today's possibilities,
I think, I copy it with your permission to first post.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: westgroveg on 2004-08-16 11:15:50
Quote
Quote
This thread is always coming backup so here a few extra hints for users
  • Album analyses  calculates track/album values so performing an album analyses is all you need to do.







  • MP3Gain now supports writing changes to ID3 tag so it is 100% lossless.







  • As of LAME 3.96 (track) replaygain values are automatically written to the lame tag,







  • Unlike MP3Gain, values stored in the lame tag need to be applied during playback which requires more CPU processing & the decoder to be aware.







  • Foobar can automatically scan & adjust replaygain values without any need for MP3Gain but of course some of us don’t like this audio player.
I’m to busy to update this guide right now
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=234667"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi westgroveg,
thanks for the brief summary of today's possibilities,
I think, I copy it with your permission to first post.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=234743"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Of course user

One more thing, make sure you tag before using replaygain or instead of your replaygain values being hidden they appear in the comment field for some reason which can be annoying.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Joelman on 2004-08-17 14:15:38
Quote
Of course, clearing the iTunes library and re-importing your music will mean the loss of Playcounts, Last Played time, and Rating information. You can use this little script I wrote to save/restore this information from/to iTunes: http://otto.homedns.org:8888/itunes/SaveRatings.zip (http://otto.homedns.org:8888/itunes/SaveRatings.zip)

Quote
Yep, grouping would be lost. Again, it's pretty easy to modify that script to save/restore that as well.


I'm helpless at programming. Is it possible for you to provide the necessary changes to the script or some coaching on how to save the "grouping" field as well? After I do the gain adjustments and reimporting I'll take your advice and move all grouping info to comments. That sounds like a smart idea.

Any recommendations on how to best back up one's iTunes Library beforehand? I usually make a duplicate of the itunes library xml file for starters.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Otto42 on 2004-08-17 15:32:56
Quote
I'm helpless at programming. Is it possible for you to provide the necessary changes to the script or some coaching on how to save the "grouping" field as well? After I do the gain adjustments and reimporting I'll take your advice and move all grouping info to comments. That sounds like a smart idea.

Any recommendations on how to best back up one's iTunes Library beforehand? I usually make a duplicate of the itunes library xml file for starters.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=235051"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Backing up the XML file is fine. Assuming your file positions don't change, that's another way to reimport everything. And I think you wouldn't need my script if you did it that way.

Try this:
1. Rename the "iTunes something.ITL" file to something else.
2. Create a new "whatever that file is.ITL" but make it just a blank zero byte file. Just do "File->New->Text Document" and then rename the new text document to be the same name that the ITL file was.
3. Start iTunes.

What will happen is that iTunes will see that the ITL file is "corrupt" and it will reread the XML file to reimport everything. This gets all the data from that file and might be easier for you to deal with. It should preserve everything this way.

So as long as you don't move/rename your music, you can go that route instead of messing with scripts. Might be simpler if you can't do scripting. Although frankly, scripting is really, really easy. Seriously, open that file you got from me in a text editor. It's pretty obvious what to do. But if that's too hard, consider a different method like this XML trick.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Joelman on 2004-08-17 23:42:54
Thanks Otto42. Unfortunately it turns out a large number of my files are AAC. I had no idea. Anything to be done about that as an alternative to Foobar2000? Can Foobar use al of the info I have stored in iTunes, like playlists and all of the different fields we discussed?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: jth on 2004-08-17 23:58:16
Quote
  • MP3Gain now supports writing changes to ID3 tag so it is 100% lossless.

Maybe "completely reversible" is a better term than "100% lossless" which is slightly misleading in my opinion.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Joelman on 2004-09-23 13:52:31
Does anyone have a solution on how to fix the fluctuation of volume levels between songs on my ipod, which is packed with mostly AAC files (I originally imported in Mp3 until the new version of iTunes came out and was automatically set to AAC, which I'd never heard of so I didn't think to switch the import settings). I use iTunes for PC. It seems as though there are several MAC based solutions out there with mixed reviews.

Of course, the mp3gain solution discussed above is great for MP3, but no good for AAC, and apparently there's nothing like AACgain out there yet. Also, my understanding is that converting AAC to MP3 is a bad idea and will sound like hell.

I really have a small knowledge base here, so if anyone can help me out on this issue, I'd really appreciate it. This rollercoaster rof volume is driving me nuts! 

(Otto42 was extremely helpful when I thoght my files were all MP3, but then I went to do MP3gain on my iTunes folder and noticed that not nearly all of my tunes showed up! Thanks Otto42 for your patience!)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Otto42 on 2004-09-23 15:38:22
Joelman: The only suggestion I have left for you is stop using iTunes and switch to foobar 2000 with foo_pod for your iPod syncing needs. Use foobar to run the ReplayGain on all your files and then foo_pod will transfer that information to the iPod by converting it to the "soundcheck" parameter. So that you would turn on SoundCheck on the iPod and it would use the ReplayGain info from foobar instead. Both of these basically do the same thing, the main difference between them is the method by which they determine the "average" song volume.

There is no perfect volume levelling, and if iTunes' SoundCheck doesn't work for you, it's not likely that ReplayGain methods will either. They're better, but not all that much better. It's not a night and day type of difference, sort of thing.

Furthermore, SoundCheck will likely work better than MP3Gain or the theoretical AACGain for the simple reason that both of these program can only adjust the volume level in 1.5dB increments, while SoundCheck can adjust it much finer and more exactly. foobar/foo_pod would do the same sort of thing, with a far more exact volume adjustment.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: westgroveg on 2005-01-24 04:43:13
Quote
Quote
  • MP3Gain now supports writing changes to ID3 tag so it is 100% lossless.

Maybe "completely reversible" is a better term than "100% lossless" which is slightly misleading in my opinion.
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=235196"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well if you create a copy of an mp3 file, apply MP3Gain to the copy, then restore the gain values & compare the original file with the modified file they will be bit exact so yes the MP3Gain process is 100% lossless.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: esa372 on 2005-01-24 15:53:25
I've got a (noob) question about the MP3Gain values...

If I use MP3Gain on a track (for example, Fiona Apple's A Mistake, from "When The Pawn..."), Foobar reports the Track Gain as "-0.030000" and the Album Gain as "-0.460000".

On the other hand, if I use ReplayGain on the same album/track, Foobar reports the Track Gain as "-6.10" and the Album Gain as "-6.45", yet both tracks yield the same volume level.

 

How can the numbers be so different and yet produce the same results?

Thanks in advance,

~esa
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: kindofblue on 2005-02-15 06:44:55
I have a couple of noob questions too.

1.  How do you apply the maximum no clip gain via commandline?
2.  How do you set the target gain at 92dB (instead of the default 89dB) via the commandline?

Appreciate any help. Thanks in advance.   

kindofblue

edit: minor edits for clarity
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: RocknRoland on 2005-06-26 02:18:12
Hi

I have been a user of mp3gain for a while but I know I haven't been using it to it's fullest potential.

I ran across this thread (the only one I have seen yet that gave any detailed instructions) and began reading to try to eliminate clips etc. The problem is there are instructions that doesn't pertain to the version I am using 1.2.5 (recently upgraded from 1.2.4) such as "radio analysis". I only have seen "album" and "track" on any versions I have used.

I had previously thought that some of my files that had a reading of "Y" under the clip(track) column could not be corrected. But since reading the earlier posts to this thread I now think differently.

Any guidance for eliminating clipping as mentioned before with the newer versions would be greatly appreciated.

A little background:

99.9% of my files are tracks that I have chosen (personal choice for "best ofs")
I always use the "apply track gain" @ a target level of 92 dB
Other than that it is at it's default settings.

TIA
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: mazzie on 2005-11-06 02:20:52
I am TRYING to get myself a copy of MP3 Gain and have tried downloading it 5 times now. I am unable to find it on my computer after download....where am I going wrong as even the computer can't find it.
I desperately need a program to ensure all my Iriver MP3's play at the same sound level as I'm fed up of having to adjust the volume all the time.
I'm running Win XP and use both iriver and Windows media player.
I've compiled a large selection of music from various sources and need to have them at the same general volume.....
Can someone please help....?????
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Squeller on 2005-11-06 10:55:01
Quote
I am TRYING to get myself a copy of MP3 Gain and have tried downloading it 5 times now. I am unable to find it on my computer after download....where am I going wrong as even the computer can't find it.

You're pretty offtopic here if you don't know how your browser/os/computer works. You have alternatives like firefox, opera, wget, ....
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: bleedlikeme on 2005-11-12 02:36:09
Can somebody help me! I have no idea how to use this program but I want to normalize Pablo Honey and make it sound better. The guide is a bit outdated it is not?
I have version 1.2.5
Is there a how to use mp3gain for dummys guide around?
Thanks
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: AnEnigma66 on 2005-11-12 05:09:39
It's a simple program, why don't you just read the help file?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: clintb on 2005-11-12 05:43:58
Quote
I've got a (noob) question about the MP3Gain values...

If I use MP3Gain on a track (for example, Fiona Apple's A Mistake, from "When The Pawn..."), Foobar reports the Track Gain as "-0.030000" and the Album Gain as "-0.460000".

On the other hand, if I use ReplayGain on the same album/track, Foobar reports the Track Gain as "-6.10" and the Album Gain as "-6.45", yet both tracks yield the same volume level.

 

How can the numbers be so different and yet produce the same results?

Thanks in advance,

~esa
[a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=267698"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't have a definitive answer, but I *think* mp3gain has a limitiation of 1.5db increments and ReplayGain doesn't.  I'm not sure if that would cause such a large gap in numbers.  Thinking about it though, are the two using differnent scales of sorts?  Percentage vs. decibel change, perhaps?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: DreamTactix291 on 2005-11-12 05:59:34
MP3Gain modifies the global gain field in each mp3 frame header so that's why it's limited to 1.5dB steps.  Replaygain (in tag form) however just tells the Replaygain-aware decoder to attenuate the volume by that value.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: soundstory on 2006-04-04 17:59:26
Hey everybody

I've all ways had the target vol set at 89, when i do an album analysis it shows anything over 89 as clipping

How is this possible when i'm reducing the volume?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Gilgamesh577 on 2006-07-09 21:33:38
@ AreteOne:  I'd like to add that when you normalize in step 3, or whenever you normalize a WAV for that matter, you lose data.  It has to actually rescale the data, its like changing the resolution of a digital image in say Photoshop.  There are roundoff errors.  You should only normalize a file that is already MP3, where it can be lossless.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Alex B on 2006-07-09 23:52:01
If I use MP3Gain on a track (for example, Fiona Apple's A Mistake, from "When The Pawn..."), Foobar reports the Track Gain as "-0.030000" and the Album Gain as "-0.460000".

On the other hand, if I use ReplayGain on the same album/track, Foobar reports the Track Gain as "-6.10" and the Album Gain as "-6.45", yet both tracks yield the same volume level.

 

How can the numbers be so different and yet produce the same results?

I assume you used the default 89 dB target value in MP3Gain, correct?

If so, I think you are experiencing this:

MP3Gain fixed the file volume. It adjusted the volume -6 dB (four -1.5 dB steps) and wrote the new replay gain values to the file tags. These new tags are valid for the already changed file. A player can use the remaining very small correction value for making a precise final adjustment.

When you use only the Replay Gain analyzer foobar reports correctly different values because the measured file is the original unadjusted file.

Edit: The remaining negligible differences (0.07 & 0.01 dB) are caused by a bit different decoders or analyzers.

Edit again: Damn, I really didn't notice that Esa372's question was 18 months old. However, perhaps this answer is useful for someone.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: KarnEvil9 on 2006-07-10 00:09:49
On some albums I've used MP3Gain on, many of the tracks still show clipping after it's done.  Is there a way to prevent that while still using Album Gain?  I guess I could lower the target volume (I'm using the default), but is there something automatic, such as the Don't clip when doing Track Gain setting?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Gilgamesh577 on 2006-07-11 17:57:23
Oh nice.  Noone told me Mp3gain was going to modify all my MP3's whether I asked it to or not, just by doing track analysis.  What a piece of crap.  It changed all the modified dates, that alone is a disaster.  I wanted to know how old each of my mp3's was.

Anyway, instead of that POS, I would now recommend MP3TrimPro, which can do about the same things but is more professional, as the name suggests.  It doesn't alter any files at all until you tell it to.  And it does work in batch mode, so you don't lose that feature.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: arpeggio on 2006-07-11 18:20:02
Oh nice.  Noone told me Mp3gain was going to modify all my MP3's whether I asked it to or not, just by doing track analysis.  What a piece of crap.  It changed all the modified dates, that alone is a disaster.  I wanted to know how old each of my mp3's was.

This is not true. You'd better read the 114 posts before yours to learn exactly how Mp3Gain works.

As to the audio data, the actual audio data is not modified at all. The only thing that will be adjusted is the gain of the mp3 files so that they all have the same loudness without any quality loss.
The great advantage of this tool is that after the analysis it will store the adjustment in a tag within the file, so it can be brought back to the original level. The process is lossless, or better said reversible.

If you don't want Mp3Gain to change the file dates you should check the option "Preserve file date/time" in the Options menu.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: arpeggio on 2006-07-11 19:13:46
.... but is there something automatic, such as the Don't clip when doing Track Gain setting?

Yes, there is. Checking the "Don't clip when doing Track Gain" option from the Options menu will work in Album Gain mode too.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: KarnEvil9 on 2006-07-11 20:14:47

.... but is there something automatic, such as the Don't clip when doing Track Gain setting?

Yes, there is. Checking the "Don't clip when doing Track Gain" option from the Options menu will work in Album Gain mode too.

It doesn't here.  I've long had that checked, and still get some albums in which some if not most of the tracks show clipping after processing.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: arpeggio on 2006-07-11 20:34:44
It doesn't here.  I've long had that checked, and still get some albums in which some if not most of the tracks show clipping after processing.

Well maybe you might try the "Apply max no-clip gain for Album" option from the Modify Gain menu.

edit: You might find it informative to add a field called "Max Noclip Gain" to the Filelist window. Check the "Enable Maximizing Features" option from the Options / Advanced menu (you can disregard the warning message). This field will show the 'headroom' of the actual volume of each track before clipping or the how much it exceeds the level of clipping.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: zipr on 2006-07-11 21:19:12
Does anyone know if there's any way to know how much clipping there is in a file?  I wonder how many of my mp3 files I've lowered in volume because of a tiny amount of clipping.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: arpeggio on 2006-07-11 21:38:17
Does anyone know if there's any way to know how much clipping there is in a file?

Have a look at the edit in my previous post. Enable the "Max Noclip Gain" field in Mp3Gain filelist window. If a track is clipping this field will show a negative number. This represents the amount of clipping. The "clipping" field will also show "Y".
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: haregoo on 2006-07-11 21:42:35
@KarnEvil9
Clipping was minimized by Album Gain(89.0db).
I recommend foobar 2000 replaygain scan after Album Gain to avoid slight clipping.

@zipr
Check the peak value of replaygain info if you use foobar2000 replaygain scanner.
If the value is greater than 1.000000, the mp3 is clipping.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: FormerlyDFox on 2008-11-22 04:06:48
What about in MP3Gain 1.25, and you have a Y under Clipping and (Clip)Track, anyway to get rid of the Y for clipping, so that you no longer see it, and know that there is no longer any clipping?

THANKS

P.S. My bad I just lowered the target volume...

One other question all you do is just type in the Target Volume you want and it changes it after you type it, you don't need to run Track Analysis, or Track Gain? Because in 1.25 it seems like that's all I have to do...

It's odd the Help says to run the Track Analysis, or Track Gain after you've set the target volume, but when I do nothing happens with it, hmm strange, all I do is just change the volume and it works, hehe...

Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: twostar on 2009-09-25 06:47:43
Hi everyone. Sorry to resurrect an old thread. Just a few quick questions.
1. Where is the Options\Each Folder Is Album in the latest version?
2. Is Options\Advanced\Enable Maximising Features still recommended? There's warning message not to enable it.
3. Are steps 7 and 8 still necessary with the latest version?
4. Should I just follow the help file? It recommends to leave the defaults and just steps 4, 5 and 6.

MP3-CD album-based MP3Gain adjustment for newbies

written by Shadow RD
« on: January 30, 2002, 03:44:40 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made this list up for myself (yeah I'm a bit lame!) and I thought it may lessen questions to Snelg and help others in the process if I posted it:

------------------------------------------------------------
How To Perform Optimised Album-based MP3 Gain Adjustment For Multiple Albums of MP3s for putting onto MP3-CDs
------------------------------------------------------------


(1) Put MP3 files in sub-folders sorted by album

(2) Open MP3 Gain, adjust:
  Options\Each Folder Is Album (tick)
  Options\Add Subfolders (tick)
  Options\Show Path\File (tick)
  Options\Advanced\Performance (tick both boxes)
  Options\Advanced\Enable Maximising Features (tick)

(3) Set Target "Normal" Volume to 89 dB (if not already) 
  - Using 89 dB for the target volume will probably ensure
    that no clipping will happen even for older albums
    with greater dynamic range
  - if clipping does occur with 89 dB you will have to reduce
    the value
 
(4) File\Add Folder - choose folder containing all the album
  subfolders

(5) Analysis\Album Analysis - does MP3 Gain Analysis album
  by album

(6) Modify Gain\Album Gain - normalizes the MP3 Gain of all
  albums relative to each other and as close as possible
  to 89 dB

(7) Order files by Max Noclip Gain column (first do Radio
  Analysis if Replay Gain information is not there
  anymore) and note smallest value in the column

(8) Modify Gain\Apply Constant Gain - select value noted in
    (7) to increase files gain by (if this is 0.0 then do
    not adjust volume)

------------------------------------------------------------
This should ensure that the MP3s of each album are of comparable loudness and that the overall volume level is optimised.

------------------------------------------------------------

Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: а.п.т. on 2009-09-25 10:32:06
Hi everyone. Sorry to resurrect an old thread. Just a few quick questions.
1. Where is the Options\Each Folder Is Album in the latest version?
2. Is Options\Advanced\Enable Maximising Features still recommended? There's warning message not to enable it.
3. Are steps 7 and 8 still necessary with the latest version?
4. Should I just follow the help file? It recommends to leave the defaults and just steps 4, 5 and 6.


HI,

1 - It is on by default (or at least it works for me in this way)
2 - No, it's never been recommended, unless you want to prepare the album for burning on a CD
3 - No, because it (increasing of volume) compromise the RG idea. However, you can optionally tick "Options\Don't clip when doing Track Gain" in order to avoid clipping when you apply RG in Track mode (for example Various Artists albums, compilations etc.)
4 - Yes, I would recommend that.

BTW, in order to avoid accidental processing, you can activate "Options\Work on Selected files only" and then, between step 4 and 5 choose either "File\Select All Files" or manually select just desired albums (tracks).
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: karenchu on 2011-07-02 10:46:22
sorry for bumping but still, can anyone show me the path to "Each Folder Is Album" option?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Typhoon859 on 2011-10-06 07:56:32
Whether it's with MP3Gain or by scanning first through something else, how can I apply Album Gain by tags (not folder) the way there is an option for in Foobar2000 for instance?  Help would REALLY be appreciated.  Thanks.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Typhoon859 on 2011-10-06 09:00:49
Whether it's with MP3Gain or by scanning first through something else, how can I apply Album Gain by tags (not folder) the way there is an option for in Foobar2000 for instance?  Help would REALLY be appreciated.  Thanks.

Nevermind, I figured it out. 

After using Foobar2000 to apply ReplayGain, I right-click all the selected MP3 files, go to "Tagging", "MP3 Tag Types", and select APE to be enabled.  Then MP3Gain reads the data from there.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Typhoon859 on 2012-08-01 21:44:39
sorry for bumping but still, can anyone show me the path to "Each Folder Is Album" option?


That.

Does the newest version not have that function any more?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: thebearnecessities on 2012-12-20 15:58:30
brand new user, total noob.

I noticed a couple of my mp3's sounded too quiet, so i want to get them all sounding the same.

can i install mp3gain, set the option "dont clip", add the my music folder, and click on album gain?

and that's it?  will that make all my mp3's sound more at the same volume level?

edit:  for people asking about "each album is folder" option, i read further back in tyhis thread that that option is not longer in the software and it allows you to simply add your top level folder eg "my music" and each subfolder is treated like an individual album.

i did notice an "add subfolders" option so might be worth making sure that is ticked.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: greynol on 2012-12-20 16:58:51
I noticed a couple of my mp3's sounded too quiet, so i want to get them all sounding the same.

It really depends on what genre and its respective mastering, but in general loud tracks are adjusted downward.  If it turns out that you listen to genres where tracks typically get adjusted upward, you may want to consider lowering the reference level.  This is more likely to be the case if you listen to classical music and some forms of jazz where the reference level of 89dB doesn't provide enough headroom for dynamic parts.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: thebearnecessities on 2012-12-20 17:49:22
thanks geynol for taking the time to post.

I'm a bit confused by all this and cant get my head round it.  is the principle that each mp3 has a vlume setting within it and the mp3gain software tries t make them all about the same?

I mostly have rock, pop, indie, blue in my collection of about 300 albums.

I just noticed that one of the bon jovi tracks was very quiet so i decided to put my entire collection through the software so stop me having to do it every time i notice a track is a bit quiet.

so now it seems that i am likely to find all my music is a bit quieter?

the software is just over halfway though but i think its still doing album analysis so maybe i should just cancel?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: greynol on 2012-12-20 18:18:46
I'd let it finish.  From what you've said I don't think you're going to run into any problems.

Since you've also instructed the program not to allow clipping you won't need to worry about your chosen reference level except that some albums might still be louder than quiet ones which were not made louder because doing so would result in clipping.  The higher you set the reference level, the more likely this is to happen.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2012-12-20 20:37:19
Quote
so now it seems that i am likely to find all my music is a bit quieter?
Right!  Much of your loud music (maybe most of your music) will be somewhat quieter...  Hopefully, you can get enough volume from the analog-side of things. 

Let's say you have a quiet song and a loud song.  The quiet song might have a few peaks near 0dBFS* (basically the "digital maximum"), but these short-duration peaks don't make it sound loud.

Now, if you want to adjust the loud & quiet songs for the same loudness, you can't increase the quiet song without clipping/distortion.  So, you have to decrease the loud-sounding song.

MP3gain isn't trying to match all of your files to each other (or you'd have to re-scan everything every time you added a song).  It's trying to match a target dB level.    A higher target gain will make your songs louder, but it doesn't give MP3gain much "room to work", and many of your tracks won't be changed unless you allow clipping.



* Just to keep things confusing...  0 dBFS uses is a different reference than the +89dB SPL used for MP3gain.    But they are related, and for example a +3dB change in the digital file is also a +3dB increase in sound level (SPL), etc.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: greynol on 2012-12-20 20:42:59
A higher target gain will make your songs louder, but it doesn't give MP3gain much "room to work", and many of your tracks won't be changed unless you allow clipping.

I'm pretty sure they are still changed, but just up to the point before clipping will occur.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: user512Harry on 2014-03-28 13:41:18
New User here, but not totally out of it.
I am really not wanting to lose my marbles on this, but it seems that "Clipping" the music adds noise, or does it remove part of the sound at the clipping points in the song that gets clipped? If that is what happens, then wouldn't it be better to analyze the tracks, then normalize those tracks the do NOT get clipped at your chosen db level, not allowing those that get clipped to be normalized(sort out the non clipped) then reduce or raise the db and then only normalizing the songs that don't get clipped again?
Although that seems to be more work, I would rather have the songs closer to a steady volume that to have the music clipped or distorted. I hate music I love to be damaged by bad ripping or poor sound control.
Just asking for some information. I know this hasn't been looked at now in almost 2 years.
Harry
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: lithopsian on 2014-03-28 14:17:05
Clipping simply truncates the volume at any point where it exceeds a digital threshold (you can think of it as 1, or 100%).  That truncation distorts the sound so you can consider it as noise if you like.  It isn't pleasant to hear in any case.

However, the amount of clipping that occurs could be anything from a single sample (a few microseconds) of sound to every drum beat.  In the first case, you simply won't be able to detect it.  The second case you will want to reduce the volume of the whole track to get rid of 99% of the clipping.  Removing 100% of clipping is unnecessary, although in practice, removing 99% of it means removing 100% of it.

You could attempt to find a reference level that allows all your tracks to be played without clipping, then find a gain that brings all tracks to that level.  The more common approach of picking a level, applying the gain, then adjusting clipping tracks afterwards is more common, but it does mean that those tracks that would have clipped are then played more quietly than the level you picked.  However, given the preamp gains that could be applied before the music is tested for clipping, this is the only practical solution.  If you want to go at it the other way, just bear in mind that it will all break if you apply a preamp.  Also, adding a single new track to your ripped collection could break everything by exceeding the threshold you picked.

A practical solution in almost every case is to apply a gain to normalise all your tracks (or albums) and not to adjust for clipping.  Usually it will be OK and you won't be able to detect anything audible from the tiny amount of clipping that occurs.  Only if clipping becomes an audible issue will you need to go further.  Simply allowing adjusting of clipped tracks may be sufficient to avoid the clipping without causing too much volume change.  Only in extreme situations should you need to go further.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: Dewey on 2014-07-31 19:28:54
Is it actually necessary to do this with modern digital audio tracks and newer iPods?

I ask because many years ago I had an MP3 disc player. I experienced lots of clipping so I used MP3gain to tune all my tracks down to 89db. But since then (well, like 10 years ago) I got an iPod classic (4th gen) and I have also ripped tracks from CDs or downloaded them from iTunes (etc) and it seems that when I convert them to MP3 the vast majority of tracks are >94db and MP3gain shows them in red (meaning they will be clipped). But are they really?

So all my MP3 tracks are <=89db and when I play through the Aux jack in my car I have to crank volume to max and still they are not very loud. The volume limit on my iPod is set at about 85% but I don't see that this would matter using the docking port instead of the earphone jack.

So, readers' digest version: is it really still advisable to reduce all MP3s to 89db to avoid clipping? Or can I just go with whatever db comes out of ripping tracks with iTunes?

Thanks,
Dewey


MP3-CD album-based MP3Gain adjustment for newbies

written by Shadow RD
« on: January 30, 2002, 03:44:40 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made this list up for myself (yeah I'm a bit lame!) and I thought it may lessen questions to Snelg and help others in the process if I posted it:

------------------------------------------------------------
How To Perform Optimised Album-based MP3 Gain Adjustment For Multiple Albums of MP3s for putting onto MP3-CDs
------------------------------------------------------------


(1) Put MP3 files in sub-folders sorted by album

(2) Open MP3 Gain, adjust:
  Options\Each Folder Is Album (tick)
  Options\Add Subfolders (tick)
  Options\Show Path\File (tick)
  Options\Advanced\Performance (tick both boxes)
  Options\Advanced\Enable Maximising Features (tick)

(3) Set Target "Normal" Volume to 89 dB (if not already) 
  - Using 89 dB for the target volume will probably ensure
    that no clipping will happen even for older albums
    with greater dynamic range
  - if clipping does occur with 89 dB you will have to reduce
    the value
 
(4) File\Add Folder - choose folder containing all the album
  subfolders

(5) Analysis\Album Analysis - does MP3 Gain Analysis album
  by album

(6) Modify Gain\Album Gain - normalizes the MP3 Gain of all
  albums relative to each other and as close as possible
  to 89 dB

(7) Order files by Max Noclip Gain column (first do Radio
  Analysis if Replay Gain information is not there
  anymore) and note smallest value in the column

(8) Modify Gain\Apply Constant Gain - select value noted in
    (7) to increase files gain by (if this is 0.0 then do
    not adjust volume)

------------------------------------------------------------
This should ensure that the MP3s of each album are of comparable loudness and that the overall volume level is optimised.

------------------------------------------------------------

Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: DVDdoug on 2014-07-31 21:29:40
Quote
I convert them to MP3 the vast majority of tracks are >94db and MP3gain shows them in red (meaning they will be clipped). But are they really?
Maybe...  The MP3 itself may not be clipped.    First, we need to switch our thinking from the acoustic domain where 0dBSPL is the threshold of human hearing and decibels are positive, to the digital domain where 0dBFS is the "digital Maximum" and decibels are mostly negative numbers (or zero).

The 89 or 94dB acoustic loudness reference isn't really calibrated since it depends on your volume control, and it's related to the average level and frequency content.  Clipping is caused by the peaks which correlate very poorly with loudness. 

You can have a quiet-sounding file with big peaks.  If you try to boost that quiet-sounding file to match your louder music, it will clip.    Since many of the quiet-sounding files can't be boosted (without clipping) the only way to match volumes is by reducing the loud files.      

CDs, 16-bit and 24-bit WAV files, analog-to-digital converters (ADCs), and digital-to-analog converters (DACs) are all limited to 0dBFS.  If you try to go over 0dB you'll get clipping.   

Here's the tricky part... Mp3 is NOT limited to 0dB, so it can go over 0dB without clipping.    But if you decode the MP3 and send the data directly to your DAC, your DAC will clip.  I don't know if the iPod's volume is digital (before the DAC) or analog (after the DAC).   

If it's a digital volume control, you can listen to an MP3 that goes over 0dB without clipping if you lower the volume.    But, the amount you'd have to lower the volume is unknown because it depends on the peaks in the particular file (usually unknown), and the volume control isn't labeled in dB anyway. 

Quote
So, readers' digest version: is it really still advisable to reduce all MP3s to 89db to avoid clipping?
Yes.  you need to give MP3Gain "room to work" if you don't want clipping.  I think by default MP3Gain is set to "Not Clip".    If you try to to to 94dB without allowing clipping, MP3Gain won't do anything to maybe half of your files because they are already normalized (maximized) and they can't be increased at all without clipping. 

Quote
Or can I just go with whatever db comes out of ripping tracks with iTunes?
Of course!  But, you won't have the volume-matching you get with MP3Gain.

With iTunes and iPod, you can also use Sound Check, which is Apple's version of ReplayGain.  (There are no settings/options for Sound Check and I don't know how the loudness of Sound Check compares with the 89dB default setting for  ReplayGain/MP3Gain.)

Quote
(3) Set Target "Normal" Volume to 89 dB (if not already)
- Using 89 dB for the target volume will probably ensure
that no clipping will happen even for older albums
with greater dynamic range
- if clipping does occur with 89 dB you will have to reduce
the value
Like I said, with the default settings MP3Gain shouldn't clip.  So, on a few albums/tracks where 89dB can't be reached without clipping, the target-volume won't be reached and these tracks will play quieter than 89dB.  (There's no need to reduce the volume below 89dB unless you need to better-match ALL of your tracks, and then you'll have to change ALL of your tracks the the same volume below 89dB.)
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: MrBruce on 2014-08-19 23:34:09
Hello, I have MP3Gain version 1.2.5.

I run an MP3 based music library for FM Radio Broadcasting.

Although there are much better music formats used for FM Broadcasting, I use MP3s because the tags are helpful for our DJs to know not only what song is currently playing but also the automated software shows the artist's name as well.

We do not get the same results with .Wave or other lossless audio files.

Our Genre consists of several types of music, including Classic Rock, Rock, R&B, Country, Techno and censored Rap music.

We are using an Behringer Brand Named, Ultra-Dyne Pro Digital 24-Bit Dual DSP Mainframe Model# DSP9024 6 Band Audio Processor just before our transmitter input.

Our MP3 collection came from LP Vinyl records, CDs and Cassette tapes as well as open source music websites where free MP3s are offered by bands looking for public recognition.

The biggest problems we face is playing music that falls under R&B and Techno. The music interferes with our stereo pilot signal and causes pumping effects and distortion to our FM carrier.

Such songs are "Clarity' by Zedd featuring Foxes, "Get Outta Of My Way (Bimbo Radio Edit)" by Kylie Minogue, "Summer" by Calvin Harris are a few examples of songs that tear up our FM signal.

We have used MP3Gain and tried to bring our music library to some what of a livable level.

We used the default level of 89.0, added the folder containing MP3s through the ADD FOLDER button.

Clicked the TRACK GAIN button and allowed it to do its job to our entire library.

The result was we had to increase the volume controls for the Rock and Classic Rock music, because their volume was reduced, however the R&B and Rap songs (Specially the ones listed above) are again pumping, distorting and causing issues with our FM stereo Pilot signal. (The FM STEREO light blinking.)

I can check the wave form and I can clearly see the wave form and its peaks have been greatly reduced by MP3Gain, however, the loudness is still there, which is something that confuses me. When I say loudness, I mean the music sounds like the volume setting is 160%!

I was under the impression that MP3Gain is supposed to make all the music sound at the SAME VOLUME LEVEL from song to song. This is NOT the case!

"Clarity' by Zedd featuring Foxes, "Get Outta Of My Way (Bimbo Radio Edit)" by Kylie Minogue, "Summer" by Calvin Harris are 170% over the 89.0 even though the wave form shows that the song's +/- peaks have been reduced. I used Adobe Audition 3.0 to view the wave form and it shows it was reduced, so I am a bit confused as to why the song is still over modulated.

I am assuming it is the low frequencies that causes the pumping as those songs have high levels of BASS.

Any thoughts on this?

Lastly, I realize this topic is about Glen's Mp3gain software, but has anyone heard of MP3Gain Pro? Link: http://mp3gain-pro.com/ (http://mp3gain-pro.com/)

I am curious if the MP3Gain Pro software is better and has anyone used it with positive results?

Bruce.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: zipr on 2014-08-20 01:09:08
Just a stab in the dark, but do the dramatic changes in volume occur if you play the mp3s on other equipment?
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: MrBruce on 2014-08-20 05:38:12
Just a stab in the dark, but do the dramatic changes in volume occur if you play the mp3s on other equipment?

If you are referring to me, we only play our MP3s on a Windows based computer which is connected to a mixer board and then our Behringer Ultra-Dyne Processor then the transmitter.

The automated software we're using is ZaraRadio.

When you say other equipment, what do you suggest we try?

Bruce.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: saratoga on 2014-08-20 06:55:37
I can check the wave form and I can clearly see the wave form and its peaks have been greatly reduced by MP3Gain, however, the loudness is still there, which is something that confuses me. When I say loudness, I mean the music sounds like the volume setting is 160%!


I don't understand what you're asking.  Replaygain reduces (or increases) gain in files so that they have similar perceptual loudness.  As you have observed, this usually results in a gain reduction.  What were you expecting to happen? 

Lastly, I realize this topic is about Glen's Mp3gain software, but has anyone heard of MP3Gain Pro? Link: http://mp3gain-pro.com/ (http://mp3gain-pro.com/)


I think its some scammer trying to profit off of the mp3gain name. 
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: MrBruce on 2014-08-20 22:37:26
I don't understand what you're asking.  Replaygain reduces (or increases) gain in files so that they have similar perceptual loudness.  As you have observed, this usually results in a gain reduction.  What were you expecting to happen?


I am asking if MP3Gain is supposed to reduce the loudness of all MP3s why are the songs listed above still louder then the rest of our library.

You mentioned ReplayGain, we do not use ReplayGain software, only MP3Gain (TO Reduce) and ZaraRadio (To Play the songs).

Visually looking at the wave form in Adobe Audition before any reduction is done, those songs are so peak out that the track's Left/Right peaks are a solid wave form, the peaks top out and flat top on both the + and - peaks.

When we use MP3Gain at default 89.0, all the songs look the same visually in Adobe Audition, however, Those songs still play and sound like MP3Gain made them Louder than the rest. When those songs play, we have to turn the volume down on our Mixer board because those songs are over driving our transmitter.

Since our station is automated, this presents a problem, the problem is that most of the time no one is present to reduce the volume when the software chooses to play one of those songs.

Now, I only used three examples above, we have other new releases that present the same problem, over saturating our audio chain, while most play quite well.

I suppose, that without visual (Pictures) and audio samples included in this thread, it makes it difficult for any one to understand my concerns and my question.

Bruce.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: saratoga on 2014-08-21 00:22:51
You mentioned ReplayGain, we do not use ReplayGain software, only MP3Gain (TO Reduce) and ZaraRadio (To Play the songs).


MP3gain is a program that implements replaygain.

Visually looking at the wave form in Adobe Audition before any reduction is done, those songs are so peak out that the track's Left/Right peaks are a solid wave form, the peaks top out and flat top on both the + and - peaks.

When we use MP3Gain at default 89.0, all the songs look the same visually in Adobe Audition, however,


You mean running them through MP3gain doesn't change the gain?  If so, I would double check that you have used it correctly.  I thought you meant above that you saw a gain reduction.  If a file has a gain correction of -3dB applied, you should in fact see that it has had its gain reduced by 3dB.  If not, then probably something has gone wrong. 
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: MrBruce on 2014-08-21 01:47:54
It does reduce the visual wave form, but not the amplitude of the sound.

I suppose I'll have to find a image hosting site and create an account to upload images of the before and after effects displayed by Adobe Audition. I also use a lesser known "Sound Editor" that is part of Roxio's "Easy VHS To DVD" software, it has sound capture abilities via a USB Dongle device for transferring VHS video tape and LP records.

It has the ability, just like Adobe Audition of displaying the wave form of the digital Left and Right stereo channels of a given sound file.

It shows the amplitude of the left and Right audio tracks.

Although MP3Gain reduced the amplitude, the tracks are still louder than other files in the same library.

Visually, yes I see a difference, but during play back, the songs are NOT the same level as the others on the speaker output.

Here is how I do MP3Gain.

I start the program, I click the ADD FOLDER button.

It opens a BROWSE FOR FOLDER window.

I choose C:\ MUSIC

It displays every MP3 in that folder.

It also shows both VOLUME and TRACK GAIN for each MP3 file.

The TARGET "NORMAL" VOLUME is default at 89.0 dB.

Next, we click the TRACK ANALYSIS button. (Do Replay Gain analysis on files)

The program goes down the list of MP3s and adds a red Y under the CLIPPING tab and also displays the TRACK GAIN under that tab.

When MP3GAin is done, we click the TRACK GAIN button and it starts going down the list again and removing the red Y and showing 0.0 in the TRACK GAIN column.

Now under ADVANCED OPTIONS, this is set to IDLE and the ENABLE "MAXIMIZING" FEATURES is unchecked.

Nothing under Performance is checked off in ADVANCED OPTIONS.

When it is done, there are a few files that still show a RED Y under the CLIPPING tab, but those are not the songs in question.

The VOLUME tab next to Path/File shows each MP3 close to 89.0 some might be 90.0 or 88.9 dB but they are close to 89.0dB.

During play back, all the songs are not the same in loudness, specially newer music from the last 3 years. It appears the loudness wars on CD based music is possibly part of the issue. BASS being pumped by audio compression techniques might be part of the problem, so take that into possible consideration.

I really hate to have to edit every song individually just to reduce the BASS (LOW FREQUENCIES) or the HIGH FREQUENCIES as anything pumping above 12KHz is going to pump the 16 KHZ pilot frequency needed for FM stereo decoding in an FM radio receiver. This causes the stereo pilot light to blink with each extreme amplitude boost from the HIGHS or LOWS of a sound file.

We are trying to avoid that as that causes signal splatter and spurs to other FM frequencies above and below our frequency. It also makes our music sound like noise, Noise that is not listenable for any length of time.

Distortion is what we are trying to avoid. Would you listen to any music if it is distorted? We can adjust our processing equipment to compensate one extreme or the other, but when the songs are louder than another or softer, we end up with either a condition of some songs being TOO QUIET or to make those sound okay, we end up with other songs being TOO LOUD.

We can not seem to get any 100 different songs to sound the same in volume intensity even using MP3Gain.

Okay, above I told you how we have MP3Gain set up to make all the files sound the same and how we are applying the effects. Are we using the correct options for an entire folder?

Bruce.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: saratoga on 2014-08-21 02:32:34
It does reduce the visual wave form, but not the amplitude of the sound.


Two possibilities:

1)  Something in your hardware is raising the volume after decoding the file to compensate.
2)  You've made a mistake.

You'll have to decide which is the case.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: MrBruce on 2014-08-21 03:42:02
2)  You've made a mistake.

You'll have to decide which is the case.


Not sure what you mean by mistake. Can you be a bit more specific?

Bruce.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: saratoga on 2014-08-21 04:33:28
Mistake meaning that the quoted text above is not so. Either the amplitude didn't change or the volume did change.
Title: How To Use Mp3 Gain ?
Post by: MrBruce on 2014-08-21 06:14:28
I realize presenting a copy of the content in question is the best option, however, since the material is not rightfully ours, any hosting of such contents, puts me at risk of Copy Right infringement and suspension of any hosting rights I may chose to host the music files in question. Even if I provide a snippet of it, the publishers and record labels have a right to complain and hold me responsible for breaking a federal law.
Without prior written permission, I can not share what legally is not mine to share. If see you are more into rock music, there are ways on the web to download a copy of "summer" by Calvin Harris. Download it if you can find a copy that the RIAA has not yet flagged and removed from MP3 sharing sites. Play the song and observe the BASS level of the unedited version without any reduction applied. Your BASS speakers will vibrate your entire house if the volume is loud enough. Same as that guy whose car stereo vibrates your house as he's driving down the street with his BASS boosters/cannons vibrating his car. Today, R&B (Jams) and Electronica are recorded with very low frequency sometimes well below 30Hz into the 20Hz zone. Rock music is recorded more in the mid range zone of 1KHz.

My point is, R&B music is recorded to sound loud. Listen to a radio station playing R&B, R&B today is also called JAMS, like MTV JAMS channel on cable TV. The music today contains a lot of BASS. Bass at that level can tear up a woofer if it is poorly designed.

That is what we were trying to control.

Bruce.