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Topic: What Should I Replace First? (Read 11085 times) previous topic - next topic
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What Should I Replace First?

Reply #25 –
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We used to hook speakers up out of phase and then listen to them comment on the "precise stereo imaging" of the system.

Aaah !
So it was on purpose !
I wondered why I always had to tell the guy that the speakers he was making me listen to were out of phase... (The red plug into the red terminal, and the black one into the black one, is it so complcated ?!)

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #26 –
Quote
Aaah !
So it was on purpose !
I wondered why I always had to tell the guy that the speakers he was making me listen to were out of phase... (The red plug into the red terminal, and the black one into the black one, is it so complcated ?!)

You know what the problem is, most stereo shops can't afford super expensive cables so they wind up using rolls of 16 or 18 gauge lamp cord.

The + and - terminals are unmarked so its easier to screw up the connections.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #27 –
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On the topic of danish HIFI stores, I'd like to recommend Tape Connection. They have a broad range of products, usually priced lower than other stores. For example, they have the lowest price on Sennheiser HD600, I've seen anywhere (in Denmark).

i second that

Tape connection are about 1000dkr (~125u$) cheaper then hifi clubben on the denon avd1 somehing something
Sven Bent - Denmark

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #28 –
Quote
One of the favorite memories of my rec.audio.opinion newsgroup days was the thread detailing an ABX test between a Yahama receiver and some high-end amp (a Krell, I think). A self-proclaimed golden ear could not distinguish the two in the double-blind test. His room, his musical material and he still failed.

Funny, I just talked about this amp test at R.A.O. in another thread.

About amp comparisons, to be reliable must be done in a blind style, preferably double blind.

And about level matching, that is a thing not so obvious to do. A level match "by ear" is not reliable either. Levels must be matched with a voltmeter, or soundcard, or any other means of objective measuring, and the two amps or devices under comparison must be matched with a max. level difference of 0.1 dB.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #29 –
I found the original price for my soundcard...the rest I estimated was correct:


Soundcard: AudioClip Pro 16-bit ES1868 PnP [280DKR ~ 37USD ~ 38EUR]


That changes nothing I guess.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #30 –
I have the following hardware:

Soundcard:
Emagic EMI 2|6

This is an external USB AD/DA converter. This is professional stuff (so it’s expensive: > $ 400) but the sound is incredible. You have 6 analog output able to reproduce in 24 bit/96 khz. So it’s far enough for an mp3 or a wav. But even for a 16 bit/44.1 khz, the sound is really great. You can use the 6 output for a DVD in 5.1, if you have the amp and the speakers for it.

Amplifier +  speakers:
I’ve used to hear to very good speakers in studio and in my living room, but I have discovered great speakers during a trip in San Francisco (I’m from Europe): Monsoon.
This is an electro-static flat panel with integrated active crossover, amplifier and subwoofer. So you plug it in the output of your soundcard and it works. The clarity of the sound is incredible, particularly for the price: $ 150. For me, the sound is better than my old loudspeakers (Vandersteen) at $ 2 500. The subwoofer is a little bit weak. It’s also very directional so when you are at the right place it’s really amazing, if not it’s still better than other speakers.

So for a first replacement, I warmly recommend the Monsoon MM 702 (see http://www.monsoonaudio.com/index_mmedia.htm).

For the 5.1, I combine the MM 2000 with MM 702.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #31 –
Quote
About amp comparisons, to be reliable must be done in a blind style, preferably double blind.

And about level matching, that is a thing not so obvious to do. A level match "by ear" is not reliable either. Levels must be matched with a voltmeter, or soundcard, or any other means of objective measuring, and the two amps or devices under comparison must be matched with a max. level difference of 0.1 dB.

The differences we were able to pick up were not related to volume, but to things like atack, slam, space, and air. Forward positioning of voices in the soundfield was also a dead give-away for the cheaper transistor amps. The chip amps were also easy to pick up.

And I know audiophiles go on and on about such things, but the differences were there.

The person operating the switcher had to know what he was touching but the listeners were blinded.

Saying that all amplifiers sound the same is not a credible statement in my opinion.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #32 –
attack, slam, space, air, timbre, bass punch, crystal clear highs, soundstaging and other audiophile terms depend on volume to some extent. So without careful calibration with wattmeter or decibelmeter any comparisons of these qualities would be flawed. That's why I (and I guess also KikeG) asked you how you did it.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #33 –
That'a good thread to append my speaker questions 

I dont have so much money to spend, so I guess it will be bookshelf speakers with a sub, not floor standing ones as these are rather expensive if in a good class. Could you give me some suggestions which ones I should give a closer look? And an amp advice would also be fine.


thx

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #34 –
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attack, slam, space, air, timbre, bass punch, crystal clear highs, soundstaging and other audiophile terms depend on volume to some extent. So without careful calibration with wattmeter or decibelmeter any comparisons of these qualities would be flawed. That's why I (and I guess also KikeG) asked you how you did it.

Do you believe that all amplifiers sound the same? Or are we just discussing test procedures?

We matched the volume of the amps by ear. The sensitivities of the speakers we were connected to were all different so this was the only way we could quickly switch back and forth for the clients.

Undoubtedly, there is room for error in such a setup. We were as carefull as possible in setting the levels, as many customers not wanting to believe that amps could differ greatly raised the same concerns.

Remember, we didn't really care which sounded best, and if a cheaper amp had the better sound on a given speaker, so much the better for sales.

Volume mismatches were not responsible for the differences we heard.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #35 –
My belief is that the loudspeaker has much much more influence on the sound than the amplifier. It's not very difficult to build linear amps with moderate noisefloor for moderate amounts of money with the semiconductor technology we have today. Unfortunately there is no such "miracle medicine" for the loudspeakers (or listening rooms for that matter).

But of course you are right in that there are differences between amplifiers. What I believe is that differences between amps are so much smaller than the differences between various loudspeakers.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #36 –
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My belief is that the loudspeaker has much much more influence on the sound than the amplifier. It's not very difficult to build linear amps with moderate noisefloor for moderate amounts of money with the semiconductor technology we have today. Unfortunately there is no such "miracle medicine" for the loudspeakers (or listening rooms for that matter).

But of course you are right in that there are differences between amplifiers. What I believe is that differences between amps are so much smaller than the differences between various loudspeakers.

I agree with all of that completely. The speakers have the greatest influence on the sound with any reasonable quality amp.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #37 –
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Volume mismatches were not responsible for the differences we heard.

You can't be sure of that.

In the past there have been experiments of blind tests where the only differences between the two devices at test (or  better say "signals") were small volume differences. The listeners, who weren't aware of this, were convinced that they were different devices, and reported the louder device always as sounding much better, with more "air", "warmness", "liveness", etc. They also were convinced that the device with less volume was much worse.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #38 –
The power of the amplifier can make a difference. Audiophile amplis range from 7 to 200 watts, that's quite a difference.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #39 –
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The power of the amplifier can make a difference. Audiophile amplis range from 7 to 200 watts, that's quite a difference.

Yes, that's true. A very low power amplifier will distort much before as the listening volume is raised.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #40 –
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That'a good thread to append my speaker questions  

I dont have so much money to spend, so I guess it will be bookshelf speakers with a sub, not floor standing ones as these are rather expensive if in a good class. Could you give me some suggestions which ones I should give a closer look? And an amp advice would also be fine.


thx

where are You located and how much money would You like to spend ? if both are similiar to Jan S. 's - then just check the suggestions he was given  .

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #41 –
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You can't be sure of that.

This discussion will not have a resolution, I guess.

We took as much care as we could, and were initially skeptical as well.

I agree that differences in volume could easily cause trouble in an abx test, but as I have mentioned twice now, the outputs were matched quite carefully.

If you wish to believe that all amps sound the same, OK 

If you wish to believe that all audiophiles are purchasing upscale amps for reasons not related to their sound.....

Some of the tonal and spatial differences were audible at any volume. Things like bass slam were different no matter how loud you played the music. Some of the amps, especially some of the older Rotels just seemed to have better control of the larger drivers.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #42 –
All amps does definitely not sound the same. But careful measuring of output levels can be useful for ensuring that no amp does get any advantage over another in any respect.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #43 –
Volume difference does indeed make a huge difference. Check the old thread about the WinAMP SSRC plugin. Quotes like: WOW sounds so much better and louder...

Two good amps should probably sound the same. But how do you decide if an amp is "good"? In mid 90s, several Denon amps sounded too "bright". These were amps in the $150 - $600 range.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #44 –
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If you wish to believe that all audiophiles are purchasing upscale amps for reasons not related to their sound.....

I believe that, after all, this is what happens many of the times, same as with CD players.

I think that a good $500 amp (or less if you don't have low impedance/low efficiency speakers or need high listening levels), or a good $500 cd player (or probably cheaper) are undistinguishable from a good $5000 amp or cd.

There are many technically experienced people at the rec.audio groups that have years of experience in this camp, and that support this ideas too (in fact, I learnt some of these from them). However, and as one can suppose, there are many people, more of the audiophile camp, that totally disagree.

Now, I'm quite convinced that my computer-based audio setup of a $200 30W (ref. 8 Ohm.) Pioneer integrated amp plus my $150 M-Audio Audiophile soundcard, can't be distinguished in moderate (better say "comfortable") listening levels with regular speakers, in a blind test, from an ultra-expensive amp and cd player. I am convinced not for how they sound, but for how they perform, objectively, via measurements.

However, I'm open and truly interested to see if anybody can prove me otherwise. That's why I set up a soundcard challenge at my personal web page, www.kikeg.arrakis.es (more info at http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....8d768a1ee713d2a )

Maybe I will try something similar in the future, but adding amp influence to the test. However, I think this wouldn't be as representative of amp full actual performance, as a line level device is.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #45 –
Quote
Quote
That'a good thread to append my speaker questions  

I dont have so much money to spend, so I guess it will be bookshelf speakers with a sub, not floor standing ones as these are rather expensive if in a good class. Could you give me some suggestions which ones I should give a closer look? And an amp advice would also be fine.


thx

where are You located and how much money would You like to spend ? if both are similiar to Jan S. 's - then just check the suggestions he was given  .

hi maciey

Kennedy was the only one who made a suggestion (B&W 602), I cant find any others. I had already marked the B&W DM303 and 6xx series to give them a try when I have the possibility to do a test listening. But maybe their sound doesn't please me so I would like to know at least two or three other recommended models.

I live in Austria and I dont know any (more special) Hi-Fi stores here. I found out about some but it could be that no one carries the brands I'd like to listen to. So maybe I will make a short trip to Germany. As I am not able to travel every week thus far (already 450km to the border), I would need some names before that (other than B&W), hope you understand. Then I could visit some shops there and do extensive listening work 

It's not so important if the brand is not widely available, possibly I will find someone who has it. Just gimme some recommendations.

thx

P.S.: price: *upper* limit similar to the B&W 602 s3, which is about 250€ per speaker. Cuz maybe I need a sub too, which is not cheap at all. Or if someone knows of *good* and relatively cheap floor standing speakers...which I guess is hard to find 

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #46 –
theduke - i don't think i can help You much in this case... i remember seeing speaker reccomendation by e.g. Annuka in Hydrogenaudio Forums - so it must've been another thread. Personally i have El Cheapo Tannoy M1 speakers and i'm VERY VERY happy with them (i can only listen to them twice or so a week and most of the time i listen through headphones).

EDIT: i can't wait to hook some (remotely) decent sub along with them but guess... no cash

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #47 –
PSB also makes excellent affordable  speakers 

KikeG-  FWIW I dont consider myself much of an audiophile unless you take the term in the broadest sense of the word.

Like I said, most of the stuff we sold was affordable. Does a ten grand Mark Levinson amp sound 10X better than a thousand dollar Rotel? I doubt it.

My favorite is the $250 american interconnects or thousand dollar power cords that people buy.

I just wanted to relay that with the set-up we had, we were able to pseudo abx stuff and there were noticeable differences in amps by different manufacturers that were more or less in the same price point.

The differences were subtle compared to the differences heard in speakers that were similarly priced.

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #48 –
Amplis have maybe a more different sound if they are used at high volume, because each one will start to distort in its own manner.
 

What Should I Replace First?

Reply #49 –
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What I would like to know is where you think my first investment in my audio-system should be.

Green marker pen. 

Haha. Blast from the past 
flac > schiit modi > schiit magni > hd650