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Topic: 5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR (Read 18198 times) previous topic - next topic
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5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

HEAR YE! HEAR YE!

In the book Mixing With Your Mind by Stav(A great book), there is a chapter called Hit Record Formulae. Inside of this chapter the guy(Stav) proposes that there are certain qualities which EVERY Top Ten Song of the Year (example) shares. No matter what year and even classics like Beethoven's 5th. He says due to the political nature of the industry he cannot share those qualities in his book. What he does though is he proposes a scientific study type of thing which can be done in order to find what these qualities are. The way he offers though takes a long time, he says to listen to the songs for 2 hours a day, every day. I posted this on other forums but came here since this is one of the most popular place.

Here are the parameters(and clues) he says to follow:

  • EVERY Top Ten Song of every year has them. No Exceptions.
  • These qualities are NEVER in flops.
  • They cannot be expressed in musical terms. Thats why skilled musicians do not see them.
  • These common factors are defined in psychoacoustical terms.
  • Its not related to lyrics. Since there are instrumental top ten hits.
  • To cross check and eliminate false hope early test the theories
    against hits of opposite styles. He suggests Beethovens 5th, Let it Be and Sugar Sugar by the Archies.


Thats it. Thats all the clues he gives.


Some side notes:
Having read similiar threads on other forums a lot of the feedback that comes back is: its not real, theres no way, Blah Blah Blah etc.... and thats not what I'm looking for. I hope to combine the knowledge of everyone that replies and try to come up with these qualities. I myself have started doing what he suggests though 2 hours a day is a lot I do what I can.

So please, anyone and everyone give this some thought and help me out so we can Sherlock Holmes this sh*t. Doing this is also a sure fire way to improve producing skills.

If anyone wants me to email them this chapter let me know.

Thank you.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #1 –
Such "scientific" universal theories of music remind me of a comment made of serial music around 1960 (I forget the author), paraphrased: indeed, with such a system in place, one could imagine that all our music could be algorithmically generated, and we would be able to do away with composers entirely.

It's also very curious that the author is willing to assert that such a system exists, and that he knows it, and yet is too chickenshit to actually defend it.

I'm not disputing that there are very important things that can be learned from an analytical look at popular music, but I can assure you that obscurantism is probably not going to get you close to any of them.

EDIT: That said... I'll try to play along. Whatever theory he has which is general enough to handle both romantic symphonies and oldies rock music has to rely substantially on melody and harmony - musical qualities which tend to be universally and consistently recognized for their quality. For the musical styles which obviously do not rely on melody and harmony, there are typically other universally recognized qualities - lyric concerns probably being strongly among them. That's not to say that this theory references lyrics directly - it merely asserts that qualities exist in music which may be crafted to suit a popular audience, and that lyric content is one of those qualities.

On the classical side of things you can see this trend very strongly with the ancient genres which remain popular to the present day - classical and romantic. It is not a coincidence that are among the composition styles which focus the most on melody and harmony at the expense of counterpoint, hidden meaning, structural detail and other more esoteric qualities which typify the baroque and modern genres.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Axon on
I'm not disputing that there are very important things that can be learned from an analytical look at popular music, but I can assure you that obscurantism is probably not going to get you close to any of them.

I will not be engaging in any of this obscurantism. Learning is my #1 goal here.

Quote from: Axon on
EDIT: That said... I'll try to play along. Whatever theory he has which is general enough to handle both romantic symphonies and oldies rock music has to rely substantially on melody and harmony - musical qualities which tend to be universally and consistently recognized for their quality. For the musical styles which obviously do not rely on melody and harmony, there are typically other universally recognized qualities - lyric concerns probably being strongly among them. That's not to say that this theory references lyrics directly - it merely asserts that qualities exist in music which may be crafted to suit a popular audience, and that lyric content is one of those qualities.

On the classical side of things you can see this trend very strongly with the ancient genres which remain popular to the present day - classical and romantic. It is not a coincidence that are among the composition styles which focus the most on melody and harmony at the expense of counterpoint, hidden meaning, structural detail and other more esoteric qualities which typify the baroque and modern genres.

Here is a statement he makes and I quote:
"Buf if common denominators of hit records do exist, they may not be in the 'language' you expect, after all musicians have been looking for them for hundreds of years. By this I mean the common denominators may not be expressed in musical terms, which would explain why skilled musicians do not see them."
He goes on to say they are defined in psychoacoustic terms(any idea what these are?)

BTW--- Thanks for the reply this is exactly the kind of intellectual insight I am looking for. Different Points of View on things to rearrange the info in my head.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #3 –
BTW, it is a phenomenal stretch to call Beethoven 5 an example of "popular music". That would be like comparing Jay-Z to Prefuse 73. A much closer period match to the modern notion of pop music would be the operas of Rossini and Verdi, the arias of which were very well known among the plebs (and in Verdi's case arguably helped bring down a couple governments!)

I'm not sure how the author thinks psychoacoustics factor into this unless he is attempting a reduction of pop music down to, essentially, a question of production. Look at the partial loudness levels in each critical band of hearing and how their maximum and minimum levels are constrained by the limits of the listening venue and of human hearing. Look at how the composition and production of the music impacts the imaging and clarity of each instrument, particularly the vocals, and how such clarity is desired in much popular music.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Axon on
I'm not sure how the author thinks psychoacoustics factor into this unless he is attempting a reduction of pop music down to, essentially, a question of production.

I think he is trying to reduce it to quantifiable facts in relation to the production.
Quote from: Axon on
Look at the partial loudness levels in each critical band of hearing and how their maximum and minimum levels are constrained by the limits of the listening venue and of human hearing.

I don't really understand this. Need to read up on psychoacoustics.

Quote from: Axon on
Look at how the composition and production of the music impacts the imaging and clarity of each instrument, particularly the vocals, and how such clarity is desired in much popular music.


This is money right here. I was thinking something along these lines and how the main line of the song is presented, introduced, developed, climaxed and so on... But I have no precise ideas.


Here is a website which lists all the top tens from every year. Billboard Top 100

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #5 –
This sounds like another version of "The Golden Rules of Chart Pop", which the KLF backed up by getting a number one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manual

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #6 –
Why not analyze the "original" music from the past? The source of all beat and rhytm.
The people jumped, 10.000 years ago, to elephant skin made drums, some mushrooms and the quicks hands of the tribe drumer (who hopefully not died on his own vomit...) ;-)

It´s just some voodooooo again, like all the "i make you a millionair in an month!" books.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #7 –
You'd be surprised how much chance and plain randomness plays in the popular and commercial success of such things. Leonard Mlodinow in The Drunkard's Walk talks about this for movies and other things, but the same can be said of pop music. I don't even think quality or any common features are a lot more of an influence than pure "luck", and I also think this is truer for pop music than for movies.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #8 –
Quote
This is money right here. I was thinking something along these lines and how the main line of the song is presented, introduced, developed, climaxed and so on... But I have no precise ideas.


All song structure is written in is verse, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus type form. What you are referring to is the "chorus". It's always dominant in pop music and in songs. These are the type of songs that are considered "catchier" and usually either end up becoming singles intentionally or unintentionally. When you have a song that has a consistent chorus it's much easier to write a melody it is through this that you can then introduce harmony, etc. The rest is usually up to the producer to decide what elements they want to add into the song and how they want it to sound. It's the same formulaic approach all of the time with different elements being dropped and added.

Quote
Here is a website which lists all the top tens from every year. Billboard Top 100


I don't know anything about the 70's, but I can tell you the 80's "defined pop music". In the 70's producers were using horns and string sections in the 80's they turned to synthesizers and the occasional brass like the Saxophone. You can analyze anyone of those albums on the charts to determine what production techniques stood out ;D. I believe it's called "Critical Listening and Analysis" in music.
budding I.T professional

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #9 –
Those songs which use the Canon in D chord progressions are relatively successful.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #10 –
Quote
He says due to the political nature of the industry he cannot share those qualities in his book.
  A secret theory?  Gimmie a break! Almost every time a "secret theory" (or "secret invention") is exposed or reveled, it turns-out to be invalid. "

Of course, there are similarities with all music.  And, the industry tries to "follow the leader" and keep-up with the trends.  Sometimes these formulas work.  If fact, if you don't follow the trends, you have very little chance of getting your song produced or released.  However, I don't accept that these formulas work over decades or centuries.

Quote
What he does though is he proposes a scientific study type of thing which can be done in order to find what these qualities are.
When you propose a scientific study, you generally present the hypothesis.  How do you study a secret hypothesis?

Quote
These qualities are NEVER in flops.
In that case, he should be able to produce a "non-flop" every week...  Assuming he has control over these secret "qualities".



 
Quote
and the quick hands of the tribe drummer (who hopefully not died on his own vomit...) ;-)


Quote
They never could prove who's vomit it was...  You can't dust for vomit.




5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #11 –
Quote from: southisup on
This sounds like another version of "The Golden Rules of Chart Pop", which the KLF backed up by getting a number one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manual

This book isn't focused on this one chapter, its a book about engineering, with like 3 pages dedicated to this.

Quote from: andy o on
You'd be surprised how much chance and plain randomness plays in the popular and commercial success of such things. Leonard Mlodinow in The Drunkard's Walk talks about this for movies and other things, but the same can be said of pop music. I don't even think quality or any common features are a lot more of an influence than pure "luck", and I also think this is truer for pop music than for movies.

While I'm sure there is luck and chance involved I am also convinced that there are these common factors which only the top 10 songs have. Plus luck can't be logically quantified.


Quote from: HotshotGG on
All song structure is written in is verse, chorus, verse, bridge, chorus type form. What you are referring to is the "chorus". It's always dominant in pop music and in songs. These are the type of songs that are considered "catchier" and usually either end up becoming singles intentionally or unintentionally. When you have a song that has a consistent chorus it's much easier to write a melody it is through this that you can then introduce harmony, etc. The rest is usually up to the producer to decide what elements they want to add into the song and how they want it to sound. It's the same formulaic approach all of the time with different elements being dropped and added.


I am familiar with the concept of a chorus. The thing with this all these factors are present in flops so it doesnt apply. Also check out This hit number 10 in 1976. no Vocals.


Quote from: HotshotGG on
Quote
Here is a website which lists all the top tens from every year. Billboard Top 100


I don't know anything about the 70's, but I can tell you the 80's "defined pop music". In the 70's producers were using horns and string sections in the 80's they turned to synthesizers and the occasional brass like the Saxophone. You can analyze anyone of those albums on the charts to determine what production techniques stood out ;D. I believe it's called "Critical Listening and Analysis" in music.


Thanks, its tough looking for something when you have no idea what it is.  I will read up on this "Critical Listening and Analysis".


Quote from: Boiled Beans on
Those songs which use the Canon in D chord progressions are relatively successful.


I thought about this, the 6>4>1>5 proggression I think, but there are flops which have the same progressions so it doesn't apply.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #12 –


Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
He says due to the political nature of the industry he cannot share those qualities in his book.
  A secret theory?  Gimmie a break! Almost every time a "secret theory" (or "secret invention") is exposed or reveled, it turns-out to be invalid. "


Almost every time doesn't mean every time and so far no one has exposed this one, so I have no choice but to continue my search.


Quote from: DVDdoug on
Of course, there are similarities with all music.  And, the industry tries to "follow the leader" and keep-up with the trends.  Sometimes these formulas work.  If fact, if you don't follow the trends, you have very little chance of getting your song produced or released.  However, I don't accept that these formulas work over decades or centuries.

I don't think he proposes that this is a formula but just common factors which are present.


Quote from: DVDdoug on
Quote
What he does though is he proposes a scientific study type of thing which can be done in order to find what these qualities are.
When you propose a scientific study, you generally present the hypothesis.  How do you study a secret hypothesis?

I dont think its secret. I guess it is: There are 5 common qualities in all top 10 songs which aren't in flops.


Quote from: DVDdoug on
In that case, he should be able to produce a "non-flop" every week...  Assuming he has control over these secret "qualities".

First we gotta determine these qualities then I guess we'll know if they are controllable.



This is the typical types of responses I get everywhere, responses which are full of skepticism, doubt, etc... and thats not what I'm look for. I think logically your mind says "no it can't be" as the reflex response but crazier things have been proven true that seemed preposterous at first(world being flat/round). Its just our human nature to doubt such things when there are so many factors that point to no. What I am looking for though is some sort of ideas on what to look for, what factors am I missing when I analyze.

I challenge everyone to switch their paradigm and think outside the box and maybe together we can figure this out. Or maybe at least help me come up with some clues. Thanks for the responses.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #13 –
Is this nothing more than artful spam for a junk-science book-of-the-month?
Creature of habit.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Soap on
Is this nothing more than artful spam for a junk-science book-of-the-month?

No damn it, this book came out in 2003, I didn't even buy it I downloaded it, why does everyone keep saying this.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #15 –
Quote from: timfosho on
Quote from: Soap on
Is this nothing more than artful spam for a junk-science book-of-the-month?

No damn it, this book came out in 2003, I didn't even buy it I downloaded it, why does everyone keep saying this.

I can't speak for everyone, but for myself.
The description set off every single snake-oil detector in my body.
Creature of habit.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Soap on
Quote from: timfosho on
Quote from: Soap on
Is this nothing more than artful spam for a junk-science book-of-the-month?

No damn it, this book came out in 2003, I didn't even buy it I downloaded it, why does everyone keep saying this.

I can't speak for everyone, but for myself.
The description set off every single snake-oil detector in my body.

Well my dad is a used car salesman and I'm a telemarketer maybe thats why.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #17 –
I notice that he says that every top ten song must contain these 5 qualities - necessary but not sufficient. So even if you wrote a song meeting these criteria, that does not guarantee that it will be a hit, only that it will not be a flop.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #18 –
Quote from: pdq on
I notice that he says that every top ten song must contain these 5 qualities - necessary but not sufficient. So even if you wrote a song meeting these criteria, that does not guarantee that it will be a hit, only that it will not be a flop.

Yep great point, even with these factors present you'll still need a label, performers, marketing and so on...

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #19 –
Quote from: pdq on
I notice that he says that every top ten song must contain these 5 qualities - necessary but not sufficient. So even if you wrote a song meeting these criteria, that does not guarantee that it will be a hit, only that it will not be a flop.

I wouldn't even say that (assuming this theory describes a real philosopher's stone) it only says you have the minimum required to make a hit.  Does not promise you won't have a flop.
Creature of habit.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #20 –
1. Does this "secret theory" apply to Cambodian and Congolese music? For example, if the Aka Pygmies of the Congo had a hit parade would the same theory apply? Conversley does this theory not apply in the absence of a hit parade?

2. What about songs that are popular in a foreign country but a flop at home? "Looking for Freedom" by David Hasselhoff must have something in common with Beethovens 5th, Let it Be, Sugar Sugar and Agadoo (oh yeah, Agadoo only made it to no.2 in the Uk and was voted worst song in pop history). If these things do have anything in common is it worth finding out? Additionally, if someone can help me differentiate between "Looking for Freedom" and a flop I'd (pretend to) be interested.

3. Does this guy's theory apply to music which is not successful/popular at the time, but becomes very popular many years later?

C.

EDIT: Grammar

EDIT: It's also worth noting that shit and gold also have many things in common.
PC = TAK + LossyWAV  ::  Portable = Opus (130)

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #21 –
Quote from: carpman on
1. Does this "secret theory" apply to Cambodian and Congolese music? For example, if the Aka Pygmies of the Congo had a hit parade would the same theory apply? Conversley does this theory not apply in the absence of a hit parade?


He just says Billboard top ten of the year. Ie the top ten songs from here here


Quote from: carpman on
2. What about songs that are popular in a foreign country but a flop at home? "Looking for Freedom" by David Hasselhoff must have something in common with Beethovens 5th, Let it Be, Sugar Sugar and Agadoo (oh yeah, Agadoo only made it to no.2 in the Uk and was voted worst song in pop history). If these things do have anything in common is it worth finding out? Additionally, if someone can help me differentiate between "Looking for Freedom" and a flop I'd (pretend to) be interested.


Lol even though that agadoo song is retarted I think it would have those qualities. As far as the David Hasselhoof example, I dont know.


Quote from: carpman on
3. Does this guy's theory apply to music which is not successful/popular at the time, but becomes very popular many years later?

EDIT: It's also worth noting that shit and gold also have many things in common.


Dont know. He says top ten of the year every year + beethovens 5th as an example.

I am not aware of the connections between shit and gold.

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #22 –
Quote from: timfosho on
He just says Billboard top ten of the year. Ie the top ten songs from here here



# They cannot be expressed in musical terms. Thats why skilled musicians do not see them.
# These common factors are defined in psychoacoustical terms.
# Its not related to lyrics. Since there are instrumental top ten hits.

Ok, first the three points above and now only billboard songs? Billboard not even exists, when Beethoven created his art.
Based on this idea, it must fit for every music, because it´s not bound to lyric - just to psychoacoustical terms, which, so i hope, should be found in every music style. Even in russian pop music.

Quote from: timfosho on
Lol even though that agadoo song is retarted I think it would have those qualities. As far as the David Hasselhoof example, I dont know.


I don´t know... ok...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe3FG4EOgyU <-- Would beat the 'Hoff everytime
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number-one_hi...5_%28Germany%29

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #23 –
Quote from: timfosho on
I am not aware of the connections between shit and gold.

Well, both are made of atoms, both are found on planet earth and neither can fly.
My point being that it's easy to come up with abitrary categories and assign commonalities and differences (they do that in the "social sciences" all the time). In this case the arbitrary category is "billboard hits + Beethoven's 5th" (I assume he means the opening movement). So you can throw lots of things into that bucket and assume they have something in common, but in reality the only real thing they have in common is that they are billboard hits + Beethoven.

C.
PC = TAK + LossyWAV  ::  Portable = Opus (130)

5 Common Qualities in TOP 10 Songs Of the YEAR

Reply #24 –
Quote from: carpman on
Quote from: timfosho on
I am not aware of the connections between shit and gold.

Well, both are made of atoms, both are found on planet earth and neither can fly.
My point being that it's easy to come up with abitrary categories and assign commonalities and differences (they do that in the "social sciences" all the time). In this case the arbitrary category is "billboard hits + Beethoven's 5th" (I assume he means the opening movement). So you can throw lots of things into that bucket and assume they have something in common, but in reality the only real thing they have in common is that they are billboard hits + Beethoven.

C.

If it so easy how come not one person has suggested a single thing. First someone should offer some help and then I or we will seek to find out if its true or not. But of course no one helps .