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Topic: Audacity - file formats i can edit ? (Read 8010 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #75
normally, i would never even have read it.  and i dont recall ever seeing this before.  as you probably guessed, i like older music.  but i was not aware that it extended into the 78rpm era !!

so i did some research, and the 78s lasted all the way to about 1955.  to what degree, i dont know ?

this artist is relatively famous, certainly not obscure.  her first hit was in 1950.  georgia gibbs

there is some country in the 40s that i go back to, but certainly the majority of the stuff i listen to is from the 50s and 60s

most of the old country i get is from bear family, probably the best box set producer in the world.

i guess i dont understand this bit rate stuff that well.  i was sorta thinking it was similar to the lossless / lossy discussion.  in that once you lost information, you couldnt get it back

so i figured that once it was placed in 16-bit, there would be nothing gained from putting it back in 24-bit ?

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #76
i guess i dont understand this bit rate stuff that well.  i was sorta thinking it was similar to the lossless / lossy discussion.  in that once you lost information, you couldnt get it back
so i figured that once it was placed in 16-bit, there would be nothing gained from putting it back in 24-bit ?

1 lossless. you don't lost information
2 lossy.  At good bit-rates, to put it simply, you just lose information which you can not hear. (more learned ones than me can explain this much better)
3 Yes correct, there would be nothing gained from putting it back into 24-bit

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #77
so i figured that once it was placed in 16-bit, there would be nothing gained from putting it back in 24-bit ?
Nothing says the tapes/files in the studios / at the workstations, are 16 bits. (Nothing says they are even digital.)
If it says "24-bit remastering", it means - well if they are speaking the truth - that they were doing processing in a 24-bit format. Then before delivered to you on CD, it is reduced to 16.
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Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #78
i see - then there is nothing that i can do, to make it sound better, once it is a cd.

but the 24-bit remastering was good, because it allowed them to make a better source before reducing it to a 16, when they put it on cd.

is that pretty much the gist of it ?

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #79
Yes, that is the essence.  I'll be glossing over some details here:

Digital processing involves a ton of mathematical operations with round-off errors. Round-off is at the "quiet" end, the so-called least significant bit(s).
But at the loud end, you must be sure that you don't increase volume above max. (There is a solution to this, the "floating-point" I mention below.)
So if you, say, want to apply EQ, making some part louder - you would first have to ensure that everything is low enough to have headroom for the increase. But reducing volume would round the quiet part off.

With 24 bits you got 8 to spare. Just for the sake of the argument, you can reduce everything by four bits first, and that leaves you headroom for volume increases, and then the last four bits take care that round-offs at the quiet end becomes small.
You do the mixing job. Say that after you are done, the peak is down at -22 dB (while you were working, it could have been at -9 temporarily, but you have room for that!). Then in the very final stage, you
* increase volume, bumping everything upwards to get the most out of the bits, and then
* reduce to 16 bits.


That is the short story. Oh, and "24" ... why 24, is the 24th really necessary? Well there are 8 bits in a byte.


Also there are a couple of more issues: The 16th bit - like all the others - is 1 or 0. Like, a lightbulb is "on" or "off", right? Oh, enter dimmers. If you know that you only want 1/4 of the light, set the dimmer to 1/4. That actually keeps the lightbulb "on" for an average of 1/4 of the time, switching very often. So you can get the "16th" bit at variable volume that way. It is called "dither". But you need then to know that for this second, the 16th bit should be at "1/4" volume. So the file should have more bits before reducing to 16. Had you worked in 16 bits, you couldn't have done this.


And then, a so-called floating-point format adds up some bits to automagically handle the volume, safeguarding against clipping. So tech has moved up to 32-bit floating-point. 32 is absolute overkill, but the format is practical for several reasons:
* 32 is a multiple of 8
* The format can contain losslessly the 24-bit file
* Technician doesn't even have to lend an eye to the volume, the digital audio workstation just sets the "volume control bits" for each sample. Where 24 bits would have room for the studio technician to fix volume prior to doing the operations, it now just happens.
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Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #80
the 24-bit remastering was good, because it allowed them to make a better source before reducing it to a 16, when they put it on cd
No. Think of it this way: you have 12 ounces of beer to pour into either a 16-ounce or a 24-ounce glass.  Would it taste any better in the latter?  16/44 already far exceeds the performance envelope of the original source.  Very few analog disks approach 72 dB S/N and the average is closer to 60 dB (10 bits!)
then there is nothing that i can do, to make it sound better, once it is a cd
Of course you can make it sound "better"; it's all subjective.  Change the EQ, change the tempo, whatever makes you happy and whatever you think sounds better.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #81
Very few analog disks approach 72 dB S/N and the average is closer to 60 dB

And the same goes for the microphones you can buy in 2021.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #82
you have 12 ounces of beer to pour into either a 16-ounce or a 24-ounce glass.  Would it taste any better in the latter?
Have you seen people drinking wine from huge glasses? :))

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #83
thanks for the explanations.  i should have made myself more clear.  i wasnt referring to my subjective listening.  just whether i could make the music better by somehow leaving it in 24-bits.  now i know that once it is on a cd, it is already in 16-bit mode.

just so you know, i do like to play around with the tempo.  mostly to increase it, while exercising.  but that is in addition to the original song, not in replacement.  if i like a song well enough to increase the tempo, i also like the original version.

and sometimes i may like the original better.  but the upbeat one is better for workout.

i love satisfaction by the stones, but i must say the upbeat one is even better !! 

i have never played around with the equalizer.

my dream come true would be the ability to wipe out one instrument, if i did not like it.  i love country music, but i hate that dang steel guitar when they make it do any sort of whining or reverberating.  i also hate the trumpet if they make it blare, by seeing how ridiculously long they can play one note.  although most of the music i listen to does not have a trumpet in it.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #84
my dream come true would be the ability to wipe out one instrument, if i did not like it.  i love country music, but i hate that dang steel guitar when they make it do any sort of whining or reverberating.  i also hate the trumpet if they make it blare, by seeing how ridiculously long they can play one note.  although most of the music i listen to does not have a trumpet in it.

Sadly unless you could get a hold of the original studio masters this is not really possible.


Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #86
i can imagine a way of doing it.  all instruments put out sound, including their overtones at various frequencies.  i just dont think there is a big enough need for it.

guy mitchell had a big hit with singing the blues.  and also had a sorta copy of the song with knee deep in the blues.  each of them had that annoying teeth whistling in it.  and then again with me and my imagination.  but i dont think he ever did it again.  i am pretty sure that the organization was wised up to that by someone.

i dont know if the steel guitar is still used in country music, but i think the industry wised up to that, as well.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #87
found another use for audacity.  3 songs of the everly brothers had all the singing on just 1 channel.  there is a way to separate the stereo channels and edit them separately.  there is also a way to convert it to a mono recording, which is the only way to fix this problem.  since i am mainly interested in melody, stereo is not a big improvement over mono, for me.  but the singing has to be in the middle - i hate it when that is unbalanced.  and to be honest, i like most of the music fairly balanced.  if they want to do a 60-40 on an instrument, that is probably okay.  but i would prefer all instruments to be fairly close to the middle.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #88
Downmix to mono can be done in e.g. foobar2000 as well.

Don't know what you are using to convert to ALAC, but if you are using refalac: don't use "--fast", especially not on mono encoded as stereo, those become twice as big. "Mono encoded as stereo" means two identical channels, and most encoders recognize that and encode it as efficiently as if it were only one, but it is possible to switch off and "--fast" does that.  And I don't know if this thing from 2008 has been fixed (errors when encoding mono files).


As for the material:
Not knowing the Everly Brothers' recording sessions in particular: it was quite common to use two channels like this in studio for recordings intended to be released as mono. Then come the CD, and the idea that they could trick us into buying the same music over again with remaster editions: of course, "stereo" studio tapes never before released would be a selling point eh?
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Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #89
hi porcus, i am not sure where "fast" is placed.  but apparently i am not doing that.  when i go to save the file, it gives me a warning that "this file will be encoded to just one channel".

i just checked.  the file size is approximately half as big as most of the other songs.  so that is occurring correctly. 

when you go to save a file, it asks for 2 things.  one is the quality, which i put at 8, the best quality.  it is a very short process, even at that quality, so i saw no reason not to do that.  and then it asks for bit rate, and i have it at 16.  it keeps my default answers, so i dont need to do anything with it.

the beatles did this as well, with a few of their original albums, but even worse.  they put all the singing on one channel, and all the instruments on the other channel.  at some point after cds came out, they created real stereo mixes with all of them, so i dont recall which ones were originally like that.  but it was the stuff that i liked - the first half of their career, before they got all drugged out.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #90
when you go to save a file, it asks for 2 things.  one is the quality, which i put at 8, the best quality.  it is a very short process, even at that quality, so i saw no reason not to do that.  and then it asks for bit rate, and i have it at 16.
You save as FLAC from audacity then, and later convert to ALAC?

Anyway, as long as it works, it works.
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Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #91
yes, that was my best bet.  i use foobar to go from flac to alac.  i do need to add some metadata, but it is well worth it, if i can fix up a song.

i had a song that i liked a lot, called i'm hog tied over you by ernie ford, but it had some real irritating music for about 10 seconds in it, that was really keeping me from playing it.

funny thing is that the copy on the internet has this portion shortened.  but the full version of the song on my bear family boxset, plays it for considerably longer.

so i actually got rid of it.  and it sounds real good.  i ended up with a good continuity that i dont think you would notice if i didnt point it out.  first time i tried editing in the middle.

most of the time i would probably just delete it from my playlist, but this one i liked enough to try and save it - LOL

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #92
how about this for some fancy editing !!!  i mainly wanted to experiment.  so i had this irritating electric guitar on the channel.  luckily, it is usually only one 1 channel.  so in audacity, i split the stereo track.  this gives me access to one track at a time.  i also can adjust the playback, so i only hear 1 track.

in this particular instance, the guitar is on the right track.  so i select each of the irritating places, and do a negative amplification, bringing the volume way down.  i then make a mono track out of it.  re-amplify the quieter sections.  and boom, i have a mono track, and can't hear the irritating parts at all, while on my computer.  will have to test it out on earphones.  but i am pretty sure if i can hear it at all, it will be too low to bother me.

some stereo mixing sounds good.  but i do not really like it too much when one sound is only coming out in 1 ear.  especially with sounds that i am not too crazy about.  i am mostly interested in the melody.  and unless the frequencies are really close together, i dont need stereo to hear the various instruments.  so very often, i prefer mono.  and there are some times that i have to hear it in mono, as the stereo mix is irritating to my ears.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #93
Quote
in this particular instance, the guitar is on the right track.  so i select each of the irritating places, and do a negative amplification, bringing the volume way down.  i then make a mono track out of it.  re-amplify the quieter sections.
Wave Repair (an application for cleaning-up digitized vinyl) has a "similar" method of removing clicks & pops.   Frequently a vinyl defect only exists in one channel (or it's time-offset in the left & right) and there is an option to copy from left-to-right or vice versa.   Since it's only a few milliseconds you don't usually hear any loss of stereo.   (From what I remember it only allows a few milliseconds.)

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #94
hi guys, audacity does a good job of creating a mono file from a stereo one.  i was wondering if there is any way to do a cd at a time ?  either with audacity or some other program ?

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #95
i was wondering if there is any way to do a cd at a time ?
foobar2000 can probably rip a CD to mono with the "Downmix channels to mono" DSP in its effects chain.  Sorry, I don't have a CD at hand to confirm.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #96
sorry, i did not ask my question very clearly.  i have some of my cds ripped to individual folders.  so what i would be happy with is to convert a folder from stereo to mono, once i have finished any other editing i might need to do.  i would not be using an actual cd.  i do that when i do my original rip to wavpack.  i dont touch those files, cuz i always want an original lossless file.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #97
here is what i did do, BUT UNSUCCESSFULLY.

i dont think i have ever gone to the preferences screen.  but once there, i clicked on dsp manager, underneath the playback mode.  i then clicked on stereo to mono - and placed it in the active dsp column on the left.  i then converted the file to apple lossless.  it was already in apple lossless - was just hoping it would convert it to mono at the same time.  IT DID NOT.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #98
okay, what that does is simply affect the playback of it.  if i click it on, it does play the song in foobar in mono.  but it does not do any physical changes to the file.

Re: Audacity - file formats i can edit ?

Reply #99
If you want to modify the file, put the "Downmix" DSP in your conversion chain. Once you have it working, save it as a preset.