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Topic: Neil Young’s new audio format (Read 137162 times) previous topic - next topic
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Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #276 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
We don't want to test a straw man. It's kind of pointless to prove that the compression applied by a bunch of amateurs on HA using cheap/free tools doesn't sound very good.


So you're saying the cheap/free tools don't sound very good? And this is based on what?

And some of us think the compression applied by professionals on their high end gear often doesn't sound very good either.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #278 –
Quote from: Rich B on
So people preferred the Iphone to the Pono player in a blind test. But correct me if I'm wrong, but a blind test doesn't help if people don't know what to listen for. Many people have heard an iPhone play music before, so subconsciously people would prefer something that sounds familiar to them.

Yes, the small difference and slight preference may not be significant, but the main purpose of the test was to see if the extreme claims (compared to Pono, iTunes is like listening underwater) or the extreme reactions of the rock stars in the promotional video could be demonstrated/reproduced---they couldn't, not easily anyway.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #279 –
Quote from: bandpass on
the main purpose of the test was to see if the extreme claims (compared to Pono, iTunes is like listening underwater) or the extreme reactions of the rock stars in the promotional video could be demonstrated/reproduced

This was my take as well.

Quote from: bandpass on
they couldn't, not easily anyway.

Not, "not easily," but rather not at all.  This isn't even because of the alleged outcome of the test, but because the test was so poorly designed that it couldn't possibly demonstrate the claims even if they were true.

Quote from: bandpass on
Yes, the  small difference and slight preference may not be significant

No, the test failed to adequately demonstrate any difference or preference, at least not so far as the players are concerned.

GIGO
 

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #280 –
Quote from: Rich B on
So people preferred the Iphone to the Pono player in a blind test.


Please remember the claims being tested.

What Neil young claimed was an advantage for Pono from Rolling Stone

"
"Pono is about the music," Young said in the video below. "It’s about the people who make the music and the way it sounds to us when we’re in the studio making it. It’s about you hearing what we hear. And that hasn’t happened in a long time. I want to bring back real music. That’s why we’re on Kickstarter. So that everyone who loves music can share in the release of Pono and the launch of the real music experience in the 21st century."
"

I could be reading what I want to read, but I see a claim that there's nothing subtle about the sound quality improvements that it is alleged to deliver.


Quote
But correct me if I'm wrong, but a blind test doesn't help if people don't know what to listen for. Many people have heard an iPhone play music before, so subconsciously people would prefer something that sounds familiar to them.


If there's nothing subtle about the improved sound quality, how much training should the average person need in order to reliably detect it?

I think: None!

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #281 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
... ... ...

If there's nothing subtle about the improved sound quality, how much training should the average person need in order to reliably detect it?

I think: None!


As a music-lover-on-the-street guy, with only a small-marginally greater-than-most interest in music technology, equipment and gadgetry --- I think "None!" too
The most important audio cables are the ones in the brain

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #282 –
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
... ... ...

If there's nothing subtle about the improved sound quality, how much training should the average person need in order to reliably detect it?

I think: None!


As a music-lover-on-the-street guy, with only a small-marginally greater-than-most interest in music technology, equipment and gadgetry --- I think "None!" too



For me it is deja vu all over again. Back in the days when we first did ABX tests of power amps it was widely believed that there were and I quote "Mind Blowing Differences" between certain power amps.

Now critics look at the documentation of those tests (say the Stereo Review Amp test or the Hi Fi News Amp test) and criticize the tests on the grounds of the exact associated gear, statistical analysis, optimal listening room acoustics  or extensive listener training. Back in the day the advocates of these allegedly better sounding power amps said nothing about the exact associated gear, optimal listening room acoustics, statistical analysis, or extensive listener training except that it wasn't needed because the audible differences were so clear.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #283 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: Rich B on
So people preferred the Iphone to the Pono player in a blind test.


Please remember the claims being tested.

What Neil young claimed was an advantage for Pono from Rolling Stone

"
"Pono is about the music," Young said in the video below. "It’s about the people who make the music and the way it sounds to us when we’re in the studio making it. It’s about you hearing what we hear. And that hasn’t happened in a long time. I want to bring back real music. That’s why we’re on Kickstarter. So that everyone who loves music can share in the release of Pono and the launch of the real music experience in the 21st century."
"

I could be reading what I want to read, but I see a claim that there's nothing subtle about the sound quality improvements that it is alleged to deliver.


Quote
But correct me if I'm wrong, but a blind test doesn't help if people don't know what to listen for. Many people have heard an iPhone play music before, so subconsciously people would prefer something that sounds familiar to them.


If there's nothing subtle about the improved sound quality, how much training should the average person need in order to reliably detect it?

I think: None!


Then, Mr. Young, stop compressing your music and cranking up the volume.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #284 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Now critics [...] criticize the tests on the grounds of the exact associated gear, statistical analysis, optimal listening room acoustics  or extensive listener training. Back in the day the advocates of these allegedly better sounding power amps said [...] it wasn't needed because the audible differences were so clear.

It's called moving the goal posts and it's not atypical of the logical fallacies used by placebophiles.

We bring it up regularly, but it's typically ignored out of convenience.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #285 –
Why was the test poorly designed, greynol? What am I missing here? There are a number of sources claiming Neil Young is peddling junk science in this product. David Pogue did a double blind test using multiple people and multiple trials.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #286 –
Begin by reading the article in its entirety, if you haven't already. Then follow the discussion that ensued after the link was first presented:
http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php...st&p=888749

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #287 –
Quote from: Rich B on
Why was the test poorly designed, greynol? What am I missing here? There are a number of sources claiming Neil Young is peddling junk science in this product. David Pogue did a double blind test using multiple people and multiple trials.


I don't necessarily see a useful DBT in  David Pogue's Pono Critique

Three relevant questions:

(1) Was there adequate level matching?  I don't see any evidence of that.

(2) Was everybody who knew the identity of the players fully concealed from the listeners? I don't see any evidence of that.

(3) Were the recordings time synched within a few milliseconds? I don't see any evidence of that.

I guess his listeners were poorly trained because a well-trained listener could ace this test even if it was comparing two identical players.

More questions, maybe a bit more nit-picky:

(4) Were there enough trials to develop statistical significance? I don't see any evidence of that.

(5) Were the listeners screened and trained? I don't see any evidence of that.

As Greynol says, this was all covered once in the the HA thread he linked.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #288 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Now critics [...] criticize the tests on the grounds of the exact associated gear, statistical analysis, optimal listening room acoustics  or extensive listener training. Back in the day the advocates of these allegedly better sounding power amps said [...] it wasn't needed because the audible differences were so clear.

It's called moving the goal posts and it's not atypical of the logical fallacies used by placebophiles.

We bring it up regularly, but it's typically ignored out of convenience.



Good point. We've seen some pretty spectacular goalpost re-positioning schemes in play around here lately.  Our buddy from WBF has an interesting take on people skills - insult them and call them liars and incompetents until they do what you want, which is by the way Mission Impossible. 

Begs the question: If we are such liars and incompetents, why does it matter to him what we do? And if we are so incompetent, why can't he just run right out and just do what we routinely do?  That store room of overpriced DACs is his, which makes him the best person in the world to prove that they actually do sound better, or at least different. He didn't even offer me one to test it (sniff, sniff). ;-)

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #292 –
Quote from: Wombat on
There is also the other aspect that new and breathtaking masters will be offered. Archimago did summerize some:
'Last' Words on PONO - Mastering Analysis & General Comments
Not a huge surprise. As I said a million times before, if you don't know, acknowledge and understand the problem you cannot solve it.
It's only audiophile if it's inconvenient.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #293 –
Quote from: Kohlrabi on
Quote from: Wombat on
There is also the other aspect that new and breathtaking masters will be offered. Archimago did summerize some:
'Last' Words on PONO - Mastering Analysis & General Comments
Not a huge surprise. As I said a million times before, if you don't know, acknowledge and understand the problem you cannot solve it.

That shows cynicism about hi-res is fully justified. At least it's a single link rebuttal to the "maybe hi-res itself isn't justified, but support it and you'll get better masters that will benefit everyone" argument.

Cheers,
David.

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #294 –
Quote from: ech3 on
(Sorry if this has been posted earlier in this thread.)

Here's Ars Technica review of the Pono player.

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/02/pon...k-of-snake-oil/

The authors seem to think DAC is an acronym for digital audio converter.
Quote
Mostly, we preferred on the Pono where the bass sat in the mix, which we noticed was less of a bitrate issue and more of the Pono Player's on-board mix of pre-amp and digital audio converter (DAC).

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #295 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Now critics [...] criticize the tests on the grounds of the exact associated gear, statistical analysis, optimal listening room acoustics  or extensive listener training. Back in the day the advocates of these allegedly better sounding power amps said [...] it wasn't needed because the audible differences were so clear.

It's called moving the goal posts and it's not atypical of the logical fallacies used by placebophiles.

We bring it up regularly, but it's typically ignored out of convenience.



Yes, we bring it up regularly,  and the crickets chirp just as regularly in response.

It's quite telling, really.  The jkenys and Amirs of the 'our' world don't really want to face the reality that the typical audio consumer -- as well as the 'audiophile' --  faces. 

At best, they  imagine that a new reality is already here. 

At worst, they just want to sell stuff.

(insert ten-ton gorilla / forest for trees / emperor's clothes metaphor here )

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #296 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
That shows cynicism about hi-res is fully justified. At least it's a single link rebuttal to the "maybe hi-res itself isn't justified, but support it and you'll get better masters that will benefit everyone" argument.

Another one making fun out of us customers.
Bob Dylan's "Shadows In The Night" - when 24-bit HRA isn't!
Is troll-adiposity coming from feederism?
With 24bit music you can listen to silence much louder!

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #297 –
Another technical writer reveals his disappointment at Young's "revolutionary " promise not being after all, revolutionary at all.

IMO,  what makes this one in particular stand out from other articles, is that the writer even mentions the truly-religious platitudes audiophiles are willing to desperately throw in  whenever their blind faith is challenged by plain two-plus-two-equals-four results - be it his own simplitic A-B test or the now-legendary Moran-Meyer paper.
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #298 –
Quote from: includemeout on
Another technical writer reveals his disappointment at Young's "revolutionary " promise not being after all, revolutionary at all.

IMO,  what makes this one in particular stand out from other articles, is that the writer even mentions the truly-religious platitudes audiophiles are willing to desperately throw in  whenever their blind faith is challenged by plain two-plus-two-equals-four results - be it his own simplitic A-B test or the now-legendary Moran-Meyer paper.


The unprecidented beat down of the Pono player continues.

Research stimulated by an HA article about the Altman Tara digital player indicates that the recommended headphones are Koss Porta Pro headphones with a floobydust mod.  A $1099 player and $40 headphones????

Neil Young’s new audio format

Reply #299 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
The unprecidented beat down of the Pono player continues.the

Honestly hoping we all stick to the verbal side of it; they practically asked for it, didn't they? 
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução