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Topic: Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering (Read 17081 times) previous topic - next topic
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Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

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Personally, I think this is a good thing and could be a death blow to the "Loudness War"

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #1 –
I don't know about death blow. A big part of the loudness wars is that the musicians themselves want it "one louder." They consider it higher quality. Or, they're willing to put their reservations aside, and go with what sells.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #2 –
Awesome. I've always thought "why wouldn't you do two versions?" - but to make the second one a freebie for anyone who has purchased the first is great.

Cheers,
David.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #3 –
"NOTE: The standard mastered version is in no way inferior to the Audiophile Version - we wouldn’t release something inferior as the default."

Do you think they really believe that?

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #4 –
With regards to whether they actually believe that the standard edition isn't inferior to the audiophile version, I doubt it.  Maybe I'm wrong, though.
EDIT: And I now realize that I deserve a giant woosh as the point flies over my head.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #5 –
I've bought the Pre-Order Deluxe Version.

This is what you'll get for digital downloads.

Four formats are offered.

MP3 (Lame 3.99r) | VBR -V0 | 16bit | 44100Hz
FLAC (reference libFLAC 1.2.1 20070917) | 24bit | 48000Hz
PCM | 24bit | 48000Hz
ALAC (xACT 2.23, QuickTime 7.7.1,  (62.2%); xACT 2.21, QuickTime 7.7.1,  (37.8%)) | 24bit | 48000Hz
EZ CD Audio Converter / FLAC or WavPack

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #6 –
And I believe you'll be able to choose between the two different masterings for each of those 4 formats starting September 3rd.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #7 –
Quote from: soundping on
MP3 (Lame 3.99r) | VBR -V0 | 16bit | 44100Hz
MP3 is 32-bit float in the frequency domain.  Implying that the MP3 is either encoded as or can only be decoded to 16-bit would be completely wrong.

If the source for the MP3 version was 16-bit then it should be stated as such. Otherwise, bit depth should not be stated at all. If the source for the MP3 version was 16-bit then I'd be curious to know why the depth was reduced since it is unnecessary for MP3 encoding; not that I think it matters.

Is it safe to assume that the recording sample rate was 48 kHz (or a multiple of 48 kHz) since the "audiophile" version is being offered this way?  Why not 44.1 since that was the intended primary destination?

Hopefully a high-quality SRC was used for the dynamically compressed version.  Enthusiasts can make their own dynamic lossy or CD versions with minimal effort since good SRCs are available for free. I don't know the same can be said for multi-band compressors.

I hope offering free dynamic lossless versions catches on.  It's nice to have this alternative without also having to sacrifice quality because it was only being offered on vinyl.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #8 –
Not terribly impressed by the audiophile master.  Here are the DR meter logs.

Audiophile:

foobar2000 1.2.9 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2013-09-02 23:21:11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Nine Inch Nails / Hesitation Marks (Audiophile Mastered Version)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR9 -1.51 dB -18.62 dB 0:52 01-The Eater Of Dreams
DR5 -0.05 dB -7.97 dB 5:23 02-Copy Of A
DR5 -0.05 dB -6.65 dB 5:17 03-Came Back Haunted
DR5 -0.05 dB -8.34 dB 5:16 04-Find My Way
DR7 -0.05 dB -9.55 dB 6:18 05-All Time Low
DR6 -0.05 dB -8.83 dB 5:44 06-Disappointed
DR5 -0.05 dB -6.82 dB 3:20 07-Everything
DR7 -0.05 dB -9.35 dB 5:03 08-Satellite
DR5 -0.05 dB -8.34 dB 5:01 09-Various Methods Of Escape
DR6 -0.05 dB -7.21 dB 4:08 10-Running
DR6 -0.05 dB -7.79 dB 4:33 11-I Would For You
DR7 -0.05 dB -10.89 dB 5:32 12-In Two
DR7 0.00 dB -9.10 dB 4:03 13-While I'm Still Here
DR5 0.00 dB -7.73 dB 1:29 14-Black Noise
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 14
Official DR value: DR6

Samplerate: 48000 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 1607 kbps
Codec: FLAC


Standard  (meant to download the FLAC instead of the ALAC, oops.):

foobar2000 1.2.9 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2013-09-02 23:35:37

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Nine Inch Nails / Hesitation Marks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR8 -0.35 dB -18.20 dB 0:52 01-The Eater Of Dreams
DR4 0.00 dB -7.07 dB 5:23 02-Copy Of A
DR4 0.00 dB -5.81 dB 5:17 03-Came Back Haunted
DR6 -0.10 dB -8.43 dB 5:16 04-Find My Way
DR5 0.00 dB -7.15 dB 6:18 05-All Time Low
DR6 0.00 dB -8.64 dB 5:44 06-Disappointed
DR3 -0.50 dB -5.24 dB 3:20 07-Everything
DR5 0.00 dB -6.89 dB 5:03 08-Satellite
DR5 0.00 dB -8.01 dB 5:01 09-Various Methods Of Escape
DR7 -0.16 dB -8.06 dB 4:08 10-Running
DR5 0.00 dB -6.76 dB 4:33 11-I Would For You
DR6 0.00 dB -9.34 dB 5:32 12-In Two
DR8 0.00 dB -9.29 dB 4:03 13-While I'm Still Here
DR4 0.00 dB -6.62 dB 1:29 14-Black Noise
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 14
Official DR value: DR5

Samplerate: 48000 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 1652 kbps
Codec: ALAC

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #9 –
I am not aware what NIN are doing these days, but when I listened to them quite a bit ago, they were some kind of industrial/noise mix. You really can't make quiet and/or dynamic recording in that genre.

EDIT: some dyslexic stuff
Error 404; signature server not available.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #10 –
You can see the difference in loudness between standard and audiophile mastering.

GoldWave: NIN - Copy Of A [FLAC] (Audiophile Mastered)
Some file info: 02 Copy Of A.flac
Play Time: 5:22
File Size: 64.43 MB
http://www.mediafire.com/view/6nr5dc55nw7i...e_mastered).jpg


GoldWave: NIN - Copy Of A [FLAC] (Standard Mastered)
Some file info: 02 Copy Of A.flac
Play Time: 5:22
File Size: 66.51 MB
http://www.mediafire.com/view/x5kx3ws09vnj...d_mastered).jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

30sec Audio Samples
Selected Sample Time: 3:10 - 3:40
Source File Names: 02 Copy Of A.flac
GoldWave v5.69 was used.

Audiophile Version:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1931cd9c...le.version.flac


Standard Version:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/mc12t0eg...rd.version.flac



* My personal opinion is the audiophile version should have been the standard release not the exception.
EZ CD Audio Converter / FLAC or WavPack

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #11 –
What does it sound like?

A 30 second extract from each version, at a point where you might expect to hear a difference, would be great if anyone has the time.

Any ReplayGain values?

Cheers,
David.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #12 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
What does it sound like?

A 30 second extract from each version, at a point where you might expect to hear a difference, would be great if anyone has the time.

Any ReplayGain values?

Cheers,
David.

30sec audio samples posted and I'm not seeing any ReplayGain values in the original files.
EZ CD Audio Converter / FLAC or WavPack

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #13 –
Thanks. The "audiophile" version has a little more bass, the "standard" version is a little brighter, and yes maybe there's a little less distortion in the audiophile version.

But considering they told everyone that they'd done something different, the difference is pretty small.

(I used ReplayGain to match the levels. On that 30 second section, standard version = -12.70dB and audiophile version = -11.38dB. fb2k 1.2.2 RG scanner = EBUR128. Without it, the standard version is slightly louder, but not by a huge amount. Not really enough that you'd think it matters in the loudness wars, so why not just release the "audiophile" version?)

Code: [Select]
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v1.2.2
2013/09/03 15:14:42

File A: D:\audio\NIN 30sec.audiophile.version.flac
File B: D:\audio\NIN 30sec.standard.version.flac

15:14:42 : Test started.
15:15:02 : 01/01  50.0%
15:15:07 : 02/02  25.0%
15:15:11 : 03/03  12.5%
15:15:15 : 04/04  6.3%
15:15:21 : 05/05  3.1%
15:15:25 : 06/06  1.6%
15:15:29 : 07/07  0.8%
15:15:33 : 08/08  0.4%
15:15:39 : Test finished.

 ---------- 
Total: 8/8 (0.4%)



I guess one explanation is that the standard version is so close to how they wanted it to sound that by making the audiophile version any more "audiophile", it wouldn't sound as the artist wanted. Or, saying the same thing the other way, the audiophile version is exactly what they wanted and already a bit compression and crunchy, and they didn't feel the need to push it that far to create a competitive "standard" version.

The other explanation is that, like many a person deeply involved in a creative project, differences which sound small to anyone else sound huge to those involved, and they think they have released two radically different versions, at opposing limits of what they found to be acceptable.

When ever I have heard things like this in the past (less mastered vs more mastered/louder), the differences have been huge - 6dB or more loudness+compression differences, often huge EQ and effects differences too. It is amazing how "audiophile" and non-commercial the master tapes of some recordings sound.

Cheers,
David.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #14 –
The audio is hitting peak on both versions. The audiophile version needed to be remixed to obtain the best quality and tonal separation.

The synthesizer sound modulates each tone so close when the sound peaks everything blends.
EZ CD Audio Converter / FLAC or WavPack

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #15 –
Let's not forget the audiophile version also has better PRaT with 8 bits more danceability.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #16 –
Quote from: soundping on
The audio is hitting peak on both versions. The audiophile version needed to be remixed to obtain the best quality and tonal separation.

The synthesizer sound modulates each tone so close when the sound peaks everything blends.


So you're saying they mixed the album wrong and it's not how they wanted it to sound? I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what they said.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #17 –
Quote from: probedb on
Quote from: soundping on
The audio is hitting peak on both versions. The audiophile version needed to be remixed to obtain the best quality and tonal separation.

The synthesizer sound modulates each tone so close when the sound peaks everything blends.


So you're saying they mixed the album wrong and it's not how they wanted it to sound? I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what they said.

I was saying the audio master needs to remixed to give the best quality and tonal separation for the audiophile version. The synthesizer sounds are too loud, even with the audiophile version.
EZ CD Audio Converter / FLAC or WavPack

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #18 –
Do you honestly believe that tonal separation is linked to the sample rate and bit depth when both already exceed the requirements for the music as it was mastered and your hearing capability?

That sounds like the same poppycock about specially mastering for lossy encoding:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....st&p=787986
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=94214

...and then there's this precious little gem of nonsense:
Quote
The synthesizer sound modulates each tone so close when the sound peaks everything blends.

I call bullshit.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #19 –
Quote from: greynol on
Quote
The synthesizer sound modulates each tone so close when the sound peaks everything blends.

I call bullshit.

I think the loudest instrument in the mix is modulating everything else a little - that's exactly what you'd expect dynamic range compression of the whole mix to do. It's got nothing to do with the audio format.

For nearly half a century, any music which didn't have at least a little of this effect hasn't sounded like finished pop music. It's ubiquitous. There are varying degrees of it.

I think pop music sounds very nice and pure and hi quality without it, but also "wrong". I guess my ears have been conditioned by every record I've ever heard.

Cheers,
David.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #20 –
I used to play a brass instrument a long time ago and when two instruments are slightly off on tuning you would hear a third tone or different modulation.
EZ CD Audio Converter / FLAC or WavPack

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #21 –
According to this database, the vinyl edition has the highest dynamic range; difference between the standard and "audiophile" versions is quite poor (DR 5 and 6).

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #22 –
Quote from: soundping on
I used to play a brass instrument a long time ago and when two instruments are slightly off on tuning you would hear a third tone or different modulation.

I'm quite familiar with the effect. I hear it whenever people whistle at concerts. I use it to tune my guitar.

Quote from: 2Bdecided on
It's got nothing to do with the audio format.

This.

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #23 –
The big problem is this NIN CD has no emotion. Hesitation Marks is Reznor's fat Elvis. Reznor is just coasting, he may have hit his peak.
EZ CD Audio Converter / FLAC or WavPack

Nine Inch Nails to release new album with audiophile mastering

Reply #24 –
Quote from: hlloyge on
I am not aware what NIN are doing these days, but when I listened to them quite a bit ago, they were some kind of industrial/noise mix. You really can't make quiet and/or dynamic recording in that genre.

EDIT: some dyslexic stuff


Aw, that's nonsence. You can make great dynamics in every genre.
Your statement is, as if one says in Jazz and Hardcore-Punk the note b never occures.
Dynamic is a fundamental element of music, which exists in all variations in
every genre. It's absolutely no problems to show you a song with great dynamics in
every genre.