Hey,
Up until now I have been using my Onboard Sound Card - ALC1200(Realtek). It suppose to be quite decent according to reviews (I'm mainly using it with Headphones).
More technical information about it can be found here (http://leijine.com/tips/ALC1200(Realtek)%20via%2047Amp.htm).
Recently I purchased a set of new headphones that comes with a USB Soundcard: Steelseries USB Dongle. Technical information can be found here (http://steelseries.com/products/audio/steelseries-siberia-usb-soundcard#specifications).
Few questions based on the above:
1. Is any one of them significantly better than the other (spec-wise)?
2. Does Onboard card getting Amp on the way out by the motherboard? What about the USB soundcard?
I tried to compare them using my ears, but the time it takes me to unplug and plug everything again (and change the output device in Windows) just takes too much for me to 'Remember' how to previous sounded. Or perhaps it just the difference was not that major for me to notice.
Thanks.
Without looking at the specs I would guess that both are more than adequate for your purposes, with one possible difference. With no music playing do you hear any extraneous noise at all? This sometimes happens with internal sound cards, but if you don't hear any then I would stick with the internal card.
Do a RMAA test with both of them. Also using different inputs (when you test the onboard output test it also with the Steelseries input in addition to the onboard input and vice versa), so that you can see which one is the bottleneck.
I think you can even test the RMAA performance with the headhpones load if you use a splitter (http://www.wannabargain.com.au/product_images/r/940/splitter__84983_zoom.jpg) on the output and plug the headphones in. Headphones tend to influence the frequency response, crosstalk etc.
Whether these tests translate into audible differences is, of course, a different question.
I tried to compare them using my ears, but the time it takes me to unplug and plug everything again (and change the output device in Windows) just takes too much for me to 'Remember' how to previous sounded. Or perhaps it just the difference was not that major for me to notice.
You are right... That's not the best way to do an AB (or ABX) test. It's also very important to match levels.
But if you can't hear an OBVIOUS difference, does it matter? If you use one sound card one day and a different sound card the next day and you don't hear a difference, does it matter?
Careful, scientific, double-blind ABX tests are important to prove that there
is an audible difference when people think they hear a difference. It's not so important to prove that you
don't hear a difference. Think about that... If I claim that I don't hear a difference, can you prove that I actually do hear a difference?
I agree with pdq. If you hear a defect from a soundcard, it's usually
noise. There's noise in every analog signal, but as long as it's below audibility in both cards you obviously won't hear a difference.
If the impedance is too high, you can get frequency response variations with the (relatively) low-impedance headphone-load attached.
If you like to listen loud, some soundcards put-out a higher level than others.
Not to create any big argument, but I see the most important use of ABX tests as being to decide that I really can't hear a difference when I know differences exist. Audio processing software often provides more than one choice for how to handle a problem. Quite often one, or more, of those ways is much less labor intensive than another.
Is the easy way good enough? Especially if I'm feeling lazy, can I depend on a simple AB comparison? If I don't want to have to take the hard way, it can sometimes be too easy to convince myself there isn't any real difference in results. Sometimes that is true, sometimes it is not.
As far as "does it matter?" goes, it may be not unlike those people who say "I can't really hear any difference at X quality level ... but I feel better if I use the higher quality Y settings. Even though a simple AB test doesn't seem to show me any difference, I'm frequently not satisfied with the easier approach if an ABX test says I can tell the sample apart, even if I'm not quite sure why I can.
But if you can't hear an OBVIOUS difference, does it matter? If you use one sound card one day and a different sound card the next day and you don't hear a difference, does it matter?
I think that's actually all that needs to be said
I'd second the advice to do an RMAA test. The quality of both is probably good enough that an ABX won't tell you anything. And yes, this does mean that it doesn't actually particularly matter and you can pick for convenience/features.
That said, the Steelseries USB thing looks like it's more meant to mangle the sound than anything (and that might be detectable in ABX).
If you do the RMAA, get RMAA 6.2.3, not 6.2.4 as the latter gives wrong results. Make sure the output levels for whatever device you are testing are set as high as possible, and input level low enough that it just doesn't clip in RMAA. Also make sure both playback and recording use the same format in the Windows Sound control panel (not only in RMAA), preferably 48kHz 24-bit.
The RMAA you posted for the ALC1200 isn't particularly good for a modern, built-in soundchip, so I suspect it might not have been done in optimal conditions. (Unfortunately I've seen shitloads of mainboard reviews with exactly the same problem )
I'm quite new to this, so let me know if I got that right:
I downloaded the 6.2.3 version as suggested and I'll start testing the Onboard Card First. I removed the Mic as I mainly care about the Out quality then In, and I prefer not to make everything more complex.
Few questions:
1. Should I plug my headphones to the 'Speakers' jack or to the dedicated Headphones Jack? or it shouldn't matter? Will it be OK to have both of them connected (Speakers and Headphones)
2. I set my Output to max (100) and disabled everything else (Mic, CD Audio, Line in). You mentioned the input level should be 'Low as possible' to avoid clipping. Does it mean I should enable those and set them to the lowest possible? (0 in the scale?)
3. The format set on my Onboard card is 24/192Khz, should I lower this to 24/48Khz? and if so, why?
4. Im using the Default Test-Scheme, is that ok?
5. I'm not sure if I'm using is Direct Sound or MME. I remember I was able to choose that prior to Windows 7 though.
When I select DirectSound with my Device (and MME Wave mapper is my only option on the recording), set 24/48Khz. Am I good to go now by clikcing 'Playback' only?
I'm quite new to this, so let me know if I got that right:
I downloaded the 6.2.3 version as suggested and I'll start testing the Onboard Card First. I removed the Mic as I mainly care about the Out quality then In, and I prefer not to make everything more complex.
Few questions:
1. Should I plug my headphones to the 'Speakers' jack or to the dedicated Headphones Jack? or it shouldn't matter? Will it be OK to have both of them connected (Speakers and Headphones)
Normally tests are done without anything connected but the necessary signal cables for running the test. No headphones, no speakers.
2. I set my Output to max (100) and disabled everything else (Mic, CD Audio, Line in). You mentioned the input level should be 'Low as possible' to avoid clipping. Does it mean I should enable those and set them to the lowest possible? (0 in the scale?)
Try some different output settings and see what works best. RMAA forces you to set the input control right. No clipping!
3. The format set on my Onboard card is 24/192Khz, should I lower this to 24/48Khz? and if so, why?
While some onboard cards will do *something* with a 24/192 file, I know of very few that will actually record a signal that high. Sample rates > 16/44 generally have no audible benefits. If an audio interface works better at some sample rate, its probably the lower one.
4. Im using the Default Test-Scheme, is that ok?
Yes.
5. I'm not sure if I'm using is Direct Sound or MME. I remember I was able to choose that prior to Windows 7 though.
Shouldn't matter if RMAA works at all.
When I select DirectSound with my Device (and MME Wave mapper is my only option on the recording), set 24/48Khz. Am I good to go now by clikcing 'Playback' only?
AFAIK there is no such thing as Directsound for recording. Its a playback-only feature. Make sure that all of your format settings agree.
If you do the RMAA, get RMAA 6.2.3, not 6.2.4 as the latter gives wrong results.
Could you please point me to a resource further explaining this problem? I'm having problems telling the forum search engine to look for the relevant thread, if it exists.
Edit: There is a bug-fix release available as of May 02 2012. Could it already resolve this issue?
get RMAA 6.2.3, not 6.2.4 as the latter gives wrong results.
What makes you say so? I did a quick test now and I got pretty much the same results.
Tall-Guy: generally, you don't need to do much from the default.
Connect the output to an input with a stereo cable. Select the in and out in RMAA and the sample rate and bit depth (also in Windows/driver settings) and then run Playback/recording. Adjust the levels if needed (it will tell you when it's ok), keeping in mind that highest software volume out should give the best result.
Connecting the headphones with a splitter to the tested output is optional, but if you're using headphones it makes sense to do it.
Well, everything just become much easier. I was boosting the volume all the way and I can hear annoying 'crackling' from the headphones Jack. That must be what you guys warned me about. Moreover, I found this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoZWwR_q99A) (the numbers are being showed at 1:50) - and it seems the USB is pretty decent. I guess i'll save me some RMAA education and stick with the USB.
One last question though, I have a three places to adjust the volume:
1. in Windows
2. On the USB Dongle itself
3. On the line between the 3.5 jack and the headphones themselves.
I should put the Windows and USB Dongle volume at max and just adjust the volume using the knob on the headphone?
1. Should I plug my headphones to the 'Speakers' jack or to the dedicated Headphones Jack? or it shouldn't matter? Will it be OK to have both of them connected (Speakers and Headphones)
2. I set my Output to max (100) and disabled everything else (Mic, CD Audio, Line in). You mentioned the input level should be 'Low as possible' to avoid clipping. Does it mean I should enable those and set them to the lowest possible? (0 in the scale?)
You need a cable that connects speaker out (or line out, should be the same) to line in. You should enable line out for playback at maximum volume (without amplification) and line in (and *only* line in) for recording. RMAA will allow you to tune the volume when you start the test, do this by gradually increasing the line in volume until it just doesn't clip.
3. The format set on my Onboard card is 24/192Khz, should I lower this to 24/48Khz? and if so, why?
Going higher than 48kHz is pointless but it shouldn't hurt either. Note that you not only need to set this in RMAA but also in the Windows Control Panel Sound configuration, for both recording and playback.
In Windows 7 this means Control Panel -> Sound -> Playback -> [device] -> Properties -> Advanced. Also make sure in Enhancements everything is disabled.
Then do the same for Sound -> Recording.
If you do the RMAA, get RMAA 6.2.3, not 6.2.4 as the latter gives wrong results.
Could you please point me to a resource further explaining this problem? I'm having problems telling the forum search engine to look for the relevant thread, if it exists.
Edit: There is a bug-fix release available as of May 02 2012. Could it already resolve this issue?
RMAA 6.2.4 has (or had) a bug that causes it to mark down every frequency response to "Very Poor", pretty much regardless of the actual result, i.e. even if its almost perfectly flat. It's possible the hotfix solves that as it appears to be published after I last used it.
You need a cable that connects speaker out (or line out, should be the same) to line in. You should enable line out for playback at maximum volume (without amplification) and line in (and *only* line in) for recording. RMAA will allow you to tune the volume when you start the test, do this by gradually increasing the line in volume until it just doesn't clip.
It basically means however I can not perform this test on the External USB Card? as It doesn't have Line in, but only out (and a USB).
Well, everything just become much easier. I was boosting the volume all the way and I can hear annoying 'crackling' from the headphones Jack.
You mean that your inboard sound starts to distort at maximum volume? Try the test with the line out, I'm guessing that when it's set in headphone mode it probably tries to amplify if you increase the volume and that is causing it to fail.
Moreover, I found this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoZWwR_q99A) (the numbers are being showed at 1:50) - and it seems the USB is pretty decent.
I'd be somewhat suspicious of that "review" [1] for several reasons:
a) All cards got exactly the same result. (within measurement errors)
b) The numbers are insanely good. I didn't even know it was electronically possible to get -133dB SNR out of a DAC unless the card is cooled to 0 Kelvin or something. Let alone a noise level of -200dB. Did they put it in a lead box to shield it from background earth radiation?
He's effectively saying that the SteelSeries USB is better than the RealTek HD (whatever model isn't mentioned) because it has -205.6dB stereo seperation instead of -204.1dB.
To explain how out of whack (or ridiculous) this is, allow me to compare. Stereo crosstalk for high end audio cards is usually around the 100-110dB mark. That is, when tested properly by someone who understands what they're doing, of course. Now, the 205dB result posted doesn't mean the card is twice as good. That's not how decibels work. This means the card would be about 57 THOUSAND times better.
My best guess at what happened here is that he used DIGITAL loopback, i.e. the DAC/ADC (essentially the soundcard) were not involved at all, and he basically just copied the audio data to memory and back. Which obviously gives exactly the same result regardless of the soundcard. This is a pointless test of course as you always need a DAC to convert the signal to something audible.
So, do yourself a favor and run a proper test. You're not going to reach the numbers posted. Probably not by a factor of 65000
It basically means however I can not perform this test on the External USB Card? as It doesn't have Line in, but only out (and a USB).
You can loop back the line output from the USB card into the line in of another soundcard. This will limit the maximum possible result to the performance of the second soundcard, though, so you'd typically want to use the best you can get your hands on and RMAA that first.
If you only have the built-in audio on your mainboard, you can RMAA that, and then use this set up to see if you get approximately the same result when you use the USB card line output into the mainboard line input. If the results are close, this means the USB is "no worse" than the mainboard.
So you can only see if the USB is worse or not worse. You can't measure if it is better.
Ermm, Im getting:
"PROBLEM: The input level is low. Try to increase recording or playback levels in your mixer."
My Line in volume is at max at the moment.
The setup:
Nothing connected to the onboard card besides a 3.5 Jack cable with one leg in the Line in, and the other side in line out (Speakers). Am I missing something?
Ermm, Im getting:
"PROBLEM: The input level is low. Try to increase recording or playback levels in your mixer."
My Line in volume is at max at the moment.
The setup:
Nothing connected to the onboard card besides a 3.5 Jack cable with one leg in the Line in, and the other side in line out (Speakers). Am I missing something?
Either the volume isn't actually at max, or you're attenuating the line in volume in Windows.
Found the issues. Next one :-)
PROBLEM: Inter-channel leakage in the recorded signal. Possible cause: connection cables, swapped channels.
By the way, It seems that on the LIne in I can only set 16 Bit and not 24 like the LIne out. Is that OK?
(http://i49.tinypic.com/16abfhl.jpg)
Thats the Onboard.
It's maybe farfetched, but I hope it's a stereo cable, and it's plugged in correctly?
By the way, It seems that on the LIne in I can only set 16 Bit and not 24 like the LIne out. Is that OK?
It will limit the best possible SNR results to 96dB, which reasonable onboard chips are able to reach.
Thats the Onboard.
Not bad, looks reasonable for a modern but relatively low end soundchip. Note that it's already 6dB better than the result you posted earlier. (i.e. twice as good)
Well, it's a 3.5 jack in both sides. Is that a Stereo cable? :-)
I just tried the USB Sound Card. I connected the Headphones slot (Out I guess) into the same Line in in the previous test (my Onboard Card). For some reason the Recording Level is very low, around 27dB, and that's with the highest recording level possible. Is USB sound card being handed differently?
OK. I'm recapping everything and adding information about the USB Sound Card.
Onboard Card:
http://i49.tinypic.com/16abfhl.jpg (http://i49.tinypic.com/16abfhl.jpg)
I wasn't able to level both right and left channels perfectly, but the difference was not that far away
Steelseries USB:
It gap between the Right and left channels were pretty big this time (around 2-3dB). In the Device settings (In Win7) there is an option called "Listen to Device" (under "Listen"). It playback the Line in back to the USB Soundcard. When this option was being checked, I wasn't able to reach -1dB. My only options were -3dB, or over clipping above 0dB. I decided not to over-clip and run the test with -3-7dB:
http://i48.tinypic.com/24pb3n6.jpg (http://i48.tinypic.com/24pb3n6.jpg)
With "Listen to Device" checked, with everything maxed out I was only able to reach to -5dB (same gap between channels again), but It the Recording Volume kept jumping Between -5dB and -26dB for some reason. Results:
http://i46.tinypic.com/34zzwv8.jpg (http://i46.tinypic.com/34zzwv8.jpg)
Well, it's a 3.5 jack in both sides. Is that a Stereo cable? :-)
Yes, the >80dB stereo separation you measured with the internal card clearly means that's fine.
http://i48.tinypic.com/24pb3n6.jpg (http://i48.tinypic.com/24pb3n6.jpg)
This is total failure. Basically signal in != signal out.
http://i46.tinypic.com/34zzwv8.jpg (http://i46.tinypic.com/34zzwv8.jpg)
This is closer, but the distortion values are extreme. Something is either clipping, or the soundcard is applying some effects to the signal or so.
OK. I found the problem. It seems like the problems only happen when I select Direct Sound. MME stop the issues I had. Any idea why? Do I need to configure the device differently due to that in windows?
Here is the results. Soooo, which one is better?
http://i46.tinypic.com/29wpee8.jpg (http://i46.tinypic.com/29wpee8.jpg)
OK. I did some homework and spent some time reading about the values and what they mean. I also bundled all the Results in one picture:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/fbyhxc.jpg)
Few things to remember:
* The USB Sound Card is connected to the Onboard Line in
* The Onboard Card has a Speaker jack in the back, and a Headphones jack in the front (I tested both as you can see above)
* For some reason, after a test or two - the Usb Dongle gets really hot. I tried to run the test on a 'cool' dongle vs 'heated' and results are the same (still wonder why its getting so hot though)
It seems that surprisingly the Onboard scored better on all field (correct me if I'm wrong). Guess I'll just connect the Headphones to the Onboard card.
It also seems like the 'Speaker' jack is better than the 'Headphones' jacks (except for THD?). And questions time again :-)
1. Why is Headphones jack preforming worse? Isnt it the same card at the end of the day?
2. Is the difference in the Headphones and Speakers jacks are big enough that I should only use the Speakers Jack?
3. In case the above answer will be using the Speakers Jack, I will probably need to buy (or make) a small box that let me switch between the Speakers and the Headphones easily without pluging/unpluging. Will that extension hurt the quality much? is it suggested at all?
4. I think someone mentioned previously that the USB Soundcard is probably also acting as an amp. Does the onboard card also amping the sound? should I worry about that?
5. The rule of a thumb will be always make sure the volume is highest possible on Windows 7 Mixer and adjust the volume to my need using the Speakers/Headphones built-in knobs?
Thank you!
Note that unless you're using an external amp you need to test with your headphones connected to get a reasonable idea how good the devices are driving a real load.
Note that unless you're using an external amp you need to test with your headphones connected to get a reasonable idea how good the devices are driving a real load.
How is it possible to test it with headphones connected? I have no option to plug those as I am force to connect the card out into the line in.
How is it possible to test it with headphones connected?
Wire cutters.
Well that or a splitter.
Take your pick.
So, here's the results when I add a Splitter to the out jack - one leg connected to the Line in and the other to the headphones.
No splitter:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/fbyhxc.jpg)
Splitter + Headphones
(http://i47.tinypic.com/35k90sh.jpg)
Seems like the results over the Headphones output has improved with the splitter...
So, here's the results when I add a Splitter to the out jack - one leg connected to the Line in and the other to the headphones.
No splitter:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/fbyhxc.jpg)
Splitter + Headphones
(http://i47.tinypic.com/35k90sh.jpg)
Seems like the results over the Headphones output has improved with the splitter...
I see differences, but unless I'm missing something, nothing significant. Am I missing some measurement that changed enough to be audible?
Your speaking about the changes between the USB Card and the Onboard card? or the Test with and without the headphones?
I'm not sure to be honest. I knew the Onboard results are better, but I'm not sure if the gaps are indeed audible or not.
Seems like the results over the Headphones output has improved with the splitter...
It's essentially the same within measurement error. I see the "you need a headphone amp" meme a lot, but what I haven't seen much is data supporting it. People who disagree are welcome (and encouraged) to prove me wrong.
From your data, the onboard is quite capable of powering the headphones without an amp.
So lets some it up:
Are the results supporting the use of a specific card or slot (Headphones vs Earphones jack)?
If not, I should probably stick with the USB Card, as it's easier to 'switch' between.
So lets some it up:
Are the results supporting the use of a specific card or slot (Headphones vs Earphones jack)?
If not, I should probably stick with the USB Card, as it's easier to 'switch' between.
Your onboard card with speaker out gives better quality than the headphones out or the USB card.
The difference is probably audible, but certainly not easily.
Your onboard card with speaker out gives better quality than the headphones out or the USB card.
The difference is probably audible, but certainly not easily.
Fair enough. I'll use this just to be sure. Is a cheaper switcher (so I can switch between the headphones and my speakers) will have a meaning on Quality?
EDIT: or even a splitter instead of switch...
The results between no splitter and splitter+headphones are very close.. I wonder if it was tested properly.
Did you turn on the volume on the headphones, did you hear the test signal?
Which headphones did you test with?
When I tested two soundcards, or actually an onboard and a powered mixer, the differences with headphones were significant. Stereo crosstalk was affected the most.
EDIT: Also, a tip: you can export the HTML report and upload it to something like Dropbox, which allows you to host HTML files (and the associated images).
By the way, your result on the headphone out being clearly worse than the speaker out surprised me, but I can confirm that my onboard soundcard (ALC898) gives similar results. This means that either:
a) The electronics powering the headphone port are generally of a lesser quality than the ones powering the speaker out, or they're designed to cope with higher output impedances at a cost of quality.
b) The headphone out tends to be connected by quite feeble wiring running quite some length in the computer case and passing all the other electronics in there. That could hurt. (The speaker out is probably better shielded as part of the mainboard PCB).
I'm less surprised about the onboard sound outperforming the USB card. The chipsets used in these have evolved over a number of years. They were initially quite horrible (old mainboard (http://sjeng.org/audio/K7S5A.html)), but gradually improved to things like this (modern mainboard audio) (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32496746/Audio/MSI%20Z77A-GD65%2048kHz.htm). The cost of development of these can be spread over many models and quite some quantity of boards as they're mass produced. Aside to that, better audio quality is nowadays one of the few remaining parts where a mainboard manufacturer can make a difference, and it's sometimes used in advertising. I'd also suspect the people designing the mainboards are quite capable of avoiding signal interference. Compare this to the USB card which is a free gadget you got with your headphones.
My speaker out also has no problems powering even high-end Sennheisers, though I don't have a splitter so I can't be sure that the audio quality drops if you do this - but given your result, I have no particular reason to suspect that.
(Edit: BTW, I can confirm that the "hotfix" for RMAA does solve the issue I described!)
Ermm, I'm not sure about the headphones Volume actually, It had a knob on the cable itself. Let me recheck it.
You were right Brand, the Volume on the Headphones itself as not at the max. When I tested it using the Speakers port, I wasn't able to reach all the way to 1dB (only around 2.5-3dB). It was possible with the Headphones port and most easily with the USB Card. Results below:
Without Splitter (same test, just a reference to compare):
(http://i46.tinypic.com/fbyhxc.jpg)
With Spliiter and Headphones:
(http://i45.tinypic.com/33zbwg8.jpg)
Does this chance the concept of which port I should be using with my headphones? (Because it seems like that for speakers, the normal our should still be the best).
Based on what I see here I'd probably choose the onboard headphones out. Although stereo crosstalk is significantly worse compared to the USB, which in turn has other problems, like high THD and IMD.
I actually don't know how bad THD and IMD are, in the audible sense. I'm guessing they, well, distort the waveforms, but I'm not sure if those artifacts are easy to spot or how to hear them, especially if they're not extremely high.. I'll let someone else comment on that.
As you probably noticed yourself, the volume on the headphones affects the performance. If you usually listen at, for example, half volume, you could also test them at that level and you could get more "practical" results.
Here are some results from an ALC898 (thanks to Case for running these):
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%20DZ77GA-70K.html (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%20DZ77GA-70K.html)
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%2...Headphones.html (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%20DZ77GA-70K%20Headphones.html)
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%2...0+%20HD650.html (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%20DZ77GA-70K%20+%20HD650.html)
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%2...20+%20K601.html (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%20DZ77GA-70K%20+%20K601.html)
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%2...20+%20K601.html (http://www.saunalahti.fi/~cse/RMAA/Intel%20DZ77GA-70K%20headphone%20out%20+%20K601.html)
The conclusion is the same: the output suffers from having to drive the headphones (300 and 120 Ohms respectively), but even so the speaker port does outperform the headphone out by quite a bit. I think this is a quite interesting conclusion!
Tall-Guys result is the opposite by a small margin, with the speaker out suffering more from having to drive the headphones.
I'm slightly surprised the results for the higher impedance headphones (HD650 at 300Ohm) are better than those for the 120 Ohm model (AKG K601).
Brand,
Yes - I hardly believe I'll be listen to Music with max volume (I could hear the RMAA tests clearly when the headphones were on the table).
Garf,
Just as a reference, It was tested using a 32 Ohm headphones.
Below you can find the results with 'Optimal' volume. On the Speakers output the Max was optimal. In the Headphones out and the USB Card I tweaked it down a bit.
It seems like the USB Card is performing much better with volume at 2/3 than max:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/4kh6ol.jpg)
Still, I'm assuming the Headphones Onboard port is still performing best?
I'm slightly surprised the results for the higher impedance headphones (HD650 at 300Ohm) are better than those for the 120 Ohm model (AKG K601).
High impedance == less load == easier to drive.
If you want to test a device, use 16 ohm headphones. That is where you separate good from bad.
Brand,
Yes - I hardly believe I'll be listen to Music with max volume (I could hear the RMAA tests clearly when the headphones were on the table).
Unfortunately, to do that measurement you'll need a preamp, or else an ADC with very large dynamic range. Otherwise, your measurements will probably be limited by the dynamic range of your line in.
Below you can find the results with 'Optimal' volume. On the Speakers output the Max was optimal. In the Headphones out and the USB Card I tweaked it down a bit.
It seems like the USB Card is performing much better with volume at 2/3 than max:
Yes, the results you posted above show massive distortion (look at the THD figures, anything near 1 is probably being overdriven, you were 10x that).
Still, I'm assuming the Headphones Onboard port is still performing best?
The headphone and USB output perform very similarly in that test, and both are probably good enough that your measurements are being limited by the sensitivity of the line in to at least some extent (which is a good thing). Unless one of them has some audible background hiss at regular listening levels (which RMAA will usually miss), I don't think there is a reason to prefer one over the other. I guess you could also try 16 ohm headphones and see if they load the devices enough to bring out some differences.
saratoga,
Would the Headphones port be more 'Safe'?
When the volume was around 2/3, the difference between the USB and the Headphones are indeed similar like shown below:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/4kh6ol.jpg)
But between 2/3 volume and Volume at max, the sound get very unstable on the USB Sound card compare to the Onboard Headphones port:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/4kh6ol.jpg)
What I meant by being 'Safe', is that some Audio will require me to play around with the Volume, this 'limitation' will make it unpossible to reach the unstable state. Right?
That in case that indeed there is no real benefit in using either the usb or headphones audio and quality wise.
What I meant by being 'Safe', is that some Audio will require me to play around with the Volume, this 'limitation' will make it unpossible to reach the unstable state. Right?
That in case that indeed there is no real benefit in using either the usb or headphones audio and quality wise.
Its not "unstable", you're just overdriving the output. Above some maximum volume it'll start to distort, and the performance gets worse. Does that distortion occur at a level you'd be comfortable listening to ? If so, then I would stick to the onboard. If its ear-splitting loud, I wouldn't worry about it.
It's not ear splitting, there is a good chance I'll reach there with a beer or two ;-)
There is some 'Noise' when no sound is being played on the Headphone Jack, but I don't think it's notice-able why Audio is being played. I'll test this again just to me sure.
Can I plug both my speakers to the out port and my headphones to the headphones port at the same time? or will it overload the onboard card and I should plug one in and disconnect the other?
It's not ear splitting, there is a good chance I'll reach there with a beer or two ;-)
Alright, then it sounds like it might be a little underpowered for you. Stick with the internal.
Can I plug both my speakers to the out port and my headphones to the headphones port at the same time? or will it overload the onboard card and I should plug one in and disconnect the other?
Some boards disable the other output when one is in use. You'd have to test it and see. I doubt you'll damage anything if that is your concern.
I prefer to have them both plugged in at the same time to avoid tearing the 3.5 jack after a while. Maybe there is an option to switch between the two outputs from the RealtekHD menu. Even if there is no loss in quality when both the Speakers and the Headphones are being used at the same time, I bet there is some processing power downgrade to it (which might be visible in CPU heavy tasks like Video Games).
There is a way to switch the outputs on/off in the Realtek HD Audio Manager (without physically unplugging), but it's not very intuitive, so I might as well save you the trouble of figuring it out:
1. Go to "Device advanced settings"
2. For "Playback Device" select the "Mute the rear output device, when a front headphone plugged in"
3. When you have both plugged in (rear output and front output) double click (or R-click) on the green circle to pop up "Device retasking" on either the Front Panel or Back Panel
4. To play through both, set both to "Front Speaker Out"
5. To disable one of them, set it to "Rear Speaker Out"
This works for me, but it could depend on the driver/device version..
It's working Brand, Thank you :-)
One last question before sealing this off. The Biggest plus of the USB Sound Card is the fact I couldn't hear any Static. I knew the static is pretty common on Onboard cards, and especially on front panel ports. It's only bother me when nothing is being playing (it's easy to detect when I'm scrolling with my mouse), even though - any easy way to fix it? I guess I'll have to play around with the wires for that?
Thanks.
It's working Brand, Thank you :-)
One last question before sealing this off. The Biggest plus of the USB Sound Card is the fact I couldn't hear any Static. I knew the static is pretty common on Onboard cards, and especially on front panel ports. It's only bother me when nothing is being playing (it's easy to detect when I'm scrolling with my mouse), even though - any easy way to fix it? I guess I'll have to play around with the wires for that?
Noise while scrolling the mouse is sometimes caused by bus contention for the video card. Seems like a leap -eh? The problem is that the video card actually has a big workload when superimposing the cursor on top of the desktop video. Of course the video card isn't supposed to do this, but stuff happens. Your choices are:
(1) Update drivers
(2) Go into video card parameters and reduce "hardware acceleration"
(3) Roll the dice and get a different video card.
Well, Drivers (Video and Audio) are already updated and getting a new Video Card is not an option yet
I'll try reducing the Hardware acceleration when I'm home to see if it works.
I can still hear static when I'm not touching the mouse though. Coming from the same issue?
When my little tripath amp was powered from internal PSU +12V line, I could hear (when put to max volume) mouse moving, letters appearing in a terminal, keyboard typing, HDD seeking. IMO the CPU interrupts put that much noise on the power supply line. After building a simple standalone +12V PSU the amp is dead silent now. My PCI soundcard (Infrasonic Quartet) employs multiple voltage regulators onboard, keeping the output clean.
IMO the problem is noise on supply lines generated by the CPU servicing USB interrupts.
OK. Solved.
What I did basically was to open the Case, and do two things:
1. disconnect the USB extension from the front panel (as It's running just near the Audio Cable and seems like it's causing some interference
2. Took a iron foil (If that's how it's being called in English), wrapped the cable up, and use a tape over it avoid anything touching the iron directly.
It seems like this was just enough shielding to make the crackling go away. So now I have a crackling free port with the best sound quality I could get from the gear I own. Thank you very much for your help guys, the experience was very educational